“The White House and the spectacle of the war in Iran”

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But just seems so insane based on what he ran on.

I mean, this is why a lot of people feel betrayed, right?

He ran on no more wars, and these stupid senseless wars.

And then we have one that we can't even really clearly define why we did it.

Well, but he said he's against endless wars.

Well, they're getting his endless wisdom and they're all endless.

I know, I know. Why more Joe Rogan?

I'll tell you why because no one, no one aided Donald Trump in the final weeks of his presidential run more than that guy.

So to hear him articulate regret and remorse is something.

Hi again, everybody.

It's now five o'clock in New York, cause an effect.

Go about an historic betrayal of your own political coalition, including Joe Rogan,

and watch them reject you publicly.

But that embattic disassociation with Donald Trump's war in Iran isn't just a Joe Rogan thing.

It isn't just happening in the manosphere.

It appears to be a whole of American culture thing.

Consider one slice of this story in particular that garish and grotesque montages

published on social media by the White House lately.

The most recent a video of bombs dropping in Iran spliced with big hits from the NFL,

including Hall of Famers, Ed Read and Ray Lewis.

It's video we wouldn't normally show you here, but we do because of the outrage around the videos.

And the corners is coming from all corners of American life.

From the Huffington Post, quote,

a representative for Ray Lewis confirmed to the Huff Post that the White House did not reach out to him or his team for the video.

Quote,

I did not approve my image or football highlights being used to compare football to war.

Lewis said in a statement to Huff Post,

quote, the game I love is about discipline, brotherhood, and respect.

War is something entirely different.

Lives are at stake.

God bless our troops and their families.

Ed Read on the other hand posted simply, quote,

I do not approve this message end quote.

In similar fashion, the White House cut up real life drone strike footage with movie scenes,

including Tropic Thunder.

That film's director Ben Stiller replied like this, quote,

Hey White House, please remove the Tropic Thunder clip.

We never gave you permission and have no interest in being part of your propaganda machine.

War is not a movie end quote.

Outside of podcast world and Hollywood,

the archbishop of Chicago amplified that message as well in a statement that read in part, quote,

our government is treating the suffering of the Iranian people as a backdrop for our own entertainment.

As if it's just another piece of content to be swiped through while we're waiting in line at the grocery store.

But in the end, we lose our humanity when we are thrilled by the destructive power of our military.

We've become addicted to the spectacle of explosions and the price of this habit is almost unnoticeable

as we become desensitized to the true cost of war.

But the longer we remain blind to the terrible consequences of war,

the more we are risking the most precious gift God gave us, our humanity.

I know that the American people are better than this.

We have the good sense to know that what is happening is not entertainment, but war.

And that Iran is a nation of people, not a video game.

Others play to entertain us.

The broad scope of America's pushback is no surprise taking into account with the New York Times

published this week the historic unpopularity associated with Donald Trump's war in Iran,

compared to other conflicts over a number of decades.

That is where we start the hour.

President of Media Matters for America,

Angelo Carasones here, also joining us,

Senior Contributing Editor, Michel Norris.

And with me at the table,

had off a fantastic turn on Stephen Colbert's program, Paul Reichoff is here.

He's the host of the Independent Americans podcast

and the founder and CEO of Independent Veterans of America.

I want to ask you what you think of these condemnations of the efforts to market the war.

It's really important.

It's a breaking point, I think, and it might be even something better.

In every crisis, there's an opportunity.

This might be the most unifying moment that we can remember in America.

You are never positive.

You're blowing my mind right now.

This is not what I thought you already said.

I mean, there is a lot of death and destruction, and this is very, very bad.

But there's also a moment happening where you lost Joe Rogan.

You definitely don't want to piss off Ray Lewis and Reed on any level, right?

New Gingrich.

Explain why.

Explain why that's the problem.

So many different segments and these all, they have so much reach that goes beyond politics,

right? When you're talking about...

Well, that's totally the other side of our civic life.

Yeah, and people who are trusted, right?

Like people trust Ray Lewis.

He won a Super Bowl, right?

