The Truth About Betrayal Trauma Symptoms – When You Can’t Get The Right Help

Do you have betrayal trauma symptoms? Did any professional that you went to help you understand that you are a victim of emotional and psychological abuse?

If not, you’re not the only one. Attend one of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions to join a community of women who can validate and support you.

Most Professionals Miss Betrayal Trauma Symptoms

Tragically, family, friends, clergy, and therapists further abuse victims. When they don’t recognize that betrayal trauma symptoms are caused by emotional and psychological abuse and coercion.

“That was the hardest part of my betrayal trauma symptoms. I felt like I was screaming, waving my arms for help, going to everyone I could think of, from clergy to therapists, and no one helped me.” Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG

Women With Betrayal Trauma Symptoms Are Victims Of Abuse

Many women in our community share that they did not understand where the betrayal trauma symptoms were coming from. They thought it was from the discovery of their husband’s infidelity or pornography use, and it was. But they didn’t know that his infidelity and use signaled that he was emotionally and psychologically abusive.

To know if you’re a victim of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

What Are Common Betrayal Trauma Symptoms?

Wondering if you are in betrayal trauma? Here are a few of the most common symptoms:

• Grief
• Numbness
• Rage
• Depression
• Insomnia and other sleep issues
• Difficulty eating or overeating
• Anxiety
• Terror
• Paranoia
• Headaches
• Body aches and pains

At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we understand how to help you heal from betrayal trauma symptoms.

Enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to determine your husband’s true character.

Transcript: The Truth About Betrayal Trauma Symptoms

Anne: I have Kathy or Justice Jones on today’s episode. She is a justice advocate who promotes outside the box solutions. And best practice responses to families living under the chronic oppression of abusers and counter-parents. I invited her here because the truth is that domestic abuse causes betrayal trauma symptoms. So we need to discuss domestic abuse and how professionals are missing it. Especially betrayal trauma professionals.

They’re not identifying the symptoms of betrayal trauma as responses to emotional and psychological abuse, and coercion. So we’re going to talk about that today.

Welcome Kathy.

Kathy: Thank you for having me.

Anne: Listeners to my podcast who have experienced this understand on a deeply personal level. How the entire system does not understand emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. And the continued abuse post separation or post divorce, when you’re fighting a narcissist for custody. So let’s look at the system as a whole, including court professionals, therapists, all the people involved.

When you say trauma responsive professionals, do you mean people who actually really get it or people who just say they get it? And can you also talk about the difference between those two things?

Kathy: Yes, certainly.

The System’s Failure To Recognize Abuse

Kathy: I’ve been hearing the code word “trauma informed” probably for about 10 years in national conferences and the like. It quickly became apparent to me that just because you’re trauma informed, it doesn’t mean you’re responsive.

It doesn’t mean you take the knowledge imparted to you and actually work towards the benefit and healing of the survivor. Meaning that if you’re a trauma informed professional, trauma informed is not enough. Even in your good intentions, you may be acting in ways or putting the survivor in situations that actually aggravate or re-traumatize that victim.

Anne: From my perspective, there are so many so-called “betrayal trauma therapists.” Or even addiction recovery therapists, or other therapists who say they’re trauma informed. But they don’t understand anything about abuse and abuse dynamics. And so their counsel to the victim with betrayal trauma symptoms ends up harming the victim more. Many women don’t know this when they are looking for a therapist for their abusive husband.

Kathy: So the first story I have for you is eight years ago. I worked at my local domestic violence crisis center, and was invited to become part of a local mental health program. Part of their invitation was so that I could inform their practices to do domestic violence related issues better than what they knew. It was a real opportunity for me.

And the first training I provided for these folks, they were wonderful people, but it became clear they did not know enough about domestic violence, counter-parenting, and just any issue related to family violence.

Lack Of Training In Domestic Abuse

Kathy: So I was compelled to ask the question of the 15 people in the room. They had well over 300 years total of real time practice working with families, and they could only come up with maybe 15 hours of domestic violence or family violence training. And that included their college career. And I was horrified.

