Tony Hale - "Bring Two Crutches"

Hey, this is Tony Hale, and you are listening to Die of Exposure with The Wonderful, Mr. Dan.

Hello, my name is Dan Mangan. You are listening to Dying of Exposure with Dan Mangan, that's me.

On this podcast, I do long form interviews with great artists, generally musicians, actors, writers, and you get it.

We talk about a whole bunch of stuff. I like to understand what the artist's job is and society will role, artist play in general.

And I'm also curious to dig into the struggle. Artists will do anything for exposure, but you can die of exposure.

I want to know. I want to know about those early days before they were kind of realized in the public's view.

I think it's really helpful for everybody to hear from accomplished people about the harder times in their lives.

The struggles as they have tried to make a life in art, which is, you know, it's a miracle to make a living in the art.

Today we've got such a special guest. I was over the moon when he said that he would do this show.

He mentions that some people regard faith as a crutch, and he says, well, life is hard. Bring two crutches.

He talks about being a nervous person, moving alone to New York, not knowing a soul.

He talks about catering at events with celebrities that he would then come to know as an actor later on.

Of course, we talk about arrest the development, which was the show that brought him to my attention as Buster Bluth,

and also Gary on Veepe. He plays Fear on Inside Out.

Early on, he was in a very, very famous Volkswagen ad, dancing to Mr. Roboto.

I remember that commercial, and I did not know that was Tony until I was researching for this conversation.

It is because of his complete and utter dedication to the role that Buster Bluth has become one of the most beloved characters in American television history,

particularly when it comes to cult comedy favorites that were canceled all too soon.

I think it's just one of the most special character comedic actors that we've got.

I'm so pleased to share with you my chat with Tony Hill.

So nice to see you, Tony. Thank you so much for doing this.

So nice to see you. Finally, we've been back and forth through Insta in Texas. Nice to talk in person.

Yeah, when I get to connect with people like yourself, I have these moments where I'm like,

the internet isn't all bad. You know what I'm saying?

There are small sections of the internet that aren't that bad.

So you are CT. You are somewhere in the middle of the continent.

I am in now Birmingham, Alabama.

Oh, no way. Interesting.

Yeah, we moved from we were in LA for 22 years, loved it, and then we were back and forth like two or three times a year for family,

and then when my daughter graduated high school, we needed to be closer to parents and stuff.

So we made the move and it's a very different culture, but we weren't Birmingham.

And we really like it a lot.

And is your is that is your wife from there or is?

Yeah, so my wife's family is an hour from here in Aniston, Alabama.

And my family is in Atlanta making Georgia and rolling with Carolina.

So it's all kind of in the south.

Right. So I read the Europe and Florida, but clearly that that was like a temporary thing.

That was, I mean, I was our seventh grader to senior year in high school and then my parents moved.

Yeah, but I love going back to Alhassi.

It's a, you know, I went to Florida for the very first time just this year in February.

Oh, yeah.

As a Canadian, it was kind of a funny time to go.

It was right in the middle of the year.

Everyone I talked to was like, oh, 51st state, you know.

Yeah.

And I'm like, yeah, I know it was casually joking about annexing my home.

Yeah, that's cool.

Um, but, um, I, you know, Florida has a reputation, right?

You know, the whole Florida thing and I was like a little bit trepidatious.

And I had the best time.

It was beautiful.

Oh, that's the best amazing people.

It's like anything.

I mean, obviously every, every state, I mean, I'm here and people are bringing up California

and be like, oh, California.

Then I'm a California.

People are bringing up Alabama.

Oh, Alabama or Florida.

Yeah.

You always find your people, you know, you, there's sections that are great and then sections

that are everywhere that are just kind of a little whacked out.

Yeah.

I mean, I think it's a good reminder for the internet in general where like, you know,

where all keyboard warriors are reading comments or something.

And then like, if you actually look somebody in the eye and talk to them,

there's generally some part of them that you can be like, oh, we're the same.

Totally, totally.

That's a big kind of not to get meta, but I was just talking about this with someone

with acting that they call acting an act of empathy because you, when you're doing a character,

you can't, you can't have an us them mentality.

You have to find a trait, all the traits you think you hate about this character,

they're also in yourself.

Right.

And so you have to find that bridge in order to play at the most authentic version of it.

I find all the most frustrating elements of my kids are also myself, you know?

Yes.

They're like a mirror.

Yes.

That really bugs me.

But the thing that bugs me about it is because it's a thing I haven't resolved about myself

and I'm seeing it in you and I'm blaming myself for giving it to you and all of that.

Yeah.

It's a complicated stew.

It is complicated.

How old are your kids at the end?

So 12 and nine.

Oh.

Okay.

And you're just shipped off, right?

You're empty nesters now?

Yeah.

We're empty nesters.

She's 19.

She's going to be 20 in February.

Crazy.

And so I, I, something I wanted to ask you, I read that your dad was, he taught nuclear

and atomic physics.

Yeah.

But you grew up in like a very evangelical community as far as I've read, as far as the internet

tells me.

Yeah.

It's, I don't know if I grew up in evangelical.

I grew up Baptist.

Yeah.

So it was, I mean, nothing against Baptist.

I had, I had a great, um, I had a great experience, but it was very formulaic.

It was very kind of.

Social clubby, um, I don't know if there was necessarily a connection.

I mean, for me, not necessarily a connection to God or relationship to God, that didn't

come late until later, when, you know, shit had the fan a little bit of my life, right?

So, um, but it was, uh, I think it was, if there was an evangelical thing about it, it

was probably pretty like a point system, right?

You know, it's a fairly connected to God.

Yeah.

I have to think that, like, the idea of like being good to get points to get into heaven

or something.

Yeah.

It's sort of like, but like heaven is here.

Like hell is here.

It's all on earth.

Like, like, like, like people are living in hell and you can choose to be in heaven.

You know, I, I, I, I, I grew up in my mom was a minister and, um, oh, wow, but in, in,

in quite a different kind of church, the United Church of Canada, which is, um, it's

sort of, it was like an extension of the Church of England is very progressive.

She was like an openly gay, um, minister in the, like late 90s, which is, you know, kind

of kind of crazy looking back, um, but, uh, I remember being like 12 and sort of saying,

ah, I don't think this is for me, um, but I have retained a lot from it.

Like, you know, I love the idea of just like giving for the sake of giving and kindness

for the sake of kindness and, you know, it's like the, what would Jesus do, kind of thing?

Sure.

Like the bracelets, like, you know, as, as you, as you get older and you start taking

those into heart and P, you'd be like, oh, are you a communist?

Yeah.

I know.

Yeah.

It's also like life is so, I mean, speaking of like we were saying hell and stuff, life

is so hard.

Mm-hmm.

It can be so hard sometimes.

And people have always, you know, not all, I damn said this always, but every now and

then they'll, they'll say, you know, faith is a crutch or something like that.

Sure.

And I'm like, I'm like, bring two crutches, man.

Yeah, take them off.

I don't want to walk this as alone.

If I can surrender this up to a being that's higher than me, bring it.

Mm-hmm.

You know?

Yeah.

I, I, where I've kind of landed is this, I, you know, like, not like a being, not like

a, I feel like the God that I believe it has no opinions.

Mm-hmm.

You know what I mean?

Like it, like it has no judgment.

It just sort of is and it's the connecting force that, you know, connects all living things

together.

Mm-hmm.

And that sort of helps me.

I mean, I, I, you've, I find like if you look out at the ocean or you look at a mountain

or you look at the stars or something and you feel very small kind of as you're saying,

like you submit, you know, you stop looking for evidence of your importance or something

like that and just sort of accept your unimportant, you know.

And it's just such a, I mean, the ocean is, is it for me or something about being at

the ocean that it's, it's both terrifying.

That's where you went to Alabama.

Exactly.

It's both terrifying and super peaceful and comforting.

Yeah.

And it's that dichotomy of just, you feel so small, but you feel so comforted.

And it could swallow you up, you know, like, like, like just, if you went out there and

just submitted to the ocean, like you would, you would be devoured by a million creatures

in, yeah, no time, you know.

And at the same time, the unknown, million aspects of love, form, I mean, it's like who

knows the uncertainty of it.

It's both crazy and like exciting at the same time.

However, I am the guy that's like, all I think about when I go on the ocean, I think

of jaws.

Like, I, it is a Pavlovian response for me now that I go out on the ocean and I hear that

music.

And it's just, Steven Spielberg just ruined it for me.

Yeah.

Think about like all the people who are afraid of sharks because of that movie.

Yeah.

And like, like, in comparison to how many people should be afraid of like driving a car.

Yes.

Not to mention the shark looks so fake at the time compared to what they can do now.

But there was, it's the music for me.

Yeah.

It was just something about the, that, that score was so daunting.

I mean, you're, you're like a, you know, incredible musician.

But there was the power of that was just like, I can't get out of my head.

Did you happen to watch as a documentary about John Williams, um, on one of the streamers

I can't remember which one and, um, talks about him kind of sitting with Steven Spielberg

and he's like, okay, I got this idea for jaws.

