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So, Maryam, how's Texas?

So you'll be shocked to know I have bad news out of Texas.

What?

Things bigger in Texas, including the bad news.

Yeah.

No, it's pretty big.

It's pretty big, the bad news.

And there is one of their main exports right now.

What the economy has to run on something.

Bad humor, or not bad humor.

Bad news out of Texas.

I think bad news out of Texas is a mountain goat song.

All right.

Please continue.

Sorry.

So, the specific bad news out of Texas is that we have a verdict in the prairie land

case, and it's very bad.

This was the trial of nine people, eight of whom were present at a noise demo outside

of an ice facility in Texas, last 4th of July.

One of those defendants was convicted of firearm charges and attempted murder for allegedly

wounding a police officer during an exchange of gunfire.

Everyone else was convicted for essentially being in some way involved, despite clear evidence

that they had nothing to do with the shooting.

The federal government has labeled all of the defendants an antifa terror cell.

How are we pronouncing antifa these days?

When it comes from the federal government?

I don't know.

I like to say it so often in both ways by accident now, but it's like antifa, right?

But it's definitely antifa.

It's definitely antifa.

Antifa.

Yeah, but I understand that sometimes you just hear antifa so much that it blurs into

well, and when it's coming from the feds, it really does feel like antifa.

Antifa.

Yeah.

So I'm guessing most listeners will know why that claim is horseshit, but just to be

super clear, antifa is not a membership organization.

Membership organizations include ISIS, the KKK and the Girl Scouts of America.

Just as random examples, antifa, all equally good at cookies.

That's definitely not true.

That is definitely not true.

The KKK could never.

No.

None of the case stand for cookies.

Jesus, what am I talking about?

Antifa is an ethos of on-the-ground resistance to fascism, and is therefore more analogous

to environmentalism or feminism than to the Girl Scouts of America or the KKK.

It is a term that can be used to describe a person or group's goals, philosophy actions

or political legacy, but it's not an organization with a membership role or, and I cannot stress

this enough, fucking terror cells, someone considering themselves, antifa does not meaningfully

link them to any other person who might use that term.

I feel like I say that all the time, but I'm saying it now.

Apart from the one shooter, most of the defendants in this case were convicted of rioting and

providing material support for terrorism, as well as explosive charges related to fireworks

that were present on, again, the Fourth of July in Texas, where I think fireworks grow

on trees.

Texas hates the Fourth of July.

Texas isn't on patriotic, that's the news.

There is, to be clear, no allegation that any harm was done with the fireworks as far

as I'm aware.

This isn't like people use fireworks in a way that caused a fire or something.

This is just, you had explosives, anyway.

The sort of tweet-sized versions of this story, tweet-sized analyses of this story are, as

you might predict, focused on the wrong things.

People have been convicted of providing material support to terrorists, and part of the basis

of that conviction was having been wearing black block, and having been in signal chats with

someone who fired a gun at law enforcement, and one person was convicted of corruptly

concealing a document for moving zines around.

And the interpretation of this that many people seem to have run with is the courts have

said it's illegal to wear black block, use signal, or have zines, and that's just not accurate.

It's actually the case is a different, still very bad thing.

The acts of wearing black using signal and having zines themselves are not being criminalized,

but what has been criminalized in this case is any sign of association between the defendants

who are not alleged to have actually participated in any violence, and the person who exchanged

gunfire with law enforcement.

Now, there is some ambiguity around what exactly constitutes each of the charges that they

were convicted of, specifically the material support to terrorism.

My inference from what I've read and talking to some people is that that is probably mostly

about the attempted murder charge around the exchange of gunfire.

And then my inference is like that it's slightly more ambiguous.

I think there's three different things that could count as terrorism, and as is off the

top my head.

So I could be wrong about this, and one of them is the violence against law enforcement,

and one of them is use of fire or explosives in a crime, and I believe it came up in court

that's specifically like gunpowder is enough for that, and so the fireworks count for that.

But I know there's also the separate fireworks explosives charge, and then also the destruction

of property.

Yeah, which was like slashing tires of vehicles, like that.

One person said, hey, I did that, and I believe it's one of the cooperating witnesses.

And so it's very frustrating that there's this ambiguity about what constitutes domestic

material support for terrorism, because we don't know what exactly the precedent that

it is saying.

But we have ideas, and it's frustrating to me that they obviously care the most about

a copy and shot, but like we don't know.

My understanding is that we don't know if that is what the jury was instructed to use

as what counts for material support terrorism.

Right.

So we know very little about what the jury was told, and we're going to talk a little bit

more about that later.

But the main thing that I want to point out here is that what's being sort of taken away

from all this in a lot of the like shallower readings is, you know, that the court has

said, well, you were wearing black, and you're a member of this terror organization.

And that's all illegal.

And that's not exactly what has happened.

Rather, they have said, you were wearing all black, and that proves that you were in a

conspiracy with other people.

And that's different, but it's not better.

Yeah, exactly.

You're like, oh, they criminalized Zee, and so like, well, not really.

They just use Zee's as evidence to say that you're a terrorist.

It's different.

Right.

They didn't say it's not a crime.

It's just evidence of a crime.

Exactly.

They didn't say it.

There's a crime anywhere in the vicinity.

They, you know, it's illegal for you to be having this reading material.

They're just saying that because you had this reading material and you tried to move it

around, you were attempting to conceal a crime, different, but not better.

Yeah.

Because, or maybe a clarifying question, it's like the fear here that everyone has is,

and by everyone, I mean, every single person ever is that like, ideology is being criminalized.

And it's like, they're trying to do that by criminalizing a lot of things that specifically

relate to ideology.

Well, again, they're not so much criminalizing the things related to ideology as using indications

of ideology as evidence of connection to a crime.

Okay.

And I think that that's like, that's important because it is important to understand like what

is actually happening here.

And when you see people online sort of taking this and running with it and sort of going

like, oh, they're trying to outlaw Zines.

They're trying to outlaw Black Block because that's not actually what's happening.

There's nowhere really for that energy to go for that like outrage and indignation that

people have over that.

There's nowhere for it to go because like they are in fact not trying to outlaw those things.

