The Shocking Reality of the Treatment of Christians in the Holy Land by the US-Funded Israeli Government

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Good evening, from where I'm standing right now, I can see all around me in a ring seven

Christian churches.

We're not going to pan to see them, you can see behind me, but they're all on the ridges

of this valley around me.

We are about a hundred yards from the River Jordan and about 150 yards from the spot where

Jesus, the Christian Savior God on Earth, was baptized by John the Baptist.

The beginning of his ministry and the beginning really of the gospel.

John the Baptist lived famously in the wilderness, eating locusts and honey, that was right here.

We are in the Holy Land, but on the political map we're in an overwhelmingly Muslim country,

a monarchy called Jordan.

And that's significant, particularly now, because the question of how Christians are treated

in the Holy Land is a political question.

And it is because much of what happens in this region is funded by the United States,

by its taxpayers, military action, but also the cultural and religious life of the region

is funded to a great extent by American Christian churches.

And so the question that we've asked for some time now is, what's the outcome?

How are Christians in the Holy Land doing?

Are they thriving?

Are they suffering?

And the truth has become pretty obvious over the past couple of years, which is in Israel,

they are not thriving.

Their numbers are not growing, they are shrinking, and there's a huge debate about why,

but the bottom line is there are fewer Christians now, far fewer, in absolute numbers, and particularly

as percentage of population than there were when the state was founded in 1948.

And there's a lot of evidence in the last couple of years, particularly since the Gaza

war started, and the whole tone of the conversation in this area has changed quite a bit, and the

rise of extremism, very noticeable, that those numbers have gotten even smaller.

And in Jerusalem, if you follow this at all on the internet, you see video clip after video

clip of Christian clergy being spit at by religious extremists, not Muslim religious extremists,

Jewish religious extremists, and that's something most Americans didn't know happened, didn't

think could happen, particularly since the United States, the most important Christian

country in the world, is funding this.

And anyone who's raised this question, this show has done that, has been dismissed out

of hand as a liar or an anti-Semite, or best of all a secret jihadi, a secret Muslim,

you must be a Muslim.

And so we thought it would be worth coming here to find out what the truth is, or at least

getting closer to the truth, the truth being pretty elusive usually in political terms,

but why not go ahead and talk to people, why not go ahead and talk to Christians, and

find out their side of the story.

Why aren't Christian churches doing this?

Why aren't American Christian leaders like Mike Huckabee or Ted Cruz, people who invoke

the Christian Bible to justify what they're doing?

Why haven't they done this?

We can only guess what they haven't.

They have funded the other side.

So we thought, let's talk to them.

We are about to play interviews that we just did about five minutes ago with two Christians

from this area.

One was born in Israel, one was born in Jordan.

The one born in Israel was born, in fact, in Jesus' hometown of Nazareth.

His father was literally a carpenter, which is kind of hilarious.

He is now the Anglican Archbishop of Jerusalem, which is to say he's the representative of

the Anglican Church, the global Anglican Church, in Jerusalem.

Whatever you think of the Anglican Church, it's not a small thing, and this is a very

well-informed person.

And you can judge for yourself whether he's telling the truth or not.

Our view is he absolutely is telling the truth, and the story that he's going to tell

you in just a minute is pretty shocking if you're a Western Christian, because it's

the story of Christians being oppressed in Jerusalem by a government that American Christians

pay for.

And the second person we're going to speak to is a businessman runs a bank here in

Jordan from a very prominent Christian family.

And if you're an American, you may be surprised to learn that in Jordan, a country that is

probably 97% Muslim, Christians who have been here for, of course, 2000 years, are

disproportionately represented at the higher end of the economy, which is to say there's

a large number of Christian families who are hugely successful in Jordan, and have been

for a long time since the creation of the state about 100 years ago.

That's not something you're going to see on CNN.

How would Christians thrive in a Muslim country?

And we're not experts on this, of course, being not that well versed in Islam, but we thought

to be worth talking to a sincere Christian whose family's been here for 2000 years and

ask, how did that happen?

And what does it tell us about our understanding of what's actually happening in the Holy

Land, in Jordan, the West Bank, and Israel, which again is right there.

We are 25 miles from Jerusalem.

And so with that, keep an open mind, listen carefully to what sincere Christians in this

area have to say about what's happening here, and you may find a story that shocks

you.

Archbishop, thank you.

You live in Jerusalem, but we're on the other side.

We're about 100 yards from Israel across the West Bank across the Jordan.

How are Christians doing in the Holy Land?

You know, Christians in the Holy Land, of course, have been here for 2000 years, yes.

And over the history, the Christian community has thrived in phases, you know, like declined

in others, but I think now we are on the declining end of our Christian presence in the Holy

Land.

In general, we're still living our faith, witnessing to our communities, and also trying

to kind of maintain our presence.

And I'm sorry to say that because maintaining, because maintenance is not on the good side

of things.

No, it's not growth.

Growth is not thriving, it's not accomplishing and achieving.

We are custodians of the Christian faith, and Jerusalem is the capital of our faith.

It's our spiritual capital, yes, Christians.

But to see the declining numbers of Christians over the decades, and especially since, like,

48 and 67, we have seen, like, challenging phases of Christians facing realities that

we were not used to before.

So 1948 was the year that the political state of Israel was created.

That's correct.

And huge percentage of the average population was expelled.

That year, 1967, the Six Day War increased the territory of the state, and the majority

is now called occupied territory, where there are big declines after both of those in

the Christian population.

Absolutely.

So you can think about, you know, the Christian population, it went into half in 1948 because

many people had to leave.

What is my home land, you know, like where I grew in Nazareth, yes, in Galilee, half of

the Palestinian population had to be expelled to other places, and who became refugees.

So when we speak about Palestinian refugees today, they are all coming or came from what

is proper Israel today.

What I think most Americans don't understand is that some large number of those refugees

who are expelled by force from their land were Christian.

Yeah, there are many Christians, absolutely.

Let me tell you something.

Our congregation in Beirut, Old Saints, is 90% they come from Haifa, Akul, Nazareth, and

other places around Galilee.

No, 90% of imagine, of the Anglican community in Beirut are Palestinian Christians who come

from Galilee.

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So in the United States, as you may or may not know, Palestinian is a synonym, is the

same word for Islamic terrorist.

When people in the American media say Palestinian, it means someone who's an Islamist, basically

but you're saying that a lot of those Palestinians refugees were Christians, Anglicans, even.

No, absolutely.

I think there are many places in the world where people can use words that mean something

really horrific, but that's, I think that's demonizing for me, that's demonizing.

What sounds also untrue?

Absolutely.

Because when you speak about Palestinians, I'm Palestinian, and I'm an archbishop.

So I look to the rest of you, like, he's like an angle, can actually.

Yeah, so I think, you know, like this, this is, again, this is like kind of killing the

image of the Palestinian people by claiming that they are terrorists or they are uncivilized

or they are savagies or, you know, I think this is exactly just pushing an agenda where

they just want to frame you.

So that Palestinians lose sympathy in the world.

That's basically what it is.

Riking to me is that that narrative, as you said, that image is being pushed not just

by Jewish supporters of Israel, but in the United States heavily by Christian supporters

of Israel.

Christian supporters of Israel in the US are dismissing their brother Christians in this

region as terrorists.

I totally agree.

There are lots of agendas, and especially Christian, many Christians around the world,

you know, who think that they are doing favor to the Jewish people.

Yes.

And I have, like, really kind of too full answer to that.

The first one is about Jews themselves.

You know, as we know, like, you know, there are many Jewish people, people of faith, who

see in these groups also as people who really don't work for their interest.

You know, we know what dispensalation, dispensalation, let me just get that one.

We know what dispensationalism is about.

I know that, you know, politicians around the world, and especially, like, the colonial

thinking of bringing the Jewish people to the Holy Land or to the Land of Israel, is

something that can really kind of fit both agendas.