And John Williams just, you know, on the piano goes like, uh, go, go, uh, and, and Steven

Spielberg's like, oh, okay.

And then what?

And he's just like, no, no, no, that's it.

He's like, really?

Yeah.

Oh, that's cool.

I got to watch that.

Go, go, go, go, go.

It's, that's cool.

And it speeds up.

And that, that's speeding up is it's coming towards you and about just to kind of mull

you.

Yeah.

It's wild.

A side note.

I had really bad ex.

I was a kid.

Yeah.

So it's like, when I went in the ocean, I was like, well, they're gonna smell the blood.

They're still in the guts.

And I am primed.

Yeah.

Prime, prime and ready to go.

Yeah.

And so you did, uh, to keep telling you about, uh, you eventually made your way to New

York, right?

Before you went to LA.

Yeah.

So I was in.

Okay.

So I was a graduated college, 92.

And then I moved to New York in 95, did not know a soul.

Um, I looked back on that time and I'm like, what the hell was I thinking?

Like, I just, because I don't consider, I mean, I'm a nervous person.

I've had a lot of therapy.

So I've worked on it.

But I'm not, I don't like travel, like going to the same restaurants, this, I like a

mall.

You know, it's like, great.

I like, I like steady things.

And so the thought of me going to the city and just, you know, speaking about like being

absorbed by the depth.

Right.

And I was just like swallowed up by New York, New York is a notion.

It is a notion.

And there are sharks.

Yeah.

And there are sharks.

Yeah.

And especially in my business.

Yeah.

And so I, I don't know, I look back on that.

And I'm like, I can't help but think something spiritual was kind of pushing me a little

bit.

And so I moved seven times in the first seven months of being there, just sleeping on

couches, fine, trying to find places on, you know, um, like not, we don't have an online

back then.

I kind of like newspapers and stuff had two friends.

And then I started doing theater.

My first show with Shakespeare in the parking lot, but I did Shakespeare in the parking

lot in the East Village.

And then just kind of had so many jobs, so many jobs.

And then, and then I started getting into commercials like service industry jobs or acting

jobs.

Yeah.

Service.

Oh, yes.

Sorry.

Service like just making ends meet.

Yeah.

I would pass out flyers in Bryant Park.

I would, um, cater waiter, which I really loved because the waiting tables really stressed

me out because people just become monstrous when it becomes, when it comes to food.

Yeah.

So I just left hating the world when I did that.

But catering, you didn't have to deal with the people as much as the same food.

You got paid by the hour.

It was just really easy.

I met a lot of other actors that way.

And then at the end of the night, we got to like, chow on like a top notch food.

Right.

We're all the leftovers.

Yeah.

Oh, man.

And you put that with starving artists.

And it was just like, I mean, it was just full war.

Did you ever, when you were doing that, um, serve some, you know, sort of members of

high society or like, famous people that then you reconnected with later, once, you know,

your, your own star had risen?

Um, that's a good question.

Yeah.

I think I remember doing the opening of the Philharmonic and I was catering there and

Sarah Jessica Parker was there.

And, uh, you know, I was just standing there with my tray and then years later, I did,

um, hookah's focus too with her.

And I obviously didn't mention the star, but it was, uh, it was one of those moments of

like, oh, now we're working together.

Right.

That was, um, I'm not kidding.

That was probably like, gosh, 25 years later, you know, weren't you also on Sex and

the City?

Oh, yeah.

I was on Sex and the City.

My scene though was not with her.

It was with Kim Control.

Yeah.

So I didn't really meet her then, but she's lovely, you know, and that's what's great

about, I mean, as you know, being in the music business, when you meet kind of people

that have been around a lot, you see the humanity a little more, you know, you, they're not

such pedestal people, you just see, you know, behind the curtain a little bit and it's

like, woo, we're all just, yeah, I mean, I've worked, you know, with a lot of people and

you just see like we're all just works in progress, trying to, trying to find the next

gig.

Everyone's just doing their best, you know, doing their best.

Yeah.

And the experience of meeting some of my musical heroes and kind of without fail, the people

who are the most artistically accomplished and sort of resolved and strongest in my opinion

tend to also end up being the kindest and the sweetest and just like the most relaxed.

Yeah.

And it's the middle people that are like kind of trying hard and kind of like a, you know,

to present themselves as being cool.

Because cool, I think even more in my industry than in yours being cool is so important and

it's just a terrible disease, you know, it's like this, yeah, yeah, yeah, and so it,

but like the people who have risen above that, like I've met right ahead and I've, you

know, Jeff Tweety from Wilco and stuff, these people, you meet them and they're just like,

they're just artistic people who are kind of weird and shy and awesome and amazing, you

know.

And so that's good.

You also kind of allow you, you get the sense that you've, they've allowed themselves

to kind of give themselves over to their own pain and their own humanness and learn from

it.

Totally.

You know, that's, and you know, speaking of like how small we are amidst everything, it's

like we're not any better or we are just, we're all spending on a planet and trying to

make this work.

Well, and also like maybe what makes there a compelling is the fact that they've done the

work, like they've done the emotional work to be, like I think that, like that's the

work of life is to be able to sit alone without any distraction or, you know, intoxication

and just be okay with who you are, like just sit with yourself and be fine.

It's the true hard work of life.

It is a hard work.

I'm going to show you something here.

I think if I press this button, it's just, oh gosh, I swear she's different.

I mean, like I can feel it, she's just like all the rest, Billy.

No, no, no, no, no, just understand.

You just another file number to her, Billy.

No, no.

Give her half a chance and she'll lock you up and throw away the key.

No, don't make me kill her, JD.

Unreal.

I'm sorry.

That is crazy.

Why did you find that?

For the benefit of the listener, that is Tony on Ghost Stories.

What?

I had late 90s, I think.

Yeah.

No, a lot late 90s.

I think like 93, maybe 94.

I feel like today, you know, I watched a bunch of this episode.

So you play this, you know, psycho killer, right?

Psycho killer.

And it's hard because if there's a social worker who really wants to help you, and she breaks

through the sort of veil of, you know, it kind of captures you for who you are, and you

want to be friends with her.

And then I guess that's like your inner voice telling you that you must kill her.

I found on YouTube, yeah, dude, that is, that was 30 years ago, 30 years ago.

Tell me, so that, but it's a juicy role.

It's a big role, I mean, on like a, you know, network television show that must have

been like life changing in a way.

Um, yeah, I, I guess, I mean, it's, I don't know if you're like this, but I, I even feel

this way about arrested or V, burning like that.

It's, it almost feels like a different person, you know, it, it, and when it feels like

a different person, you kind of put it into a category of not necessarily in your present

or in your present.

I mean, like, like, like your, it was a different person than that it was an earlier version

of yourself.

Yeah.

And so I can't remember it, but also with that, I can't remember the specifics much of

that person.

I remember being, I'm sure I was super excited because he was, this was, I mean, I was

playing a character that was very layered, you know, and, and then I kind of got buster

and then I kind of got put into this, and even commercials kind of this quirky, you

know, not all their character, which is so fun to play.

Yeah.

But back then, it was starting out.

So I could, I was, he was, you know, it's a very layered character and it wasn't, it

probably wasn't until a while after V that I started playing maybe different versions

of myself, like different layers of characters.

Yeah.

And it, it, to me, it's, like, my wife is, is an actor as well.

And so I'm helping her with self tapes all the time and, you know, it's, it's like,

when you get a page, it's like, okay, yeah, sometimes you get an audition and there's

like three, five, six pages of text or something, it's a lot of work, like, it's a lot of

work to prepare for something like that.

And you have like a one in 100 chance of, of getting it or something.

It's a lot of projects.

So the, you know, the title of this podcast is dying of exposure and the joke is that artists

will do anything for exposure, but you can die of exposure and, yeah, that's true.

So can you, you know, if, when you think back to that time and I know, when, when I think

of my previous self, when I hear a song of mine that I wrote 25 years ago or something,

I, it's like looking at a picture of yourself when you were younger and half of you was going

what?

And idiot.

And then the other half is going, look at that cute little guy, you know?

Yeah.

But when you, when you think back to that time, like, New York, you talked a little bit

about it already, like couch surfing and stuff like that, but do you remember the struggle,

you know?

Oh, yeah.

I do remember the struggle.

I remember there's so many things to that, my thoughts that came in my head with that

question of even the dying of exposure, if I'm honest, when I started out, I, I wanted

to be famous.

Sure.

I wanted to, and it wasn't to be famous, to be famous, it was to be famous, to be seen.

Yeah.

Because I think it, you know, I just actually gave the commencement address for my college.

Cool.

This past Saturday.

It's a brighter passage.

Big and a big message I had was my, my business kind of says you have value when this happens.

And that could be getting a sitcom, Broadway, you know, get it becoming a name or whatever.

And that was my this, like I, it was trying to fill some kind of value void for me.

Yeah.

And what I said to them was I said, one thing I wish someone had told me back then is

that the value I had graduating 33 years ago is the same value I have standing before

you today.

Right.

And it has not been added to or anything taken away.

