Transforming the Church with Dr. Derwin L Gray - It's Time To Heal with Jo Hargreaves

0:00Hey guys, what's happening? This is Pastor Durwin Gray and I want to thank you for tuning in to the Transforming the Church Podcast. This podcast is designed with you in mind. It's designed with ministry leaders in mind because we know that ministry is challenging and it's hard and we want healthy ministry leaders. We want you to transfer health and not hurt. This is also for followers of Jesus who are serious about their faith. They want to be encouraged in the gospel. They want to be equipped in the gospel. That's what we are trying to do with these conversations. So, Transforming the Church Podcast encourages you, equips you, inspires you, would you like and subscribe? Let everybody know. Let your cousin, your mama, let everybody know. Your liking and subscribing are super important. So I have a really, really special guest and my wife actually turned me on to her Instagram.

1:07My wife, Vicki and I, my wife, the greatest leader that I know, chief of staff at Transformation Church, co-planeture of Transformation Church. But more important, a beloved daughter of God who just exhibits that grace, she was like, there's an Instagram account that you need to follow. She is saying the stuff we say, but she's using therapy and scripture. And I was like, okay, whatever. Let me go save this. And I got on there. I was like, wow, okay, the faith filled therapist. And so I have been following you. My wife follows you. We let everybody know about you because it is incredible how you integrate the beauty of scripture, the gospel, but also neuroscience. I think you may have been one of the first persons that I heard the term neuroplasticity from. And so Joe, I just want to thank you so much for your work. And I also want to thank you because you're over in the UK, right?

2:10I am. I'm here in a very rainy Lincoln in the middle of the UK. Yes. Lincoln is in the middle of the UK. Now, so the I have never been to the UK. I've been to other parts of Europe. So is Lincoln anywhere near London? Yeah, it's not too far. If you got on a train now, you could be at Kings Crossed London in just over an hour. Okay. Okay. All right. And then so I need to know who your favorite football team is? Well, I'm going to have to say Lincoln, our own Lincoln football team because they have just been promoted into the one that sits underneath the Premier League, which I think is the championship. So they've just been promoted. So yeah, I'm going to have to say good old Lincoln city. Okay. Okay. So my son got me, he made me a man city fan. And so I don't know much about it. So I'm a man city fan. And whenever I put that online,

3:14I had no idea that you're paying footballers and their fans, they're worse than the NFL fans. I mean, they take this stuff seriously. It's wild. They, honestly, it is. It is so interesting. And actually, I've just, so my husband was a semi-profit baller for many years. Let's go. I know. Her husband was a semi-profoot baller. Let's go. Well, it's not the world I live in at all really, but I did recently just come back from a retreat for pro athletes. And so there were lots of members of our Premier League footballers, but also had lots of NFN and NFL footballers there as well. I can't match your names because I signed a contract with a scientist tell who was there. But I noticed your football is bigger than our footballers. Our footballers, yeah, we are a little bit bigger. Were, were you at professional athletes outreach? Yes, yes, I was. Yeah. Yeah. So, so P.A.O. professional athletes outreach is how my wife and I really came to faith when I played

4:21in the NFL before we were followers of price. We had teammates who would invite us to go to P.A.O. So that is incredible. I love that. So probably we met the same people and know the same people. Well, maybe because it's been a few years since we've been there. And so I'm 55. So it was a long time ago. So let me ask you this. So how did this world of faith and this world of psychology marry and turn into such a powerful ministry? How did how did how did that happen? Yeah, well really must have been God's plan because it wasn't mine specifically. I didn't set out to do that at all. I just have always since becoming a Christian since knowing Jesus, following Jesus, have always been in a real love affair with his church and with his word and I've just always just loved the word of God. And I've just been and one of those kind of insufferable curious people who always wants to know why.

