Tuxedo Park: Courage, justice, and the power of truth

0:00Welcome to AfterDog on the America Out Loud news network. I am your host Rob Abharper. I am glad you could join me tonight as we always say Andrew and I. We do appreciate you setting aside time your busy schedule after work to come and listen to our take on current events entertainment news breaking news. What have you we do appreciate it. We also appreciate when you share the broadcast being us tag us if you're putting it on Facebook or on Twitter or X formally known as X truth social even if you decide to put some of this on TikTok we do appreciate it because we can't do this without you. I'm going at it so little tonight but I do have a guest on with me who is on our show previously when he was running for office my guest tonight is Thomas Kenner. He is in a

1:00defense attorney here in New York. He's also an author author of the book Tuxedo Park which we're going to talk about and some of you might remember that he also represented Daniel Penny some years ago so we'll talk a little bit about that but we definitely want to talk about his book Tuxedo Park. I ordered my copy today I can't wait to get my hands on it I did read little snippets of it and it sounds like it's a little bit of a murder mystery thing that's going on here small time boy goes up or meets a girl they go to several ways and then they reconnect so we're gonna ask Thomas a little bit about that how did he get into writing usually the story is what I've heard is that if you're a journalist you become an attorney this is an attorney who became or is now pursuing is an author so he's doing both so we're gonna ask about that we're gonna also ask him some of the questions it's you guys want it meets and ask him about am I wrong if I do XYZ if I find a wallet on the ground it has money

2:06on it and if I keep the money can I go to jail I get that asked that question all the time you know or if I'm at a restaurant and someone left their wallet in the bathroom I picked it up I can't find the person do I turn it in do I keep it so all of your questions that you sent to me I'm gonna ask Thomas so without further ado let me go ahead and bring Thomas on Thomas how are you tonight hey I'm doing great Robin it's so great to be back with you and your awesome audience on America out loud after after all these years Thomas we're glad to have you here so we're just gonna get right into it talking about your book Tixedo Park my first question is I know that it's a novel but is this based upon an experience someone that you knew or this you just made this a poll cloth now well you know I guess it's a little bit of a complicated question well it's not the questions complicated but maybe it's a little nuanced you know it is

3:07absolutely a work of fiction and you know for those aren't familiar with the book yet hopefully you will be very soon but it is the story of a young prosecutor who is you know sort of moonlighting on a or or handling one assignment in a county that he normally doesn't practice in and while he's there he's drawn into an investigation concerning his former you know teenage romance from 20 years ago who is abducted within the very sort of historic confines of New York's Tuxedo Park and as he gets further into the investigation the clues start leading back to an individual ultimately becomes the president elect of the United States and he is wow finds himself in a you know essentially not essentially it's it's a race against time to try to bring this individual to justice before he sworn in as president becomes essentially

4:10legally untouchable but you know to get to the question look I've never I've never investigated any presidential front runners for murder conspiracy so it is a work of fiction question but you know what I did learn on my writing journey and I had the benefit of you know knowing you know through my law practice right politically campaign I you know connections I made in life some very prominent people in the literary world authors publicists publishers excuse me you know is that any good writer you know incorporates a lot of their own you know experiences their own history their own you know whatever into their writing so in this case although the story is fictional there's a lot in this book that is at least inspired by things I've lived either both personally

5:11and professionally how long did it take you to put all this together you know I ate that question because it's too long way too long look you know in all seriousness I first came up with a concept for this I wouldn't even say for this for something way back when I was a prosecutor working for Jeanine Piero you know 20 some odd years ago that's right you did what would you need pure right yeah Jeanine you know really gave me my start in the criminology she loves this book she gave a great you know blurb that'll be on the you know future runs you know what once they they print you know do a traditional print runs but yes she really loves it but in the event back then you know the New York Law Journal which at the time you know it was all print it was before you know everything was you know just almost completely online and you know when I first started in law you know every partner at every law firm in New York City had a copy of the New York Law Journal on their desk it was

6:15sort of like diversion in New York Times the fact it was published by New York Times so they used to do a fiction writing contest and I decided you know one year when I was just still a assistant DA you know hey let me let me kind of put in something and I did like a concept chapter I didn't have a I didn't have a middle I didn't have an end I didn't have anything past you know an idea but I condensed it you know into this concept of you know what if you had a political candidate a presidential candidate that was involved in you know something like this you know how would that play out and what's interesting is you know that this is before this is before you know before you're in Trump one you know you know Trump Trump 1.0 and no one had ever really talked you know up to that point seriously about indic a president you know maybe theoretically but it was just not a serious conversation and so much has happened since I actually came up with this idea where it's like kind of life imitating art but once again to get back to your question is you know I wrote this over a very long period of time but it wasn't consistent writing and there were times when you know like I said

