The Strangest Thing To Happen In The Exorcism Room- Father Martins Breaks down "Dynasty of Death"

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Hey friends, Father Martin's here. Before we begin the show, I want to say thank you.

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Welcome back to the exorcist files here with our father who are not in heaven, but on camera.

Today we're going back to back to the dynasty of death, one of the most controversial cases we've

had on the show. Father Martin's is here to walk us through this deep dive into this most

disturbing of cases, but father, I do have to ask before we start this deep dive,

our exorcism cases sort of akin to children. Do you sort of love them all like some more than

others and are some of them, frankly, just a little out there and there's really nothing you can do

about it. What a weird way of putting it. They are certainly not my children. They're all disturbing

in their own way because what the enemy has done is is balanced on somebody. He's bullied somebody.

Some are memorable because, for example, you're able to catch a glimpse of the profound suffering

of the victim and that touches you emotionally. Others, you're able to see the suffering part of

that everlasting suffering that the demon is in and the sheer irrationality of his enterprise

because at the end of the day, evil is a mystery and there is no explanation for it. There's no rational

explanation for it. So every demon, if you will, is a drug addict who is constantly pursuing

the high that brings him the pain that for which he seeks relief by seeking as high, which brings him

more pain. So you can try to get to the bottom of it, but there just isn't an explanation for it.

So each exorcism case is memorable, but they're memorable for different reasons.

And Father, you mentioned a little bit before we started recording that something that always

people should keep in mind about this show is that we do profile many of the successes, but

the reality is that this is such a serious ministry and that I think you've shared on the show

that it's somewhere hovering around half to be charitable, do not ultimately find liberation.

Yeah, my own kind of informal statistics from my experience and that of my colleagues

is 60% of the people who are bona fide afflicted do not get liberated because they don't hate

the affliction enough. They don't hate the devil enough or don't love Christ enough

to do the work to get free. They want to be free of the pain, free of the cost of having the devil

in their lives, but they don't want to undergo the work of undergoing that severance

between the devil or his gifts that he's given. So they'll want to keep the gifts. The old cult gift,

the pleasures that he gives, the pleasures that sin give, but it brings with it a cost.

And that they don't want, but they would rather keep the pleasures that the devil has brought them.

And of course, that whole enterprise is futile. You either belong to the devil or you belong to

Christ and there's no middle ground. There really isn't a middle ground. This is why Christ said in

the gospel. He was not with me, is against me. And most people, most victims, bona fide victims

are against Christ, or at least they're too much with the devil.

That's always true with us humans, right? Sometimes we end up seeking the gifts more than the

giver. My father? Yep. That's right. Absolutely.

As a fair warning, this episode that we talk about does cover very serious topic, in particular,

mental health and suicidal thoughts. So disclaimer warning here, and trigger warning,

if this is something that is triggering or worrisome to you, please do consider skipping ahead

or skipping this episode in its entirety. And also, this episode contains spoiler alerts. So please,

if you have not heard dynasty of death from gosh, I think 18 months ago now, maybe even longer,

parts one and two, please go back and listen because there will be some spoilers and it is

radical episode. It is wild. Now father, this episode has some, it does ruffle theological

feathers. I remember even when we, when you first told us about this episode and I thought this is

just one I thought father stories couldn't blow my mind any further. It comes in with this one.

So let's start with the obvious thing that is sort of theologically offensive to a lot of

folks who've written in about this episode. This episode involves someone being afflicted multiple

generations later, despite them being in no state of sin, baptized Christian, recently confessed

up and they start experiencing extreme demonization because of something their ancestor multiple

generations in the past decided to do. So what is it about generational curse's father that we

find so difficult to wrap our head around and perhaps you could speak to just to the reality of

them and what the church teaches on them. Right. Yeah. So yeah, for many generational curses,

the very concept is a scandal and is not believable and they'll argue on theological grounds,

which is simply false. At the heart of our faith, the reason why we needed liberation, the

liberation of Christ is because of a generational curse. The fall of Adam and Eve is something to

which we are all subject. We're born with original sin. Which would have, you know, we're at not

for the intervention of Christ, which would have eternal ramifications. So you can argue that it's

not fair. You can argue that, but it doesn't change the reality. Period. Just God created the universe

with a moral dimension and he created us as interconnected beings with one another and our ancestors

have their decisions and their choices can have and do have effects within our lives.

And our first parents, Adam and Eve, at the very moment we were created,

their choice to disobey God was immediately felt by us and that was deposited within us by them.

I mean, they didn't actively do it, but the legal ramifications of their choice met us.

So enter Christ. And for that matter, Christ's grace within our lives does affect the people

after the generations after us. And Deuteronomy says that the sins of the wicked, the Lord will

visit to the third and fourth generation, but as blessings he will visit to the thousandth generation.

