Turning the tide on America’s fentanyl crisis

0:00Good day, welcome to the Midday Report on the America Loud and Use Talk video network. We counter-remened with Spin I, your host, Dr. Franklin, music. To our friends listening in the United States and around the world, I always say this, there is no lack of hard-use items to keep our adrenaline going. Our aim, though, is to set out, desact, how the nuances and underlying causes and foundations of the events with which we come into contact now, continuously. So this is another pivot today's show, the Head on Tackling of the Fentanyl Crisis, which is an extremely important topic. I'm privileged to introduce a world's expert on this topic. This is our seventh show together, Richard Baum, served in the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy, ONDCP for two decades, in a variety of positions through five presidential administrations. He was acting director of ONDCP, or Drugs R, from March 2017 to February 2018, and he served in this position as principal advisor to the president on drug policy and worked directly with cabinet secretaries.

1:12He's done a number of other things, obviously, in this capacity. It is tenure as acting director, he served concurrently as executive director of the president's commission on combating drug addiction in the opioid crisis. Director Baum has both undergraduate and graduate degrees from Georgetown University, as well as a master's in public administration from the University of Colorado. He's adjunct professor of public policy at Georgetown University, the court graduate school. So he has recently published an incredible book. I call it incredible. I read it, I reread it. In terms of his work and everything else that informed this new book called Inside America's opioid crisis, 12-Hard Lessons for Today's Drug War. It could be purchased at Amazon.com, Bloomsbury Publishing, and major retail bookstores. So he's met directly. He's had his boots on the ground with key household name leaders, some friendly to the US, some not so friendly.

2:20But again, director Baum, it's been a pleasure speaking with you before, and of course now all of our previous shows. So thank you so much for joining us. Dr. Busey, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate your focus and your audience interest in the... Oh my goodness. In the opioid crisis, as you know, since the opioid crisis started a couple of decades ago, over a million Americans have died from opioid related overdoses. Still, even though it's very encouraging that the overdose rates have dropped to 70,000 from up to almost 110,000 in 2022, it's still a football stadium worth of our citizens dying each year. It's really an unacceptable cost to the country, and there's a lot more we need to do to help more people before they face the same very sad fate. So thank you very much. Yeah, that is a sad fate.

3:21No, 100%. Thank you. We all owe you an incredible debt of gratitude. Well, this is just a quick pharmacology lesson for myself too, for our audience. So natural opioids, such as those derived from the opium poppy plant. These are morphine, codine, opium itself, and theobain. But semi-synthetic opioids, which most are more related to or can identify with, these are made in the laboratory by chemically processing the natural opioid. So these are drugs like prescription narcotics, oxycodone, oxycontin, hydrocodone, hydromorphone, oxymorpolyth, all of the oxys and hydro, heroin. Now, the synthetic opioids, which we're going to be talking about, particularly fentanyl, they require all of these required precursor chemicals. So because synthetic opioids are manufactured entirely from chemical precursor ingredients, rather than being refined from natural sources like the opium poppy, they're created through a multi-step chemical reaction, plural.

4:37So fentanyl, it's 50 to 100 times more potent than morphine, and specific analogs like carfentanyl, which is used for veterinary, veterinary means or reasons, astral fentanyl, butyl fentanyl. It goes on and on, we have tramadol methadone, we have the nitrazines, or fizzines, which are 10 times more potent than fentanyl. Yeah, these are like every week, there's new chemicals coming out. But I want to highlight what Dr. Dr. Baum is working with now. United against fentanyl, it really took off this particular group, it's wonderful. To nonpartisan, nonpartisan nonprofit organization, it was launched just two years ago, 2024, by founder and president Paul Martin, who has a 30 year background or more, non-profit work. He established a grassroots organization, it was interesting, after looking at witnessing the devastating impact on illicit, well, holivitis illicit.

5:41fentanyl, except the ones in the hospital and the operating room and afterwards post-off. But the crisis in rural, northern, New Mexico, and he realized the urgent need for unified public awareness. So how did you get involved in this? I mean, other than your incredible ties and your work for so many years in it, director. Yes, it's a great question. As you mentioned, I teach at Georgetown, one of my students, Jacob Lungel, who's now the chief of staff, he died against fentanyl, doing amazing work to help the organization. He read my book in my class, and because he was doing some work for United against fentanyl, he brought the book and some feedback from my course to Paul Martin. And Paul Martin reached out for me to have lunch, and we talked. He asked me, I told him about my book and my recommendations, and he explained to me that they're doing some policy work, but they don't really don't have the depth of background.