Anne: That’s very typical, or even less than that.

Kathy: Even less than that. I committed myself that day to making sure this particular practice got a lot more training than they had. In fact, they asked me to do a training session for mental health practitioners across the state of New Hampshire. But still, it was not enough to address the dearth of information that goes into the programming for mental health practitioners. Another eye opening incident.

I was conducting a retreat, and we asked the participants, there were about 24 of them in the room. How many of you have been into counseling for addressing the domestic violence issues and betrayal trauma symptoms you were dealing with? 23 of those women raised their hands.

And then I said, I’d like to ask, how many of you were actually helped by that counseling? And none of them raised their hands. Then they started sharing stories about how their CSAT therapist actually encouraged them to stay in the abuse. To try a little harder, and stay a little longer.

Anne: Communicate a little better.

Kathy: Yeah, communicate a little better.

Anne: Tell them what your boundaries are. Tell them what you expect.

The Danger Of Couples Therapy In Treating Betrayal Trauma Symptoms

Kathy: What was most interesting was that there were women in that room who were also mental health practitioners. And they were really distressed by the line of questioning. And eventually, after conversations after the retreat, one of them got back to me and said, like, that was eye opening for me. Even though she was one of the people acknowledging, hey, mental health practitioners didn’t help me with betrayal trauma symptoms. They, in fact, contributed to my pain.

Anne: I’ve found that therapists in general do not understand this. When someone goes in for help, they do not approach it from the right angle, especially couples therapy.

Kathy: Couples therapy should not even be a thing. As soon as domestic violence is identified, an ethical mental health practitioner will say, “I’m sorry, I cannot provide services in a conjoined therapeutic session. We need to do this separately.”

Anne: Even if it’s separate, they still don’t understand. Like sometimes that same therapist will relay information from the victim to the perpetrator. Like, Hey, she doesn’t like it when you yada, yada, which puts her in further danger.

Kathy: Absolutely, yep.

Anne: It’s so, so dangerous. The emotional and psychological abuse and the coercion piece are so misunderstood that. I’m concerned about anyone going to therapy, not that I’m like anti-therapy, that’s not what I’m trying to say. But for victims of abuse, it’s not the right way to go if they don’t understand they’re being abused. Because they don’t understand themselves.

And because the therapist only knows what they see, they’re not going to help that victim identify that they are being abused.

Kathy: Well, again, I can share another story.

When Therapy Makes Things Worse

Kathy: This one, my personal account where I was being abused by my ex-husband and decided to go into couples therapy. Because that was what I was encouraged to do. But my ex-husband wouldn’t go. Because, you know, I was the one who had all the problems. And I went anyway, it was with a couple who provided the therapy.

And they were, again, lovely people, but their words created a lot of damage. One of the things they said to me, even after I disclosed that my ex-husband dumped hot spaghetti sauce on me. Because I had made spaghetti for dinner instead of pork chops. They said, well, you need to confess your sins to him and ask him for his forgiveness.

And I was like, what? And that was the last time I ever went for counseling. Again, like you, I’m not anti-counseling, but mental health practitioners must understand domestic violence. Before they should provide any level of care for domestic violence and assault, coercion, and coercive control victims.

Anne: Now, many listeners come to this podcast because their husband uses online explicit material, or has an affair. And they find out that he’s been lying and gaslighting. So when someone, like a guest, or when I use the term domestic violence. They are like, oh, well, this must not be for me, because this isn’t a domestic violence situation. So I tend to use the word domestic abuse to help them understand that it is an abuse issue. But also, it’s a violence issue.

Emotional & Psychological Violence The Broader Scope Of Domestic Abuse

Anne: It’s emotionally and psychologically violent.

Kathy: Yep.

Anne: In Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group, we don’t specialize in physical violence per se, but physical violence will never happen in a vacuum. It’s always going to be preceded by emotional and psychological abuse. So it is under the umbrella of domestic violence.

