Trainer Talk Classsic presented by Fasig-Tipton - John Shirreffs

22 days ago, the sport of thoroughbred racing unexpectedly lost one of its most well-respected

and well-liked trainers, when John Sheariffs passed away on February 12th at his home at the age of 80.

On today's show, we remember John, the trainer, but we also give you a glimpse of what made John

so special as a person. He will forever be remembered for pulling off a 50-to-1 shocker with Jocomo

in the 2005 Kentucky Derby, and for guiding the great Zenyatta through her brilliant career,

which included a victory over the sport's best male horses in the 2009 Breeders Cup Classic.

In total, John settled 596 winners, leading to his nomination to the thoroughbred racing hall of

fame. To celebrate his life in his career, I want to bring you a special replay of my hour-long

visit with John prior to the 2023 Kentucky Derby. This edition of Trainer Talk aired here on HRN

May 3rd of that year.

With number 1,000 for the great Trevor McCarthy, here's 2,000 for Nick Zito.

Steve Aspison is now North America's all-time leading trainer.

Hello again, everyone. Welcome to Trainer Talk, presented by Faising Tipton. This, of course,

is the show Trainers Listen to, and you are listening right here on the horse racing radio network.

Mike Penna, Baron of the Backstretch. Once again, happy to have you with me for the next hour on

Sirius216XM204, streaming worldwide at horsereasingradio.net and available anywhere you get your podcasts

each and every week. Well, my guest on today's show obtained his first trainer's license in 1978,

but it wasn't until 1994 that he would truly embark upon a career which has led him to a

Hall of Fame nomination here in 2023. Over the years, he has settled more than 3,300 horses,

winning 566 times with over $54 million in purse earnings. In 2005, he made his very first trip

to the Kentucky Derby and he returned home to Southern California with a garland of roses

and a 50-to-1 upset courtesy of a fast-closing cult named Jocomo, who ran down closing argument

in the final strides. This year, the 77-year-old native of Fort Leavenworth, Kansas,

returns to Louisville to saddle his six starter in the run for the roses. And there are a couple

of similarities, at least in terms of past performances, to the horse he brought to the Derby 18 years ago.

Please join me in welcoming trainer John Sheariffs to Trainer Talk, presented by Faising Tipton.

John, appreciate the time.

Yeah, welcome back to the Derby. Listen, we're going to talk about

Skinner, your Derby horse, who is in the Derby this year and we're going to talk about

some of your top memories and moments and a little horse by name of Zenyatta. I'm sure we'll

come up at some point over the next hour or so, but first of all, John, you are a veteran. You

served in the US Marine Corps. You were deployed to Vietnam, so a Vietnam veteran. And I always

like to start these shows whenever I have a veteran on the program by saying thank you very much

for your service to our country. Thanks, Mike. I really appreciate that.

No, it certainly means a lot. And we'll talk about the early days of John Sheariffs, but let's

start John with Skinner and talk about Skinner. I got a chance to see him on the race track this

morning. He went out after the designated time for the Oaks and Derby horses. He looked really,

really nice. He's a solid horse. He's a tank. He's very strong. He's built solid like we're

thinking linebacker with him. Yeah, he's a son of Kirlin and we were talking about this earlier

that before we started the show, this is the very first Kirlin you've had the chance to train.

You have to be thrilled. Oh, I am. You know, I really didn't. The Ogo ran against Kirlin and the

and the breeders cup was at Mama. So I was kind of busy there. So I didn't get a really good

chance to see him, but I'm just surprised how solid they are and how they take the training

and developing. So after having Skinner, we went to the Martselle. We bought a Kirlin

silly. It's just like him. He has a big shoulder, a big hind end, broadened the beam. I mean,

there's some really great qualities. Yeah, I mentioned in my open to the program that there are

some similarities in the past performances to Jocamo and Skinner. Jocamo ran in the San Felipe,

Randwell didn't win. Rand in the Santa Anita Derby, Randwell didn't win and then came into the

to the Kentucky Derby and you know beats everybody that day. So tell me a little bit more about

this pattern that Skinner is on. Well, yeah, you're exactly right when when Jocamo is running in

those races. After the race, we were a little discouraged about it and then after Mike got off the

horse, we're walking back to the grandstand and he goes, oh John, don't worry, don't worry, he's

coming. He's coming along really good. He's better and better all the time. And I as Skinner was

going through his prep, I kept thinking about what Mike said about Jocamo and when you see them

improve a little bit from race to race, you know, that I think it's a great indication that

they're getting they're improving and they're getting better and they maybe they have a chance to

pull it off. What are some of the key things that you're seeing from Skinner, the key improvements

that you're seeing weekend and week out that lead you to believe that he can be a factor in the

Kentucky Derby? Well, okay, so in the beginning when he was running and especially in the American

Faroe, you got a lot of dirt in the face and he just got discouraged and just, you know,

so that threw in the towel that afternoon. And since then, he's like turned the page like, okay,

that was a that was a bad game. We're done with that. He's turned the page and he's moved forward.