5:28I want to know the reason why and I think I love I love the poetry and this how the word of God is living in an active in shop of the shop of the in a double edged sword. And I wanted to know why reading the word of God transformed me more than anything else really. And so Romans 12 to I'm like, oh, be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Okay, how? Why? What happens? What does that look like? Not just at spiritual level, but at every level in our being. And I trained to be a counselor. I've done that years before my children were born and then I upskilled, become a psychotherapist, and then I began studying neuroscience. I've done all my postgrad in neuroscience. And just began to see that everything that we're learning, and this is Dr. Caroline Leafy said this not me, but everything we're learning is in neuroscience. It's just catching up with Scripture. And that could sound like a really kind of nice thing to say if we didn't realize that the research really correlates there. It just points us to one who created us, who knitted us together,

6:29who understands our brain, our wiring. And that for me feels so transformative to my faith. It makes me feel so understood, so seen, and so hopeful. So yeah. Yeah, you know, it's sometimes particularly in American context. I can't speak of the UK context, but oftentimes we communicate the gospel like an ancient heresy called nostracism. And the nostics were basically like your spirit. Don't worry about your body. And so when it comes to our mind, it's kind of like, well, just pray it away. And we don't understand that we are holistic beings and the capacity to change our brains, our capacity to think really is catching up with what Paul said and hold every thought captive and be transformed by the renewing of your mind. And so anyway, but before we get into that,

7:32I want to thank you. You were at the top of my list to read and endorse my forthcoming book. It's time to heal for God-given steps to restore what life shattered. And I actually cited you in the book, but I was like, I got to get Joe, I got to get her. And you were so gracious and so kind to write an endorsement. And I appreciate that tremendously. Ah, it was a real pleasure. I mean, equally, I love what you guys do. I love what you guys do at church. I didn't know that you were at you to play football. So that's really exciting. That's brilliant. And I love the book, this book, because I know that there's more books, previous and there's more books to come, which is exciting. But this I love. And I think four steps is just a really, just really accessible, isn't it, a world where we get so much information and we are quite saturated with information is like, here you go. Like this, it's easily digestible, but also very transformative

8:36at the same time. And I'm excited I get to ask you some questions about the book. Oh, good. Well, I'm ready. I'm ready. Right. Okay. Good. Well, I know that we mentioned this a little bit out of this recorded conversation. But you talked about having some books before. I know that this is the second part of the three book deal. So there's another book to come. And you talked about having a bit of a system for writing. Yeah. Let us see what the system is. Yeah. Okay. So the first thing is I need it to create some new pathways in my mind because my old pathways in my mind told me I was not smart, told me no one wanted to hear what I had to say, told me that you couldn't write. And I was several books into writing and many of them best sellers and I still felt that way. And as you know, feelings don't determine truth, but feelings tell you what you're believing. And we were on

9:39spring break, I believe in 2018 or so. And we were in Denmark. And so my wife and son were walking ahead of my daughter and I. And I was explaining to my daughter why I can't write books, why I shouldn't write books. No one's going to listen. And she just stopped me in my tracks. And she said, that if God is calling you to write books, all that other stuff doesn't matter. If he will give you the grace to do it. So since then, I've written a book called The Good Life. I wrote a book called How to heal our racial divide. I wrote a book called God. Do you hear me? I wrote a book called Lit Up with Love. I wrote a book called It's Time to Heal. Then I'll have a 2020, 27 book called Who Do You Think You Are? Then I'll have a 20, 28 book call and he enters Jesus knows our pain. He

10:41knows our pain. So when my daughter confronted me with the truth, I had a choice to make. Let me ask the Holy Spirit to help me believe a new story about me that I am love that I am called, that I am gifted that I'm in par by the Holy Spirit that I'm the body of Christ. I'm chosen by Christ. I'm grace by Christ. I have the mercy of Christ. And I have literally been a writing machine since then. That's the underneath. That's the neuroplasticity. That's to be transformed by the renaulina of your mind. Now, the physical process, Joe, of how I write a book. Here's what happens. And I use this terminology with trepidation is I get I get pregnant. God plant something in me. And I go, no, I don't want to do this. I don't like writing books. And then it grows and grows and grows and