7:20I submitted this first chapter became a finalist in the contest I said all right well I maybe I have something here it's not just completely delusional and then you know I wound up I was serving in Iraq I married kids more kids but I never abandoned it so I would go back to it every so often and a few years ago I completed my first version of it and you know of course the editorial process you learn as a new author that that is you know that might be worse than writing it all the editing and then you know getting an agent shopping into publishers getting a publisher getting a deal which was you know one of the greatest you know letters I've ever opened but then even once that happens then you learn that once a publisher signs it up they'll take like another year or so before they actually release it because they have their you know they have a whole schedule of books and they're stable and when they're supposed to come out when the right time is so yeah it was a long process but I'm glad it you know it

8:25was worth it in the end but you got it you got it done right and just looking at it like I said I worked some excerpts mom it does it does draw you in it does catch the reader's attention but you mentioned you said it was part of it was this part of a contest that you did you well what happened was yeah kind of so you know like I mentioned the New York Law Journal's fiction writing contest I don't even know if they still have name or but when I first came up with this it was a big deal you know I was like a lot of attention and it became you know a finalist and that I did and when there's one of the the ten you know the ten finalists and it wasn't the book it was you know it was a short writing contest so I did like concept chapter I called it chapter art kind of laid the lands basically what is essentially in the prologue now to the book you know obviously edited through the years and so forth but you know becoming a finalist and that you know look to be in the contest you had to be a lawyer right so theoretically you know presumably lawyers know how to write somewhat

9:29competently you know well look I wanted this contest and competing against you know hundreds thousands of entrants and you know some of it I'm just you know a relatively young attorney these people writing and all that you know I must be there must be something here and not necessarily a published novel this is very difficult you know to get a novel published but at least gave me the inspiration to kind of come back to years later and say yeah let me see if I can start working on that again and then right no so all those years you have a you have the concept so what you want to write about like you said you started it you want a way you went to Iraq you got married you had kids but still it was there in the back of your mind and I hear a lot of writers that will say that they will start out writing they'll put it away but then the characters are still moving around there's still something more for them to do and then at some point they sit they write it and wham there it is so from that time span until now you got you have to finish product to say okay I'm done why did you choose the

10:33title Tuxedo Park and for our listeners that is a town or an area here in New York City right well outside yeah I mean Tux Tuxedo is a you know fascinating place and you want to talk like really look behind you know a guarded kind of community so Tuxedo Park was a gated you know is a gated community that existed in America before America had gated communities in fact many historians say it was the first it was you know in the 1880s you know the sort of you know the golden age America and it was you know I mean just just the geography is this kind of a hilly you know terribly wooded terrain that's just dotted by these magnificent estates that go back you know hundred and fifty years and it's the kind of thing that you know I'm really not sure you get anything like this

11:36outside like Europe in the United States and a lot of people surprised a lot of people like don't even know it's there and you know that's partially intentional and one it's it's behind a gate to a lot of the people that live there you know aren't they you know don't want to advertise themselves it's an old money very old money place but I became familiar with it and by the way I mean the luminaries that were there through the you know you know any way was there Einstein had spent there part part of the Manhattan project was worked on within Tuxedo Park as a historical book that came out on that years ago you know the Roosevelt's and it just you know you goes on and on and on but you know in the 1980s my uncle was a contractor in that area he built houses and the you know at that time some of the older estates were falling into you know

12:38so they they were subdividing them because of you know just Americans you know as a country we didn't live in gilded age mansions anymore you know taxes and state taxes and so forth whatever the reason you know he would buy like two acre plots there and he would build you know very nice but you know more modern homes obviously and he wound up moving the Tuxedo Park and my grandmother moved into the area as well and I would be kind of slept up there on the weekend as I grow I was a kid I grew up on Long Island maybe about 50 60 miles to Puxedo Park but we my mom would you know take me up there on the weekend and we you know stay over this was her chance to see her my grandmother her mother her brother my uncle and you know frankly I was bored out of my mind most of the time sort of the kids around so what but even as a as a young boy you know five six seven eight years old you know I knew this place is different there's something

