The Sage Steele Show - How an Amish Grandma Built a Pretzel Empire | The Sage Steele Show EP 121

0:00If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. Hi, I'm Sean Evans from Hot Ones and I want to tell you about YouTube Premium. It has offline downloads so you can watch without Wi-Fi. Background play, so you can lock your phone and it still plays baby. Oh, and it is completely ad free. Yes, I said it ad free. Try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com slash premium. How eligibility varies? Terms apply. Cancel anytime. And now, Helac versus AGI. A Splatero AGI gives you cash for a share of your home's future value. No monthly payments. A Helac is a traditional loan with monthly payments and strict requirements. Splatero for the win. Visit splint.com today and access your home's equity. You don't need to do this. I want to keep people hope. Everything has fallen in place for us to get from one farmer's market to 50 stores in about three years. Under 2200 stores and 28 countries. It's just a pretzel. I'm just saying it's miraculous.

1:02Let's start with tears. Why tears? What I know today is that life is hard and God is good. I'm not confused about that anymore. I made one choice. My whole world changed. It began on the inside. That choice to stay quiet. It's hard to tell a secret is very hard. There's the hardest thing I've ever done in my entire life. But it was the most powerful thing I'd ever done in my entire life. Why did you decide to tell Jonas? I couldn't take it anymore. Can I ask you what happened to that pastor? I'm going to have a special message from my viewers and it's about an athletic brand that is the only brand that's taking a clear stand for the protection of women's sports and fair competition. It's XXXXY. Yeah, no hedging, no apologizing. It's a full-throwed defense of biological reality and female athletes. So the founder is my good friend, Jennifer Say. She is a former world-class gymnast. She was a 1986 US national champion who was the first high-level gymnast to blow the

2:06whistle on systemic abuse in the sport. Gen has been fighting for female athletes for 20 years, even when it's hard. And this brand is the natural extension of that fight. XXXXY is premium athletic clothing. I have a ton of it here. Real training gear, not just statement twos, even though this is kind of awesome. I do love this one too. The red, white, and blue, of course. But shorts, tanks, leggings, bras, everything you actually need to train hard. And there's a ton of men's gear as well. And my husband loves it. Because men also care about fair competition and biological reality. You've probably already seen a lot of these shirts, especially recently at WNBA Games. The logo XXXY is so simple on this t-shirt that really started a thousand conversations that let you say exactly what you think without saying a word. Honestly, this is so simple. Female athletes deserve their own sports and their own spaces. They should not have to stand alone. So please show your support. Please don't keep buying from brands that refuse to stand up for women.

3:08We are the common sense majority. You will not be alone when you use your voice and stand up for women and girls. So wear the tee. Support the brand. Vote with your dollars. Most importantly, stand up for your daughter. Stand up for girls everywhere. Join the movement at XXXY athletics. You can use the code Sage for 20% off. Regular price items only does not apply to outlet or to bundles. XXXY, you will love it. I'm going to admit to you that I have been saying it wrong all these years. What have you been saying? I've been saying aunt Annie's. Everyone's laughing. When an actuality, it's anti-ant. Correct. If you look at this spelling sage, anti-ant would be appropriate. I am not offended. It's wasted. It never bothers me. It happens a lot. Okay. I'm going to blame my mother because that's what we do at all ages. We blame our mother, right? Of course. We were never allowed to say aunt. We always had to say aunt.

4:09But if you add the IE, auntie, and anyway, it took me seeing you speak and I was like, oh goodness, I've been saying it wrong this entire time. And lately, I've been trying to avoid auntie and airports because I mean, but I can never avoid it. The smell brings me as you've heard this forever. That's right. Whether you're hungry or not, you walk by and auntie and store, you smell it and you've just got to have it. I just, I know. I'm sorry. That's just sorry, not sorry. You're really not sorry. How, I mean, do you, does this mouth still affect you? Oh, I can. So, yes, of course, like in the airports, I travel quite a bit and I wonder is there any auntie? It's because we sold the company. Yes. So, I don't know all of the details about where we are and all the things, right? But so when I'm, when I go to the airports or even in a mall and I don't know for there, I just walk along and I have to be like, hmm, I smell auntie and so I just follow my

5:10nose and it takes me there every single time. Do you do it? Do you get it? Sure. Of course, I do. Do you name drop? Do I be like, that's me guys. I need my breath. Oh. Well, I don't name drop really because I don't need to. I just tell them who I am. And they believe you? Sometimes I do. Sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't. And the interesting part about our stories, sage, is that I'm very much alive and I know my story and I know how auntie has started and I'm assuming that everybody knows, right? But when we sold the company, the story of auntie and auntie, it became less important, you know? But for Jonas and I, my husband, we love telling the story because it's a God story. And it was never about, oh, wow, we're going to start this company and we're going to build it to a thousand stores and we're going to go all around the world and it was never about that. So everything that we did from the beginning to the time we sold it was so, wow, and

6:15we couldn't help but like tell the story. Yeah. And I've always said that auntie aunties is a modern day business miracle and a miracle simply means it shouldn't have happened. Like a miracle is like something that happens that's like unbelievable, right? And so we know auntie aunties is a modern day business miracle. Somebody told me one time, I don't believe in miracles after I told the story, you know? And I said, that's okay. I respect your opinion but I know from what's happening and how everything has fallen in place for us to give from one farmer's market to 50 stores and in about three years, I'm just saying it's miraculous. So. Yes. So, I think now it's just under 2200 stores in 28 countries. That's the numbers are probably right, yes. Insane. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a pretzel. I mean, so really, Jonas and I growing up in the Amish background, we had eight-thread

7:18education. I'm not ashamed of that. It doesn't matter to me. It's our story. But neither one of us knew anything about business. So Jonas had little body, shop, he grew up on the show, horse and bug, Yamish. And that's 16, he didn't want to car, he didn't want to horse and bug, he told us that he wants horse power. Is that said, if you want a car, well then you got to go to somewhere, you got to go buy your own car. So Jonas went and bought a car at a junkyard and repaired it and he became a mechanic. Ended up years later living in Austin, he became a, he was one of the best bodymen, the best horse, also a bodyman, preparing cars. And he did anything from a junk or pickup truck to a Mercedes-Benz, whatever. He got very, very good at what he did. So he did that, but we never owned our own company. So can you say, I guess it's the four words, if I can count and spell on the same day, it's

8:22just a pretzel. Well, somebody would say, no, it's not just a pretzel, I mean I've said that many times, and people, it's not just a pretzel, it's an anti-hand pretzel. I'm like, oh, you're right, it isn't just a pretzel. If you could think of one word to describe your journey, which we're going to get into, your journey from that little Amish girl to today and having lived a modern day business miracle with ups and downs throughout, what's that word? Tears, struggles, amazing God's faithfulness, that's four words, there's a whole lot more, but I'm sick and do your question. Let's start with tears, my tears. Well, so growing up in the culture I grew up was very simple, it looks idyllic to a lot

9:24of people. You don't know what you don't know, right? So there are eight of us kids on the farm, and life was really, really good. My role on the farm was picking, helping mom in the kitchen, picking and helping with the meals because I was the only one of eight kids that had allergies. I loved that, my mom was a kind of... She was an amazing mom, she would let me do anything in the kitchen without ever raising her voice, without ever criticizing me or without... I can't explain, she taught me without almost like without words, but her role modeling was steady and consistent and I think the most beautiful part when I think of, even as a little girl, when I think back on that, there was a lot of tears, but when I think about

10:28that time in my life, I can choke up because mom and my dad were always there. I mean, can you imagine life where mom and dad are always there? Dad was on the out in the fields or in the barn, mom was in the house every day when we came home from school, they were there. I just feel like that was the best kid they could have given us. So sitting around the kitchen table three times a day without fail, never started eating until everybody's seated. With some of the details, I think, and the structure that we had, it was normal, never would I didn't know about anything else, right? So but when I think about that, it really made me, told me, made me who I am today. We started Anteans, life from that moment on, I should say married Jonas when I was 19

11:37years old, but that's the norm for Amish people. When I tell people, I was married at night, they're like, oh, wow. No, it was so, we were raised to get married and have families and so it was the norm is still pretty much the norm among the Amish culture. So Jonas and I got married, we had the same dreams, all we dreamed for was to have a family, have our own family and serve God and serve the community and that was it. And so that's what we did and we got married. It was a happy day. He had just lost his brother, he was killed instantly, his older brother and about a year before, I think it was about a year before we got married. So during that time, Jonas himself, he changed from this happy, good lucky. He and his brother were like two peas in a pod, they were always together. So when that happened with his brother, I wasn't sure if I could marry this man because he got so quiet and so he changed.

