Throwback Thursday: The Lipstick Killer, William Heirens Pt. 1

0:00Hi listeners, it's Vanessa. Are you the type to fall down an internet rabbit hole and not come up for hours? You'll love crimes of Reddit. A new crime house original with Sabrina, Diana, Roge, and Alexis Linklenter. Every week, one host brings real true crime stories from Reddit, while the other reacts completely blind. No prep, no spoilers, then they swab. It's the feeling of sending your group chat a Reddit 2am that starts with, you have to see this. Sabrina and Alexis are in the chat with you. Follow Crimes of Reddit on Apple podcasts and Spotify, or subscribe at Crimes of Reddit pod on YouTube. This is Crimes House. Chicago, 1946. A string of brutal murders has the city gripped by fear. The killer leaves a taunting message, crawled in lipstick at one of the crime scenes, and

1:01the suspect, when he's finally caught, is just 17 years old. But the story of how William Hirons became the lipstick killer starts long before that arrest. Welcome to Crimes House 24-7. I'm Vanessa Richardson. Twice a day every day we bring you the best, most timely and gripping cases from across the entire Crimes House network, all in one place, right here. And every Thursday is throwback Thursdays, where we reopen a chilling case from before the age of DNA, a crime that's haunted us for generations. Today, we're opening the file on William Hirons, the lipstick killer. And this case never really closed. Hirons died in prison in 2012, still maintaining his innocence, and the controversies around his coerced confession and the disputed fingerprint evidence have fueled ongoing debate among legal scholars and true crime researchers, with advocates continuing to argue his conviction

2:02deserves fresh scrutiny. Our community exists because of listeners like you. Want even more? Join Crimes House Plus for every episode of Crimes House 24-7, Add Free. Not only that, but you'll get complete access to an exclusive limited series every month, and early Add Free access to all Crimes House shows and bonus episodes. Go to Crimes House Plus dot com or on Apple Podcasts, tap Try Free at the top of the Crimes House 24-7 page. Now, Dr. Tristan Engles joins me to get inside the mind of the boy who would become one of Chicago's most infamous killers. William George Hirons, who also went by Bill, was born on the north side of Chicago on November 15th, 1928. He was the first child of working-class Roman Catholics, George and Margaret Hirons. When Bill was born, the Hirons family was doing relatively well.

3:05George owned a floral shop near their home, and Margaret was a homemaker. But less than a year later, on October 24th, 1929, everything changed when the stock market crashed, kicking off the Great Depression. George's flower shop went out of business, and in 1931, he and Margaret had a second son, which meant another mouth to feed. Despite this extremely trying situation, George and Margaret found ways to get by. George got a job doing security for a steel mill, and Margaret worked part-time at a local bakery. Together, George and Margaret made enough money to keep food on the table, but it also meant that little Bill and his brother, Jair, spent most of their time with a neighborhood babysitter. So let's discuss the impact this might have had on Bill's early developmental years. Starting with birth order, the birth order theory was founded by Alfred Adler, which suggests that parents treat children differently based on their order of birth, which can ultimately

4:06affect their personalities long-term. Bill was the first born child, which means he was the only child for a brief period of time. The only children get undivided attention and nurturance. They tend to grow up to be very reliable, conscientious, but also spoiled and possibly selfish since they hadn't required to share things with siblings. Around age three, Bill then became the eldest child. That attention gets taken away in more responsibility or pressure is theorized to be placed on the eldest child. According to Adler, the eldest child is likely to become neurotic and perfectionistic as a result. But being said, the theory does come under scrutiny because there are so many confounding variables in each family that can impact a child's development, like a change in socioeconomic status, for example, in addition to other family dynamics, which brings me to the next part of this that could be significant. The fact that possibly both him and his brother lost the undivided attention of their parents or at the very least their mother when she returned to work, and they were in the care