11:42then all of a sudden I'll wake up with ideas for a book outline. And so the first thing that I do is I'll do a book outline. That's the most important part of writing a book is your outline. What's the vision? What's the strategy to get there? Right? Vision is why are you writing it? And if people follow this book, what's going to happen? Well, here, so, so here are the steps. And so then once I get the vision, once I get the outline, I tell myself, I'm going to write 500 words a day, six days a week. Not less, not more. And here's what I've learned to do is I'm editing myself when I'm writing because every word matters. You know, it's like being on a budget. I have to spend it wisely

12:42in what matters. And I've become a better writer because on the front end, I'm recognizing only have a few words to spend today. So I need to spend them where they matter the most. And so that's kind of the process that I go through is God gets me pregnant. Oh, here it comes. All right, vision, why? And then the chapters is how do we do it? And then the process of this is how many words I'm going to write per day. And so there's some days I'm done in 45 minutes, 500 words, bam, done. There's some days it takes three hours, bam, done. But that word count makes me make every word count. That is so good. I mean, that's great personally to hear. I'm taking that away. It's also really helpful for people who've discounted themselves. Like you did think I've got nothing to say. And yet here you are writing all of these books, all the books that you've written, the book, the start of

13:45this kind of trilogy. I love the title, who do you think you are? That's such a good title because we ask ourselves that all the time, I think, like, who do you think you are to write a book? So I walk what? And so this book that you've written feels really deeply personal, feels like a kind of insight into your own world. And what happened in your own healing journey that made you realize, I have to write this. So what was the kind of process before the pregnancy that made you think this is something that needs to come out? I think about, it's probably about eight years ago, and in my pastoral counseling and in talking to followers of Jesus, it seemed like people were just an occult to sex circling their hurts, circling their wound. And then what I began to see, and I don't know if it was a generational shift, as a gen X, it was like, okay, you don't talk about

14:46your hurt, you stuff it. And there's a part that's resilient, but it comes out unhealthily, because if you don't deal with it, it's going to deal with you. But then I found in the last eight years, the wound became your identity. It became your excuse to stay stuck. And then, and then it became like, okay, I've been to therapy, and I know why I am the way I am. But what do I do with it? And so what I've seen from a pastoral perspective, and then from my own perspective, right? So growing up as a gen X, my goodness, I was a latchkey kid, I was at home after school, cooking food for myself, no one was there, one time I dropped hot grease on my foot, I experienced various traumas and wounds like we all have. And so for me, what happened, Joe, was when I came to Jesus, he was the most beautiful and breathtaking person I've ever met.

15:51Like I could actually come to him and not have to put on a mask. I could come to him and not have to pretty myself up because he already knew I wasn't. And one of the truths that I learned is that ultimately there's one person who loves us at our worst. And it's unconditional life giving no strings attached, the love we've been created for. And so when I met Jesus, it was like, I want to listen to every word you say. And then secondly, this may surprise you as a football player, we do CBT all the time. But we don't call it cognitive behavioral therapy. You know what we call it? Memorize your playbook. Think positive. Memorize the plays over. See yourself playing great in the game. So when I was born again when the spirit of God evaded my life, I thought, wait a minute, if a football player has a playbook, God has a playbook

16:53called the Bible. And if Jesus himself, when he was tempted in his humanity by Satan, every temptation, he didn't defeat it externally. He defeated it internally. He said, as it is written, he said it three times. He was quoting scripture from Deuteronomy. And he was practicing a form of transforming his mind to know what truth was. And so I began to see how, wait a minute, I'm changing. I'm becoming more tender hearted. I'm becoming more gracious. I'm becoming more secure. The more I know how much God loves me. But it wasn't like I thought about this for a minute. It was all day because as a football player, you're taught, think about this all day. And little did I know I was doing neuroplasticity. Little did I know that I was that that that that I was flooding my mind with dopamine and serotonin and being changed. And so I wrote this book for people like me. And people like me, as people like all of us.