You've got people even New Gingrich today, right?

It's an entire spectrum of people from all political backgrounds

who are saying no to this war in Iran and no to boots on the ground and no to more.

I think it's important because it comes right after the stunning lack of popularity around ice.

So it's like a one, two-punch that's crossing all different partisan backgrounds.

And I think it can be a moment for the country to come together.

If not around Trump specifically with some of his heart, his base still has a problem with

around the war in Iran, around ice, and around American values because war reveals who people are.

The best of you or the worst of you.

And it's revealing how terrible Donald Trump is, how despicable he is, and how shameless he is.

I mean, he wouldn't accept responsibility today.

In that moment when they asked him, you know, will you take responsibility?

He didn't do it and the leader is supposed to be responsible for everything we do

and everything we fail to do and the buck stops with him and everybody can see it.

And what is it about?

What is it that gives people newfound confidence to reject him?

It's popular.

Like, you know, I think that this has happened at the award shows and the Grammys.

There were these moments where people kind of broke the ice, right?

And that was important because it was tough to attack Trump.

Ice was like a gateway.

It was an on ramp. They could attack ice without saying Trump's name.

And that kind of built a level of popular support.

And it became popular to oppose ice and became popular to come out against the Iran war.

And that gives people permission to enter the conversation, especially if they're

only tracking on sports. And that's the real problem here.

Is he's crossed into sports?

He's crossed into SpongeBob.

He's crossed into everything.

So the entire country is watching and they don't like what they see.

Yeah, I mean, Michelle, I think that Paul had done something really important

when the history of these times is written.

Two people will have put everything that we're covering today in motion.

One, the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein and Galene Maxwell's heinous abuse.

And two, the citizens of Minneapolis.

Yeah.

And, you know, I do think Paul is right about this being an on ramp.

But I'm not sure that people are standing up against this because it's popular.

I mean, we're at war.

War is something that people take very seriously.

And this White House doesn't seem to be taking this seriously.

I mean, we, you know, just two days ago, the president was calling this an excursion,

which I think he probably maybe meant incursion instead of excursion.

But, you know, they're not even willing to explain this to the public.

You know, as to that video, one of the European news outlets called it Slapaganda.

And I think that that's a pretty good word to describe the use of these intercutting videos

to turn war into some sort of game theory, the gamification of war.

It does not do anything to advance the work and the effort of the soldiers that are involved

in this war right now.

It does nothing to project strength or discipline.

It does nothing to secure the homeland here on the ground where people are very worried

about their own safety and security.

And let's just remember that the person who's in charge of terror threats in the Department

of Homeland Security is a 23-year-old who just recently graduated from college

and has worked as, I think, a gardener at some point in the past.

And a grocery store clerk has no national security background.

And most of the people who had national security backgrounds at the FBI have also been dismissed.

So the public sees all of this.

They saw what happened in Minneapolis and they saw the value in speaking up.

They saw the country, they saw the president take us to war without an explanation about why we're

there or what the objective is or what the game plan is.

And I think more and more people are willing to speak out against this.

And this is, remember, the public opinion is at the beginning.

It has nowhere to go but down at this point.

It's at historic lows.

Let me put those numbers up, Angelo.

I mean, there is no example of wars becoming more popular as men and women in the military,

pay with their lives.

Eight service members have died.

140 have been injured.

And 41% of Americans support the war.

At this point in World War II, 97% supported it.

After 9-11, at this point in the war in Afghanistan, 92% supported it.

At this point, the Persian Gulf War in 1991, 82% of Americans supported it.

Panama, 89%, 80%.

The Iraq War in 2003 at this point, 73% of Americans supported.

Those numbers would drop dramatically.

1950, 75% of Americans supported the Korean War at this point.

Coast of 0, 58% down to 41% right now.

It's a real tragedy for the military.

It doesn't have a say in when the country goes to war.

But that number is squarely because of Donald Trump's conduct in taking the country to war.

We've been tracking over the last 12 days.

There are nine public explanations for why we're there.

There are four timelines that have been articulated.

And yesterday, it was, quote, almost completed in just beginning.