But actually, you know, and we have heard this time and time again from many Jewish people

who say that this agenda, eventually, you know, for all the Jewish people coming to their

home lands, you know, becomes again a kind like a trap, because they're all supposed to

convert to Christianity or die, right?

So for them, this is an offense, you know, in that thinking of Zionist Christian thinking

and that some narratives would be damaging even to Jewish people, yes, and Jewish faith.

Now for us as Christians, of course, it's damaging because think about like, let me tell

you a story, a real story.

I once was in a kind of a community visiting England, and I was speaking about, you know,

how some Christians who have Zionist approach to the whole politics and the agendas, you

know, can be damaging to us as Christians in the Holy Land.

And they say, how come?

I said, you know, because this agenda of money coming from the West, sometimes, you know,

like they enable people, settlers, you know, to confiscate my own land.

Like we have lots of examples in Bethlehem, where a money that comes from around the world

is invested in building settlements on Christian land.

You know what the answer was, they told me sometimes we need to make a sacrifice for

a better good, a greater good.

Can you imagine that answer?

Christians told you this?

Yeah, Christian, you know, somebody told me this and I had a youth group with me, I'm

telling you, they were in tears, they were in tears.

How can a Christian brother or sister around the world take me as kind of means, no matter

what happens to me?

How can I really reconcile myself with this?

So from this story, I'm telling you that, you know, these views sometimes are damaging

because, you know, they are exclusive.

I'm not judging, you know, like Christian Zionists for their belief, they can believe

what they want to believe, but when it comes to exclusion, exclusion, excluding Palestinians

whether they are Christian or Muslim, right?

You know, I think this is where my problem lies in their ideology, if you know what I mean.

It doesn't sound, I mean, I think we can say that Christianity does not support violence.

Of course not.

Right.

Of course not.

We couldn't have violence, whatever.

Of course.

What do I have to do?

And I think Jesus is pretty clear on that.

Absolutely.

Could not be clearer.

So for a Christian to say, I support violence against other Christians because that's

what Jesus wants, does that strike you as valid, is that, how can that be?

Indeed, you know, and this is why, you know, we always said that, you know, like Christianity

is about bringing people together.

It's about forgiveness, reconciliation, peace building, you know, these are the values

the kind of the core values of Christianity.

And if we fail as Christians to do that, to bring people together, we are God's people,

we are God's children, whoever we may be.

Yes, we have our beliefs, we have where we stand, but we as Christians, we know that

and we have been saying this all along for 2,000 years, Christians have been witnessing

to this truth from the beginning.

And you know, that's why we continue to exist here.

Despite, you know, like the long history, our holy sites are our anchor here in the Holy

day.

So you are a Christian from Nazareth.

Yes.

Jesus is hometown.

Yes.

What did your father do?

You know, my dad was a carpenter.

I knew that.

I just wanted to hear you say, I guess it's over.

You know, but we, we were also like, we, we are fishermen.

So if you ask me what you do for, I hope you that I would be like fishing would be my

amazing.

No, it's just, I mean, you are a Christian from Nazareth, I think Galilee, amazing.

Compare Nazareth, it's Christian population to your childhood to now.

Are there more Christians in Nazareth now or fewer?

Now they are, if they aren't fewer, let me say like 50 years ago, I think then they

have not grown, yes, especially recently, like, you know, in the last maybe two decades,

we have seen like an exodus of Christians even from Nazareth and Galilee in general due

to many reasons.

Yes.

And we are talking now what is proper Israel today.

Now in the West Bank is different story because, you know, of the occupation, there is

another narrative there, but inside Israel, today there are so many pressures, not only

on Christians, Christians or even some Jewish people who are also leaving the country for

different reasons.

Yes.

Yes.

How much aid, how much money the Christians around the world send to Christians living

in Nazareth?

Very minimal.

Very minimal.

Yeah.

How?

Really.

The Anglican Church, of course, we have partners around the world, and they're, especially

like in the States, we have the American friends of the Diocese of Jerusalem, Anglican,

and they're doing fantastic support.

But if you kind of compare the amount of money that comes to the other side, we are

talking about a drop in the ocean.

Really?

Yeah.

Christian churches in the United States send more money to say Jewish settlements in

the West Bank than they do to Christians in Jesus' hometown of Nazareth.

That's not the secret.

That's not the secret.

Everybody knows that.

Yeah.

What about Bethlehem?

Now, Bethlehem is a different challenge there.

I don't know if you have visited Bethlehem before, but you would see that the city is surrounded

by the wall, that separation wall that separates East Jerusalem, from Bethlehem, and the occupation

and the kind of the wall that separates the two countries now, and also measures, huge

measures of restrictions, of movement, and all of that is causing many people to leave

the country.

Now, I think imagine like 100,000 Christians in Bethlehem, let's say 50 years ago or so,

today we have less than 30,000.

Really?

Yeah.

Huge drop.

Do they receive aid from American Christian churches?

Not to my knowledge.

They might receive projects here and there, but you know, like substantial money to keep

their businesses.

You know, I just want you to go now, especially during the war and the Gaza war.

The last two years, go to Bethlehem and see what is happening.

I don't think I could.

The little town of Bethlehem is bleeding right now.

There's no business, no tourists, no visitors.

I don't understand.

So the American Christian church is broadly speaking, the church, Christians in the United

States, is by far the richest in the world and the biggest.

And why wouldn't they send help to Christians in the town where Jesus was born and the

town that he grew up?

You know, I'm sure that you know, people may have different answers, but I think my answer

would be the kind of big answer would be which could be shocking for some people.

That is that they would be concerned that they send the money and it ends up in the hands

of the wrong people, you know, like let's be honest about this.

Well, if there's, let's just say, and I think that's a concern for everybody giving

money to charity, it's certainly a concern for me in general.

But if there's say a church, the church of the Nativity, the one that the IDF shot people

in, I've been there and it's kind of falling apart.

And I remember thinking what, where are the Christians around the world to support the

church of the Nativity on the site where Jesus, their Savior, was born?

Indeed.

And that's why you know, if you don't understand that.

You know, I don't understand that either, but let me tell you something like, you know,

an example, like how charity starts at home.

You know, we know that our King here in Jordan, King Abdullah, has donated substantial amount

of money to the repair of the Nativity and the Holy Supplyker.

And the same thing happened also, partially or to with the Palestinian Authority.

And also there are money that came also from partners from Europe.

And other places as well.

But you know, the amount of money, as you said, like, you know, and the charity that you

think that could be given to the Christian community to enforce and, you know, maintain

its presence in the Holy Land.

You don't see that in ways that you could imagine that sisters and brothers in Christ, siblings

in Christ, around the world, would be giving to their church.

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So I think Americans watching this may be confused to hear that a Muslim king of Jordan

is giving money to Christian holy sites in Israel and the West Bank.

Tell us how that arrangement works.

How would that be a Muslim king's responsibility?

Yeah.

So there's something here in the holy land that has been for a long time.

What we call the status quo or the existing reality.

Especially on holy sites.

On Haram Sharif, many people in the West Holy Temple Mount.

And also in the Holy Sepulchre.

And the holy sites in Jerusalem?

The church of the Holy Sepulchre is the place where Jesus is tuned.

Which is the church of the resurrection.

What we call in Arabic as well.

Can he still call me?

So for a long time, the king of Jordan, under the Hashimite custodianship of holy sites,

the king personally is the custodian of holy sites of Christian and Muslim holy sites

in Jerusalem.

So the king of Jordan is the custodian of both Al-Aqsa and of the church of the Holy Sepulchre.

That's correct.

And that remains the case today.

That remains the case today and it will remain for a long time.

Even though it's extremely difficult for Jordanians to go the 25 miles over there to Jerusalem.

