We the patient: Transparency and relationship in healthcare

I'm Stephanie Hawkson, and I'm Kathy Anderson Martin, and we are two women influencing

real life.

So let's twirl.

Kathy, have you ever had to go to the hospital, the doctor's office, or anything else?

You're told it's going to be one price and then all of a sudden something's not covered.

You're thousands of dollars in debt that you did not know you were going to be, and you're

having a serious conversation with your first husband.

Well, I have not been seriously in debt to at that point, but I have looked at some of

those bills, and I find myself to be a reasonably intelligent person, but not being able to decipher

what I paid for for what.

So I have had those issues, and I did have a strange circumstance with my child putting

a bead in her ear once, and being charged for realizing I was charged for a surgical

procedure as opposed to tweezers in the ear, it may have been the nose, I'm not sure.

So I do it on a smaller scale than what you started out with.

Oh, I'm sure we have lots of stories.

I know I can tell you stories as we go through this particular show.

This is going to be an interesting one.

I can't wait to talk about the hospital system transparency pricing and why we all can opt

to make a difference at this point.

I'm Stephanie Coxen, and I'm Kathy Anderson Martin, and we are two women inspiring real

life.

So let's twirl.

I'm super excited.

We've got Dr. Chomeney Wheeler back on our program.

It's been a long time, but this lady has literally been at the forefront of just breaking,

I'm going to say, breaking chains.

And so, Dr. Wheeler, would you just give us a little bit of your background?

I, there's so much there, tell us, tell us what is happening in your life right now, tell

us who you are, and let's talk about why we all need to rally behind you.

Thank you so much for this opportunity to come before your show.

I just have to, so I am a pediatrician.

I worked in the PZR, and I have to say that actually one of the most unique things I've

been able to take out of noses and ears have been barried, dolled shoes.

Oh, so the bead wasn't anything spectacular?

No, so that was, you know, it just made me smile and how creative you have to get.

And I did not realize the hospital charge that as a surgical procedure.

That's very interesting.

Oh, I know.

I know.

I know.

I would like to just say here, I, my son decided to put a Lego arm up his nose.

And we did have to have that removed, but I went to urgent care, and I was not charged

to surgical procedure at urgent care.

I, this was in the pediatrician's office, and I shared this with the start.

It was a year we switched to like a high deductible health insurance.

So we became more aware of what we were being built in the past.

We'd get our bill and just be like, whatever, because it went to insurance.

So when I got this really hard, this high bill for bead removal, I went in and out,

asked, and they said, oh, yeah, it was a coding error.

Oh, yeah, we coded it as a surgical procedure.

So it was like, I don't know, hundreds of dollars versus the regular office fee.

So I just thought, you know, as we go into this conversation, when it forced me to be aware,

I realized that versus what would have just happened otherwise.

So that's, that's the prelude there to the bead removal, Dr. Wheeler.

Can I really appreciate that my husband and I, he's an ER doctor.

So have done those proceed different actual procedures, but this whole thing about us,

we started because we saw just the lack of physician autonomy and really the unawareness

on the doctor's side and on the patient side.

And I think you said it perfectly right there that fundamental lack of awareness, because

you don't realize what's going on and you just kind of ignore it and go about your business.

So we've been in medicine for a long time.

I guess in our story, we, I think during COVID, we really saw the lack of autonomy and the

distance of the doctor patient relationship really show it's, it's, it's colors.

And so with that, my husband and I, we have gone away from our being employed, which

is what we always were.

And we've opened up our own office, a direct primary care office.

And so that's just, and that's going really well and all of that.

But the more important thing that we have got to do is to make everybody aware of what's

going on and the really look at healthcare as the marketplace that it is.

It is a business to take a look at that.

So yeah, so this is, so we're going to be talking about just us, as consumers, knowing

the prices of things, right?

I mean, I know my, what, you know, my opening experience to that, I had a kid that fell

in some gravel.

I just wanted to x-ray for his hand.

Nothing was punctured through, but I went into the office to have it done.

And they said he needs to get a tetanus, you know, a d-tap essentially.

And I'm like, well, why?

There's no puncture ruined.

It was, you know, it was just a scrape.

It was bleeding.

It wasn't deep.

You know, there was just nothing there.

And I had said that, you know, if you guys are concerned, what about the tetanus immunogoblin?

Well, they sent in a second doctor to talk me into the d-tap.

And I could get, I didn't ask for that consult, but yet I was charged for this consult.