So we love that latter part, but the prior part that that the sins of the parents will be

visited, that that exists as well. Yeah, and Father, I found it very interesting. I've been to a few

Catholic conferences as you know, the visiting Protestant just to meet the quota. And I've had

priests tell me, oh, I just don't understand how this could be a thing. Aquinas argued against it.

And everyone agrees on original sin, but what I find interesting is that I from the exorcist,

from the preside discuss this with who are engaged in active exorcism ministry, they all say,

oh, yeah, of course. And they mainly see it manifest in the form of free masonry and in some

extreme cases, the one the curse of Gavin Dunbar as we had shared on the show earlier. But

as that been your experience with your colleagues that a majority of them, if you will,

have dealt with cases where the person doesn't bear the moral guilt of what happened, but they are

bearing the consequences of an ancestral transgression. Absolutely. Yep, for sure. The moral guilt,

they don't bear. Like in other words, I'm not responsible for my father's sin. And Aquinas argues

that. And in doing so, he's just repeating the words of Christ, who says a man will answer for

his own sin. However, the effects of the sin, which we can call the curse, the curse aspect of it,

those linger, they do linger. And like I said, the fall of Adam and Eve, that's exhibit eight.

And, you know, we have other, you know, the, look, the, the sin of David, when he, when he slept

with Bathsheba. And then to cover that sin, he ordered the murder, the de facto murder of her husband,

the baby paid for his sin, that the baby's life was taken, it was stricken dead. And, you know,

the baby had no fault in it. But scripture is very clear, that it paid the moral consequences.

It paid the, it was subject to the curse, if you will, the effect of David's sin. He's morally

culpable, but, but the baby suffers the effects. And this, this is the way God chose the universe

to be structured. The universe has a moral dimension. And because of that moral dimension,

there are consequences for choosing evil. Well, on that note, let's go ahead and actually listen

to the clip. So for those wondering just what we're talking about, they can actually hear.

So we're going to roll a clip. And this is from Dynasty of Death. This is the season two case

file opener. And let's play it right now. You can see what we're talking about.

Hello. Why is one? What do you seek? Please. Please, it's my wife. She's dying. Please, please help her.

Yes. As it is, she has been one day left. Can you help? Please?

The ruler of this earth can heal. If the sun rises tomorrow, so shall the light heal her.

But a price must be paid. I'm sorry, I don't have any money in. I'm just a poor farmer.

But please, I'll do you. I'll do anything for you. I'm good with my hands. I can build you

something or I can... anything. Please, just anything. Will you heal her? Please, save her.

The cost is death. There is no life without death. What?

What?

What? I...

A pact shall we make. A covenant not to break. Do you accept?

We'll stop you, not us to, but us, may they call me never.

Yes. Yes, I accept.

All right. Well, disturbing clip. Great way to start off an episode and shout out to my good friend,

Daniel, who played the great-great-grandfather and do not worry he did not bear any consequences

of sin for portraying the great-great-grandfather. So father, obviously, this sets the precedent

for the entire story. But let me start with this. Obviously, the great-great-grandfather is doing

something gravely wrong here. But there's an interesting dynamic that I think would be worth

discussing. And you've talked about this on the show is that the enemy often portrays a false

dichotomy, right, when it comes to these types of circumstances. So walk us through a little bit of

what he thought was happening, but how there actually were other options available to him

than the witch doctor. The great-great-grandfather felt stuck, believing that he had no other choice,

but he did have another choice. And that other choice is to implore God, to spare the life of his

bride, to spare the life of the mother of his children. And if the Lord chose not to do so,

to accept his will, now it's great, it's difficult. But we either put our faith in God,

or we put our faith in something else. And that's something else that he chose

brought a horrific outcome. Obviously, it would not be a good thing for the great-great-grandmother

to die. But look at how many had died because of the pack he made, 12 died, and they died many of

them as children, and they died by suicide. So it brought a tremendous darkness onto the family,

onto many families, right, onto the whole generational line, which comprised, which went through

the generations. So the grandfather, I believe, he was born, if I recall, 1844. So there had been

heavens, almost two centuries, of people that were subject to this curse. And so 12 lives were

lost. That could have been mitigated if she had been allowed to die. She died in peace with Christ,

and nobody wants this. Nobody delights it. Certainly, God doesn't delight in death. He's very

clear about that in the scriptures. But this is what God chose to allow to happen. And in a way of

mystery, our happiness is bound up with his will, even in this situation. And so we just move on,

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So, Father, it's fair to characterize. Our enemy is a very talented predatory lender,

and there's always a much bigger bill, and I have to reflect on this. I just find it so interesting

that, you know, would you say, Father, that he is uniquely gifted at going after us when we are

desperate and we think there's no other option? And obviously, scripture tells us that there's

nothing that we can't out with the devil in. God is always providing a door. There's no temptation

to great for us, but this seems like a hallmark of his attack pattern, right, is to find us when we're

in our seemingly worst, you know, most, you know, despondent states and say, hey, it's me or the bad

thing, right? Absolutely. Yeah, that's exactly what he does. He comes in, you know, just like them off

you. You're desperate. You're stuck up against the wall. You've painted yourself into a corner,

so you seek their help. Boy, and that help is going to take you out of that corner and put you

into a much narrower corner. And, you know, no one, you know, the mafia was never built on winners.