And that's correct.

So I think people like myself and the heads of churches, as well as Al-Aukaf and the sheikhs

in Jerusalem, we will be the manifestation of the reality of the custodianship.

It's just so interesting.

Why does that persist today?

And is that a good arrangement, the status quo that you described?

Of course, it is not only good, but I think for us, it saves the character of Jerusalem

where the three-face, both Christianity, Judaism and Islam, can exist side-by-side without any problems.

Wouldn't it be easier just to hand the custodianship over to the government that runs it,

which is the Israeli government?

It's political capitals in Jerusalem.

That will be partial and it will be exclusive.

How do you think Christian holy sites would do?

And Muslim holy sites would do.

We have, let me give you an example where the Holy Sepulchre, for different reasons,

we, for a long time, during Holy Saturday, which is the Holy Fire, one of the most sacred days

in the Christian calendar.

Yes.

Of course, this is the night before Easter.

Yes.

You know, the restrictions that the police there enforce on pilgrims is unprecedented.

Something that, you know, we always, please, please, you know, let the pilgrims come and endure.

Now this is happening?

No, this is happening every year.

Now, yes, of course.

Last year.

So, just to be clear, the Israeli government is preventing Christians from celebrating Easter,

in Jerusalem?

You know, yes, they are preventing Christians and pilgrims to celebrate Easter.

You know, and the claim is according to the police there for safety reasons.

You know, but we're telling them, like, you know, for almost next, the Church of the Holy

Sepulchre was built in 300 something, okay?

Now, that's 1700 years ago.

And we have always, you know, celebrated the Holy Fire.

We always celebrated in the welcome Easter.

We didn't hear of somebody get banned or somebody got their Christian pilgrims or not.

Yes.

Indeed.

And then, but you know, now, under the kind of Israeli law for safety procedures, they are

restricting the number of Christians going into the Holy Sepulchre, instead of 10,000,

they are restricting that sometimes to 1,500.

And by negotiation, you can get them close to, like, 3,000.

This is by miracle, you know, if you're lucky.

You know, again, you know, for them, for the to be to be fair, they're saying that for

safety reasons, we're not allowing people in.

And this is the discussion every other time.

There's some more restrictions on Jewish religions, absorbences in Jerusalem.

In Israel, generally, they are being some, they've been an incident in the North in Merone,

where people, like, has a community west of the Britain, a very famous holy site.

Yes.

And the bridge collapsed and 150 people died.

And since that time, they were restricting more and more public worship.

But I will tell you an incident as well, you know, like where on the Mount of Table,

which is the Transfiguration Mountain, that the Holy Orthodox Church celebrates every

year.

Also, there have been restrictions there because of safety, not to allow pilgrims to go

to the Holy Mountain for the celebration of Transfiguration.

This is the fourth year in rule that they're not allowed to pilgrim to go up for the celebration.

Again, under safety restrictions.

Have there been, in your lifetime, safety problems with Christian celebrating Eastern

Jerusalem?

Not to my knowledge.

So the U.S. ambassador to Israel, my Quckabee, is a Christian minister.

What has he done to help Christian celebrate Eastern in Jerusalem?

We are in touch with the American embassy.

And we are also trying to kind of ask Huckabee and also the staff in the embassy to help the

Christian community talk to Israel in order to enlarge the numbers of people who celebrate

Eastern.

You know, sometimes they are successful in raising the number, sometimes they are not successful.

But again, the issue, again, this is an internal matter.

Have you spoken?

Right.

The ambassador is very involved in internal matters in Israel, of course.

Have you spoken to a ambassador, Huckabee?

I'm pleased with him from afar, you know, but you know, other heads of churches have spoken

to him, yes.

But he hasn't called you.

He hasn't called me a person, I know.

Have American politicians called, since the U.S. is funding a lot of this, have American

politicians, Christian politicians called to ask you what they can do to help Christians

in Jerusalem?

You know, we reach out, they reach out, you know, they are especially talking about different

issues.

Like, let me give you an example.

You know, I'm trying to kind of get to my hospital in Gaza, for example, and I'm

trying to kind of get permission to go there, but I'm not allowed to go to your hospital

in Gaza.

Yes.

Why?

You see, I have an Israeli citizenship because I come from Nazareth, so I'm an Israeli

citizen.

You are an Israeli.

Oh, yes.

But, you know, at the same time, so basically, I'm not allowed in according to their calculations.

Why?

So, I try to ask, you know, the kind of our friends from the American embassy and other

places, you know, in order to intervene, but the answer is no.

So how could he hasn't helped you get to your Christian hospital in Gaza?

I don't blame, how could he be for this, you know, but again, you know, I know you have

to be diplomatic.

I'm just surprised that someone who, you know, is a minister, isn't doing more for Christians

in this region.

Yeah, again, but again, it's about my safety, I guess, your safety, would you feel unsafe

going to Gaza?

Absolutely not.

I've been to Gaza many, many times.

And actually, two days before the war, I was there with bishops, you know, we visited

the hospital and I would visit, I've been trying to visit the hospital, you know, others

were successful, like other heads of churches managed to go there, both patriarchs, but

there I haven't unfortunately.

It's a Christian hospital.

It's an Anglican episcopal, a Christian hospital.

What is the name of it?

Al-Ahli Arab Hospital, what kind of condition is it in?

It is now kind of a new condition that operates on minimal capacity, I don't know, I'm sure

that people have been following, I don't know how many people know about this, but it

was hit at least eight times during the war.

It was bombed eight times?

Yeah.

Why?

You know, there are different accusations, why did it happen?

You know, I kind of suspect, you know, suspicion about, like, activities in the hospital,

and every time we asked for people to kind of prove, you know, what was happening there,

so that we, we at least know what is going on in our hospital, but every time we hear

nothing.

And you know, unfortunately, people killed in those parliaments, you know, on two incidents,

they've been two big explosions.

The first one happened only two weeks after the, or even less than two weeks from the beginning

on the 17th of October, 2003, where huge rocket fell, and it became reacredicontroversy,

Israel accused Islamic she had for a mistrocketed missile, you know, in Gaza, they said, no,

this was Israeli rocket that came in, and they were two narratives at that time.

Anyway, but this is, this is the kind of thing that we know the answer now, no, I don't,

I don't know the answer.

People asked me, and I said, like, do I look like a soldier to you that to tell you what

happened there?

What's your government?

You were born in the country, and you can't get a straight answer about your hospital.

No.

No, it was the answer was that, you know, it was the

mistrocketed missile.

But it was bombed seven more times.

Yeah.

Do we know who did that?

No.

The other ones, you know, Israelis did that, they didn't, they didn't comment on that.

Did they not know it was a hospital?

They know it was a hospital.

Why would they bomb a hospital?

A Christian hospital.

Again, you know, but as I said, you know, they, they say when they do that, that there

is suspicion of terrorist activities in the hospital.

You can tell the people here.

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How many people have been killed in Gaza?

Now we know that, you know, I think I just read recently that even the government admitted

that there's 70,000 who were killed, which they didn't before.

But I need to kind of, again, my sources are not kind of 100% but at least from our perspective,

we have heard and we have seen that there are 70,000 people who are killed.

Many of them are children and women, not terrorists according to Israeli categories.

Do we have any idea what percentage were women and children?

You know, there are statistics up there, but I assume the vast majority are women and children.

Is it possible to know who can go to Gaza?

At some point, I think it's fair to ask, like, what happened over the last couple of years

in Gaza?

Are we ever going to know?

You know, like, you know, I'm sure that we will know in one way or the other.

Again, I think the catastrophe that happened there, nothing will heal.

I just kind of, just by seeing the amount of destruction and death that happened there,

it just breaks one's heart.

Yes, there are no words.

Again, you know, I'm sure that new people will know, like, who did it and why they did it and how did it come?