They are making it much more dangerous to be somebody who engages with either of those

things.

And I will say though that with Black Block in particular, I think there is a read where

it is kind of criminalizing Black Block because not wearing all Black, they've not criminalized

that.

But if Black Block is a tactic that provides anonymity to its participants, that is it

could be said, it could be argued in court that you have helped someone escape.

And if that person committed a crime of just property destruction against a government

building, let's say, I think that this is a, I think with Black Block in specifically,

it kind of, it, it, it, it, it, it really opens the door to the criminalization of that

tactic.

Right.

And what's, what I think is really interesting and dangerous about this is that Black Block

is consciously used as a tactic to provide anonymity.

And you could be at, you know, you whoever could be at a event where people are blocked

up.

And you could be wearing Black Block and somebody could do something dangerous, but something

you agree with, like, say, getting in the face of a fascist live streamer, maybe something

not even illegal, right?

But you provide them that protection by being in Black Block.

Somebody in Black Block could also do something extremely illegal.

And maybe something you don't agree with.

But the courts could say, well, you were still providing them that protection.

Now you had no control over what they did, right?

This is not a case where like you sat down with somebody and said, okay, you go do XYZ.

And then I will help you hide.

This is a place where you provided, you helped to provide an environment of anonymity.

And then somebody else chose to do something with that anonymity that you are now being

blamed for.

And that's fucked.

I remember I spent a night in foreign attention and Rotterdam convinced I was going to spend

like the next 10 years in prison or whatever, because I was part of a group that someone

in that group of no idea who genuinely I just met these people, cut the fence at an immigrant

detention center.

And like, and so someone cut that fence.

So they mass arrested all of us.

And in the Netherlands, I remember this.

This is relevant.

I'm not just trying to drag up some cred.

This is like my only cred.

I've told the story way too many times.

But in the Netherlands, they had a criminal association law that basically said, if you're

part of a group and someone in the group does with a crime, you can go to jail for that.

And I remember thinking to myself, like, oh my God, I'm so glad the US doesn't have that.

What a terrible law.

But what's particularly interesting is that I was also coming from an American sense

of how long criminal punishments are.

And I know people who had spent years in prison for trespassing at the school of America's

right, you know, the place that trains assassins that they send to the third world.

And so I remember thinking, I'm going to spend the rest of my life in prison because

someone did this crime.

And they let me go the next day.

But, you know, and we're very glad they did.

And so it's I think a lot about this idea of, yeah, this criminal association, this

like, if you're part of a crowd and someone breaks the law in that crowd, you're suddenly

on the hook for it.

Is it absolute authoritarian overreach?

Yeah.

No, it's a it's a nightmare policy.

It is a nightmare approach to, I mean, and it just doesn't, it does not comport with

like anybody's actual understanding of individual action and action by the crowd and the responsibility,

like you are not responsible for the actions of another person who happens to have picked

the same outfit as you.

And it is, it is, you know, and considering that the, that the government would be very

hard pressed to you, you would not be able to convince them that say the entire NYPD should

be punished for police officer murdering somebody, they would be like, no, nobody should

be punished for police officer murdering somebody.

Our uniform, uh, indemnifies all of us from blame, your quasi uniform puts the blame

on all of you.

And that's the difference.

Fuck you.

Um, I believe that's the government's approach.

Well, actually, can we talk about law enforcement and, uh, and, and, and demity is that the word

and as it relates to prairie land?

I don't know if you have more about this thing.

I have more.

I want to say.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, so yeah, what we're, what we're seeing as I said is is this trend, which is something

that has been happening for a long time, um, in terms of like the, the government trying

to use any instances of something that they can, you know, call violence to, um, you

know, kind of discredit entire movements.

But actually seeking to link activists very, very tenimously to either violent crime

or property crime and seek to charge them as, as co conspirators, this is like, this

is something that we need to be worried about.

Um, it's something we should be on the lookout for, um, much more than any fear that like

the government is coming after a certain type of clothing or literature, um, because

this is how movements are actually suppressed.

And to be clear, uh, the outcome of this trial is not just awful, uh, doesn't just have

terrible implications, uh, for how the government will be strategizing around suppression of

anti-ice organizing, but there are all kinds of irregularities and weirdness around the

trial itself, um, including an earlier mistrial based on a defense attorney wearing a pretty

innocuous t-shirt witness testimony from before their jacket.

I don't think it was visible.

I think you had to be really paying attention.

And then which I think you had to be really angry that somebody was wearing a t-shirt

of a civil rights figure.

I read all the court notes about the two different jury pools.

And the first jury pool that the mist trial was on seemed a lot more sympathetic.

Well, I'm going to talk about the jury because things are weird with the jury.

Um, there was also witness testimony from the state's cooperating witnesses that absolutely

contradicted the prosecution's claims.

Oh, yeah.

Defense attorneys being prohibited from and punished for trying to file routine pre-trial

motions to ensure prosecutorial compliance with the constitution.

Attorneys being prevented from bordering potential jurors.

And there are even reports of noisy and possibly even physical conflict among the actual jury.

Amongst each other?

Yes.

Wow.

So the entire trial is a fucking mess.

The evidence just is not there.

And I think that this demonstrates just how eager the federal government is to find

ways to punish people for organizing, particularly when that organizing goes beyond things like,

you know, permitted rallies and marches.

And if you are doing this work, you should be aware of this case and what future prosecutions

could look like.

We're all taking on risk all the time.

There are many elements of this that are outside of our control.

But that said, I think that it could benefit all of us to look at this case and consider

where, with the benefit of hindsight, people might have been more able to protect themselves.

I'm absolutely not trying to victim blame here.

But I do think that a lesson we can take away from this might be

that when someone in a group chat with us starts talking about shooting guns at anyone,

we should be considering leaving that group chat immediately.

This is not just don't text anything you wouldn't want read back to in court,

but potentially don't stay in active communication with someone who is texting you things you don't

want read back in court.

Yeah.

We need to be really careful about what we talk about in text-based communication.

Adding in Minecraft does not help.

Please take the shit seriously when you consider how much of a risk you are taking on when you

talk shit or stay in a space with someone who is talking shit.