It was never built on winners. And, you know, the demonic mafia is that on steroids.

So it's just a bad irrational choice to make that the devil comes to you offering what appears to

be a way out, a solution. In fact, what he's doing is putting you further and further into the foxhole.

Father, I thought of a demonic mafia name. You want to hear it? What's that?

Ball Capone. Ball Capone.

There I go. That one's that's that's free. We should put that behind the paywall or perhaps a

praywall. Father, maybe you could help us contextualize. I know many of us, especially in modern

Western culture, are not thinking, oh, the enemy's not coming after us with, hey, I'm going through

this. I need to run to my local witch doctor. I mean, my name right as a jambajuse. That's the

closest thing we have. But what is another context you think that maybe some more listeners might

find applicable? What are some scenarios where people often feel in your ministry despondent

they have no other choice and a common lie the enemy leads them down? Maybe I'm thinking, for

example, if someone is caught, perhaps in an affair or some unscrupulous behavior and the enemy

says you can't get out of this because if you do, the damage will be so bad and no one could ever

forgive you. And so you just keep digging a hole. Is that an example?

Yeah, you know, I've heard an attorney once say, like, look, most people, most criminals,

what catches them is not the crime they committed. What catches them are the subsequent lies they

tell. Right? It's the it's the subsequent evil that's committed that exposes their crime.

And then eventually they paint themselves into a corner because you you you weren't able,

you don't have a grasp of all the angles and eventually somebody discovers an angle that leaves

you vulnerable and there you are. You know, in our case in season one, Mark and Cheryl,

Cheryl was the woman trying to get pregnant was absolutely desperate for a baby. And so she

was willing to do anything. And so this is the mindset that at the end of the day is absolutely

demonic. That that God isn't providing for me what I want. And I've decided that what I want

in Cheryl's case is a baby, come heck her high water. I'm not going to be happy without a baby. So

I'm going to do what I need to do in order to get this. Then she turns to the occult and it just

gets drawn into that world. And so it begins with a wound, huh? I mean, what sets everything up is

is this wound. And there was lots of preparation going into that wound. You know, she came from big

families, big extended families. They were all interrelated. And you know, babies were the greatest

thing in the world. And she had a relative who was never able to get pregnant. And that relative

was the object of incredible pity from the other women and her family. She didn't want to be,

she didn't want the same fate as that. So she, you know, gosh darn it, I'm going to take matters

in my own hands. But that that is the demonic sin that that is the rebellion of Satan right

then and there. God has made a choice. He has allowed reality to have the character that it does.

And to not accept it, you know, is to commit that demonic rage, that demonic rebellion. Now,

you know, God doesn't say to us except everything in reality and don't fight against it. Obviously,

I mean, this is why we have medicine. This is why we have, you know, plumbers to get you out,

you know, to get your clogged pipe unclogged and get the plumbing going. But there are limits,

right? Like there are domains like we, we, we must not intrude upon the occult. We must not

intrude upon that domain over which God has sovereignty. We're trying to be God. We're trying to

play God. We've left the realm of being human beings and we've jumped into the realm of rage,

that demonic rage against God. And there are tremendous consequences for that. Just ask the devil,

right? Like ask him how it's working out for him. I actually don't like to talk to the devil.

I heard that in the Exodus files. I should not engage in communications with them. So I have a

severed all my ties. I meant that as and wonderful. Boom. Another success story. I, of course,

I meant that figuratively. Not, of course, we know. We know Father. Father, before we leave the

topic of generational curses, I thought there's an anecdote that's been shared on the show.

And I believe it was a fellow priest, friend of yours who shared an account of a God parent

at a baptism that illustrated this concept of spiritual authority that we acknowledge today,

even in the role of God parents. So refresher memories, because I think this is helpful for

trying to wrap our minds around this generational curse dynamic. This was a story that occurred to

the, to a priest who was a seminary formator of a friend of mine. And so he was at a baptism,

baptizing an infant on a Saturday afternoon. And the Godfather that the family had selected,

there were, there were some rumors that he was living the faith. But more than that,

that that he was involved with evil stuff, that he was involved with, with organized crime

professionally. Of course, he denied it and stated that that he was in full communion with the

church and living as a devout Christian and so forth. What happened is at the baptism seat,

prior to the actual pouring of the water, there is something called the oil of

exorcism applied and it's applied over the chest of the baby, kind of over the heart at the

sign of the cross is, is made. And that oil of exorcism is consecrated by the bishop every year

at the Easter vigil. So at the moment that that priest thumb touched that infant's chest,

the Godfather jumped up in the air backwards, landed on top of the altar on his knees,

and started howling like a wolf. So the action that was done to the Godbaby here

was felt by the Godfather over there. So when he had agreed to be Godfather, then there was a

spiritual connection, a spiritual conduit was formed and it, it flows both ways. So when, when

Christ in that oil, when they'll fully spirit in that oil, touch that baby and exerted divine power,

that flowed up along the line to the Godfather. Of course, the baptism was paused that afternoon.