18:00As you know, the Greek word for trauma is the word wound. And our wounds become infected when we don't deal with those wounds. And in the American context, we are woefully prepared to deal with our wounds. We're taught work harder, do more, accomplish more. And we think that's going to cover up our wounds. And so I wrote, it's time to heal for people who are ready to heal. I love that. I love that. And I already know the book will be a blessing. And I think, I think addressing something like that in the way that you address stuff. I love to say, I love the way that you say it. I wrote this book for people like me, which is everyone, you know, people who need to know that absolute regulating truth, essentially Romans 830, isn't a 38, nothing, nothing can separate you from the love of God that's in Christ Jesus.

19:00Angel's name is life death, nothing. And that is such a regulating truth. And this is why I love this in section neuroscience and scripture, because that's a deeply spiritual truth. It's profoundly spiritual. But that comes in out works in your physical body. You can't know that truth and it not shift in your biology and make you feel safer and more secure. And all those things that you said you noticed in yourself, I feel more secure and I feel this. And that's like how the word of God works. And I guess in my role, I love how you bring together scripture and your neuroscience trauma awareness. I love even that of the idea of trauma and wound. And also your absolute emotional honesty. Like there is no sugar coating. We're just here. This is the emotional honesty. And why do you believe that follows of Jesus need all four of those conversations instead of treating healing as purely spiritual or just purely psychological? Why do you think we

20:01need all four of those things? Because God and His grace gave us all four of those things. You know, in my 20s, when I would fly home back to San Antonio, Texas, where I was from, as soon as the pilot would say, Hey, we're getting ready to land in San Antonio, my eye would just begin to twitch. And I had no idea. We didn't know what a trauma response was. My body was going danger, danger, danger, not that all parts of my experience was bad. But there were some deeply wounding things. And my body was saying, Hey, alarm, alarm, alarm. And then my kids, when they became teenagers would say, Hey, uh, dad, when you get back home to Texas, you're, you're, you're, you know, you're patient with us, but you're not patient with other people the way you are patient with mom or the way you're patient with Presley or the way you're patient with me. Why, why is it that your patients decreases? And as I listened to the background story,

21:09it was like, well, but you don't know what I've been through. You don't know what I had to go through. You don't know those things. And so I was letting my trauma take the steering wheel of my life. And so I had to do, uh, what's called meta cognition where you take a step back and go, okay, what am I thinking about? What am I processing about? And by the way, that doesn't take as long as people think it takes. In a second, you can go through various scenarios. And so I began to have to tell myself, okay, nothing can separate me from the love of Christ. I am secure in the head, no pierced hands of Christ. I am forgiven in Christ. I am the righteousness of Christ. The Holy Spirit is in me. And so sadly, in my perspective of nearly three decades in ministry, most of Christianity is about behavioral management or sin management. It's like, how can I shuffle

22:12my sin around? So people wake up not with, oh my gosh, the living creator of the universe. Not only loves me, but likes and adores me, not because of anything I've done, but purely because God is love. Love is not what God does. Love is who God is. And the ultimate revelation of God's love is Jesus. And the bloody cross echoes throughout eternity. I love you. But most of us wake up, going, okay, how do I not watch pornography? How do I not be mean? How do I not do this? How do I avoid this? And it turns into like a spiritual narcissism that then creates more shame, which says something's wrong with you, more guilt, you deserve to fill this way. And it's like, I'm following Jesus. Actually, you're not following Jesus is, Lord, here I am. I have nothing to bring.

23:13And he goes, I know you don't precious what, but I've got everything you need. My gracious sufficient. And a lot of people hear that and they think, what, that means I don't have to do anything. No, it means this, it means that God does it in you. And it's a joyful, holy, beautiful, hard thing. I love that. And I love that shift. And I really, really like that phrase, spiritual narcissism, actually, I think that's almost like, how can I write my to-do list of all the good things I can do, all the bad things that I can avoid? And I've found actually in my kind of recent years, my prayer is mostly, Lord, have mercy on me, Asynah. Lord, thank you for your mercy. Thank you for your love. Thank you for your word that is living and active and shaping me, rather than this constant striving, because yeah, I realize it's futile. But of course, we work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Of course, we figure that out, but like under the loving