6:46And they wanted to adopt some of my recommendations, more United against fentanyl to try and drive a productive change. And so I joined the advisory board, and then later I was invited to formally join the board, and I couldn't be more proud to be in this role of supporting United against fentanyl's work. They're doing a major event in Washington, DC, September 26, which is a policy summit, which we could talk more about later, and they're also organizing these walks, walks for lives, which are led by impacted families, moms and dads who lost a loved one to the overdose crisis. And on July 11th, all over the country, there were over 100 walks. And that's amazing. That's amazing. Yeah, incredible. This sort of parent-led movement, people are so passionate about sharing their loved one's story and getting out there and trying to give back so other families don't have to suffer this horrible pain of losing someone to an overdose.

7:58So the Indians are usually adult children, sometimes younger. And so people are gathering coming to Washington September 25th and September 26th. The walk for lives is the morning to the 26th, and in the afternoon, so many of these families and parents, as well as Washington policy experts and others. Like me are gathering at Georgetown University on the Capitol campus, and it's free for people to register and join us because we will be listening to parents discussing key policy and looking forward. You know how Washington is, Dr. Musio, you've been in the area of wild. It's always what comes next. And of course. Of course, I'm interested in what's going on now, but I feel like it's important to look ahead around the corner. We're going to have an election in two months. They'll be a new Congress.

8:59And then the presidential campaigns will be starting up. And we want United against Fetanyl to be talking to the campaigns and asking, sharing our ideas, our initiatives to drive change. And asking them to include biting the drug crisis high on their agenda as they put together. Absolutely. Absolutely. So we have like a certain interrupt, but for example, we have so Philanthropic type of thing, but this is life and death. And we have now organized a other organizations in different fields and walks of life like Matt and mothers against drunk driving. And that's huge. And then illegal killings of Americans. And by the way, a lot of this is from, well, it's all illegal. I don't know what's coming in, but focusing on this focusing on this, you, I found this interesting. I thought that there were three, but it looks like five pillar approaches because it really encompasses it.

10:07Like you said, it's a, it's a social movement. It's, it's focused in on it being mainly a US problem, although I'm sure it's all over the world. And, but, but the deaths are astounding. And, you know, from these individuals that you work with, they have such a breadth of knowledge. Did you come up with the five pillar approach yourself? It was, it was a collaboration between me and the United against Federation, a small team. But and what we try to do is take from my book, the recommendations and pull them into key, thematic areas. And I think, I think we, they did a good job. And I think the, as you know, I believe this is time for a new United Nations Convention on synthetic drugs. Oh, 100%. Because the last convention was 40 years ago before we ended this modern era with quickly evolving synthetic drugs.

11:15And I could continue talking about some of the other pillars, but I'll give one more example, because I know it's something you feel important, feel as very important. Is that we don't do enough for drug prevention in this country. No, no, no, think this much into the crisis that it would be a priority for every student in the country in grade school and high school would have age appropriate curricula. Yes, on evidence based drug prevention. And those curriculum exist, but we don't fund it so that there's only a moderate percentage of students who were giving that education to. And it's so it's so sad because it is early intervention when you teach kids about the risk of taking pills, the risks of damaging their brain from alcohol and drugs at a young age, it really makes a difference. And one of the things that we call for one of the pillars is to say we need to educate every kid about the risk of drugs and not be satisfied with the status quo.

12:26No, no, I'm going to name the pillars because and then I'm going to try to synthesize these pillars. But just like you were talking about right now, provided we student evidence based prevention, that's number one. Number two, honor survivors. Number three, make treatment easier to access than the illegal drugs for build a recovery friendly America. And then five disrupt, of course, the illicit fentanyl supply. Actually, that's number five, that's number five. So if you synthesize all of these front, if you look at it kind of a distillation, prevention and education, prevention and education, and I often ask where are the parents and maybe I'm inappropriately asking that, but that that's like me as a parent, you as a parent. That's the first thing that comes to me is where are the parents? Am I wrong? Am I wrong?