But for us, you know, the bottom line, there are people who are suffering, there are people who are dying.

And that's the result of violence, you know, and which is devastating for us.

How are you treated in Israel?

Depending where you live, where you are, where you're walking.

So I think, you know, in many places in Israel, where you are respected, there's freedom of movement.

I can go in most places.

There are places that are restricted to any civilian, if you know what I mean.

Yes, but you know, in general, I can go in many places, you know, if I'm walking in the old city, for example,

if I'm in my suit, all good and well, you know, of course, the mosaic is so beautiful there.

People living together, walking together, you would enjoy the suit.

But sometimes, if I'm wearing my cross and my casak, I could be treated differently by some groups.

How are you treated?

I could, maybe it could spat out, for example, if someone ever spit at you.

Yes, really, yeah, more than once, more than once, yeah.

Why?

I just, I think, you know, I asked this question, why?

And in many cases, I have seen that, you know, like in many schools, in the Jewish sector,

who have, this is the answer that I see, who have bad flashes of memories, of persecution,

the cross reminds them of persecution and expulsion and what have you.

So they're teaching their children that the cross is a sign of persecution and they spit on Christians?

Yeah.

And you know, we know that, you know, there are so many, not many, but there are some.

And there's our French groups that we have, as heads of churches, spoke about, when we,

when there's vandalism of churches, when there is a spitting at clergy, when there is doing nasty things to clergy,

what kind of nasty things?

And I've kind of, say, that on the air.

I don't know, I say, but they're doing like really shameful things, you know, in front of church doors.

Really?

Yeah, yeah.

I'm saying, I'm being, being caught on camera many times.

Oh, you act like this, everyone knows this.

I don't think many people in America know this, to Christian churches and Christian clergy.

Yeah.

And again, you know, these are like French groups of people who are radicals, you know, who live in Jerusalem.

Their main mission is to purify Jerusalem from infidel's Christians.

That's their mission.

And they say it out loud, it's on their website, you know, it's nothing, it's nothing heading about.

Are you talking about al-Qaeda or?

No, no, I'm talking about Jewish radical groups, settler groups, yeah.

Do you face vandalism from Islamic groups in Jerusalem?

No, not to my note, there's no, we don't have, we don't have in Jerusalem?

Yes.

No.

So, in the United States, after 9-11, we were told, and I think it was true, that there were these madrasas,

these schools, Islamic schools that were producing radicalism, true radicalism, against the infidel, Christians and Jews.

It sounds like something similar is going on in Jerusalem now, and you're the target of it.

Can you talk, I mean, that's clearly bad.

Is there anyone you can talk to about this?

Yeah, we've talked to the police, we've talked to the government, and there are restrictions, you know,

one thing about, you know, this, you know, that we were said that told, you know, that

spitting on people is not a charge, now we need to have a law that forbids this, or there will be

a kind of punishment to somebody who spits, or something like that, so there's no law.

So, the people brought, if you piss charges, they bring them in, and they release the next day.

There's no law in Israel against spitting on Christians?

No, I'm spitting in general, not on Christians, you know, like,

but you can walk up and spit in someone's face for religious reasons.

No, that's something different, and the spitting doesn't happen, like, you know, directly at you,

so like if I'm passing, yeah, and they would be spitting, like, in front of you, like,

but it's directed to you, but not on you person, they don't touch you.

They don't touch you.

How common is that?

I don't know, I don't have statistics, but in your experience, you live there.

Well, quite often, you know, like, it happens, you know, I don't say on daily basis,

but, you know, it happens quite often.

Even an Israeli channel did actually one time, a kind of a secret investigation,

and they dressed somebody in a castle with a cross, and they walked into the old city

with hidden cameras.

And, you know, they caught one, like, right there, on camera.

And then they spoke about it, in Israeli channels.

Good for them.

Yeah, of course, you know, they name some, sometimes quite often, they name things, but again,

nothing happens.

That's the problem, like, you know, and that's why we have insisted on talking about reconciliation

and building trust within the community, you know, calling the rabbis and, you know,

the imams and the Christian leaders, you know, to teach their children about tolerance,

about acceptance, and to refrain from incitement, you know, an exclusion and alienation and demonizing

the other.

No, Jerusalem is such a beautiful place, it's a sacred place.

Yes, it is.

But we have, you know, like, groups, and talking about, you know, like, you know, extremists,

you know, like, in every religion, there is extremists, of course.

And then we're not saying that, you know, like, only one, our Christian history is not,

you know, like, neither clear or pure of, we've had some Christian extremists for sure.

Indeed.

But, you know, that's why, you know, today, I think in the 21st century, it's important

that we reconsider a lot of our views, even as religious people, how we view other people

around us.

Yes.

And I wish, that's my prayer, you know, we have always said, you know, like the Holy Land,

the Middle East, Christians, Muslims, and Jews lived together here for centuries.

Yes.

This is not something that knew that we're trying to understand, no, to how to live together

or how to manage our relationships, you know, but, you know, unfortunately, I don't want

to kind of accuse anybody, but outside forces have caused us to fight among ourselves.

I've noticed.

Unfortunately, that's what that's how it is.

So, has the extremism in Jerusalem, I mean, just to restate, you were born in the state

of Israel.

You're an Israeli citizen, so you would know, as it become more pronounced, is there more

extremism now, do you think?

There's more extremism, extremism, and I can see, and that's on every side.

Yeah.

That happens here.

The thing that, you know, the more you have extremist group on one side, of course,

you have the response of other extremists on the other side.

Yes.

So, it happens all across the communities, unfortunately.

But right now, it seems like there is no Christian extremism.

I haven't seen any Christian terrorism groups here.

I wouldn't say like terrorist groups, Christian, but, you know, there are some who have extremist

views.

Yes.

We see pockets coming up every now and then.

I'm sure.

But we, as heads of churches, always say and talk to our children.

You know, you don't forget that you are Christian, and you have to abide by our Christian faith.

You know, like any, any engagement in violence or military or incitement is something that

not speak about our identity or our faith.

To Christian serve in the idea, there are very, very few who do not, not many.

Why?

Why they do serve?

Why don't they serve?

No, because they see themselves as, first of all, it's not compulsory for them.

So it's not compulsory for Arab citizens of Israel to serve in the army, and therefore

they don't.

But they are very few who do.

And again, you know, let's remember that the Arabs inside Israel, they are Palestinians

by origin, at least they are Palestinians, you know, and imagine, like, you know, I

served Nablus, which is sheikh em, in the West Bank, I don't know, the city in the

northern part of the West Bank.

And I was responsible for two congregations there, and I got married from Nablus.

So my wife is Palestinian.

And imagine, like, you know, if I, you know, I would be like a soldier in the West Bank

rather than a priest in the West Bank, how would I treat my own people?

Like, it doesn't make sense, you know, for me it's just to think about the matter is

just kind of makes me, I don't know.

I think maybe what's happening, a lot of attention in the United States has been paid to Gaza,

some attention.

What's happening in the West Bank?

In the West Bank, I think, you know, and we have seen over the past few weeks, especially,

and actually not only a few weeks, you know, during, even during the war, the escalation

of violence of settlers in the West Bank has risen drastically.

And they're not only to kind of Muslim neighborhoods and villages, but also to Christian villages.

Really?

Yeah.

You know, you give me an example?

Yeah, I can give you an example of, the two recent examples is one in, in the town of

Taipei, where actually you mentioned the ambassador, Hacabi, he himself went there to visit

the village after these attacks, of settlers burning and graffiti on walls and going into

these farms to harass farmers who are Christian.

And recently also in Bizeit, near Ramallah, where we had an attack of settlers on the woman,

they hit her with a stone head, and then they arrested her son after that.

Why did they arrest her son?

Because he tried to defend her like his mother.

And because of that, you know, he was arrested.

And these are Christians?

