The Shifting Political Landscape is Drawing More Individuals to Public Service Lawyering

Welcome to the legal impact brought to you by the University of New Hampshire Franklin

Pier School of Law.

I'm your host, Laura Canoeil.

While almost half of beginning law students say they want to work in public service, by

graduation, those percentages fall dramatically.

Still, recently, there's been a slight change in this trend with more newly minted lawyers

choosing careers in government and the nonprofit sector, as the ever-shifting political landscape

draws more individuals to consider public service lawyering.

Well, today on the legal impact, we'll look at these shifts and how to support students

who want to work in this field.

Our guest is Anna Brown.

She's Executive Director of the Rudman Center for Justice, Leadership and Public Service

at UNH Franklin Pier School of Law and Anna Brown.

Big welcome.

Great to be here, Laura.

So you talk with students all the time.

What are you hearing from them about their interest in public service?

Well, it's really interesting.

First of all, we've seen record interest even at our own school this year.

So for example, we have a fellowship program we'll talk about later.

The info session, we had to move rooms because we were at maximum capacity, so we had to go

to the biggest room in the school.

And it is also true though that students have some complex feelings.

I've had a couple of conversations where students have come to me and they've said, you

know, I'm not sure about this thing that's happening in the government.

You know, we all use that term unprecedented times a lot these days.

And of course, some things are precedented or not.

You know, we did have a civil war in our country survived.

You know, but that's a really interesting conversation that I'm having with some students.

And I do say to them, you know, given where we're at in a democracy, if you want this

country to be the country you want to live in, then you need to get involved.

And so I really encourage them in that direction.

So how does the Rudman Center support these students?

You mentioned the fellowship program.

Yes.

This is really our hallmark program.

I love it.

So students often after their first year of law school get unpaid internships.

And this would be a government and nonprofit agencies.

So the Rudman Center comes in and provides fellowship funding to support these students.

So this allows them to go out in the community and do that important legal work.

Well, otherwise they might be doing just TJ Maxx or something like that to pay the bills.

So last summer we had close to 70 summer fellows.

And ultimately the work that they were doing the community had over a million dollars worth

of impact when we're looking at the value of the hours that they were putting in for legal

services.

What otherwise would be provided by a lawyer everywhere from the public defender.

We had dozens of students there to almost every court and New Hampshire, but also places

you might not expect like the Arts and Business Council of Greater Boston, other students

who might be working on IP law, you know, and technology transfer.

So nonprofits and government agencies work together to form that civil society fabric that

binds us all together.

So I'm really excited to support students who do that.

Yeah, the fellowships are really cool Catholic charities, which is one of the biggest providers

of food aid in the state of New Hampshire, 603 legal aid, a cause near and dear to everybody's

heart at the law school.

So instead of, as you put it, having to work at TJ Maxx for the summer, nothing against

TJ Maxx for Starbucks, they get $4,800, so they can at least, you know, pay room and

board for the summer.

Exactly.

Yes.

And because a lot of these students are working full-time hours at these placements and really,

really meaningful work.

A student at the public defender told a story about how pretty early on in her internship,

she was sent on a solo interview from the public defender to a jail, you know, going in

a jail and talking to a defender.

And so that is incomparable experience for the student, you know, learning about those

interactions.

It can be very stressful your first time, so you're getting your feet wet, getting out

in the real world, but you're also doing really important legal work because there is also,

you know, in a lot of these different nonprofits, some of these government agencies, there are

a shortage of legal services as well, you know, there's, so that's, it's sort of the double

whammy.

The student gets the meaningful impact, but then also these are important legal services

to offer the community.

Right.

It's that first bite of the apple then for the student.

Yeah.

Because when you're going into law school, you kind of can think about it and that was not

my original phrase, shout out to one of my colleagues, but so your first bite of experience

is, can you do that internship after your 1L, your first year?

Then you also have an opportunity after your second year and you're a little more experienced,

you're more likely to get a paid job, but we do also have Rudman Summer Fellows who will

do another year of nonprofit or government work.

And then you also have a residency, your third year, which is when you're going out and

you're working under the supervision of an attorney, and that could be in a private

law firm.

It could be more public service.

It could be any number of things, but that's for credit.

So you sort of have these three bites to get a sort of that taste of what kind of legal

work you might want to do.