12:41But I stuck with him and I had no idea how good this man was. He was nothing like my dad. My dad was, oh wow, what's the word for him? He was just a risk taker and hard worker and kind of ramyun, sort of, but he was also very outgoing, never been a stranger. So my dad was, he was a great dad, but Jonas was the opposite. Jonas was very quiet and I always thought, wow, is this really how he is or I don't know. It was so unusual. So when he got married and life is good and we had our two daughters at that time and started, went from an amish to amish men and I church then we went to actually built a church. It sounds like we can't go into all that, but we actually helped build a church on our

13:41farm. My dad gave us some acreage to build a church. We did that very exciting time, a little bit like when you discover a new relationship with Christ. It was, we went from an amish and this culture very stoic and very religious and good people and I found Jesus in that culture, but it wasn't the relationship that I discovered when we built his church. So it was good and I hadn't cried a lot. There was life, nothing really happened, nothing bad except when his brother was killed, that was a very sad time for us. And so when I talk about tears, that happened after we got married and our two girls were our life and we were very involved in the church and I believe that if I'm a good girl, then God would bless me. If I'm a good girl. If I'm a good girl. What does that mean? It meant for me what it meant was if I keep all the tent commandments, that shall not go

14:42down the list and I do everything just right. It's not like I was in the straight jacket trying to do everything right. That sounds like maybe that's what I was saying, but it was just the belief that I had if I just obeyed mom and dad and I please God and I'm a good girl. God will bless me. What I know today over seven decades later is that my belief at that time was God is life is hard. Life is good, God is harsh. That's what I really truly believed. Today what I know is that life is hard and God is good. I'm not confused about that anymore. That's a solid foundation you can build your life on. How do I know that? When did that change for you? My theology changed from what I just mentioned after the tragedy and the traumas that we

15:45went through. Our daughter, 19 month old, Angela Joy, was 19 months old and we lived on the farm with my mom and dad in a double white trailer. We're just a very close-knit family. My sister worked for my father loading and unloading sand for his stone business. Every morning my sister would look around and make sure the girls were not around. She was very careful. One morning she looked around and see if anybody was there and Angela had already walked up right behind the back of the pop cat, which was a front end looter. And she backed up the pop cat and she went to move it forward. And she saw that she had run over Angela accidentally. And she was killed instantly that day. 19 years old. Just a baby. Yeah. So. Fall is here and if you want to feel your best heading into the colder months, not just bundle up and hope you don't get sick, it starts with your gut.

16:48Yes, cold and flu season right around the corner. Everybody around me starts dropping like flies and I used to just accept that as part of the season, but not anymore. September hit and I got back into a routine and the one habit that's made the biggest difference is this. Once I fixed my got everything changed, my digestion, my skin, my hair and how well I hold up when everybody else is sniffling. The one thing that made the biggest difference is cowboy colostrum. I take it in the morning and I've noticed healthier hair, more energy since I started. Here's why fall is the time to start. Custrum is the very first milk and it's rich in bioactive like immunoglobin and growth factors. That's your immune systems front line going into cold and flu season that is exactly what I want working for me every single morning. So today's sponsor cowboy colostrum offers the highest quality bovine colostrum available in the US as 100% made in America from 100% American grass fed cows. Unlike other colostrum brands, cowboy is true first day whole colostrum.

17:48For a limited time, our listeners and viewers get up to 25% off their entire order. Just go to cowboycolostrum.com and use the code sage at checkout. That's 25% off when you use the code sage at cowboycolostrum.com. I remember hearing you tell part of this story. Where were you at that moment when it happened in my house or you mean actually, physically where I was? So we had a group of singers that our church that day, teen challenged singers and we invited some of them to spend the night at our home. So I was busy making breakfast and serving them and as they were leaving, my husband was taking it back to church. Angela was we were all just kind of there in the front door at the house and as they were leaving, I realized that Angie snuck past me and she was gone up to my mom's house which we lived a few hundred feet from their house.

18:49And I'm standing there and I watched her go and I thought maybe I should call her back. She hadn't changed her. It was a hectic morning at the house and I hadn't changed her diaper or even her PJs that morning which is very unusual. So I'm standing at the door and thinking, oh, I should call her back and call her back or do I want to clean out the kitchen and tell mom that she's coming up there. So I'm like like that and so I decided, now how call mom? She's tell her she's coming and I picked up the phone at the wall phone at our house and I went to call mom and before I even dialed her number, I heard this horrible shrieking screaming and I stopped right in that moment and I just stopped at her my tracks and I just said not Angie. And I the mama hardy me knew that she was I just knew she was gone. I can't explain that but if you have kids you understand, you know where they're at and

19:49how they're doing that's just as a mother's intuition right. And in that moment I just knew that's your sister's scream. And my father was watching and my our youngest daughter, our four year old daughter as well. But my dad was screaming really loud because he was trying to, he saw it happen and he was trying to get my sister to stop. And you know through the years sage I thought the worst thing about that day was losing Angie. But as time has gone on and I realize that tragedies come in many different forms right. And I think that the greatest tragedy that day was my sister. She it was unbelievable. I mean he's an accident you know.

20:51And Angie was like her favorite little girl because she would often she would pick her up and put her on the sheet, his tighter on the bobcat. And he's what you do on that farm is farm stuff you know. And she was going to be married in about six weeks after that and Angie was going to be a flower girl at the wedding. So I think that we misunderstand the impact and the depth and also the length of time you know that that goes by when you experience the trauma and tragedy. And often which sometimes that fire has sold her story her name is fire my sister and we've done a couple of times when she'd be on the set with me somewhere or whatever. It's powerful because it helps people understand oh no no you don't get over this. It's not like and you can't pray the right prayer you can't. It's a very very difficult experience and for my sister she would tell you and it's

21:53in one of my books and she would tell you that after that happened she ran. She doesn't really remember running but she just ran and they found her out in the meadow in some weeds or whatever and but she remembers clearly in those sitting there in that position. Somebody in the audience understands what I'm saying. She made up her mind that she's going to put all of my feelings in a mason jar and put the lid on it and never open it again. And she did. Yeah. My point in all that was my tragedy it was hours I should say was that's when the tears

22:55started for me and the tears were obvious. But more than the loss of Angie it was Jonas and I began to like we just couldn't connect anymore and we were very close and the tears were because. I missed Angie. I missed her so much but then even more was my sister. So it was just like everything there's more than just the accident. Yeah. So much more. You know so it's your emotions and what do you do with it? It's all stupid. I mean I don't want anything about crying it too I can't breathe. I don't even know what it means that not want to get up in the morning and do my, be a mom. All everything is new when you experience tragedy and so for my sister eventually years

23:57and years years years like 45 years later she finally. She called for some helping up married six weeks later. But to think that helped her more than anything 45 she married had two handsome dudes sons and they got married and five is always very friendly. She would remind you if you know lady love Smith. She would remind you of lady love Smith always laughing always eager to be nice and always kind and just life was it looked on the outside like her life was okay and nobody ever asked her. No one asked her. Everybody was concerned about us. Of course the mother the father with two other babies and nobody ever asked her what it was like for her. Can you imagine I mean I understand that but I didn't even think about that that day. When did you first ask her how she's doing how she's handled things.

24:59That's a really good question because back in the day we weren't like how are you doing different now. Very different. Her and I spent a lot of time together like I never right away at the very beginning when we came back from the clinic after Angela was pronounced dead. When back to the house where mom and dad were close by to each other so walked into my mom's house and mom met me there at the end of the walkway and just said five things that you hate her. She thinks you're angry at her and I'm like well I didn't even think about that until in that moment. In that moment sage I knew I had to be strong for her. I didn't resent that but I knew I had to be stronger. I walked into the living room and she was sitting in a fetal position on the couch in my mom's house with a pillow holding a pillow above her head like just covering her face.

26:08And I'll never forget the moment. Why am I telling you this? Because people experience these kinds of emotional feelings and they think they're going to be in that moment forever. There's no way out. I'm here to say there's tears and there's suffering and there's impossible. You think it's impossible. You really do. It's real. Anyway so that day I snuggled in and we'd find out but mom around her and she pulled the pillow down. Her eyes looked like I've never seen anything. It was complete. She's wild. I didn't even know what to do with it. And I just put more around her and I said it's okay by it's okay. It's okay. I said it was an accident so I said I know that fine.