Obviously, this man was unfit to be a Godfather, so they had to find someone else.

Baby was baptized, but just not that day.

What's important, I think, is we acknowledge obviously spiritual connections and dynamics between

parents and children, the sacred role of Godparents, and so it seems that it could go both ways,

and that there is this authority that can be passed down, etc. So, all right. Well, I want to move

on a little bit here. We're going to talk about how Joseph, who is the main protagonist in our

story and the victim, he starts to go downhill at a certain point in his life pretty quickly. He was

just caught staring at night. He was speaking in strange utterances. Actually, why don't we go

ahead? We're going to roll a clip right now of some of how Joseph's demeanor changed considerably.

But Stephen knew his brother was not usually this neat.

No, I'm good, thanks. No beer? It's Saturday. We have a perfect car and ice cold nectar of the gods.

This is our heaven, man. Joseph, talk to me. What's going on with you?

Honestly, I'm okay. Is it stuff with Alicia? No, Alicia is great.

Dude, you're not okay. Why are you talking this way? You should just go. What?

Come on, man. Did I do something to piss you off? If I said something, please just tell me.

I'm your brother. Please, Stephen, just go.

All right, so great performance by Joseph Coffee. And one little easter egg, I did pose this

actually in the episode teaser when it came out, but our listeners will notice that I don't know

how you would know this just by listening audio wise. But we did depict Joseph speaking in only

forward sentences for those listeners who remember the demon was famously named demon number four

and had this pattern throughout all his cadence throughout his insults at the priest everything.

But father, first and foremost, talk to us a little bit about how the onset of the demonization

it didn't seem to come all of a sudden in the sense that he didn't fully like tank, but it started

slowly. It came on very quickly, but started then to slowly roll out. And what I find so interesting

is that his tells were subtle and yet a demon has every vested interest in remaining hidden.

So can you talk a little bit about the onset of how this happened? Is this typical

and why the demon still puts forward these little tells?

Yeah, so it didn't happen all at once. It wasn't that the victim woke up one morning and he's

fully possessed and it just struck him out of nowhere. Like a cold. You know, like sometimes you

get a cold and you weren't around anybody who say you have no idea how you seem to be in good health

like you were taking care of yourself and boom, all of a sudden you get this virus and it seemingly

has come at you out of nowhere. But he develops these symptoms. He's becoming weird,

he's becoming distant, he's withdrawing from his wife, family and everybody else around him.

He is starting to hear himself speaking to himself compulsively, experiencing pain and thinking

about what a failure he's been in his life that the world would be better off without him.

He begins speaking in groups of four. So of course, when we heard the demon, he strictly

spoke in sequences of four. We heard him like when he would say no, no, no, no, no, four sets of

no rhythmically and compulsively. But it started with obsession with the victim and the distance

that he showed from his wife and those around him, they just thought there was some kind of

depression, some kind of sadness, some kind of, you know, whatever, stuff that that life throws

at you. And so they were concerned, but they didn't realize the extent of the trouble in which he

found himself. Father, a lot of people obviously wrestle with mental health issues and all of us go

through seasons of despair and then being distraught. What made Joseph's case so interesting and

how would you advise someone who is seemingly beginning a journey of mental health issues like

Joseph was and how would that be approached both medically and spiritually with the caveat that he

also was hearing voices. He described a voice that was so convincing. And so how would you advise

someone who's going through that to kind of walk that line between mental health from a medical

treatment and spiritual and looking out for a spiritual component? You start to hear voices.

The first thing you should do is pick up a phone, call your doctor, get an appointment, get,

don't jump to the spiritual. It is far more likely that there's something medically wrong with you

that you have some kind of medical pathology at some level, whatever the heck it is. So medicine

needs to be unleashed upon you. They need to check you out. And we'll say this, even in people

who are demonically afflicted, not all of them hear voices. In fact, in my experience, I think

less of them hear voices than do not. I think overall, it's certainly not a complaint that I hear

about from every victim that I've ever dealt with. They will sense a compulsion. They will sense a

drive, a kind of an obsessive behavior directing them towards some action, some kind of behavior.

But it's not necessarily that they have a dialogue happening in their mind.

Let's actually roll a clip that kind of illustrates this dynamic Joseph was talking about.