Yeah.

Yes, Christian.

How many U.S. administration officials weighed in on this?

Did Ambassador Hacabi say anything about this?

No, he definitely said something about Taipei.

I haven't seen anything about the last incident, but he went there in person, actually,

and visited the police.

At the most recent attack where a Christian woman was attacked by settlers with a rock to

the head and her son was arrested for trying to defend her, Ambassador Hacabi hasn't said

anything about that.

I didn't see anything myself, but he could look.

You would know since you're the Archbishop of Jerusalem, I think.

I'm sorry, I just want to be very clear about his shameful anti-Christian behavior.

I just want to be very clear about what I'm saying.

What Ambassador Hacabi is doing is shameful, and he's going to have to answer for it.

That's my opinion, you don't have to ratify that, but it's shocking to me.

So more broadly, why would these attacks be accelerating?

Why would there be more attacks now?

I think the IDF and the Israeli government persecutes those who do these shameful actions,

which I call evil and sin, actually, is the more they do.

That's the norm, unfortunately.

Let me just close by contrasting your experience in your country, Israel, where you live, with

the experience in Jordan.

Are there attacks on Christians in Jordan?

That question makes me laugh as a fool.

In the United States, we were told that Christians are murdered in the Middle East, but Muslims

this is a country run by a Muslim king.

So it would be interesting to know how many Christians are driven off their land here.

You know, quite often, I see on the TV, or even in many reports, many people in the sea

are in the States sometimes, a few people who see us in the States sometimes in Jerusalem

or other places, they will tell us, as Arabs, please go to Syria, go to Jordan, go to why

you're staying here.

The author's question, to you, to me and to others, you know, any Arab, many people would

say like, why are you staying here, they just go to an Arab country?

They say that to your face?

Yeah, they would say that to my face.

And honestly speaking, you know, sometimes, you know, and I'm saying that sarcastically,

of course, you know, I think about it and I think they are right because you know, when

I come to Jordan, I feel more at home than being in other places inside, you know, in

my own home country, honestly.

How long has your family been in Jesus' hometown of Nazareth?

For I, you know, I wish I had my family three, going back to the time of Jesus, but I

think, you know, you remind me of a question, if I may paraphrase your question, I said,

and people, I tell people that I'm Christian from Nazareth and they tell me, oh, nice,

this is really cool.

So when were you converted?

So I tell them 2,000 years ago, that's my answer, like, you know, come on, Christianity

started in places like the baptism site here, like Bethlehem, like Nazareth where the angel

appeared to Mary, Jesus is from Nazareth.

He is from Nazareth, Mary is from Nazareth.

But you know, so that's, it's ignorance, again, it's ignorance.

And sometimes it's deliberate, intentional, ignorance even.

It's all pretty amazing.

Does that happen to you when you're in Jordan?

Because there are, of course, holy sites here, we're at one right now.

You know, again, I say, like, I feel, I feel blessed to where I am.

When I travel in my own diocese, I go to Lebanon, I come here to Jordan, my other home.

I'm also a Jordanian, I consider myself a Jordanian citizen, by virtue of being responsible

in this place for my community.

But honestly speaking, like whenever I come to this place, Jordan, Lebanon even, I feel

like, you know, this is my home.

I feel myself like fulfilled because I know that I'm free in this country.

I can be myself without being worried that I would be spat out or like that.

But Jordan is 98% Muslim.

Yes.

But you feel free or here?

I feel, yeah, of course, at this point in time, yes, I do feel free.

Do you have a message to Christians in the United States?

No, I have a message just to say that, you know, my dear sisters and brothers, in Christ

and in humanity.

No, I want you to think about these places as treasures.

Now these places, Jordan, Palestine, you know, the Galilee inside what Israel today, these

are places that actually embraced the descent and the incarnation of our faith as Christians.

We need to preserve these places.

We need to support the people here.

Not only Christians, I'm not saying like we need to be only looking at Christians, but

supporting people who live here because your support, you know, ensures the character of

these places to be a safe home for all the people who live here, whether they are Jews,

Christians, Muslims.

That's right.

Because we are all God's children.

We have been living together here for a long time.

And please, you know, I just want to say a small example.

If you want to pray for whoever whom your heart loves, okay, please don't divide us by

your prayers.

Don't further divide us by your prayers.

We want you to pray for all the people of the Holy Land.

Thank you.

I appreciate it.

Thank you very much.

So thank you for doing this.

One of the reasons I wanted to talk to you was even I was amazed to discover how many

prominent, truly prominent Christian families there are in Jordan, a lot, and you're from

one of the most prominent.

What's it like to be a Christian in an overwhelmingly Muslim country here?

Well, you know, Christians here in Jordan have always felt, you know, really one and the

same with the Muslims in Jordan.

And it goes back thousands of years, really, Tucker.

So it's always felt like we're really one and the same.

Islam is very much an integral part of our culture, as Christians here.

Yeah, we feel very comfortable here as Christians, absolutely.

So you went to school, a number of very prominent schools in the United States, there's been

a lot of time living in the U.S., so you know that most Americans are going to be surprised

to hear that.

Oh, of course.

I mean, you know, a lot of my American friends when I, when I first met them, they were surprised

that, you know, I'm Christian from Jordan.

And I'm like, what do you mean?

I mean, this is where Christianity started, right?

This is, we are the ancient Christians.

Yes.

It's a bit upsetting for me.

Jesus was baptized right there.

Right here.

I mean, this is a very special place that the baptism site, it's very close to our hearts

as Christians, not just here, but all over the world.

And I can, can I say a little bit something about this site because we're here at Tucker?

Okay, well.

Yeah, so this, this baptism site, I mean, what, what most Christians are out of the world,

maybe sometimes we got, is here we had the clearest manifestation in the Bible of the

Holy Trinity.

Right here at Tucker, where you and I are today, you know, if you remember from Bible the

voice of God.

Yes.

And he said, you know, this is when Jesus was being baptized, but I'm saying, John, this

is my son of my well pleased, I think.

Yes.

And then the son, right, the Holy Spirit in the shape of a dove, this happened here.

And Christ's official mission, right, started in Jordan.

So you can actually make the claim, this is not, you know, this is a biblical theological

claim that the mission of Christianity, salvation history, started right here.

So of course, there are Christians in Jordan.

And it's just a very special place to be.

I hope you've had some time too.

I've had an amazing time.

I've been, I've been to this country before and I, and I've always felt comfortable

here.

And if you say that, in the West, people are either incredulous or they accuse you of being

a secret Muslim or she had a huge time, I think I'm not at all.

But I'm really struck that you said, Islam is an integral part of the culture for Christians

here.

What does that mean?

Well, look, it's, the faith traditions are so similar.

It's, it's, it's remarkable.

I mean, you know, if you look at the Qur'an, for example, the Qur'an is a, is Jesus

who's mentioned 25 plus times in the Qur'an.

And he was mentioned under different words, different names.

So Aisa is, is what the, it's his, his name is in Arabic.

The word of God, that's actually from the Qur'an, the Messiah, the Messiah.

He was also Ibn Mariam, son of Mariam.

The other thing that you might find interesting is also the Virgin Mary, right?

I mean, she was mentioned 30 plus times in the Qur'an.

She's revered, right?

Actually, she was the only woman whose name was actually mentioned in the Qur'an.

No other name of a woman has been, I mean, there was, there was, really, absolutely.

Mariams is the only name that's, uh, named by name in the Qur'an as a woman.

As the mother of Jesus.

As the mother of Jesus.

There is a whole chapter in the Qur'an just, uh, dedicated for the Virgin Mary.

So you can see, and of course, the same, the same prophets, many of the same prophets,

whether it's Elijah or Moses or Abraham or, you know, they're in the Qur'an, um, as they

are in the, you know, the New Testament and the Old Testament.