It didn't change my mind.

It didn't change the outcome.

I didn't ask for it, but I literally got charged to doctor's visits.

Because of that.

And that's when my eyes were open to what was going on.

Like, why was I not giving, like, that should have been told to me.

Like, we're going to charge you for an extra doctor's visit.

Do you want to speak to another doctor about this?

The answer would have been clearly no.

I had already made up my mind.

This is not what we needed.

So is that the kind of stuff that you see in, you know, and why you're creating a movement

to where we do have more control over what we're paying?

And we do have doctor's visits, hospital visits, and everything else?

100%.

So our, the name of our movement is called We The Patient, with a singular patient.

And the reason is singular is because the individual matters.

Everybody doesn't just go into the same shoebox.

The individual matters and the, and with that is really that fundamental need to understand

the marketplace.

So they can actually empower to navigate the care and cause that's best for them and

their families.

And we know that to this movement is very different from any other movement that there's

a lot of different patient advocacy, things that have been wronged and trying to write,

and all of that.

But this is a more of a healthcare marketplace literacy movement to empower individuals,

every single person.

If you understand the marketplace, you can ask those questions and to figure out what's

best for you and your family.

And that's what we need, that grassroots effort to do that.

I do think it makes, you know, perfect sense that we know something before going into something

so we can appropriately prepare for that something.

So you always talk about, or at least in our conversations, you talk about something called

the Four E's.

What are the Four E's and how does that relate to the movement that you're trying to create?

I love that.

So Four E path to patient power.

That is what the movement is about.

So the E's are educate, empower, engage, and encourage.

When we talk about educating, we want to actually educate how the healthcare system actually

works, where the different, the transparency, the relationship, how insurance truly functions.

We have to build a foundation of what that business looks like.

You know, we know the, I think a lot of times when we look at healthcare, we don't see

it as a business.

We just see it as, oh, it's a need and it's being met, but it isn't business.

So we have to understand the business behind it.

And then by understanding and building that foundation, we empower each individual to

use those real world, the understanding to leverage their decisions on what is best for

them.

It truly is an individual effort for the individual patient, individual family, what they need.

And that empowerment is what allows that clarity to give them confidence to navigate the

system.

And then once you have that confidence to navigate the system, we want to go our next step,

which is to engage our individual to make those, make the decisions, talk to their employers

about the third party administrators.

And this, how is your healthcare working?

Is the employer-based healthcare that's being offered?

Is that what's best for all of your employees?

Employee or an employer can ask these questions.

It doesn't matter where you are in the healthcare marketplace, all of us are patients and we

need coverage.

And then there's all kinds of direct pain models, like direct primary care and many other things

that are coming.

So just to understand how these things fit into the broader marketplace, right now there's

a sense, like, oh, healthcare is so confusing because it's by design that is meant to be confusing.

So if we can educate to get that clarity, not to be confusing, it shouldn't be confusing.

You paid for service, you get the service.

It should be as simple as that.

But even when I talk to a CEO of a company, they usually, oh, I let my benefits people

take care of that because it's just a nightmare, it's completely confusing.

They don't understand it because it's meant to be ununderstandable and too layered.

So this is to educate for clarity, to empower that.

And then at the end of the day, we want to encourage one another, hand in hand, doctors

and patients joining together that we can unite and make the change that we want in healthcare.

You mentioned the patients and I know we all have our stories.

I just recently had an experience where I think this is today's healthcare environment

affecting the doctors as well.

And I'll admit, in the past five years, I've changed a lot of my healthcare to a natural

pathic practice, but I still have medical doctors I need for certain things.

And I was just out of physician two weeks ago, and I won't even say the thing, I don't

want to out her, known her for 25 years, love her, and I was talking about something.

And she just kind of went on a rant and she had a private practice sold out to a medical

system.

You know, it's talking about how healthcare is so awful, you can't get the referrals,

the tests are going to take forever and she just went on and on and it's only going

to get worse.

And I sat there and while I agreed with everything she said, I felt like she was so demoralized

and she's a good doctor.

I mean, I love this doctor, but I felt she is so demoralized in the environment that she's

in.

And that's why I as a patient feel bad, she felt bad too.

And I think is that a prevalent feeling among doctors, at least, you know, a lot of the

good ones who truly got into it for all the good reasons to help people.

I do.

There's a huge movement among the doctors to regain autonomy and that decision making process

and to be the advocates and to actually care for their patients.

One of the biggest things that doctors lack is time with their patients to take a history.

