What Happens to People Who Never Heard the Gospel?

Thank you so much for joining us today, and we'll see you in the next video, see you in the next video.

What I do is stand, metaphorically speaking, to reason, regarding the Christian worldview

and classical Christianity, classical Christian values.

So that means I'll take your calls.

Sometimes I start with commentary and give you some things to think about other times.

And then move to calls. Sometimes I just start with calls. I'm pretty much going to do that this time.

Just to let you know, lines are open. If you're listening in virtually, 855-2439-975,

I'd love to have you call me in. Call me in. Call me in.

To me. Call me in when I'm all done though.

And I'd love to chat with you about anything on your mind in the Arab Ethics,

values and religion in particular with regards to the truth of the Christian view of reality.

855-2439-975. That's also the number that you can call any week that I'm here on Tuesdays from 4 to 6.

L.A. Time. Pacific.

Okay. And if you want to talk with me, but you can't talk with me live,

you can talk with me through open my calls. You can go to our website under homepagestr.org,

go to podcasts, and then live broadcast. And you can leave a question there.

And by the way, we usually have a stack of these because people call it with lots of questions.

We've been running through them in the last few weeks because we're doing a lot of extra shows

and anticipation of me being out of town coming early summer.

And that means we're running through all of our questions. We would love to have your questions.

So whatever comes up, you're having an issue of somebody raises an issue in your Bible study or church

or something like that, something you're concerned with, you've talked about with your family,

maybe your kids have applied you with questions, you're not sure exactly how to respond.

Go to str.org and leave an open mic call there under podcast and live broadcast.

And we'll be able to fill a list up and then do some answer your questions for you when we have that opportunity.

So I'd love to have you help out there.

Let's see.

Here's a question from Tom that I'm not sure how best to answer,

but I had it last week at a live event and I'll do my best. Tom?

Hello, Greg. This is Tom in Montana.

I had a question about apologetics for kids.

My niece put out a question asking for any good sources that could be offered to her to start addressing

things with her children who are now 10 and 6.

They live not too far from where you had a speaking engagement recently.

I'm not sure that they were able to go though.

Anyway, would appreciate any help that you could give and appreciate all the great resources

that you've offered through the years.

They've been very interesting and very helpful.

Thanks again. Bye.

All right, Tom.

Thank you for your question.

Actually, it was just asked something like this.

I think it was last weekend and Philly.

We don't produce stuff for kids just because we got our hands full with what we're doing.

You mentioned 6 and 10 years old.

Now, we have a close associate here on Natasha Crane who's done great work on this.

It's actually perfect for the circumstance that you just described with a mother who's looking to teach her youngsters about apologetics issues.

Natasha, last name, C-R-A-I-N, has written three different books that have short studies like each book.

I think it's got 50 short studies that is meant to focus on a spiritual slash apologetics issue that you can do with your kids.

It's all turnkey. It's very easy.

The way it's set up is the parent can read through the segment and see what preparation needs to be made for them.

Then they walk their student through the segment.

It's turnkey.

You don't need to know anything special as all right there.

It's going to be an education in some cases for a mom and dad who's ever doing it in addition to the kids.

Natasha Crane has written five books that I know of.

Three of them are like this. They're in this category. Her first three.

Her very first book is titled Keeping Your Kids on Gods Side.

Keeping Your Kids on Gods Side.

The next two, I can't remember the exact titles, but they're similar to that.

If you go to Amazon and look one up, you're going to see the other ones.

Look at Natasha N-A-T-A-S-H-A-C-R-A-I-N.

Those are books that will really serve you perfectly with the concern that you described.

Now, I do know that there's a couple of others who have written material, curriculum type stuff for kids.

And I'm not sure where those pieces that work fits in in terms of age appropriate.

J. Warner Wallace has written some stuff that I think is geared.

It's like he's written his books like Cold Case and then he's got a student version.

Now, that might not be, what's the right word?

I don't want to say dumb down because nothing he does is dumb down.

But he changes his approach so he throws the ball so younger people can catch it.

Let's put it that way.

I don't know if six is too young for that.

Ten probably will have access, but you might want to check that out.

J. Warner Wallace, W-A-L-L-A-C-E.

William Lane Craig also has some books for kids.