And now dirt in the face really doesn't bother him. So I think that was a that was a big

step for Skinner to make to say, okay, I can handle this now. And the other thing was when he was

running before at a tendency not to get his head down. So it's difficult for the rider

to take a nice hold of the horse with his head in a good position. So now he's racing,

he's reaching and he's breathing. All these things are happening at the same time. They're all

in sync. And I think that was really not a big step for Skinner because now he's going down

the backside and he's relaxed and he's moving really well. So those are those are little things

that as he develops to see him improve, improve, improve and get better at it.

I thought his Santa needed Derby effort was fantastic and I was a little shocked that he didn't

end up winning that race. What did you take away from that performance? Well, as I agree with you,

100 percent he made such a big move around the turn. He was catching and going by a horse

was really fast. And I don't know that when he turned and he was really wide, if that just kind

of took a little bit of the air out of the moon, I'm not really sure because I agree he was moving

really well. So since that race we decided that we really need to concentrate in his workouts

on him finishing and he's just finished a little bit better. So those last two workouts at

workouts have been about finishing well and doing his last eighths better than any eighths

done during the workouts. And the last two have been really good. He's really finished well

and gouted out well. So I think that maybe if we're lucky he gets the split horses somewhere

and doesn't get out on that elbow so to speak and that him having to run to the wire in his

workouts will help him in the finish here. I mentioned that he was out later than the other

Oaks and Derby horses which go from 730 to about 745, 750-ish every morning. Talk about that decision,

John, to bring him out a little bit later. Well that decision was really based on that he got in

really late that night before it got in at 930 and so when all the horses are out there for the

Oaks and Derby they try to separate themselves a little bit but they're all going by pretty good

clip right maybe 16, 17 to the eighths. So if you get in that flow then because this was

going to be his first day I didn't want him to gout too strongly that day so I thought you know

we don't want to get in that horses are going by and soon as he relaxes and then the other

horse goes by and then another horse goes by and I said let's just take him late when the track

isn't too crowded. And first day it worked beautifully you know 9 o'clock we left and I know

it's hardly anybody on the track. You got to walk down a ways in jog a ways and gout a little bit

and jog a little bit and stand in all those things so and another key factor was that I had to

I'm fortunately Yostol has a writer great writer Donnie that I could use in the morning here

because the writer that he had in California couldn't come to Kentucky Amy has a you know

pony business in the afternoon everything so she couldn't come so we're adding another new

factor with the writer so I didn't want to have him have not a great opportunity to feel the

horse out. Talking with trainer John Sheriffs here on trainer talk presented by phasic tipton

John one of the great traditions in sports in my opinion anyways happens at the master's golf

tournament every year when the when the defending champion returns along with the other master's

winners and they're all wearing their green jackets and they have a champions dinner there is

no such champions dinner there is a trainers dinner which takes place on Tuesday evening before

the derby which a lot of trainers attend but it's it's not a Churchill downs event. You know I've

always thought that has to be such a great moment for the the past winners to return so when a

trainer who's won the Kentucky Derby comes back to Churchill downs what's that experience like?

you know it's it's it's it's really fantastic I mean that people come in when you come in here and

they they know you and they especially know you because you won the derby so that's like

your part of the derby crew so it's you know it's just really nice it's it's a it's a great achievement

it's a wonderful feeling and something I think all trainers jockey's owners aspire to and

and then I think you have to be a little bit blessed and before it happened you saw with jacamo we had a

horrific speed duel going on up front right I think they went the first half 45 and changed

there's something like that so the race really set up for for him and and it's closing so

you know we're very fortunate I love to tell the story it would like Smith to have the race of John

going into the first turn I was going to get stuck wide and I didn't know if I could get over

because I was afraid I was going to clip you the horse in front of me so I just closed my eyes

and then swung the horse over and we cleared him and I opened my eyes and then from the overhead

you could see jacamo right every every time there's a horse in front of them they kind of move

down the way or he could move through the inside and he had a clear path the whole way so it's just

you know we're blessed that's I think we're very blessed that afternoon well I'm glad you brought

that up John I'm going to take on a little trip down memory lane back to that afternoon on the first