So I, back then the exposure was full fame, but kind of coming more into my body and

more into myself, you know, I totally forgot.

The other part of your question.

No, no exposure.

Definitely.

I love that.

It reminds me.

There was an ME speech.

I can't remember who gave it.

It was a writer, I think.

And she said something along the lines of like, you know, in a world that equates visibility

with success, don't be afraid to be invisible for, you know, man.

I mean, good Lord, talk about, I mean, not to get back to faith, but like Christ came

up.

It's like I was like, invisible.

He didn't come with, you know, Trumpets glaring, you know, it's, and that is not, I mean,

in the age of social media, especially, it is just all to be seen.

And this is another thing.

I feel like I talk about this so much, so I apologize if you've heard this.

In the whole idea of fame, I find fascinating because I think what we want is the exact

opposite.

For instance, if you take a person who is at the top of the game, the most famous, like

a Kardashian, then you also take a person who's working in a mall somewhere in Florida.

I pitch that person in the mall is more known than the Kardashian because anything that's

given to that Kardashian, anything that's said to them, or even like a huge celebrity,

or say, they always question if strings are attached.

They always wonder what someone's motives, why do they want to know me?

Why do they want to give this to me?

Why do they want to say this to me?

That person working at the mall in Florida does not have those questions.

They can freely receive all that stuff.

So I, the person is much more known than the high celebrity and the fame, they call it

being known, but it's just swapped.

You know, it's full swapped.

Lonely at the top kind of stuff.

Yeah.

I see it.

Man, years ago, I scored a Simon Pegg film and he was in town and Prince was doing this

like really random, he did like three nights, two shows a night, three nights, a small

theater.

Yeah, I remember this actually.

And in a friend of mine who owns the kind of, the theater, the cool things called the

Vogue Theater here in Vancouver, was like, yeah, Prince is sound checking right now.

Like do you want to sneak down here and just, and that night we took Simon and a few other

people from the film to go see Prince perform in this like 1300 capacity venue, which is

for him would be like a shoe box.

And we went, I just meet me and my wife went down, kind of stuck into the venue while

he was sound checking.

And everybody was on eggshells like everybody was like whispering like so quietly like always

out.

Yeah.

And I was, we, it was actually not a good experience.

I watched him sound check and the way he treated the band and the way that everyone had

sort of arranged the situation to be like, you are an icon and you know, we're lucky

to be in your presence.

I just felt like, and I don't know, like, and this was just my impression at the time,

I don't want to speak ill of legends, but I just thought, this guy's fucking miserable.

Like I just, it felt he seemed so lonely and isolated.

I heard the story of how he had kind of one time dropped his armor and come to know a crew

member throughout the day and kind of invited the crew member to dinner.

And the crew member was like, oh, I was told not to look him in the eyes.

This is cool, you know, and then they kind of became friends.

And then like the next day, he couldn't handle that he had done that because it had sort

of broken the facade of the icon and he had to like fire this guy.

Like, I don't know that I cannot tell you if that's 100% true, but this is like a story

that, you know, yeah, I mean, picking up identity though, it's just like his, as

much as he and anyone really at that level, and as much as they want the release of that

kind of mental prison, that's all they know.

That kind of heightened celebrity.

So when that has been broken, it's like, I can't go to like an unknown, what am I going

to be without that?

Yeah.

You know, that's scary.

I remember Tiffany Haddish telling this story about when she befriended Will Smith and

Jada Pinkett Smith and she was like, oh, I got a group on for like a, like a boat cruise.

And then Will and Jada show up.

And it's just like a whole bunch of other normal people there because, and they're like,

oh, you didn't just like rent out the boat, like you didn't praise isn't a private event.

And they were like, we haven't been around normal people in like 15 years.

Well, I was thinking, like, what a crazy, like, you know, no wonder people sort of start

to breathe in their own exhaust and kind of get lost and, you know, yeah.

And at the same time, I have someone at that level, I kind of understand it because they

can't relax because everyone around them is anxious because everybody around them puts

them in that position.

Totally.

So if it's, if the boat's not rented out, they're not going to have a good time.

Yeah.

You know, so it's, they realize, oh, this has become work now.

Yeah.

This is not a fun thing.

Right.

Oh, that's so well put.

It has become work because now they're in the public eye.

Yeah.

And now it's like, they're going to be, you know, people are going to be like secretly

taking videos of them from their head.

Yeah.

And they're not present.

They're not having a good time.

I kind of get that a little bit.

That's so much.

I mean, I don't get it.

But I can understand that perspective.

Well, I think, you know, and I think about like back when Tom Cruise's kid was born,

was a Surrey, and like the insanity of the world, you know, going over like the, like

there was whole news stories about just how much it cost for a photo of the baby and

all this stuff.

And I was thinking like at the same time, an equally famous actor, you know, the highest

grossing actor of all times is Harrison Ford, and I was like, I don't know any of his

kids names.

I don't know, you know, at some point you make a choice, I guess, to kind of like, you

know, really dig into the machine or not.

I don't know.

That is true.

I mean, I remember when he started dating her and went on the Oprah show and all that

kind of stuff.

I guess it is, you do make a choice about how much you want to dive into that, you know,

totally.

And so I, it would be just silly of me to not talk about arrested.

I, that's how I came to know you, I'm in my forties now and maybe I found that I have

very high genetic cholesterol, and so I have to, I do two hours on the bike now every

week.

I have been, it's just like, you know, I'm just trying to stave off any kind of unlikely

heart episode, but that's the best way to lower your cholesterol is just tons of cardio.

And I have been crushing again, like probably the third time crushing a rest of development,

like two, two episodes is about like 42 minutes is perfect, and then I do that two times

a week.

Oh, awesome.

And it's been so enjoyable.

And I, I just, you know, it's like, there's like certain things in this show that I'm

like, that wouldn't fly today, but there's like, but most of it is just like, it just, I

feel like it's a miracle, that show is a miracle to me.

Yeah.

And at the time, it was, and I, I would love to, I mean, you probably talked so much

about this.

No, I love it.

I feel like so many things can go wrong.

It's like when you watch the wire or something, it's like, so many people could have ruined

this and they didn't.

Yeah.

Like, it was everybody's to fuck up and they didn't.

It's a huge credit to Metrowitz who created the show because, you know, it was, at the

time, people were not used to thinking about comedy, you know, they were used to kind

of being fed like a one, two punch and a very typical multi-cam formula, multi-cam remuting

like, you know, like two and a half men or something that's kind of like a, yeah, friends

like a studio audience.

And so it was, arrest, it was very layered, you know, there were jokes like Blue Man

and Group, all that kind of stuff that just went throughout episodes and like through

seasons, like something called back, yeah, yeah, callbacks.

And it would drama, people are very used to thinking about trying to figure out the mystery,

trying to if you got the case, but not with comedy.

So he got a lot of pushback, a lot of pushback from the higher ups and he stuck to his guns

and he really, I have huge admiration for him just like being like, no, this is, this

can work.

Now it didn't work at the time.

We got canceled after two and a half seasons and then DVDs came into the picture.

So people started seeing it through DVDs and that's how it caught fire because people

could go back and get the jokes, they could spend time on it and be like, oh, that's what

this means.

And you know, they could replay it and all that stuff.

And then when Netflix got us, that's when it kind of really caught fire and then it

rose back.

Yeah.

Oh, I'm just so thankful.

Yeah.

Me too.

I need to go back and see it again.

That's another one of those different life things that I, I need to probably get on

it with fresh eyes because it's been so many years.

We shot the pilot 23 years ago, yeah, insane.

And so it's very, very, I need to, I need to go get fresh eyes on it.

I think that like, you know, so often when I relate this to music in my world, like,

you know, when you're in the studio and you're paying people to be there, there's this

like beer.

I'm like, we've got to get this and it's for you, it's maybe it's the take.

You got to get the take.

This is the take.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And of course, you know, coming back to that whole like centering yourself and feelings

when you're letting go of the ego and everything and of course, the thing that brings about

the most rewarding creative outcome is when you can kind of be, mind the cliche in the

moment and, you know, not in your thinking brain.

And so anytime I'm able to get there, whether it's on stage or whether it's in the studio

setting, after the fact, that's where my mind goes.

I just go straight to gratitude.

I'm just like, I could have fucked that up.

I didn't fuck that up.

Yeah.

God, you know, yeah, yeah, and I, it's like when you, when you're looking at the cast,

you're like, oh, that show would not be the same without Michael, Michael Sarah.

Yeah.

That show would not be the same without Tony Hale.

That show, you know, every single person in that show, it could not be anybody else,

you know, it just had to be.

Yeah.

And it was, I mean, I, speaking of it, I remember coming in because I was a huge Jeffrey

Tamboar fan and Jason, I knew from, you know, all of his work in the 80s and David Cross

from, oh, my God, Mr. Show, all this kind of stuff.

And so I was just like, what's the, I mean, I was genuinely in New York doing quirky commercials,

many jobs, speaking of which early viral Volkswagen, Mr. Roboto ad.

Yes.

That was a callback in the show.

I don't know if you remember, like, they had a callback of that.