13:41going on here and I would go and you know explore and there would be the ruins of all the states and stuff you know in the winter when it snowed we'd slept down the hills of the estates and and you know I knew there was something here so in any event when I got this concept for you know this presidential candidate who is of you know old money and power and privilege and this kind of you know drawn into running for president because he wants to satisfy the will of his Machiavellian father but he has to cover up and in convenient pregnancy you know of a what he's having a fair with and all the good stuff that was made up go ahead yeah I mean this is you know so like yeah let's set it here right because I know this place is part of my child that it was nostalgic for me and I'm like you know there's no need to give it a time frame it is it a time frame that's there or did you just write without it there being a particular era yeah no I did you know I I mean it was you know it's set in modern times

14:47some you know the word or the story starts with the Kent Dawson who is the presidential candidate given some you know big campaign speech at a fancy dinner at the Grand Hyatt and Manhattan and you know that that cuts to the scene of the of his victims who's in sterling as she's being you know followed by a mysterious you know SUV in the dark of night Tuxedo Park coming back from what was supposed to be her run you know around Tuxedo Lake and you know that is current times I'll say and then you know the book though kicks back to 20 years earlier where the protagonist of the prosecutor who ultimately is trying to unravel this and bring Kent Dawson to justice and the victim Susan Sterling you know had this sort of you know teenage hot blooded romance that ends you know under Diffa I want to give away too much but ends

15:50under difficult circumstances and he carries a guilt over you know how their relationship ended up to this point and now he's 20 years later she is back in his life as you know a crime victim somebody who's disappeared and he's compelled to try to you know do everything you can to bring bring her you whoever did it to justice okay this I mean and the lawyer is John Palmer and like you said the the other character is Susan Sterling this is like like I'm reading a a Kennedy type story because we know that they always had these issues when they were out in about but this is a different spin this is taking place in New York as you mentioned and Tuxedo Park and it's published by Simon and Schuster and I would encourage you all you can get your copy of the book Amazon dot com Walmart target or wherever you go online to shop you will not be disappointed by getting your copy of this and reading Tuxedo Park are you going

16:51around for book signings yeah you know it's funny you mentioned that I actually have one out on on Long Island tonight we did one last week on logos books or on the Upper East Side which is an old institution on New York Avenue and it was great they sold out of books and how are the people the people in Tuxedo Park has anyone reached out to your say anything about it they excited about it because you're giving their now their name is out there now you know it's that's a great question Rob and I guess prophetic in some ways because last night I logged out on my Facebook and I got a message from a lady who I get you know runs one of those like you know Tuxedo Park memories or you know and she's connected with the Tuxedo Historical Association okay which you know there's Tuxedo Park and there's the town of Tuxedo and the Lopes and and you know she wants to have me up as a speaker but that was a concern I mean I imagine some

17:56people within the the sacred confines the Tuxedo Park aren't gonna like the idea of right there little hamlet is now being discovered yeah you know I well sorry well folks you're listening to after dark on the America outlaw talk radio network and my guest tonight is Thomas Kenneth as I mentioned he is an attorney and now published author of the book Tuxedo Park we're going for a commercial break what we will be back and perhaps we'll get him to read a passage from the book so stay tuned after this brief commercial break feeling off since covid try the wellness company spike detox trio packed with nato kinase bromelain and turmeric to help boost your immune system and fight off harmful spike proteins bounce back with energy and clarity go to TWC.Health forward slash out loud and use promo code out loud for 20% off your first order oral hygiene hasn't changed in 50 years but our diet and the way we eat has creating an environment in your mouth for bacteria to wreck havoc on your

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19:59and we're back with the second half of after dark and my guest tonight is Thomas Kenneth mentioned he is maternity as well as a published author of the book Tuxedo Park you do want to go out and get your copy today you will not be disappointed when we want to break Thomas was sharing with us that he had been invited to Tuxedo Park which is a one of the oldest gated communities here in America and probably one of the first it's like high-end beautiful place old money he was invited to come and do a reading we don't know if the folks are gonna like the fact that he's now putting their little hamlet on the map and as always happen people want to go and see where the story took place what happened to identify with the different areas so we'll see how that happens how that plays out over time but Thomas is back with us and wanted him to read a passage from his book now before he does that as I mentioned he's also an attorney and many of you I told you he was gonna be on the show and you sent me

21:03questions that you wanted me to ask him and if you go to his site on Facebook you'll see some of these questions that I'm gonna ask on the site and he's a partner the law firm of razor Kenneth and launching attorneys at law so well further do I am going to ask him the first question that I opened up with that someone had sent to me wanting to know if they could get in trouble or if they've broken the law and that question is if the person finds a wallet with money at a restaurant or the subway and if they take the money leave the wallet are they guilty yeah you know that is a question that you get a lot and the answer is no you can't keep it and take the money you know that could be a possession of our theft or possession of stolen or lost property and because while it's contained identification usually it can lead to even felony charges possession