And understand, I am not passing judgment on the contents of what anybody said.

I am passing judgment on the idea of putting things in writing and staying in text communication

with somebody who is putting things in writing.

Like that is something we should really reconsider.

It exposes you not only to conspiracy charges, but to having yourself and your communications subpoenaed.

We're not talking about like, I'm not saying like don't believe things, don't tell edgy jokes,

but I am talking about what kind of things the government is able to claim that you were involved

in planning if you allow somebody to text you about things.

Yeah.

And I also need to bring up the fact that two of the defendants, Autumn Hill and Megan Morris

are trans women currently being held in men's prisons.

So they've been forcibly transitioned right now.

Please support the work that the defendant support team is doing, which you can find at PrairieLineDefendants.com.

We can put that link in the thing.

And, you know, just because I'm the hope guy, you could tell, right?

I'll also point out that sentencing and appeals have both not happened yet

and given the extent of the shit show that the trial was.

There is a solid basis for appeals, just given how goddamn messy everything was.

So, you know, there is some hope here.

We are not yet sure what people sentenced will be.

And as always, you know, writing to people while they are being held and

contributing financially to their defense, their support is useful and you should do it.

And also leave group chats if people start talking about doing crime in them.

So, one of the things I want to say about PrairieLineDefendants,

first, can I speedrun what I believe happened at PrairieLineDefendants for people who have

made it this far and are like, what the fuck are y'all talking about?

Sure.

Okay.

Totally, yeah.

I would be surprised if people were unfamiliar.

But I know, but one of the things that's very complicated is that the PrairieLineDefendants

for very understandable reasons didn't really put out a narrative about what happened pre-trial.

Totally.

So, for about a year, anarchists and folks were like, oh yeah, we support these people who arrested.

We don't actually know what happened.

Like maybe a cop got shot.

But then there was a period where people were like, oh, the wounds in the back of the neck,

which is actually just about, that's where the exit wound was.

But there wasn't really a coherent narrative put out.

Again, it was necessary as a defense strategy that they didn't know exactly what was going to happen.

They also didn't know whether they were going to be able to like,

for example, make a self-defense case.

There was a noise demonstration and the stuff that we were talking about about

group chats is that they were all part of these signal groups and a lot of sketchy things were

said in those signal groups, although specifically, people were like talked down.

And some of the cooperating witnesses who were at meetings were saying that this person Benjamin

Song, the shooter, brought up ideas of like, hey, we should try and free the iced detainees and

stuff. And people were like, nope, that's not what we're doing here.

And so they had a noise demo instead.

And then people were like, should we bring guns? And there seemed to be near consensus that we

shouldn't bring them physically on our person, the exception of this person, Benjamin Song.

He said, no, I'm going to bring mine anyway. I'm not going back to jail.

And Benjamin Song had also not just talked about freeing detainees and not just

talked about bringing a gun, but had specifically talked about laying down suppressive fire.

Which is one of the things that ended up being something that we all didn't want to hear

read back in court. No, absolutely not. And so there's a couple different narratives that I think

people have. And the state tried to prove this narrative that the whole thing was an ambush

and that they went there to kill cops. And I think they didn't prove that even to the jury.

And I think that because no one got attempted murder except Benjamin Song,

I think that the state, I think that the case, it was a noise demo. And that seemed to be generally

agreed upon. Mary, I'm going to say something. Oh, yeah. Just that the fact that they sort of tried

to construct this idea that the purpose of the noise demo was to lure cops into a situation where

they would be shot is just like laughably false. But like, so is everything else they're saying.

So it's kind of hard to be like, well, obviously they didn't prove that. But I think you're right

that other people would have the charges would have stuck on other people if they had. Yeah,

it felt like that had been proved. I don't think the jury was convinced that people

it's really hard to imagine someone as unintelligent as showing up with only one person armed

to go ambush a federal facility by standing out front and yelling at them. Like that is,

they tried to prove that Antifa is just morons. I don't know the polite way to say this,

you know, and that didn't work. And I want to see that defense like argument in court where

someone's just like, do I look like a fucking moron? Yeah. Look, I know I don't got higher education

degrees. But like, so one of the things, the fact that the state about a week into the trial,

the judge says you can't argue self-defense. And this is obviously very complicated because

there's a couple different narratives about what happened. And one of them that I see common on

the sort of among some people is this sort of like everyone went to a noise demo with this person

Benjamin Song sort of fucked it all up, right? And it's true that Benjamin Song was like kind of

saying the sketchiest stuff. And I don't know any of these people. I probably wouldn't want to be

going to noise demonstrations with someone who has this attitude. But there's this thing that I

think that is scary and complicated to talk about, which I think it is very likely that the fact

that no one died on July 4th last year at this demonstration was because Benjamin Song was

armed and shot a cop. Because it came up multiple times in the, as you know, as people talk to the

cop who was shot, the cop survived. The cop had drawn a gun. The near, neither side argues with

the material facts that there was a noise demonstration outside this prison. A cop got a call saying,

I don't know what's happening. They're attacking the blah, blah, blah. The cop shows up within a few

seconds. I think it's three seconds, draws a gun and points it at somebody. And we know exactly

that everyone could see the gun was drawn because had a weapon light on it, which is used for

positive identification of targets. And the positive identification of a target at this cop

is pointing the gun at was an unarmed person who's running away. Yeah. And so it can't be argued

self-defense because police in this country are allowed to shoot unarmed people who are running away.

And that's wrong. That is morally wrong that our country allows the police to gun down unarmed

people running away. If all of these people were changed to civilians and we told this story,

Benjamin Song is a hero. Benjamin Song is a good person with a gun in the right wing rhetoric

because they were armed and they saw someone about to murder or it would be murder in this

above context. It's not murder in this context because it's a police officer, but they saw someone

about to shoot an unarmed person in the back and they responded by shooting. I could convince 95%

of the people who live in my hall or who all vote Trump or don't vote. I could convince 95% of

them that Benjamin Song did nothing wrong even if that person was a cop. However, it will wreck your

life. Yeah. And that was a decision that Benjamin Song made was to wreck or end their own life

and save this other person's life because it even came up in court. And now a lot of the arguments

are like, well, the cop didn't shoot first. That's true. But the cop drew first and no one argues

otherwise. And people on cross examination, the cop was like and other people also under

cross. I think some FBI agents admitted this. The police are trained to draw only to shoot.