So we've talked for years now about narrative dominance.

There is no narrative grasp on the war in Iran.

No, and I think a lot of our conversations sort of dovetail with with those numbers that you

pointed out because when you have narrative dominance, you can affect people's perceptions and

feelings about a particular issue. You can shape the vibes.

And if you don't, like you have right now, you get the opposite.

People can actually they can get they can get their experience a bit unfiltered or unadulterated.

Those numbers would be very different if all of these cultural figures were cheerleading it

or at minimum saying nothing, as Paul noted, it's created a permission structure for more people

to talk about it. Or if Joe Rogan was out there explaining a rationale for why we really need

to be doing this and why you need to give the administration more time and space.

At minimum, it could help be a buffer for people to say, okay, maybe I should hold off of a second.

For all these figures, we're doing what they had been doing for Trump for all these years.

And backfilling his policies, his claims with their own narrative reinforcement,

would be in a different place. And so it is really forcing why it matters so much.

And I was so glad you made that point in the opening because I do get it when people talk

about Joe Rogan, I hear the so what? And the so what is exactly what you articulated? It has an

effect on the perception. And then by extension, the hope is that it has a perfect on the politics,

which is how you get changed. That bottom, the perception that we're seeing in the public,

is so different now. It hasn't yet affected the way Republicans who actually have the

levers of power and checks here can actually change the way or what the what the president's doing

will change the course and direction here. But it is brewing and it is simmering. Just another

example as I was thinking about the what you and Paul were talking about the beginning about

the wide scale culture. One figure who's been out against this is this guy Sneco. He's probably

one of the most influential people that people in politics and this audience have never heard of.

He's a huge online influencer did video games. Now he does right wing politics or really far

right politics and his audience is huge and highly engaged. And he was out there calling those

videos sloped criticizing the war saying that the plan that the that the Trump administration had

no plan. This made no sense. I mean, this is a far right online streamer who every other day is

spouting nonsense who is out there telling his audience that the current president and the

plan is more ridiculous than the day-to-day programming that he provides. And that is a reinforcement

of just how widespread this is. Yeah, sure, there are pockets that are all in on this war. But it

is far and few between. And that means that Trump is not able to tell a narrative and this engine

behind it is not able to backfill it and shape the perception and the politics. What's interesting

to me, Paul, I'm just saying is so Trump beats Lindsey Graham in the 2015 Republican primary

and sort of sides with the isolationism, which Trump sees before the Republican

his opponents in the primary do. And now he's siding with Lindsey Graham in foreign policy.

Let me show you the hot war of words between Lindsey Graham and Megan Kelly.

To our friends in Spain, man, you have lost your way. I don't want to do business with you

anymore. I want our air bases out of Spain into a country that will let us use them. To our

Arab friends, I've tried to help you construct a new Middle East. You need to up your game here.

I can't go to South Carolina and say we're fighting and you won't publicly fight. What you're doing

behind the scenes, that has to stop. The double dealing of the Arab world when it comes to this

stuff needs to end. I will send Lindsey Graham donuts for life if anyone in South Carolina actually

walks up to Lindsey Graham and complains about Spain. But let me read Megan Kelly's response.

Quote, when did Lindsey Graham become our president? In the past 24 hours,

he, Lindsey Graham, has threatened Lebanon, Cuba, the Saudis, the wider Arab region, and now

checks notes, Spain. Let's get real. The problem with Lindsey Graham isn't just that he's a

homicidal maniac. It's that Donald Trump likes him and is listening to him. And Trump's favorite

channel is parading him around like a Heffner bunny in stockings on every show.

I am in the rare position of agreeing with Megan Kelly.

Lindsey Graham is a spectacular, raging, aggressive, violent hot mess. And he is bad for America.

This is why I wish that Stephen Colbert would go back to South Carolina and run against him because

Lindsey Graham is bad for America. And he's also very bad for Donald Trump. I don't think he's

helping. Even Megan McCain called him out on that this week. I think it's also really important

that Steve Bannon also has been aggressive in criticizing directly to camera Donald Trump. Look,

the American people are not stupid. They're slow sometimes, right? We saw that on a rock. We've

seen that before, but they're not stupid. And they know when someone's lying to them and they

know when someone's changing their position. And he promised people no regime change wars.