And that just snowballs into poor care.

Their patients are sick and they call to get an appointment.

And the doctor doesn't even know that the patient called, like it's so removed from you as

a doctor that their patient was sick because it goes through a huge call center in a large

network that gets triage, you know.

The other day, I needed to admit a patient to the hospital and I called the transfer

center number to admit them to the hospital.

And it was one of their satellite, smaller hospitals is where I was going to admit the patient

to, but the call center didn't even know that they had that hospital.

I had to give them the address for them to find out that that was part of their network.

You know, so when things become so big, it just becomes so depersonalized that yes, doctors

are very frustrated by and large.

There are doctors who are not frustrated.

But I think like you're the one that you talked about who own their own practice and then

had to join the healthcare system.

It really wasn't because they wanted to join.

It's usually because they had to join to be financially solvent.

And so that's where education comes in again as a healthcare marketplace literacy.

One of the biggest things, the reason doctors had to join larger networks is the electronic

medical record system.

And you know, and why is that because of the different laws that got that got placed

that said we needed the electronic medical to say paper and to that did that.

And right now we have one medical record system called epic that pretty much, I think they

have like over 300 million patient data points with them.

So you know, it just monopolized one industry.

I mean, I think it's actually pretty funny when you look at saving paper and everybody

gets asked if this is summary that really says nothing.

Yes.

I don't know how you are, but I have to print everything out to read.

I'm just lexic.

I can't read online.

So I'm literally printing everything out anyway so that I don't make mistakes.

And I can't be the only one doing that even without dyslexia.

You're killing the trees, Stephanie.

You're killing the trees.

No, but I hug them and they know I love them.

It's okay.

Okay.

All right.

That's okay.

So, you know, with this, I'd also like to point out what doctor actually stands for.

And really a doctor is an educator.

And I feel like that we've lost that definition somehow some way and that it is the doctor's

responsibility to educate.

It's not to create an authoritarian environment.

It's not to, you know, hide information.

It is literally to educate someone.

And so you're really aligning this system, this value system with the purpose of what a

doctor is.

And I love that.

Thank you.

It is.

It is.

I know in our meet and greet in our office, we say the doctor means educator and people

are very surprised by that.

But that also, you know, goes into it's the individual, the patient that has a choice

to make the decision that's best for them and their family.

And, you know, a doctor, you go to school, you learn all this stuff and you can educate

and give your decisions what you think would be best.

But at the end of the day, it's the individual, that patient that gets to decide what is best

for them.

But it's wonderful to be, you know, this movement, it's really for everybody because

at the end of the day, we're all patients and we need all hands on that.

And I looked, my husband and I, we looked online and many other groups to see if there's

another movement similar to this at all because if there was, there was no need to create

a movement.

If there was an education movement to educate patients on the healthcare marketplace.

And there really isn't.

There's a lot of good patient advocacy movements, you know, cancer to different, different

movements like that, you know, from MS awareness to Down syndrome and all of that.

So on and so forth or, but not.

And there's even like a, you know, billing, pricing, transparency movement, but truly

to kind of unravel that whole picture of a healthcare as a marketplace, educate and

empower individuals to take control.

So you know, I'm curious.

So let's just say that your ideal system is being implemented across the country because

we're just going to claim that right now.

What does it look like for a patient?

Like what would a visit look like?

I mean, let's just say a visit going into their regular doctor because that's probably

what most people are accustomed to.

What, what, how would that visit change and how would that feel to someone?

So it needs to change.

Number one, access the today when somebody sick, they're not able to be seen that day or

the next day.

That is why we have urgent cares.

And cares that popped up because people don't have access to their doctor.

So really, you want to go to the doctor that knows you when you're sick.

So that's number one, it would look like.

Then care when we talk about what is care care isn't just taking care of that acute illness,

but it's also wellness is prevention of development of chronic illnesses and to promote lifestyle

changes that actually takes a lot of time on the aspect of the doctor and the investment

in the patients to continue to have those multiple touch points.

Like I like to say, talk about like, for example, diabetes.

If somebody's hemoglobin A1C is not in the prediabetic range, but based on their age,

it's higher than it should be, that's when you should start the conversation.

And about the changes that it needs to happen and explain why that is.

And then that conversation can wait another year to be repeated that their annual physical.

You repeat that again in three months with a maybe a repeat of that hemoglobin A1C.

And that allows that patient to continue to be engaged in that lifestyle choices because

it gives him confidence, it gives him encouragement to keep going.