Now, that's not necessarily how they actually act. I have had guns pointed at me by cops

more times than I can count. I kind of disassociate while it's happening. So I straight up don't

remember every time, you know, but the police draw to shoot. And that is their training. And I

don't know to do with that because I basically look at it. And I'm like, the problem is that cops

are allowed to shoot on our people. That is the core problem here for my point of view.

Yeah. No. And when you brought up that they were not allowed to claim self-defense,

even if they had been allowed to make the argument of self-defense, making a self-defense argument

against a cop just never works. Every now and then. But it's usually like some white dude in this

picture. It's usually a white dude in his home, you know, something like that. But like,

the, you know, in this case, it was like sort of laid particularly bare because the judge said,

you cannot make that argument. But even if they had been allowed to make that argument,

those arguments have such a low success rate. Because like you said, the assumption is you're not

really allowed to defend yourself against cops. They're allowed to do whatever they want

up to and including murder you. And you're not really allowed to fight back. Even if they are, say,

pursuing an unlawful warrant or something like that, like even if they have no legal basis for

doing what they're doing, the courts are not kind to people who defend themselves. And yeah, I

I think that what you say about the sort of narrative around the night itself is, is really

interesting. And like it is very possibly true that the outcome if, if song doesn't take action

or is ends up being worse than the outcome that actually happened. And we don't know, we don't

know that, but like I think it's, it's definitely possible. Yeah. And I'm not saying people should

bring guns to protests like this. I would not make a recommendation on that. No, I would probably make

a recommendation against it. I try not to give recommendations about strategy, but I would probably

recommend against having done this. But yeah. But yeah, I mean, which is sort of why, like that's

part of the reason I'm like, I'm not really going to say, oh, here's what we learned about armed

conflict with law enforcement because I kind of don't feel like we did, but I do feel like we

learned something about signal chats. Yeah. And that's, you know, and the truth of it is more of us

are in signal chats than are in armed conflict with law enforcement. So I'm in an infinite number

of signal chats. So it's impossible for me to say what's happening in a given one. But yeah,

that's, that's me trying to like get a something useful from all this. The other thing that's

useful is like, yeah, there's a support crew doing great work. And we should help them. Yeah.

But that's, that's all the bad news from Texas. And it's not, it's one specific piece of bad news

from Texas. Who's got bad news from another place? Or good news. I just suspect it's mostly bad

news. And then what do you got? I have a mix of good news and bad news. So originally, I was going to

talk, uh, do a little bit more of a deep dive into. So how the, and this relates to, uh, the

prairie land stuff is like how the NSPM seven, which is the like, uh, directive from the Trump

administration to investigate entities that it considers to be part of this like domestic terrorism

blah, blah, blah about anti-fah, whatever that is. And the parts of it that specifically were

targeting investigating nonprofits as being linked to this anti-fah boogie man that the Trump

administration has been trying to, I like that you came up with a third way of pronouncing it. Yeah.

T-fah or in T-fah, a secret third thing. Well, I'm just trying to put it on record that I don't

know what this group is or how to pronounce the name. And so that that could be read back in

court in the future that in men does not know how to what this, how to pronounce the name of this.

And I'm, I'm riding with that. How do you think they'll pronounce it when they read it back to you

in court? When I, when they read back the transcript that says, and then in men said anti-fah and

or anti-antifa, and then I have to correct them and say, excuse me, I believe what I said was

anti-fah because I didn't understand how to pronounce it. Then you get, then you get a huge backlash

from, from fans of the Vietnamese noodle soup fun. Or like, why are you anti-argoodle soup?

Well, that's, that's fah and this is fah. Oh, I thought you, okay, are getting on track.

So that's that are being, not probably investigated. Non-profits that are being investigated.

So one thing that I do actually love is that the world like at large like

besides like the authoritarian entities that we're having to interact with more and more.

But like the larger world is very confused about the like anti-fah bogeyman approach. And in the

ways where like like large like organizations that I think are dumb are like this thing doesn't exist.

And it's crazy that the Trump administration has been trying to make the argument that it is

this organized group entity, etc. And part of the way that the Trump administration has been

regime administration regime. Let's call it a regime. It is a regime.

Um, has been targeting the left is in these incredibly broad and nebulous ways. And it's one

of the things that gives everything that they're doing much less credence to normal people.

Because they're like, what the fuck is he talking about? Because the Trump regime is bad at being

a regime. Yeah. Like fascism and authoritarianism have become increasingly less popular. And

they're doing every classic thing to be an authoritarian regime. And so people are like, I'm sorry,

we've seen this all before. And this is crazy and absurd. Like when you when you say that like

people who don't like they're watching their neighbors getting kidnapped are participating in

terrorism. Everyone's like, what the fuck is wrong with you? And then everything that they say

starts to mean less and less to normal people. And I think that that will be a very important thing

in the future. Um, they're also like bad at a lot of stuff. Um, like they're just and

they're sort of like strong man, you know, central figure. It's just the one. They haven't been

able to come up with a second guy. Um, and I think they thought it was going to be Charlie Kirk. And

the like, we are all Charlie Kirk thing lasted like four and a half seconds after he had the ground.

Like truly. And now now Candace Owens is accusing Erica Kirk of being like a alien or something.

Like it's great. Hell yeah. They, they really, they have not been able to come up like they,

they have one thing. And that is everyone feels like they got to do what Trump says. But they,

they're going to need a second thing at some point. Yeah, especially once a brain aneurism gets

in the way. Don't, um, yeah. Uh, there's a limit to how much hope we can talk about.