Women who are here and hearing this word. If you’re like, he doesn’t punch me in the face. This isn’t a domestic violence issue. It might be an abuse issue, it is a domestic violence issue. It is under that umbrella, and it is violence in emotional and psychological ways.

Kathy: Absolutely, 100%. The thing that I would say to those women who say that to themselves. The reason why you may not have seen physical violence yet is because the emotional and non-physical forms of violence he’s using against you are working. They’re doing what he wants them to do.

Every single abuser is absolutely 100% capable of utilizing that more physical form of violence to maintain their dominance in a relationship. I would say between 60 and 65 percent of the women I work with have not experienced severe physical violence. And when I say severe, I’m talking about something other than pushing or pulling.

Anne: Even just standing over them.

Kathy: Punching a wall, throwing things, breaking the victim’s things. Those are all physical forms of violence. None of them are okay, by the way. I’m not trying to minimize the effect of those, but I’m saying, societally, we don’t think it’s a big deal. Until these abusers punch us in the eyes, and there’s a lot more that comes before that that is part of domestic violence.

The Role Of Mental Health Professionals In Treating Betrayal Trauma Symptoms

Kathy: Even though mental health professionals were the reason to do training. I have to say to my shame and regret that domestic violence crisis centers were another reason why. And police departments, judges, and guardians ad litem, the whole system of people out there were the reasons why.

But the other reason was that I needed to succinctly lay out what are trauma informed practices. Even though I’m certain there are way more trauma informed practices. I tried to boil it down to these ten. What trauma survivors need to feel safe. As far as I’m concerned, it’s the most courageous act that any survivor can do is become vulnerable enough to say to somebody else, I need help. I can’t do this alone.

Anne: And then that vulnerable moment having the trauma compounded is so difficult. It’s happened to so many of us here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Which is exactly why I started Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I spent seven years with my emotionally and psychologically abusive ex in addiction recovery. No one said anything about abuse.

Kathy: I’m really sorry.

Anne: For seven years, I’m suffering the symptoms of betrayal trauma under the care of so-called therapeutic professionals. Not knowing that I was being abused. Not only by my ex, but also by proxy, yeah, by the system. It was so awful.

Kathy: I’m really sorry that happened to you.

Anne: Well, and that’s why I thought, I’ve got to get the word out. Don’t go down any other route until you know about abuse. Once you understand abuse well, and you can say, okay, this isn’t abuse. So maybe I can go to therapy, then you’d be in okay shape.

The Danger Of Misguided Therapy

Anne: But if you go there first without knowing about abuse, they’re not going to help you understand it in general. Maybe someone will help. Luckily, some guests on this podcast shared how they went to a particular therapist and received help. So that’s good. I’m not trying to say everybody’s like that.

Kathy: And I’m so happy to hear those successful stories when they happen. I’m like, yeah,

Anne: I don’t know.

Kathy: But it’s very few and far between.

Anne: It is. And I do not want to discount your list. But I think it’s interesting how some people are like, well, I went to this training. And you could succinctly spell out what needs to happen or a list of what needs to happen. And the practitioner or court professional or helper thinks, okay, I got it. No problem. And then they talked to the victim and they think, oh, well, this doesn’t apply to her because…

Kathy: She’s not a victim.

Anne: Because he’s telling me this isn’t what’s going on. And immediately, nothing they just learned is helpful to her. So you just need people who have been through it. Because training doesn’t help professionals either. If they don’t truly understand it, they can’t get past his manipulation.

Kathy: It’s an important point, because here’s the thing. Anytime you see a list like this, it shouldn’t be a check off. Of, yep, I did that, yep, I did that, yep, I did that. These lists should be utilized to take a good, long, hard look at how you conduct yourself. With, for instance, a trauma survivor, and say, will these people say these things about me?

Listening Without Blame Or Judgment

Kathy: This is about getting professionals to think about this trauma survivor. I just worked with someone who identified herself as a trauma survivor. What is she gonna say about me on this app?