You know, I am a huge fan of like the gut biome.

The gut biome help, if for me, starts at the introduction of solids as six months.

That and to talk about those conversations and prevention of all of those types of things.

So that's care, that's what it would look like.

So access, care and time that would be needed to have those conversations.

And I think that's what you, when you were with us last year and talked about, that's

what's so missing.

There is no doctor, patient relationship, you know, you're in there for two minutes with

whatever.

I 25 years ago, my doctor who I had for years, back when I was a teenager, something

wasn't right.

And she kept seeing me.

It turns out I had an atrial septal defect that had been undiagnosed for since I had been

born.

It was very large, which was why it made no noise.

And I had to have an open heart surgery to have that repaired.

But I remember her saying to me, something just didn't seem right with you.

So I kept sending you for tests, even though it didn't make the pain I had was not medically

related.

And that only happened because she had a relationship with me going back 20 years before, knew I wasn't

coming in with unexplained, you know, so she kept trying, I don't think in today's environment,

that would have been found because there's no converse, they don't know you at all.

Right.

And that's, you talk about that a lot that there's no relationship or time with being developed.

Then that's number one, right?

It is number one, the, you know, I, relationship, I'm a Christian.

So I believe, you know, that we are created for relationship and everything fundamentally

follows from a relationship, including the doctor patient relationship.

And you talked about your doctor who was, you know, was going on and was how frustrated

she was.

So in medical school, we learned that the taking a history is the most important aspect

of getting into any diagnosis and that requires time.

And then, you know, about 80, 70, 80% of the diagnosis is made at the history level.

Then the exam and then the labs only confirm it.

So without the history, you really rely on not being able to, you know, you write a script

as a referral or something like that.

So 100%, the kind, the relationship is fundamental.

And that's probably one of the biggest complaints that I hear is just, I'm just referred to

this doctor, then to the next doctor, then to the next doctor.

And by the end of it, you literally have 10 different doctors, no one's cross communicating,

the pharmacist is supposed to be checking to make sure there's no contraindications.

And then you end up on all these meds because no other doctors will intake you off the

first med that the first doctor puts you on.

And it just seems so disconjointed for the average person who's truly trying to see, because

clearly these are the wrong if you're being referred everywhere, but it's just disconjointed

for them and they're not getting the answers because, you know, it's not there.

We have to go to break, but you are such a warrior and this is just the, this is just

the beginning of the story of what's happening.

So let's talk about the next phase of your, your ingenious plan after the commercials.

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So one of the things that I absolutely adore about you is that not only do you see a problem,

but you are a solution finder.

And I'm pretty sure that nothing holds you back.

It's I've never seen anything like it before my life if it's, you know, if the average

person would say it's impossible, you just kind of, you know, put your nose up at it and

keep going.

And I believe the same is true in this case, so you're not just talking about a problem

that you see, but you are actually taking steps towards a solution.

There is a bill being introduced in the state of Pennsylvania.

Can you tell us a little bit about your, your steps towards that, how you got there and

what is happening?

Oh, thank you for the time to talk about this.

So it's called the patience right to understand that.

And it's really that we as individuals, as patients need to be able to understand what

this means.

And in this bill, the fundamental thing is talked about is that to understand and to

be able to take action.

So the three questions that we want every healthcare decision to revolve around is do I need

this?

How much does it cost and is the decision being made in the doctor patient relationship?

Can you imagine a healthcare system where those three questions are asked at every decision

point and the amount of healthcare savings, dollars that it would make?

I have a chart here that shows the cost of healthcare literally has gone from 17 percent

in 1990 to 36 percent in 2020.

It was 719 billion to 4124 billion is our healthcare marketplace according to Peter, Peter

St. Foundation in the United States.

Wow.

So this, the right to understand that in order to engage patients at that grassroots,

we have to do this.

Our country is going to go bankrupt if we don't take care of healthcare.

Like it's, it's not an if it's, it, it will happen.

Dr. Marty McCary, who's an FDA director, he published this article in USA today a couple

years ago.

And in that, it talked about how about 48 percent of our United States budget is spent on healthcare.

Unbelievable.

Yes.

So we need to look at it.

15 percent on Medicare, 10 percent on Medicaid, so that's 25 percent.

But did you know that about 12 percent of social security and some going towards healthcare

because our seniors, that's what they, they pay for their advantage plans, their, their

medications, their deductibles.