If you remember, there's a scene where, so in the commercial, I'm doing Mr. Roboto.

And in the show, I have my hook on and I start doing the robot in the car and my hook hits

the, oh, my God.

And that was a callback to that commercial.

But I mean, I was in New York and I, a, a, a, a Marsha Gabonis, this commercial casting

director saw the description that said this character was just walked out and all there.

She's the one who called me in to read for Buster.

And I was like, oh, my gosh, this would be a dream.

But I mean, I was, they're never going to pick me.

And at the time, and I still am a huge Christopher guest fan, waiting for Guffman and best

in show.

Totally.

And it had remnants of that.

Kind of doc, you feel and very kind of, you know, doc, you know, just kind of looking

through a lens of a crazy family.

And so I was like, oh, this would be a dream.

And they brought me out to LA to, to read for it.

I was just like, what's going on?

I remember.

And then they, so I booked it and then they shot the pilot the same time that I've flown

out there.

I thought I was going to come back to New York.

So I ran out of underwear.

I remember just simply running out of underwear.

I had to go to Old Navy to get.

Yeah.

And then they flew you out, getting that would never happen today, right?

It would all be done online.

I guess.

It would all be done online.

And yeah, I just like, that kind of interpersonal connection in a room with people seeing the kind

of intricacies of what someone can bring to an emotional, an emotional life that someone

can bring to a character.

I feel like that.

I just had an audition if I'm honest, like two days ago for this movie with this director,

I just bombed it.

I bombed it.

And it was over.

I was, I have this, I'm getting over this.

Cold.

And I just was in my head and Zoom is just confusing sometimes and sometimes Zoom works.

Sometimes it doesn't.

And it's, but there's nothing beats like an in the room audition, just to kind of have

that connection.

Do you, do you, like, form yourself?

Can you conjure that audition?

Like was it, did, did everyone know, like was the magic there right away and everyone

was like, this is it?

If I arrested.

Yeah.

And I, I remember I did come in with very low expectations.

Of course I wanted it bad, but I came in very low expectations.

And I just, there was a subtlety that to buster because he kind of got broader and broader.

He kind of became like it's own cartoon character almost.

But he kind of, he's doing a very subtle, and I remember Mitch wanting to bring that

back more when they wouldn't have flex bars back, but, and I just, I've struggled with

anxiety and I had panic attacks in the past and, and I just knew that, and I also struggled

with co-dependency.

So all these things I just kind of did myself, in addition to these crazy circumstances.

And very kind of, because, you know, Jason Bateman has said that if you really look at

the, what's on page of arrest and it's a very sad story, it's a very sad, it's a drama,

like it is a story of massive dysfunction, and the more that you just trust the process

and play it real, like the funnier it is.

So I really tried to kind of find that, and buster.

So many little subtlety's like, and the callback humor, you know, there's like the, hey brother

and then, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, hey inmate or something like that when you're

like, hey, chill, yeah, I forgot about that.

And even today, I, you know, because a lot of my, I probably have done it with you, but

it's like our texting, I'll say, hey brother, like, hey brother, but that's just a part

of my vernacular.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And now I'm like, oh, it's so, that's so loaded now, like I need to probably stop doing

that.

So I'll say like, hey sir, because hey brother is too, it's, people hear me do it, they're

like, oh, let's buster.

Yeah, yeah, he's going to be all right.

Yeah.

That is, okay, now that, have you ever heard this?

When that doctor came out and said, he's going to be all right and then the mother gets

excited and he says, no, he's, he's not going to, he's going to be, he's just going to

have a right arm.

So I was doing this podcast years ago at the San Francisco sketch fest in front of this

audience and they said, what is your favorite joke from wrestling?

I mentioned that joke.

It's a great joke.

Or I mentioned that whole scene.

Yeah.

And I said, the doctor comes out and said, he's going to be okay.

And I just completely blanked.

And the person in the audience said, no, he's going to be all right because you just

had a right arm.

I loved that scene, but it wasn't until that podcast that I realized, oh my God, that's

the joke.

I just had a right arm.

So I didn't get a joke until 15 years after the fact, which is kind of perfect.

Yeah.

I love that.

One of my favorite, you know, I love dad jokes and puns and stuff, but one of my favorite,

I think it's from 30 rock and the doctor comes in and he goes, you know, Mr. Hale, I

don't know how to say this, but you've got, and he looks down at the sheet, diabetes.

Oh, I've told that so many times.

That's like Tobias is, um, which of the stuff in that fly, but his license plate of an

hour.

Oh yeah.

An hour of pissed.

Yeah.

The world's first.

Yeah.

It is so dark, but so funny is I will say that's the other joke I love is the blue man group

because the fact that he joined the blue man group thinking he was a support group for

depressed man is just so perfect.

And then he's the understudy.

So he's like, you know, like I'm not available until 801 because then he knows that he's not

getting the call.

Yeah.

It's so many.

Exactly.

So I watched the new naked gun run on tour with him.

I haven't seen it yet.

It is great.

I was really worried that it was going to be awful.

And I just giggled, like I just giggled like a little kid because they just, yeah, there's

like, I don't, like I'm sure you could someone counted it, but like it feels like there's

like six jokes a minute.

It's just like, bam, bam, like every couple seconds, there's a joke.

Yeah.

And if you just sort of like give yourself up to like, this is what this is the experience

we're having.

Yeah.

I loved it.

And Liam Neeson is funny.

He's very funny.

Yeah.

And, but I feel like with the rest of the development, it moves really quick.

And there's so much callback and like you can miss it.

And that's why it, it really serves multiple watchings is because then you start catching

all these other jokes that you missed the first time.

Totally.

Did you, did you find after that experience?

The buster was like a, you know, we didn't have memes back then.

But like one of the most memeable characters, right, and so many taglines and, um, did

you find it hard to kind of break out of that cage afterwards in terms of what you were

getting offered?

Yeah.

Speaking of memes, there's one new one where I'm holding my stuff, Daniel Moles, and it

says, these are my awards from FIFA.

These are my, these are my awards mother from FIFA.

Um, but, uh, amazing.

Yeah.

I, I did actually, I mean, and also I understood it because if I, if I'm leaving a rest of

the development playing a very distinct character and someone's casting like a lawyer, it's

not like they're going to be like, Oh, you'd hope you're really good for this as the

guy who played buster blues on the rest of the world.

So I had to get out there and I had the showcase that I can do other stuff and I can act normal

and all that stuff.

But it took time, you know, and, and deep was a little more bustery.

Well, he was a little more kind of regulated and could be in the, you know, have a job

and stuff.

Yeah.

But it's like, I also, I also kind of accept the fact that I enjoy, I enjoy playing the

awkwardness.

I enjoy playing that tension.

Nothing is more fun.

I don't like watching it.

I can't watch shows or two times.

I have to leave the room.

Oh, really?

I love it.

I think I'm one of those HSPs, those highly sensitive persons.

Right.

So even the office, like how about watching the office and I'm like, Oh, I got to get out

of here.

Yeah.

I'm just, oh, can't buy.

Yeah.

My wife's a bit like that.

She can't, she can't do it.

I can't.

It's too, like all the heavy shows, I can't watch.

But playing it, being in it and playing that tension, there's nothing more fun than

that.

Yeah.

Just because I can separate myself.

It's so juicy.

And I love this sort of like everyone, every actor is kind of being dared not to break

all the time.

Like you have to play it straight.

You can't wink, you know, like you can't.

And my favorite things to do is to watch the blooperials.

Yeah.

I can see there's one blooper from arrested where I remember what season was, but it's

when I'm dating Liza and Will and I come into this like tent on the beach.

And I'm talking to David Cross and I think maybe Liza's there.

Yeah.

And I'm talking and I can see in Will's face that he's about to break and then I break

a little bit and then we both lose it.

And those just give me such joy because it's on deep is the same thing.

Like when you're that close to Julie Louis Dreyfus, it's, it's a supernatural power to

not be able to break when they're that close to it.

How amazing is she?

She's incredible.

And she's, she's just a very, very good person.

Yeah.

And I just, man, she made the seven years of us all working together just such a joy

because she came in with, you know, we're all a team.

Let's, let's make this happen.

Yeah.

And no one's higher than anybody else and it was just, she was a real gift to us.

I wonder if, I mean, it could only have, but, you know, like, presumably met her on

arrested.

No, no.

By the way, I take that back.

I did meet her.

There's a funny story about that because when we were on deep, somebody asked us separately,

separately, they said, did you guys have any scenes on arrested development?

And we both separately went, no.

And then somebody sent us a screenshot of us in a scene together on arrested development.

And we both blocked each other out completely, just made no, no impact on each other's lives.

But she's talked a little bit about how she can't remember much of anything.

Like she can't remember making sign felt at all.

Yeah.

I get that though.

I don't.

Some people have those kind of memories that really attach to things.

I don't know.

Like I'm just, and after Christmas, I'm going to drive down to a towel, ask your Florida

where I grew up.

And I'm so excited because I like to go back and reconnect with these places because

my memory is just crap.

And I'm very nostalgic.