Anne: The first item on your list. It’s not funny, but I’m smiling to myself a little bit, and I’ll tell you why. It says, listen to adult or child victims without blame or judgment. The reason why I am thinking of myself in this moment is because when I hear a victim, victim blame themselves, I listen without blame or judgment. But I always want to sort of set them straight, right?

Like, no, no, no, this is not your fault. Nope. And it can sound invalidating to victims experiencing betrayal trauma symptoms. Which I feel bad about, but I want to invalidate the self-abuse. I want to invalidate the ideas they have about themselves that came from the abuser. That they don’t recognize is abuse, and it’s not their fault that they don’t recognize it.

It’s sort of a Catch 22 for someone who understands abuse to listen and redirect the truth of what’s going on. Which is a totally different thing, and not why you wrote this. Because you were intending to call out people who say, well, what could you have done better?

Kathy: I have to go back and speak to the issue you were just talking about. Because it’s not just the abuser that gives the victim the perspective of, well, you’re to blame too, and this is what you’re doing wrong. That’s what you’re doing wrong, our entire society does it.

The Symptoms Of Betrayal Trauma & Power Dynamics In Abuse

Kathy: There’s no more popular social activity out there than blaming and hating victims. So for me, this first step is, you’ve got to listen to somebody who identifies themselves as a victim and has betrayal trauma symptoms. You’ve got to listen to them without adding your own misconceptions and misperceptions about what they’re doing. How they added, how they contributed, how they’re complicit in their own abuse, because abuse comes from a power over dynamic.

And an abuse victim is never a person in power within that specific relationship. So what do I mean by that? If you are somebody who’s being abused. You’re abused because the person who abuses you has decided they are superior to you. And that you are inferior to them in every way, shape, and form.

With somebody like that, you’re not a victim one day and powerful the next day. Where you’re like fighting back. Resistance abuse is a term I can’t stand. It’s not abuse, it’s just resistance.

Anne: Exactly, or it’s resistance to abuse.

Kathy: You have a power dynamic of one person who’s always dominant over the other. Power and control, coercive control, this is what it’s all about. So I like to use the acronym PRIC: Premeditated, Repetitive, Intentional, Conscious and knowing.

Anne: Hmm.

Kathy: That’s how abusers work. They do that to establish their dominance as either the partner or as a parent. And they do it with the intention of destroying your ability to have any sense of safety, well-being, or autonomy.

Anne: Would you add that they use lying, manipulation, and gaslighting to do it?

Kathy: Yeah, yeah they use a bunch of tools in their tool belt to do that.

The Intentionality Of Abusers

Kathy: People will ask me all the time, is it intentional? Let me tell you how intentional it is. I have another example. My abuser used to sleep at night with his fingers wrapped through my hair. I couldn’t even get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom without him knowing.

https://youtu.be/020px4mdTX4

So even in his sleep, he was intentional in knowing exactly where I was and what I was doing at all times. So, it is true that victims will say things that indicate they are taking on the blame for abuse that is happening to them. And I think it is perfectly okay, certainly, I have done it hundreds of times, if not thousands of times. To ask them, can I reframe that for you for a minute? Can we talk about the power dynamic here? What was happening in your mind as you did X, Y, Z?

Were you doing that in the moment to be dominant over him? Or were you trying to get some semblance of self autonomy back? Or were you trying to defend yourself or your children? And so deconstructing what that victim calls, I contributed to the abuse. Not to deny them their experience. But to say, like, hey, let’s reframe this to think about what was happening here, because self defense is not abuse.

Anne: One of the problems is that abusers will claim their abuse was self defense. No matter how bad she’s suffering from betrayal trauma symptoms. She wouldn’t let me use, I couldn’t take it anymore. I had to take a stand, they might say. But if you ask, what was it that she was pushing for truth, transparency, equality?