13:28No, the parents are the backbone of this group United Against Spent No. They led these hundred plus walks in July and they're coming to Washington. Right. Right. And they, they, and I think this is why I'm so excited to be part of United Against Spent No. Could it be combining the powerful and painful experience of these families? Rich, sorry to wrap up. What I meant is no preventive wise, preemptive wise. Where are the parents? I mean, now, yes, they're a key in your organization. Unfortunately, they had to suffer quite a bit through the death of their children. But where are the parents beforehand beforehand? And again, I may be looking at this in a wrong way that the problems become so out of control that even, even, you know, very well established and structurally healthy families still have this problem.

14:29Dr. Muzio, I now I understand better your question. It's difficult for to teach young people, especially as they get into high school and become adolescents about the risks they face because young people think they're going to live forever. And they don't like anything that violates their autonomy and decision making. And I, I'm a close reader of the research on drug prevention. And I believe that what's necessary is this layered effort that includes communications from parents and family members about the values of your family, I'm not wanting to damage your brain and hurt your future. And that's what I always told my kids about, you know, I hope you never use drugs, but for God's sakes, if you do, you have to wait until your brain is fully developed. I know I'm talking to an expert in this area, but 25, 26, you know, at least through college.

15:31Not because, because whatever aspirations you have, they will be undermined or damaged by using drugs at a young age. So, 100% yeah, so yes, families are important. They need to speak to their kids about this, but you have to layer it. Families, community and schools need to have all of it. And what you can do in a school, which is part of doing a home, is deliver a curriculum to have exercises, use some of the lessons in behavioral therapies and, and sort of a doing class exercises that really reinforce it. How much time do you think, well, this is going to be a problem that I mean in terms of headwinds, they may give you problems with this, the teachers and administrators saying within our curriculum, how much time do we really have to to, although I think it's, it's an incredibly worthy effort, but how much time do we have in our curriculum to dedicate to this?

16:31They could fit this in a home room in their health classes to integrate it. You know, there are, I mean, we know the data and we know that there are a lot of young people started without the hall and marijuana and curious and experimenting with drugs. And also the, these sort of educational programs teach other decision making and thinking skills, critical thinking skills. Good point. Good point. Good point. Good point. Good point. Yeah, you're not going to need half the school day, you know, you can work day. No, I actually, like you said, home room, even short quality time in terms of succiveness would work and it doesn't, yeah, you're right. So, director bomb, hold tight and audience hold tight. We're going to go to commercial break and much more follow up feeling off since COVID. Try the wellness company spike detox trio packed with nato kinase, bromelain and turmeric to help boost your immune system and fight off harmful spike proteins bounce back with energy and clarity.

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18:36America out loud.News is the antidote to these poisonisms. America out loud.News is that place to awaken your heart, soul and mind to the out loud truth. We are back. I want to synthesize this for these five pillars. You tell me if I'm correct with this. As an example, what I'm synthesizing out of this is stop the Chinese government in terms definitely. I think they've been better, but in terms of the precursor, the trading and illicit ascending to Mexico, illicit precursor chemicals. Stop the cartels. Cartels are very, very powerful. Stop the dealers. Of course, stop the students and the individuals who are in the US who are taking this. But on the other hand, acknowledge that no individual or community is immune regardless of the zip code, regardless of the background.

19:41So a single counterfeit pill, just one can be fatal. Stop the stigma too. I wish that weren't true. I wish people had a little bit of running room if they make some poor decisions and make some mistakes that they could bounce back. But unfortunately, some kids, they get a pill. Maybe a friend tells them it's Xanx or something. And maybe they generally think it's Xanx. But if they ordered it on social media, it may be a fraudulent pill with powerful, dangerous fentanyl or fentanyl analogs in it. So there is a lot of risk. I don't like to use scare tactics because we know they're not that effective, but we do have to be honest. We do have to be honest with kids that they just can't take a pill from someone who gives it to them. Or they can't just buy it on the internet. We need to ask your parents or see a doctor and get a prescription, get it from a pharmacy.