27:12It's okay. That's all I could say to her. And Anjona was there. At one point he just told her we don't. We had his very short conversation. I can't remember exactly the details but he said to her fight. We don't hold this against you and we don't even have to forgive you because we don't hold it against you. It was an accident. So that's the way we left it. I mean it was true. I wasn't like pretending. I was like being strong. No. It was real because she's my sister. I loved her. I mean I could never blame her. I couldn't have done that to her. How are you two today? Over fine today. And when she started EMDR many years later, 40 years later probably. That's when she began the breakthrough. And until then we would talk about Angie as occasionally and you know as the years went by.

28:13But we had his very, I would say, drama bonding. You know, like is that's, we were always close. But that was, that's a whole other level of bonding. And but in the meantime you're trying to make her feel less guilt. You're trying to be a wife still and certainly be there for your husband. You both are mourning together and you're trying to be a mother. You have two daughters, two other daughters. How had a baby nine months, ten months later? She had an older, older than this. And then how did a baby after that? So that's when the tears began. And so I thought I would never stop crying, you know. And but I couldn't really talk to anybody. I don't know. That's just the way it was. And you know, I think that's, that's a very important point out because today, I mean,

29:16everyone puts their emotions, they'll take their phone and stay on their camera and let thousands of people potentially see it. It's like every, it was the opposite. It was the opposite for me. Yes. It was where you aren't supposed to talk about your feelings or your emotions. You just trudge forward, right? It was never said, don't talk about your feelings or emotions, but it was just a, it's the culture we lived in. And it's also very, it's a human being. It's humans have a really hard time talking about, well, you're talking about Facebook and all those things today, which is, I mean, maybe that's healthy. I'm not sure, you know, it's probably better than not saying anything. But you know, to really talk about your feelings in a meaningful way, in a very constructive, in a very healthy, you know, in a setting where you can talk about your feelings and you have someone on the other end helping you understand what's what you're feeling.

30:16And that, I found that in therapy that many years later, you know, but just a spill and go to the bar and tell everybody about what's happened and that's really not what I'm talking about. So there is a way that we've discovered to be able to talk about how you're feeling but it is so hard to be raw and real. And I can, I've written a book called Secret Lies Within. And then what compounded everything for us was when my pastor invited me to his office to, he said, just come over to the office tomorrow morning and we'll talk. I was like, wow, somebody notices that I'm not okay. This was like three, four months after though. And he passed away. And so I was looking forward to that. And so I went to his office and we talked and before I left his office, he took advantage of me. I walked out the door. I'm like, wow, I didn't understand abuse. I never even, I was never talked about.

31:19But I knew what he did was inappropriate and I knew I had to keep it a secret because he told me I needed to. In an effort to lower beef prices, 300,000 metric tons of foreign ground beef are about to flood the US market without the normal tariff. And when that beef reaches grocery store shelves, you may have no way of knowing if it came from another country. For beef, you can trust that supports American ranchers shop good ranchers. They are the number one company delivering 100% American meat to your door. Good ranchers partners with over 100 local farmers and ranchers to deliver 100% American meat straight to you. It's pasture raised, has no antibiotics, no added hormones. They are the number one option for American meat delivery with over 25,000 five star reviews on Trust Pilot. So Dave and I get a box delivered every single month and it is so convenient. It always tastes awesome. We are eating. We are choosing to eat healthy American beef and chicken multiple times a week. For limited time, you can get a free ground beef bundle with your first good ranchers order.

32:234 pounds of 100% American Angus ground beef to help stock your freezer. Just visit goodrangers.com slash sage to claim your ground beef bundle for free. And when you start a plan, you are going to get free meat with every order. Remember that is goodrangers.com slash sage for your free 4 pound ground beef bundle. Goodrangers.com American meat delivered. Wait, so you, your pastor calls you, you heard the news through town about what happened. He was our pastor and so I went to church. And then so you were there anyway, right? Yes, I was part of the church that we said. So someone that you knew and trusted. Oh, absolutely. And he called and said, come see me. Sure. And you went to the church. And we talked for probably about an hour and in that conversation, I was very confused because he told me that nobody would understand. And I believe that anyway about me because I'm like, I can't talk to him. But no one knows how I feel.

33:24Nobody understands. Nobody understands. This whole, I don't know how to talk about it. So when he said that, you know, I'm really the only one that can understand and can help you. Like, wow, that was appealing to me. And you're how old, by the way. At that time, I was 27. And so walking out the door, his office, I, this is what I, this is probably one of the most important things that I can talk about is the power of choice. And I walked out that door and I decided that I would never tell anyone. First of all, who would listen? Who cares? Who would believe? So in my mind at that time, I felt like there's almost a godly or spiritual decision. Don't talk about it. I had no idea that that one choice I made. This one is kind of like Adam and Eve in the garden.

34:27They made one choice. Their whole world changed. I made one choice. My whole world changed. It began on the inside. Like, wow. That choice. To stay one choice. Absolutely. If I would have gone home and told Jonas, I would have a very different story today. Like tell your secret. You can't. So there's a line that many years later on my psychiatrist, a Christian man that we got to, we met and got to know. And he became my, wow, he helped me so much. And there's one line that he used that so resonated with me when I first went to see him. He said, Satan builds his strongholds. First of all, my secret became my stronghold. What is his stronghold? It holds you. It's strong. It holds you. You can't move forward. A stronghold is something that will keep you enslaved. And so Satan builds his strongholds in the secrets of your life.

35:36And then he reinforces that by silence. Don't talk about it. But when I break this silence, I break this stronghold. And that's a very biblical concept. It's all throughout the Bible. But the verse that really speaks to me about that subject is, and I believe for seven years in this dark place of abuse, for it kept me there seven years, never told anyone. It was, my secret was my stronghold. Would you continue to see the pastor? Oh, sure. Because you're at church. Yeah, of course. I mean, you're never, he never abused you again. Oh, no, it was ongoing abuse of every kind. For almost seven years. Yeah. Mental. Sexual. Sexual. Everything. So I went from a happy little Amish girl. Being married to a wonderful man, having two girls living my dream in a Christian home to a world that I knew nothing about.

36:48And I've always said, the abuse, that secret took me into the dark. It took me into the dark world. And Satan gave me every tool that there's nothing new, nothing new. He does the same thing that every, it happens to everybody when we decide to keep secrets. I mean, it would depend on whatever, but for me, the secret was life or death. It became life or death for me, like because I couldn't move forward. This secret was my stronghold. During that time, sage, my survival was never telling anyone. I you can't ever tell anyone. So there are three things that I learned since that time, but at the very end of that. I've always said, I prayed my way through seven years of crying. I mean, I cried every day for about seven years. And then, and then after that. But I believe that God would just somehow make it all go away.

37:49Like that he would deliver me, deliver me. Like, David, you read the book of Psalms. Like, deliver me. And I believed that God would deliver me. And then I began, so prayer was my confession was the one type of confession to Jesus. And the second type of confession was journaling. No, I'm sorry. Praying. Bedside prayers. Journaling. Yes. The second type of confession was, I began to write. That's really scary. If you want to be real. Yes. You look at that and you're like, did. Is this really what I feel? Well, if you're real, it's shocking. What you begin right down. And then the third type of confession is the one to another. Found in James 516.

38:49If you confess your false, the verse starts with that. If you confess your false, what to know is what I'm doing right now. If you do that one to another and pray, you'll be healed. I didn't know that person at that time. But I prayed, I journaled. And about seven years later, I went and told Jonas about my secret. I broke the stronghold that day. You go, when you break the stronghold, when you begin to tell, when you tell somebody you're deepest, darkest secret, you can't tell them all at once. It's too much. But for me, seven years, almost seven years of abuse. During that time, I found out he was impusing my two sisters. What? And two of my friends at the church, all of them. Somebody was silent. Everybody was silent. Right. And we were all dying. I was dying a little bit every day. And the tragedy is not in dying.

39:50Like for reals dying. That's not the tragedy, but what dies inside of us while we live. And I was dying on the inside out, from the inside out. I was weight 92 pounds for, I don't know, a number of years. It felt like taking my life was really the answer. Because I'm not being a good mom, I'm being a horrible wife. Oh, I'm going to church. And you ask me how I'm doing. I'm doing just fine. It's so crazy when I say that now. But that's true. That's how, that's what trauma and tragedy can do to you. Because you isolate. But what I know right now, I know this now. It's instead of isolating. It's just like run toward the light, run towards somebody that can just run. Do something. But don't isolate. I lived in a small, we lived in a small home at that time. And I always kept all the curtains full. I didn't, I wanted my house to be dark. And there's never any light in my home.