5:08of a babysitter. To be clear, there's nothing wrong with using child care. It's something that millions of American families rely on, whether it's through extended family or paid child care arrangements. But what could impact a child's development are the experiences they have in the care of babysitters. Are they nurturing, attentive? Do they set appropriate limits and boundaries? And then what kind of parenting is done when they return home? These are the things that could ultimately impact a child long-term. Well in Bill's case, he seemed to thrive in his parents absence. He spent a lot of his time tinkering with old radios or broken appliances. He got so good at mechanical repairs he was known around the neighborhood as a bit of a whiz kid. When his parents were home, however, Bill struggled. He never called them abusive. In fact, he often talked about how much he appreciated them. But they frequently fought amongst themselves, usually about money. Seems like he was dismissive of or rationalizing possible childhood maltreatment, which is

6:10a defense mechanism, and would be something he relied on to cope with the emotional distress of those experiences, if that's what's occurring. Well he couldn't stand the fights. His little brother, Jair, seemed to be able to tune them out. But they upset Bill so much he developed severe headaches, and he started looking for ways to find relief. The suggests that Bill didn't have any healthy outlets or a way to communicate how this experience affected him. Bill isn't overly surprising at his age, but it also makes me wonder if expressing his emotions was something that was discouraged in his home. Well, at first he found relief from the fights by running away for brief periods of time. At only seven or eight years old, Bill would wander the streets of Chicago for hours, just to clear his head. But before long he found another form of escape, one that he instinctively knew he had to keep secret. When Bill was about nine years old, he developed a fetish for women's underwear. He didn't really know how to manage those feelings.

7:11Sexuality was a taboo subject in his household, and his mother told him sex was dirty, and yet Bill couldn't help himself. A parapheralia disorder is recognized by the American Psychiatric Association as a condition in which someone experiences an atypical or abnormal sexual interest that causes intense distress to the individual or to others. There are eight identified parapheralia categories in the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders. And one of them is fetishistic disorder. That occurs when there is an intense sexual attraction to an inanimate object or body part, but to qualify as a disorder, the person also experiences extreme distress and impairment in functioning. For example, their social, legal, or professional lives are impaired, including their sexual functioning. Bill's need to hide this is an indication that this causes him feelings of shame and distress. A lot of individuals with this disorder struggle with sexual arousal without the fetish object

8:15or objects. It's their means of sexual gratification. It's almost exclusively found in males, and underwear is in fact a common fetish object. Is there usually a trigger for developing fetishes or do they develop at random in people? That's a really good question. So this disorder usually develops during puberty, but it can develop earlier, and like in the case of Bill, there are a lot of theories regarding how fetishes have developed. One working theory is that they develop from early childhood experiences where the fetish object was associated with a sexual arousal or experience of some kind, similar to conditioning. Others theorize that the conditioning that occurs during puberty and masturbation causes the condition. In my professional experience, I have found there has been typically a condition response to the fetish object as a result of early sexual exposure at a young age. The way it also has seen individuals who have been conditioned to use sexual objects or engage

9:18in sexual behaviors as a coping mechanism as well. Bill may not have felt comfortable talking about his fetish, but he didn't exactly try to suppress it either. Instead he looked for ways to indulge in secret. So soon after these feelings began, Bill started sneaking into the laundry rooms of apartment buildings. He would steal the women's underwear he found and stash it around his home, making sure his parents never found it. In the process, he discovered a new source of relief, burglary itself. The act of breaking into those laundry rooms relieved the tension in his head better than running away ever had. Bill began to crave that sense of release, and he soon found an effective way to get it. When Bill was 12 years old, he got a job as a delivery boy for a local pharmacy. He discovered he could use his drop-offs as an opportunity to learn the layout of people's homes. Once he had a good sense of the place, he would return and break in, which thrilled him

10:19in more ways than one. Bill began experiencing sexual stimulation from the act of breaking and entering. He got especially aroused by climbing through windows. He didn't understand exactly why he was experiencing these feelings. All he knew was that every burglary left him wanting more. So, what you're describing, Vanessa, is sexual burglary. Sexual burglary can come with a number of behaviors like voyeurism, sexual violence, sexual murder, and of course fetishism. In Bill's case, at least so far, he's engaging in what we call non-contact overt sexual burglary, because he is, as of now, not having any direct contact with the residents, but he is taking a fetish object from the home. Burglary's are often driven by impulse, opportunity, like Bill demonstrated, by getting the job as a delivery boy, so he can do like reconnaissance, so to speak, which is often the case with burglaries because it involves a lot of rational thinking, rational choice, and planning, but it also involves a lack of empathy.