Like I love to just, I don't know, I literally walked around them all last time, where I would

always go to them all.

And I don't, I don't have a connection in arrested.

I can't tell you one line that I said, except probably, hey, brother, you know, it's like

nothing really has stuck.

I mean, and isn't that also kind of beautiful?

It's like the, you know, the Buddhist practice, you make like the crazy sand sculptures.

And then once you're done, and it takes you a month to do it, and then you just go away

and away.

Oh, that makes me feel better.

Thank you for saying that.

I'm going to use that for the rest of my life.

Yeah.

Totally.

I honestly like, I forget things too.

I forget people's faces.

I forget people's names.

I forget.

Yeah.

You know, I've played thousands of shows in my life and people be like, oh, I was at that

show in Norman, Oklahoma, or something, I'll be like, yeah, I couldn't tell you.

You know, like, I could not tell you.

Yeah.

Dude, I'm pretty good with faces.

I will say that it's names that are just completely washed out.

I have, though, I have such, my first panic attack, my first panic attack in high school

was I was singing a solo for this show called Cotton Patch Gospel.

And it was, I was playing the character, I was singing a song called Jubilation T-Cortin

Pong.

And I thought that I was having an asthma attack, which I ran off stage, took my inhaler, came

back, and it was not an asthma attack, it was a panic attack.

And I think I blanked it out.

I don't know how I got through the song.

But ever since then was singing, like, or just, I did a one-man show probably four

years ago that I was very nervous about.

And every night my therapist and I would just talk about, not every night we talked, but

I would remember to try to befriend the fear and the anxiety and kind of bring it with

me rather than trying to push it away, which was a huge gift.

But God, dude, the fact that you go before people and sing is like, oh my God, honestly,

I have the opposite.

So I, when I was young, I think I tried on lots of hats, like I go on stage and be like,

I'm going to act like this because I think that's cool, I'm going to crack jokes like

this.

And as I've gotten older and more comfortable, and actually just like more confident in

the work itself, like more confident that I believe that my songs are great.

Yeah.

And to sort of basically just go on stage, and I try and just be the exact same person

on stage, I would be off stage like I don't try not to cross in a big threshold or anything

like that.

And that helps me have a better time, and I think that that helps everyone else have a

better time.

And it helps me, it keeps me from being nervous.

And because when a performer on stage looks nervous and makes everyone in the audience nervous,

and that's not good.

Yes.

Yes, yes, yes.

So I feel like I've had moments where I'm like, no, it'd be fun to act.

But the idea of getting on stage and then like being in character on stage, that seems

terrifying to me.

It's like the opposite, like it's like the opposite thing.

I feel like I can, like when I gave this speech this past Saturday, I was very nervous

leading up to it, but it's because I wasn't hiding behind the character.

Right.

You know, I was myself in like, that's why talk shows, I mean, I've gotten a lot better

with talk shows.

When my first talk show, it was Letterman, and I was head-for-fied.

Of course.

And I remember doing Conan, and this was a long time ago, and right before the open

the curtains view, come out, I felt a panic at that coming on, and I was like, oh my gosh,

I have a choice.

Not now, yeah.

And I started talking to the guys behind the curtain, like I was like, what do you guys

do?

And I was just talking just to get my mind off myself.

But that was because I was myself.

I was just going out there by myself, but there's something about stage and a character.

It still makes me nervous, but it's different.

I find sometimes, because I crack a lot of jokes during my show, and some folks would

be like, oh, have you ever considered comedy, and I'm like, not a chance?

Because the only reason you think I'm funny is because I'm holding a guitar.

You know, it's like, if I was holding a mic in my hand, and you were there to laugh,

then you would, I wouldn't have the caliber, I wouldn't be there, but because I'm holding

a guitar, and it's in between, you know, melancholic music, it's sort of, it's like,

I use humor as like a reprieve, it's like a respite from the intensity.

And I think that, like, if you can leave a show, whether it's theater or music or whatever,

if you can laugh and cry, that's sort of like the best case scenario, you kind of feel

a little bit lighter in your molecules.

Is there a world though that you do stand up, but you carry your guitar, right?

And you just, because me and my friends don't end it with the banjo, I guess, yeah.

And you, you know, sing a little bit of it, but like, how fun is it to like give a joke

and then go dark and not dark, but heavy?

Yeah.

And it's like, what an experience for the audience.

Yeah.

But you don't have to call it stand up, or maybe just call it stand up concert.

Yeah.

I've done a stand up concert, Mindy.

Yeah.

A stonzer.

That's what you should call it as a stonzer.

A stonzer, yeah.

To trademark that.

I have done a handful of times live and in studio, the comedy bang, bang podcast.

I don't know if you're familiar with that, but Scott, I've done many times.

Yeah.

And I love it.

And so Scott brought me in, this was years ago, 2012, I think I had never heard of Scott,

never heard of the podcast, nothing.

Yeah.

And, and I show up with my guitar and Sarah Silverman and Nicole are there.

And I'm like, oh, yeah.

And I'm like, these are like famous people.

What am I doing, you know, and like, they're comedians?

And they go right into care.

Nobody explained anything to me that they were going to be in character.

Oh, no.

So they're in character.

And I'm like, what the fuck is happening?

And then Scott's like, okay, do anyone play a song?

And I'm like, here's my sad song.

And the funny thing is that in between my sad songs, I'd be sitting there and I'd be like,

okay, I need to participate because if I don't participate at all, that's weird.

Yeah.

But also, everyone around me is professionally funny.

If I try to be professionally funny, it's going to fall on its face.

So it's like a sport of like, if I can just get like a handful of,

like just a couple of comments in there, a couple of jokes,

then I've like sort of fulfilled my purpose.

But it is terrifying.

It's speaking of, you know, sharks, like not in a bad way.

But like, it feels when you're on stage,

it's like, I've done comedy bang bang live in front of an audience.

It's just like my heart is pounding.

And my abs are hurting from laughing so much at everyone else.

I know.

It is crazy.

It is.

Yeah, that kind of whole, I love that you said that because especially,

I'm not an improv actor, but I learned a lot from Matt Walsh on Veepe

because he started UCB and just the more that you just respond and act out of curiosity.

Yeah.

And because there were so many, I would say a decade of just trying to like be funny

and trying to interject.

And it sounds like on those, it shows you just kind of allowed yourself to, you know,

you got to let go.

You really got to let go.

Yeah.

And amazing though, when you were talking like, I did the same thing.

The whole dialogue you were having in your head before you spoke,

like, I can't do this.

I can't do this.

It's like, we just destroy ourselves.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

I mean, and the worst thing you can do is, whether it's about yourself or just like,

I find is like, I get jealous.

I get jealous of other bands and other acts that are sort of pot and buzzy or something like that.

And of course, that's, you know, me sort of sitting in that jealousy is,

is going to toxify my energy and make me even less likely to like,

it's always like being a jealous boyfriend or something.

Like if you're a jealous boyfriend, it makes your partner less interested in you

because it's such a disgusting trait, you know, to be like, overwhelmingly dead.

You know, I heard Chelsea Handlers talk about this.

I've always appreciated it when she was, and you've probably already heard this.

But I would so get down on myself about having jealousy and the, and our businesses just,

both for businesses, just an endless ladder.

Like, and you look up and there's a million steps above you and, yeah, it's an endless ladder.

And she just made the point, and I'd heard this before, but just the way she said it,

I really appreciate it, just talking about how when you have these jealous feelings,

it doesn't make you a jealous person.

They're just, they're just feelings that come and go.

Right.

And the more that you just kind of, it's almost like a cognitive behavioral thing where it's like,

yeah, there's that feeling of jealousy.

I'm not a jealous person.

There's, and then because I have friends that I get, they get a job and I'm like, oh, man,

I'm jealous of that.

But I'm still a great friend of them.

I'm not a jealous, I'm not a jealous person.

It's just a feeling or a thought.

Like just like a thought I have of like, I have a daughter and something horrible happening

to her and I get free.

That's again, just a thought, just a feeling, you know.

I mean, that's the therapy thing is so interesting about like separating,

like who's talking to who, you know, like you can turn your in your mind, like,

if you're talking to an emotion or you're, you're associating with an emotion, separating

yourself from it, I feel like when I was younger, I would have these deep trenches of sort of

valleys of depression or anxiety that would last sometimes months.

And as I got older, like they would just have shortened a little bit, like the wavelength

gets shorter and shorter and then almost to the point where I could, when I was in the

trench, I could cerebralize it and I'd be like, oh, man, okay, this is familiar.

Yeah, I've gotten out of here, I've gotten out of this trench a dozen times before.

Right.

You know, so even just like knowing it was like the, I didn't have the fear that it was going to,

I was going to keep fearing, you know, it was like it was, if you could sort of break the

cycle of worrying about the bad feeling, continuing, then you can sort of go, okay, well, it has

alleviated in the past, it will alleviate again. All I need to do is be patient.

Even in like accessing that sort of amount of objectivity helped me, it magically, it would go

away in a couple days, you know, instead of a couple months or whatever.

Yeah, and it's that whole thing of kind of, which again, this is a daily practice for me,

but the more I push it away, the bigger it gets.