A few days before meeting me, when Joseph was alone in his room and Alicia was at work,

he began to hear voices. And they urged him to do something terrible.

No one deserves this. Death is the only escape. No one will care. Stop it. Stop. No.

Obviously, very disturbing stuff here. Joseph described this voice, which I'm curious

father if you think he was just discussing. Was he hearing an audible voice or was he actually

just describing the thoughts, but he said it was so compelling, which I find so interesting because

both he and his wife were people of faith and they know that God is encouraging and loving and

would never say these things. And yet he found it so like inescapable. And so what was going on there?

Yeah. I can't say that I really recall the way that it hit him. But it doesn't, I don't think

it was an audible voice, but it was discrete words that were that were being

impressed upon him. And they were so arresting that he describes them as a voice. And people who

suffer from schizophrenia, they will state that they hear a voice or that they see things

and what they're experiencing are auditory, usually auditory hallucinations. It's a hallucination

that expresses itself in words and sentences. But they're so arresting. They're so compelling

that they'll describe it as seeing things or as a voice that's speaking to them. But they're not

literally hearing sound, but they are being impressed upon by words and sentences, which they

describe as a voice because it is hitting them so acutely, so arrestingly.

Now the enemy obviously is tactful and I think a lot of us would quickly recognize,

you know, obviously God would never tell someone to harm themselves. And yet he found this a

compelling voice. And so it seems like the enemy in some of these cases would actually try, we know

he likes to try and lace half-truths, right? He tries to co-op these things. But obviously,

when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness, the devil came at him and used actual scripture

against him, which Christ fired back the full context of the scripture. So what's your

ministerial advice on how to recognize the subtle lies and perhaps water some examples

of ways the enemy gets in our head and gives us little half-truths. Because I have to think like,

you know, you go, how it's can't be, how is he confused? God doesn't tell you to do stuff like this,

but he said it was so compelling and that's the part I just find. So, yeah, it was just like it was

to Eve. So what the devil came in and what he did was begin with a lie. Did God really say to you

not to eat from any tree in the garden? Well, of course, God didn't say that. I mean, they're

of course they were eating. They're eating. And Adam and Eve are human beings. They had to eat,

so she felt compelled to correct him. No, he didn't say not to eat any, but only from one specific

tree. Oh, and I'll tell you why he didn't. So he always presents himself as offering you

that component that is going to make up for the lack that you experience. First, he has you focus on

your lack, right? Look how bad that is, look how crummy that is. I got a solution for you. You just

have to say yes. And that's always been his tactic. He's never had any other tactic. He doesn't

have to pick any other tactic. It's so effective. It's marvelously effective. So whatever it is that

you lack in your life, he'll present himself as a solution for it.

Hello friends, Father Martin's here. Precise a certain affliction over and over again.

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Hey friends, Ryan here. People ask me all the time. How did you get started in podcasting?

It wasn't always exorcism. Here's what happened. A few years ago, I had a dream. At an age when

many people buy their first home, I instead bought an old airport shuttle bus. Why? Well, great question.

I wanted to have a mobile studio that could travel all across the country and meet the most

interesting people to get their best wisdom for life. And here, their craziest stories. Because

let's be honest, life is very weird. And everyone has a story. So I tore out the back and I put a

fake campfire in it. And thus was born my first podcast I went camping with. Shout out to my dear

friend Mark, who said, Sure, I'll drive with you across the country. And we'll just see who God

puts in our path for guests. We had no guest booked. We simply drove out in faith. And you know what?

God connected us with Mr. Peterman from Seinfeld, PGA and Master's Legend, Bubble Watson,

Kathy Lee Gifford, Chuck LaDelle, and even Andy Weir from the Martian and Project Hell Mary,

which is awesome. And pro server, Laird Hamilton. Now, I never actually got a chance to upload these

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You can see the cool little night set and fake campfire with the mountains. It's really fun.

So if you have found yourself saying for some inexplicable reason, known only to you and God,

that you want more of Ryan's dad jokes, more interviews, more of my run-on questions with just

the occasional pearl of priceless wisdom, then I want you to subscribe right now to the Ryan

Bethesho, wherever you get your podcasts. Or just click the link in the show now to subscribe

anywhere and everywhere. Check out the Ryan Bethesho wherever you get your podcasts.

And generally speaking, Father, when we have these thoughts, obviously, and obviously not every

thought is a spiritual thought. We have brains. And I've always found it fascinating how this interplay

of chemicals and chemistry, and yet we're in dwell with the spirits. And we can, I think,

Catholic theology too, is that your guardian angel can potentially impart thoughts to you as well.

And so any high-level thoughts on how to discern from your experience, like how does Father say,

hey, this is what the Holy Spirit is like for me. This is what I know. And then I know how to

recognize the voice, the enemy. And obviously, the best way is to get close to the real thing,

so we can discern the false thing. But what would you say is sort of beyond the lookout for, Father?