So even their social security income, about 12 percent.

And our defense system, about 2.5 percent goes into, from the defense budget, into the

healthcare system.

The non-discretionary spending, 4.4 percent goes to that and our, and then other 1.2 percent

federal employee benefits and even three percent, our national debt is interest is 6 percent

and 3 percent of that goes to healthcare.

So when we add all that together, that's 48 percent, it's going to go bankrupt.

So patients right to understand this system, before we become bankrupt, is what we have

got to do.

And this, this whole thing, there's nothing like it as you were talking.

I mean, I'm thinking I've been having an appliance installed.

I have a bill that shows what I paid for the appliance, what the installation fee will

be.

If I want to warranty, this is what it is.

If I go by a car, it's itemized out, you know, this is what the car is, even the packages

of options on the car.

If I want an extended warranty, taxes and tags, this is the only industry where you have

no idea what you're paying for when you receive it.

And that's the whole point that you're, I mean, along with this is not a political issue.

It is a patient, as you say, we, the patient, right that we should be able to discern what

exactly we're paying for, what the insurer is paying for on our behalf.

I mean, that, that, it's basics.

I mean, I don't, it's just so simple and why, you know, why is it like that?

It is.

And even our employers who, you know, employers in our nation is who place most of our health

care, right?

Because they pay for their employees and our employers can get the information themselves

the, you know, these data points and all of this, it's all just kind of, oh, it's, you

know, it is just the way it is.

No, it's not.

We need to change it.

And that's what you're doing with your group to try to change this, the transparency

and put this back in the hands of the patient, the people that are receiving the care.

100%.

So, I mean, so the bill is written, it's being introduced.

Do you have a bill number for this by chance?

We don't.

So it's being, it's in its revisions.

So it hasn't been introduced completely yet, but our goal is to get it introduced.

So is there a, is there a plan, a launch date, anything like that that could be happening?

Yes.

So April 20th, 2026.

So just about 63 days away, I think, is at 10 o'clock in the morning, we're going

to have a press conference.

And it really is what this bill means, what it means for the individual.

And we need all hands on deck for this change to happen.

It's, it's not a, it's not a political bill.

It's an individual bill for every patient.

Every one of us needs it.

And it's going to happen at the state capital.

We're going to launch the movement for the Pennsylvania, the Pennsylvania state capital.

Although we are, I'm assuming that we're all hoping that this spreads like wildfire across

the US, it starts somewhere, you know, just like, just like our FK launched the Eat

Real Food campaign from our state capital, you are launching this from our state capital

in hopes that every American can have full transparency and be able to have that doctor

patient relationship, right?

Yes.

That's also.

But anyone's welcome to come to your launch, you know, just to show the support, get

people behind it and tell people that you are tired of not knowing what you're walking

into because what in this world can we do that with where it makes sense?

We all need to know to make good decisions what is happening and you can't make those

without complete transparency.

That's when I keep sitting here thinking, if I walk to get a car and they said it's

$52,000 and I would be like, okay, what does, and they said, it's just $52,000.

Oh, okay.

I'll write the check.

No one would do that.

No one does that.

That's right.

Oh, see, this is, Dr. Wheeler, you mentioned launching this April 20th at the Pennsylvania

state capital.

I think you said 10 a.m.

Is that correct?

Yes, 10 a.m.

Is there, are there similar efforts in other states or is this like the testing point

to have it spread through the country?

This is the testing point to spread through the country.

The more individuals that really understand it, share this information with your groups,

your local groups, your individuals, and get people engaged, really we can make our

access meaningful, care can become coordinated, all of those things.

Really, one of the things I didn't mention is I have this visual of a circle of trust.

What does that mean?

We talk about the fundamentalist relationship and because there's lack of transparency

and people don't know what they're paying for and they don't have access, care, time,

transparency, trust is really eroded.

So getting that access, we envision a healthcare marketplace in our nation where people have

access, care, time, transparency, and that will complete that circle of trust.

And that circle of trust, you talked about how the doctors are frustrated on one side

and patients are frustrated on the other side.

And by doing this, we really are coming together hand in hand, completing that circle.

I'm not going to lie.

I missed everything you said because all I could think of is meet the fuckers in his circle

of trust.

I may need you to repeat this to me later on or I'm going to have to rewind and listen to

it.

Not now, Stephanie.

No.

No.

But I'm like, oh, the circle of trust, like in the family, yeah, see, I also mind my

way.

I also kind of want that.

Yes.