Saturday in May here's the way it sounded as jacamo came down the stretch as they wind around the

turn to the top of the stretch in berby number one thirty one it's high fly Bellamy Road attacking

second buzzards Bay is on the far outside a straightaway in the stretch drive and here comes

the fleet Alex through between horses of fleet Alex sit on the far outside taking the lead now

in a deep stretch taking the lead of fleet Alex on the outside and here comes closing argument

closing argument of fleet Alex far outside a lead run from jacamo jacamo surging a fleet

Alex closing argument jacamo in the final strides to end derby one thirty one

now that was the late loot cryposh with the call jacamo storming home running them all down

John is you're listening to that call what's going through your mind oh my goodness it was exciting

to listen to it oh my goodness you know and so we're standing Frankie is exercise right we're

standing at the tunnel right so they go by we're looked oh maybe it'll be third and then I

cursed my vision and probably wasn't that great anyway so Frankie starts jumping up and down

eight awesome one we won what Frankie what we won oh no it was oh my god what an afternoon

incredible and and John I'll tell you my story related to jacamo I will never forget that day

I was it was before I I had gotten into doing the radio stuff here at the Kentucky Derby and

I was sitting along the rail about mid stretch it right along the rail and I was wearing my holy

bull ball cap because holy bull is my all-time favorite horse and I had given jacamo out to several

people is my long shot pick John I I bet him in all different kinds of combinations I didn't

bet a nickel to win on him and I didn't catch closing argument in second I was sick completely sick

well you know what you know when you talk about shape so here's Mike Smith right who rode holy

bull in the Derby as the favorite and they just didn't work out that day so now he's on the

son of holy bull and he wins the Derby so you know things happen in the scariest ways at times

yeah incredible 18 years later how much different are you as a trainer and maybe

your approach to getting a horse ready for the Derby as opposed to when you were here for the

first time 18 years ago oh well that's a good question so I think for me anyway for me I think

training is is a learning and evolution from year to year and as you become older they're not

physically as strong as you were earlier so no longer are you able to wrestle with the horses

and and be strong with them in some regards so suddenly you're you're analyzing them a little

bit more and you're maybe basing decisions on experience that you've had prior to whatever decision

you're trying to make about a horse so at some point it's um it's your experience and your years

with a horse and your connection to the horse I think that is where they're for me is where the

great pleasure comes in and training and as was I get older I I feel like I'm listening to them

a little bit more with with jacamo jacamo was just a great horse because you did everything ever

asked of him he was calm he had a beautiful stride nothing bothered him so it was it was really

he took us on that ride really he he just took us to the derby and then he pulled it off so

it's a little different now Skinner Skinner is coming into this and to this derby and so I'm thinking

about why other derby's I'm saying okay for Skinner he needs to finish so everything we have to

do with him is about finishing the race not the first part of the race because the first part

of the race is the jockey right the jockey's got to get an alligator he's got it like Mike

Daddy's got to find some way to save ground somewhere so it's going to be jockey skill but when

they when they turn down the lane and they get past the court of all and that wire is way down

there Skinner is going to have to call on everything he's got and you know he's got some great

parents and we hope he is conditioned well enough and and then he gets to run for the roses

you know I want to go back to something you you mentioned with horses you know now you're

at a point where you can't use your physical strengths necessarily to deal with horses you have

to kind of play the mental game a little bit more and I've often heard you talk about

building the bond between horses and humans what exactly does that mean and how is it accomplished

well you know that's so my friend Colin asked it when I when I was scabbled next to him he's a

very interesting trainer and so we're we're doing things with horses you know and

and he was he was telling you about an old cowboy named Tom Dorrance and I said John you should

read the book I said yeah thanks I'm going to do it so suddenly you're reading about where a horse

is putting his feet and so that opens up a little window for me and I said okay so let's watch

what a horse is doing with his feet where how they're standing how they're moving and so I tell

my writers you know when you're writing I've listened to trying to feel where they're doing with

their feet that'll give you the indication of where they are mentally so that was really you know

interesting and so Carl was all about listening to his horses and trying finding finding ways

that if he couldn't directly communicate with him he could influence how they're feeling or thinking

so that's that's kind of what I look for some way to put a positive spin on the day or what they're

thinking about or are hoping that maybe they'll look forward to something you know maybe maybe

when they see that person oh kind of yeah I look forward to seeing you yeah you know most people

will take Carl NASCAR and look at him and they'll they'll say you know he is a not just a great

horse trainer but he is a great horseman and there is a little bit of a difference there right John

between being a a true horseman and simply just a horse trainer it isn't there kind of a

differentiation to be made there somewhere I think so so um I think there are great conditioners

right yeah some great condition there is of horses or races but you know that that's one aspect of

it and the other aspect is like you say it being a horseman so I think being a horseman is it's

a totality not just a conditioning thing it's a totality it's snowing the horses snowing the

horse knowing what he wants what he doesn't want I you know I think I think when I can't know where