11:21Sexual burglary, however, can be a precursor for more violent sexual crimes, crimes of which are driven by a need for power and control. From what you described so far about Bill's childhood, there is inter-parental conflict, which I'm curious to know whether or not had turned violent between his parents, especially sexually violent, because that would tell a lot for us. He also has poor supervision, and it seems likely that not only is Bill unable to express his feelings, but their religion may prohibit the discussion of sexual curiosity, sexual health, and sex is viewed as dirty, as Bill's mother described it. And sexual shame can be very detrimental on a developing child. It's a shame that the children are at a greater risk for deviant behavior in life, because if you think about it, instead of normalizing their development and their curiosity, if shame is being used, your teaching a child that normal biological drives or responses are inherently bad. And the reason why this puts children at a greater risk for deviant behavior is because

12:23of their belief that they need to hide what is otherwise natural, and perhaps this idea that sex is dirty or negative for Bill, since he was raised to believe it's, quote, bad anyway. Why might someone find the act of burglary arousing? What did William get out of breaking an entering that he didn't get anywhere else? So, earlier I discussed parapheralia disorders, and I talked about how there's a commonly identified in research subtypes in the DSM, but they theorize that hundreds actually exist. One of which is kleptophilia, which is a sexual arousal obtained through theft or breaking an entering. And at the root, these disorders are conditioned early. If anyone remembers Pavlov's dogs, Pavlov discovered that he can create a conditioned involuntary response to a stimulus. In his methods, he's introducing meat powder to dogs. After a period of time, once the dogs saw the tin of meat powder, they started to salivate, meaning their body was conditioned to respond involuntarily to the site of the tin, because

13:28they knew it meant they were going to be fed. So, Bill likely has a conditioned response to women's underwear in some way. Then Pavlov found higher order conditioning, in which he would make a tone, and then he would show the meat powder tin. And eventually, the dogs, they started salivating when they heard the tone, and before they even saw the can, meaning they're now conditioned to the tone. So in the case of Bill, he somehow had a conditioned arousal to women's underwear, then began to burglarize for women's underwear. But now has a conditioned arousal to the act of burglary itself. Well, Bill couldn't get enough of the feeling he got from these break ins. So over the next several months, the 12-year-old committed at least nine burglaries. He also diversified the items he stole. He moved on from women's underwear to ladies' furs, men's suits, tools, radios, and firearms. Bill was fascinated by guns. He loved taking the weapons apart and putting them back together.

14:32He also liked just carrying them, which is exactly what he was doing when the 13-year-old broke into a building in June of 1942. This time he got caught, and when police discovered Bill had a gun on him, they arrested him. Bill went on to search the hyren's home and discovered Bill's stash of stolen items, which he'd hidden in an empty shed on a nearby rooftop. He was charged as a juvenile and sent to a year in reform school. At first, the punishment appeared to help. Bill seemed to be sorry for what he'd done, so much so that he cried himself to sleep sometimes. There's already sexual shaming occurring in the home likely due to religious reasons associated with the family's beliefs, but now his family knows about his fetishes and his sexual interests. So this reaction appears to be shamedriven now that his secret is out. As I mentioned earlier, to be diagnosed with a parapheria disorder, the individual must have an extreme sense of shame or distress associated with the acts, in addition to impairment

15:35in their lives like legal, professional, social, and this would be an example of that. How common is it for people in situations like this to act regretful as a way to escape further punishment or get out early? That's actually very common. I saw this a lot in juvenile and adult detention centers when I worked in them. It's a form of manipulation or impression management, and it's used quite often for different reasons. With juveniles, it was often used to guard or sympathy and nurturance. They're trying to appease to staff's possible biases surrounding their age and their projected innocence. But also, it's because they were usually really quite scared being detained, especially those who are the same age as bills. It's a very scary place to be. If Bill actually was sorry, his remorse didn't last long. When he returned to Chicago in June of 1943, at age 14, he went right back to his old ways. Just two months after arriving home, he was arrested for burglary again.