He promised them no new wars. He promised them no forever. We're so did Tulsi Gabbard and a

cacophony of everyone around him. And they know that this is a lie. And I think that that's where I

have faith in the American people to push back. But I'm also concerned because Donald Trump doesn't

care about public opinion. He continues to go forward. So this is another moment for the Democrats.

And of course, the Republicans, what's your strategy to stop him if he doesn't care about public

opinion? And he keeps going anyway. I mean, Tulsi Gabbard is an interesting case, Michelle.

Tulsi Gabbard, NJD bands, and Pete Hegseth. I think all rose to exist in Donald Trump's

circle because they so agreed with him on his promise over the course of three presidential

elections to never get the country embroiled in another war in the Middle East.

Well, we have an LBM candidate, loyalty before merit. You know, this cabinet talks a lot about

a bit of DEI. There are several people who are in positions that are beyond their reach in any

other administration. And so the president is not surrounded by people who will tell him the truth,

who will challenge him in any way. And he's not willing to then turn around and try to explain

this word of the public. I was looking at the graphic that you showed the popularity of wars

at the start. You know, in previous administrations, presidents have had to bring the public along

with them. In the 1940s, they had to sell World War II. The American public was

battle fatigued after World War I, but there was a fear of fascism and democracies falling

overseas. And so they made the case. In the 2000s, they made the case after people were worried

about terrorism after 9-11. And so they made the case for Afghanistan and then later Iran.

The president here is not willing to make any kind of coherent case. He's not willing to make a

case at all. And this is before the public opinion is as low as it is before you see the normal

drivers that will sink public opinion about a war. When you see as the Cardinal talked about

the link between the battlefield and the living room, before people start seeing images, we saw

the images from Dover Delaware. If war continues, as it usually does, you will see much more of that.

You will see images of things that will really turn public opinion. And the other thing,

you know, to bounce to a different war in Vietnam, one of the things that really drove public

opinion there were the Vietnam veterans themselves coming back. And speaking out against a war that

they didn't understand and did not feel good to them. And so the public opinion is low at this

point without those kind of drivers. And when that starts happening, you know, it has nowhere to go

but down. All right. No one's going anywhere. I also had this hour. There's brand new reporting

about how Donald Trump is not only using the FBI to investigate his debunked and false claims

about the 2020 election in the state of Arizona, but also a branch of the Department of Homeland

Security, usually charged with fighting drug cartels, all in a likely effort to undermine November's

midterm election results. Arizona's governor will be our guest and must be done to protect and

safeguard democracy ahead of the midterms. That's later in the hour. Do they might house continues

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We have taken away our markets. The tariffs are now made in the

input cost too high. I'm looking at selling the family farm. They want us to fight for them.

We're going to fight for them and when we get back into control, we're going to make sure

that we not just fix the problems, but we make things better than they were before.

We show folks that we're willing to fight for average families, and that we're not going to

waste our nation's resources, whether that is our natural resources or whether that is the most

important resource, the most valuable resource we have, the men and women who wear the colors of

this nation. That is a winning message whether Democrats can stick to that, whether Senator

Duckworth can get all of her colleagues on that message or not. I think we'll see that play out

in the coming days. But I mean, Angela, that is the political battlefield on which the next

eight months will play out, and that is the battlefield on which Democrats are winning over and

over and over again in solidly red, solidly Trump-y legislative races and state races.

Yeah, and I think that ties in in two ways with what we were talking about in the first segment.