22:07of a full forged instrument and related to the state different states of different names for essentially the same thing so what you should do one of those circumstances is turn the wallet in the first opportunity okay now there was a follow-up to that let's say there was no identification in the wallet just the money same thing you know yeah yeah same same situation you might be sorry folks you can't get a little more a little better ground but generally it's the same goal okay sorry folks you can't keep the money you've got to turn it down even if it's cash there's nothing in the wallet that identifies it is belonging anyone yeah you're probably okay to those circumstances but there's something okay okay okay you know it's something that identifies with the name on it you got to turn it down you can't keep it okay let me see one more here before we get back to the book waivers someone said I'm taking my kid to an

23:13amusement park and they asked me to sign a waiver that if the child is armed that they're not legally responsible does that hold or can the parent sue the amusement park if they took their kid the kid broke a arm or leg yeah you know those waivers I mean you see them at ski resorts and a lot of different places you know look generally you can't have someone completely release you you know or amusement park a ski resort whatever else you can't have someone completely you know release you for your negligence so you know if your your kids are on a waiting on line to go on a roller coaster and someone's still there you know Slurpee and it's been there for two hours and the amusement park new or should have known it was there they just were negligent in doing any sort of cleaning up and someone slips and falls on it you know that waiver is not gonna

24:13save them it can be relevant you know like hey this is it yeah okay you're engaging in an inherently dangerous activity whether it's you know bungee jumping or whatever and and you assume the risk that can certainly be persuasive defense but it's not gonna you know it's not gonna be an absolute catch off in other words if somebody forgets to hook the bungee card up to you know it's anchor and you know you fall to your death they probably slept right okay one more question then we'll get back to the book right here this get this a lot in the political environment that we're in let's say laws that are made or policies that are made a person is on the subway and is pushed and is killed can the family sue the subway station the subway system well the basic answer is like anybody can sue anyone the question is not lost is that lawsuit gonna go

25:18anywhere yeah if you're talking about the New York City subway station subway system you know they you know you're not gonna find any precedent that says that the subway system is responsible for every you know an angel in the tick and unfortunately there are there are many in the subway so if it's just you know your your love one got forbid was attacked by one of the many recidivist criminals that are allowed to roam the streets of New York it's gonna be hard to go after the subway for that okay and one more to tag on to that like you said you can sue anyone but attaching let's say a political person to it because you said well they created the policy can you sue them personally generally not I mean you're talking about like you know a politician who yeah approved the law that is you know makes us all unsafe and there's many of

26:20those now they generally you know don't have personal responsibility and even going after the government's laws is you know it's amazing what the government who passed these ill-conceived laws due to insulate themselves as far as you know immunity and so forth so difficult okay okay there you have it I ask the questions and I'll ask them more as we go through the show today but we're gonna stop there and jump back to the book let's delve back into the lawyer John Palmer and Susan Sterling could you read us a passage from your book Thomas one that you want the listeners to hear yeah well maybe since we're talking a little bit about Tuxedo Park I'll start with something that's a little descriptive of it okay great this is in the first chapter chapter one the gator am lifted allowing the dark SUV to pass without stopping although visitors to Tuxedo Park or the park is his affluent residents referred to it where to be announced the attended dispense with this practice with a nightly parade of delivery vehicles

27:24that ferry members of Tuxedo Park's executive class home from their Manhattan offices the park elites leads understood that some rules did not apply to them the exclusive enclave was only an hour north of New York City but a world away unlike the Anadine subdivisions that dotted other affluent suburbs Tuxedo Park was steeped in history in Old World Charm trolling hills winding our roads and wooded acres cloked occupant homes and Edwardian estates screaming Eastern establishment its list of rich and powerful families included the laurel arts Waldoire's and aster's the three men sat silent their eyes looking forward this was not the first time for any of them although getting past the gate would be effortless they had arranged to have a name placed on the guest register as a precaution the air thickened humidity hung low under the canopy of thick oak trees as Susan sterling was making her way toward home nightfall it provided scant relief from the oppressive August heat that envelope the