In fact, I think we carry some of them here.

And there are simple little books that you can use to direct your children in some studies about God and the Bible and Jesus and stuff like that.

I don't have those titles right here.

But maybe Amy, do you know any of the titles that William Lane Craig has done?

Kyle, we don't have that?

Okay. Well, everybody's shaking their head, but I know he's done some of that work.

I don't even remember the titles, but if you look up William Lane Craig in your Amazon database, you'll find probably some books for children or maybe use that as a qualifier when you search.

So you've got Natasha Crane, you've got William Lane Craig, you have J. Warner Wallace, Sean McDowell.

I think has certainly done things for maybe middle schoolers and high schoolers.

I'm not sure if he's done anything for younger than that, but that's something that you'll want to check out.

Okay. Another thing to do, and this is going to be a little more work.

And in what the resources I've just suggested, especially Natasha, you're not going to have to do this.

But one way to do this is do some of the kind of the research yourself reading some of the books or materials or listening to things that we produce and others have produced.

So you get a sense of the thing.

And then as a mom, speaking to your kids, work on translating that in language they can understand and make it fun and enjoy it.

Well, just like you do with any other thing that you want to teach your kids when they're younger and you have to move a little more slower and a little more slowly and you have to, you know, put it in language they understand.

All right. So that's what I would suggest for you, Tom and for your friends, whatever, Natasha Crane, especially.

Okay. I have.

This is a hard one.

Kovu. That's how I'm pronouncing it. Yeah, that's it.

I've heard it before, but what happens to the people?

Who's never heard the gospels or the ones that were before the time of Jesus?

How do they get saved?

Remind me, please. And thank you and God bless you.

Well, I do a whole talk on this. I'm just going to say co because that's what looks like KOU.

It's like the first three letters of my last name.

And it's called the heathen and the unknown God.

It's a bit complex because there is theology related to this answer that one has to get in place.

And there's a couple of different pieces here.

What happens to people who've never heard the gospel?

One, what happens to people who live before the time of Jesus?

Two, separate issues.

Sometimes the ones who never heard of Jesus are in the same kind of category as people who live now, but then haven't never heard the gospel.

And let me just deal with that first.

I guess there's a couple of kind of theological concepts that need to be in place first.

Here's the first one.

And this is in the talk, so I'm just going by memory, but I think the first one is nobody goes to hell because they never heard of Jesus.

They are not ending up in hell through a geographical accident.

They just happened to live somewhere where they didn't hear of Jesus.

Because even though believing in Jesus is the antidote to the problem, the problem isn't belief in Jesus such that if you don't believe in Jesus, that's what causes you to go to hell.

If you look in Revelation 20, the great white throne judgment, the books are opened, and the basis for the judgment has nothing to do with belief or disbelief in Jesus.

It has to do with a person's behavior.

They were judged according to their deeds.

The best parallel here, if that sounds a little odd to you, just think people, you're not going to find on the gravestone cause of death's stupidity wouldn't go to the doctor.

Because not going to the doctor didn't kill anybody.

It's a disease that the doctor could have healed that ends up killing people.

And that's important to keep those distinct.

Jesus is the solution. He's not the problem, right?

He's the way we get healed from something else that's killing us, a spiritual disease of sorts, and that spiritual disease is sin.

And because of our sin, we are due punishment by God.

Therefore, at the judgment, when God lays out all of the sins, that's the book that He's got as a rap sheet, the list of our deeds,

it's going to be clear that every single person is guilty and properly do the punishment that defaults them.

Now, there's another book, and that's the book of life.

And in that are the names of those who have put their trust in Jesus.

And He is their advocate.

He is their defense counsel, because He is the one who has died on their behalf, so they don't get weighed in the same way as the others.

If they were, they'd be lost, because their sins would consume them.

All our righteous deeds, Isaiah wrote, are like filthy rags, and our inequities, like the wind, carry us away, Isaiah 64, 6.

It's the sin that we do, that's the problem.

So, I'm building a case here now.

The first thing we need to know about those people who never heard is they're not going to hell, because they never heard.

The second one is they're going to hell, if they get judged, because of their deeds.

And even if they're pardon me, there was never any salvation offered, God would still be just in punishing them for their misdeeds.

