Virginia's Military Culture, and How It Created the American Military Culture with Paul Fahrenheidt

Everyone, welcome back to the Old World with Will Tanner.

Today, we're having on Paul Farron Height to discuss a very fun subject, which is the Virginia

military tradition and how it fits into the larger overall British and American military

tradition.

And I think it's going to be a really fun discussion, though it's not one, I know a ton

about going into it.

Paul, could you introduce yourself for people who might not know you?

Yes, sir.

My name's Paul Farron Height.

I've been active in these online spaces for, say, a couple of years now, probably closer

to half a decade at this point, a little bit more than that.

I've served in the National Guard for the last six years.

I've studied history in college, particularly military history and other such topics.

One of the areas that I primarily focused on actually is the Virginia military tradition,

which I haven't exactly been able to articulate in those words up until I thought about

it recently.

And I realized that actually, you know, pretty much any story of the American military

tradition is a story of the Virginia military tradition that I looked at.

So yeah, that's just the brief broad strokes biography.

Great.

Well, to kick it off before getting into some questions, I think this is an interesting

one and an important one to discuss, because in Virginia, you see this really interesting

shift over the 17th and then 18th and then particularly 19th centuries, where you start

off with Captain John Smith and a few adventures like him who are very much a part of this military

tradition, but then the sort of people who become prominent in the colony aren't really

of that sort.

Instead, it's the birds, the carters, the leaves, the Randolphs, almost all of whom are

of merchant backgrounds rather than military backgrounds.

And when you read authors that generally are writing before World War II, they're much

more willing to recognize that and kind of grapple with it, which is fun.

But then out of that, generally more merchant-minded culture and the great plantations being a

part of that, flows this colonial Virginia gentry that most of us who think about Virginia

think of, indeed, sheds those mercantile roots to some extent and becomes much more military

focused, a good while after the Cavaliers arrived.

And then so it's out of that that you get figures like light horse harry Lee, general Lee,

Jeb Stewart, Admiral and Captain Mari, a bunch of figures who are really interesting, sometimes

forgotten when Field Scott, for example, and contributed hugely to America's military

might, military prowess and expansion.

And it's this really interesting story of America's growth and explosion outward told through

Virginia, but it's interesting because it weaves in these different factors.

So I'm excited to have you on to talk about it more and to talk about how it happened

and how it developed.

To begin, I think you said you wanted to start with the late medieval period and the

English military culture that fed into what Virginia became?

Yeah, just to briefly touch on it.

So England retained coming out of the middle ages, what we would call a militia tradition.

You had professional soldiers are actually a relatively recent concept and I would even

argue a time limited one that we're starting to move away from because you have to understand

it's in all times and in all places, it's extremely expensive to equip soldiers.

It's extremely expensive to pay them, to feed them, to purchase their various arms and equipment,

especially if they have horses and other such things.

And so in the medieval period when states or proto-states were largely cash-strapped, they

typically organized their armies around a professional corps.

Initially, this was knights under the Norman military system.

Later on, states would expand it out into more infantry formations, especially in the

16th century and going into the 17th century.

So the most famous example, I would say, actually is the English archers that were famous at

Crassie and Agincourt, they were trained, I'd say, about two hours every Sunday after

church in the Longbow from a very young age, I think as early as 12 is when they started

training with the Longbow.

And this created a residual military competence in the entire population of England, not just

in the nobility.

And this is why the English were able to have such great military successes in the hundred

years more.

And that tradition continues on through the 16th and into the 17th century.

And as the English first start colonizing the United States, Massachusetts and Virginia

as the two earliest, this tradition gets brought over in the case of, actually, in both

because John Smith went to New England after he finished up with Virginia.

Captain John Smith establishes the earliest version of the Virginia militia.

Captain John Smith is interesting.

I'm sure you've talked about him plenty before, but he was a mercenary in Europe who fought

in the Wars of Religion.

Against the Turks, primarily, he was a knight in the kingdom of Hungary.

I think his coat of arms was three heads, three behead, or was the beheaded turkish

heads.

Yeah, the beheaded heads of three Turks because according to legend, he cut off three

Turkish heads at once and some battle with the Hungarians.

And so he was a very famous individual.

And as he, you know, we all know the story of James down, but he establishes the first

iteration of the Virginia militia.

And as you mentioned, as Virginia develops this plantation economy, you have this hierarchical

society, at least the echo of it, imported from Great Britain, from England to the United

States.

And so the officer rolls in this militia, the nobility rolls of this militia start getting

fulfilled by those planters.

However, this militia tradition is, you know, and it's necessary, right?

Because of due to the, due to the, the, the, the Jamestown massacre of, I think, 1622,

1622.

Yeah.

Do the Jamestown massacre, right?

This, this exemplifies the need of a militia in the colonies because you have all of these

very hostile tribes of Indians next door in the mountains to the north of the south.

And so this is why this residual military competence was necessary amongst the English

settling, but it cut to, as a double-edged sword because the Virginia militia was exactly

what was exploited by Nathaniel Bacon during Bacon's rebellion.