Totally. But how this relates to nonprofits currently is that they are being the IRS is being

kind of like the Trump's trying to use the IRS to like investigate nonprofits and like proposing

the idea that of like kind of criminal implicate more crime making criminal tax law a little bit

easier to enforce to target nonprofits that the regime believes is, um, air quotes support

terrorism. And a lot of nonprofits are really scrambling to figure out what that means because

no one knows what it means yet. And the ambiguity and the nebula larity, that's a word, um,

is what is terrifying people. Nebula, nebula velocity, nebula velocity grain. Yeah,

making that up. Don't take it seriously. Nebula larity, nebula velocity. Get at us in the comments.

Nebula, nebula, nebula, nebula. Yes. Yeah. Well, that just sounds silly. Um, and one of the thing,

and I think that this paranoia and confusion is part of is it's part, it's part of the tactic. Um,

because one thing that it does have that I've heard some people talk about is how like donors,

like people with money are now feeling afraid to give that money to groups that they think

are doing cool things because of like how they could be implicated later. And I don't believe

anything has come of this yet, but everyone's kind, I feel like everyone's kind of waiting to see

what happens with it in other annoying news. Um, so, and I think this is where like a sort of

misleading misleading media narratives, especially on social media can be tricky. Um, so there's

this big thing with proton mail recently where, um, a stop cop city account was linked to someone,

because of proton mail, uh, the narrative is that proton mail like colluded with the FBI. And

what actually happened is that so proton mail, which is a Swiss entity, um, complied with the Swiss

government, which was part, which was colluding with the FBI or whatever. I'm going to stick with

colluding. Um, yeah, we can accuse them of being shitty and criminal, even though they're doing

something that's perfectly legal. I'm actually okay with this. This sounds sarcastic, but it's not

totally. Yeah, I mean, legality is not the defining factor in whether something is a shitty thing to do.

Yeah. Uh, it's not shitty. It's not illegal to watch TikToks on full volume on the bus.

Uh, but it's not gonna do it. I don't like it. Yeah. And so proton mail is kind of statement

about the whole thing, which like proton mail has released user information in other cases before.

I believe I think a lot of those cases were related to like child pornography or something. Um,

and so this is like a markedly different instance of them releasing, uh, information. They comply

with every lawful order that asks them to give them information. They're a company. That's what they

do. Yeah. And it's, it's right there when you sign up, you know, totally. And what they're doing

is complying with a lawful order from the Swiss government. Yeah. Um, and then the Swiss government

is giving that information to the FBI, which I'm not saying I'm not defending proton mail here. You

should not trust proton mail to not give up information. Um, but I also think it's important

in the piece of information that was given up with that was able to identify this person was

payment data. Yeah, because they, they will give the information they have. And then the whole,

it's like this like zero trust thing and computer security where it's like, you should assume that

you can't trust any other computer. So you should only give it information that you would like to

see read back to you in court. I'm now mixing my metaphors. And yeah, like proton mail, I believe,

does not have access to the contents of your email. And so they can't give that up, but what they

can give up is payment information, which you don't even have to give traceable and you can like

mail them and envelope with cash, I think. I even, I don't know. No, that's true. You can, you can

actually pay them in cash by mail. Um, and you can also use the free version. Um, so, you know,

yeah. And they're all, there are many alternatives to proton mail that are perhaps maybe less user

friendly. I'm sure there is a user friendly version that you can also pay for, but where you can

pay in a more, there are alternatives to paying for reliable services in a more anonymous way.

But you can also like, you could pay with crypto with proton mail and like anyone, even the activist

organizations, like I'm not trying to call out rise up, who's been like the email provider to the

anarchist for, you know, 25 years or whatever, at least they comply with state orders all the time.

And they just intentionally don't really have any information. Yeah. And like, right, that's just

you're not going to find someone. I mean, I guess those places that just have even less information,

but you need to look at structurally what amount of information is necessary. Yeah. Oh, this

reminds me about something else I wanted to say about nonprofits, which is, um, so I think that

there's a lot of organizations that have like really like, like there is this weird golden period

where a lot of like organizations could become nonprofits and like do a lot of really cool and

awesome stuff through nonprofits. And I think we all need to analyze our reliance on uh institutions.

Yeah. That makes sense. And that institutions that are doing really awesome work, it's like,

I don't know, remember that like, like, uh, what I think it's the, I think it's, I feel like

I'm actually not going to name the organization because I don't actually know if they said this,

but there's this really rad organization that was made in some statement. Like we, like we were,

we weren't a nonprofit before we started doing this work and then we became a nonprofit.

And long after our nonprofit is like stripped away by the federal government, we will be doing

this work. Yeah, fuck yeah. Yeah. That's right. Actually, like, I'm like, fuck yeah, that's awesome.

So, yeah, it's like not inherently wrong to be a nonprofit. It just don't. I don't know,

when people are like, oh, you can't feed anyone anymore. It's illegal. You're like, well, fuck you,

I don't know. Yeah. Let us get arrested for it constantly. Let us all remember that slavery was

legal. Let us all remember that what the Nazis did was legal by their laws. Yeah. Not to stop you

from doing things. I just stopped you from doing things twice. Some kind of fun, fun news that I have

is so this was back in February, but I it came up on my radar recently was so petexeth who's like a

weird fucking clown who like I do it's who lifts fake weights. I will never get over the fact that

he lifts fake weights. Yes. I know this is not the focus of the discussion, but like the amount of

gender-affirming stuff those guys are doing all the time is like, how dare you? I know.

How dare you say weird? Yeah, so spacious. So, scouting America. I want us to do an episode

about scouts at some point, and one day we'll get around to having the bandwidth to do it,

but scouting America recently came into into national news because petexeth said that

quote the boy scouts lost their way and became gravely wounded, which I think we should all embrace

the blessed side wound. And like part of his like part of this quote and part of this like

ways in which they become gravely wounded is that they accepted girls at all, just girls blanket.

Like, girls are very dangerous, and they wound you with cooties.