28:26Hudson Valley the park's narrow winding roads were less than ideal for jogging its Susan sterling had made her five mile run and nightly routines and she began occupying her family's guest cottage this spring her need to close the chapter on a failed marriage and desire to reconnect with something other than asphalt was why she had left the city in the first place her favorite route went up cliff lane along the Eastern Shore Tuxedo Lake then wound back past the Tuxedo Club toward home the phone call she received earlier had preempted tonight's run but she had followed the same path as she returned from the lake shore well as your wife read the book my wife is about we have four kids 11 through once she's about two-thirds through and I didn't want to read it we got the hard copies so she's she's almost done she's like yeah and what are her thoughts about you writing being an author down

29:26I'm blessed a million times over with you know a wonderful my wife Emily is fantastic she's a great lawyer herself but she's a mom and a wife first and that's the way she prefers it and you know having her you know supporting these different things I do you know it makes all possible it really does so you know I am blessed and I'm not just saying that okay and your partners what are their thoughts on it because again this is going to draw attention to the firm to everything that you're doing everyone's going to look at this and you're going to have some people they're going to try to find a story embedded in that to identify and say wait a minute maybe he was writing about this person we're writing about this crime have you given any thoughts to that yeah I mean there well you know similar to you know how I described you

30:27know what a great relationship I have my wife I have a wonderful well not only a wonderful business relationship and partnership but a wonderful friendship with Stephen Razer who you know we've we've first met in the district attorney's office on the Jeanine Piro we deployed to a rack together we started our practice together you know and he is just we would try the Daniel Penny case together you know so he is utterly supportive just as a friend but even you know in the context of of the business I mean look you know I think that this book is going to be a breakout hit the feedback we've gotten you know from readers and media attention has been you know more than I could have ever anticipated up at this point but no matter where it goes you know it's always good to bring more attention to ourselves to our firm and our brand so I think it only helps in that regard and Alex Lonsdene who is

31:30another name partner in the firm you know he joined us about a year and a half ago I merged our practice into you know his his practice and you know he's great too I have a known him as long but wonderful guy and he fully supports this because look you know it raises awareness of not only Tom Kineff in Tuxedo Park but Razor Kineff in Lonsdene as a firm as well right now you mentioned that you we had said in the first block you'd work with Jean Piro and she has given the book Kudos what is she doing Mike she's now working in DC I find her to be a great person the job that she's doing but you got to work with her one on one how would you describe her of course yeah I mean Janine is I'm not sure you know I know anyone else like her maybe the president but I don't know the

32:32president personally but she is just really I mean utterly short understands the law inside and out fearless relentless high energy all the time you know I've never seen her you know at downtime it's always up up up and you know the president is really really lucky to have her in her position she's also fiercely loyal by the way you only in our bad side but she is very very loyal to the people who are loyal to her I mean you know look I myself and Steven Razor I spent a few years in our office was a very large Diaz office one largest in the country so we weren't you know we simply weren't around long enough to you know get high status we weren't on her you know executive staff or anything like that but you know for 20 years since we worked for her she's always been there for us and with someone who is that much

33:37stature and that many people that want to get close to them and so forth really says a lot and you know if you want to know anything about Janine look at what she's doing right now because you know she's taking this job on in DC I mean this was not any sort of she'd already been a New York State Supreme Court judge she had been elected district attorney in one of the most affluent largest counties in the country you know she's making a lot of money or was making a lot of money being a TV personality you know if you ask me hey you know you can go be the district attorney of Washington DC the US attorney for Washington DC great you know that that's that's something but for her you know it's it would at the stage of her career in her life it's not something that she you know stood to gain from but she's doing it you know at loyalty to the presidency and at a lot loyalty loyalty to the president and out of love of country and the want to see you know our nation's capital be a safe

34:42place for people and that says it all because how many people in in that arena really they're not for themselves right what makes you decide to be a coming attorney well I got in trouble when I was running for camp when I was running from Manhattan DA I was asked that question by the New York Times report that was doing the feature on my race and I kind of said tongue in cheek well you know it's probably watching those Tom Cruise movies in 1980s whatever Tom Cruise did you wanted to be it you know if you're an 80s kid you know I wanted to I thought it was gonna be a race car driver after a Sunday's of thunder you know and obviously I'm being facetious although you know I look I always liked the idea of kind of putting myself out there and you know not shying away from things whether it was a confrontation or whether it was you

35:42know my teens becoming an ocean lifeguard I liked you know kind of being in it so to speak but on a more substantive level I think you know from from a very young age I was always very troubled by injustice or what I saw is perceived injustice and I was always very vocal you know I always had a mouth on me I think part of it was I grew up in a household where I was the only young kid my brothers were you know more than a decade older than me because of my my parents had remarried so I kind of always had a you know use my voice to be heard and then as I got you know further in school and I learned about things like you know racial segregation yeah I can still remember to this day like looking in my if it was like my seventh or eighth grade social studies book and and