20:42Of course, nobody wants to stop people from getting a medication they need. But don't be buying it on social media. What do you think about this? They say the neuroscientists, the neuroscientists, the brain is really not completely developed until your early 30s. So I gather part of that would be poor judgment. Now, we all employ poor judgment during parts of our lives. That's how we learn. That's how we learn from bad judgment. But you know, bad judgment can lead to death in this particular case. And I know you're not and neither am I. But do you think that there's an element of this that the brain is not developed? That's my, for example, 16-year-olds are driving 17-year-olds and that's why their insurance auto insurance is so high that such a high risk of accidents. But maybe there's, you know, there's dovetailing here. There's parallels with what I believe we need these comprehensive efforts against for getting a message out to kids, family, community, schools, and also a media campaign.

21:57And I, you know, I'm for whatever works. And so I think people should test these messages. But I know for me what I tell my kids, just repeating myself a bit. And I encourage other families to try this too is say, listen, for your own aspirations and dreams, don't cut your IQ. Don't live at your capacity while you're getting through high school and college or whatever you're going to do after high school. Give yourself a chance to grow up and dream your dreams and live your life. So I'm hoping that people could listen to that. But it's important. And I think people may not major to assume that, hey, the schools have taken care of it. They're funded to take care of them. They're not, but they're not. And until until they are, we're really ill serving our young people. These are these the people of the next generation, the fentanyl generation, as I call them in my book. And we need to protect them. So they not just survive, but they thrive and help build the future.

23:01Now since this inception, just two years ago, the organization that United Against Fentanyl, it's built key initiatives to really scale its outreach across the US. And this is very impressive. So what I'm looking at. So for example, Walk for Lives campaign. And this is across all 50 states. The DA National Partnerships in June of this year, the DA. What I see here, they formerly partnered with United Against Fentanyl with what we just talked about Walk for Lives. The fentanyl help networks. They are, I gather are a. They emanate from this, the ongoing campaign to scale resources accessibility across every state. And just say never add because I love instead of just say no. Remember, just say no. Just say it was Ronald Reagan's. No, just say never add this. I love that. So it's a media campaign. I gather. But you tell me.

24:06You know, Dr. Muzio, I'm so glad that you recognize it because I didn't build this. I'm joining the group as a developer and helping with some of these policy initiatives. But they have a superpower, which are moms and dads and brothers and sisters and close friends who have buried a loved one. And they want to give back. They want to remember. They want their loved one to be remembered. And they also want to give meaning to that loss of their loved one by getting back. And so they are so I've seen them. You know, you mentioned Paul Martin, who's the founder, how moms and dads embrace him and tell him how this has helped me heal and help me grow and evolve and give back after the horrible, horrible suffering. So one of these superpowers are the moms and dads and the families that are leading these walks and leading this movement for United against fentanyl.

25:09But another thing that we're doing is focusing on changing legislation and appropriations by having developed a sort of an online system. We're not the only one who does this, but who can actually help facilitate families from all over the country from all the congressional districts, get letters, specific legislation that's needed. One that we're working on now is Tyler's law, which would require people, hospitals to test for a listed fentanyl when someone is admitted to the hospital with a suspected overdose because you think we'd be doing that, but we're not. So that is one thing we're doing and rallying support for, but also at the state level. And we're building this network of ideas and initiatives both for today and for when a new Congress.

26:09Well, we could write change. Yeah, I mean, just a great segue, but I'm going to talk about that just in a minute because that's become very powerful. By the way, my main hospital does test for fentanyl. Some hospitals do the vast majority do not. The vast as you were saying, the vast majority do not. So yeah, that would be, and then there's there's some overlays to fentanyl may when you're testing for in the urine, you may get false positives, you may get false negatives. But nonetheless, nonetheless, it's a very important start. I'm going to go through the death because whenever you look at statistics, the statistics are often skewed one way or another, but when COVID started, for example, 2020. Now, I'm looking at government statistics of synthetic opioids other than methadone, okay, synthetic opioids other than methadone. So includes fentanyl and others, but mainly overwhelmingly fentanyl. So 2020, approximately, and you may have different statistics. And I think you do. So these are very conservative numbers, 5000 or 57,800. You go to 2021, big jump.