40:51I mean, but. Secret really grown the darkness. Absolutely. Why did you decide to tell Jonas? I couldn't take it anymore. I became just, I. And what triggered that was. I found out about my sisters. And then I got really angry. But we still couldn't really like talk about it to each other. And Jonas still didn't know. I mean, it was all kind of. But then that just began to bubble up. And so in short. The room was started happening. And very quickly it spread like wow, I went through the church and I told Jonas because I didn't want somebody else to know. I didn't want someone else to tell him before I told him. So that's why I told him is out of desperation. I had no idea. I didn't understand the principle of secrets or. The power of confession or. I didn't know.

41:51I just knew. It's like Holy Spirit just was very clear. Get up. And go tell. Like that was my only option left. Get up. And go tell. What am I going to say? I don't know. I couldn't even talk. My vocabulary had just been down to. You know, we're talking about the weather. We're talking about the kids. Between Jonas. I mean, there was a very little conversation between us. There's nothing to say. And I'm going to tell Jonas. About my life. I did. Holy Spirit within us. He never left me. But you know, that's the truth. And his. I had to make a choice. So one choice I made took me into the dark world. And kept me there enslaved. And the choice I made that morning, opened up the door to the light.

42:52I love a verse in part. says, walk in the light as he is in the light. And then you will have fellowship with another. And then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. I didn't know that day that I was opening up the door to light. I just knew in my desperation, Holy Spirit compelled me to tell to him. So I gave him a two-line confession, very simple. That's all that was inside of me. I couldn't. I didn't cry. I didn't yell. I didn't ask him to forgive me. I didn't say, I love you. I just said to him, you heard about the rumors at church and of a woman. Yeah, I went to his body shop where he was working. And he shook his head yes. And I'm like, I wanted those women.

43:54That's all I said. And the look on his face was, I can't describe it. But I couldn't bear to look and in hug him. I didn't touch him. I was a shell. There was nothing left inside of me. I had no idea that day that that little hard small confession would be the beginning of a a new life together, not overnight. It took us years, took Jonas Night years, to become friends again and be a family again. And I never get a cameo that day from the body shop. And I was so nervous because I couldn't believe I told him and I couldn't believe the look on his face. I couldn't believe it. I just walked away and left him standing there. So to be real is hard. To tell his secret is very hard. It was the hardest thing I'd ever done in my

45:03entire life. But it was the most powerful thing I'd ever done in my entire life, to change the course of my life. And so I go home and I wait for him to come home from work. And I knew, oh, one of the lives was at St. told me, if you ever tell Jonas, he'll divorce you. Come back from the omission to the men in the background. It didn't happen a lot, but I was so bad. The things that I, three things I knew about me, I hated me. I hated who I'd become. I knew that I was unlovable. I knew I was unforgivable. Unforgivable. And I knew I was unchangeable. I am stuck in this place. Nothing will ever change. And if I do tell Jonas, then he'll divorce me. So when I'm waiting for him to come home that day, I'm waiting. I mean, the girls are in school. I'm alone in the house. I go pick up the girls. He's still at home. He comes home. I think it might

46:09be around five o'clock or six. I'm not sure what time it was, but it's all day I'm waiting for him to come home thinking where in the world is he. And so he walks in the door. And he just said, uh, hun, we need to talk. And I said, um, about what? I said, oh, I could say that's, but I said about what? I mean, that's how proken I was. There's nothing left. And I was scared to death. He was going to divorce me. And he said, well, you know, what you told me today. He said, I, I, I knew you weren't happy, but I thought it was because of of Angie. But I do want you to be happy. But he said, promise me one thing. And I said, well, I'll try. He said, promise me that you won't leave. Promise me you won't leave me in the middle of the night with the note on the dresser.

47:17So just promise me that you, you'll help me if you want to go. Then I'll help you. This is let me know. I'll help you. Well, I help you find a place. I'll help you pack what you need. But if you go, you have to take the girls. Because the girls need their mom. Well, well, it's kind of like I didn't know at the time, but that was like he believed in me. It was the voice of hope that was beyond anything I would have ever imagined. But in that moment, I knew that I had believed that lie. I wasn't sure that we wouldn't divorce because it was so hard. And if you haven't communicated for six, seven years, it's like you don't know what to say. Where do you start? So he started conversation.

48:21But it ran about way telling me that he believes in me. So there's really a lesson in that. When you tell somebody that you believe in them, like no kidding, I believe in you. You don't say it that way. But when they have, they don't have a shred of confidence in themselves. It was unbelievable to me that he would actually say that. I can't remember the rest of it. He said, when the girls go to bed, we'll talk. And so anyway, that was the beginning of my comeback. Bring, walk in the light as he is in the light, as Jesus is in the light with his father. Then you have fellowship. Sage, I had no idea in that moment. We were starting to live out that verse. Walk in the light and then you will start to connect. And then you'll start to have fellowship like you actually. And then you begin to feel clenched.

49:30There's a cleansing. So it all started with that one, two sentence confession. Today, you know, it passed forward. We stumbled our way through a couple of years of just, he just, he had made a call to a counselor at that time. That day, he called the counselor and told him what happened. He said, Jonas, he said, I can't make any false promises for you, but he said, you have two options. One is you can either leave your wife or you can love your wife like Jesus loves you. He didn't say like Jesus loves that church. He told Jonas, you can love your wife. If you can love and like Jesus loves you, there's hope for your marriage. And I don't know about that whole conversation. I'll ever get some of it with the counselor, but how do I do this? And Holy Spirit will teach you.

50:38It's supernatural kind of love that we don't wait for or we don't, we don't store, engage in that a whole lot. You know what I mean? Yeah. We have our ways. We have our things that things that we do to overcome. We make choices to work around things. But loving me as Jesus loved him. Unbelievable. And he never told me that. He never told me that for a couple of years. And he would always wonder, is it helping him? I'm doing, is it working? One day my sister or a fight called me in a phone in the kitchen, in a long court, all the way back in the hallway. So I picked up the phone and went back in the hallway and talked to her. I just said, how are you doing, Anne? So we talked a little bit, you know, and they just said, well, how's Jonas doing? And I said to her, and this was probably, I don't know, maybe a year later. And I said, I don't know what it is about Jonas, but it's something about

51:44his spirit. I just want to be with him. Wow. Maybe he heard me say that. I didn't know he heard me. He thought he'd be jackpot that day. So, you know, I think, I don't know what the most important message is here for your Lister. Oh, well, many. I just feel like often as believers, we have the followers of Christ. We have this kind of in the box kind of thinking, you know, we have our little cliches, our little sayings, our little lines, our verses, our favorite, you know, all those things. And all that's a part of following Christ. But I think when we find ourselves in Mirage of Paul, and you've had experiences of your own that we're hard to get through in, everybody bases that. I'm here to tell you, I hear the people's

52:44stories sage that I'm like, wow, I'm blown away that they survived and they got through it and that, you know, so it's up, we're not here to compare stories, but I think we're here to share our stories. Yes. To just be real open and honest. But not everybody is able to do that. I know. And to share what you are sharing, especially from where you came, where you don't talk about anything, Angie, and then the abuse. I mean, this is a true, this is a miracle. It is for you to have the strength, encourage, to share knowing how painful it is every time I can only imagine. That's why I'm so grateful. But knowing that you're helping people that you'll never meet, ever just by by sharing. By being vulnerable and sharing your pain, your struggles, your fears, your shame. Shame. Oh, do we have another a couple hours? Yeah, it's a word I'm very familiar with. And it's doctors told Alba pregnancy

53:51was impossible. Her husband's diagnosis confirmed it. A child of their own simply wasn't going to happen. Then the impossible did happen. Alba was pregnant. We might call it a miracle, but to Alba, it didn't feel like one. That positive pregnancy test felt like a mistake. A cruel twist of science she didn't understand or want. Nothing added up to her. She had accepted that pregnancy wasn't possible. This baby was never planned. Suddenly, Alba was confused, afraid, and overwhelmed. What should have felt like a miracle felt like a crisis to her? Then she walked into a pre-born network clinic. She was welcomed with compassion and given a free ultrasound. And when she saw her baby and her that tiny heartbeat, everything changed. Fear gave way to hope. Alba chose life. Today, baby Laura is healthy and thriving. A reminder that when God is writing the story, impossible doesn't get the final word. Right now, another mother needs that moment. You can give it to her. Just $28 helps provide one potentially life-saving ultrasound. $140 helps rescue five babies. So please give

54:55today a dial pound 250 and say baby. That's pound 250 say baby or visit preborn.com slash sage preborn.com. slash sage. And what I have found and talking to other people as well, because everyone has things they're ashamed of. And we rank them and that's not fair. Who are we to say, well, that's worse than this or this isn't as bad. I mean, um, chambers. Right. But when you do share, wow, it's them. I imagine the number of people who have come to you, or you've heard from in person or online, what your story has done for them to help them. Whether it's with the loss of a child, abuse at the hands of someone you trust. That can be anything. All of it. It's so many things. Can I ask you what happened to that pastor? Sure. Sure.