16:37This time, Bill was sentenced to two additional years in reform school. He was sent to St. Beads Academy, a school run by monks about a hundred miles away from home. Just like his last stint at reform school, it seemed to help. By all accounts, Bill excelled at St. Beads. He got along well with other students, got good grades, and even impressed his instructors with his maturity. Then came June of 1944. Bill now 15 returned home on a summer break. And just like before, he went back to breaking and entering. But was this behavior triggered by the pressures of being back at home? Or was it something deeper like sociopathy? Let's talk about recidivism. Or the act of someone reoffending. When it comes to minors, the risk of reoffending will increase when there is early onset of deviants, mental illness or substance abuse, inconsistent parenting or trauma in the home, academic problems, pure influence, and overall environmental instability.

17:40The fact that Bill was excelling while detained indicates that there was likely a lack of structure or stability in the home. And unless that changes, returning to the same environment will just increase his risk for future behavior. Reform schools can be effective because they provide that structure, but they can also be really traumatizing depending on how the establishment is run and who is in charge. Well, regardless of what drove Bill's behavior, he certainly displayed some of the symptoms associated with being a sociopath, a habit of lying, disregard for the law, and a flicker of grandiosity that grew into a flame. Because in 1945, Bill was admitted to the University of Chicago at only 16 years old. At the time, the University was running a special enrollment program. During World War II, millions of young men and women who would normally be in college had joined the military or entered the workforce. In order to bring in more students, the University of Chicago opened its doors to exceptional

18:43high school sophomores and above. As an average student with three years of reform school and a criminal record, Bill was hardly the model candidate, but he applied to the program anyway, and thanks in part to a glowing letter of recommendation from the principal of St. Beads, he was accepted. Bill was ecstatic. He wrote in his journal, quote, �This is my first chance at showing how good I am to society, and I intended to show even better signs, tonight I feel as if the world were mine. That feeling wouldn't last though. Sadly, the summer before Bill left for college, the headaches he got from his parents' arguments came roaring back, as did his criminal urges, and this time his need for relief was more powerful than ever.� 4 Universities 4 deaths, and 4 times the truth got buried under the

19:48institution that was supposed to protect it. I'm Vanessa Richardson, and this is Campus Crimes, a four-part bonus series on Crime House 24-7. It starts in 1905 when Stanford's own co-founder is fatally poisoned, and the school quietly recast it as natural causes. A biology professor denied tenure opens fire in a faculty meeting. A graduate student stabbed to death in a crowded library and a killer who simply vanishes. And a college basketball player murdered by his own teammate, while his coach schemes to smear the victim to save himself. Every case asks the same question, �What happens when an institution has more to protect than the truth.� Listen every Sunday in August on the Crime House 24-7 feed, or join Crime House Plus to get all four episodes right now, ad-free. Join on Apple Podcasts or at CrimeHousePlus.com.

20:56On the morning of June 5, 1945, Chicago was unseasonably cold with a low of 36 degrees. Early that morning, 16-year-old Bill Hirons had a terrible headache, so he bundled up and headed out to relieve the pain of being at home, by breaking into an apartment building. As he later told a psychiatrist, quote, �It seemed as though I was in a dream. I did not have any feeling. It was like walking through darkness and pushing a mist aside.� It was in this muddled state of mind that Bill reached his target. He climbed a fire escape to the sixth floor and slipped into an apartment rented by a woman named Josephine Ross. Josephine was a twice-devourced widow and mother of two in her early 40s. She lived in the apartment with her two adult daughters. It's not clear why Bill chose this particular apartment. Maybe he happened to see an open window, or maybe he'd been here before, through his job as a pharmacy delivery boy.