But it isn't like God is hidden Himself.

That's the next point. God has not hidden Himself.

And when we read Romans 1, Paul argues there from 1718 and beyond that the evidence of God is clear.

It can be clearly seen there's also evidence within us that God is real, but people have suppressed that truth with unrighteous motives.

And worship the creature rather than the creator.

Okay, and this makes God angry.

And the wrath of God is being revealed as the way Paul puts it.

So we have this notion of all these poor people that never heard and they're kind of innocent.

It's like Rousseau's version, spiritual version of the noble savage.

You know, they're just, you're basically good people. They're just out of reach of the message.

No, they're not good people according to God's assessment.

We've all sinned in false short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is death.

So on the one hand, we just want to be clear that everyone is under the judgment of God, no matter where they live.

And there is enough information, not just the evidence of God that they suppress, but also in their conscience.

And that's in chapter 2.

And their conscience is bearing witness one way or another.

And so these are all reasons why as Paul writes there, they are without excuse.

They can't raise the excuse that, well, we didn't have enough information.

He is saying that. They do in multiple ways.

Okay, now the next thing you need to know is that God still pursues human beings.

And if anyone's heart is truly turned to God and seeking Him in truth, God will find a way to get the message that saves to them.

God will find a way to get the message that saves to them.

Now, we have biblical examples of this.

We have the Ethiopian unit in the book of Acts, who is doing the best that He can, worshipping the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

But in reading there in the Old Testament, the book of Isaiah, when I'm trying to remember who it was, Stephen or whoever was spirited over there to talk with him and then taken away the road to wherever there was where the Ethiopian unit was and had the conversation.

So God met him where he was at the in Acts chapter 10.

You have Cornelius, the Gentile soldier who is seeking God the best He's able to with the information He has.

And so God arranges for the gospel to get to him.

Now, he has quite a pedigree spiritually based on the description that we see in Acts chapter 10.

He's constantly praying, he's giving alms, he's in virtue of this faithfulness.

He gets a vision, angels appear to him, whatever, or any ranges to get to go get Peter to come and preach the gospel.

Why? Because he's not saved.

He's on his way, but God makes sure that he gets details about Jesus.

He needs the preacher there, right Peter, right there in Acts 10.

And you can see, yeah, he needs the gospel.

When he gets it, bang, he gets saved, you know, right away.

It's all right there in the text.

We also have Old Testament examples of this as well.

So my conviction is that those who are seeking in a genuine way,

hither, thither and yon, wherever it is, God is going to get that message to them, whatever they need.

This is the post-Christ era.

And by the way, a long time ago, I read a book by Don Richardson called Eternity in their Hearts.

He wrote another book called Peace Child based on his own missionary work in Papua New Guinea.

But Eternity in their Hearts, he's describing how God prepares the hearts of these peoples in these strange places,

prepares their hearts for the gospel, so when the gospel is brought, it finds a place to live.

And people genuinely seeking, there's some pretty phenomenal accounts there of people genuinely seeking the true God

and finding him in very unusual circumstances where a missionary is able to give the truth to them

and just whole tribes get saved of these pagan, spiritist tribal peoples, in this case, in Northern Thailand, in Laos and Burma.

And so you've got those examples too.

So we can see in the scripture this happens in real life, anyone seeking God in truth, God is going to find them

and get the message to them that they need to believe in order to be saved.

Okay, that's one category. Now there's another category of things. What about those who live before the time of Jesus?

How do they get saved?

Well, everybody gets saved the same way. They get saved through the means of faith as a result of God's grace based on what Jesus did.

The means of faith, by God's grace, based on what Jesus did. Those are fixed.

And the question that one now has to ask is, well, what is the object of the faith that initiates the grace of God secured for them by a Jesus they've never heard about?

And that's different at different times. I'm convinced that since the time of Jesus, well, let me back up.

The foundation, the grounding for salvation has always been the work of Christ.

But the grace through the work of Christ is received by an act of faith. But what was the object in mind in the past?

You know, Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. This is Genesis chapter 15.

And all he did was believe God's provision, his promise that from him would come a great nation and ultimately a blessing to all the nations.

He didn't have a lot of detail though Jesus did say that Abraham saw my day and rejoiced and was glad at it.