Yes.

You know, and I, but that's a great calling it that's a circle of trust because if you

look at surveys and national opinions about health care, it's at all time lows of people

having faith and trust in our health care system.

And I think back to when I was a kid or growing up, if the doctor said, do this, you did

it.

You didn't even think to question.

And now that trust, I think, has been eroded for a lot of reasons, but that's very important

to kind of get that back.

I completely agree.

And the only way it can come back is by by building the relationship.

And I want to point out to anyone that's listening in a different state and being like, I wish

we had our own Dr. Wheeler because I wish that for your state.

This is going to, this is a bill that you can take and introduce to your own legislators.

So you can, you know, copy bills.

That happens all the time in the US and this is an opportunity for people to kind of replicate

in their own states to advocate for themselves, you know, go, everyone's impacted.

There's not a single person that is not impacted by this.

And so I think this is probably one of the most important things that we can do to advocate

for ourselves, for our children, for our grandchildren, to make sure that in the future,

we're not going into crazy amounts of debt for health care that we don't understand.

Well, that's, it's, it's health and it's economic.

Dr. Wheeler, you said it earlier, it's economically unsustainable with that kind of increase

that more than 30% of our economic picture in the country is going to these health care costs

and then having no idea what the deliverables or, you know, what the result is.

And that, there's so many levels where this, this is a problem.

And, you know, how, how can people help you get this message out other than by you sharing it

like on this show and else?

I mean, how can people help, help share this?

So the biggest way to help share it is to go on our website is through the patient.net

and it's patient singular because the individual matters and that net because we're creating

a network of patients.

So I'm hoping that everybody can remember the website very easily with that.

And then so share that.

And on our website, we have, there's joined the movement.

That's just a fundamental level.

We're trying, honestly, there's on there to be able to gather like this,

by zip code, by county for the state of Pennsylvania.

So we can actually have town halls or events at those areas to have this discussion

because this is about all hands on that and just having a discussion and, you know,

doing that for a path to patient power.

The next level would be to volunteer.

We need volunteers can do this just with a few.

We need the more engagement and there's all kinds of levels of volunteer

from being on a street team, meaning that you as a street team volunteer,

you just take responsibility.

You know what?

This information just got shared in a blog.

I'm going to get it to my peeps, my circle of influence that I have and I'm going to get

it out there.

That's what a street team would be and there's other levels like that to do too.

And then we would love for everybody to come and attend the launch where actually you

can get a free t-shirt for we the patient is our goal.

We need money.

We need donations to make these things happen and to get it out on all the different venues

of social media to all kinds of different places to have events and to produce literature

to get this movement going.

I would love to have billboards to empower people, you know, so all of those things.

So it's a multi front approach.

A groundswell of just people, as you said, the patient, I mean, that's all of us physicians

as well who are disgruntled with the way things are and want to go back to that relationship,

care centered approach versus whatever we have now, and then also the political realm.

So you are you actually visiting with representatives and senators and so forth to make them aware

of this opportunity of how they can help people in their charge, you know, in their communities.

Yes, 100% that, you know, we, because we need all hands on deck, it cannot be just one side.

So, you know, it's not, so anybody who's listening to this and, you know, we're asking you

to go to your local senator and representative, not, we're not saying this is not political.

So it's Democrats and Republicans go to your local representative, you're, you know,

who you're constituent, who represents you and ask them to co-sponsor this bill.

You know, wouldn't it be great that we could get our Pennsylvania legislature to everybody

to sponsor the bill?

I mean, I know there's a tall order, but if this is for every individual, it's really

to learn the system, to understand it.

This is not anything at all that should be a hard thing to get behind from either side.

It's we're just asking to understand transparency, transparency and what in an education.

Right. And in unity, there's strength.

So this, you know, and I think that's what's so beautiful about our nation is we the people, right?

So this is we the patient.

It really is a grounds up approach to transform it.

So we retake back autonomy and health care.

So is this anti-insurance or anti-hospital, you know, how do you, how does this kind of work

into our current system of where we're at?

I think that's a great question.

So no, this is not anti-insurance or anti-hospital.

This is pro-patient and pro-clarity.

So it is going to ask when somebody goes to have a service to know what that looks like,

what it, what that price point would be.

And so it's 100%, I think it is, often can maybe get viewed at, oh, well, this is another

thing that hospitals and insurance have to do.

But it is for the right of a patient to know what you're paying for.