56:00And and was I one of the, oh yes, yeah. So he was abusing that after the death of Angie. He started both of us after the death. Yeah, sort of abusing, but we didn't. These are one of us new for the first seven years. Oh yeah. Same amount time. This is a true evil soul. Yes, it is. Mm hmm. It happened. It is so hard. So what we're trying to unpack here is, uh, it's deep as hard as long as life changing, you know. Um, so years later, we then found out our daughter was abused by him as well when she was 25. She told us we didn't, our oldest daughter. And we didn't know that. So she would have been like four, maybe five. I don't know. It was during the same time, but I had no idea. Neither one of us. I mean, I mean, I'm in my own pain. Are you kidding me? I, I didn't notice. And that's the other thing. Regret and shame and abandonment that I, that my daughter is experiencing. So I'm saying,

57:00we're, there's a whole lot in this story that I'm not just telling the story for this take of, oh, I want to, I want to know, I'm telling the story because I know, um, the power of telling your story. So my encouragement is, I know how hard it is. So it's not like, oh, go tell your story. It's that, I don't know. I just know that if you find yourself in this very dark place, you think life is over to the point where you want to take your life. That you really believe, I thought my life was over at the age of 30, 35. Nothing left to look for. I'm done. I've made my life. So I digress her just a little bit. We were talking about fire and taking it back to where we were from. Well, I had asked what happened to this evil back. Yes, correct. Yes. Yes. So when we fell out about our daughter and she, I had no idea. This was 20 years after the fact, about 20 years,

58:07eight, 17 years probably. And she told us about this. I completely lost it. I felt like I was being raped, abused, all of it, all over again. I felt like it was happening to me again. It's so weird, but it had happened to her. And the evil of that disclosure of her telling us that took me into a whole other world. Like we're successful in the end, now we had probably 1995, maybe 500 stores. I'm not sure, but in the big middle of a very successful company. I had worked through a lot of stuff, still carrying some of my shame along, like a ball and chain. You got to wear it. You got to wear your shame. I mean, somebody has to pay the price for all this, right? And it's me. I'm so ashamed. Even after we've done counseling. So then this happens.

59:13I'll never forget coming back from the counselor's office. I went home and Jonas was there. And he just held me well. And I think I cried. I don't remember. I was in like shock, but he just said to me, I guess we did cry together. And he said to he just held it for what he said, huh? I'm so sorry. This happened to you and I. And I want to say to your audience right now, I'm sorry. So whatever it is that's happened to you is it's what he said to me. He said, and I want to share this with the audience. I'm sorry to happen to you.

1:00:18But it's just not perfect here. One day it will be. We get the heaven is going to be perfect there. And that may sound almost, but in that moment, we need to talk about heaven more because it really is our hope. It's never going to be perfect here. You know that. And yet we strive so hard to look perfect, to be perfect, to do whatever we do perfectly. All the while we know we're perfect. So when he said that we're strength comes from Jonah. Jonas. I said, Jonas. Yes. I think I'm sorry. I don't know where your strength comes from obviously.

1:01:19God. Because I immediately go to a dark place and wanting to defend you and your daughter and your sister. And as a parent, and will you hear people say it all the time? I've put me in prison. I'm going to make sure this person feels it for what they did to my loved ones, to my daughters, to my wife. And I don't know that I would have been able to hold myself back from hurting this human being in that moment. Right? And obviously it's not the right thing. It's not what Jesus would do. But you understand. It was emotions too. Right? How did you to stay in the right place mentally to not be in prison? Basically. Well, that's the story. That's the story is in my book. And Jonas, I will tell you if we ever come back and do another

1:02:23podcast or whatever he has his own story. But I want to share this part. Since you have that question, he put a... I've never really shared this publicly, but he put a razor blade in his wallet. And he felt in that weird, but he felt some kind of power with that. Knowing, I mean, if I want to, I could use this razor. And I could hurt him or whatever. That's very simply said. But that makes sense. And after about a year, I think, as he tells the story so well, all his spirit just said, you don't really want to do that, do you? And he said, yeah, I do. I would hurt his man. This man had stripped him of everything. And he nearly lost his family. So why would he not want to hurt? So that's a normal response. And so we kind of argued, I think, with the Holy Spirit for a while and said, and realized, hey, if I hurt the man, then I'm going to

1:03:26be the one that's going to go to jail, I can't do that for my family. We've had enough pain. So vengeance is not mine. I can't do this. And so it took that razor blade out of his wallet and decided that's not a good idea. But the thoughts that we have about, evening the score sage, is all over the, I mean, it's the human part. It is of us, I guess. And it is one that we're not proud of. And understandable. Considering. Exactly. So what happened to this man, my daughter at that time, we got fired up and I was still scared to death almost 20 years later. I'm afraid of this man. That is so weird. But I always felt like he was going to destroy somebody my time. I'm like, literally hurt them and kill them. I don't know. It's just what your mind is crazy. And so in that moment when our daughter came forward and we, this is how we're going to do what we can.

1:04:29Oh, let me back up. Initially, we went to the board of the denomination that he was from. We were able to strip him of his license. And then he joined another, another denomination, a very prominent denomination. And Jonas, single-handedly, went to them. And told them what he did to us. So we did what we could. But during that time, I understand women that have been abused or children. And you got to go to court and talk about his, you feel raped and abused all over again. That's just that. It doesn't even seem logical in my head as far as what we can't do that. We're too broken. So for us to have the courage to go to denomination and do that, that was like, wow, it took us about a year to make that happen. And Jonas spent a lot of time. And so we did that. But never were able to prosecute him at Blooming jail. Now, and he continued on his way on doing the same old things. And

1:05:38but we knew that we couldn't because, oh, because my daughter and I, we went to Dallas to a high-powered attorney at that time. We had the plan and everything. Like, okay, we're going to prosecute him. She's 25 and I'm in my 50s and we're doing anti-ans and we're really busy. But, okay, we can do this. Well, at that particular meeting with the attorney, at one point he asked her a very simple question. He said, all we need from you is one time that you remember clearly where and when. And she crawled up in a fetal position on this. Bigger was a huge big over-stuff chair in his office and crawled up in a fetal position. And he just said it again. I just need one event. She said she just put her, she covered her face with her pillow and just, just cried. I just said, I can't remember one time. He was my life. And she put a number out there. He did it to me like, I don't know what the number was a wild crazy number. You know, it was probably not

1:06:41true. I mean, it was, it was just a reaction to the question. I knew then there's no way we could never make her face him as impossible. We got the message this year. This year, he was 90, I forget 92 or three or four, I don't know. I think 92. On my, I'm going to tell off in my age right now, but it was on my 77th birthday this year that we cut the news that he's dead. I'm like, wow, I don't even know what that means after living with the thoughts and the I was no longer afraid. And our family was, you know, we're past it now. But the kids and news of he's dead. There was two things. One was a regret that we couldn't put him in jail because we found out all these things were still happening to other people that we started to find out about.