Yeah, and there's this trend within scouting America, which like whatever scouting America has

these like military partnerships, so I'm not like scouting America is the greatest organization

that ever existed, but they have been on this like progression of like they started accepting,

they started they started accepting girls, and then they started accepting trans youth, and

oh, they accepted girls at trans youth without knowing it for years. Yeah,

I think that's got to be about a decade before I did. Yeah, and so it's like the and they they

change to their name to be more gender non-binary, and they're like, yeah, there's been backlash,

but it has been overall a great decision because more people are interested in doing this.

thing, and hexac claimed that hexac claimed that scouting America was going to adopt these

new policies based on like air quotes, biological sex, and like all of this stuff, and then scouting

America came out and was like, I'm sorry, we did not say that, and we are not doing that. Hell yeah,

and explicitly said that trans scouts are very much still welcome.

Aw, that rules. That makes little me with my my best friend in boy scouts was a girl.

The woman who ran the boy scout troop was a cis woman farmer who was probably was very

butch. I don't know what that says about her sexuality. Not anyway, whatever. I actually

mostly positive things about scouting in my own personal experience. There's nothing to say

about the organization itself, which has like a nightmarish legacy of fostering abuse, but

so does every large institution see the aforementioned not trusting institutions?

Absolutely. In a more grim note, there's this really terrifying bill in Idaho,

called Idaho Bill 822, and it passed the house recently. It's a bill related to social

transitioning, and which is a terrifying new concept, which it's like, so there's obviously a

lot of attack on like like medical transition for trans youth, and the right is unfortunately

very successfully attacking the ways in which trans youth can access medical transitioning.

And now they are attacking this concept of social transitioning.

So this bill would require schools, healthcare providers, and childcare providers to inform

parents within three days. If they are requested to participate in social transitioning,

which is a very broad concept, which includes asking to be called by a different name,

it's literally like observing things, like someone dressing differently.

Right. They're literally asking teachers, they're requiring teachers to like call the

parents if the kid gets to school and like changes their shirt. Or just in a different way.

Or not even changes shirt, but like is because they don't know what they came to school in,

but like shows up at all in like less like gender determining clothing in a girl's can't wear

pants. That's the future. That's the future. It's like I know I'm not going to talk anyone out

of being a trans folk, but like the way they're like gender is immutable and it's super important

and very, very strong and natural and boys are like this and girls are like this and you can't

change anything about it. Don't you let that girl cut her hair or she'll turn into a boy is like

Jesus Christ people. If it's so powerful, why do you need to legislate it all the time?

Yeah, I think I for a long time I was trying to figure out why I was at the center of this culture

war about a thing that I care so little about. Right. Like I just like kind of don't give a

shit about being trans except that they I have to because they want to kill us all. And it took

me a really long time to kind of understand why they picked this issue and it's this. It opens up

the idea of just control. Yeah. It's just a way to fucking be able to like stop anyone from doing

anything socially unacceptable by picking something that is like popular enough that people have

heard of it and unpopular enough that people are afraid we're going to steal their wives. That's

the real reason that individuals are transphobes is that they realize hear me out. Have I told you

the cis men are obsolete theory? I'm not actually anti cis. I'm completely and I'm not a misinterest

either. I'm opposed to both of those things. But people for a long time were like, well,

at least lesbians can't good anybody pregnant. I'm like, ah fuck. It's over for you. Now you

actually have to be a good enough person for someone to want to sleep with you. There's no biological

imperative anymore. This is a totally rational theory. Yeah, I think I think you're I think you're

on to something. And like I think you're right too that it is really about it's so much about

control and especially control of youth because if they had tried to organize around like parents

should be allowed to tell their kids what clothes to wear. People would be like, that seems weird,

man. I don't know if your kid is like getting like what? You know, but if they but if they

frame it around a moral panic, then suddenly the idea that parents should be able to control every

aspect of their kids lives just flows naturally from the idea that parents should be able to control

their kids gender. And I hate it. Yeah, it's dumb. And like I think there's this big thing happening

especially with teachers to where teachers are really being conscripted to be the opposite of

what teachers are supposed to be, I think, which is that like I think we all can remember like or

probably most of us maybe didn't have this experience of having like teachers that really like

challenged our views about like a dominant society or just like shit that our family would tell us

and like offering like something else to consider. And so it's like that institution as

or that role is like really being attacked right now in a lot of ways. Even with like there's a lot

of there's a ton of efforts right now to find ways to criminalize teachers like supporting

or like air quotes participating or helping or like convincing students to participate in like

social advocacy and activism especially around like ice protests. Yeah, that makes sense.

It's crazy. And like there's a lot of teacher unions that are starting to form again. And I'm

really stoked about that. This this stuff you're saying also goes hand in hand with school bookbans

and stuff like literally saying like no, no, we want to protect our kids from knowledge when they go

to school. Yeah, not you know, not like just God, I hope they find their way into the library and

find a book that they are actually interested in reading. But like no, we got to we got to protect

them from that possibility. Totally. Well, I had more stuff, but I'm going to pass it off to Margaret,

the one sentence thing on my other thing is the DOJ is failing at prosecuting people in Minneapolis

because it's becoming incredibly apparent that officers are just lying. What officers lying in

court? No way. All right. So to kind of go off of one of the things I want to talk about is

the expanding surveillance state. And the thing is is that Democrats are in on this too. And I

think that overall the old the both sides are the same blah, blah, blah rhetoric has started to

fall flat America because that used to be very true. And then the Republicans became a

literal fascist party instead of a slightly more right wing party. There is a push for more and

more control over everything we do. And I think it is one of the most existential problems that we

face in addition to fascism and climate change is the surveillance state. To use as an example,

there's increasing like Colorado as a law that's on the not on the books, but that's being pushed

for about this and the EU is fucking around with this idea. Age verification and computers

is a problem. And I am at the point where I have spent enough time watching people pretend like

laws are to protect kids when actually it's to criminalize everybody that I'm not even going to

give lip service to this. It's like I don't give a shit fuck age verification. I grew up fine seeing

all kinds of horrible shit on the internet. I don't want kids to see that shit. I kind of wish I

hadn't. And like there's great tools that parents can use that are already existent with which to

deal with it. But the idea parenting is like God forbid you might have to like talk to your

fucking kids about what they're experiencing in the world and be there for them. And so right now

basically there's this idea that our operating systems itself should require age verification.