Right. Of course.

You know, I mean, inside out was that, that movie is like brilliant because it's like just kind

of bringing them to the table rather than pushing them away.

Yeah.

I mean, I just never, I spent so much time fighting this stuff and it just made it worse.

Yeah. Yeah. Always. Whereas like, you know, they say like thoughts are like, you know,

bits of stuff floating down the stream.

Yeah.

You're the stream. You're not the, you're not the bits, you know, and just like to accept them,

like to accept the things and being like, oh, that's, that's an interesting thing.

Yeah. I do. I, I, I'm so annoying.

I talked to everyone about cold, cold water, cold, like cold plunging.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Very trendy.

But that's almost the same thing as like when I'm sitting in pure pain, you know, at all

of my extremities are just screaming. Yeah.

It is, you know, for the first minute, you're like, holy fuck, holy fuck, holy fuck.

And then there's this sort of like acceptance of like, I'm not dying.

I can get out anytime. No one's forcing me to stay here.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And you like fully accept it as a sensation on your skin.

And then it's sort of alleviates. And then you just go, oh, I can, I can live in the pain

and be fine. Yeah.

And then if you kind of take that to therapy, world or emotions, like, yeah, yeah.

You can live in the bad feelings and be fine.

You know, yeah, it's uncomfortable.

But you can, you can love there.

Can I ask you, do you do, is a, is the cold plunge outside or is it in your house?

I have like a little portable one that has in my band from my 40th birthday a few years ago.

They gave me like a little one I put on the back deck in the wintertime.

But that's a, you can't really, you know, to, can do that in Canada.

Yeah.

And then sometimes I do it in my bath.

And then sometimes I'll just go to like, actually, I'll sometimes I'll just swim in the ocean.

That's where we're talking over there.

So you, this is what I find fascinating.

Because I, I think I, my nervous, I get to the point of like, oh, I'm going to have a hard time.

Like if I, if I go from like, to that cold, my body's going to go.

Nope.

You're going to shut down.

But it's the, it's one thing like if you're in like a, a spa or something and you go into a cold plunge

because your body's comfortable.

Love that too.

Big spa guy.

But it's another thing where it's like you go into the cold and then again into the cold.

Right.

You know, so it's like starts when you go outside, right?

Yeah.

Well, yeah, like I'll go do the ocean here in Vancouver in December, January.

And it'll be six, six degrees, uh, such Celsius.

That would be like, um, about 40 degrees Fahrenheit.

Yeah.

And, um, it is tough.

Like if you don't have somewhere warm to go afterward, like I've done the thing where I just like

get really cold in the ocean and then I go and get in my car and kind of drive back to

home or whatever.

And then sometimes on the drive home, like your feet or your feet are a little numb, you know?

Like because it's really, really cold.

Yeah.

I do, I do enjoy going to a place where you can go hot cold.

Like if there's a sauna and the cold plunge.

Cause then you get as hot as possible and then get as cold as possible and kind of fluctuate

between and then and that's okay.

That's okay on the body.

Oh, it's so good.

It's so good.

Yeah.

There's like all this science about how it kicks in all of these basically anti-aging

principles because your body thinks it's dying.

So it's sort of like kicks in this sort of like don't die, don't die, don't die.

And it creates, I don't, I don't have the words for it.

But I listen to podcasts from like Davidson Claire and you know,

people who are kind of taking the longevity world that essentially giving like controlled

extremity, yeah, can help your immune system and your lymphatic system and your skin and,

you know, it's everything.

It's amazing.

Is Davidson Claire, is that the guy that's like Harvard, uh, long, like longevity world?

Yeah.

Is he the guy that kind of obviously wants to live much longer?

And he like got from his, his son's blood or something like that.

It's regular.

No, I think that there's like a billionaire.

There's like a tech billionaire who's obsessed with it.

Yeah.

That's a different guy.

I'm sure that that guy has Davidson Claire on retainer or something for advice.

Yeah, he also, because I think I saw an interview with that tech guy.

He looks AI to me and he also has a sheen of his face.

Like this kind of like glossy sheen.

I'm like, you, yeah, you're living longer, but you're turning into a robot.

It looks terrible.

Yeah, it's funny.

It's wild.

I, I heard this great quote recently that was like, you can look young and cool.

You can look old and cool, but you can't be old and look young.

Yeah.

Does that make sense?

Like you can age well and you can like, it's not even about looking young for your age.

It's about looking good for your age or whatever.

That's the truth.

Yeah.

My wife, she's a makeup artist and she always says like, you want to look, the goal is,

you want to look best for your age.

Yeah.

And you don't want to look like someone who's clamoring to be something they're not.

Right.

It's just like kind of depressing and pathetic.

Yeah.

And it's obvious to everybody sees it.

Yeah.

You know, it's like, my wife is so funny because she'll talk about how when someone's had

a lot of work done and she finds it sometimes insulting, where it's like, do you really think

I'm that dumb to think that that's your face?

Well, and you see it, right?

Like, I think, I think also people get lost in sort of like, you know, the bubble of

Hollywood or whatever.

Yeah.

And everyone around them is getting work done and it's pretty, it's like a topic of

conversation at dinner parties and stuff and it sort of seems more normal and more normal.

And then when you exit that world and then you go to the mall and Florida, everyone looks

at you and you're kind of like, I'm going, I don't want to name names because it's not

nice.

But there's a few very famous people who, who their faces have been ruined forever.

And oh, yeah.

And I love how real like Emma Thompson looks, you know, Olivia Coleman, like these women

who have male street, marrow street and they look, they look beautiful, they look beautiful

and real and Judy Dunn, my god.

Yeah.

Gorgeous, Helen Miran, you know, like, and it's not, here's the thing, it's not that they

haven't had touch ups, probably, I mean, they probably have, but I think that's something

about just kind of keeping the age alive, you know, and just self care, you know, I think

that a lot of it, you know, like whether it's exercise and train, a lot of it, like having

money and, you know, sort of, you know, access to, you know, like, she's amazing, amazing.

Yeah.

I think that like, and there's men, you know, I was funny, I was in years ago, I said

to my wife, you know, don't worry, I plan on getting better looking as I age.

And she, in her perfect feminist, sharp, amazing way without skipping a beat said, well,

as a man, you have that option.

Just like a bar, but the patriarchy, you know, tell it's really pathetic.

Yeah, but you know, the more gray, the more distinguished, you know, yeah, however,

I don't know if quirky sidekicks have a beard, I might need to shave this off of another

quirky role comes my way.

Well speaking of quirky role, I wanted to ask you, what is Beyonce like?

Oh, lovely, yeah.

She was, so I did, yeah, I did that commercial, that Verizon commercial with her.

And I remember I got the call, like in January, I think, two years ago, and they said, there's

a big, huge pop star that there's a commercial, you would play like almost like a Veepe dairy

to her.

Right.

And I said, great.

I mean, that sounds fun.

And then I found out was Beyonce.

And I was like, whoa, really?

Wow.

That's crazy.

And I knew her music, but I didn't know it as much as my daughter did.

Sure.

I just been to her concert.

And let me tell you right now, as a dad, you're always looking for cool points in your

career.

Of course.

You're always looking for something because everything else, she wasn't into a rest

it.

She wasn't in the Veepe.

You know, I'm sure having like, what's your blue thing is your dad growing up is pretty

swearing.

You know, it's like, she didn't really have a connection to that, but I finally had one.

I finally had someone cool and I couldn't say anything because I signed an NDA.

Yeah.

So it wasn't until she sought that.

Oh my God.

However, they did a little teasers beforehand of like me to lemon stand and stuff.

And she immediately got, she sent me a text of like, I just saw this.

Does this mean, and all I did was I texted back up an icon of an emoji of a B. And she

was like, what?

So I finally got some cool points.

Well, so that song, a small world connection, the song that she launched that day, Texas

hold them.

Yeah.

So my manager, Kieran, his partner in life, and not married, but basically wife, is a song

right in it named Lowell, who wrote that song.

Oh, wow.

And so she, with a couple of her friends, it was, she didn't write it alone.

Yeah.

But basically, the story is that like, you know, she did the same thing.

She wrote this song, it was like a silly country song.

Yeah.

And they got wind that, you know, Beyonce may or may not record it, but to hold the

song.

Yeah.

And then they all signed NDAs.

Wow.

And basically they heard almost nothing until the day it came out.

No.

Yeah.

Until the day it was released.

And it was like two years, two years later or something, the day it came out was when

they found out, you know, I think that there was some paperwork like, hey, sign this

paperwork, there were whatever, you know, agreeing on the royalty split or whatever.

But like, wow.

But it was like, there was, so there was like, there was a feeling that it could happen,

but even until the day it was released, they didn't know for sure.

Did they lose their minds?

Oh, of course.

Yeah.

Just absolutely everyone flipping out.

And because two, two of the writers were Canadian, three of the writers were Canadian.

And so the Canadian music press went wild and, you know, the Publisher's Association of

Canada, all that stuff, you know, it was like a big, big, big, big deal to have this

massive Beyonce hit written by a bunch of Canadian writers.