36:45Mad the Massive people public schools where I went and there was that picture and I think it was I think it was when the schools were desegregated in little rock and you know there's a picture of I think Norman Rockwell actually did a painting on it and it's this this young black girl and she's yeah I don't know nine 10 11 years old if if that and she's holding her books and she's walking you know under police escort into the school house and you know you see these well dressed you know white women men and you know just screaming you just see the hatred in their faces and I remember looking at that being you know wanting to like kind of jump in the picture and get my hands on those you know white adults you know like how could you do that I mean you know this poor girl

37:47you know so things like that you know really bothered me and you know I I felt like I could be a you know I wanted to advocate I also was relatively good at you know speaking and making my case and I could write generally well I couldn't do much else though but it could do math or science so a lot of us got you know born out of those kind of things you know okay well folks we are up against another commercial break we'll be back with more the conclusion of our show with Tom's chemist will find out what he what's next for him and asking a little bit about the trial that he represented Daniel Penny you listen to after dark and the America outlaw talk radio network will be back after this brief commercial break during treatment the structure of tap water gets messed up yes we have to purify water but what are we doing to fix the water structure so the body can actually absorb it that is why we created our lab certified structured water devices these devices restored water molecules

38:48back to their natural structure just like a mountain stream making them highly observable it's not how much you drink it's how much you absorb that counts better hydration better energy all day get one for your home or on the go at chemical free body dot com for slash out loud for an exclusive discount that's chemical free body dot com for slash out loud I'm Doug Evans author of the sprout book and I'm also a father with a three year old daughter and that's why we grow sprouts did you know that you could take seeds add water and get fresh organic vegetables in three to five days without soil sunshine or fertilizer for under a dollar serving that's the miracle of spouting and I want to share that with you go to the spouting company dot com slash out loud and use the code out loud for a special offer and we're back with the last half of the show and I am here again with Thomas Kenner the author of the book texito park you do want to go out and get your

39:52copy as I mentioned Barnes and Noble target Amazon you can get it there and when the podcast drops I will have a link on the pie class that you can click on and order your book so get out there folks and get your copy of texito park now but when we went to break Thomas was telling us why he decided to go into law and he shared with you the story of Ruby Bridges from Little Rock 9 and Little Rock Arkansas the desegregation case and I thought that was rather I found that to be really interesting because this is my first time ever hearing someone to put it into that context as to why they decided to become a lawyer or to go into public service so I'm glad he shared that with us and that leads me to my next question that I want to ask him that many of you had wanted me to present to him also so we'll see how much he can share with us about this and this was the Daniel Penny case whereby he successfully he and his partner were able to have

40:54Daniel acquitted for in my opinion Daniel being a doing what anyone I would think would do in the face with what he was up against in the New York City subway to restrain a passenger who had threatened all of the other passengers and if I'm correct all the passengers said that they were afraid of what this man was going to do to them and this young man Daniel Penny stepped up and I often think about that for myself when I'm on the train and I'm there with my 13 year old son who's the time was a ton and my young nephew if someone were to accost them or to act erratic what what I do because we know that sometimes if you get involved you'll get sued they will come after you and before I ask you about that that's another question someone wanted to ask if they see someone stumbling who's drunk and this actually I actually encountered this and fell in the middle of the street okay traffic is going I wanted to go out and help the

41:59person to move them over to the side but then I thought if I touch that person and if the ambulance comes up and if they say well he moved you the wrong way that person could sue me so instead of going to help the person I just stop traffic and someone else called 911 had I moved that person and that person said or someone said well the way he moved you this is what resulted in your injury am I legally liable or like you said you can sue anyone but what are the damages to myself have I put myself have I opened myself up well yeah I mean it does go back to you know you can sue anyone but it would be very difficult you can see the situation where okay that would prevail because you know negligence is all about reasonableness you know where someone's actions not necessarily perfect but where they reasonable under the circumstances you

43:00see someone lying in traffic not only is it the reasonable you know in a stupor estate is not only is the reasonable thing to do but it's the right thing to do now could something you know go wrong in a wildly unanticipated way yeah but you say look that's not for that was before see of all and that wasn't negligence okay so it's all about the negligence so so what I did and like I said what I did is that I didn't touch them I just went on the street and I stopped the traffic for someone to call 911 because there was that fear that if I were to do something then they will sue me and say what he did this and it's because of him that he resulted in this accident so okay so that's good to know now pivoting back I mentioned to our listeners that you were one of the representatives for Daniel Penny in 2023 when he restrained Jordan nearly and a radical Muslim and after he had threatened individuals on the subway my question for you was what was that like for you yeah I mean it was