21:57Bill broke into the place, expecting it to be empty. But it wasn't. Josephine had seen her daughters off to work, then gone back to bed. And when Bill climbed into her bedroom window, she was right there. Before he had time to react, she screamed, �Bill panicked. But instead of running away from Josephine, he decided to silence her.� When Josephine's daughter returned home that afternoon, she found her mother's ravaged body. Josephine was naked with a dress and stockings tied around her head. Her throat was cut, and she had multiple stab wounds. The apartment had been ransacked, and there were signs that the killer had masturbated multiple times, either during or after the murder. Most often, when a violent crime occurs during the commission of a burglary, it's because of an unexpected occupant. And in the case of sexual burglaries, non-contact ones, as I mentioned before, they're often

22:59seen as a precursor for more violent crimes just like this. Based on his pattern so far, I don't know that this was his initial intention, but I think he needed to silence her like you discussed, and once he did, he rationalized doing far much more. And this might have led him to discover another sexual gratification, one of violence, and how he left the crime scene. And whatever Bill's reasons for killing Josephine Ross were, nobody was able to connect him to the murder. There wasn't anything in the way of forensic evidence, and DNA testing was a long way away from being invented and implemented. Over the next several months, investigators proposed countless theories about who had killed Josephine and why, but they could all agree that this murder wasn't the accident-all-out outcome of a routine burglary. This was an act of brutal violence committed by someone who deeply enjoyed it.

23:59And since nobody suspected that Bill Hirons was that person, he was able to go about his business as usual. But in September of 1945, three months after the murder, two major events changed Bill's life, his freshman year of college, and the end of World War II. By now, the war had been raging throughout Bill's adolescence, and despite having grown up in America, he seemed to have developed a fascination with the other side. Among many items Bill stole that year, he'd taken a neighbor's secret collection of Nazi memorabilia. And his interest in the Third Reich didn't end there. Bill also chose to study German, his first year at the University of Chicago, and odd choice for a 16-year-old boy who had failed classes in his native language of English. In addition, he started reading Nietzsche, a philosopher whose work Adolf Hitler famously admired. You know, it's not surprising or concerning necessarily that young American boys at

25:00that time would be interested in World War II since it was something that was likely talked about daily, and many of them likely had family members who were off-fighting in the war. Modern adolescence are easily influenced by their peers and family, especially when it comes to their beliefs. So it does make me wonder what the beliefs were of his immediate circle, especially when his neighbors had Nazi memorabilia that was secretive. That he not only knew about, but he actually went and stole. It is possible that it was being glorified around him in some way, making him want to do the same, but equally and maybe more likely, he identified with the power of it. When you couple that with Nietzsche and what we know about his works, he appears to be searching for validation and meaning for himself, maybe even belonging one that he feels would rationalize his behaviors and his thoughts, and perhaps one that allows him to disavow his religious beliefs, the ones that he was raised with. We don't know exactly why Bill was so drawn to Nazi Germany, but he clearly developed

26:05an interest in extreme violence after murdering Josephine Ross. And he started studying another subject as well, one that may have taken his crimes to a whole new level. During his first year at the University of Chicago, Bill acquired a book by German philosopher Richard von Kraft Ebing called Psychopathia Sexualis. Ruth notable that this is also a German philosopher? In 1886, the book explores a broad range of sexual attractions to so-called non-traditional subjects. This includes practices that are considered healthy today, such as homosexuality and consensual fetish play. However, the book also details violent non-consensual acts, such as lust murder, violation of corpses, and the kidnapping and dismemberment of children. It's possible that Bill initially started reading the book in order to better understand his impulses. But based on the events of the next few months, it seems like it may have only inspired him

27:09to indulge them. On December 11, 1945, just as school was letting out for the winter holidays, Bill started getting headaches again. In search of relief, he went back to the same neighborhood where he'd murdered Josephine Ross. And, just like he did six months earlier, he broke into an apartment while someone was home. This time, the tenant was 33-year-old Francis Brown. Francis had served as a volunteer naval reservist during World War II. She was known for leading a quiet life with few male visitors. According to Bill's later testimony, he expected the apartment to be empty and only killed Francis to keep her quiet. This explanation was even less convincing the second time around. Unlike most of Bill's burglaries, this one took place in the middle of the night when most people would normally be home. There was also the question of what Bill had done to Francis' body.