We don't have content there, but he looked ahead and he understood God was going to do something and he trusted God for that.

Not a lot of content, but he trusted God for what he knew and God reckoned righteousness to him, the righteousness that only comes to Christ.

But then he did because the the object of his faith was the promise of God.

Later on, the object of the faith was the sacrificial system by going through the sacrifice of bulls and goats.

This was a way of trusting God's provision of grace for forgiveness, which forgiveness people didn't understand then was rooted in Christ's sacrifice to come.

And then when Christ came, his sacrifice was the real and complete sacrifice. Read about this in Hebrews 10.

That replaced the partial and ineffectual sacrifice of the blood of bulls and goats.

It was adequate as an object of trust, but it wasn't a thing that saved them.

Once Jesus came, that whole sacrificial system was done with.

And now we put our faith as the object of our faith is in the one who is the foundation of our salvation and had been all along for everyone Jesus himself.

So in the Old Testament, Old Testament saints were saved the same way we are by grace through faith on the basis of what Jesus did, but they didn't know about Jesus.

So they expressed their faith in different ways, got honored that and applied the blood of Christ, the sacrifice of Christ to them to secure their forgiveness.

In the new covenant, we have a different arrangement of things.

And I recommend the standard reason teaching a eight week series called the Bible Fast Forward.

And this is the series where I teach eight sessions, 50 minutes each, and put the history of Israel together in such a way that you understand how these covenants joined with each other to have their great fulfillment

in the life of Jesus of Nazareth, the advent of the Messiah there.

And it's a beautiful way of coming together.

If you've read the story of reality, God, man, Jesus, cross, resurrection, that's the outline of the story from the beginning to the end and everything important that happens in between.

That's the subtitle.

This teaching, the Bible Fast Forward covers from man to Jesus, that whole massive section between those two elements that has to do with the history of the nation of Israel and how God worked progressively to show himself through different covenants of promises that he made so that when Jesus came, everything, the stage was all set and everything came together.

So I recommend that to you, let's see, who are we talking about covo?

And check that out and you'll get a deeper understanding of how that works together, but I'm glad you called.

And there is this teaching we have available through a standard reason called the heathen and the unknown God.

And that's where I go through all of these points in much more detail.

Anyway, Cole, thanks for the call. Let's take a break. Great Cole will hear for standard reason.

Have you ever wondered how standard reason is able to produce fresh, accessible content each week?

We rely on generous donors so that we can provide you with the tools and tactics you need to be an effective ambassador for Christ.

If you've benefited from this podcast or any of our donor provided resources, including our apps, blog posts, articles and short videos,

consider making a financial contribution to stand to reason today.

Just visit str.org slash donate to show your financial support.

It has been an honor providing you with a host of free resources for more than 27 years to help you give voice to the Christian worldview.

Help us continue by making a financial gift today at str.org slash donate.

Do you have a passion to train people in apologetics, but you don't know where to start?

You may be interested in starting an str outpost.

Str outposts are local communities of Christians seeking answers to the hard questions about Christianity.

Each outpost is led by a qualified director who trains others with str content and curriculum in their local church.

By becoming an outpost director, you'll be equipped with the content and coaching you need to lead your own outpost.

We currently have around 160 outposts, spanning 38 states and in 8 other countries, and we're adding more each month.

If you're interested in learning more about starting an outpost or you want to find a current outpost in your area, visit str.org slash outpost.

You can also email me, Trip Alman, at outpost, at str.org.

Let's go to the phones and Ryan in Market Hill, California.

I don't even know where Market Hill is. Is that the Bay Area, Ryan?

Yeah, it's kind of the very south end of the Bay Area.

It's the one city north of Gilroy, which you've been to for almost 30 years.

I missed it last year when he went to equal building.

Don't ask me what I did last week last year.

Sorry, I lost it wasn't Philly, but it's hard to keep track of at all.

Anyway, how can I help you?

Yeah, so I had a question for you about the term historically marginalized and how it's kind of been used by her left to kind of cater to or show favorite systems to people that they determine her.

Like the most historical marginalized and this helped me out of the oppression, the way to respond to that kind of terminology.

Yeah, yeah.