Well, certainly look, if you're not in communion with Christ, if you're not in the state of grace,

you can't trust your discernment, period, period. You're not in the state of grace, you're not in

the kingdom of heaven. You're in the kingdom of darkness. So you're going to be much more subject

to the wilds of the devil. He has a jurisdiction over you. So you can't trust your discernment.

You've got to go to people who's discernment you trust, who are living, living morally upright

lives, who are spiritually connected people, who are people redeemed and renewed by Christ,

and listen to them. Secondly, whatever it is that you're hearing, if it contradicts

scripture, if it contradicts the wisdom of the church, it's not of God. If it contradicts what

the saints would, it's not of God. So one of the things that devil often does is he presents you

as a unique case. You're different than everybody else, right? So this is the reality that applies

to you. You're just, you're different. As soon as you hear stuff like that, like, check out, man,

because it's just not true. Well, Father, my mom has told me for years that I am special

and unique. She loves the unique case. Okay. All right. You've met my mom, so you know how that works.

And also, Father, if you get a thought in a craving for iceberg lettuce, how can we discern that?

Oh, man. Get rid of it. Okay. Get rid of it. All right. Let's jump to the actual exorcism room here.

So we're going to play. This was a hell of a performance. No pun intended or actually pun intended

for Joe coffee. He did a fantastic job as a manifesting demon. And people always ask us about,

we pray over all these scenes. And it takes a lot out of the actors. They do a lot, but there's a lot

of prayer and protection that goes into this. We try to do this as redemptively as possible. But

let's head to the exorcism room. Now, this battle was crazy. It says there were multiple sessions,

no progress being made. Let's roll a clip and see just what Father was in for in this battle.

I commanded him to give me his name and he taunted me. But when I commanded a second time,

he complied very loudly. You who are manifesting demon in the name of Jesus, he will tell me your name.

One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. Joseph is no more.

Demon, I command you to tell me your name. Can't you count bastard?

In the name of Jesus, tell me your name. Four letters is the hint. Let me spell for you.

F, U, C. Answer me, Demon. In the holy name of Jesus, tell me your name now.

I am spied right here. Can't train slough, Arba. I am full.

I really put much thought into your name, did you? Demon, you obey my commands and the name of Christ

now be silent. Joseph, I'm speaking to you. Trust God, Jesus is going to set you free.

And you, Demon, you call yourself four. I command you. No, Joseph, only four for shaking,

for suck, fornicator, for God, for you will be silent.

All right, so father, interestingly in this battle, you see obviously violent demon, really

gnarly, but what was so frustrating and it seems confusing for you is that you said, Joseph

claimed to have cleansed his soul by confessing within the sacrament of confession. Every sin he

was conscious of committing and yet it seemed to change nothing. In fact, the demon was just as

powerful in the 15th session as he was in the first. So you asked Joseph if he had ever made a

pact of the devil or anyone else who might represent him, fortune teller psychic healer, it's even

an old girlfriend. And the answer was always no. So what do you feel in the room at this point,

father? Demon's just as strong. It's been 15 sessions. Are you starting to, you know, pull a collar

like this? I don't know what to do. What do you think in it? What's going through your head?

Well, what's going through my head is, is, is he's lying so that the victim is lying or

that there's a curse going on. And, you know, there was just nothing in his behavior in his person

that made me doubt him. And in speaking to his white like they seemed like honest people,

I'm, I'm suspecting a curse and curses can be really tough to, to find, to identify and localize.

It's a trial and error thing. Like in a sense, in a sense, you're looking for a needle in a

he's deck. Like, where do you even begin? Well, every exorcist typical strategy is, is you try to

compel the demon, but they don't necessarily reveal that. And it may go on and on and on without

it being revealed that the demon wasn't giving us any kind of information, anything that was,

that would be revealing or telling. And then we caught a break. And break you did yet. So

let's roll clip. This is the other thing that ruffles so many feathers and is just

unprecedented in exorcist files case Lord. So let's roll this with a cameo from a guest star.

I repeated the command a fourth time.

Demon, I command you to obey in the name of Jesus. Tell me your name.

He looked at me and was clearly afraid. But there was something else in his eyes.

Something I couldn't really explain. I thought to myself, this is either the most powerful demon

I have ever encountered because he doesn't react at all to what I say or he is the weakest

because he is so afraid he can't speak. Finally, I turned to him and asked,

Demon, who are you? Quietly and almost even shyly. He lightly shook his head and said,

I am no demon. Do not lie to me in the name of Jesus. Tell me your name, demon. I am no demon.

But for the grace of God most merciful, I would be with them.

Well, a break you certainly did get what a cameo father. Let's just break this down.