Anyone who's like used I know that some social media platforms have started doing this where you

have to like not just hold up an ID but like hold it next to your face as you like turn your

face as the AI can like recognize you or whatever all this garbage don't do that. I rarely give

specific recommendations on this. But we need to stop this. We need to refuse to participate

in things that demeaness in this way. I'm absolutely going to turn into an old grouchy

libertarian way before my time. But like we cannot accept this. The ramifications of the level

of control. They the fact that they want your computer to know who you are and have been

verified about who you are. The knock on effects from this are disastrous. We are absolutely and

all of this sounds hyperbolic except it's just real. We are barreling towards 1984. We are barreling

towards you know I remember when I read that as a kid being like oh the TV watches you. Yeah your

TV fucking watches you. It also knows what you watch. It sells that data. It's the reason that

TVs are cheaper than monitors is because they sell the data. One of the people buying that data.

One of the headlines that I want to talk about. Cash Patel the director of the FBI admitted it

recently that he's just like yeah we have every intention of continuing to buy American citizens data

location data specifically because it was for a long time they would just go to cell phone

companies be like yeah where is that permanent tracker that this person carries around at all times

where she been. But the courts eventually were like you kind of need a warrant to get that information.

So they came up with as a great loophole the commercially available data about your location

that you have been letting including myself here letting advertisers take from you right because

you're like well I don't really care that Instagram knows that I'm into this thing and gives me

targeted advertisements because it doesn't really hurt me it it does now when we lived in a non-fascist

society it was different and it still wasn't good but it matters now so that's one of my big things

age verification is going to be required in operating system level in a lot of places increasingly

there are likely going to be workarounds about this that'll get increasingly complicated however

this needs to be pushed back on and I think that there's a chance that this is going to be an

overreach that will eventually get people to fight back. As always people come for like sex workers

first and so this is of course had a dramatic impact for years on the online sex industry all kinds

of you know content creators have been cut out of things cut out of payment processors and all of

these things anyway one government overreach thing that is possibly being not defeated but it's

not as bad as it was a second ago is Oregon was considered oh crap maybe is Washington oh fuck I

don't know my notes in front of me I only have a tiny bit of my notes in front of me one of them

northwest liberal states wants to ban 3d printing guns and the way that they want to do that is they

were a quantum require all three they wanted to require all 3d printers to have snitch wear in them

that says this is what someone is printing and therefore can like scan objects and use AI to

determine whether or not it's a gun or a gun shaped object and not let you print it and or report

you to the authorities that's bad that is absolutely bad and as always it's not just about your

right to 3d print guns which isn't a very good way to get guns but the ability for them to start

saying we need to put more and more software like computers used to make us more free and now they

make us less free I'm really worked up about this you all probably picked up on it then the other

things that I have as like headlines fortune.com is predicting a major global economic collapse this

is not necessarily like this is not like a mad max collapse that they're calling calling for

expecting to happen they think it's going to be like 1929 to 1945 levels which obviously didn't

go great also we might have ocean weather models are predicting the first year with a blue ocean

event which sounds cool right blue ocean that's nice when the ocean is supposed to be blue right yeah

yeah blue ocean event means no Arctic ice oh like no new Arctic ice so like I I got real

confused while reading about this it seems to be like they're talking about possibly like huge

swaths of the Arctic will be free of ice in the summer so it's not new there is new winter ice

coming okay but the summer is going to melt so much that there will be no ice in places they're

supposed to be ice and it's not a literal entirely free a blue ocean event is legally distinct from

no Arctic ice even it gets called no Arctic ice but no it's it's it's it's worse than just know

when you're Arctic ice it's like like y'all this is the fucking end times yeah humanity might survive

so people will be looking back and be like oh Mara Kilger is fucking yeah in the sky is falling

and you're like no like the problem is is that fascism was always the mini boss and we're being

beat by it because the real boss is climate change and in order to beat climate change we need to

have a functioning global society that allows us as a as a people of earth to confront and address

the biggest existential issue ever faced by humanity which is climate change and and it's if

fucking sucks and I and then the final on environmental shit and it's like barely even gets noticed

and I understand why there's war and all this shit that over that looks bigger to people on

and there's more in people's radars but Trump has put out an executive order demanding that domestic

timber production reach 1960s levels which is the peak of domestic timber production when you're

talking about I think is a billion board fee per year or something like that and so they want to

start with the BLM the the Bureau of Land Management which is one of the two big public land

things in the United States they want to put 2.5 million acres in seven counties 17 counties in

Oregon up on the chopping block this includes an awful lot of old growth forests that's been

protected for a long time that people have bled and died to protect if you've never been to

all growth forests you need to and you honestly should do it soon the same as you should go look

at glaciers because or fish existing in the ocean or sometimes I think about how many bugs used to

be in the world and we don't even notice that all the fucking bugs are gone like even just thinking

back 20 years ago the number of bugs you murder by driving down the highway that you don't notice

that happening anymore because they're fucking gone because we've fucking killed them and we've

killed them through our own inaction or through our own action so 2.5 million acres including an awful

lot of old growth including a place called Valley of the Giants and 51 acres of 400 to 500 year old

trees are possibly going to get cut the one weird silver lining modern sawmills aren't even equipped

to deal with old growth no one does it and the other thing that's worth knowing about something

like the timber sale program because you're like okay well we need to rely less on domestic imports

and hey you use wood I live in I'm literally disaying this from a wood framed house right now right

public land and cutting of old growth is not only not necessary to meet our timber needs it isn't

it is too our economic detriment public land timber sale programs lose the American taxpayer

money and I kind of hate framing things in that way and I did when I was a forest defender sitting

in trees but like it's worth understanding the amount of money that it takes to log public land

is more than the fucking money it brings in and the reason it happens is because of the timber lobby

it because they there's a it's just a machine and we're caught up in this machine and it's

killing us and we're all waiting for someone else to fix it and if you believe in the system

you're waiting for the system to fix it and if you don't you realize that if you want to go fast

go alone if you want to go far go all together and we just don't know how and sorry and oh and

my final note on the weird over over exaggeration of Democrats are also coming for your rights

okay one I'm gonna really quickly rant about fucking gun stuff and guns are I still wish I could

uninvent guns I'm not trying to say that it is meaningless that people look at the problem of

violence in this country and think we should do something about this as soon as Democrats get

political capital the big primary issue they seem to be doing is not in trying to be a woman's

right to choose not I don't know God forbid protecting the environment it's like banning the most

popular rifle in America only in blue states so the Democrats are actively trying to disarm

all Democrats and are incapable of disarming Republicans and so what the Democrats are using

their political capital for right now is making themselves weaker physically weaker and physically

less capable of dealing with the conflict that it is not a wingnut thing to think that a civil war

might happen in this country anymore five years ago people are like whoa that's crazy it's regular