27:2170,600, 2022, big jump, 73,800. Now you quoted 108,000. I believe your numbers more than what I'm reading. 108,000. That's because I was using all overdoses, not just the opioid. All overdoses. Okay. But again, the majority, the majority being illicit fentanyl. Right. You go to 2023 levels off at about 72,700. But look at this. 2024, 2025, 47,735, 38,000 or potentially 70,000 all overdoses. So there's been a decline, which is good, which is good. And I gather reasons for that. Maybe naloxone. More people are aware of naloxone. And there's been, I see these advertisements, which are much, much better than I was talking you off air about drug or direct to consumer pharmaceutical advertising, which I'm writing about that. That I don't like so much. But naloxone. Yes.

28:30And you tell me that you have one in your car. You have a cartridge in your car. So that would be my guess. But you tell me this is good. I think we need to be a little bit humble in that it's hard to say for sure. But I think the factors you mentioned are important. And also I think the very proactive efforts by the US government to try and disrupt some of these trafficking rings. And interdict some of the precursors and also through some of these negotiations between the US and China in both the Biden administration and continuing in the Trump administration have led the Chinese to ban some of these precursor chemicals. So which is good. Yes. Which is good. So we'll take that. And I think that that that we need to fight on all fronts, right. We can work with the Chinese and what they'll do in negotiations. We can work through the UN and ban some of these substances, which is happening.

29:34But also we need to keep up with our law enforcement and intelligence effort to combat the threat. So I think it's critically important. And in this recommended in this pillar for you not against fentanyl. It includes the idea of a new treaty to update the international tools so that we can not only track and respond and ban more of these synthetic opioids, but also deal with methamphetamine precursors. The whole of America. It's killing a lot of Americans and as a hugely consequential drug. Those precursors are mostly dual use, meaning they have legal uses. And we need to update the rules so that there's quotas and reporting that it's mandatory through the UN on the sales. Because right now, yes, methamphetamine is at a control. And frankly, to be honest, there's no credible strategy to stem that control. We have to update our international agreements so that we can regulate these very dangerous substances.

30:39I was just going to ask you about the UN. And of course, there's all types of views about the UN that they're become ineffectual since the 1950s. They're original that determination or the reasons for their existence no longer essentially exists. And they become non efficacious, so to speak. But so maybe the treaty can go more more UN or individual treaties like Trump is trying to do with Central Americans such now. I have a question. Dr. Music, can I just respond to that? Yeah, please. The United Nations Office and Drugs and Crime UNODC and the International Narcotics Control Board. They do important work. But they're limited by the fact that the conventions are so old and out of date. If we gave them more tools and some resources, not not just the US, but other anti-drug countries. And there are a lot of countries infected, impacted now by illicit opioids, new psychactive substances and methamphetamine.

31:45If we ban together and change the convention, we could push them to do more. And we should use every tool. I'm a huge supporter of DEA and what they do. There's nothing like DEA the way they operate around the world. But let's use every tool. Let's go operate on our own with regions, partners, and let's use that tool and see if that can help us. You can only lead to good. Yeah, absolutely. Now, vision just came in front of my eyes. You know, recently or relatively recently, the bombing that drones bombing the drug cartels, mini-boats, speedboats going to Miami or going to Houston through the Gulf of America and so forth. And even the Pacific. The supply chain. So we were talking about the Chinese, of course. And that's good that it's becoming illegal there to these precursors. On the other hand, that still exists. It still exists. And just like we've been bombing these little boats full of narcotics, what about in Mexico?

32:57So, you know, for example, I'm thinking I'm extrapolating to Iran, the Iran, US Iran and Israel, Iran war. And we've been able through Masood, Masad, and R CIA to isolate where individuals are and eliminate them. Now, these chemical plants in terms of the pipeline and supply chain, would it be possible to isolate these supplies or these these pharmaceutical labs and destroy them? Of course, people will die, but destroy them. Has that ever been entertained by the DEA? This is in Mexico, in Mexico. You know, I'm a big believer in attacking these labs or we can find them, but in a sovereign country like Mexico, it has to be done in collaboration. So if the US and the Mexican government, there are already is a lot of work going on together behind the scenes, but using the tools that US, the US has to identify where these small labs are.

34:02And then working with the Mexican government to disrupt them, dismantle them, ideally arrest the some of the cooks. And I have no problem with attacking from the air these these labs, but it has to be done in cooperation with Mexico, otherwise they have a blowback. But these chemical companies in China are another issue and they need it, it's important for the Chinese government to control them. It's also important for the UN and allies to put pressure on them to say, you know, it's not acceptable for the use of fentanyl precursors to come into Mexico. And it shouldn't be acceptable for a huge amount of these chemicals way beyond needed for a listed use to be used to manufacture. Oh my God, my God, there's a lot of work that we've done. You would not be opposed to aerial bombing of labs in Mexico, but as you say it's a sovereign country. I don't understand why I don't know have we gotten pushback from the Mexican government about doing that.