44:01you know obviously it was a whirlwind you know we've handled high profile cases before in New York City and beyond but nothing that quite rivaled this as far as the notoriety the case got you know and it was you know more than just the publicity it was a case that you know I felt very personally strongly about that's that sometimes can be dangerous because you know sometimes as a president whether you're a trial attorney or a doctor in an operating room you know you got to kind of compartmentalize your emotions and stay focused on your job but you know one of the hardest things to do in law criminal law the question I often get is why do you represent people you know are guilty well the hardest thing to do is represent someone you really believe in their innocence because who is also a very virtuous person and that certainly describes Daniel Penny as much as anyone else I met my life because you know

45:08if the person is guilty and they're they're not a great person they deliberately the bad thing but you still got to do your job and to the best your ability and I didn't that scenario necessarily love all my clients or love what they've done but you know if it goes wrong you know you'll you'll get over it you know you did your best for them but Daniel Penny's case if he was ever convicted I'd be waking up in cold sweats for the next 20 years so it added really to the pressure of the situation well they just goes back to like you said when you saw the picture of Ruby Bridges and Little Rocks Little Rock 9 showing that compassion and seeing that this person isn't being treated fairly and then you look at the case you took on with Daniel Penny and I guess thinking the same thing this he's not that he's not being treated fairly he's being accused of something that he didn't do deliberately to kill this man as the media kept saying so what was the pressure like for you getting up every day

46:14hearing these stories from the legacy media they were trying the case they were they were telling us he's guilty and you can't see this any other way but here you are like no that's not it and you couldn't say anything so what was there a gag order on this case no there was still gag order but you know one thing that we were one thing that we were determined to do and I think you know it was fortunate that you know both Stephen Rae's and I have very experienced attorneys I've been dealing with the media for you know 20 years in New York City and beyond and you know if you had a less experienced attorney or one that was more you know cravingness of the spotlight you know maybe they'd run on in front of every television camera to get themselves in the news but you know that wasn't what we were going to do it wasn't aren't it wasn't my desire and and you know even if it was I still would do it because we had up we had a state focus laser light focused on the mission you know that's what you'd learn in

47:16the military so we did speak to the media but we we we were very determined early on only to speak to the media when we felt that it could there was a need and it and it was purpose-driven and we had to you know there was a reason for doing other than say hey look at Tom Kineff on TV you know there are attorneys that will tell you and I think this is wrong and wrong headed and I think that they're equally you know they're almost as bad as the ones that run right to the camera oh I'd never speak to the media never speak to the media but that's not a good strategy and here's why if you look at Daniel Penny's case we as you pointed out Rob we had people prejudging his guilt um you know from from the media to people of great influence um you know celebrity class politicians the Al Sharpton is the world right up by the way to the governor of the state who came out and basically condemned their client before he'd been arrested so the notion that you're not

48:20going to have any rebuttal to that is you know not in your client's interest because the jury potential jury pool is getting contaminated with one side of the story so you know we did media but we're very careful as we did it you know for first of all I always we always gravitated towards the more left-leaning media why because we're going to be trying the case in Manhattan and Manhattan is a left-leaning jurisdiction to say the least so my first interview on this case was with Anderson Cooper on 360 I've been on with him before I find him to be a reasonable guy even though our politics are probably different I was always Chris Cuomo and you know we did press conferences outside the courthouse but only when there was a real meaning to it we said hey look we have an opportunity year to potentially change this narrative right and I have to admit I mean just watching this and following the case you you guys handled yourself so professionally when you when you look at the

49:23media that was completely against mr. Penny at every angle and we're constantly telling people I mean literally that this guy's guilty and this is the only way you could see it and it then it became a race issue and it just goes back to again what you had said when you saw the picture of Ruby Bridges and thinking you wanted to just jump through and say who's going to protect this young girl and you had all these wide individuals around her all dressed up I'm not going to only imagine how she felt afraid and then I look at Daniel Penny who was an adult but you had the onslaught of the media bearing down on him day in day out celebrities these activists that were telling us he's guilty there's no way around it even after you had individuals to testify that they were terrified they were afraid and that they think mr. Penny for doing the right thing which is protecting them is unfortunate what happened to Jordan nearly but then it goes back to we need to do more for those