Oh my gosh.

So were they country artists themselves?

No.

Pop, just, you know, kind of pop writers.

And so were they given an assignment or was that just a song they had written?

Who's just a song they'd written?

Yeah.

It went.

Wow.

I mean, I don't know if I'm breaking some NDAs now.

Yeah.

You don't have to say anything.

Yeah.

You know, it was like, I think that they honestly were like, let's just write like a silly

country song or something, you know, like a fun, silly country song.

And at the time, like Beyonce, the idea of writing for Beyonce was out of the question

because, sure, Beyonce was not a country artist, you know?

Yeah.

Kind of crazy.

Dude, that song lit.

Fire.

I mean, lit up.

Crazy.

Yeah.

That's crazy.

Wow.

How exciting for them.

I, that, that day, probably they heard it.

They were just like, it was probably not a body experience.

Yeah.

But it was like also so much anticipation, like that it might happen, it might happen,

it might happen, it might happen.

And then it did.

And the fact that it happened during the Super Bowl.

Yeah.

Crazy.

Yeah.

It's also, it's funny to say that because it's like a whole anticipation element of our

business is can be so great and so toxic at the same time.

You know, getting your hopes up and the amount of rejection that for 30 years, I have experienced

you've experienced and your, your psyche is so careful about anticipation.

Yeah.

It's so careful about expectation.

But when it does pay off, it's euphoria.

Yeah.

And when it doesn't, it's just another roller coaster.

I've been talking to so many actors doing this, this podcast and like every one of them

has the kind of career that most actors in the world would just fall over themselves

to have.

You know, like they're just glorious careers, you know, Tony Hill is one, two Emmy awards,

you know, it's a, and yet the, the experience is basically the same in that almost every

single person says, I still worry about the next gig.

And also the best most fun part of this is actually just doing it, you know, like just

being in the work.

That's the most fun.

That is the most fun.

If, if you're working with good people, like when, and the older I get, the more I'm

a little more, if I do have any sense of control in terms of casting, the, the no-ass

whole role is, and I don't, and it doesn't matter how talented they are, like I don't,

I don't care.

No, it's not because ego entitlement, it just sucks creative energy out of a space.

Yeah.

I mean, much like, yeah, anyways, but it just, it sucks it out.

And so I, I don't have that control much and of course I'll take, you know, if, if, at

this point, I mean, I'm happy for gigs, but if I have that control, it just makes a huge

difference.

Yeah.

Okay.

I've got a little segment thing here.

Yeah.

I am going to play you a song that I will presume you've never heard before.

This is not me.

Oh, good.

Somebody else.

So this is not, I don't have to have the expectations that everybody knows the song.

No, no, no, no.

This is a song that I will presume you've never heard.

Okay.

And I'm going to play it without much introduction here and then we will talk about it

after.

Great.

Your bonafide reason to mark my face paint my finger it's a permanent season a sub

lead room where time gets frozen what can I change my shape to roll your wing off

my shoulders what can I change my shape for you I've always changed my shape that's

my skill that's my power what can I change my shape for you give yourself the conviction

that I want legal story it's a permanent fiction your truth is just a category I can't

change my shape to roll your wing off my shoulders why can't I change my shape for

you I've always changed my shape that's my skill that's my power why can't I change

my shape for you it's a slow decline we're drawn into it's a word defined until the

meaning falls right through it's a curve to mark the way we grew you see the end of

how we used to be and I can see it too I can't change my shape to roll your wing off

my shoulders why can't I change my shape for you I've always changed my shape that's my

skill that's my power why can't I change my shape for you why can't I change my shape for you

man that's really powerful you like that I mean that that should be like the

codependent theme song for the for the world yeah that should go into every codependent support group

across the world I love that song it's so good it's the go ahead no no no please just that chorus

alone of I'm a master of changing my shape which is I've I've dealt with a lot of I grew up in a

family addiction and so I know how to change the shape to kind of keep the piece and yet at the

same time my person that I grew up with who it was the addict I can't change my shape to not

let it affect me as much right you know that's pretty pretty intense yeah so that's a that's a

Canadian artist named Sam tutor TUDOR song is also obviously called change my shape it's amazing

to me how many incredibly talented musicians are out there doing all the right things you know

yeah making the content booking the tours total DIY you know yeah and living in relative obscurity

yeah Sam someone I've known for a number of years he's such a sweetheart and he's working

his tail off and he's making these beautiful records completely all self-produced and so part

of the joy of of this process is sharing yeah things things that I think are great yeah and also I

kind of realized halfway through that song you know part of it is just I spend very little time

just sitting and listening to music the way I did when I was young yeah and you know how much more

nuance you you hear when you're actually listening it's not just in the car while you're driving

or you know whatever yeah doing dishes etc that is what I miss about LA actually because we were in

our car so much because of traffic yeah my car kind of became a sacred space of listening to music

yeah and even though Spotify has really kind of completely changed the game it has it mixes stuff

to where I listen to new songs a lot and I would just sit and just listen to music and now down

here it's I don't have that kind of traffic so I don't like you're right I don't listen to as much

I don't just sit and listen to much yeah yeah I mean when I was a kid I did a lot of just like

literally headphones on you know sitting beside the CD player or the record player and reading the

line of notes and do you know you're talking about this Sam who is so gifted that song is so beautiful

just the grind of just doing yourself and getting your work out there and it's a real bummer how

like you think of like I think of LA at least in my business it's like you the term success

is like always relates to box office always relates to streaming popularity or whatever

but when I was in New York art people would have galleries its artists was just doing art and would

give themselves over to the piece to show it to put it up on a stage or to put it in a gallery

and then that was that was the end goal and in just today's commerce I mean me included

you get lost in that equation it's really hard not to it's really hard not to because those

markers that you're talking about box office those are tangible quantifiable you know the finite

things yeah and the work itself is so infinite and ephemeral and yeah you know we're kind of like

always it's like we're the protagonist are in our own films and we're always looking for evidence

that we're important and doing a good job yeah yeah and these things that are tactile like oh this

person got a festival gig I wish I could play the festival or this person got this role in this

person's box office numbers et cetera and so it's hard not to take those in as markers of failure

or success or what have you of course and we're all hungry for like not even attention but just

feedback yeah you know just especially comics I mean comedy act oh my god it's just like

laughter laughter is like yeah I remember on VEEP we didn't we didn't have an audience and we would

hear like a crew member like chuckle or like the camera would shake and be like oh yeah it was like

just these hungry animals yeah just to get some kind of reaction you know and there's I think

it might even be in like the first episode or something where she asks you to hold a really hot

mug yeah you know you're bringing her a hot mug and you're about to give it to her and she's like oh wait

and then you're holding it just oh that's that tension I love playing but I don't like watching yeah

right yeah of course yeah well you you kind of had touched on it a little bit but I do ask

everybody this question yeah what do you think is the artist's job oh what do I think is the artist

job that's a really really do that's a really heavy question for my I think I can only speak from

a place of what I think is in terms of like art things that I've done that are the closest to me

and it's not arrested and it's not deep because those I loved those jobs but I was kind of doing

somebody else's work sure and I was happy to bring it to life but it was somebody else's there are

two pieces in my life one is called this cartoon called archibald's next big thing yes and then

there's this movie I just released called sketch and it took us eight years to get released this

movie and I the cartoon first came out of my own story of being arrested development it not

satisfy me the way I thought it was gonna satisfy and then the whole idea of I just wasn't present

for my life and I was giving so much weight to this big thing in my life sure and the sketch was

talking a lot about a little kid who had really big emotions and didn't know how to express them

to sort of drawing and I think those are that's what I can speak from the place of art that I put

out into the world at least for me and I think there's a lot of like I get such joy when it's like

you're putting a mirror up to an experience like for a kid to see that and go I was that kid with

big emotions you know I maybe because when I have those big emotions I was like am I a freak

right am I gonna lose my mind what's happening to me and just to see that on a story and go oh

because in the movie she draws these pictures about a bully and they're pretty dark and she goes

with their her dad takes her to a therapist I play the dad and the therapist asked her if she wanted

to do these things about this bully she drew and she was honest and she said yes and the

therapist and why I think it's a good idea you drew them rather than did them and just her

activating her own feelings was so powerful and also like like we'll get inside out you know inside

out like on screen big emotions you know and so and with Archibald this little chicken became my

mentor for four years because this chicken saw the best in everyone the best in everything

he was so present and I just love that kind of I guess like those little nudges of reminders

in an artistic way and to make people feel it speaking of feeling seen somebody feelings and

actually even the parent in sketch who I played you know I as a dad I the last thing I wanted to

see my daughter was to face challenges to go through pain it's just the worst there's a there's a

term called snowplow parenting where you just want to remove all the challenges for your kids life

as you just don't want them to deal with stuff yeah and I get that I get that and for a parent to

see that and go oh maybe I'm not the only one that does that it's so like it's not an equation

it's like this plus this equals this it's like just feeling seen is like that I think is to me

that would be mine that's great it's almost like representation you know it's like yeah people say

it's important for young black kids to see yeah prominent black people in society or you know

these and it's it's almost like yeah like it's it's important to see your inner world reflected

in the outer world to make you feel like yeah I'm not on the outside yeah I'm not in them I'm not

the person that I mean that's like when I was talking to this graduation class this past