This is how he was able to, to gather together as many able-bodied, competent military men,

many of them had served in the militia prior to this.

I think it was required by law every able-bodied man, particularly those towards the border

had to serve in the militia, had to furnish their own arms and equipment.

And so, so this, this militia tradition, right, before a, before any professional militaries

get established on the North American continent, this militia tradition is what the Virginia

military tradition kind of found itself on.

You know, it's an interesting point, and I'm glad you brought up the late medieval period

because if you read about, say, the Percy family and then being the kings in the north,

the guardians of the northern march, always fighting the scots, just constantly, the way

that was structured was they had control over the territory economically and politically

in exchange for furnishing enough military men to fight off the border reavers theoretically,

at least.

What's interesting about that is if you read some of the earlier, you know, pre-World

or one-ish histories of Virginia, for example, the Old Dominion, her making and her manners

by Thomas Nelson Page, he notes that when the bird family, particularly William Bird

the First, was granted a great deal of land around the fall of the James, that was on the

condition that he, the grantee, would settle so many families on that land and in time

of danger, furnish many fighting men.

It was really this feudal remnant that was brought over to Virginia and then the militia

system was intertwined with it.

So you see men on the council of state or the council of the governor, whatever it was

exactly called, a world given the honorary title of colonel, but it wasn't just for fun,

it was also because they were expected to be colonels in the militia.

However, one thing that comes up on that point is that though they were generally able

to fight off the Indians, eventually in these engagements, there were few notable Virginia

military feats for a while.

That didn't really come about until later.

Could you explain that and put the, I guess what Virginia was able to accomplish with

its military tradition in the perspective of this colonial period, where it's after

John Smith, after those really desperate days, leading up perhaps to Bacon's Rebellion,

but before the French and Indian war and certainly before the American Revolution, that

middle period of the colonial Virginia.

Well, I mean, as far as that period, there's not really much to speak about, right?

Mostly the Virginia militia exists to ward off Indians.

You have the wars with the Powetans.

They're not particularly brutal, at least especially compared to King Philip's war

up in New England.

That was pretty much the ward of the knife and knife to the hill.

But for the most part, it does remain latent, right?

Virginia is actually of all of the various colonies that were established in the United

States.

Virginia is actually one of the least threatened after you get out of those desperate

periods in the beginning.

The farmland was extremely fertile, especially as compared to somewhere like New England on

purpose.

It wasn't as swampy or as muggy as further south in the Carolinas.

So what is it?

Virginia, as far as I understand it, Virginia, it really is that French and Indian war that

the Virginia military tradition truly starts getting constructed.

Because again, as you, as you mentioned earlier, you have all of these kernels and that

sort of becomes a substitute title of nobility within the early Commonwealth of Virginia.

It was very much coveted both before and after independence and even retain some latent

prestige until this day, but it's really that French and Indian war that was accidentally

started by George Washington, where the Virginia military tradition really starts its legend.

Yes, so let's begin there.

Could you describe the, I guess the organization of Virginia's military or militia system in

this period and then how Virginia ends up sparking the global conflagration that leads to the

seven years war and all this fighting on continental Europe, but you know through the lens of Virginia.

Yes, so the militias is more or less based county by county, right?

Each and they have even further subdivisions based on certain townships and the like.

But based county by county, men are called up to serve for a certain period whenever the colony

is threatened, right? And so when the, what is it?

When the tensions with France increase in the mid-18th century, George Washington,

and I'm trying to remember what his rank was at the time, I believe he was a captain at the time.

That sounds right.

Yeah, captain George Washington is patrolling up, I think in Pennsylvania territory,

where his war band accidentally comes across a French officer.

And I think this is a very famous story.

One of Washington's natives just kills this French officer out of nowhere.

Completely accidentally starting the the French and Indian war.

The Virginia militia furnishes a significant body of men to act as a sort of auxiliary to the

British regular army, which is deployed in Western Pennsylvania. This is the general

Braddock expedition that we all know of. And, you know, one of the common things that

stated about the militia and they're often conflated with Robert Rogers' Rangers in New England

and in Canada. They're often conflated together that the militia, you know, had this advantage over

British regular troops because they had a better understanding of the land and such. I don't

believe that's true. These militia men were largely farmers, were largely tailors, professional men,

blacksmiths. They were not a professional military force by any means. They trained one or two days

out of seven, typically, or a couple of weekends a month. They knew some basic line order drill,

but they they functioned more as a backstop and as an auxiliary force as opposed to Robert

Rogers' Rangers or as opposed to the British regular army, which were trained professional soldiers.