Reframing Victim Blame

Kathy: And, again, it’s about looking at the totality of that relationship. To say, where was your dominance in that moment? You were withholding significant information from her. That caused her to feel like you were not trustworthy, that you were putting her at risk for STI’s. Or that, you were belittling or making small the vows of your wedding that she was taking seriously.

Like, there’s always that power dynamic that the perpetrator maintains, even as he is trying to get the victim to take the blame for what her reaction may have been in the moment.

Anne: We mentioned it just barely about the idea of mutual abuse or reactive abuse. So for example, you’re experiencing abuse, so you were abusive to him. Is the idea that BTR.ORG emphatically rejects you’re just resisting or trying to defend yourself from abuse. Which is a totally different thing.

Can you talk about why maybe the typical therapist might suggest this? Or maybe an abuse victim might think she’s being abusive in response to his abuse?

Kathy: One of the most common ideas around that is it takes two to tango. If you’re in counseling, especially in a co-counseling or couples counseling type of therapeutic relationship. It’s their nature to find where both parties are at fault.

Anne: That’s the foundational theoretical underpinning of their training. It’s family systems. That is the schooling they received. I also think that under the certification and licensure, it’s unethical for them to pick a side. Right? Because of the family systems theory with which they’ve been trained.

Betrayal Trauma Symptoms, Resources, & The Role of Clergy In Abuse Disclosure

Kathy: It’s an aside, but the more I’ve seen the resources available. The only training I’ve seen on trauma informed practices that I think is worthwhile is the training through Dr. Jessica Taylor in the United Kingdom.

Anne: I’ve had her on the podcast before. She’s great.

Kathy: Because she specifically rejects any concept that would re-brand, re-victimize, or make somebody culpable in their own abuse for men’s violence against women. She would not pathologize women for being victims of men’s violence. Mother Justice Network, by the way, also completely rejects the idea of mutual abuse or reactive abuse.

Anne: So many listeners to this podcast, when they find out about their husband’s online explicit material use, for example. Simultaneously, find out that he has been lying to her for years. Most of the time, they’re like a church going type man, right? So it’s assumed he wouldn’t participate in this type of behavior.

Many victims, when they find out, the first thing they do is go to clergy. And say, Hey, this is what’s going on. They think maybe clergy can help them. This amounts to a victim disclosing abuse, right?

Emotional and psychological abuse are what cause betrayal trauma and all the horrible symptoms that to along with it. But she might not know that’s what he’s doing. And 99% of the time, the clergy does not know that that’s what’s occurring. And so this disclosure of abuse ends up abusing her more in this setting with clergy. But it can happen with therapists or even law enforcement officers, or even the domestic violence shelter.

The Risks Of Disclosing Abuse

Anne: So let’s talk about some possible ramifications of disclosing abuse. Whether or not you know it’s abuse and are experiencing betrayal trauma symptoms. Women who listen to this podcast have done this because they didn’t know it was abuse. So it wasn’t their fault. They were trying to get help – I mean you’d think it would be easy to figure out where can someone who is abused get help So they understand the risks and ramifications more than the general population.

Kathy: Any time information gets back to someone who is abusive, there will always be a risk of retaliation. Because of making a disclosure of any kind. I think one of the first things anybody listening to this podcast should ask anyone is. “I need to say something to you, I need to tell you something. But I need to know under what circumstances would you share any bit of my disclosure with somebody else, including my partner.”

Because if they can’t say to you, we will not disclose anything unless we have your specific written permission to make a disclosure. We will not make a disclosure because it is unsafe. Abusers, when they know they’re being outed, react potentially in a few ways.

But the ones that I can think of immediately are they come back at you with anger, and their anger is always dangerous. Or they start spreading lies about you. I call it, she’s the bitter, violent, lying, lazy, crazy, drunken, druggie, money grub and slut defense. Or I call it building social equity. They try to collect as many flying monkeys around them so they can start discrediting you and what your perspective is. Leaving you feeling isolated and alone. It’s never a good response.