I read this but I but I think this sums up part of what's going on with the horses the horse

wants to be safe right so it he can't communicate safety to the people around him but he wants to

be safe so he tries to create an environment which he will be safe in so I think that's that's

number one for trainers to understand that the horse needs to feel safe when he's in install that's

his home right nobody violates his home nothing happens in his stall that's his safe place make

sure it's always in safe place then when you ask a horse to do something if you can't do it

maybe he doesn't feel safe about it right maybe he's afraid he's a little timid so you know

put him away try tomorrow you know tomorrow he might feel better about it don't don't create

a situation where that horse has no place to go except against you or against whatever you're

trying to do always give a horse a place to go it's very important that they can they feel they

need to escape they can't escape you know that story you just told reminded me of something I had read

about the early days of John Sheriff's I think it was in a TDN article a couple of years ago and

you were talking about when you first started working around horses at Loma Rika horse ranch in

northern California and there was a horse that was a bit unruly and of course at the time you

figured you could physically man handle the horse and you got a little frustrated and you learned

I think you called it a time out for horses and a time out for the humans that were working with them

oh yeah no this is this this was a great lesson and Henry Freight is my mentor at Loma Rika

he was a superb horseman anyway so he was about maybe five one Portuguese man and he always said

to me John you know I've had 35 years of experience so I'll go up a block so anyway I just

yearling I'm trying to put the bride a lot of could not get the bride a lot of I mean it wasn't

you know just just broke the hole or whatever and so I put a lip stain on him I eared him I put

a twitch on him finally I said well this is it I got on his back when he rared up I pushed on his head

to get him to stop rearing up so I get the bridal on nothing would work we were in the battle royale

right so I said okay this is it I got off the horse I walked up to Henry I said Henry let me see

what your 35 years of experience can do to put the bridal on that son of a gun he looked at me right

he looked at me he didn't smile he didn't brown he didn't do anything this is John just go back

there quit all that messing around and put the bridal on the horse oh I couldn't believe he said that

to me but I had the utmost respect for the man right so I emptied my mind everything I thought about

that horse what I was doing before or how frustrated I was emptied all out of my head walked in the

stall lifted up the fight up for my arm over his neck or his head and he stood there I put the

bridal on no problem whatsoever that was that was that was my big lesson there you know everybody

needs a timeout don't don't make it a pitch battle yeah Henry was from what I understand legendary

in his horsemanship skills what what else did Henry teach you that served you well throughout your

training career oh all right so you know we we've got all these yearlings two year olds were

breaking and it's getting close to lunchtime and I'm thinking you know I'm a young guy right I'm

thinking hey you know we if we hurry just a little bit we can get this other set out before lunch

and then then we're almost done so I say hey Henry why don't we just walk because then we had

to walk around the train and track three times before we could take him back into the barn because

we that's how we told the horse to get up there so Henry you know if we go back now we can get

another one we don't know around once Henry looked at me hey John we treat each horse individually

and we don't shortchange any horse okay Henry so you know he was right all the time he was right

uh tremendous john sheriff's my special guest here on trainer talk presented by phased

equipped and john I had mentioned that you first obtained your trainers license in 1978 but it

really wasn't until the early to mid 90s that you you kind of embarked on this career that's

taken you to the you know the Hall of Fame nomination here in 2023 um what was going on between 78

and 94 that kind of led you to ease into this a little bit if you will okay so uh

I was working at lower rig and after breeding season uh you know after horses or broke

breeding season all that kind of stuff it wasn't a lot to do and during the summer so Henry had a

horse and he said he told me john if you want to take this horse to the fares you know that's

good I'll give you uh think four hundred dollars a month and you can uh when pee we paint or

hit the fares and then come back in the foam or break the horses so that's what I did in 78 you know

many of those years there I just took Henry had one horse and other year we had two horses and

then back to one horses and then to none horses right so uh so I either when when I had a horse

for Henry I go to the fares if I wasn't I wasn't able to do that and they didn't need me anymore

so then I worked at other other farms around southern california and uh so I was kind of

hitting this for a long time what was the key to finally getting the john sheriff's career off

the ground there in 1994 oh boy so so when I was at the fares and uh working with Henry's horses

I I decided that you know I never went to college so I was never going to be as smart as a vet so