So a student coming in saying, I really want to do public service work, or I'm not sure,

they get that bite of the apple, they decide maybe it's for them, maybe it's for them.

Absolutely.

And I've even had some students speak, you know, there was one student who he's actually

pretty incredible.

He was originally a 9-1-1 dispatcher when he came into law school and he thought, I want

to be a prosecutor.

He decided he wanted to be a public defender.

I had another student who said, I hate family law, I hate everything about it, and she

ended up working with victims of interpersonal violence on a domestic violence project.

And it completely transformed her outlook, and now she really wants to pursue that.

So it can, and those granted are still kind of similar areas, but you never know until

you try.

And I think that our law school does a really good job of encouraging students to try these

different areas.

Yeah, I think that's kind of a home mark I've discovered of UNH Franklin Pierce School

of Law is trying it, hands on, there's a Daniel Webster Scholar program, which we talked

about.

Oh, yeah.

On another episode in the podcast.

Yeah, our clinic.

So we have it in my P clinic, as well as the criminal clinic, you know, so yeah, lots

of different ways to get your feet wet.

So there's lawyers who work in public service, six or three legal, or whatever.

And then there's pro bono work, which the American Bar Association says all lawyers should

do, they recommend 50 hours a year.

How do you view the higher purpose of pro bono and, besides the obvious, helping people

out who can't afford legal help?

Here's the thing.

When you are a lawyer, you are part of the justice system.

You have this elevated role.

So even though you are still just a citizen, a member of the public, you weren't elected

to that office, you're, you're Mikey getting private pay, you know, you're not necessarily

in the government, but you're part of delivering justice.

And that rule of law, that justice system is foundational to our civil society, to our

functioning democratic republic.

And to quote the Spider-Man movies with great power comes great responsibility.

And so I think it's really important to build trust with the public so that if we have

that important piece that is part of a functioning democracy, everybody has a right to an attorney.

Everybody needs to have access to the justice system.

And so yes, you can go pro-say, which means you're representing yourself, but that's

incredibly difficult.

And it also creates a lot of challenges for the courts as well, because you need to help

people access things and go through a process that they don't know how to do.

So this, I view pro bono, it's not just, oh, something nice you do, oh, everybody does

volunteer work.

No, as an attorney, you are part of this larger justice system, and so you have an obligation

to the public.

Wow, that's a really beautiful way to put it, you know, being a lawyer isn't just a job.

You are part of a very critical piece of our functioning civil society.

Absolutely.

It is a privilege and a duty, I would argue.

So a 2018 survey from the American Bar Association found that the number of attorneys engaging

in that recommended 50 hours a year and a pro bono work has declined dramatically and

that roughly half of lawyers performed zero hours of pro bono service.

So what's going on there?

What do you think?

There's a lot of different factors.

So I think that it starts in law school, right?

And so there's this phenomenon called public interest drift.

The idea is, as you noted in your opener, we have a huge share of students who are coming

in, even more than ever, who are saying, I want to do public service, I'm becoming a lawyer

because I want to do good, I want to make a difference.

But then by the time they graduate, the percentage drops quite a bit.

And so there's been studies on this, and I think the first one we can throw out there

would not surprise anyone, student debt, right?

I think that especially right after you graduate law school, yes, there's student forgiving

loan forgiveness programs for public service and so on, but you're looking at this mountain

of debt and you're looking at the life you want to lead.

And so you're going to go into the best paying job where you're paying off those loans,

where you're moving forward.

And given the structure of billable hours, the culture and a lot of law firms, pro bono

is not being emphasized.

And so it's just sort of getting pushed to the side.

So that's one factor.

And then there's also the factor that I think we aren't inculcating those values of public

service into people, into our students, right?

And so that is partly where this Rudman Summer Fellows program comes in.

We're encouraging students to think about these values, think about what giving back looks

like and why that's important.

And a third piece I would say is just the straight up experience of these are the type

of pro bono cases that are out there, do attorneys have the skills to meet those needs.

Once again, I'm going to tout our awesome Rudman Summer Fellows program because the idea

is this is giving students experience in some areas of law, maybe criminal defense or

as I mentioned, seeking a protective order if it's a case where there's interpersonal

violence.