1:07:45And so one regret was we never were able to put him in jail. But then, you know, vengeance is mine. And God said, I will repay. And we had to leave it there. Either that, or be so mad and so bitter and so angry. And what I use, this is what I mean. We become this, you can't live that way and fully be alive. So there's something good about, I say, do what you got to do, you know, as far as taking whatever you need. It's okay to go to the law within a, take people to try to do justice for people. I believe in that. But I also, I also believe that it can keep us so engaged with this anger and so we're so tied up and we can't live. That's why I'm saying the tragedy is not in dying, but it's what dies inside of us why we live. And I'm alive. I'm alive. And I put it, I will be said, there's two men that

1:08:52that walk with me today. Jesus and Jonas. All you need is one good person by your side and Jesus. Okay, you need more things, but stay in, in the light. Don't isolate. You have to be among the living. I want to tell you about relief factor. It can help all those body parts that are hurting and sore back in neck pain. I'm very familiar with all of those general muscle aches and pains resulting from aging and exercise. So it's important. It's an alternative to help your body's natural inflammatory response that causes soreness, stiffness, and discomfort after exercise. And just daily living and it keeps you from doing the things that you love freely and with maximum mobility. Relief factor, the name is perfect. It's a 100% drug-free research-based formula that

1:09:54was created to help support a healthy response to inflammation and decrease discomfort. Again, from aging, from exercise, from the effects of just everyday life. And honestly, when I say I have felt it too, I cannot explain it enough. Because since starting relief factor, I've been able to continue my daily workout routines, which have gotten hard with age and walking two to three miles every single day. This stuff helps keep me doing these physical things that are important to me without winscing in pain every time that I move. So your $17.76 three-week quick start is ready for you right now. Visit relieffactor.com or call 800-4 relief. When you think back on that young girl who was debating whether or not she should marry him, because he changed after his own pain. And you said that you didn't realize how good of a man that he was. Can you imagine? Listening to that instead of your heart and eventually,

1:11:02at what moment did you know he was a good man that day? I mean, all my life he did was a good man. I knew he was a good man, but that day, that day, the day that you shared. Because as I made a promise to him that I wouldn't leave without telling him first. Because I thought that really was my only option to leave. Because shame and all those things make us believe lies. But I asked him something. I asked him if he could promise me something. Imagine, in my condition, I wanted him to promise me one thing. And I said to him, will you promise me one thing? Will you promise me that you won't rub my past in my face? And if I remember correctly, by that time I think we were both

1:12:03tearing up and feeling the emotion of that moment. And he just said, I promise. And I thought, that's when I discovered he's a good man because he hasn't never to this day. Not one time. Has he made me feel guilty? Never once did he say, why did you do this to my family? Why did you not tell me all the things that I know are inside of it? Why? And he has never once made me feel guilty about my life. That's miraculous. It's supernatural. And in time, because and there was very little communication between us. But again, I felt his spirit. I felt something between us that was unbelievable, but I wasn't sure what that was. And I just, it's hard to

1:13:12for people to believe probably. But that's when I began to realize how good he was. He's not pretending. It's not about me. It's not what's ever about him. It was about his family. It was about loving his wife, loving his children, keeping the family together. It was during those years I realized I have made a really good man. I don't deserve it. Oh, I don't deserve this good man. How's another big biggie? 58 years. 58 years in two weeks. I know. That's when I, when I, during those years, I did not want to grow old with him. There was, I couldn't imagine. It's not like I hated him, but there's just nothing. We had nothing. We lost our baby and I'm abused by this pastor and

1:14:14everything was wrong. There was nothing left to live for. And the thing that I kept think I can't live with him because my guilt and my shame and my, oh my gosh, I can't live with this man. I'm not good enough for him. There is no way. But here we are. We're together. And we're actually happy together. And to this day is never one time. What we began to talk about is what he would say to me, how could this happen to us? Like, I was a happy kid. I, you know, he was a happy boy. I mean, life was good. Like, we were doing all the right things. Life is good. God is harsh. Like, if we disobey him. And when pastor raped me, and I was four months pregnant at that time, in that moment, I crossed the line. And somewhere in your journey, when you're traumatized, or you have this something that helps, that just takes you

1:15:16in this place of, you know, trauma, disappointment of tragedy. At some point, for me, I crossed the line. And that was when he raped me. And I knew that from that point on, I couldn't care anymore. What lined up you, Christ? That's what I'm saying. He did this to me, but it was so unbelievable that this was happening to me. This little, I was a little pure little girl. I never, we didn't have TV in our home. I never knew anything sexual. There was never nothing. I was a virtual. We got married and all these things. What did I do wrong? I mean, what happened? Why? Something that you're in your mind, you did something to deserve. Oh, exactly. Exactly. It wasn't Angie's death, but when the abuse started happening, that became my stronghold because it became my secret. And that's the power and the evil and people like that faster.

1:16:20Yeah. And let me tell you something. It's not that uncommon. Yeah. Surprisingly, it's not that uncommon. I mean, touch with a lot of people when I'm out and about. And you as well, you speak. And when you open up to tell your story, other people come up and say, Oh, wow, that happened to me too. Or whatever. But when you open up your life, which I thought back in the day, I would never, okay, I told you I know it's my secret, but I'm never telling anyone my story. Are you kidding me? Why would I tell my story? But somebody asked me one time when I was speaking. We had a Q&A, but the moment she said, so if you lived your life differently, what would you do if you could live your life all over again? What would you do different? Oh my god. I really think about that. What would I do different? I concluded in my mind in that moment, I wouldn't change a thing. Why? She said to me, why? That's because all of this has made me who I am today.

1:17:25I don't even know how to explain what I mean, but there's, if I would have stayed this idyllic, as you know, it's a little girl, married, had a happy family, and everything went well. And for me, I would not have the compassion. I wouldn't have the knowledge. I would be completely clueless about what's actually happening in our world, in the church, in the schools, in the community. It's everywhere. The abuse. And there's more than one kind of abuse. I mean, it's not just all sexual abuse. There's bullying in schools. I mean, but that word abuse has really, I just have so much understanding about that and how you can be manipulated into it and feel less then. And your voice is stolen. You can't say anything. I don't even know how to talk about this. Why would I? I don't know. I don't understand my feelings

1:18:29about this. So your voice is silenced. And you really believe, I have nothing good to say. I don't know how to say it. I don't know what to say. But I can tell you, you can actually learn how to talk again. You can learn how to speak. I don't mean on stage, but you can learn how to speak in ways that are meaningful, that are helpful, that are encouraging, that are uplifting, that keep people hope. And that's become my life. And that's what I love. I wouldn't have that. None of that, if my life would have been the way I thought it should be.

1:19:40An amazing 77 years old. That's right. She's hot. I know you know this, Jonas. Don't say that. I don't know. You are stunning. You are. And you probably, well, I know, you don't need to do this. You don't need to keep talking and to relive this and to share. Because you shared in your books, et cetera, and on stage, why do you? I want to give people hope. It's a dark world for a lot of people. That's why. I just want to give you hope. When I think, when I tell my story, I remember it. I remember how I felt when I drove down that highway. I wanted to take my life. And I remember the thoughts that I had. If I take my life,

1:20:40then my girls would be with it. And so I'm just saying, this is real stuff. I would eat people hope in that moment, whatever you're feeling right now. That's the lie. It's a lie. It doesn't. And the only way out of that, there's only one way. You know the answer to this. There's only one way. You got to start talking. You have to start talking. Palm sweating, getting my little Jeep, little truck that day, crying my apples out. I can't do this. I can't tell Jonas. I can not tell him. That's how a lot of people feel. I can't. And I won't because, whatever he said, I'm here to say you can. You can. It's the hardest thing in the world. But you can be strong and you can be courageous. You're still alive. You do have something to say. You do have a voice. But you have to reactivate it. Begin to talk. Just little snippets go to coffee with somebody and say,

1:21:43wow, if you knew my story, you'd never believe it. You can start somehow. You can kind of ease your way in. And you know what I always discovered about when I started telling my story. If the listener raised their eyebrows or like, like, they're wondering what, like, or are surprised by what you're saying. I'm like, ooh, that would just put me right back in this isolation. I want to be fully known. I want to be fully understood without guilt. I don't want anybody to judge me when I start telling my story. Because if you do, it just takes me back into isolation right away. So for the good listeners, we all were created to be good listeners. We have two years, one mouth. So when somebody comes to you with a brokenness and they can't even, they don't even want to say, as a listener is someone with compassion and you can encourage them and never be surprised about what they tell you. Yes. Never be surprised, but rather empathize. Wow, I cannot believe

1:22:48that happened to you. I am so sorry. No judgment. And I've often said, don't give them a, someone that's been raised in church, even Bible verses sometimes just like, shut you down. Because you know the verse, but I can't. I'm not letting it get right now. So listen and respond with questions. Tell me more. They want permission. People we want permission. And fear of judgment. Oh, huge. More shame. So you're like, I don't want to put myself out there in order to be attacked more because what I'm doing to myself is already bad enough, right? Absolutely. It's understandable why we, because everyone has, we keep it in. It's safer. It's very safe. But you're dying. Yes. A little bit every day. Yes. It's survival. You went from almost taking your own life. How close? Twice.

1:23:54I was scared to catch. You know what I mean? But I had a plan in my head. But twice you were like, my plan would have left it like me. I don't know if it would have just hurt me really bad or it was like, so yeah, I did. I didn't want to go home. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Almost taking your own life, living through the worst possible pain with the loss of a child and then abuse for years. And then the levels of abuse that you learn later with sisters, with your daughter, your marriage. And somehow you decided to go back in the kitchen. I imagine you were there the whole time. Yeah. But you were 40. Yeah. When you and Jonas decided to start any ends. And we started to auntie ends because all of everything we call through, Jonas would say in our covers, I just don't know how did this happen to us. I mean, that sounds silly. But like it's impossible.