I just said okay that's they can take care of that but I was always this interested in chewing

so I used to hang around the barn and watch the shewer do his work and watch them all that kind of

stuff so one day um I'm working at uh lake view cerebro farm and and uh him and on your hand in

any way and um the ranch manager says you know we're gonna have to put this horse up in the

paddock I think it was a yearling we're gonna have to put him down because he's uh he's lame and

and there's nothing we can do about it I said well do you mind if I go down and look at it

said no that's okay so I went down to look at it and uh here's the african sky yearling

and he had one heel maybe a half a inch higher than the other heel

and and I said no I think if if this horse is trimmed properly he'll be okay and um

that horse will belong to a gentleman by the name of Eddie Neham anyway so a trimmer is okay if you

want to uh Eddie Grayson that's racetrack and um along a few years later Eddie Neham um it's

gonna start a stable with Marshall Navy 505 farms and Eddie says ask me if I wanted to go to work for him

until he gets his trainer's license because I had my trainer's license and I said yeah

I'd be great I'd love to well lucky for me Eddie couldn't get his trainer's license

I became the trainer so that was my big break my big break was actually knowing something about

a foot that made this person come back and ask me to go to work well unbelievable what a great story

John Sharers is my guest here on trainer talk presented by phasic tipton we are halfway through

John stay with me we're gonna get to a short commercial break we'll come back and we'll talk more

about some of the moments that you'll never forget in your career including a horse by name of

Zenyatta that's next here on trainer talk presented by phasic tipton take advantage of North

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by phasic tipton on the horse racing radio network

on summer bird in the red cat brothers and yada's company outside

then yada's coming flying on the branch that side geopongey on the inside

summer bird is right there this is unbelievable Zenyatta water performance one will never forget

looked impossible but it is Zenyatta still unbeaten under my smith geopongey second summer

bird and richards kid what a dramatic performance one of the most sensational ever Zenyatta when

is the greatest cop classic Trevor Dement with one of the calls that is going to go down in history

is one of the greatest of all time in thoroughbred racing certainly one of the most memorable

Zenyatta winning the breeders cop classic in 2009 of course we had the privilege of being there

to broadcast the race here on the horse racing radio network and that moment is embedded in my mind

I will never forget the sounds and the sights and oh my goodness just so much going on there and

I'm visiting with Zenyatta's trainer John Cheris here on the horse racing radio network trainer

talk presented by phasic tipton I hope you've enjoyed the first half of the show if you did miss

any portion of the first half you know what to do head back to our website horse racing radio

dot net you can listen to the podcast at your leisure you can also do that on every major podcast

platform so however you get your podcasts make sure you type in horse racing radio network and

listen to this conversation with John it's been tremendous and again we're only halfway through

getting started with the second half of the program John listening to that call of the breeders

cop classic and Trevor what was going through your mind my goodness that was that was so exciting

and I know that was that was a moment I you know there was so much anticipation so much worries

and so much excitement and once you won that race I didn't know what to do really I felt like

I was going to explode and actually I wanted to rip my jacket off but I thought that would

really be in bad form so just through my hat you know I mean I mean I was ready to explode I

don't know it was just such a moment you know she retired in 2010 after her runner runner up

effort in the breeders cop classic that year at Churchill Downs it's been 13 years since in yada

and that's really hard to get your head wrapped around because it seems like just yesterday how often

are you still asked about Zenyatta well I would say I won't say every day but at least two or

three times a week I mean she is that wonderful that she's still on the mind of so many people and

she had such fans who just adore her it was contagious really that breeders cop classic win in

2009 is going to go down in history is one of the truly great performances she looked it looked

she didn't have a chance and then somehow she found the courage I'll call it personal ensign

ask to find a way to blow past the field late and you described your reaction after the race what are

some of the the favorites Zenyatta moments for John Sheriff's that that always come to mind when

you hear her name oh you know I there I know there are so many but one of the one of those really

and a lot of them so one time I you know this lady she was blind and she wanted to quote unquote

see Zenyatta and so we she came on a bus Steve went down to the bus stop brought her back to the

barn and I thought well you know she'll put her hand her palm on the horse and you know kind of

feel it and feel its texture and all that and that's not what she did and I understand now that

she used her fingertips and she touched touch touch touch touch all down her neck on her flank

and she's alive I've got to touch her hocks I think oh my god because she's not heading like a

horse is used to but she's touching touching touching and Zenyatta never moved never did a thing she

just stood there and let that lady do that and I thought wow I really didn't expect that but

now I kind of get it for them to put it all together they have to touch quickly so they can

get it all in the mind at the same time and it was was quite an experience for me to watch that

and then another time so you had you know she's still in training to be a race horse too so

another time that we had the buyer horse model person come out and her 12-year-old daughter

or 10-year-old daughter I don't remember which plot the model out okay well brings Zenyatta out

and she can look at it and so they got some pictures we're receiving it and everything

and then Zenyatta got kind of bored with a social turn move away and the little girl took her hand

and just put it right over her rope right between her hind legs and she goes right over her

rope and she's done it just didn't do anything just just let it go I mean she was she was such a

classy mayor one time they had this this auction for breakfast with Zenyatta and so the lady came

out their family and everything and so we brought Zenyatta out we had this big table for

pegs and whatever anyway so Zenyatta kept pulling pulling to go to this chair and the woman's

purse was on the chair and I said why why she's doing that and then the lady says oh you know what