Something changed. You mentioned that there was a there was a shift in the countenance

and you're on guard in these rooms. So you you're used to a dynamic you actually mentioned. Tell

us about this father. You're used to demon swapping out. What do you mean by that?

If there's more than one demon inhabiting an individual and even if there isn't, they they can at times

bring just another demon within to to suffer in their place. So you're having an exorcism session.

You're you're you're beating the snot out of a demon so to speak with the prayers

and and it's it's causing him injury. It's causing him suffering. It's draining his energy.

So what he'll do is he'll switch another one to take the punishment. So now you have a fresh demon

who's not injured you know who's at you know full level of energy. And if you don't know that

if you don't catch that then then the fight has just become unfair. A fresh demon is facing you who

you who are tired and exhausted by this point. Now they'll do that sometimes over at least so

that you can see clearly and and you know certainly an exorcist if if he doesn't learn to say no stop

bring Lord make the first demon come back out so that he takes it. You're subject to now a

rule of engagement that they've introduced into the fight that you don't have to subject yourself to.

But sometimes they do it without you even being aware of it and and in that sense gosh

you're you're just stuck with it because you're not even aware of it. So you might say period

of it Lord if there's been any switching here reverse it or or make me make me aware if there's

an attempt at a switch. But this was an occasion where we encountered an overt switch. So there's

just this new voice this new personality coming out and he exhibited the markedly different

characteristics than than the demon that we had just been fighting. So we knew that there was

there was there was a new demon so to speak here and I say demon scare quotes because it wasn't a

demon it was the great great grandfather. Yeah and so when he says I am no demon and you're just

you know you're you just don't trust any of this right so Father you're you've got to be read

alert this has got to be some bizarre tactic. What did it take to convince you that this was not a demon.

We he he spoke about the Lord's mercy like that was boom that the you know a demon is never ever

ever gonna praise the Lord's mercy ever he'll mock it he will deny that the Lord has mercy.

It would be absolutely beneath him and antithetical to his whole endeavor his whole project

to affirm that the Lord is merciful. So Father you mentioned the eyes a lot too is there distinct

demonic personality swapping out and then you just it's the most subtle of clues in the face of

the eyes is it something that you're you know that when they swap out even though it's the same

person you just you notice something's just a little different. Oh gosh it's usually not a little

different it's usually a whole lot different. It it's exhibited on the entire body of that victim

there's different muscles that are now contorted they're they're that are now strained or they're

strained in a different way there's a different way of speaking there's a different kind of gaze

or or at least different habits of being that you see a different way of shaking a different

way of twitching a different way of snarling a different way of swearing different patterns

of cussing and so forth. All right so Father at some point you're convinced all right this is the

great great grandfather so is this a lost soul of what is in Catholic theology what is happening

with a great great grandfather and it's in what is the correct term is he in dwelling is he

occupant what is happening. Catholic theology has no has you know there's nothing in in in

Catholic dogma that can explain this this this was simply a grace from the Lord what what how

what makes us so sure that it was from the Lord because we pounced on it we followed the advice

that was given and it brought about Joseph's liberation so obviously it's not going to be from

the enemy it's going to be from God. His great-grandfather I think he says in the actual

conversation that he is enduring his pergation or something and so you believe that God just

allowed this in his sovereignty this guy to come forward and then he provides this clue which is

that he made this horrible pact and once you heard that right you know okay this is the door we

got a pummel and then if I recall when the demon when the great-grandfather left great-grandfather

left the demon came back and now armed with this new intel the demon was pissed and actually had no

idea how you would know so what happened yeah it was the intel that that there was now an

explanation that made sense and it didn't cost us anything to try it you know when we mentioned

it to the demon you know that there was this curse like it you know it went ballistic he went

ballistic because we were now armed with information that we didn't have before so curses foiled

again you know like that like you'd see in the old cartoons that was exactly the demeanor that he

displayed that that he he was in a rage that we had discovered the rights that he had the door

that was open was this a lot so would this be called a lost soul then what would this be called

you know we don't tend to use the term lost souls that this would be a suffering soul this

would be a soul living out his pergation i mean that that's that's what he had identified himself as

okay and then of course once armed with this new information you got Joseph to

renounce this pact and basically declare his independence remit and remove it at that point

demon stranglehold is broken and Joseph ultimately finds liberation let me ask you this father were

how many of your colleagues have experienced like this is that this sounds so rare from at least my

i mean i've had the privilege now of interviewing quite a few deliverance and ministers and

exorcists over the years and i've never heard of this outside of your account is this a particularly

rare occurrence that you think you just were blessed to experience it's very very rare most

exorcists have have not experienced this kind of thing but you know when we get together and talk at

conferences there there are some that do and they share their stories and for for me it came early

on and it just happened to be that way but there there are other experiences that other exorcists

have had that i've never had so it just you know the it's kind of the luck of the draw so to speak

whatever god wants to have happened okay well this case is so bizarre father i want to as we land