The Problem With Therapeutic Disclosure

Kathy: So disclosure, like even to somebody you think you can trust. You have to ask, what would you potentially do with disclosures that I make? Because it’s important, really important for your own physical and emotional safety. That you know what’s happening to that disclosure after it’s made.

Anne: Now, disclosure is a very fraught word here at BTR.ORG. Because any listener who has gone through addiction recovery with the abuser. Usually the therapist wants to do a disclosure with the perpetrator. To write down all his use, affairs and all of his compulsive behavior.

So they’ll list it all out and say, okay, we’re going to do this therapeutic disclosure. They don’t identify the victim with betrayal trauma symptoms and the perpetrator, because both of them are victims of the addiction, so to speak.

Kathy: That’s really a thing?

Anne: This is really a thing, yeah.

Kathy: I’m horrified by what you just said.

Anne: Yeah. It’s really a thing. So basically, the therapist says to her, “This is going to be hard for him. We need to support him through this disclosure.” They might do like a therapeutic polygraph at the end, which we do not recommend because they do not help. She is the ultimate decision maker about whether she is safe, if she feels safe. Many times after that polygraph, the therapist is like, well, he’s told us everything, and the polygraph has confirmed it.

So I don’t know why you’re feeling stressed still and feeling betrayal trauma symptoms. He’s doing great. Now, I guess we have to deal with your trauma. As in, you’re a problem because you feel this trauma, and the trauma is the problem, not his abuse.

The Importance Of Safe Reporting Of Abuse

Anne: And so now you become like this crazy person, because he’s fine. He’s done everything he’s supposed to do, and you’re still suffering from the effects of betrayal trauma.

Kathy: That is the ultimate systemic gaslighting, and I want to vomit right now.

Anne: Yeah, it’s really, really bad. I want to acknowledge that as women listen. Because many of them have maybe either considered this addiction recovery, therapeutic disclosure, or someone has suggested it to them. That word disclosure can be very triggering for victims of abuse in this setting, in this context. So she’s talking about reporting the abuse, which is probably the word I would use here, so that we don’t get it confused with therapeutic disclosure.

And then, make sure the person you report to is safe. That is key. We have a The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop that helps women decipher who is safe and who is not. When they start their journey to safety. So that they’re not accidentally reporting the abuse to someone. It could even be a neighbor. Who will get back to him about what’s going on.

Kathy: Can I give you an example of what something safe might sound like?

Anne: Sure, yeah.

Kathy: This is the conversation I have with everybody who calls me from the moment the phone rings, and I pick up the phone. I say, listen, before we get into what you want to tell me about, there are a few things I want you to know about me.

How To Identify Safe Helpers

Kathy: First and foremost, I believe you. You don’t have to convince me of anything. I know that if you’re reaching out to me, it’s because you are in a storm of unsafety and feeling betrayal trauma symptoms for yourself and your kids. That you are so desperate that you need support. I let them know right from the beginning, I believe you.

There’s no having to tell me anything that you don’t want to tell me to get to a place where I believe you. And anybody who would qualify their statement by saying, I have to check in with the other party. No, you don’t. No, you do not. Nobody likes to identify themselves as victims, least of all victims, because there’s no crown at the end of victimization. There isn’t anybody giving us a standing ovation. Nobody likes to identify as a victim.

So, when somebody says, I’m being victimized by somebody. We, the society around them, need to say, “Okay, we believe you. How can we help you?”

Anne: Absolutely, if you have to twist yourself in all kinds of ways to get someone to believe you, they are not safe.

Kathy: Not a safe person, yeah.

Anne: That’s a good one. If they have to check in with the other person. Or think, well, this is this side of the story. But you know, every story has two sides.

Kathy: It takes two to tango! Yeah.

Anne: It takes one to not tango. I mentioned this before when I was talking about how sometimes I talk to victims and they tell me that part of their story. And it includes some victim blaming or it includes some of the abuse that they’ve experienced that they don’t recognize is abuse. So they’re parroting the abuse.