This is so frustrating because the left commands the rhetorical game that they know how to put things in words that make their ideas sound good.

This is not a good idea.

So the groups, so we have to we have to let's say we cater to people in a group that has been historically marginalized.

So maybe we should cater to Oprah Winfrey.

Right, yeah, she's in a group that's been historically marginalized, but she's not as she's not marginalized.

She's one of the richest women in the country.

Right.

And you know, they say Bill Cosby, you know, he's not around much anymore.

I think he's still alive.

Yeah, he is.

But I mean, he was one of the richest guys, the biggest stars, you know, 20 years ago.

Or Michael Jordan, or you just right go down the list.

There are all kinds of people of color that aren't marginalized at all.

Right.

And, and so this is why this approach sounds wonderful, but it doesn't work.

We owe you because something bad happened to your parents by our parents.

So we owe the kids owe the kids.

Yeah.

Well, I don't, well, I'm not sure that I'm trying to put that all together.

It's one thing when one individual is harmed by another individual and something is resolved between them.

It's no thing you take whole groups.

And these things are deeply, deeply influenced by philosophical political considerations.

You make certain commitments to things like critical race theory, which results in a DEI diversity, equity, and inclusion.

And then that's the motif by which you make judgments about who pays who.

It's these broad political kind of commitments that then invade against individuals.

So then I would be, my forebars are from Bohemia and Germany, right?

So why am I to pay something for others whose forebars may have been Black slaves brought over to Africa?

Right.

And so the inequities, I think, that here's another detail.

I mean, I don't have a solid clever little thing.

I'm just trying to explain why I don't think this is a sound way to look at life.

Yeah, yeah.

There's a hard to actually measure the inequities.

And what ought to be measured is not just what happened to those people, say who are enslaved in Africa brought over here, who were brought over in virtue of other Black people cooperating with the slave trade.

You know, I mean, that's where do they get the slaves?

The ships came to the coast.

The slaves came from the interior.

So who's responsible now?

You know, I mean, slavery was grotesque.

And there's all kinds of grotesque things that people did to other people over the years that we can properly condemn.

And slavery is still going on.

Slavery was over the whole world and is still over many parts of the world.

There's only a few places.

Well, it was America and Great Britain that outlawed slavery, you know, even though they were participators, they did outlawed.

And great strides have been made to try to resolve the problems that slavery caused socially.

But here's something else.

I think the comparison, when somebody says, well, they're marginalized.

This group is marginalized because of slavery.

The comparison should not be where here's a comparison I want to offer that should be taken into consideration.

It isn't like what one sees about this group compared to some other group in the United States, like blacks versus whites.

Which I don't think that's a good way to do it.

But this is the way they do it.

It's all based on color.

So, but what ought to be done is the comparison should be blacks to the same blacks that are still living in Africa where these blacks in America would have been if there hadn't been slavery.

And I promise you, they're in a whole lot better place as a consequence of the terrible crime of slavery 150 years ago, 200 years ago.

That's the comparison.

So those who are descendants of slavery possess today in America, possess one of the most valued commodities in the entire world.

And that is American citizenship.

Why doesn't that count?

Is the question I'm asking.

So that's something all of them have, regardless of where they are, what economic strata they happen to be in.

And it isn't to deny that there are consequences of slavery that is affected.

People now, but this is a payback system.

Literally it's a payback system.

We're going to pay money to these people.

That's what it means to cater to them.

We're going to say, oh, poor you and we're going to give them money.

This has, this does not have a good ending.

It has a destructive ending.

And it would be better if people, and there's a lot of black voices now that are saying this very thing.

Quit moaning and crying and whatever.

And just get to work and take advantage of the benefits of this country and you're going to pull yourself out.

And there are lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of examples of this kind of thing.

So I saw a black man addressing a school board.

And he said, I am the descendant of slaves, but I am not a victim.

I am a free man.

And I tell my daughters, you do not claim victimhood.

You get to work.

And stuff like that.

And I think that's the right answer.

Paying people, paying them off is not good for their souls.

Even presuming you could find a line of consequence from the slaves that their great, great grandparents were.

And a circumstance they now face in life today, a direct line to them.

I don't mean inherent.

I don't mean a direct line of ancestry.