Something to note about the 18th century real quick is that this is one of the immediately following

the English Civil War and the 30 years war, particularly after the military reforms of

Maurice of Nassau and their perfection by Piccolo Mini. You start to see a return of full-time

professional soldiers as the primary basis of a nation's military force, at least in terms of

land power. Well, in just to add to your point about the militia, one thing that comes up during

this period in particular that's interesting is most of Virginia's leadership group isn't really

interested in fighting. George Washington, of course, is, but he's somewhat exceptional in that

regard. And if you look at how the colony had behaved in the 50-ish years prior, so things like

the War of Jenkins year or Spanish succession, I can't remember when the war of Austrian succession

comes in, but even the war against the fire in the 30s, if I remember correctly, that sounds right.

Anyway, there's a lot of unpleasantness that has some colonial involvement because the Spanish and

the French are nearby and their tendrils are slowly creeping out. Virginia is typically hesitant

to get involved, particularly from a military angle, even against the Indians. And so you see it

more trying to help fund, like, the North Carolinians, is they do more fighting against the Indians,

and it's generally very slow to call it the militia, and much prefers not to. In part, because,

Robert Carter, his sons, that group just at this point doesn't seem to be that interested in

fighting, which is interesting because there is this kind of a cavalier culture to some extent

in the colony, but up until around the French and Indian War, it doesn't really seem to flower into

anything approaching much of a martial culture amongst the Virginia leadership cast. Is that

correct, or is that off, do you know? No, I think that's correct. I mean, the mentality amongst

the planters was that they were larping as aristocrats and the military aspect didn't so much

plan to that. There was some, as you know, like with the Randolph family and the Li's and perhaps

the birds that did have some legitimate blood lineage that they could trace back to some notable

family, but for the most part, even amongst the first families, they were mostly up-jumped

self-made men, the equivalent of they were merchants who farmed cash crops more or less, and who

played it that. Now, over time, though, particularly with the revolutionary war, which is really what,

so let me make a contrast here real quick. When we talk about a military tradition,

a militia tradition is not the same as a military tradition. A military tradition is a tradition

of full-time professional soldiery with a particular emphasis on the officer corps. That is what I

mean when I define a military tradition. Some of the great military traditions of all time, the

British Navy, the French Army, the Prussian Army. I was going to throw out the Spanish, but the

Spanish is a little bit more, it's a little bit more iffy with the Spanish, but these are the

great military traditions that we can think of. You go to, in Prussia, you have the Kriegs Academy,

in England, Great Britain, you have Sandhurst, the great army college, and in France, you have

the Ecole Militaire. You have schools and universities are actually kind of a central aspect of this,

but they don't immediately start this way. But it is a tradition of full-time soldiery. I've made

the claim before, and I'll make it again here, is that American culture broadly is extremely violent,

but not extremely warlike. Warlike in the sense of Americans do not like uniforms and military,

or discipline generally, particularly military discipline. Virginia stands somewhat in contrast to

that, as we'll get into. Most of American military tradition is actually better exemplified by a

state like Tennessee, the volunteer state with this ad hoc militia formation that's meant for a

very particular purpose and then falls away later on. But with the foundation of the continental,

and this is to introduce a tension sort of that will come about, is that in some ways, in many

ways, and almost always, the American military tradition, I would argue, both Army and Navy,

sources from Virginia, is exemplified in some aspects by other regions later, but both

source from Virginia, but also both kind of turn into cultures of their own apart from and separate

from the culture of the commonwealth of Virginia generally. They take on a life of their own almost.

Just to ask for clarification, as you continue with that, on two things. One, I remember hearing in

just getting the general impression that Virginia contributed somewhat less in terms of military men

to the continental war effort during the Revolutionary War, though perhaps more officers.

And second, as you describe this, could you describe how the militia tradition flowed into Virginia

and the American military tradition? Because I think there is a kind of unique thing there about

the officers and the Cavaliers. Just for clarification as you continue, but sorry, didn't wrap.

Sure. To answer your first question, I believe that's true. As far as the continental army was concerned,

the continental army drew most of its body of line troops from Maryland, from Pennsylvania,

from the middle colonies. There weren't zero Virginia infantry regiments, but there were fewer

than, say, the most famous, of course, being from Maryland. That's why it's called the old line state.

And many coming from Pennsylvania and from New England to a lesser extent.

As far as officers go, I mean, many of the most famous officers, it's Commander,

Lighthorse, Harry Lee, others, all came from Virginia. So Virginia is very active in its

officer corps. And I would largely say, I guess that sort of answers your second question,

because you already, an officer corps is inherently aristocratic. And the continental army was more or

less being bootstrapped from nothing. So one of the colonies that had one of the best aristocratic

traditions was more makes sense that this is the colony that you're going to draw on a significant

body of your officer corps from. So that's why I believe the continental army was formulated the way

that it was. But the combat performance of the continental army is just terrible. It loses a lot.