An attorney can go out and if they don't have any experience in these areas, they're

going to say, well, I'm not going to take on the pro bono case because I don't really

know what to do.

That's not my area of practice.

So you want to make sure that attorneys understand not only their obligations and have

those values, but feel equipped to go out and take on those cases as well.

So it's a complex issue.

But I also see it as part of this larger sort of cultural and societal issue that we have

right now where there's a lack of trust and there's a lack of community involvement.

That's not just on attorneys, that's not just about pro bono, that's about studies showing

we talk to our neighbors less.

Like literally the people who've next to us were talking to them way less than we did

decades ago.

And everybody's retreating into their own little bubble and their own talk about all

the reasons why the internet is part of it.

COVID had some to do with it.

There's a lot of different factors that are going into it.

But I think that when we're talking about things like any sort of volunteer hours, what

are we doing as a society as a whole to really encourage community involvement?

Because we do need to have that social fabric to get along together and have a functioning

civil society.

Right.

Wow.

I just have this image of like a bulldozer.

These factors pushing against lawyers doing pro bono.

But at UNH law, I mean, not to sound too much like an infomercial, but it's true.

I mean, the Rudman Center and the law school overall are trying to push back on those broad

trends.

And I would like to say, we know the students are coming in with that motivation, right?

We know because there's the surveys that ask students, what are you interested?

Why are you becoming a lawyer?

I want to do good in the world.

I want to make a difference.

So we just need to make sure that we're supporting and empowering that and giving them the tools

they need to go out and do that.

Instead of focusing too much on sort of the, you know, games, men aspects of being a lawyer,

you know, or just, well, okay, this is how you do the job.

And you know, don't get in trouble with ethics, you know.

So I got to give some credit to the students here.

Right.

Right.

Well, and the Rudman Summer Fellows, it's a huge part of giving them that bite of the apple.

The Rudman Center is named after the late New Hampshire U.S. Senator Warren Rudman served

in the U.S. Senate.

As you know, from 1981 to 1993, what was Senator Rudman especially known for?

How does he sort of fit into this whole picture that we're describing?

Senator Rudman deeply believed in the importance of public service.

And when you read his memoir, there are so many stories about mentors that he had and people

he mentored.

And he started out in the New Hampshire Attorney General's Office.

It wasn't his very first job, right?

But it was, you know, that's really sort of where his career launched.

And that was where he was with David Souter, who of course then went on to become a famously

moderate, maverick kind of U.S. Supreme Court justice.

And everyone I've talked to who worked in that office, and of course, Senator Rudman did

pass on, but many people who worked with him are still alive.

And they always talk about, there was this value of principles over politics at all times.

And when he talks about Justice David Souter, he talks about this man was born to be a judge

because he is able to be so impartial and so deeply thoughtful.

So I think that that's a very New Hampshire spirit, right?

This is, we're honoring Senator Rudman, but we are one of, we are a super purple state.

We have a Republican governor and a Democratic congressional delegate delegation, been like

that for many years now.

You look at our voters, the plurality, our registered is independent.

So this is part of our spirit, this is part of who we are.

And so the Rudman Center, I think, is a very New Hampshire institution in that we are celebrating

something that is principles over politics, and that New Hampshire identity is a real part

of that.

Well, in lending his name to the Rudman Center, Senator Rudman said that he could quote,

think of no greater mission than to train our next generation of leaders to seek justice,

serve their country, and work together for the common good.

How do our students today, and view these concepts of working together for the common good

working across the aisle?

How do young people today view that?

Well, we've all seen, there's plenty of statistics that young people, in addition to the

rest of us, but definitely young people are very able to segregate themselves politically,

right?

They're not forced to hang out with people who have different political views.

You don't even have to see it online, right?

You can completely create this world for you.

But at the Rudman Center, we really try to use events in particular, to really encourage

students to encounter different points of view and challenge their own points of view.

And this is not just like a political catch line, or like, oh, bipartisanship is important.

I think that this is, if you're going to be a good lawyer, you need to be able to challenge

your own points of view, think about what the argument is on the other side.

How would you deal with that?

And also, when you're working with other attorneys, we had a great event with retired Justice

James Bassett from the New Hampshire Supreme Court, who was a Republican and retired

Congresswoman Annie Custer, who was a Democrat.

And they were lifelong friends, but they kept that very separate from their political

careers.