I mean, a direct line of harm is what I mean.

Right.

Even if you could find that, it's still not going to be good to pay them and have who pays them.

The rest of us do, who maybe weren't even involved in that.

It's a long understanding of the way life works.

And it has a, it doesn't have a salutory effect on people.

It destroys their souls.

And I have a little clip, I don't know where I saw it, but I saved it on my desktop.

And it's got two pictures of little girls.

One is a cute little Caucasian gal, a little cowboy outfit in the cap.

And the other one is a cute little Asian Japanese girl in a kimono.

And it says here, blaming this girl, the white girl for slavery,

is like blaming this girl, the Japanese girl for Pearl Harbor.

It's clever.

It's clever because it's so sound.

You can't blame ancestors for the sins of their parents.

And it isn't the ancestors responsibility to cover the sins of somebody's parents.

But that is exactly what, in my view, as I've studied this,

I'm not an expert in critical theory or DEI or anything like that,

but as I've looked at these issues more than most,

what social justice amounts to is paybacks.

It's just paybacks, that's all it is.

People feel they have a right to take money from other groups.

I wrote a piece about this a couple of years ago, and it's on our website.

I think it's called Critical Race Theory Civil Rights Upside Down, something like that.

It's turned the whole issue of civil rights on its head.

And by the way, it's illegal.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964, this is all illegal, and it's done all the time.

It's total disregard for the Civil Rights Act that was meant to bring equity to so many,

or maybe equity isn't the right word now, because that means something different.

But equality to so many people give them an even shot.

Now the idea is equity, they have to be brought up to par with everybody else in consequence,

not in opportunity.

And that's just the wrong understanding of human nature,

how the world works and everything.

I don't know of Ryan interested in hearing your thoughts,

but I don't know of one liner or a quickie that's going to make the point,

except for my comment about Oprah Winfrey.

You mean like Oprah Winfrey or Michael Jordan?

Well, not them, why not?

So how does this actually work?

I think the little vignette, the picture about blaming her for slavery is like blaming this other one for Pearl Harbor.

I think that really in a short snappy way gets right to the heart of the issues.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I agree.

And I was thinking even more along the lines of this, you know, the whole kind of transgender movement going on,

you see in California with biological males and women's sports,

and there's this big uproar about that in terms of the left lean people.

It's also like, I see this sort of battle between what I call empathy versus fairness.

And I just feel like a lot of that, you know, the left is more,

well, we're the empathetic ones because we're carrying about these transgender people

that are more like kind of a recent but historically marginalized group that they need to be.

We need to show them sort of favoritism.

Yeah.

And then, you know, my side, I mean, I guess I would lean more on the fairness side for these women when there's an obvious biological advantage for males.

In these sports.

Right.

Of course.

And go ahead, I'm sorry.

Yeah.

Oh, no, I was just going to say, I mean, I feel like I'm also being empathetic in a way,

but I guess for the other side, they just see it as big a tree.

Yeah.

Right.

Well, this is where they are masters at the language game.

To support transgenderism is not an example of loving my neighbor.

It's an example of doing my neighbor harm because this is a pathological circumstance.

When you think that you are not, your insights do not match your outsides.

Well, they acknowledge that's a problem.

So they want to change their outsides to match their insides.

Okay.

So everybody knows is, I mean, implicitly they're acknowledging there's something is wrong here.

And when they're empathetic towards the transgender boys who are competing against the girls,

they are not empathetic towards all these women who are not only being cheated out of their sports victories,

but they sometimes are being hurt and damaged because they have to compete against boys that hurt them.

And you know about the male who spiked the ball into the female's face and the boxer in the Olympics.

And there are lots of examples of this kind of stuff going on.

So it's dangerous.

Where's the empathy?

Where is this sense of empathy?

If we are going to be empathetic, then we ought to care for the goodness of what befalls those who are struggling with gender dysphoria.

And encouraging their dysphoria is not helping them.

And just as a point of information though, it's like it isn't as if those who are gender dysfork or transgender now

are not getting support from the culture.

They're getting support everywhere.

You turn.

Yeah.

The ones that are dist completely are those ones that are not sympathetic to that way of dealing with it.

And that's why they're called bigoted and hateful and those kinds of things.