And thankfully, France comes along and allows us to turn tactical defeat after tactical defeat

into strategic and operational success. But something that's notable about the character

of the American army was the general that brought, that was brought in. And this is not

necessarily related to Virginia, but it's important to understand this to see how this,

because this would turn back and start influencing Virginia, as it would influence the rest of the

country, is the Baron von Steuben. This is why the dress uniform of the US army up until recently

was blue. This is why it was blue during the Civil War. It's Prussian blue, right? Because the US

army, the continental army was drilled and trained and disciplined by a Prussian drill instructor,

the Baron von Steuben, that was hired by George Washington. He was not the only Prussian officer

that existed in the US military. But it is really with the, it's not just the tradition of the

continental army, but it's the image and the picture of George Washington as the commander-in-chief

and the victorious continental army that firmly places, you know, in very large part due to

Washington's birthplace, firmly places the center of the Virginia military tradition

and the American military tradition in the Commonwealth of Virginia. And this, go ahead.

Oh, no, I didn't interrupt. Please continue.

Yeah. And this is, what is it? Further, this is why I argue that the naval tradition also

sources from the United States is that John Paul Jones, the founder of the US Navy,

the spiritual founder of the US Navy, and I think the actual founder of the US Navy, when he

immigrated to the United States, he lived in Fredericksburg. And that was the colony that he spent

the most time of his life in. Further, Hampton Rhodes, the, what is colloquially called the 757

today is the, is the greatest natural harbor on earth. And this has had naval infrastructure

present since it was founded by the English, versus settled. So this, this remains, I'd say,

one of the two centers of the American naval tradition as the Hampton Rhodes.

Well, I'm glad you brought up Jones because he's just such an interesting character. He's kind of

like Jeb Stewart of the sea in a lot of ways. He's dashing, but off on his own, which brings up this

other tension between Virginia's spirit and maybe what becomes the American military tradition.

Because on one hand, Virginia seems to have performed very well in doing the sort of aristocratic

parts of warfare that every young boy wants to do. A Jeb Stewart and Mosby's rangers during the

civil war are great examples of that. Who wouldn't want to be a cavalier with Stewart or, you know,

riding around with Mosby. But that's different than the line regiments that really determined a lot

of the war. Not the Confederate performance or Virginia performance was bad during the war,

but it was Stewart that really shone in a lot of respects. And if you looked at, say, Lee's

Peninsula campaign, it was something of a mess because it just, they couldn't get the kinks out,

they couldn't work out. And that happened a lot of times with Lee, where he was never quite

able to seal the deal and finish off the Union Army, even with his great victories, like Chancellor's

ville. But that contrasts pretty strongly with the ethos of the American military tradition.

Where if you look at, say, West Point compared to Santerst, no cadet at West Point was allowed

to bring like a ballot with them to shine their boots while they were there. There's much less of

this aristocratic devil-maker culture about it. I don't think the American military ever had Batman

maybe after the Revolutionary War and the way the British military did. They had orderlies,

right? From the beginning, though, yes, you are correct that there's a much more egalitarian spirit

that emerges particularly amongst the officer corps of the US military. But they do have, you know,

agitants and orderlies and servants of generals even up through the Civil War, even later,

even today, you know, just disguised under different names. But there's not like this explicit,

like, you know, Batman as, you know, you are a soldier, but you're a servant to an officer,

and that's your whole job. That dedicated role does not exist. But it wasn't entirely,

officers are just guys who make decisions and have to do everything else themselves. That wasn't

entirely the case, though, at West Point, that was very much a difference. But West Point is not

the school that I primarily wanted to speak about because with after the Revolution, after the

success of the Continental Army, this is where the Virginia military tradition really becomes

accentuated through its expansion. So the Virginia military tradition also encompasses not just

not just a warfare, but also exploration, right? Lewis and Clark both come from Virginia. George

Rogers Clark comes from Virginia. These great William Henry Harrison, the victor of typical new

was born in Charles City, right? So many of these great generals who lead the Army out West

are from Virginia, are trained or trained in Virginia. And in 1839, a institute is founded

in Lexington, Virginia by the name of the Virginia Military Institute. It was based

partly on West Point, but also partly on the Frenchical military. It's first common

dot was Claudius Crozet, who was an engineer in the Grande d'armée under Napoleon, right? So

this becomes a sort of Virginia response to the MI and also an encapsulation of the Virginia

military tradition and what starts separating it and accentuating it as a both a component,

but also a standalone aspect of the American military tradition. Like West Point, it's heavily

emphasized on engineering. Unlike West Point, it also heavily emphasizes a more... I don't know if I could...

I don't know how to describe its early curriculum as to whether I could say it was more

hierarchical than West Point or not. I would like to think it was because of its location and because

of its faculty that it had as it was initially staffed. But the Virginia Military Institute

becomes exceptionally important later down the line. You mentioned the Civil War earlier,

and we're going to get into that. But another thing I wanted to mention here was that some of

the only other states, the thesis that I developed as I was looking into this before I came on,

the thesis I developed is that the Virginia military tradition was the great military tradition

of the United States. It was as far as states are concerned. They're the only other states that

kind of come close. Our South Carolina, Georgia to a certain extent, although every southern state

could claim somewhat... Texas for certain New England Massachusetts, I think Massachusetts is the

only one of New England, maybe New York, could claim something similar. But none of them really

hold a candle to Virginia as the producer. And I think part of this is because... And we'll get

into it. Part of this is because more warfare, more actual warfare, has been fought in the common

wealth. It's not just, you know, George Washington and the Continental Army and these great

West British work, but more warfare has been fought in the commonwealth of Virginia than in any other

part of the North American continent. And this was largely in the four years from 1861 to 1865.