Saturday one thing I said is when I was in your position I thought I was the only person who

didn't had zero clue was gonna happen next and I said just so you know everybody on the stage

right now everybody in the audience also has no idea what's gonna happen yeah yeah you know we

are all in the same boat remember in high school just being riddled with anxiety yeah and part of

it was that it seemed like literally 100% of the other kids had it all figured out and I was

the only one who was like yes struggling you know yeah and yes yeah part of just getting older

and kind of realizing that everyone was also also struggling the whole time and some people were

probably struggling far more than I was you know that was another thing a lot of people were

struggling people far more than yeah totally yeah totally I think of it like smoke signals like

you send up your smoke signal and you're like yeah I've talked about this a lot but like like

this is how I feel and then someone else sees your smoke signal like a million miles away

and they're like whoa me too yeah and then cosmically your both less alone because you've

less alone and I'm telling you I mean your music and I'm sure you've heard this over it it really

is like a warm hug oh like it's just you just sit there and you're like oh someone's gift

warm because nothing nothing is more I haven't read a friend once years ago in New York I was going

to really tough time and he placed his hand on my chest and it was just like oh there's

something about your music and just music it's just so like it's gonna be okay it's really really

nice basically nothing nice so you could say to me I I feel like the particularly in recent years

as if yeah I'm a dad and I you know but the world yeah I I feel like the the message is kind of like

everything is screwed but I love you you know and it's like I just I want I know how other people's

art can be that warm blanket for myself yeah and I it is such a deep fruition to think that my work

could be creative for somebody else and it is even though you again back to like however that

equation the jealousy and compare all comparison I mean this oh my god it's like I've the social

media just I had to kind of take a break from it because I'll compare and despair really kicks in

sure yeah and then we just sit back and you go no there's people being touched you know people

are being seen and you have to remember and I was like your worst day in your real world Tony

Hill world you know and you're having a shit time at the yeah in line somewhere if you're trying

to return something or you know what I just like yeah it could be the very moment someone

experiences some incredible respite from something that you created yeah you know like that I've

actually that's what you said that I was writing them my journal actually maybe yesterday because

I've done this thing where I've started writing journal journal writing for the best three years

and I look back on the day the same day the previous years that I'm writing and just to kind of see

kind of things maybe whether maybe what god is telling me or something like that sure and I always

have a lot of guilt about being about being recognized or something it's just it feels very I don't

know how to receive it sometimes or even when I try to look for it's just feels narcissistic yeah and

and somebody like you just said compared I think there's my therapist talked about how you can

when someone does see you or has a remnant of your work or thinks about it it wakes something up

and them and it brings light to maybe whatever they're going through of course you know and when

you get it back on them rather than me like oh god I'm like you know this feels gross yeah but no

it's maybe it's a gift to somebody to like bring a reminder of that totally you reminded me a

friend who was telling they were in some hotel bar and there was there was a convention in

in town there's a bunch of Comic-Con kind of you know yeah folks in the bar and they were

taking a picture of a there was an art piece of a woman drinking lemon curd through a straw and my

friend was taking a picture and she said out loud I'm just such a big fan I have to take a picture

and she was talking about lemon curd because she's a big fan of lemon curd and one of the kind of

semi-famous Comic-Con folks was walking behind her like tour from the bathroom right there and

was sort of like oh you know kind of thought they were talking about them and I created this

there's a there's a father John Misty line about you know there's all the people pretending they

don't see the actor and the actor wishing that they would just so good I thought it was so true

I remember being in the grocery store once and this lady it was the cashier asked um can I have

your autograph and I said oh that's interesting because people usually ask for pictures and she goes

no for the credit card yeah just sign at the bottom sir put the fries in the bag humble pie

chew it up um well uh I don't want to take too much more of your time here but I do have a question

do you have any advice uh this could be advice for young artists this could be just a personal

practice advice for being a human anything something that's helped you yeah I mean

hmm I mean there's a couple of things I always say because they're so true to my own life one

is what I kind of mentioned before about that the value you have now is the same value you're

going to have after you whatever success you think is going to happen amazing um and also just

along the lines of Archibald because Archibald was so important to me um is this if you're not

practicing contentment contentment where you are you're not capable content when you get what you

want yeah and they're just kind of waking yours like and it's the whole being present is such a

hot trend right now but my therapist would say like you have to wake yourself up a hundred times

of data where you are and I just don't just looking around me like talking to you is my big thing

right now my big thing is not coming my big thing is right here yeah and trying to get away from

the trends trying to get away from that but it's the truth of that I've like really you know activating

the five senses like what am I smelling now what am I seeing touching just grounding yourself

because whatever you think is coming it's that contentment is not going to come then if it's not

going to be happening at all now yeah that's and that is that is not like the trigger that all the

sudden makes the contentment happen that the contentment is like in it's a decision that you have to

make every moment every day yes I've often said that like marriage is like you have to choose to choose

them you know yeah and it's like every day it's like you you're have your you're in two cars

and your alignment is such that you will divert away from each other if you don't constantly correct

toward each other yeah yeah to choose to keep choosing to choose yeah yeah yeah and it's it but it's

a practice too yeah that's the thing like it's not it's not it's not an apples to oranges thing

totally it is it's a practice I've been practicing for decades which is not easy yeah I had

Reign Wilson on the show and he talks a lot about how when he was you know the Dwight in the office

another incredible me mobile yeah giftable character how um you know in the heat of it

he was getting through on talk shows and he was getting to you know get offers for cool things

and he was miserable because he thought it he should be perceived as feeling something else

something else or he wanted a larger thing or or what have you and yeah you know he's also

someone with a great deal of faith and yeah but and also somebody who is typecast after that role

you know I had a had a hard time kind of moving on from it for a little bit yeah it's tough

I mean and I get it like that kind of an impact that a character or a character's plan someone

it's tough people don't want to see you in another role because it kind of breaks the frame of it

and I get it because it's it was so joyful and impactful for someone yeah absolutely yeah

Tony you're an absolute delight I oh same I just um I was telling you know I was just

speaking with my wife about this coming up and I just I love what you bring

and I've never seen you on a show or in any movie um other I we didn't talk about it but

years ago on a plane I watched the movie happy thank you more please oh yeah yeah by Josh

and I just like cried and you were so beautiful in that movie yeah my kids love the

mysterious Benedict society it's like if Wes Anderson made a kids show it's just amazing and it's

back you can watch it on I think they'll it's called like Wonder Project or something like that you

can watch it because they took it off Disney plus but I think it's back oh that's great I think

they it was on Netflix is it no longer a Netflix they yes maybe it moves it wasn't on episodes

and Disney plus and then they kind of washed it for some reason and then wonder which is on Amazon

brought it back okay something like that but it's it's such a beautiful it made it such a beautiful

job with that yeah and yeah Christian Christian Christian Charles Christian oh she's so good

she's the best who I also loved on another comedy that was taken off the air way too soon was last

man on earth last man on earth I know loved it I know ahead of its time man super ahead of its time

and just like what a tragedy to lose that that show yeah it just got better and better and better

as it went it really damn well forte I think I think you are just one of the most special actors I

know in the world and I love you and everything and I am so thankful that you could be on this

this chat with me well if I ever get a I forgot you were in Vancouver so if I ever get a job

in Vancouver I had now a friend come on up man yeah we got they we got the ocean I'll take

you to the ocean we can go do a clip and I'll get the I'm I'm serious about that but like you're

gonna see me cry but then you will accept it and you cry panic attack cry and then I'll

and then you will laugh and you will have had a great experience yeah what a what an absolute

I was so nice to see you face to face to chat we've deemed for a while yeah and I hope now

we're text buddy now we're text wait I hope we get to cross paths in the real world before before

too long there it is Tony Hill man I was buzzing all day after that chat it's such a great time

what a sweetheart what a talented guy so nice to kind of see behind the veil a little bit when

it comes to some of these shows that I just love dearly love what he had to say about the

importance of no assholes when it comes to your work and and what great wisdom about you know if

you can't practice contentment now you won't be content when you get the things that you want

that the practice of contentment is inner it has nothing to do with these external qualifiers that

tell us that we're doing a good job or not I also love that you know as a really nervous and really

deeply feeling kid that he feels like the artist's job is to represent that and normalize that

almost just to help other people feel less alone in their struggle that's really beautiful

it's broadcast is produced by myself Dan Mangan with help from Deirdre Wondell

blood Chaluka and Chloe Bennett if you've enjoyed this chat please please please share it with a

friend whatever platform you happen to be listening on rate this podcast give it a review

help it algorithmically find its way to more people that would be amazing all of that stuff

really really helps and lastly join my friggin newsletter Dan Mangan dot com d-a-n-m-a-n-g-a-n thank you so

much have a great day

Tony Hale - "Bring Two Crutches"

About this Episode

Hosts & Guests

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