50:26individuals who are on the streets who need help we have too many mentally ill they're living amongst this it are amongst is it are causing a lot of harm and oftentimes we're not oftentimes at many times they're giving all this sympathy but no one looks at the victims that are left behind or those individuals who try to stop them from committing a crime how is mr. Penny doing now have are you still in contact with him yeah I actually believe I'm going to see him tonight he's coming to a book signing you know he's doing well you know he's out there and he is working in you know the big investment capital world which wasn't necessarily his career path but you know it's an opportunity that came his way and his career you know ambitions were put on hold for this case so it's great to see him thriving you know but look it's it's it's not something that just goes away even within a quiddle I mean being falsely accused of a crime is a lifelong trauma in my opinion we are still

51:31fighting the civil case sadly and you know we are very confident that the outcome and that will be the right outcome just like in the criminal case but that takes resources and so forth and by the way you know to your listeners out there you still has we still have a gift sent go Daniel Penny fundraiser through razor and kinf and you know that's the raise money to continue to defend the civil case so if anybody wants to support Danny please consider doing so absolutely as I mentioned we will also put that link on the podcast when it drops because as he said it does take funds to defend him and hopefully it will prevail we want to thank you for doing what you're doing in stepping up to represent this young man what's the answer for the future what's the answer for the future for you Thomas Kenneth the lawyer author father husband what are you looking for in the

52:33future now this book like I said it looks fantastic I would it all be surprised if Hollywood comes unlocking but go to use the angel use the angel studio network for the book and now I'm just getting but do you see this becoming a movie yeah absolutely um you know and uh one of the interesting thing is that the PR team did was one of these book trailers which are becoming more common thing now because in the past you can never produce one because the cost would just be prohibitive but now with AI you can do some neat things so they did a a book trailer which you can find online is a website tuxedoparkbook.com which also links the places where you can buy the book but the trailer is up there it's been on social and it's like you know it's unbelievable so the whole story is very cinematic I think the the narrator from the audiobook that's on audible and an apple it referred to it as atmospheric you know so it would lend itself very well to the movies I hope

53:34that happens I don't have control over it but um I'm certainly you know if anybody's listening and is in that biz give us a holler um but no did you Kenneth did you did you do an audio for this book did you read for the book I did no I did not narrate and it was a professional narrator it actually sounds great probably much better than I could okay because your voice is the voice I hear what you have that voice so you know I told that there was actually discussions about that with the publisher but you know it's among other things time is okay precious commodity they wanted to get this thing done so they were all the professional um and uh you know I'm working on a sequel hopefully I was gonna ask you about that a sequel there's a sequel coming okay get that out quicker than this we've been in this take less time and yeah I'd love to see this become a best seller I think it's showing signs that that's in the cards and uh you know maybe deal and you know I'll never stop loyering but uh this is a nice little uh nice little side

54:37hustle if you will great well this this has been a fantastic uh interview I'm glad you uh decided to come on and give us some of your time to talk about the book to talk about some of the legal things that people have had presented to me questions and uh Mr. Daniel Penny and as I mentioned all the links that we've talked about will be in the podcast when it drops so definitely go there to get your book or choose to support uh Mr. Penny and I would ask you uh Kenneth Wants is this all done well for one if it becomes a movie we want you to come back when it becomes a movie and for the second book we want you to come back and talk about that uh Wants this case is done with Mr. Penny we want you to back to talk about it and if he would like to come on uh Mr. Penny we would graciously invite him to come on also uh wants all this legal stuff is over but again I can't thank you enough for giving us some of your time is there anything you want to say to our listeners before we end tonight well thank you I mean thanks for listening Rob thanks for having me um and uh

55:40yeah I hope you all uh you know we'll check out the book it is a fun journey you know it's about it's a political thriller so it takes place in the political world but it is not you know there's no political messaging there's no you know I wanted people to actually have a fun entertaining it's been described as a page burner read and that's what that's what it is so I check it out and also you know lastly a little call to action here I have learned that the uh the publishing industry is very very woke um it's very hard for a conservative politically conservative author even if their work is not political to break through so uh in addition to finding yourself a very very good read uh you'll uh you know be supporting uh people uh like-minded people who are you know contributing to the uh the creative world exactly great and we do need that we need more conservative entertainers and writers that are out there I couldn't agree with you anymore you've been

56:41listens after dark in the America Outlaw Talk Radio Network and my guest tonight has been Thomas Kenneth the author of the book took Cedal Park again do check it out until next time God bless and we hope you'll join us again thank you and good night