But more battles, more conflict of armies, more confrontation of armies, more strategic movement,

more reshaping the terrain with the various butterfly effects that that has echoing in time,

occurred within the commonwealth of Virginia. Shelby footness three volume history puts it perfectly.

He says, I'm going to paraphrase, but he says, Virginia was made for war like a chessboard for chess.

You have all these rivers and cutting it up. You have all these towns, these various forests

that are placed in, you know, the whole stretch down the three necks from Washington, D.C.

to Richmond. It almost perfectly looks like a chessboard.

Before we get more into the Civil War, what do you think it was in this period? I don't know,

that roughly parallels like John Randolph of Roanoke's career that made the Virginia

military tradition come about because it is a huge change in the culture of the state,

that a good number of authors know where it goes from being this place. First,

it's more mercantile than to during the revolution having this presence among the officer core,

but not so much among the soldierry to being kind of all the sudden the locusts of the American

military tradition, much more so than Georgia or South Carolina or I mean, Massachusetts largely

just abdicated its role after the revolution and gave up other than in maybe some naval matters.

So why Virginia and where do you think that came from? Because I just want to emphasize for

people who are listening, it is a really dramatic change in the state. It wasn't something so much

that was there before and the way it suddenly becomes there in this one generation.

Well, that's an interesting question. Obviously the war of 1812 occurs and a good chunk of that

does occur in and around Virginia. The surrender at Yorktown takes place there.

What I would like to chalk it up to is that as increasing sectional tensions begin and it

doesn't really get heated until 1840, but you can always kind of sense even going back to the

to the net turners rebellion. Yeah, yeah, back to that point. And that's a big that's why

militias kind of have a revival because they do have this kind of slack period immediately after

independence, but militias particularly in the South have this revival. Net turner kind of inspires

this where now there may no longer be Indians on the frontier. They've been pushed back

well far enough away that most in the east, most in Virginia don't really have to worry pretty

much all in Virginia. You don't have to worry about that anymore, but there is a threatening section

just to the north and there is an entire population of people within that if given the opportunity

will take up arms against us will revolt. A great many this is exists. This happened many decades

before, but I think this was at least in part set in motion by the the first ever refugee crisis

the United States had to deal with where the French planters from Hayden when the Haitian

revolution occurred many of these French planters came to the United States. They went to places like

Charleston, Philadelphia, New Orleans many many of them went to Virginia as well and this created

echoes throughout the South that you you all think that you have dominion over these people. You

think that these people will not be able to rise up against you, but we have the guns of the

nation of France at our back and they were still able to overthrow us and this didn't really start

this didn't really turn into a paranoia until as you mentioned that Turner's rebellion and I think

that deer right it's a justified fear it's a fear that the Spartans had going all the way back to

ancient Greece any any racial or ethnic minority that rules over a larger slave cast has that fear

of a slave revolt and the South it wasn't as you know imbalanced the the slaves weren't even

the outright majority in most places except for places like Mississippi where they were

but that fear did remain further abbey external political pressure of the north

increasingly so as the decade as the era of good feelings comes to an end and we get into the

Jacksonian period and the antebellum period I think this causes the South who sees itself

besieged from within with this potential threat from what they with their whole economy depends

on and besieged from without by this hostile section that desires to eliminate that I think that's

the easiest answer to that question as to why Virginia particularly starts accentuating its

military tradition further the foundation of various of these various military schools I think

adds to that and it cannot be under emphasized the titan the gigantism of George Washington and the

memory of George Washington that cannot be under emphasized a whole generation of Virginia's best

and brightest wanted to go to west point because it was a school that Washington wanted founded

you know it was it was seen as it was seen as this like as this as this great

as this great way to continue the Washingtonian tradition most particularly amongst a young

Robert Edward Lee one other thing did I wonder played into it was the economic change you see in

Virginia over this period where it switches from tobacco to wheat because tobacco required so much

direct oversight of the plantation owner in a way that we didn't where I wonder if it gave them

more time to start vaping the British gentry a little bit more closely I in focus less on some

of the economic issues and more on trying to recover their cultural ascendance that they'd lost

somewhat it's the revolution through this military outlet which then leads into the Mexican

American war which is the next big event and one in which Virginia has a somewhat forgotten but

quite large role could you describe the I guess the way in which the Mexican American war shaped

Virginia's military culture if at all and certainly how it shaped Virginia's military leaders

heading into the war between states in many ways it was a confirmation of this nascent culture

that Virginia was building because both of the great commanding generals of Zachary Taylor and

Winfield Scott were Virginians Zachary Taylor was born in Virginia though he later emigrated to

Kentucky and was elected as president later on from Kentucky but but Zachary Taylor was a born