I got some carrots in my purse so how she could smell those carrots from being underneath the tree

which is at least 25 feet away so that just goes to tell you how sensitive their sense of smell is

right wow so she could she because she never met that person before so I mean so just and those

regards she's unbelievable and one of one of the things when she first came to the barn oh man she

could gal and just jump in there and fire right in buck so after a couple weeks there and nobody

wanted to get on her so I had this one young lady by any of their Heather Gonzalez and she's

all right Zenyatta I'll be okay so I said okay Heather if you want a ride or go ahead

just my barn was right by the training track and so she'd go up there and out of many times it's

Zenyatta came back by herself she'd jump and kick and buck that little girl off and she'd run

back to the barn but finally finally she got it all straightened out and fired galloping really strong

and then I told I said well Heather we better start putting Steve on her now but she's getting

a little too strong but I don't know Zenyatta was just special she she would when we went to the

for the apple blossom that oakland went Steve would hold her there and and I don't know

100 to 150 people came up and had the picture taken weather and she was just a patient this can be

in one morning out behind the barn she was grazing and some lady walks over

crazy side of a hole to it says oh I'm gonna pick her head up so I can get a better picture

you know I never bothered Zenyatta she was she was good about all that stuff wow well

well John what's your most cherished piece of Zenyatta memorabilia that you still have

oh I have a

ever a racing bridal and she's gonna take me in anyway so um so this let this school

teacher in Canada that was dying of cancer and her friend called and said that you know she just

she just loves Zenyatta so is that okay we'll put her name on the browband and Zenyatta will wear it

in her last race and I think that's it that's beautiful absolutely beautiful John

Cheris with me here on trainer talk presented by phasic tipped in here on the horse racing radio

network so many wonderful moments in his training career certainly Zenyatta is a big part of a part

of that John she was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2016 and I mentioned earlier that your name

came up as a nominee this year for the Hall of Fame when you got the news that you were going to

be on the ballot this year tell me about that moment well that's you know that's that's a moment

for all my friends all the people I've worked for work with and shared this journey so um you

know it was wonderful to think that at some time I could thank them

yeah I mean there's so many people that are involved in getting a trainer to the Hall of Fame or any

level in their career I've had many trainers come on the show over the years and say listen it's

not all about me I'm the one in the spotlight I'm the one calling the shots but there are so many

people involved in getting me here so John talk about some of the people that have have helped you

along the way okay so um let's see um obviously Henry Fried is Henry Fried is was was uh was my

server guy right my horseman so I need to probably start with uh Dr. Roberts Dr. Roberts was a

who's in in Los Angeles and he took me into his home and because he had he had Western horses

loved horses he had a farmpole coon creek ranch and in near Roseville and one day the his man laughed

and he said hey John I know you know about horses and things you mind going up there and and taking

you know taking care of it's got to fight so I said no problem so one day it was time to get the

cattle out of the brush and so he said I got a cowboy coming so I said oh okay right so we go up

to the other other end of the cash or whatever and the guy come cowboy comes up he's got

pickup truck horses already saddled in it horse jumps out of the pickup truck he's got a

uh austrian shepherd a healer at Queensland I mean hitter and a Queensland healer and he

got these big fat wings on him he jumps on his horse and woof up the hilly goes right the dog

barking chasing him and he's got his ropes slapping on the side of the saddle and big fat wings and

cowboy hat my wife and go up there and I said wow this looks pretty cool so a few minutes

later here come the here come the cows out of the brush and everything he hears them up and

so I got talking to him a little bit and same with Jimmy Williamton Jimmy Jim Mathews and uh so

I said to all of me I used to ride and I had jumped some horses you know back in New York far

anyway so got a month later he calls hey John I've got this appalicious horse I'd like to

teach him how to jump I said okay come up and so I went up there and you know I couldn't

didn't pay anything but I had room and board and so Jimmy uh Jim Mathews was a real cowboy run he

taught me about a war bridal running w um and and just all about uh the cowboy way in so many

regards like he he was working with cutting horses and things like that so I learned that and

that really helped me in um and seeing the whole picture of horsemanship right and in the

in the way I got this is interesting to me the way I got my job was Henry Friedish because because