24:16gaze of God, not under that kind of harsh stare that we can get used to from maybe our own childhoods or whatever. And I guess it's then we're free, which leads me onto my next question, to be the truest, most authentic version of this. Because there's a phrase that I use to talk to I'm about, we often deny our authenticity to prefer attachment. So because we're so desperate for this attachment with Jesus, the so desperate for his affirmation that we can kind of deny what's true. But actually with Jesus, we don't need to do that. How wonderful that he will never leave us, never for the sake of even when we show up as the authentic worst version of ourselves. And you write God only heals the true version of this. I mean, put it on a t-shirt and let me wear that around that. It's just so good. God only heals the true version of this. Tell like unpack your mind there. Let's get an insight into your mind. What do you mean by it? And what is honesty about our wounds? Why is honesty about our wounds? Often one of the hardest steps towards healing just to be

25:19honest about it. Yeah, let me let me let me share a story and then we can unpack the story. So the year was 1995. I was a team captain for the Indianapolis Colts. We're planned in New Orleans, Saints in New Orleans. And I had a really good game except for two penalties. One of them was a legitimate penalty on me, but one of them was not. And I didn't know how to process the loss. And so on the plane, I started drinking with teammates. You're not supposed to bring alcohol on the plane, but some of them had some. Then when we got back to Indianapolis, we went to a restaurant bar and I just started doing vodka shots. Now at this time, Vicki, my wife was pregnant with a condition called hyper-emesis gravaderum. That's a Latin word for puking all day, every day for nine months. So she's feeling terrible. Her sisters in town to help take care of her. And so back then,

26:22there were no cell phones. She had no clue where I was. It was I okay. So I get home. One of my teammates carries me into the house. As soon as I get into the bedroom, she jumps out of bed like, where have you been? Are you okay? And the next thing I know, Joe, is I'm just puking. And I'm on the floor in a drunken stupor saying, I let the baby down. I let the team down. I let the city down. I let you down. I let myself down. I was not being authentic in that moment. The true reason I responded that way is I was afraid. If the Indianapolis cult fire me from my job, I would just be a poor kid from San Antonio, Texas, who people laughed at because he's stuttered, whose family had a bad reputation. It was fear. I just said that because I didn't want to go. I'm afraid I'm going to lose

27:23my job because if I lose my job, I'm going to lose me. So Vicky's sister actually cleans up the mess. I pass out. I wake up in the morning and I distinctly remember looking at a mirror saying, bro, there's something wrong with you. And that's when it began to be honest with God because what sense does it make to be 25 years old, living your dream, making good money, beautiful wife, baby on the way, brand new house, Lexus, helping your family with money, living out of childhood dream, yet I'm in a puddle of vomit. And so when I woke up the next morning and said something's wrong with you, that was like being honest with God. Like, yeah, something's wrong with me. And I don't know what it is. And so a lot of times we come to God with like half-truths, like kind of

28:26like our kids, you know, well, I cleaned up my room, but you just moved all your clothes under the bed. You didn't really clean it up. And so Jesus said in Matthew 5-3, blessed are the poor spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. And the word blessed in Greek is the word macros. And it literally means happy. Happy are those who know they need God for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Grace only works on people who are empty of themselves. And oftentimes we have to hit rock bottom to realize that Jesus is the rock at the bottom. And so I wanted to share pieces of my heart because as a pastor, as a disciple, as an author, I'm under the writing that I'm writing. I'm not writing at people. I'm journeying with people. And it's hard to be vulnerable. I didn't,

29:28I didn't really cry. Like cry, cry until after I came to Christ because I was taught as a little boy. Don't cry. I remember I was eight years old. My thumb got slammed in a trunk and I was about to cry and my big cousin said, don't cry. Men don't cry. And so, and so like I was taught. You don't cry. And then at age 13, I figured this out. I said, you know what? These people around me that's supposed to be taken care of me. They are so unreliable. So at 13, I was an adult and I'm like, if you get close to me, this is as far as you're getting. And I took that into my marriage. I took that into everything because if you get close to me, you can hurt me. And if anybody's going to hurt me, it's going to be me. And so that vulnerability of going, I got nowhere else to run. I got nowhere else to hide. So Jesus, here I am. And he's like, yeah, I know. But while we were yet sinners,