Virginian as was as was Winfield Scott in this sort of if you remember in the Mexican war there was

this sort of too pronged assault into Mexico Zachary Taylor leading the leading the land invasion

that resulted in the battles of Buenavista and Monterey and then Winfield Scott leading this sort of

revert or not reverse necessarily but this new Cortez expedition landing at Vera Cruz and

doing exactly what Cortez did marching up to Mexico City and many of what is if you go to a list

of names of of of officers of the US Army that served in Mexico it reads like a who's who

of civil war generals everyone is there Thomas J Jackson Lee obviously Long Street

pick it even minor brigade commanders like Tala Farrow and others were present in the US Army in

Mexico the only ones real almost most all of the professional West pointers going into the civil war

were were in Mexico I think Kirby Smith was in Mexico he wasn't a Virginian but but

any Confederate general or union general for that matter who went to West Point and was serving

at the time was more than likely in Mexico it was a massive military undertaking compared to what

the republic had done prior to that point and I to kind of hit back on an earlier point you

may you talked about the the transformation of Virginia's economy prior to this Virginia was

somewhat unique amongst southern states in that it was attempting to transform its economy as

you mentioned the switching from the main crop from tobacco to wheat this was in large part due to

tobacco exhausting the soil of the of the tidewater and this is actually what as you as you likely know

and probably have talked about what was his name long white hair first shot at Fort Sumter

yeah I can't remember is it Edmund? Edmund Ruffin was this revolutionary botanist this

revolutionary agronomist who experimented with reviving soils through various techniques I think

he found out some sort of nitrogen fertilizer that you could use to revive a depleted soil

and this is before he he did his whole fire eater schtick but as Virginia's economy diversifies

right I think this is in large part why somewhere like Mississippi where you have such this heavy

emphasis on cash crop cotton culture which as you said demands so much attention from the planter

somewhere like Mississippi though their regiments during the Civil War are renowned for their

for their fierceness for their tenacity in battle they don't develop this rigid professional

tradition and I think I think when you talk about the the diversification of an economy similar to

what happened in Great Britain I think that's an interesting parallel and one I hadn't put much

thought to but I can certainly see it um one final point before we move on the Texas revolution

other than Tennessee more men from Virginia died at the Alamo than any other state they're

tied with Tennessee for the most per men from anywhere to have died at the Alamo

Samuel Houston who was the first general and founder of the of the Texan army was a Virginia

he wasn't professionally educated or anything but I figure I might as well throw that in there

because the Texas army was not a was not a a militia it was based on it but it was a professional

army well into a cost one thing in about Houston just before I forget because this is also

something where Virginia contrasts with the South Carolinians in this regard and then also kind

of the Texan mindset that is still known today of this kind of push forwardness the Virginians were

much more cautious and serious than a lot of the other southerners particularly the fire eaters

so you have Sam Houston yeah I was just reading the Virginia Plutarch by Alexander Bruce where he

goes through a lot of these famous eminent Virginians and he makes the point that Houston was very

careful and how he managed that war and unlike a lot of the other figures he was willing to weigh

act prudently trying to develop support then attack and he did the same thing economically

after it was trying to develop Texas and this is something you saw earlier during the nullification

crisis when South Carolina is considering seceding but then instead of raising units and being very

serious about a potential fight they're like bickering over where they're going to put the yellow

stripes on their cavalry uniforms which it's funny but it's just it's like not the sort of thing a

serious military force does in such a situation as that and it's something you don't get out of the

Virginians but you do get out of a lot of the other southern states particularly the Charlestonian

type of planter in South Carolina so it's just an interesting distinction where the Virginians have

this serious in this about them in this gravity about them. You know every every deep

southeer likes to trash talk the upper south and say how how the upper south are not real

southerners but then when the bill comes due the the upper southers who do not waste all of their

money on frivolous nothings hey the bill how should I say yeah North Carolina other than like

someone like Zeb Vance but the spirit of North Carolina is very much more similar to that of

Virginia than I find that of South Carolina as is the same with Tennessee and Arkansas to a certain

extent but actually this does bring and you mentioned real quick you mentioned Matthew Mori as a

further entry in the Virginian naval tradition he's the founder of oceanography you know period

as a discipline he's the founder of oceanography he later does go serve with the Confederate

truth but the point of this is is that the Virginia military tradition is not limited to land warfare

many Virginians went to as many Virginians went to enapolis as went to West Point you know it's

it's it's it's it's kind of it's kind of under song because everyone remembers the civil war

and New England perhaps has a greater naval tradition I think even to this day but you know Virginia

what's amazing about Virginia is that just I know this kind of a loaded word but just because

of how diverse of a state that it is it has a little miniature New England maritime tradition

in Hampton roads in towns like Port Smith or Hampton or Norfolk if you've ever been there

you see it you know it's it's very similar in that regard but you also have this this this much

more aristocratic there's a there's a Greek word for it that I escapes me at the time but refers to

a a military tradition of some sort I'm sure someone in the comments will I wasn't classically

educated please forgive me but this actually does bring us into the civil war the civil wars is

kind of the perfect encapsulation of the Virginia military tradition at its most what would the

what would the right word be I don't want to say finest necessarily although I'm sure you

could say that word finest might be a good word but that's not exactly what I'm trying to

count it's probably it's most developed in total accentuated that's what I'll say that's the