And so it is not against hospital sentence insurance, but it is, it is, it is at its essence

in its root, just transparency and trust.

And I do want to know if this would give me the opportunity to say no to that second

doctor consult that I had to be billed for, you know, just, I want to go back to my

original problem.

Absolutely.

So I was thinking of something even more ridiculous and this, this happened and this

was even years ago.

I went in for something.

I don't know.

And I had had a system, my neck before.

So I said, I was in for something.

I don't even remember what.

But I said, hey, could you look at this little bump while I'm here, you know, because

it is another one of these cysts for me.

And the doctor said, no, I can't look at it.

And I said, what do you mean you can't look at it?

We're sitting right here, you know, and she said, no, you have to schedule another appointment

because it's how it's billed.

I mean, that like yours thinks, Stephanie, that doesn't to me benefit anybody.

Correct.

That doesn't benefit me as the patient.

It doesn't benefit the doctor who already has a loaded schedule in three minutes.

That could have been done with a minute, 30 seconds versus calling the call center, rescheduling,

coming back in, doing another billable.

But that's the kind of system that we're in.

And I think when you mention that, Dr. Wheeler, it can be that absurd.

And that again, that doesn't help the insured, it doesn't help.

No one.

No, it doesn't.

And that really, this is where the education for a movement comes in because it's really

based on a billing code.

The doctor needs to be able to get paid.

And so it's a generation of a billing code and that one visit gets that billing code.

So the next, then in order to have financial liability, you have another billing code for

taking a looking at the system.

But that also has the rippling downside down effect in that now you're going to take

another patient slot.

Right.

So now you just limited the availability of patient slots.

And now you don't have access even more.

And now you have to go to the urgent care or the ER for that cyst or something minor that

generates more revenue because those are higher charges.

And since that person who sees you at that urgent care or that ER doesn't have a relationship

with you and doesn't know you, they might actually run more testing.

And more referrals than the doctor who knew you would have just said, yeah, just do this

and come back.

So the whole thing is convoluted in a setup.

And we have got to educate, empower, engage and encourage one another.

And I really do think we can have this vision of this healthcare marketplace that patients

have access, care, time, transparency and trust.

I don't.

And this, again, this is not a political issue.

I think if you did a survey of most Americans, I shared some personal stories, Stephanie,

you shared one.

This is not, I mean, almost too bad to, yes, sorry, Stephanie, these are not issues that

are unique to just Stephanie and I.

This is an issue that affects you can almost have everybody will tell their story of not

receiving care.

As you mentioned, Dr. Wheeler, not being able to get in to see their doctor, insurance

issues with billing issues, you know, and all of those things, it's increasing costs.

I mean, it's everything and it affects everybody.

So that's why it behooves everybody to take, to listen to this.

You know, it's, it's funny.

I was thinking about that.

I can't think of a single person that would not benefit from this bill, not only in Pennsylvania,

but spreading across the country.

We all need this bill.

It's the right thing to do, honestly, because it's like you said, we don't walk into any

other place blind.

We don't do that.

We don't need to do a car insurance.

Right?

I'm going to get estimates.

Oh, and you get the line item, you know, I think dollars more for this and ten more

for a liability board and what's really beautiful about this bill, this bill actually says,

you know, that it needs to be in plain language, and the language cannot be buried in like

40 pages.

It needs to be like in two pages so you can read and understand it, because it's really

just a financial transaction per service that you're getting, right?

So it shouldn't be so complicated.

Have you gotten any resistance to this?

So it hasn't been introduced yet.

So it's in the process of it.

And I just say real quickly, before you continue, guys, this is breaking news on the

Toral Show.

Just people need to know that that we are breaking this whole thing out into the open.

We're probably going to be lauded for all of our efforts on this as Dr. We're pretty much

your partners.

Yes.

Yes.

This is the moment right here.

Okay.

Continue.

So I haven't seen the resistance come up specifically.

I do fear that we might have resistance because the financial incentives that are built

in to the system, because I mean, the system is there to make a profit.

And the profit is keeping it convoluted and not transparent and not to understand.

So it's too confusing and it works because health care is a need, right?

When you're sick, it's not something you can say, well, I'll come back to buy that sweater

next week.

And when I understand what the cost of the sweater will be, right?

Right.

Right.

You're sick.

So they have you and our patients, like they can't deny care.

They can deny something because they need it.

So that's why.

I think this is the only industry that you can make this business model work.

No other business could do this and make it work because you can always delay it until

you understand it.