30:32Christ died for us. God loves us at our absolute worst. And it's so freeing to know when he knocks on the door, I don't have to comb my hair. I don't have to put on makeup. I don't have to get, no, come as you are. And what's beautiful is he closes us in his robes of righteousness. He closes us in his precious blood that wipes his clean and forget. It gives us, he crowns us what the Father's mercy and goodness. The good news of Jesus is that Jesus becomes everything that we could never be and gives to us what we never could achieve. And every day of every moment we renew our minds with those truths. Amen. Amen. And I get that vulnerability story when you had to learn very early on, nobody's coming to save me. Nobody's coming to look after me. In fact, the incredible is not safe. And so we come up with this adaptive strategy. And maybe it actually did help you

31:37at some point. Maybe there have been points of your life where that's helped you. But then when we know who Jesus is, it becomes maladaptive, doesn't it? It's not adaptive anymore. It's maladaptive. We don't need it. No. And so I get that. I do. I get that. And you've talked a lot, but I think the way that you write and the way that you talk is quite lyrical. Like I love it. I just think like there's a like almost like you could write songs out of your books. And so throughout the book, you repeatedly point people back to the scars of Jesus. So you've talked about his bloody hand and the scars of Jesus. And why Christ wounds are so central to our healing? Well, just utterly, I think anything else, in the message paraphrase, it talks about self-helpers, no help at all. And you think it's got to be all about him, in him through him, at all to do with him. So how does seeing his scars differently help us see our own scars differently? What's the knock on effect?

32:41Yeah, yeah, you know, I remember years ago, this was gosh, the early days of ministry. This was in the 2000s. And I was not exposed to any form of like mental health things. Our mental health journey actually started when my wife was pregnant with our son Jeremiah. And my wife went into Vicki went into clinical depression. And she looked at me and she was like, I don't want to live anymore. And I was like, what? So we started praying. And then when she went to the doctor, he closed the door and on the back was a list of your depressed if. And she answered like, yes, all 10. And so that kind of began our journey, so to speak, and understand it and so in the early 2000s, I think I'm in Montana. And there was a young lady who just got out of rehab.

33:49She was doing self-harm. And so this is the early days. You didn't really hear about self-harm, you didn't hear about cutting. And I was not aware. And she had scars on her wrist. And she was explaining the tortures you felt. And I looked at her and I just said, God fills your pain and Jesus has scars too. He knows what you feel. And on the cross, he felt all of it. But in the resurrection, he's walking with you and you're going to get through it. I mean, I didn't know the proper terms to say, but I knew because he has scars, he can identify with our scars. Now as I look at my own life, I've got some scars. And instead of those scars telling me, you've been defeated, they're testimonies of what God has done. My father was one of 17.

34:50In the 70s, I'm quite sure he had loads of trauma. As a little boy, I remember his dad coming home drunk, fighting everybody, cussing everybody out. And I remember my dad gently carrying his berated, drunk father to his room. It wasn't his first time that he had done that. And so when my dad, he was addicted to heroin, which probably was self-medication. But at 13, you don't know that. And gosh, I was just angry with him for so long. And after Jesus, I knew I needed to forgive him. And ultimately, I did forgive him and we did reconcile. But the scar of growing up without a dad became a testimony. My kids love me. My kids adore me. My kids cherish me. My perfect dad, no, because I'm not God. But my kids know that dad has their back. And we're best friends.

35:57I mean, we're friends with our adult kids. And when I was young, I didn't have parents to call. And it's great to be a resource to hear what they're talking about. You know, my daughter lives in soul. She's at soul, national university. My son just finished his second year of law school at Penn, Ivy League law school. He's working at a bank in Manhattan on Wall Street. And you know, it's what the enemy meant for evil. God has turned to good. And now I can help others. The first wedding, I went to was my own at 21. And now my wife and I teach on marriage. Matter of fact, we're going to do a cruise called the Grey Cruise. Go to GreyCruise.com. And we're going to be in the Caribbean for four days teaching. Yes. So Joe, you and your husband can leave rainy. You can come join us in the Caribbean.