Jim couldn't pay me said John I'll give you this horse so you can sell them that'll be the money

so I'm riding this horse across this into this other farm and I didn't know I'm you know I'm from

New York to have try I don't know I think so anyway I go across this field and this big mud bog is

there right and the horse gets stuck like up to his hawks and so finally I get him out of it

and there's Henry Friedish who I didn't know at that time he's standing over there and he says uh

you know if you want to come to work I got a job for you so that's that's how I that's how I got

from from working for this cowboy guy over to uh to Henry Friedish just since watching me ride

this horse out of this mud bog and of course obviously grass valley there's not a lot of

riding talent up there it's in the middle it's up in this year so there isn't a lot of pick

for right you know for people to find the rider so I was very fortunate in that way so

Jim Matthew was a great help in learning um had a handle like I said when I was younger I was

swarming just so I could I could handle those horses in a more rough quote unquote fashion

and then and then Henry was you know put a little bit of polish and sophistication on it all for me

so that was that was a big deal and um on the racetrack I was I was very fortunate at that

particular time on racetrack when you were new a lot of people helped you Don Porter okay Don Porter

you know the famous trainer from Northern California wasn't the business a long time so I'm

walking this horse in the receiving barn and I get it start to give him a drink of water and Don says

hey John don't pull that horse's head out of the water let him drink as much as he wants because

his first drink will be his best drink if you want to rehydrate or so don't pull it out

and I thought well that's interesting I never heard that before so over the years I

followed his philosophy would never any problem I thought you know that was really really uh

you know a nice thing for him to do and so

and that's true the first drink will be the best drink for a horse is that true

yeah absolutely yeah now because you know then because yeah they come back to thirsty right

and so they need some water so so once they have some water then they might be distracted looking

around or whatever so they'll drink more water the first time and they will if you make them drink

little sips all along so that's that's just you know another take on it's I'm sure there'll be

other people's oh no you can't do that they're hot we drink too much water but um that's that's

the way it is horses right everybody's different they're they're in thing yeah so um and then

I don't know I always study what other people are doing right because I think obviously they're

more experienced than I was and I needed to learn so I watched and I watched Lucas a lot and

Bobby Frankl I used to I used to name gals off of trainers right so uh my Bobby Frankl's

gallop was okay jog the horse back a mile and then turn around and gallop a mile um so I

they wouldn't have to tell the writer I say I do the Frankl gallop and the Lucas gallop was a little

bit different it was a little longer I say you're gonna jog then you're gonna gallop a mile and then

you're gonna jog another turn so horse has a warm up a gallop and a warm down so I just say that's

a Lucas gallop so you know I just I try to follow and learn from the people that have been successful

and another person that um that I found interesting was Alan Jerkins because

I don't know when I went to dinner with Alan Jerkins a lot he would sit and listen so

you know and here's the you know it's in the hall of fame historic great trainer and he would sit

there and table at the table and listen he wouldn't dominate the conversation he wanted to learn

more and listen to other people so I think those are you know qualities that are really good to

accept and emulate there may be a young person listening to this show here tonight John and

they may be thinking about getting involved in training race horses and maybe they're like you

maybe they're keeping an eye on John Sheriffs and how he approaches his business and they're

listening to what you have to say here tonight what what advice would you give to a young person

that's thinking about just starting a training career in today's environment boy so um

today and I think in any generation everything changes uh and then stays the same obviously so

for me obviously the thing is to listen to your horse that of your horse and as much as you can

let the horse train himself I mean you're gonna have to make adjustments but don't try to be the

trainer of the horse let the horse help you with that training you know I mean I I always

have the idea that um if a horse is feeling good on a day that he may want to train a little more

so let him train if the horse is not feeling as well or a little off that they don't force

on the train if he doesn't really feel like training that hard let him do something easy so it's

it's about anything like um it's communication right it's communicating with your horse in some way

and getting to understand the feeling of it and then being able to communicate with the people

that you're working with because that's really important I would tell my riders you know you're

like that you're like the captain of the ship you're the only person that can keep that horse from

harm so whatever I say to you you're still the captain of the ship so I think when you

you try to find people that will work with you in that regard and and won't

won't be afraid that if that they didn't do exactly what you said it's okay because they're

making a decision at the moment so those those are just some of the things this next question John