So the faith traditions are very similar.

So that's why the Muslims are actually very accepting of the Christian faith traditions.

They are encompassing of the Christian faith traditions.

So yeah, I mean, you're saying this as a Christian.

I'm saying this is a, as a Christian here in Jordan.

Absolutely.

I'm in a disadvantage because I have not read the Qur'an.

I'll just say that.

But we have been taught for 25 years since 911 that Islam is inherently hostile to Christianity,

but you don't believe.

Totally disagree with that.

I think hostility is, uh, you know, is a human thing?

Yes.

You know, you find, uh, humans on all sides of the spectrum that are, you know, compassionate

or hostile.

That's a common thing across humanity, across the world.

But to demonize one religion to say everyone in that religion is hostile is, is an atrocity

Tucker.

It's absolutely not true.

I agree with you.

Did you experience discrimination growing up here as a Christian?

Never.

I've never felt discriminated against as a Christian.

Uh, of course, there's people that don't sometimes understand, uh, Christian religious tradition.

And there are sometimes questions and there are sometimes theological, of course, differences.

And, you know, you can have a discussion about that and argue about that, right?

But discrimination in terms of, you know, I feel at the disadvantage to be a Christian

here.

Absolutely not.

So your family, I think I understand this is at the level of prominence that you're

going to have to deal with the government at a certain point.

Yeah.

Okay.

Of course.

Yeah.

It is a small country.

It's a monarchy.

You've never had any problems dealing with the government as a Christian.

No.

No, actually, that's a, that's a great question.

Um, so Christians are very well represented here as you can imagine through the really

part of the, the social fabric of the economy and the political environment.

So Christians are represented, you know, in the Senate, in parliament, uh, in government,

in the military, in the private sector, even though we are a minority, right?

But the representation is, is everywhere, uh, a tiny minority, right?

We are like probably two, three percent at the stage.

I'm just guessing, but it seems like if you're two or three percent of the population,

you, you seem disproportionately represented among the affluent.

Um, possibly, I think maybe minorities everywhere on the world.

That's the case.

Yes, it is.

Actually, that is true.

You think about it, right?

Uh, but, uh, I don't know, I've never measured that, I don't know if there are statistics.

But that's never been a problem.

I guess because you do see minority groups around the world, as you said, you know, the

Indians in Uganda in the 70s, aren't, name a group, but the minority group often is

disproportionately successful and then they are persecuted for that.

Right.

And that has not happened here.

No, absolutely not.

And there's a reason I think it's why it's, it is, um, I'll tell you, I mean, I was thinking

about sort of why is Jordan a special sort of, uh, model for that, right, of coexistence

of interfaith harmony.

I think there's three things, uh, Tucker, and if these three things are there, you know,

Christian minorities in the Holy Land, they will, they will thrive.

Uh, number one is we have constitutional rights as equal citizens.

It's in the Jordanian constitution.

Um, you know, so Christians and Muslims here have the same rights, complete equality.

Uh, when it comes to even, uh, matters relating to Christian affairs, whether it's marriages

and, you know, you know, even some civil affairs, there are Christian courts that are different

from the Shariah courts that there are for Muslims.

So there's in that sense, there's, you know, this sort of coexistence, but when it comes

to, of course, civil and commercial and all of, all of those kinds of laws, those apply

to all of us equally here in Jordan.

So constitutional rights are protected.

That's number one.

So this is not, so Christianity is an official religion here.

Absolutely.

I mean, yeah, there's in the constitution, there's freedom of worship, uh, freedom of, of

religion in the constitution.

So this is, so very importantly, if you want to protect Christian minorities or any minority

in that regard anywhere in the world, constitutional rights have to be established and they're

established.

They were established here from the very start, right?

Uh, you know, when the, uh, the Jordan tribes and the Hashemites agreed to form a, uh, a

constitution and, uh, they've been there since then.

So I would say that's, that I want the first thing, the second thing, which I really think

is important is stability, right?

And the moment you, um, you don't have stability, the first to suffer are the minorities.

Are the weak are the weak.

And you know, stability is some important economic stability, political stability, security

stability.

So I'm so sacred actually to, to, to ensure that there's stability in the region.

I would say the last thing is leadership, you know, we're very fortunate here to have,

you know, as majesticking up the land, Hashemite leadership, I mean, truly really tremendously

fortunate because the Hashemites have always been about interfaith dialogue, discourse,

meritocracy, compassion, mercy.

So I think when you have, you know, great leadership, stability and constitutional rights,

yeah, that Christian minority can thrive and that's what we have here.

And my job is not to talk of Jordan, but I've always wondered in all of your neighbors,

I spent time in all of your, your neighboring countries, always say the same thing.

How do you have this country with really no energy resources?

It's not inherently rich.

Yeah.

Absorb all these refugees from the creation of Israel in 1948, I mean, enormous number,

and then lose a huge part of its territory in 67, absorb more refugees, and then absorb

still more refugees through the years, including from the Civil War in Syria.

And now, apparently, are being pushed to absorb still more refugees from Gaza.

Yeah.

I don't think any country's ever been under this kind of pressure.

This is for the outside of the perspective anyway.

How do you say stable in the middle of all of that?

That's a great question.

I honestly took, I asked myself that all the time.

And I think, you know, part of the answer is, it's just the culture.

Here, it's a very collectivist culture, it's a very tribal culture.

You know, for example, the latest immigration of Syrian refugees we had, I think, up to

1.5 million Syrian refugees during the Arab Spring.

This is a small country, isn't it?

Yeah.

That's on a pro-Otah basis.

It's like 40 million people moving into the U.S. overnight, right?

And that's the scale of the, I mean, can you imagine 40 million people, all of Canada moving

into the U.S. looking for jobs?

I'm laughing, but, and I should say for people who don't follow this because it's a boutique

question is not going on in the world, but this is interesting to me.

This is all because of your geographic location.

It's like, you didn't ask for this, you just happened to be surrounded by these larger

powers.

It decide they can use your country as like a place to store the products of their

wars.

Yeah.

I mean, it's because it's stable.

So, you know, people say, you know, just move it to Jordan and let them deal with it.

And to be honest, it's been difficult because the host community, the Jordanians, I mean,

they've had to share resources with the refugees, they've had to share jobs, you know.

We have very limited resources as a talker would be, they financial water resources and

it's your resources, you know.

I've sidetracked my own question.

So the original question was, how do you absorb more refugees over the past 80 years

than you have people, a lot more, and not fall apart?

Look, a lot of it is, again, Hashemite leadership.

It's taking care of their refugees, using our limited resources to support them.

And my understanding is we, especially with the last sort of Syrian refugees, we had a

lot of support from the international community in the beginning, but over time, you know,

there is donor fatigue over time, the news moves on.

And then the host community is stuck with the problem.

And then we have to depend on our own resources.

And obviously, a lot of it is just, honestly, us, it's a local tax revenue government support.

Of course, we do get some support still from the international donors, from the US government,

from other places around the world, so we're grateful for that.

But yeah, it's something to let the host community deal with this problem, because sort

of the new cycle has moved on to something else.

And that's a problem.

It's a question I'm interested in because, from the American perspective, our country

feels swamped with refugees, but no country, maybe in history, has been swamped by refugees

as you are.

So it's just interesting to see how you've handled it.

Yeah.

I think people feel very much like, you know, the refugees coming in here, there's this

moral sort of, you know, understanding that we have to take care of our own.

And just to give you a story, maybe, from Jordan's history, if you want to go back even to

the time of the earliest Christians, right, because we're the ancient Christians, right?

So we remember these stories.

One of the Christian holy sites here in Jordan is called Pella.

I don't know if you know, but Pella.

So that was a city in the old Roman decopolis, right?

The ten cities.

The ten cities.

The ten cities.

They're referred to in the New Testament.

They're referred to in the New Testament, exactly.