28:09He'd killed her with a gunshot to the head, but also repeatedly stabbed her body afterwards. Francis was also naked when the police found her. It's not clear if Bill sexually assaulted her, but he still took the time to remove her clothes and wrap her pajamas around her head. Francis was found in a similar way as Josephine. He tied her dress and stockings around her head as well. And considering all that, it seemed unlikely that Francis had only been killed to keep her quiet. The act seemed to be pure indulgence for Bill, as he was once again overcome by his sadistic dark side. In the aftermath of this second murder, however, Bill may have been deeply affected by what he'd done. Before he left the apartment, he used one of Francis' lipsticks to write a message on the wall. It said, quote, For heaven's sake, kill me before I kill more. I cannot control myself. Police were mystified.

29:09They couldn't understand why anyone would murder a woman in this way, and then leave a note about it. Without a viable theory from law enforcement, explanations were left to the press. The media had a field day, dubbing Francis Brown's murderer, the lipstick killer. Why would he even note like this and why in her lipstick? Given that it says, kill me before I kill more rather than stop me, indicates to me a sense of hopelessness that they felt that they could not be stopped at all. When he knew that Bill has struggled with repressed emotions and shame since he was quite young, so it would not be surprising to me if this message was in fact a cry for help. Almost like he was embroiled between the version of him he wants to be and the version of him he prefers to stay hidden. The use of the lipstick could be symbolic, but really it could have just been the only effective writing instrument for the wall that he could find. I would apply more meaning to that if it was a signature of his that happened as a

30:10pattern, but so far it's not. But what is a pattern is brapping his victim's heads with clothing. That has some kind of meaning. For example, if he's covering their entire face with the items of clothing and is blocking their eyes, then that could also speak to his desire to shield from shame. The murder of Francis Brown was far from the first time Bill had been overcome by dangerous impulses. After that of course there was the murder of Josephine Ross and then there were the hundreds of break ins as well as his compulsion to steal women's underwear. In fact Bill had been subjected to these terrible urges almost half his life. Yet even now at age 17 the lipstick killer didn't really understand where they came from. He wondered if the impulses came from somewhere or someone outside of himself. He even compared himself to Dr. Jackal and Mr. Hyde and had his own name for his criminal alter ego, George.

31:11Bill later told psychiatrist that George first appeared to him sometime around 1942 when he was 12 or 13 years old. When his parents were arguing and Bill got a headache, George would be the one to plan their escapes and soon those escapes turned into burglaries. The first Bill said he tried to argue with George to stop him from committing crimes, but when he did his headaches got even worse so he started going along with his alter ego, joining him and his efforts to, as Bill put it, get out. In time various psychiatrists heard this story from Bill and many disagreed on his diagnosis. Some thought he was traumatized or making things up. Others believed he had what is sometimes referred to as a split personality. A split personality is a very outdated term. What they're referring to is dissociative identity disorder, which was formally known as multiple personality disorder. It's an extremely rare mental health condition, which a person has two or more identities

32:14and it's typically developed as a reaction to repeated trauma as a means of survival. Each personality has their own name and unique characteristics, but each time a new personality takes over the host personality experiences a loss of time or a dissociative fugue. Therefore, they have no memory of what occurs during those times. This does not seem to be the case with Bill. Bill appears to be aware of what happens when George is taking over and has full recollection of what occurs. What I do think is happening is he's created George as an alter ego to protect against extreme feelings of shame. This way he can project blame and de-individuate from the darker parts of himself that he doesn't want to identify with and seemingly cannot control. Unfortunately, whether Bill was troubled by an associative identity disorder or something else entirely, he never received the mental health treatment he needed.