The Burden Of Proving Victimization

Anne: Again, not their fault. They don’t understand what’s happening. They believe certain things about themselves due to the abuse. And so their experience when they describe it, usually a therapist’s role is to validate that and help them move through that. So how do we validate their betrayal trauma harms and support victims and their live experience, while also educating them about abuse and what has happened to them?

Kathy: And I think this goes back to a concept I was talking about earlier. I said, I have them share their experiences in their words to me, then I will ask permission. Would it be okay if I reframe this? You know, you’re telling me that he forces you to have relations when you’re feeling sick. Or when you’re not feeling up to feeling loving.

Can I reframe that for you? In most states, that would be considered assault. Even if you’re married, or even if you’re in partnership. So if you’re not feeling up to having relations, if you’re feeling sick or tired. And you haven’t given consent, that is a form of assault.

That’s many times how this conversation comes to me. Because the women I talk with tell me all kinds of examples of how their partner refused to take no for an answer. And they’re ticking off almost every checkbox regarding assault. And yet they won’t call it assault.

So for me to say like, is it okay if I reframe this for you and give you my perspective on it? If they’re like, no. I had a survivor once who was angry with me because she absolutely 100% percent believed that she was codependent with her perpetrator.

Reframing & Educating About Abuse

Kathy: It was a Facebook conversation. I said, I’d like to reframe this for you. This is why codependency is problematic, it is a victim blaming concept. That victim blocked me after getting upset with me and explaining her reasonings and why it made sense to her.

Sure, I make mistakes. It’s important that I acknowledge them. I needed to hear why that perspective was important to her. I still think it is appropriate to allow that reframing. So that they can start shifting their understanding, their lack of understanding leaves them in abuse. It may be for other people that they contact. It’s about making sure we’re gently educating as long as somebody has the capacity to hear it.

If they don’t have that capacity yet, it’s okay to let it be for now. Just encourage them to get other perspectives and other education. Sometimes they hang on to that perspective. out of a survival mechanism or survival skill. And we don’t want to take away what is helping them survive.

Anne: I can see better now that I am post abuse, but I remember being there. I remember people saying little things to me and me, like pushing it away or thinking that that wasn’t the case. Only to realize later, oh, that was it. And it was a survival mechanism for me. It is for all survivors.

Kathy: Another reframe that I ask people to do a lot is that the concept of that idea of, well, that victim is lying to me. I’m not going to help her because she’s lying to me. I say to the person who’s saying that, the person who wants to be the helper, can we please reframe that and think about it, as she’s not ready to trust you yet?

The Right To Edit Your Story

Kathy: As opposed to she’s lying to me, and when I think of it that way, when I say this person isn’t ready to trust me yet, I can go back to them. And say, listen, I can understand that you don’t know if I’m trustworthy yet. If you don’t want to tell me something, it’s okay. If I ask you a question, it’s never to deny your experience or to challenge you. It’s only to make sure I fully understand what’s happening, so I can get you to the best help possible.

But if you don’t trust me with information, it’s okay to keep it to yourself until you feel I am trustworthy. That just allows women to just like have this big burden roll off their shoulders. Like, she’s not going to accuse me of lying. Because I, as a helper, no matter how good my intentions are. Until they understand who I am and how I work, I don’t get the privilege of automatic access to their victimization story. It’s bold of me to think that I might.

And it is important that victims have the right to edit their stories by how safe they are feeling in my presence.

Kathy’s Website & Final Thanks

Anne: Thank you so much for the work you do. You are incredible. And I appreciate you taking the time to share with us. Kathy will be back on the podcast, talking about a few other topics. We’ll talk about how kids become abusers aligned through the abusers, gaslighting and manipulation of the children.

And also talk about the unique challenges, heartaches, and hardships of mothers accused of “parental alienation.” To maintain control and coercively control her and her children. We’ll cover those topics in a few months. So stay tuned, because she is an amazing advocate and has so much to share with you.

Kathy: Thank you, Anne. You do amazing work, too.