New York Times front cover shit that people are aware that that might happen also in New Jersey

they're trying to require that all ebikes and possibly even all bicycles are registered as motorcycles

and so you have to ensure and register and whatever and it's not even possible to

cook comply with the law at the moment Democrats love passing laws about registering shit

that there isn't even a system by which they could do it there's not a system by which people can

do this shit people just want health care I know yeah they just want fucking health care I know

I almost wish I want I almost wish I believed in voting because I was like you know what if we

start a program that is like people get health care people can afford where they live and you know

what if you live in the country you can keep your fucking gun in the country you can even probably

make both sides happy by saying you can't have a gun in the city and you can have it as soon as you

leave the city everyone's fucking happy yeah but Pete Hagseth needs needs 20 million dollars a month

through lobster and steak oh my god oh the pet you the Pentagon you mean the place that is getting

all the journalists kicked out I there's so many things I yeah well hey everyone there's a

thing about war two and well and there's also this thing happening with war two and we didn't

get to talk about it too much you know we can only we can only cover so many horsemen per episode

yeah and it's it's it's been in the news it matters and it's worth reading about but

any any final thoughts before we go to outros oh we were gonna try and end on a hopeful note

I am crying but uh fuck what has given me hope every fascist system that has ever existed has fallen

that gives me some hope also more people are fucking armed the left is more armed progressives are more

armed uh and also people are trying to do it smarter and better and with understanding that if you

don't run out by a gun to be clear learning how to use a gun run out and learn how to use a gun

to very different thing a lot of people should not keep guns in their house if you do choose to

keep a gun in your house it needs to be locked at all times and only in control only controllable by

the people by whom it should be controlled that is not the solution to your problems at the same time

it's so much harder to genocide armed people that's my hope that's my fucking

dead go oh the fucking whales came back oh yeah back for a while but there's been like new reporting

about the fact that like all that massive conservation effort the one that they're trying to

undo all right now yeah yeah it was working it was fucking working yeah yeah something I I think

about a lot is is Star Trek um and specifically specifically the fact that in in the best Star Trek

movie it was such a assumption at the time the movie was being made that like whales are headed

for extinction that it made sense for the plot of the movie to hinge around having to go back to

now to get whales to save the world and like we just have whales now like we

does that mean it worked huh does that mean it worked did they come back a they had to they had to

talk to an alien thing that was trying to have you not seen this either like eight times but what

I'm trying to say is that it's they succeeded they save the whales we just didn't notice we're

living in the timeline where they save the whales we're living in the post the post uh Kirk

whales saving timeline no but like actually my my hopeful thing is how well habitat restoration and

like oh and rewilding works like every time I see a story where it's like yeah we just uh we

just took down this dam and now what do you know all the the salmon are back and every everything's

great like I'm oversimplifying but like every time land is restored and habitats are restored

and species come back from the brink that's cool and good um and I I do derive a lot of hope

from that because there is I think this the the big the the thing that is such an overwhelming

source of fear in in the climate apocalypse that we're looking at is like this could all just

everything good could be gone and it's helpful to realize that that restoration is also something

that we are capable of um humans are not just capable of destruction they are also capable of

stopping destruction and sometimes even restoring what has been destroyed to to a certain extent

and like I'm not saying and so it's all okay or everything will be like it was or just you know

just do it yeah and the fact that we are capable of doing it means we we gotta yeah um so that's

that's something that I'm uh clinging to white knuckled um you know right right this very moment

and uh and it's spring so it's always nice to survive February and now most of March and uh

spring happens it happens every time actually no matter how much I stop believing in it

in like the depths of February so yeah there you go that's it that's hope I don't know look here's

a dog um what's bringing me hope is that um the and this is a weird is I feel like everyone's

going to be like that's what's hopeful to you and then and I'm going to be like this you know

sort of I don't know um the illusion that for most normal ass people like like we are no longer

the doom priors that everyone is looking yeah fucking yeah um and it is bringing me a little bit of

hope that people that more and more just regular ass people like which I'm whatever I'm a regular

ass person but I'm also the person on the corner shouting the end is not you know um is that more

people are like kind of the illusion that we can like quietly just ignore stuff is like really

being shattered and people are realizing that they can't that we can't just ignore things we can't

just sit on the sidelines um and more and more I see people like when they're faced with those

situations being like okay let's fucking go yeah no it's true and that's what I mean what's

giving me hope is Minneapolis and I know Minneapolis is not in the same situation it was two months

ago when people were paying more attention to it but that thing about them having a hard time

prosecuting people and like just that people can come together and I mean like frankly in Minneapolis

they like look they all broke a fuck ton of laws like everyone in Minneapolis just broke a

fuck ton of federal laws you know like they're like what do you mean people are trying to get

they're trying to charge people with interfering with an officer just because I was interfering

with officers you know and like and that rules that people at the end of the day

can can can look to themselves and say I'm going to do what's right uh and not what's safe

yeah yeah yeah I clearly only bent it I tried to break it but it's still there I want to

see that argument I want to see that argument in court someone being like um I clearly did not

break the law because it's still there so um this is uh no go the other way be like oh I broke

the law sick law's done you're gonna have to make it again if you want it again just by just

me just just start all of our like fantasy you're on the stand and things that you can say to

to a court and they have to listen to you um

uh well okay well we should wrap up all right it's been a pleasure

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the specific person Aiden and Yuki the dog Jenny and Phoebe the cats Jason Sholva Blink Cat Farrell

in West Virginia the Massachusetts chapter of the Socialist Rifle Association the Canadian Socialist

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