1:24:56We didn't crop in an abusive home. And you know, like a lot of the kids do today. And that's me horrible. That's very sad. But we didn't have that kind of a upbringing. So how could this happen to us? That doesn't make sense. Right. And so he began to study psychology. And then he said, I want to help other families and couples that are going through hard things in their marriage. And I want to become a Lehman's counselor. And so he studied for a number of years with the emerging ministries out of Akron, Ohio. And they were a counseling center. And he became a very, very good counselor. And he did it as a free service to anybody that wanted to come in. He did that full time. And we weren't making any money. I'm just saying, you know, you volunteer. You don't make money. You know, I'm saying, but he there's no way he was going to charge anybody. And he just kept it kept growing. And within, within a very short time, I said to him, one day, I'm just going to good work. You know, I'll go to good work. And you can do what you're doing. And I was honored to do what I needed to do. So he can help other people. And he was, so yeah. And so I,

1:26:00since I've found a job in Kings Hawk pretzels and soon became anti-Hans Hawk pretzels. And I was so happy to support and making money. We're selling pretzels for 55 cents of these. This was no plan. This was just, it just happened. Like somebody called me and said, you do you want to work, I have a job for you. You do want to work for me. I'm like, oh, sure. Yeah. So that's how it started. I'm just responding to somebody that had a market stand. That was selling pretzels initially. And so that's how I learned to make pretzels. And then seven months later, we bought our end store. And it had pretzels as well. We didn't buy, we didn't plan on doing pretzels the rest of our life. It's just where we ended up where I had one job that was, I was working at a store and then we bought a store out of farmers market that had pretzels. Jonas had been doing studies and had been studying psychology. And now just, just serving people, counseling people all week long. Started making pretzels. I was starting to make money at 55 cents a piece, three for $1.50.

1:27:04And the word spread in the community and the county and in the market of Pennsylvania, there are lots of farmers markets. And it's real, it's the real deal. This farmer is coming with their wares and homemade things, whatever. But the words started to spread and anti-ans pretzels became. Everybody started to know about anti-ans and people came to us. They wanted to do their own store. And I'm like, no, you can't do your own store. I mean, why would you? This is our store. It's our idea. It's like, yes. I wanted to hold it close and like, no, this is, you know, so we did two and then people kept coming, say, can we please do a store or something in another market? Anyway, we find he said, okay, we caved. And my brother was one of the first franchise. We didn't know we were French, I think, but sure he said, no, he said, I want to use your name in your recipe. And I said, huh, well, if you want to use my name and the recipe, then I'm going to, so what about maybe it shouldn't be called maybe a start-up fee? Maybe we charge you $1250

1:28:05to use my name and the recipe. And we'll help you build your store. That's how it started. Oh my goodness. This is what year? That was in 1989. It's $250 start-up fee. Yeah. And then, oh, and five percent of the gross profit I said, I knew nothing about franchising. Where'd you come up with these numbers? Which is common sense. Like, okay, if you really use my name, that's great. I mean, okay, but you got one. You're going to have to pay for it. Yeah. We hadn't talked to up franchise consultant or anybody about anything. Well, he started his store, and that year we built 10 stores at former markets and in the area. And everybody was paying $1250 for the franchise fee and 4 percent of your gross sales come to us every week. Wow. While we learned so much in a short time, it was wild, it was crazy. We got people came, one or two people came, and they stole the name. And so we had all these things going on. We're just like, we're up to

1:29:09here with about 12 stores. I thought I was as far as I could go with 12 stores. How do I deal with Got Headland? And you sold in what year? 2005? 2005? 89.05. So you went from the farmers market basically a farmer at the end of the year to at the end when you sold how many stores? So by the end we were in by 2005, we weren't, no, I'm sorry, by 1995, we went all the way around halfway around the world in Indonesia. So we started doing international stores. And six years? Lesson about, yeah. Yes. Yeah, we did. So that's how we sold. That's the part. I can't answer that question. You have to read the book. Yeah, it's actually okay. We need to make sure people go do that. Okay, so I mean, yes, there are some very good reasons. Jonas and I, you know, I was always curious. And so I, I ask a lot of questions and I started reading books. I mean, seriously, I read books about leadership and franchising and management and all these things. I every trip I

1:30:12made, I'm reading books, reading, reading. And then I have great people around me and we started to hire people in my whole family that one point there was 31 of my family members working for us. Wow. It's just the whole story is, that's why I call it Anteans, is a fact a modern day piss us very cool. If you want to know all the details, we do not have time for that. So read that book. Overcome and lead. It's the name of that book. Sorry, overcome and lead. It's the name of the book. Yes. What you can't give me the recipe. I'm not asking for the recipe. Thank you. My question is like, you couldn't try it anyway. Not at all. What is it though that makes it so special? Not ingredient. Maybe it is. You tell me what is it that makes it so special where every one of us, red blooded Americans who's been in any airport or mall, we know what that smell is from a mile away. I know. And it is, it actually, it makes me smile. It makes me happy. And it makes me want to keep going back. You're welcome. Because I do.

1:31:16Do you want to simple answer or the long? I mean, it has to be the simple answer. I think honestly, there was so much love and so much excitement and so much redemption that Jonas and I have felt by 1988. From 1977 to 1988 that we had that few years there where we were able to get together and be together and be family and love life and all these things. And so the love of God and the love of my husband and the redemption that we have full redemption from nothing, no money in the bank, no zero. We had literally no money. My father, my wealthy, amish man gave us $6,000. That's, we had no money in the bank when we started. He loaned us the money. So, so, I mean, just imagine in your mind, think about how go back to my brokenness and how that had me trapped and how I finally had the courage to come out of that. And while now we're soring, like we're actually living life again, I'm not dying on the inside anymore. Now I'm a life

1:32:19because why? Because I'm walking in the light. I'm not doing anything that's going to take me back into the dark world ever. I even stopped watching TV shows that were feeding my darkness. The darkness, yeah. God just, just spoke to me about that. I mean, clearly, don't watch it in days of our lives anymore. I lived my life in days of our lives. And you didn't do that if you wanted. The restless too. Oh yeah, those things. And I knew that was very, and the other thing he said to me, don't go anywhere by yourself because I didn't trust me. I was too weak. I was too vulnerable. I was too like I'm fresh out of this abuse and out of this. It's a craziest connection. And I could fall back into that anytime. I knew I could as horrible as it was that the only life line I had for seven years was the pastor. Yes. And then so two things. Watch what you watch. Be careful what you're yours here. And don't put yourself in positions where you're going to be fall, where you

1:33:24can fall back into that life. So Jonas, I told Jonas about that. He said, that's okay. We were writing a lot of motorcycles back in the day. He and I each had a motorcycle. He said, well, just write, did the story together? We'll go have coffee together. And I said to him, I'm not going anywhere alone. He said, that's fine. I'll go wherever you go. So that's what we did. So there's some things that you just have to change. You know, number one is talk. Number two is start to think about how can you make yourself stronger? Don't put, I didn't want to put myself in places of vulnerability. I didn't from that point on. I knew I needed help. That's the beginning. And this is so much bigger than an amazing yummy pretzel. Oh, yeah, it is. Only the pretzel smell. Yeah. The smell. So the ingredient is an honor. Is when you smell that. When we tasted our very first pretzel together, after we changed the recipe, we had bought a store that had pretzel recipe. It was horrible. The pretzels were terrible. And I was going to take it off the menu and you may

1:34:25know that story. I don't know. And he came in that morning on a Friday morning to our market. He said, huh, before you take that pretzel stuff and menu, let me see. I think that we just need to tweak the recipe a little bit. I'm like, whatever, I was so, because I'm a good baker. And the pretzels were horrible. I was done. And he said, just let me try something. I'm going to go, go if you want. I was done. So it comes back. We had to our ingredients that we mixed that we already had. And first, it was him and I. And I'll close with this story. And as the pretzels, we added the ingredients and we didn't know. I don't know. We didn't know if it was going to change anything or not. And so pretzels are peaking and we're starting to smell. What you just talked about, we're starting to smell this. Wow. So we opened up the oven door and we're looking, wow, the pretzels. Wow, they look different. Oh, wow, they smell good. So they're all done. Pull them out of the oven. We put them in the hot butter. And he and I broke bread together

1:35:25that day. So when I talk about fellowship, you know, bring your teeth into the light, walk in the light and then you start to have fellowship. And then you feel cleansed in that day, in that moment, that day, Jonas and I, it's like, we broke bread together. We didn't say that at that time. But I think about that moment. It's like, it's so real. Just him and I. And it was almost like, I don't know, maybe as I look back, it was almost like a celebration. You know, we've done all this, all this hard work. Here we are. We're breaking bread together. And this is good enough. This is amazing. And so I said to him, oh, I can't wait to tell the people, you know, that we have a different product than what we do. He said, no, don't tell anybody. Let them tell us how good the product is. Oh, okay. So we never told anyone ever told anyone, but customers immediately, they started like, what is this? What is this? So even today, you still smell that product.