One is, you know, we talk about when Trump and the right has narrative dominance,

they're projecting their message, they're controlling the story. One of the effects of that, though,

is that it's very, very difficult for anybody else to get their message through,

because they've so crowded out anything else. And when you have this moment, like we were talking

about all the disruption and the fact that they're all over the place and they don't have, you know,

there's not, you know, there's all these spaces, all these cracks, which means there's a place for

you to go. And so when you have a really good message now, as Senator Duckworth was pointing out,

and even if that's not the perfect message, if you have the impetus to fight, it actually has

greater chance of being of rewards, of working, of building political will, of building wider

coalitions and bases of support, because unlike in previous situations, where they have total

control over their communications landscape, they don't right now. So if you do a really good job,

you'll have a good chance of getting something back politically and it working and building political

power. That's how Trump could political power. He used the information landscape, built an organized

power on the fringes and then controlled the center as a consequence of it. And he took

advantage of the landscape. Well, this is a meaningful part of the landscape. And then the tie into

something Michele was talking about, which is that, you know, as more and more of these people that

are in the military either come back or start to speak up more, we're going to hear more about what's

being said there. And one of the narratives that we don't talk about a lot in the national media

that is sinking through at least in the operational side of this is that this is a holy war.

Now, I remember being on the show when when when Senator, when Pete Heggs was first appointed and

one of the things, because I remember he was a media figure. One of the things that was so clear

at the time is that he saw the military as a flaming sword for Christ. And that is playing out

in the way that they are talking about this at the front lines as one of the reasons why they're

doing this is that this is somehow a bigger thing. And the rest of the Christian media is backing

that up that this is the prophecy that Trump has been put there by God. And we're going to start

hearing those stories, not just stories of incompetence and all the terrible stuff that we're beginning

to see. We're also going to see the ridiculous crazy reasons why they're putting people on the

front line and how they've been treating the troops and the soldiers that they're putting in

harm's way. And the things that they're making them do for all these weird reasons. And that's

going to further incentivize people. So when you're in the ring and in the arena, it gives you a

chance to also use that information as it comes back to actually really maybe turn the tides here.

I'm not an optimist, but this is a real opportunity and we shouldn't lose sight of that.

I have a million more questions about the religious piece. I'm going to follow up with you on that.

But I just want to put out a couple of names. I mean, what would Senator Duckworth said is a

message you hear from Senator Kelly, Senator Slotkin, Congressman Crow. I mean, there, you know,

one, it's, you know, it's one, but there is a group of Democrats and those Democrats have gone

toe-to-toe with Donald Trump of the video they made telling men and women of the military to

disobey an illegal order. Senator Duckworth has always been a fighter. It's, you know, it's,

it's sort of her, her relationship with her constituents and her relationship with her country.

I wonder if you see in them this sort of winning front, forward sort of political messaging.

I see potential. And I have tremendous respect for Tammy Duckworth. I'm honored to know her. She

sacrificed two of her legs for this country. She is the right kind of messenger. It's kind of a

choose your fighter moment, right? Where you got to put people up against Hexeth and Trump who are

dominating the narrative. But they have to have more than messengers. They have to have a message

which is starting to develop. But most importantly, they need a plan. They continue to criticize Trump

appropriately for not having a plan on Iran. The question now for the Democrats is what is your

plan to stop Iran? Is it just wait till November and we're going to win the election? Stop the war

and Iran? Stop the war and Iran to stop boots on the ground to stop him from going into Cuba.

How are you going to get ahead of him and finally stop him from doing anything? And I think this

is where the Democrats have to be more specific in their goals and their planning. They shut down

the government over health care. They shut down DHS appropriately over ICE. What are they going to

shut down to stop the caskets from coming home? That's what I think the American people want to hear.

And they can't assume that they're going to be free in fair elections in November. So what are

you going to do to ensure that there are? Because Trump has made it clear he will disrupt the

elections. He does not want to open him free election. And there is a danger right now,

which is Trump's desperation. He is very low in the polls. He is very desperate. He's talking

about the threats to the homeland, which are real. Despite his messaging, the FBI is now reporting

there could be drone threats to California. Those threats are real. So if a bad moment happens,

we have to be able to offer an alternative narrative, but also an alternative plan.

Talk about what Andrew is talking about, the inner connectedness of religious messaging.