36:57GreyCruise.com. You don't have to teach. Just come and enjoy. And so I look back and I go, man, every scar I can point to and go, man, that hurt. But let me tell you about the healing. I love that. I mean, not just the cruise. That sounds incredible. But I love that. And I feel, and last night I watched an Instagram reel and it was a picture. It was a video of a daughter having her first dance with her dad at her wedding. The next music. And so the music was over the music. Every voice note that he'd sent her saying, I love you. I'm proud of you. I'm for you. And I found myself really sobbing, you know, even though God has healed me from my relationship with my father who on my wedding day bless him. I mean, I love him. We've got a good relationship now. But

37:57on my wedding day said to me, Joe, don't get fat. Your husband will say, you won't find, I know. Your husband will say, doesn't mind, but you will. And you know, that was his advice to me on my wedding day. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, Joe, hold on. Wait. I don't want to move past this. So on your wedding day, your father tells you, Joe, don't get fat. He will say he doesn't mind, but he really does. Yeah. Boy, isn't that projection? Yeah, I mean, that like is now I can go back and unpack that, but at the time, at the time, actually, I think I, I didn't even let it permeate my heart because I'd had so much of that. I'd had so much of that. And so although God has healed that, and even he's healed our relationship, there is still a wound because I watched that video of the girl dancing with her dad and him sending these videos, sending these voice notes and think that was never my experience. That's sad. And like, maybe you, you look at how you

39:01point to your kids and think that was never my experience. That's sad. But God is so gracious. Yeah. Can I switch from being interviewed to put on my pastor hat mode real quick and be your substitute pastor just for about a minute? You know, your earthly father, when he dance with you, may have said those things. But your heavenly father tells you that you are the bride of Christ. And Jesus did not go to a jewelry store to get your reign. He went to a cross to give you his life. And he dances with you and he speaks over you that you are my father's beloved. You are perfect in me. You are loved in me. And I will never leave you nor forsake you. And what we missed out on

40:01earthly dads, we get back doubly from our heavenly dads. So true. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you. You can see it's a wound, isn't it? Because you're like, oh, that's me. And I need that and receive that. Thank you. And I believe that. And that's the thing, isn't it? I believe that. And I do. I remember a guy saying to me, he was a pastor of mine when I just become a Christian in my final year of university. And he said, God, your earthly father didn't what you haven't had a great experience. Sorry, God, your heavenly father, you haven't had a great experience with your earthly father. But God will give you a double blessing and double portion. And I feel like that's been the story of my life. And just the outrageous love of God that nothing can separate you for from. And so I imagine people listening might feel connected to some of these stories. And it's good, isn't it? Knowing because it's very easy to think everybody's got it together. Everybody came from all of these generational blessings and all of this good stuff. But if there is people

41:06listening, which there will be. So if there is someone or people listening today that feels starting their trauma, their grief, maybe they've got their own version of my wedding, my dad said there's or my, I saw my dad putting my drunk grandfather to bed or whatever. And they're wondering, can I really heal? What do you hope that they'll experience as they journey through your book time to heal as they go through those four points? Yeah. So so here's a couple of things. Number one, overwhelmingly is I want them to experience the waterfall of God's love. It is a supernatural submerging in the waterfall of God's love. That's number one. Number two, and my daughter taught me this phrase. She's very wise. Healing is not linear. Yeah. And so you're still making process progress even when days that you don't feel like there's a there's a theological term called

42:12progressive sanctification. And it simply means this, the moment we say yes to Jesus, we're the very righteousness of Jesus. And then we get to spend the rest of our lives learning to live out who we truly are. And when we don't, it doesn't affect our status. Our status is unmovable. It is unshakable because we're held in a nail pierced hands of Jesus. And so we get to live that out. And so there's going to be tension. There's going to be pain, but it does not mean that you're not healing. And then thirdly, what we talk about or what I write about is what I call the heal acronym, which is the the four steps of being healed. Number one is honest with God. That we continuously be honest with God because God will not heal what we do not reveal. Bring it the is expect healing to be hard, but stay in unhealed is harder. And then the a is except what