And we had an event we did with leadership, New Hampshire, where they were talking about,

how do you navigate friendship, how do you navigate working across the aisle?

Why is that important?

One of the things they said that really stuck with me was they said that there's a New

Hampshire maxim of never burn a bridge.

And it's because in New Hampshire, but I think in plenty of other legal communities,

you're going to walk into a courtroom, and you're going to be up against, you know, the

little league coach for your kids' soccer team, or baseball team, I should say.

You can tell that I don't do kids sports.

That's fine.

You know, you're going to recognize the judge because you did an internship in there.

The clerk is going to be someone who graduated a few years before you.

So this small bar requires you to be able to have cordial relationships with everyone.

And ultimately, we think of loyering as very adversarial, and that is how our justice

system is set up.

But ultimately, so much of that work that goes into it is your ability to work together

and have those civil relationships.

And I even go back, you know, so we're talking about how bipartisanship, how like working

with different points of view, considering different points of view, being civil, that's

all part of it.

It translates to what we see in Congress, and I just want to point out, you know, so many

of the people who represent us start out as lawyers.

And one thing that has always stuck with me when you talk about, and Senator Rudman talks

about, you know, there was this shift in the 90s, in particular, where our politics became

a lot more hostile and adversarial.

And one of the small changes that precipitated that was Newt Gingrich said, don't bring

your families to Washington, DC.

I don't want you at neighborhood barbecues with our political opponents.

I don't want your families getting to know each other, okay?

So how do we flip that script?

Because we are all people that are part of the same community, whether you are a Democrat

or a Republican, I would argue the solution is not to just obliterate the other side.

Because this is your community.

You have to work together because we are all part of this shared neighborhood.

That relates to something I wanted to ask you Anna, in addition to the summer fellows

and supporting students who are seeking public service careers, the Rudman Center likes

to say that it is a hub for public discourse.

And that's where my work with the Rudman Center comes in, because I host a lot of those

public events.

Why is that important to the overall mission of training lawyers?

Absolutely.

So once again, we talked about the leadership, New Hampshire event we did, where we called

it leadership unplugged, and we brought in these two friends from opposite parties and

had them discuss.

And so that's a lot of the time we're trying, that was not a specific issue, right?

Unless, although I would say hyper partisanship is maybe an issue in and of itself, that's

a worth an event.

But a lot of times we'll take other really highly divisive issues as such as health care

costs, biasing technology, the mounting national debt, which was an issue that was very near

and dear to Senator Rudman's heart.

And we'll try to encourage students to really face both sides of this issue and have the

community come in and face both sides of the issue.

Because that's the other piece, is I feel like the Rudman Center helps connect this law

school and future lawyers to the larger community.

Right, that's what's nice about it.

It's in Concord, and it draws not just students, but it draws people from the legal community,

people who are just interested in issues, and it's been really satisfying.

Last question for you, Anne, what are your hopes for the Rudman Center, the students

you serve, moving forward?

I really see us as becoming the launching pad for the next generation of public service

leaders, not only in New Hampshire, but in the country.

Let's create a bunch more of Senator Rudman, Warren Rudman's, who are courageously independent,

who are willing to talk to anyone and try to find common ground.

And I really see this ultimately as a mission that's not just about our law students, who

are a lot of them, be as lawyers, going to be leaders.

But the larger university community, the larger community in Concord and the surrounding

areas, because I believe that these values and principles we're talking about, those

are leadership lessons for anyone.

Right.

Being a leader is not the same as being a boss.

Being a leader is not the same thing as having power.

Being a leader is inspiring something in the people around you.

Right.

And those values, we try to present those at the Rudman Center, and then hopefully they

go forward.

Absolutely.

It's been so much fun talking to you.

Thank you, Anna.

Thanks, Laura.

That's Anna Brown, Executive Director of the Rudman Center for Justice, Leadership, and

Public Service at UNH Franklin Pierce School of Law.

And that's it for this month's episode of The Legal Impact.

I'm Laura Canoe, Director of Community Engagement at the Rudman Center.

Our show is recorded, edited, and produced by the Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communication

at Franklin Pierce University.

Opinions discussed on the Legal Impact do not constitute legal advice or represent the

official views of the University of New Hampshire.

Thanks, everyone, for listening to The Legal Impact.