I'll ask it quite often here on trainer talk because the responses are always so different and

and quite frankly they're they're usually pretty darn good um a golfer often talks about the greatest

shot that they ever made uh baseball player will talk about the greatest swing that they've ever

put on a pitch and you know the greatest moment in their careers how about for you is there a

well what would you consider to be the greatest training job you've ever done with anyone

horse well you know that's pretty obvious I would have to say Zignano would be the best job I

ever did she required a lot of patience a lot of trust and and I I always have the feeling

that horses especially their red horses are very very special breed and and you have to respect

they are a very special breed and so for her Zignata it was always about you know um can she do it

right as you can to be able to do it this week or next week or whatever so it was all about

asking her and listening to okay today my gallop wasn't the best but um tomorrow I'll

be better or or whatever so it was um she she was she was the best training job I ever did for sure

there have been many John Sheriff says my guest here on trainer talk presented by phasic tipton

John let me throw a few other names at you horses that we haven't talked about yet and I'll let you

tell me their story uh let's go back to the beginning let's start with Bertrando that gutsy

California bread would you remember about Bertrando okay so how lucky was I to train a horse like

the Trando that came from when I once was five oh five and Bobby Franklin and Bruce headly it

already trained him in one many many great races with him so Bertrando was a was one funny thing

happened once with Bertrando and Bertrando was he taught me what a class horse was all about right

he he really helped me a lot and recognizing that you have to have faith in the horse believe in

the horse and trust the horse that's that's really important but anyway so we're going to uh

erase it that um at Belmont right and holy bulls in the race some walking up the tunnel there

with Bertrando and we get to the paddock and here comes holy bull everybody claps oh yeah great

holy bull he comes with Trando boo boo you know New Yorker's right for the most

president of the people in the world like goodness they couldn't be nice it's a hey nice horse

nice no boo boo that was that was so funny that was pretty that was pretty good yeah there there's

nothing like a New York sports fan right when you're the opposing team how about the name

mannestique to stick with the early days mannestique yes what a fantastic you know and I

that was one of my first first year or something I mean yeah mannestique was a beautiful beautiful

unbridled silly that's how I got to know Carl Nazca but but anyway so she was fantastic but um

she had a she had a problem displacing so she when she got nervous she would

displace and uh so we had a lot a lot of trouble with that in that regard and the other thing is

that she was such a sweetheart I used to probably saw pictures I trying to get her to eat you know

I used to have to handfeeder but she won her first erases by 30 something like she was a she

she was an amazing horse yeah another name that people will remember when they think of John

Sheriff's is Tiago so tell me a little bit more about Tiago and what he meant to your career

Tiago won the Senate of Derby and he was the reason that I got Mike Smith back to California

we're having trouble with Tiago because he you want to log in so much and uh

Mike Mike came out and we put a different bridal on him and we got him got him straightened out and uh

he won the Senate of Derby and uh he was he was really a really nice horse and uh

he um

he was good

yeah certainly very special John we have about three minutes left in the program and this has

been such a delight and I can't thank you enough for spending the time with me and with our listeners

here um over the course of the past hour and I always like to wrap up the show by asking trainers

to let us know something about them that we haven't touched on yet so maybe other hobbies or

interests or things that John Sheriff's enjoys outside of racing are there a few other things

well you know I'm just I really enjoy reading about the history of this sport I think

I like you know a Jerome Park how many people uh know where Jerome Park was um and um that was in

New York and it was between I think 1866 and 1890 and it was was the you know the social life

place for racing back then so pretty much um I just like reading about the horses

yeah it's all about the horses and that has served you very well over the course of your career

if I'm going to walk into your house John you already told that very touching story about

Zenyatta and her bridal what other things am I going to see uh either on the walls or maybe in

the trophy case what other things am I going to see when I walk into John Sheriff's house

man or man or I have oh yeah kidding me man or oh yeah so uh yeah but I have a I have a picture

photograph portrait of man or given by um fine by Sam Riddle in the photographer Suplif

and it was given at a banquet honoring war admiral in some place in New York so that's that's

one of my really prized possessions and then I have and then I have um this is interesting this

is horse racing right this it would happen horse racing so this this lady needed some money and she

had this old clipping of when man or and so Barton ran in Canada I said wow how could she still have

that clipping and she said well you know that's where my mother and father met at the race between

Sir Barton and man or so she said that all the all those years and so I have that little little

clipping so I think all these things touch on you know a lot of different memories from people

and John you have provided a lot of different memories for people over the years and certainly

here tonight as well really do appreciate the conversation all the best on Saturday with Skinner

let's go in another one my friend all right thank you all right this trainer John

Shiris what did the light what a story fantastic we could have spent another hour easy

looking back on some of his top moments if you missed any portion of the show head to our website

horse racing radio dot net you can check out the podcast at your leisure and you can do that

on every major podcast platform for my special guest John Shiris from my producer Lee Delapina

in our Lexington studio I'm Mike Panna thanks for listening to this edition of trainer talk

presented by phasic tipton enjoy the durvey everyone