35:10I think there's a lot of there's a, you know, I'm out of government now, so I'm not pretty. Yes, all this stuff, but there's a lot of behind the scenes cooperation that's going on in Mexico to combat drugs. And just like I said in terms of prevention, how you have to hit it at every level schools, communities, home media, you have to work the supply chain in every level. Yes, yes, yes, it's critical. High seas is critical. What's happening in China is important. It's all all important. Yeah, but working diplomatically is important. It's like let's use every tool of national power to try and drive down this very deadly trade and elicit drugs. Yeah, well, cutting the head of the snake, for example, where is the head of the snake? You know, in reference to the theocracy in Iran, I always try to extrapolate to other other parts of the world and situations. The head of the snake, I guess you, I guess there's many heads of this particular snake. I guess there are. Yeah, the precursors, the precursors are coming primarily from China, some from other places in Asia.

36:14Yes. And, and like I said, there's been some cooperation, but not enough and more pressure needs to be put on the Chinese government. And that's best done in collaboration with partners. You're a UK Asia every country now many, many more countries are affected by synthetic opioids and they were five years ago. Yes, yes, every country is affected by methamphetamine. Yes. And so I think that again, every channel. Yep, yep. Well said, well said. So hang tight everyone. We're going to pause for another commercial break. And we have director bomb coming right back. Oral hygiene hasn't changed in 50 years, but our diet and the way we eat has creating an environment in your mouth for bacteria to wreck havoc on your teeth and gums. For better oral health, get spread dental defense and oral care line designed to combat acid creating bacteria. The toothpaste, mouthwashments and gum all contain xylitol and natural ingredients shown to dramatically improve oral health.

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38:22That's the miracle of spouting and I want to share that with you. Go to thespoutingcompany.com slash out loud and use the code out loud for a special offer. Welcome back. We're back with our director bomb who's been absolutely key and wonderful. So director bomb, I was a little confused but now I know this much better. I was reading about United Action Network which is really an advocacy initiative and legislative arm. I thought it was completely separate but it was it's an arm I gather you correct me from wrong under the umbrella organization of United Against Fent. To support bipartisan bills in Congress and this is 100% bipartisan. I want to go through some of these bills because there's a number of them mainly in the house and senate but so nationally but also if we look at the state level and I'm curious because that also could be very effective.

39:33So here's one senate 1748 HR house 6484 shield kids from online drug harms so at least that's the proposal the bill proposal and are you working with all of these bills first of all? I mean, a lot of this this effort started before I joined but I'm supportive of it and and and I think this is really this difference about not against fentanyl in that it's not just out there doing these great walks and bringing people together and doing these policy discussions which are important. But it's also has specific initiatives that are cross cutting regarding a response to the to the crisis. Now this initial wave of legislation that's on the site on the website is really primarily driven by families who brought their legislation to United Against Fentanyl and asked for support and driving it to enactment.

40:41And so we are so happy to do that and the next thing that's going to occur is as we get beyond the September 26th walk and Georgetown policy summit. We are going to build out these pillars and get more legislation written so that we can drive larger scale change. So I'm very excited about it to have this sort of engine to promote legislation so we're not just generally calling for these things right we are actually working on dread going to draft work with Congress to get legislation drafted and build support so that they actually can be enacted into law because a lot of times you just need to change the law and you need to get appropriations to drive meaningful change. So this one I just mentioned she'll kids from online drug harms that that social media has become very very very powerful mass media is very very powerful so this particular bill my understanding is to require social media and online platforms to design software differently with children safety in mind and it strengthens kind of default protections for miners and limits harmful content.

42:00So I gather that this issue with drugs online yeah I mean that's awful if people are advertising online but this is social media so the regulations are not there about about that. You know these social media companies they could do more yeah and we want to we want to work with them and work with Congress and we know they're not going away it's an important part of many people's lives but just like they've taken action against child pornography and other things this selling of drugs marketing of drugs and and really negative actions. Need to be a priority need to be a higher priority and so that's what we're we're supporting. I guess you can do almost anything almost anything online which is which is really really bad. Here's another one cut off fentanyl at the source and this is HR 747 stopping Chinese fentanyl act of 2025.