So Pella is in Jordan.

It's a beautiful site.

It's well preserved.

That was the site of the first Christian refugees coming out of Jerusalem.

You know, before Jerusalem was destroyed in the 70 AD by General Titus.

Yes.

So the Christians moved to Pella, actually.

It's technically, arguably, right, according to archaeology, the first Christian refugee

haven.

And that's in Jordan.

And I think this has been our history.

That's, I did not know that.

Yeah.

We're the land of refugees.

We are very much the land of refugees.

And yeah, that's an historian.

It's the same with the Iraq.

And I think when we talk about, you know, the Iraqi refugees as well, a wild back Muslim

and Christian moved here.

And going back to sort of the point on stability, Tucker, so, you know, when you have,

either as U.S. intervention, as you're called in Iraq, at the time.

I do recall.

Yes.

Yeah.

I heard about that.

At the time of Saddam Hussein.

And then the thing is, whenever you lose, whenever sort of there is a vacuum that vacuum

is always filled, and sometimes it's filled with, you know, bad elements.

So Al-Qaeda filled that vacuum in Iraq after 2003.

And then you had, which then, of course, later became ISIS, right, down the line.

So all of a sudden, you had Muslim and Christians who were targeted.

A lot of them came into Jordan.

And, you know, I know a priest, he specializes in really taking care of the, especially

both Muslim and Christian refugees, by the way, there is no selectivity there.

They are here temporarily.

They see themselves as being here temporarily, until they can immigrate to other parts of

the world.

So they receive financial assistance, schooling, a lot of it is provided either by the state

or even fundraised by the churches, the local churches, until they are able to immigrate

to other parts of the world, where there is more economic prosperity and stability and

jobs.

So you're a Christian, you are 25 miles away from the most famous and important church

in Christendom, and you've been one time in 50 years?

Yeah, I need, I mean, obviously, it's, first of all, I can't just go there, I need

the visa as a Jordanian, it's something that you have to apply for.

And how hard is it to get?

Yeah, it's a process, and you have to apply, it's, I can't recall how difficult it was

to get the visa at the time, but also, you know, there are some security considerations.

What does that mean?

I mean, I, you know, you see what's happening there now, how comfortable would Christians

be or non-Christians even visiting the Holy Sites now?

I'm totally confused, those Holy Sites don't belong to the state of Israel, which is

a political entity of very recent creation.

Those Holy Sites are the center of our religion.

They long predate by thousands of years, the creation of the state of Israel.

So why wouldn't Christians, any Christian have a right to visit his own church?

Yeah, I agree, that's my perspective as the person who's paying for all this, so.

I agree with you, I think, I think there's an angle I'd like to focus on here, so, you

know, the Hashemites are very much the custodians of the Christian and the Muslim sites

in Jerusalem.

I think maybe that, if you allow me to, I think that's something that people don't realize

is that a lot of the restoration work that happens there is very much funded personally

by the king.

I mean, the tomb of Jesus Christ in the Holy Sepulchre was restored by personal donations

from King Abdallah, and it's, it's a-

Wait, what?

Absolutely, yeah.

The tomb of Jesus was restored by the Muslim king of Jordan?

Yeah, I mean, the Muslim king of Jordan-

It's kind of a surprise ending to the story, I have to say, what are you thinking?

He's a direct descendant of the prophet Muhammad, right?

And he's the one restoring the tomb of Jesus Christ, and I think that's this interfaith

story.

That's true?

It is true.

There's another story on the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

I think it's, I mean, it shows you just how old these traditions are in the region and

how welcoming it used to be to people from all across all faiths, be they Jewish or

Christian or Muslim, right, in the past.

So since, I think a thousand years ago, since Salahedin or Saladin, right, the keys to

the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, okay, did not belong to any of the Christian dominations

because they couldn't agree amongst themselves, right?

They're meaning the orthodox, the Catholic-

Ethiopian, yeah.

Like, who's going to have the key to the Church, right?

And actually, that key was handed to, at the time, Salahedin, and even today, those keys

are handed to a Muslim family.

It's, I think, the Sabi family of Jerusalem.

They opened the church in the morning, you know, and they closed the church at night.

So that's the kind of sort of, I mean, these are the stories we grew up with as Christians

in the region, as Muslims in the region, even as are Jews, right, from the region.

This is sort of the faith and the common faith and cultural tradition we grew up with here.

So a lot of the stuff that we see today is very new.

These are lines drawn in the sand by colonial powers that really sort of destroyed that

social cohesion and the social fabric that existed here.

My complete outsider perspective, at the time, when the official capital of the state of

Israel moved from Tel Aviv, a city of recent creation, to Jerusalem, a city that has noted

long predates the state of Israel, was that Jerusalem changed from an international holy site

to a kind of government garrison run by a city state, run by a nation state.

And that's probably not good for the Christians.

Do you get it's fair?

Yeah, I think Jerusalem belongs to all people, right?

It surely doesn't belong to BB.

It's not his.

He didn't make it.

None of those buildings was built by the government of Israel.

Sorry.

So, but now it kind of feels like it belongs to BB.

Is it, again, this is my perspective from thousands of miles away, but...

Yeah, I mean, this is a city that belongs to all people around the world.

This is a holy city, especially people of the Abrahamic religions that you see, right?

I mean, another story on that is, I mean, my grandfather, he was a merchant from Salt.

He started...

Where is that?

It's actually sort of used to be the old capital here in Jordan.

It's very close to here, very close to Amman as well.

It's an old city as well, Ottoman city, but also Roman city.

Originally, the world is saltless, anyway, Roman city.

But he used to...

He started the trade between Salt and Jerusalem when he was 13 years old.

At the time, it was, again, Ottoman Empire, so you could move around, right?

Damascus and Beirut and Jerusalem, and that's what the merchants used to do.

And remember, and he said, and I asked him always, it's like,

the first merchant he met in Jerusalem, the first products he acquired in Salt was in Jerusalem.

I'm like, what was it like when you visited there?

This is in the 1930s.

In the 1930s or late 20s, I'm guessing.

He said, look, it's amazing.

I'm like, what do you mean?

I'm like, well, you know, there were the Muslims, the Jews, and the Christians together

in the streets playing back common, you know, just one community.

And you can't tell the difference.

You can't tell the difference.

And yeah, that's what they're all Arabs.

Most of them are Arabs at the touch, right?

So that's sort of the Jerusalem I hear about.

That's the Jerusalem I remember.

That's the Jerusalem that I think all of us long for is,

you know, a united Jerusalem, one that's united for all faiths and, you know,

the Jews, the Christians, and the Muslims.

And I think I hope I'm grateful that we will get there one day, Tucker.

It's just interesting, and you know this, because he spends so much time in the United States,

that I don't think it would enter the minds of most Americans

that a Christian could be better treated here in Jordan than in Israel.

I mean, I see the stories of how Christians are suffering in Israel,

especially the Palestinian Christians.

I haven't had the unfortunate experience of going through that suffering.

But yeah, I don't think it's just the Christians.

I think, you know, the occupation is an equal opportunity for the Christians.

I don't think it's primarily the Christians.

But what makes it galling from an American perspective, I am American.

And I see everything through the lens of the United States and its own interests,

is that America is paying for this.

Yeah.

And America is a majority Christian country.

So, I mean, we can all have different views about what our foreign policy ought to be,

but I don't think many Americans are in favor of a foreign policy that oppresses their fellow Christians.

I hope not.

I hope not.

I hope not.

But you see the point.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

I think, I mean, my advice would be to the Christians that really care in the US is,

talk to us.

Talk to the ancient Christians, you know, we've been here since Christ.

We're here.

Don't just listen to the DC experts, you know.

So you don't, they don't reach out to you?

No, in fact, this, I think what I'm sharing with you today is something that's novel, right?