33:14As the beginning of his second semester in college approached, Bill continued his downward spiral and may have gone out to seek another victim. In the late hours of January 6, 1946, a married couple living on the north side of Chicago named James and Helen Degnon were woken up by some kind of noise. They thought they heard their six-year-old daughter, Suzanne, crying, but she quieted down after a moment so they didn't get up to check on her. Thinking nothing more of it, they went back to bed. The next morning, James went to Suzanne's room to wake her up for school. He noticed that Suzanne's door was closed, which was strange because he'd left it open for her the night before. Puzzled, he opened it and went into her room. His daughter was nowhere to be found, and Bill Hirons may have been to blame.

34:15When James Degnon discovered his six-year-old daughter, Suzanne, was missing on the morning of January 7, 1946, he immediately called the police to report a kidnapping. Multiple officers converged on the duplex. Chicago PD had been on high alert since the murder of Francis Brown a few weeks earlier. When they heard a child was missing from the same neighborhood, they surely feared the worst. There was no sign of Suzanne anywhere in the building, but the police did find a ladder on the ground outside that was tall enough to reach Suzanne's window. They also found a slip of crumpled paper in her bedroom. At first glance, it just looked like a piece of garbage, but on closer examination, they realized it was a ransom note. With odd block letters and multiple misspellings, the note instructed the family to gather $20,000 in fives and tens and wait for more instructions. But the authorities and the Degnons weren't going to wait around. After they found the note, James went on the local radio to try to reach the kidnapper

35:17and beg for his daughter's safety. Meanwhile, investigators went door-to-door in the neighborhood, looking for leads. Hours ticked by with no word from the kidnapper. Finally, later that evening, the police got an anonymous tip. The caller told them if they were looking for Suzanne Degnon, they should search the sewers behind her apartment. The police took the caller's advice, dreading the possibility that it was correct. A short time later, their worst fears were realized when they found Suzanne's dismembered body in a sewer grate. Okay. Without all of the police details, it's really hard to make sense of this, but let's start here. Who are the Degnons and why would they be targeted for a ransom? That's the first thing I'd want to know. Because if this was truly a kidnapped for ransom, how likely is it that the kidnappers or whomever would call and inform the family where to find the body without getting the actual ransom? That seems odd to me, though, of course, not necessarily impossible.

36:21But was this bill? And the one hand, it seems like a huge shift in Bill's previous methods and patterns, because until now he's not been motivated by greed. But then again, this ransom note could have simply been a red herring, and the anonymous caller could have just been him calling out of shame. However, it could also signify an acute escalation of criminality, which some criminologists refer to as a criminal spin, which is when someone experiences an increase in criminal activity and a decrease in self-control and empathy. We know that sexual burglaries are a precursor to future sexual violence, and this very well could be part of that escalation. Or he fixated on something he read about in the book, Psychopathia Sexualis. It hadn't had to compulsively act on it, but I couldn't say for certain without any familiarity with that book, but based on how you described it, it's very possible that that was the case. Whether or not it was Bill or whatever might have been going on in Bill's mind at the

37:23time of the murder, he didn't seem to be acting any different in his day-to-day life. On January 7, 1946, the day after Suzanne's murder, Bill went back to school, looking like any other happy student. Meanwhile, the rest of the city waited on a knife's edge for news about Suzanne Degnan's murder, and the media was eager to give it to them. Since the end of the war, newspapers had been struggling to maintain readership, with five daily newspapers vying for subscribers in the city of Chicago alone, reporters were desperate for stories that would hook readers and keep them coming back for more. They found one in the murder of Suzanne Degnan. For months, reporters hounded officials involved with the case, hungry for an update. Detectives would often oblige them, giving out theories in hopes of receiving information that led to the killer. In some ways, the arrangement seemed to pay off. Over the next several months, officials received over 5,000 tips about Suzanne's murder, which