Virginia military tradition yeah that's that's exactly right at its most accentuated right because

you have the army of northern Virginia later on and a good you know the the super majority of

generals in that was Virginians both at the at the army head level at the core level at the

division level at the at even the brigade level the majority of commanding officers in that

army were Virginians as a point of is actually a point of complaint for those in the army who

are not from Virginia wait Hampton in particular wait Hampton long street long street from Georgia

would would make some comments about it as well but the army of northern Virginia

demonstrates that the Virginia military tradition is far deeper than say Jeb Stewart's cavalry

or or or or or dashing horse raids because the Virginians and alongside all the other southern

states have to fight in these extremely pitched infantry battles you know not not just first

menaces um but you know this is and this is in many ways kind of a the last one of one of the last

show great showings of the horse in warfare is at this time but you can see that this transition is

well made you know you take the overland campaign you know the wilderness is extremely close quarters

bloody infantry fighting spot Slovenia the bloody horseshoe at spot Slovenia is almost like a a

world war one ask you know contiguous charging of of trench lines and hand-to-hand fighting cold harbor

where you know you have something almost reminiscent of the first day of the psalm

happening at cold harbor um this is not this is this is the Virginia military tradition

brought all of these regiments of infantry all these brigades of infantry into these conflicts

and it would be changed by them right you know because before this yes there was a great emphasis

on the dash and on the pop not not to the superfluous extent of that South Carolina known for its

superfluity brought it to but you know there was that that cavalier dash and that was kind of

worn away washed away uh as warfare became much more mechanistic uh just to clarify the point

I was trying to make earlier um you know if you look at someone like Stewart and then someone like

say Prince Rupert of the Rhine there's this extreme competence though they both lost in the end

where yellow tavern and marched and more have a lot similarities kind of interesting look at the

two figures together but anyway um they have the supreme confidence about them and they're

often able to pull it off is what makes them so exciting

whereas the um the like say the Lee Jackson partnership it's this classic thing where it feels like

you're looking at the purses and their scots Irish retainers fighting in 1300 and the whole

yeomanry of Virginia has risen up with them and is going along with it it's very impressive in

that regard but they never they never quite pulled it together and brought it off in the same way

that these remnants of the cavaliers are able to bring it off each campaign whether it's

first manassas though of course that wasn't Lee's fault or it's um the overland campaign or it's

Antietam or Gettysburg of course even a couple later opportunities they're never quite able to

finish the deal in the way that at a much smaller scale Jeb Stewart did and of course there's more

to it than that because it's these huge infantry battles so I'm not denigrating Lee by any

stretch of imagination it's just I yeah there's something about them really pulling off the

cavalier role but not quite doing what say Lord Wellington could do in finishing the job.

I could I could cite the counter example of Jackson's Valley campaign

but but now I see the point you're making with that um and really actually I think if you if you

want to see one of the best demonstrations of that is a is actually Nathan Bedford Forest out

further west um demonstrates that that spirit uh quite a bit although it's it's a different spirit

than Virginia although but this is the thing Virginia Virginia is kind of you heavily

emphasize the Anglo-Norman cavalier tradition but Virginia is almost a perendora's box of

of also because because you have this like this like you know New England maritime outpost or

like similar to it in in the Hampton roads you have the Anglo-Norman's in the tidewater you have

you know proto-calboys in the Shenandoah Valley and in the far west and and and you know just as you

talk about the diversification of the Virginian economy that is in many ways all these different

these different nascent cultures that go off and found entirely new states uh to further accentuate

themselves um that's like you being a prime example correct you know Kentucky and Tennessee

uh then going to found Texas uh then going you know and rolling westward contiguously and I

and I understand the point that you're trying to make with the uh with with the comparison to

Jeb Stewart and Prince Rupert um but you know almost everywhere up until unless you want to argue

matter of fact you could argue that that that brings a comeback because um the Virginia military

tradition does not end with the civil war actually the civil war reshapes it um but it doesn't end

after the civil war this is a point I wanted to make after the civil war uh the Virginia

Polytechnic Institute is founded in Blacksburg so if you are not familiar with what a senior

military college is a senior military college is one of six schools in the United States it's not

quite a service academy but it's it's it's in that niche between service academy and regular

college with an ROTC program this is Texas A&M University in North Georgia Norwich VMI the Citadel

and Virginia Tech the only state that has two senior military colleges less than less than an

hour from each other I think an hour and a half from each other is Virginia it has two senior

military colleges in VMI and Virginia Tech um Virginia Tech would later contribute a significant

part of the officer corps uh in in the United States Army burnt both during the World War I and