I've said this from when Pete Exeth was nominated. He is a culture warrior. I've called him the

acting secretary of culture war because he was put there first to make the Pentagon an instrument

of the culture war. And they started there. They threw a Hail Mary. They got it through and then

everything else became easy after that. So they've been waging the culture war within the Pentagon,

banning books, removing rights for women, pushing Christianity, changing the way pastors and the

religion is interwoven into everything. And now they're turning the Pentagon as the tip of the

spear for their culture war, not just in the US, in the streets and by extension ice, but to the

Middle East and to the world. This is in many ways the most dangerous course of action with Trump

and a group of culture warriors at the forefront. But now the challenge, not just for Democrats,

but for Americans. And I think for independence, especially who are 45 percent. What is the

alternative? What is the alternative plan for America? Who are the alternative leaders? Not just in

politics, but especially around the outside of the military, retired generals. This is a time

for them to meet the moment too. I mean, we saw this at a state level. The state officials

sort of responding are seeming to channel the energy and courage of their own constituents.

Where are you seeing this across the country? Well, I think you're seeing it at the state level.

I think you're seeing it in some pulpits. It's interesting how people are now using their

sermons. You noted the cardinal in Chicago. I think you're probably going to hear that in

other places. You know, when Paul was talking about the message that people are expecting,

I think people are also looking for reassurances now. I went back and looked at the messages that

previous presidents have delivered to the public when they have led the country into war. We are in a

really strange moment, Nicole. We are engaged in a war without a declaration of war. We are

engaged in a war without an explanation for war. We are engaged in a war without clear objectives

about what that war is supposed to achieve. I think if Democrats and independents,

but particularly Democrats because they are in charge, can figure out how to step into that space

and to provide assurances, but also a reality check on the very real threats that we face.

In other countries that are not directly involved in this, they're already communicating with the

public about what they should be doing. It matters of security to protect themselves and their

families when they travel about whether we might see some sort of cyber threat. I think Democrats

would be smart if they stepped into that space. It's such a good point. It's such a weird moment,

and it's so weird to have reporters on and say, what do they say to you? They're like, well,

it's nothing or everything. To hear Donald Trump in one news cycle, say the war is nearly

complete and just starting. It's almost so convoluted. It's hard to believe it's really happening.

Angelo and Paul, thank you so much for this conversation. To be continued, Michelle

sticks around a little bit longer. When we come back, the governor of Arizona, a state that is

becoming ground zero for Donald Trump's efforts to make false claims of voter fraud,

as a pretext to taking control of the midterm elections. How Democrats are fighting those efforts

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As the Republican Party's midterm chances look increasingly dim,

with Donald Trump abandoning every single campaign pledge that helped propel him to the White House,

Trump has turned to lies about the integrity of America's elections in order to bolster his

party's chances in a bizarre sort of bank shot. The Associated Press is reporting that at a

Republican retreat earlier this week, as members of Donald Trump's own political party begged him

to focus on the economy and pocketbook issues, Donald Trump begged them to pass restrictive

voting legislation instead based on his lie they didn't actually lose the 2020 presidential

election to Joe Biden. Donald Trump calling for legislation to ban mail-in ballots saying this,

quote, it'll guarantee the midterms if you don't get it big trouble and quote whatever that means.

The Trump administration has also weaponized the federal government, including the national security

agencies to go after some of the states he views as most responsible for his electoral defeat

in 2020. ABC News is reporting that a branch of the Department of Homeland Security,

known as Homeland Security Investigations, which is typically tasked with investigating drug

cartels and human trafficking networks, has been diverted instead to investigate the 2020

election in Arizona. In response, Arizona officials are rushing to protect sensitive data, warning

counties not to hand over full unredacted voter files to the federal government. Vote beat writes

this quote. Attorney General Chris Mays and Secretary of State Adrian Fontes wrote in a joint

letter to county recorders that disclosure of such materials to the U.S. Department of Justice

would quote, violate both federal and state law. They urge the recorders who control voter

registration data to quote, fulfill your oath by declining any such illegal demands.