38:25they suspected was related to the killings of Josephine Ross and Francis Brown. They followed up on over 60 percent of those leads. They interviewed more than 800 persons of interest, administered 170 light detector tests, and compared over 7,000 samples of handwriting to the ransom note. Yet, despite the massive amounts of data coming in, detectives were unable to find a viable suspect. Even when four separate men confessed to killing Suzanne Degnan, their stories were so clearly made up that police were forced to let them go. This might be surprising to some, but false confessions are quite common. There are a lot of reasons why this occurs, and in this case, for example, it could be attention-seeking behaviors, people trying to take the blame to protect someone else, or they may be suffering from a severe mental illness when that's impacting their reality. More commonly, however, false confessions are made during coercive interrogations when

39:26suspects are more vulnerable. It's more common to see that in adolescence than adults, but it does happen to both. As the weeks went by, the public started to demand answers. Letters were written to public officials, the press, and the police, asking why the killer hadn't been found. With the pressure mounting, some officers began making bad decisions. One time in early 1946, police arrested a 65-year-old immigrant who was the custodian of Suzanne Degnan's building. They illegally kept him in custody without access to a phone or a lawyer. Reportedly they even beat him in order to force a confession. This is exactly what I was referring to. This isn't just coercive. It's forced, like he said. It didn't work. After two days without a confession or any evidence tying him to the crime, the authorities released the man to his attorneys. The search for the lipstick killer was back at square one.

40:27Throughout the spring of 1946, the people of Chicago waited on edge for the murder or to be found, and yet there was one person who, at least outwardly, didn't seem to be bothered by it. The lipstick killer himself. Ever since Bill went back to school in early January, he'd continued participating in social events and had even started dating. But as Bill carried on with life on campus, his alter ego, George, was right behind him, waiting for another moment to get out. The moment nearly came one day in April of 1946. It's not clear what Bill was planning to do, although he was walking down the street with a loaded rifle. But before he could do anything, the police spotted him and took him down to the station. Bill told them he was taking the rifle home from a friend's house. He pointed out that because it wasn't concealed, it wasn't a crime, which was true in Chicago at the time, even for a rifle.

41:28Given that Bill already had an extensive rap sheet that included stealing firearms, it's surprising that the police believed anything he said. But perhaps because he didn't look like a criminal, the officers didn't bother to check his record. In any case, they were convinced by his argument and let the lipstick killer go. The close call didn't slow Bill down. By the end of the spring semester, Bill, now 17 years old, was at the height of his powers. On June 26, 1946, just a few weeks after returning home for the summer, Bill decided he needed to get out again. And he went back to the place where he felt most comfortable, the north side of Chicago. Armed with a gun, Bill proceeded to break into the basement of an apartment building, as he'd done many times before. This time, however, he was spotted by a maintenance man. Bill took off running as the witness chased him out the back basement door. For the first time in years, someone had the jump on Bill, but not for long.

42:33Frantic to escape, the teenager spun around and pulled his gun. He might have been planning to shoot, but the worker backed off in time. So Bill took off running again. As he barrelled down back alleys, he was filled with a sense of elation, what he called the power of George. And if he wasn't stopped, it was only a matter of time until he claimed another victim. Thanks for listening to this episode of Crime House 247. Be sure to check out our second episode on William Hirons, the lipstick killer, dropping later today. And to enhance your listening experience, join Crime House Plus and get every episode of Crime House 247 completely ad-free, along with early ad-free access to all Crime House shows, plus monthly bonus episodes. To join, go to CrimeHousePlus.com. Or if you listen on Apple Podcasts, tap Try Free at the top of the Crime House 247 page.

43:42Hi listeners, it's Vanessa. Are you the type to fall down an internet rabbit hole and not come up for hours? You'll love crimes of Reddit, a new Crime House original with Sabrina Dianna Roga and Alexis Linklenter. Every week, OneHouse brings real true crime stories from Reddit, while the other reacts completely blind. No prep, no spoilers, then they swab. It's the feeling of sending your group chat a Reddit 2AM that starts with, you have to see this. Except Sabrina and Alexis are in the chat with you. Follow Crime's of Reddit on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, or subscribe at Crime's of Reddit pod on YouTube.