This is not an narrative I don't think.

I mean, that you're here, right, in the US a lot.

Ever.

I feel shame listening to you, and I rarely feel shame, but I do feel shame listening to you

that I didn't know more about this because I am a Christian, and I think we have an obligation

to know what our tax dollars do to our fellow Christians.

And I just haven't spent enough time thinking about it, and I think it's very odd that

Christians in Jordan and in Israel aren't receiving help from Christians in the West.

Do you think that?

I do.

I do.

I think it's odd.

And going back to sort of why the Jordanian sort of experience is unique.

Remember those three things?

Yes.

Stability is one of them.

If the Christians in the US and in the West, right, they really cared about sort of the minority

Christian communities here in the Holy Not.

So if they really do, and if they don't, you know, they have to really think about why

they don't.

Oh, I agree.

And I assume most of them do, right?

And if they do, they really have to think about stability.

And this is important to mention, Tucker, but possibly the most destabilizing thing happening

in the region, right, is the situation in Israel, Palestine.

Without a just resolution, a just resolution for the situation of the Palestinians there,

it's just, it's just, you know, it's going to be even more destabilizing for communities.

In Palestine and Jordan, you know, across the region, especially in the States.

I mean, 9-11, if you believe the 9-11 report was committed by people who are mad about

American foreign policy decisions in this region, right here.

So, you know, you fund mass murder in Gaza, and there's no blowback to you.

I think there's probably going to be, wouldn't you think?

Yeah, I mean, look, there's, yeah, US intervention in the region, there's really positive stuff,

and there's negative stuff, right?

It's positive when it's economic, and it's about...

Jordanians are so diplomatic.

I love that.

Well, it really is.

It's truthful.

I really feel that, like, you look at, for example, USAID programs in Jordan, right?

Of course.

They were so, you know, with the water infrastructure that they helped us develop here with the

education reform, you know, all that stuff, you know, job creation, that works, right?

You know, our defense cooperation, that works, right?

But when you look at military intervention, we pay the price, look at all the refugees,

right, that come into the country, and it has an economic cost, and a social cost, and

a security cost, and a political cost.

So, I'm hoping that, you know, maybe President Trump, I know he, he, he, he called the Department

of Defense, the Department of War, I really hope President Trump, I know he cares about

peace, I really hope he already names it, the Department of Peace and Prosperity, because

if you want to have real protection of Christian communities here, you have to invest in stability,

intervene peacefully, you know, economically, you have the eye.

It's great for the U.S., it's also great for the region.

What is likely to happen in Gaza next?

What happens to all the people in Gaza?

I mean, it's the genocide, right, I, yeah.

And it's, I wish I knew Tucker, I thought-

Well, all these redevelopment plans, obviously I'm always hoping for order and tidiness

and prosperity.

I mean, I think those are all godly things, or something, those are good.

But you have, I don't know, close to two million people who are there, and they're in the

way, and clearly there's going to be an effort to, I don't know, I don't know what, like,

what happens to those people?

And clearly, I think, that's my personal perspective, I'm not a politician, you know, I'm a businessman,

so I think, you know, pragmatically and morally about things, right?

They have to stay.

We have to rebuild their homes and, you know, their livelihoods, their communities.

That's the, I think, the only solution, Tucker.

I mean, I don't see anyone that can accept morally, even politically, even just on a humanitarian

basis, right, a forced expulsion, right, of people from Gaza, from their native home.

Millions of people?

Of millions of people.

That doesn't happen, you know, since the Second World War, so you hope it wouldn't happen

now.

But do you think that might happen?

I'm not qualified, I think, to answer that question.

All I can tell you is if it does happen on our watch, all of us are accountable for it.

I agree.

Yeah, I agree completely.

Why did you, I mean, I know you want to say the fancy schools that you went to, but

you went to prominent schools in the United States, and you could have stayed.

Yeah.

And I'm sure all of your classmates are prosperous at this point, yeah, yeah, from business

school.

But why did you come back?

I've always wanted to come back.

US was, for me, an amazing experience studying in the US at the time.

I was there mainly in the 90s, right, and, you know, I owe a lot to my education in

the US.

It was very meaningful experience, there was, it felt like a lot of, at the time, this

freedom of thought and expression, and then ultimately conscience, yes, that you can have

there.

Exactly.

And that's very liberating, and it's, well, the point of freedom of speech is freedom

of conscience.

Yeah.

I get to believe what I, I get to speak my values out loud, right?

Exactly.

And I, I felt that in the US when I was around, I was very, very powerful lesson.

But the intention was never to stay there.

This is a very collectivist against society.

Family here is very important, you know, community here is very important.

And to want to be part of that, and to give back to that, and to support that, and to

have my family and my children grow up in that sort of collectivist environment is really

more important than money or anything else, clever, honestly.

And I, that's how I'm programmed.

I'm fortunate I can say that because I could also afford to come back.

You know, I was, my father was a businessman, my grandfather was a businessman.

So I could afford to come here and, you know, to explore sort of my career journey.

So some people can't, so they optimize working in other parts of the world.

So I have to be honest about that.

But no regrets.

I love it here.

Did you have family on the other side of the river in 48 or 67?

No.

Really?

Really?

We're very much Jordanian.

Always?

Yeah.

My, my family is, you know.

How many refugees did you get in 48, you know?

Oh, wow.

I, I'm not, I'm not on top of figures, but I think there are a total of, at the time, I'm

not sure if they all came to Jordan, but six, seven hundred thousand total refugees at

the time.

Some of them went into Palestine and in Syria, and a lot of them came into Jordan.

So, that's the total number, if I recall, if my memory serves me correctly.

I'm not sure what proportion.

I think the majority came into Jordan.

My last question is, where do you think this is all going?

It seems like things are accelerating quickly.

People are getting more radical.

The maps are being redrawn.

Huge populations are being moved around.

I mean, what, what are we looking at here?

I look, I, I'm scared for what's coming.

It feels like a big thing.

I guess it's what I'm saying.

I am scared for what's coming.

It, there's a lot of lack of clarity.

And it feels like decisions are being made in, you know, back room doors by who knows

who.

So there's, honestly, I wish I, I wish I could answer that.

And that, that's the thing is, if you want to create instability, you create insecurity

because nobody knows, you know, outcomes.

I feel when it comes to Jordan, you know, we have a strong leadership here.

We have strong security and defense here.

We have a wise people here.

I mean, you've seen this is one of the most resilient countries I think in the world.

I mean, who can come up and deal with the types of things that we've had to dealt with

over the past couple of decades?

So I think, you know, we'll find a way through it.

But my concern is also for the wider region, right, at what cost.

And my only concern, Tucker, I mean, when you have US military intervention or any kind

of military intervention, if there is a vacuum, it needs to be filled.

And who's going to fill that vacuum, right?

And what comes later?

What comes later might be even worse than, right?

But I think we kind of know because we've had 1948 who got hurt, well, the Christians

got hurt.

A lot of Muslims got hurt too, but the Christians being a minority got hurt.

Then you have Israel inspiring, pushing for the Iraq war.

Christians population in the country just basically evaporates.

And you have Israel pushing for the overthrow of Assad in Syria.

Minority religious people get hurt.

Christians, not just alloys, but lots of them.

They get crushed, Lebanon, bombed by Israel for 40 years, Christian population diminishes.

So like, I see a theme here, do you?

Yeah, there's clearly a theme.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's an anti-Christian theme.

I think it is.

I think it is because what it means to be Christian is if you really think about it, you

know, the most radical thing that Jesus taught us is love.

Yes.

And if something does not stem out of love, right, is it really Christian?

No.

Wow.

And a lot of what's happening is the furthest thing away, imaginable from love that I can

imagine at this stage, Tucker.

So yeah, it doesn't feel very Christian to me.

Good luck.

Thanks, sir.

Thank you.