That group that is really being marginalized in our country.

What about the empathy towards them?

So this is like tolerance.

Empathy and tolerance is all the one way street.

It's my way or the highway.

What's mine is mine and what yours is mine too.

That's the way this works.

And they dress it up with all this clever language to make it sound like it's noble when it's not.

So there you go.

Yeah.

I totally agree.

I think it's a lot of rhetoric that, you know, especially on, it used to be this stuff was just online.

But, you know, obviously now it's spilled out big time in the, you know, actual culture and society.

And it's just, it's got just a huge mess.

Hey, look, we've got an entire month out of 12.

One-twelfth of the calendar is devoted to celebrating LGBTQ, lesbian, gay, transgendered, bisexual, questioning,

and whatever other letters they're going to add next.

But you see the culture by and large is on the side.

What this is an attempt to do is just silence any opposition under the guise of being empathetic and loving and kind.

It's not of those things.

It's just a power play.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think California added a transgender, transgendered month to a different month.

I think probably like May or something like that.

Yes.

Listen, I live in an armpit, a moral armpit.

I'm just telling you.

It's terrible.

All right, Ryan.

Yeah.

Cool.

All right.

Okay.

Good to talk to you.

Appreciate your call.

Yeah.

Thanks, Greg.

Okay.

Okay.

All right.

All right.

All right.

All right.

All right.

Let's take a break.

And then we'll get to Darren and Newberry Park with his question and probably the final question of the show.

Be back in a minute.

Hey, friends.

Would you like to be encouraged throughout your week with timely, relevant content meant to bolster your knowledge, wisdom, and character?

Or maybe you have a desire to be connected with other like-minded Christians from around the world.

You can follow Stan to Reason on social media.

You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube.

Not only will you be able to interact with other Stan to Reason followers, but you'll also stay up to date and informed on our latest resources and events.

In our current culture, it's important to have something of value to break up your social media feed.

So just visit str.org and find the links to all of our social media platforms at the bottom of the homepage.

Are you looking for a community where you can grow in your understanding of Christianity and learn how to defend your faith?

Consider joining an SCR outpost.

SCR outposts are groups of believers within a local church dedicated to exploring answers to the hard questions about Christianity.

Each outpost is led by a trained director who uses SCR's content and curriculum to equip members with the tools they need to think clearly and engage confidently with their faith.

With around 160 outposts across 38 states and in eight other countries and growing, you're likely to find one near you.

Joining an outpost is a great way to connect with others, deepen your knowledge, and be better equipped to make an impact in your community for Christ.

To find an outpost in your area, learn more or to consider becoming an outpost director yourself, visit str.org-outposts or email me, trip-allman, at outposts.str.org.

All right. Getting a flood of calls here in the last few minutes, I'm glad to see them, so let's go right away to Darren and Newberry Park.

Darren, my neighbor.

Hey, Greg.

I was laughing at your comment. I'm up here in the what you call the moral armpit with you.

Well, I mean, if you got to be in the armpit, Newberry Park is a pretty nice part of the armpit to be on.

You know, Middle America is nice. The climate rate is low. You're outside of this sprawl and the Koneho Valley, the rabbit valley, and anyway.

So what's on your mind today, Darren?

I just, I had a question. I know I forget the name of the caller earlier, you were talking about the.

Well, Philip and the Ethiopian Unic, and which was.

I mean, that was out in the far country in the biblical time, Sudan, basically, or Kush, I guess.

And I think you said something to I've gone paraphrasing or trying to do this by memory, but for those that would seek God, he got the word to them.

And then I was thinking of Romans three word talks about no one being righteous, no one understands, no one seeks for God.

And I'm just, I guess I'm trying to juxtapose those two ideas.

What was the first one? Could you say it again?

Like I said, I'm doing this. You know, I don't have a quote from you in front of me, but I think you said that for those that were seeking God.

I see, okay, well, that's right. I did say that. And there is a, well, I'm glad you asked this so I can clarify.

There's a little detail that I left out in this, it based on my conviction of the scriptural teaching.

People are going to be running from God. That is their standard posture to God.

And they're running from God because their wills are bent against God.

And or I should say maybe inclined away from God. They are in rebellion. Jesus said that the light has come into the world and men love darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil.