Mays and Fontes stop short of promising litigation against anyone who gave voter information

to the federal agencies so they hinted at it. Quote, our offices are committed to upholding

the sanctity of Arizona's elections and democratic process to let her read. We will pursue to the

fullest extent of the law, all possible remedies to ensure the integrity of Arizona's elections

and the privacy rights of our citizens. I want to bring in Arizona's governor, Governor Katie Hobbs.

Governor, thank you for being here. Thanks for having me. How weird and surreal is it to be

protecting an election result when literally all of Donald Trump's political allies

were in office at every level, not that that should matter, but it is a fact. And his close political

allies came in and audited the election. I mean, he had political allies in the state legislature.

What is this reach into Arizona's elections really about in your view?

Well, I feel like I'm having deja vu. We're seeing the same playbook that we saw in 2020,

where leading into the election, the president tried to so doubt and undermine voters' confidence

in the systems. And then, obviously, we saw play out Arizona becoming ground zero for these

election integrity conspiracies. These election results were litigated multiple times. They were

investigated, reviewed, audited. If you can call it an audit so many times, only to find out that

the election results were actually the election results. And Donald Trump actually lost.

I was Secretary of State then. I stood up to defend the will of the voters over and over again.

And we're back in that in that place. We have to do that again, unfortunately.

And you mentioned all of the issues that are facing Americans, people wanting the president to

focus on the economy. And instead, we're focusing on this election that happened five and a half

years ago. And I think what's really concerning to me, I'm in a race for re-election right now.

My very likely opponent is not just an election denier, but one of Donald Trump's chief election

deniers. He's in Congress. He helped organize January 6th. He sought a pardon for his role in that.

He has defied congressional subpoenas. And he said that on day one, he will get to work

overhauling our election system. That doesn't need overhauling just to continue to gain Donald Trump's

favor. And that is alarming. It means that this election is not just important for Arizona. It's

important for the country. And I'm going to continue to stand up for democracy. I hope folks will

join me in that to go to katiehubs.org to find out how to do that. But why are we back here? Why are we

doing this again? If the president would just focus on the issues that matter to Americans,

he wouldn't have to cheat at elections to win. It's interesting. I mean, Bill Barr,

his handpicked attorney general, Liz Cheney, who supported him until the insurrection on January

6th. I mean, all sorts of prominent, nationally recognizable Republicans have attested to the fact

that the election conspiracies are, you know, Bill Barr called them BS. What is it about Donald

Trump's lies that has a grip on his supporters? And how tight is that grip in Arizona?

Well, you know, I was up against an election denier in 2022. I beat her then. And I'm confident

I'll do it again this time around. But quite frankly, Arizona's are tired of these election

conspiracies being played out in our state. We saw the aftermath of 2020 drag out well into 2021

with the cyber ninjas and their fake audit, only to find the results were the same as they

actually were. And that wasn't the only review. There's been multiple reviews. And our elections

are secure. We've had vote by mail here for decades. It was ushered in by a bipartisan

legislature led by Republicans. 85% of our voters utilize it. And it's been incredibly successful

and secure. And I'm going to continue to defend that by vetoing legislation that aims to

curtail that and ensure that eligible voters in Arizona are able to participate in our elections.

Governor Katie Hobbs, thank you so much for your time today. Unfortunately for you,

I think this conversation will continue over the coming months. I appreciate you being here.

Thank you. Thank you. When we come back, we'll bring Michelle back into the conversation

and our friend and colleague Von Hill here will join us as well. I'm a former President

Barack Obama is doing today to help protect democracy. All that on the other side of a short break,

don't go anywhere.

Virginia, we are counting on you. Republicans want to steal enough seats and

Congress to raid the next election and wield unchecked power for two more years.