43:08We've spoken about that but I have a question after these are introduced I don't know I gathered their different timelines as to when they're voted upon when they're when they're acted upon and I gather some of these just would extend past the current administration I don't know but what's your experience about this before when you were at the White House. Yeah I you make a good point and that's why I'm so excited about how we're building this network because it's one thing if a policy organization and there are many great organizations puts on an endorsement it's another thing with a national NGO like you know against fentanyl can generate can work with impacted families who in all these congressional districts and states and communicate directly so we don't expect no hey they get a letter for you not against fentanyl in Washington and Congress is going to pass a lot no they need to hear you need to hear directly from the grassroots when that's why these walks and building this grassroots network and these very powerful voices of families in fact on the walk for lives which is the which is the morning of 26.

44:29Yeah and before that on a 25th there's a hill visits planned and these are not random hill visits right these are planned with the constituents who are bringing their story about their son or daughter who lost their lives in this congressional district or the grew up in this congressional district and so you get the point it's like direct communication that's much more meaningful I mean look I love putting out a statement and I you know I'm all over LinkedIn I'm putting out on the priorities in my book of course and that's helpful I think sexy environment but when senators and congressmen in their offices hear directly from families that really helps drive change so I think it's a percent our whole combination that network impacted families good legislation and follow up from not to get spent on I'm really optimistic that it's going to drive change from now and then going forward into the new Congress always that's what they will so it's important that's why we want people to join on September 25th and September 26th in particular 26th is the walk for lives it's also in the afternoon that's a policy summit yeah it's a lot of information it's actually sounds exciting and it's called confronting the wave now the the location of it within so I went to Georgetown myself now this is away from the main campus and I want to say this you know up close to the Capitol

45:57I have to say since I teach at the McCourt School which is all on the Capitol Hall campus as is the law school is a growing campus on Capitol Hill at Georgetown and this is actually going to be in a law school building the only law school building Oh it's the actual building okay it's but information that folks can Google summit on thin synthetic drugs 2026 some of the non synthetic drug 2026 the information will pop up on how to register so you can come in person and be part of that conversation that would be wonderful we want to have your listeners there and you'll hear some experts you'll hear from families and we're asking for questions and comments and we just need more voices to be part of this effort to respond to this drug crisis so I was mentioning to you off air that this the show is is heard all over the world and you may get some worldwide visitors from the UK and South Africa and Australia now the law school is not too far from Capitol Hill not too far from Union Station but you can look it up online it's yeah and I'm often asked about parking I believe it or not I'm often asked about parking

47:14so I suspect the law school has its own because when you teach you teach there at the law school correct no I teach at the board school it's a separate building separate building and it's and they're multiple buildings so the best thing to do is to go on the website and see it yes you can met route there's parking in Union Station good point good point and there's street parking on the weekend on and you can Uber you can Uber there it's you know it's it it is your Capitol Hill your Union Station it's a very well-known area of DC and we have this beautiful auditorium the Georgetown has it is given to United against fentanyl for this afternoon yes and we're going to have a great conversation and just would love to welcome more people there and if you're a listener of the Dr. Musio show coming up and saying hi during the during the the the afternoon session because I'd love to you have a hand here from you because we need more people we need more volunteers

48:17involved with this effort informed about this crisis that would be that's wonderful all right I'm going to go into a couple of others and deadly Medicaid delays so so no red tape that this is a Senate bill two five three three no red tapes for addiction treatment act so the the actual treatment the actual treatment right I mean this is a multi multi a prong approach of course to getting it preemptively at the source before it can even occur meaning drug use but once it does occur once it does occur you also deal with that too so there are delays sometimes and people getting the medications they need the treatment they need prior approval required and really you know delays are so risky when so when there's an active drug user if someone is ready to go in and get help or they just had a survive and overdose we can't afford delays we got to get people out right away no right right here's one stop