the plane here obviously this this case has a lot of dynamics one in particular's pattern recognition

and so i'm curious what did Joseph and his wife think about the fact that they had so much

ancestral trauma and obviously many others had committed suicide were they assuming that this was

just a you know just a sad reality of their family and for those and i guess maybe you could

lead us home to with a take a take home of you know is this sort of pattern recognition something

that we should all look to and our family histories if we see something that is repeating itself

over and over again would you say hey it might be worth considering a spiritual option here i just

find it so fascinating that you know he had so much trauma and death in his family and didn't seek

out a spiritual solution to it yeah exactly what you said they they assumed that this was just the

way things are kind of the luck of the draw and you know bad luck seems to find us they didn't

recognize a a a a pattern that was spiritual in in in in origin or that or that could be spiritual

they never to be even more precise they they didn't they didn't act on this with a spiritual

solution they didn't take it to the Lord and say Lord end this patterning end this they just

you know every time a suicide would happen oh my god you know this was so bad this was horrible

but but there wasn't this this thought like why does this keep happening Lord can you break this

and and undertake some some actual spiritual work there some some acting with some muscle there

imploring the Lord to bring about a change well would you invite listeners to consider obviously

we don't want to scare anyone or think obviously all families have we're all broken humans

making more broken humans and so that's going to compound but what would you say is the sort of

why is way to discern if you have something going on and we always come back to because she's a

friend of the show and has a remarkable testimony but Tammy Comer with her story and how she was

bearing the the brunt of these consequences of something that an ancestor of hers had done

and when she got delivered it the she got healed and so there is a framework for this and so

what's your advice father for how we should approach this and looking into patterns and trauma in

our lives and when and how we should approach it with spiritual solutions take it to the Lord

ask for healing bring them the symptoms and and undertake the work for that and and expect that

it's going to take more than just a 10 second prayer are you how badly do you want

these patterns of of destruction eliminated from your family line all right so so if you really

want it then then you're prepared to engage in in in the battle for more than 10 seconds like a

steady daily encounter with God asking him asking his saints asking the angels to come and make battle

against this dysfunction and it can be anything it can be hey that no male in the family makes it

past 55 years of age and and they have a heart attack at heart is it the double causing that maybe

maybe not maybe it's just purely a genetic thing but that in and of itself is something that God

can heal and that exists ultimately because of the fall of Adam and Eve which brought sickness into

the world which brought death into the world God can heal that start doing battle with that every day

maybe in your family the marriages end in divorce in an uncanny way or maybe there's a pattern of

incredible infidelity or maybe there's a pattern of violence in some way maybe you don't notice

any patterns but there's still that doesn't mean there aren't any patterns even if if you think your

family is more or less all right and it has been spared you don't know so undertake that Lord

bring healing into my family line bring healing into the entire human family

pre-healing into the Gonzalez family that lives across the street which all that family always

seems to be subject to bad luck and horrible things happening but bring healing into the the

Campbell family that also seems to always be fighting horrific marital problems and so forth they

deal with alcoholism constantly that that should always be the the the first mode of of our reaction

don't don't be looking for an exorcist right away look there are almost five billion people in the

world and there's there's painfully too few a priest and and even fewer exorcists to be able to do

this uh to be able to treat everybody to be able to sit down with everybody and help you identify

patterns and so undertake that work with the Lord right get get so hunker down with with some prayer

Father as we wrap up here this case has some great lessons um obviously frustrates me a lot

in some ways too but uh I love the dynamic that yes there are maybe gene generational curses but

on the other hand the spiritual authority goes both ways and so we've all been given these gardens

by god to steward and tend to and we might be actually having spiritual authority or the opportunity

to bless things that we're not even aware of um and so could you just close us out with some

a reflection and encouragement on that connection that we might have with things we may not even realize

you have the authority of a son or daughter of god you have the authority you know what like a

child is under authority of mom and dad but a child also makes his authority felt right he cries

he expresses an e boom mom and dad's bringing to action and and the same the same goes for us

and god he responds to our prayers that our prayers are endearing to him because we are his sons

and daughters so don't sell your prayers short they are endearing to god they have an effect on

God and they bring about good amen amen indeed all right well folks thanks for tuning in and

listening if you've not heard this case go back and listen to dynasty of death preferably in the

daytime not something you want to listen to uh right before bed father we did not do praise and

haze for this but would you like a dad joke to sign us off since we talked about some serious stuff

today uh all right what's the only apparel brand that there is no choice of whether to buy it or not

you are going to buy it no matter what uh what Calvinist Klein Calvinist Klein

ha ha ha all right on that no it is better than I should go it is better that you should go

all right well everybody have a have a have a blessed uh have a blessed day I hope the Lord

blesses everyone blesses your families and may he give you a glorious Easter Sunday amen thanks

for listening folks see you next time

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