But you can stop them by voting yes by April 21st. Help put our elections back on a level playing

field and let voters decide not politicians. This is the responsible thing to do. Help us chart

a better path forward, Virginia. Vote yes by April 21st. Joining our conversation,

senior White House reporter Von Hill, Michelle is still here. I mean, Von Donald Trump is making

everything President Obama says they're so urgent. I mean, Donald Trump saying the midterm

strategy is to pass the survey. Donald Trump saying things about elections not needing to happen

is only bolstering the urgency of not just the Virginia effort, which is what President

Obama is talking about there, but California's Prop 50, which I think President Obama also

did a message in support of. Is there any cognizance that they're making the messaging against their

efforts easier to convey and convince the public? I think it's a good question to call here. And I

think that to each of those individuals who name point is that for five and a half years now,

we have seen Donald Trump and his cadre of allies effectively lay down different variables

of accusations, whether it be, you know, an Arizona giving sharpies to voters, knowing that they

are going to vote Republicans so that they wouldn't count when they were scanned to claims of dead

people voting, to claims of printing machines breaking for the purpose of hurting Republicans.

The claims that they have made are so endless here. Undoubtedly, we are going to see other

efforts here over the course of the next month's ahead. And I think that that is really where you

see, I think the concern, not just of Democrats, but also one time Republicans who have the integrity

of the democracy in mind, because they have seen other Republicans. And if you use Arizona's

example, people like Mark Burnovitch, who is the attorney general, who did this vast investigation

in 2022 into the election denialism claim. He issued a report in 2022, despite being an ally of

Donald Trump saying he couldn't prove that's throat fraud. And then you also see, you know,

the likes of people like Rusty Bowers and different Maricopa County Board of Supervisors were

Republicans who are no longer in office to stand in the way here. And so that pressure is going to

exist on a great number of Democrats, but a lot of those one time Republicans that stood in the way

in 2020, 2022, 2024, they're not around in 2026. Michelle, I might be wrong and I might be

projecting what I want to be true onto this, but President Obama seems like if we were having

just regular old Democrat versus Republican policy debates, he might not be as engaged, but I think

he both cut an ad for California's Prop 50 and maybe did a call with organizers. And where democracy

has been the question, he seems a little more willing to engage and lend his voice to the fight.

Well, he's done that in several elections, particularly where democracy is, you know, on the line,

and that's something that's important to him and he will continue to use his voice. I mean,

on the issue of Maricopa County, I just want to remind people of the numbers, Joe Biden carried

Maricopa County by 45,000 votes and carried the state of Arizona by 10,500 votes. So it's not,

you know, it's not necessarily close. And this is a six-year-old story about a loss that has been

examined and relitcated and the numbers have not moved. And so there are even people to Vans Point,

there are even people within the Republican Party that are advising Donald Trump that with

everything going on, the war, the economy, oil prices, the upcoming election, instead of the

election in 2020, that he probably should be focusing on once upon a time called NAP.

Well, that'd be the last word. Michelle Norris, thank you for spending the hour with me,

Bon Hillier. Thank you so much for your reporting from the White House today. It's great to see both

the view. When we come back after a very short break, we'll give you our last words.

My guest in this week's episode of The Best People is comedian, actor, documentary,

movie producer Tignotaro. She spoke to me about everything, about the movie she's made, but also

about her close friend, a claim poet, Andrea Gibson, who died last year from stage four ovarian

cancer. Tignot talked about her Oscar-nominated documentary, come see me in the good light.

It chronicles the final years of Gibson's life. Take a listen to what she told me about her friend,

Andrea. You know what it is? It's like everybody knows Andrea is a phenomenal poet, but to me,

Andrea is also just a phenomenal laughing and seeing how hard and deep Andrea is laughing

in that scene, like it is. And I love the lines on Andrea's face, and when they smile and laugh

and those lines get lifted up, I'm like, I can feel that Andrea is still here somehow.

And I think that scene just really, really captures who Andrea Gibson is, because I always say

Andrea, everything was so precious to Andrea, but also meanwhile, nothing was too precious.

And you could have the deepest conversation, and then you could laugh so inappropriate with this

person. And that's what that scene is to me, is the depth and the silliness that was Andrea Gibson.

Come see me in the good light is available now. Please watch it, the Oscar's. It's a beautiful movie,

and it was a beautiful conversation. I'd hear the rest of it. Just scan the QR code on your screen

or download wherever you get your podcasts. Let me know what you think on Instagram or Blue Sky.

One more break will be right back.