World War II uh and as well to this day because the point I'm trying to make uh the the kind of to

get to the end before I you know run through the bits of World War I and World War II that I think

are interesting um the Virginia military tradition is not gone it's still here it's it's it's

faded to a great extent but it's still present if you look at the Commonwealth of Virginia and this

is actually one of the tensions right but the amount of military infrastructure that's there um it's

it's it it does still keep alive some of this now with recent political changes it's it's highly

possible that uh it will be snuffed out particularly due to the changes that happened at VMI in 2020

but yeah in World War I mean to you know one final entry of the naval tradition is look at my

profile picture this is Admiral Richard Evelyn Bird right descended of the bird family he was the

last great American polar explorer he explored the North Pole in the South Pole and you got the

metal of honor for it right um this is sort of in the inner war period uh but during World War II

you know and this is to say nothing of the of the Confederate generals that came back for the

the Spanish war including uh most famously from Virginia Fitz Lee right um and the the during

but during um World War I you have two entirely virginian infantry divisions in the 29th and the 80th

uh that go over and they fight you know the one the the one 16th gets created the one 16th will be

made famous for storming Omaha Beach in World War II uh Alpha Company the Bedford boys would take

98% casualties and Bedford would lose more more men than any other town proportionally in the United

States during World War II you know George Patton and I wanted to bring him up because you were

mentioning Stuart and others earlier you could say George Patton is the repository of that cavalier

tradition he was born in California raised in California but his dad was a Confederate general from

Virginia and he went to the Virginia military institute he self conceived as a Virginia you know

he also fully adopted it I like uh with he I think would go on Fox Hunts when he was supposed to be in

DC uh yeah military stuff he was he was very much a virginian and please continue yes yes

sir um and and so so Patton very much adopted this this cavalier style um and took it and reapplied

it to armored warfare in many ways you can say he perfected armored warfare uh in the latter half

this is attributed you can attribute this the Virginia military tradition uh George C. Marshall

I don't think he was from Virginia but the the sort of Robert E. Lee organizational mindset

that he applied to the U.S. Army he got from the Virginia military institute um I didn't mention I

didn't get into the Marine Corps as much as I wanted to but the Marine Corps uh because of its

base in Quantico largely uh but also because of its most famous hero Chasty Polar who was from

West Point Virginia you know if you if you talk to any Marine you know who's the best Marine who's

the greatest Marine it's Chasty Polar he was from West Point Virginia in the tidewater um and

Quantico was where a Marine officers are trained at this day um I would say even the the the last

great and this is a name that you might not have heard of uh but the I'd say I'd say the last

great American military commander just period you know I don't think there's been one since him

the last great American military commander Matthew B. Ridgeway was born in Fort Monroe

you know uh Matthew B. Ridgeway for those of you who don't know during the Korean War

when China entered the war and started rolling up the United States back to the 38th parallel

Douglas MacArthur got fired and got replaced by Matthew B. Ridgeway uh Ridgeway was the commander

the 82nd Airborne Division during World War II and he was a strategic genius he was able to

stop the collapsing front of the US Army uh reset set the line at the 38th parallel uh after his

predecessor Walton Walker died and then start rolling back the Chinese after they had outmaneuvered

us and defeated us on several you know from the Chosen reservoir all the way down to the 38th parallel

Matthew B. Ridgeway is very much under song because Korea has forgotten because the Chinese

defeated us tactically we don't like remembering that because the because we all we we all talk about

like oh we we won strategically or we lost strategically or we lost politically but no in Korea

the Chinese defeated us in battles not just in through maneuver not just in operations but all

of this to wrap a nice little bow on this you know all of these things the Virginia military

tradition doesn't beginner end with the revolution or doesn't beginner end with the civil war

you can find the little seeds of it interspersed all throughout the existence of the commonwealth

and it's great men in its rank and file soldiers in its institutions uh in its culture you can

find an interspersed through it and I'd say it is of all of the products that Virginia has given

to the world I'd say it is amongst the greatest if not the single greatest uh tradition Virginia is

given to the world a tradition that is exemplified by the you know you could say the dash of a

Jeb Stewart but the character and the the character of a Robert E Lee and the faith of a stonewall

Jackson uh which any American soldier that is honest with you to this day still adheres to

great I think that's a good place to end it Paul where can people find you uh you can find me on

Twitter at Cav King Paul C-A-V K-I-N-G P-A-U-L uh I'm back on Twitter uh further uh you can find me

usually doing stuff with the old glory club if any of you are interested in getting involved with a

uh fraternal society for heritage americans that desires to preserve not just virginian but all

american cultures and its various regional varieties you can find us at the old glory club uh both

on twitter and on youtube anyway just google the old glory club or type it in and you'll find us

I actually think uh mr. Tanner you've spoken at one of our events before

yes and i'll have all that uh linked up in the show notes people can find it more easily

Paul thank you ton for coming on this was a very fun and fascinating discussion i'll have to

have you back on again sometime soon uh but everyone who listened thanks for listening and i'll see you