43:20happened. That doesn't mean you approve it. Doesn't mean God caused it. But it's but it means that you come to terms when you come to terms with what happened, you stop being a victim to what happened. And then what happens to you, God uses to work a miracle in you and then through you. And the else stands for live from love, not for love. That we live from a God who says, I love you. Oftentimes we kind of think of God this way. So so after church service, little kids will come to me from kids church and they'll bring me a picture of what they drew. And it is utterly terrible. But you know what I say? I say, this is the best picture I have ever seen. I am so proud of you. This is so good. Thank you so much. I'm going to put this in my office, which I do. And they smile and they hug me. Well, guess what? We don't have to come to God with pictures and say, is this good

44:26enough? Jesus grabs us by our hand and he leads us to the Father and says, I'm good enough. And because I'm good enough, my goodness belongs to you. And you can stand with my Father, His presence, His love now and for all eternity. And so I hope that it's time to heal, helps individuals and helps counselors and helps ministry leaders. I pray that people read it in community. I pray that people read it to the disciples, their kids, because we need to transfer generational blessings and not generational curses. The unhealthiness we refuse to deal with, our children will be fighting those battles. It's so true. I say it. I say it in the therapy room all the time. I say it in the person's office all the time, as I'm sure you do. And and there's freedom. Isn't it? It is for freedom that you've been set free. And

45:28yeah, I love that the language doesn't have to just remain in the spiritual realm that it can break through into our everyday ordinary thoughts the way we respect, we react the way that we respond. But Darwin, if readers finish the final page of this work, it's time to heal. What do you hope is different about how they see God? So you talked about at the beginning with this idea of like, I have the big film and then I have the chapters of like, this is how it's going to be worked out. So how how they see God, how they see themselves and their future. Yeah, you know, by way of illustration, when I call people to my office, they automatically, the adults automatically think they're in trouble. And I'm like, I'm the biggest teddy bear right now. What are you talking about? But for so it's like, oh, the pastor's calling me. That's usually how we approach God. But I think a better picture to approach God

46:29is when I'm walking in the halls of our kids' ministries and the kids go past their Darwin and they run to me and jump in my arms and hug me. I believe when they finish this book, they won't feel like they're going to the principal's office anymore. They'll feel like I can go run and jump into my father's arms. Hebrews 415 says that we can approach the throne of grace and mercy with boldness and confidence. So Joe, thank you so much. But before we get off, I'm going to put you on a spot here. My wife and I want you and you bring your husband, bring your family. We want you to come preach at Transformation Church in the summer of 2027. Do you travel to America to

47:31teach? I do. I do. And this, I mean, oh, this is, oh, sorry, right. I don't often get speech essentially. This is an incredible answer to prayer because this is one. So I have a book coming out. It comes out, yeah, August September 22, 27. And all the editors, everyone's based in a America and they're like, you need to get yourself out here. And I'm like, I know, but it's not that simple. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And yes, ma'am, we would. Okay, we want to get you here. You'll be able to, this will, this will be on your book tour stop. And we want people, people reading your stuff. And I just think you would be fantastic for our people. And we've got thousands that listen from around the world. And then plus my wife and I want to get to know you and your husband and build a relationship because we think that your work is some of the most important work in the world. And I hope that what it's time to heal does join along that because if God's people are healed, we can

48:38bring healing to the world. So Joe, thank you so much for your time and friends. Listen, order, it's time to heal for God-given steps to restore life's shadow today. We want to see the world heal. Think of all your family and your friends that could use this book. Don't view this as an expense. View this as an investment that has eternal dividends, your return on investment in people's lives. Joe, thank you so much. And we'll see you here physically in 2027. Hey guys, thank you to the NIN to transform in the church podcast. So listen to this. When the church is transformed, the world will be transformed. This is Pastor Dureen Gray. Marinate on that.

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