49:19online here we go again but online pill dealers so s two three a Senate bill this is both the Cooper Davis and Devon Noreng act and it requires online platforms to report if this is going to happen suspected criminal drug trafficking to the attorney general of the U.S. and the office there and preserved related evidence and and so forth this I like I like all of them obviously but hopefully this will develop traction because online pill dealers as you just mentioned pills that thought would be that it's valium or some other pill then it's not it's laced with fentanyl but online pill dealers that's just absolutely abominance it really is yeah it's very very dangerous and rule because people don't know what they're getting and and fortunately you know people are used to bind stuff online we all are and you don't want to get your your medications online

50:25want to go the traditional route and be safe no yes so here's one Alexandra's law a whole repeat dealers accountable HR 780 so it demands the CSA to require a course to warn defendants convicted of fentanyl offenses that future distribution yeah see this is another problem the legislative end the future distribution causing death well of course it's going to potentially cause death a trigger federal homicide charges so when someone is is convicted well it is yeah convicted actually of dealing these drugs then how much time do they get in jail or do they at all so this is another pronged approach of Dr. Muzio it is a complicated question yeah and I just would say and I write about this in my book is if there's a death involved there needs to be a consequence that consequence depends on the individual's role in that overdose so scenarios

51:33differ some people dealers are very reckless and sometimes dealers are friends and fellow drug users and not someone who is off you know trying to make a living selling drugs and so let me just say that when a life is lost there needs to be consequences that are meaningful and that's my view and it's you know it's obviously a sensitive and important issue oh it is it's drugs are very dangerous and every life is precious how I would gather that that it's hard to find these dealers or were more difficult and or am I wrong about this and yeah I mean uh police do do this this is work a day police work they shut down drug dealing rings they arrest traffickers and they follow up on overdoses and bring trying bring to justice those those guilty yes and I

52:35and my my point is when I write about this a lot in the book about it's not so much the weight of the drug that matters it's the individual's behavior and individuals crime so I want I think we all want these significant traffickers these major drug dealers the leaders of trafficking rings in a neighborhood or in a city or a town we want them to pay a price for their crimes so so you of course 100% you're you're talking about of course the cartels and such but then when it comes down to the individual dealer individual dealer uh which is you know a large way that that's I guess the end of the line in terms of the chemical reaction before it meaning figuratively but gets into the hands of the abuser or the the user um yeah I I I are the penalties enough do you think the penalties are enough the either jail penalties and I guess that's a whole another yeah I as a whole another

53:39topic I think it I think that needs to be a lot of thought into what is most impactful to serve as a deterrent and also to make sure that um we bring the justice the most dangerous most reckless dealers yes and I also want to highlight that another one of these pillars is infeasing access to drug treatment we want to make access to care and treatment as easy it is to buy drugs so that people can walk in when they're ready and get rapid access to care less paperwork less cost less complications yes yes from the system and more hey come right in let's get you started we'll say you over the meeting we'll talk to appear we'll get you in with a doctor quickly these delays are deadly uh and we just have to adapt to the reality that these drugs are a very very tough a very very tough challenge for people and we shouldn't be making it so hard

54:39for people to get into treatment isn't that isn't that something that's ironic and yeah here's one HR 3130 bring facts to every school and of course at the school issue but it author would authorize HHS grants for state education partnerships to to implement evidenced based fentanyl awareness programs and and so a lot of these initiatives or or these house and senate bills again start at the level of the school um how many i'm curious most of these drug users and deaths are children but how about adults uh adults playing a role let's say over the age of 30 35 and up of course targeting targeting elementary schools high schools very important but colleges and graduate programs schools not so much but just recently remember a couple weeks ago or a week ago at Penn State that i think it was cocaine it was not um fentanyl there was a ring there of students

55:46and i guess it's it's easy money isn't it it's a lot of money you know this is a big sprawling problem most overdoses are adults they're not children but we saw it over the last several years a increase in overdoses and then a plateauing uh at uh uh still at a worrying rate uh so i think that the there needs to be a focus both on young people uh about fentanyl pills and other dangerous substances but also on adults anyway thank you everyone for listening i enthusiastically look forward to being with you weekly on the counter momentum of spin where we will endeavor to address and work towards solving the problems of the world not only the united states but please note that this show and all the shows on america out loud talk radio go to your favorite podcast network uh within 24 hours apple podcast spotify pandora you have tune in you have amazon i heart radio among others i have a great day and god bless you

56:56you