You know, when our daughter had open heart surgery at age two, because she had a ventricular

septal defect that needed repair, I have that bill from the hospital.

And that was 25 years ago, 20 years ago, plus in my bill box, you know, where I put my

bills to pay my bills just to always remember it sits there to think, this is how much worse

it can be, you know, because your health is everything.

And so it's just that reminder, when I get irritated about paying bills, I could have

this bill and even worse, a child with extremely compromised health.

You know, so your health is everything and access to care is number one, proper care.

So tell us, tell us, is we thepatient.net, what, you know, tell, you just remind everyone

how can they get involved in this?

I mean, it's, it's showing up.

So remind us of the date and the time, just kind of give us the low down here as we wrap

up the show.

So April 20th at 10 o'clock in the morning at the Pennsylvania State Capitol show up and

you'll get a t-shirt and you don't get to hear the launching of patients right to understand

act.

And what that all entails, it will be just a wonderful time of encouragement and unity and empowerment

for us.

We will talk about our mission, the full impact to patient power, which is to educate,

empower, engage, and encourage one another.

And the vision that we have hoped to accomplish, which I know is possible by this movement is

a healthcare marketplace where each individual, each of us as patients have access, care,

time, transparency, and trust.

And so to get involved on the website, join the movement.

We need you to volunteer at all different levels that you can and we would love for

you to, you know, reach into those businesses that you know, your own own pocketbooks to

see and pray about it at the level of donation that you can do because all of this need money.

And we would love your donations to make this a reality.

And get that free t-shirt because then you can have a whole army of walking billboards.

That's right.

That's right.

100%.

Really nice looking t-shirts.

I mean, you had me a t-shirt.

Thank you so much for coming on, Dr. Wheeler.

That was absolutely amazing.

Kathy, I think this could be a historical moment in US history where she is literally having

a launch point of something that could just totally change our entire system across the

country.

And for every person's sake, I really hope that that's the case and that I'm right.

I think I am right.

I just want to say and I just want it to be in the history books that this show was the

beginning point for it because, you know, this is our first news.

Yes.

I fear when there's money involved in financial incentives, they'll be pushed back, but

there shouldn't be because it's about transparency, economics and health, period.

And there's more of us than there are them.

We are the ants.

We have to go and the ant has to go about the work.

Yes.

The ant has to go about the work.

This is this is this is work that can benefit every single person, like literally there's

no one unless you're living in like a mountain side where you've never stepped off your own

property.

You know, my interaction with my physician was demoralizing, but now it's actually empowering

because I feel that there are a lot of really good people, even in the healthcare system,

nurses, doctors, medical providers who agree with Dr. Wheeler.

It's just getting them to have the courage to stand up with her and make a change.

Absolutely.

I completely agree with that.

I think that it's hard to be that voice that stands out.

This, you know, she's the leader in this and I hope that other doctors come behind

her, say yes, we see the same problem that our goal is to help our patients.

And I think, you know, when a doctor goes to school, that's really what they're thinking.

They're there to help their patients.

I don't know that any doctor goes into medicine with a thought otherwise and it's just bringing

back that initial intention and saying, you know what, this is a possibility.

This is real.

It's just having that courage to say enough is enough that I'm willing to make a change.

I'm willing to put myself in an uncomfortable situation, perhaps, in order to make this

change.

But literally, I mean, there's just, there's not a lot out there that really does impact

every single person, every single person.

And this does, this does, this truly does.

And just the intention and I love the circle of trust.

I know I made fun of it with Meet the Falkers, but I do love the circle of trust.

Stop saying that.

I can't help it.

I mean, it's probably the only movie line in my life that I know.

It goes with what we're seeing in the media where people have lost that trust and it's

been going downhill for the past few years and it's time to change that.

And it's what she said.

It starts with relationship.

Every single thing in life is about relationships number one.

Yeah.

And your healthcare provider should be at the forefront of that.

Yes.

And kind of like our show last week where the money, there's a money aspect to all of this.

This cost of money.

Always.

Always.

Incredible cause.

We're literally all of your money is going towards the movement that you can make a difference

truly and how important it is, even if it's a dollar that you donate.

It doesn't matter the amount, but it's going to make a difference.

And if you're in Pennsylvania, show up on April 20th at the Capitol.

Yes.

Make the drive, yeah, make the drive in show up so that you can speak out and just like

we say every single week, wherever you are to the extent that you are able, stand up,

forward and speak out, especially on April 20th.