1:36:26Yes. And with all the traveling that you do around the world. And everywhere you see them with over 2100 stores, does it still hit you when you walk by and you say your name there? And yes, because of this, but because of this journey. Oh, it's, it's the journey. A lot of the word is such a, it's never been about, I know this sounds, I don't know, but it's true. It's never been about me. It's my name. And I don't even know why we did that. Well, I do know because somebody suggested, I said, what are we going to call this? And she said, a friend of mine. So we had this whole big list of what we wanted to call our store. I said, just call it anti-ans pretzels. Everybody calls you anti-ans. Anyway, I have 30 nieces in that few. Oh, that's great. Okay. That's how we aim up with the name. So when I see it today, I'm reminded sage of my whole story. Yes, all of them. And I think about all the people, all the employees, all the vendors, all the French Hazzis, people came from all over the world.

1:37:30I mean, come on. Am I that amazing? No, I'm not. I'm not that amazing. So when you have a vision and you have a purpose and you just know there's something about this that I got to pursue. It's not about you. It's about the purpose. It's about what God's called you to just what he wants you to do to. What is your gift? Give it, give it away. So, so cannot become, it cannot be about me. It never has been that that smile on his face. I just love you too. I mean, it is an incredible story. And you have, I mean, you know that you're continuing to change lives, right? I suppose. I mean, that's thousands of employees start to expect thousands of employees all over the world. Like, that was so bad. That is, that's incredible. And most importantly, with this, to share. It's an amazing journey. The day I walked into that one step I talked to walk into the light. I would never have known how big it's, the light is not like this one light bulb, but it you shine,

1:38:37it shines on you. You're done. No, it just, it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. That's the way it works. Just walk into the light. Go toward the light. Can you have me that box of clean next to sure? On that note. Walk into the light, my friend. Thank you. This is crying too. How many times you you lived this? And you still like to be crying, right? Yeah. Thank you for being such a beautiful example. This is the sacred ingredient. That's possible. You are the secret ingredient. Yours what you're making me fat over here. It's his fault. It's your fault that I'm weak in airports. I heard that from my mom. My mom was some of the handicapped from my older sister because she was older than me. Help my dad out in the farm. I was the third child.

1:39:41So I got stuck in the house helping mom. And that's where I learned to bake. And that's how he knew what to put in our ingredients that would make a difference. That day in front of the oven that day. You put the oven. I remember just saying that she did. Like it was yesterday, you know, because it was so unbelievable. We could not believe that simple thing we did made that much difference. Yes. It's so totally different. And so yeah, there's a story behind the recipe. We can get it evaluated for shelf life. Couldn't we restart and we'll think about tenet overseas and stuff, you know. Wait, so we went to the cargo or somewhere to do that. Took our ingredients along. They analyzed all this and the lady said at the end of that whole thing. For this recipe is as simple as it is.

1:40:42The chance of those these ingredients coming in to one is what? One in a million. One in a million. Really? It was a God thing. Yes. No, no, no, no. I don't laugh behind what we did. It was just a God thing. But that's God. So we have the wrong picture, the wrong idea of God. That's the other part of what I love. I want people to know who he is, God. The theology is. Life is hard. God is good. Don't confuse the two. It's fall in Jeep country and during the driving to fall sales event, get a great deal on four by fours that refuse to be contained, like Jeep Wrangler. Confidence built into every drive with the most awarded SUV ever, Jeep Grand Cherokee, and freedom that can't be denied with the open air freedom in Jeep Gladiator. After 85 years, it's no surprise that Jeep became America's SUV brand. Get a great deal during the Jeep driving to fall sales event. Jeep is one more awards over its lifetime than any other SUV brand,

1:41:44even the Jeep Grille Registered Trademarks of FCA US LLC. I love the earrings and necklace that are matching. It's a special world, after all. But pull out the necklace. It's a real... Oh my little puppy. I'm going to get a close-up shot of that. It's so pretty. It's beautiful. Thank you so much. This means the world that you all came here. Thank you, Sage. This is... It is. It's truly about just sharing and everybody's journey, you know, and to do our best to not judge. And I struggle with that certainly. I mean, we all... It's just that story. I've talked about this a lot lately too, with my kids and just like... Sometimes people's behaviors bad. Oh. And there's never an excuse for bad behavior.

1:42:46But there might be a reason. Well, there's... And I think there's a big difference. And so let's be kind with it. And again, I'm not always kind to you. It's in my head though. Now I think about it a lot more. And I will slow down. Or I'll just say what I need to say to just Dave. And no one else can hear it. So therefore it's not happening, right? But when you think about that, when you think about someone, gosh, you say hi, walk in here in 12 South. You say hi good morning. They just look at you and look away. And you're like, well, they are mean. Maybe they're going through something that is debilitating. And we don't know. Keep leaning with that kindness and that understanding. Because that's the thing. Everybody can look at you and look at your name across the world. They're like, wow, they made it big. I mean, imagine what their life is like now, right? They can do whatever they want. They can afford whatever they want. No one knows the journey.

1:43:46So not part of the story. Right. That's the success isn't what it's about. And I think that's what we need to try to remember. And I know it's easier said than done. To learn from people who are willing to share. willing. And that does take courage. And the fact that you choose it is beautiful. I really just appreciate you asking me to be on your podcast. I mean, you're amazing in your own right. You've got a lot going on in your life and have a accomplish a lot. And I never I always look at people that have succeeded in whatever success they're enjoying. And wow, that's amazing. So success to me is I love being around people that are successful and are humbly enough to invite other people into their lives. Oh, you know what I'm saying? Yes. That's amazing to me. I think where I like it. I love people. I love hearing people's stories and learning

1:44:46and hopefully being better from it. You know, and what is shame if we keep it all in? Even the crowd. Like you just because that might help someone else maybe not stay as stay silent. Maybe be a little bit more courageous. Sooner, that's what I want from my kids. Don't wait as long as I did. You know, yeah, that's what I. Yeah, yeah. So it's a and it's funny, you know, business-wise, like I am clueless as Dave. I don't care. I care, but I don't care about the business side of it. Like I don't want to know. It's not my lane. I don't want to learn about it. I don't. Like you're good. You were reading your good. I know. At the end of the day, I because it isn't about, yes, we all want to be financially secure and not have to worry and be able to help others. And otherwise, I'm really good. There isn't like this. Oh, now I've made it. According to whom? Because it is bigger than that. And I just don't care. But I want to tell stories and get to know people

1:45:47and give people an outlet. Or a platform just to reach different people. Because you have a massive platform already. And you have for 100 years, you really have. But there's always new people. Oh, this is an audience. Only 77, not a century. But that's the pain. It's like there's always people who don't know and who are like, really? Yeah. It happens a lot now with us. Where they'll be like, I didn't even, I didn't earn a few until you're on Fox News. And my God, I should. I had 30 years of bust in my butt over here. You got good. It's a new audience. That's hopefully going to do it better than I did. Because now I have a different audience to share. To know, life is growing. Growth. Yes. Growth. Growth. All the way. You know, I can't do a point sometimes. Along the way, I've gotten to this point quite often. Like, I think I'm done. I think I'm done. And then I'm like, no, no. There's more. There's more. It just a matter of how done you think you are. Or how amazing you think you are. Like I've arrived.

1:46:47I don't know. There's more. There is always more. I Some people use chatGPT to answer questions. Others use it to get real work done. With chatGPT work, you bring the goal. Plus, real inputs like briefs, notes, files, feedback, data, and project plans. It can help turn them into an analysis, tracker, deck outline, prototype, or workflow you can review and keep shaping. You stay in control, giving direction and choosing the final output. Put chatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatGPT.com by selecting Work Mode, available on plus and pro plans. Eminem's popped caramel do sound different. Oh no. People are going to be obsessed. What do you mean? Hmm, people hate the sound of chewing.

1:47:48Maybe they won't like the crunch. Maybe we're saved. Wait a minute. Yellow. Have you been eating them this whole time? So tasty. Hands off us. Eminem's popped caramel. It's more fun together.