Okay. So that's, that's the, the Romans three aspect basically. Now what, but there are people who seek after God.

I sought after God at one point in my life, but what, why is the question?

And I think what Paul is talking about here in Romans three is the natural state of man.

And in, and this is why that section that you cited from Romans 3, 10 and following all the way down to 19, up to 18, that's all Old Testament that he cited.

And then he says in verse 19, now we know that whatever the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God.

Remember that Paul's making an argument here and the argument has to do with the fallenness of man and everybody, no one, it has any excuse.

In Romans 1, we saw that in Romans 2 and now in Romans 3, we have the same point implicitly that every mouth will be closed.

Okay. Man needs salvation. The, the wages of sin or death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus or Lord. Okay.

So how does, what changes, what changes is God has to do some work in rebellious man's heart for him to turn to God.

Now, our minions and, and reform people are going to cash that out how much God does in different ways.

But nevertheless, we all agree for that with that because of this fallen nature that is exemplified here in chapter 3.

So when there are people who are, as I put it in the other piece, truly seeking after God, when there are people who are doing that,

they are doing it because God has already begun working in their heart.

And so God is not going to work in their heart to, to instill at least at some level repentance in their heart without then giving them what they need to finish the job.

You know, and this, like I said, you can cash this out in our minion and our minion sense or in a reform sense, but God's going to follow through.

If he is opening their eyes in some measure to see, then he will give them what they need.

And this is exactly what we see, say in Acts chapter 10, I mentioned for Cornelius. God, he was seeking.

Now, how do we assess Cornelius in light of Romans 3? Well, that wasn't.

He was non-righteous, not even one, none who seeks after God. Well, he's seeking after God. Yes, because God is seeking after him.

He's breaking through this. In some sense, how much, how determinative that action of God is is going to be different talking to different people.

But nevertheless, we all agree there's something that's got to be done to overcome this terrible condition that Paul is describing in Romans 3.

So that's the sense in which I was referring to that.

If they're genuinely seeking after God, subtext, and they wouldn't be unless God were already moving in their heart, then God's going to give them what he is moving in their heart to find.

Makes sense?

Absolutely.

So that's what the head of mine. I've got a head of chance to qualify to clarify that.

So that's great. I'm just thinking because I think what that caller, again, I can't remember his name is sort of.

It's kind of the question that I run into a lot from non-believers is, well, what about all these people that don't believe in Jesus, which I think was the question.

And I think, you know, the further you go back in antiquity before essentially before Christianity was birthed.

And like you were saying, people were saved by grace through faith at all times.

Just the amount of people had to be infant, personal and small that were saved, right?

Yeah, one would think at that time.

Correct.

Without God and without hope in the world, Paul says in Ephesians 2.

Exactly.

And so now, I mean, the word the Bible is ubiquitous and it's everywhere.

And which was a blessing.

Yeah. And the population is much greater now.

And so with the massive movement of people, it seems like though with Jesus spoke, he said,

Narrow is the way and fewer those who find it brought us the way of destruction and many are those who end up there.

That equation may change.

Maybe that was too then, but it might be in towards the end that massive numbers of people and maybe all things considered overall time since Adam to the end.

More people are going to be saved because the larger numbers now and the ubiquity of biblical teaching and stuff that we have in the world today.

So I think it's a good point.

Okay, I got to run.

I got another call around.

Thank you.

Yeah, you're welcome.

Good talking to you.

Okay.

Bye.

Let's see.

And we made it to Jim in Pennsylvania, Jim.

Welcome.

Hey.

Hi.

I'm Greg.

So good to get a chance to talk to you in person.

Okay.

Here's the thing.

You know, when I listened to you, I thought, you know, years past I even took your course.

Well, when I listened to you, and I hear you, you say that, you know, God exists.

You know, you could see evidence for based on creation and based on, you know, on morality.

Sure.

That makes sense to me.

I'm with you on that.

But where, where I get a little bit lost is this whole concept that there, that, you know, I'm looking at it from 10,000 feet.

Okay.

I've been in Christian church a long time, but just looking at it from 10,000 feet.

How is it that there's this man, God create a man, God person or entity?

And then when that man, God dies, and you believe in it, whatever that means, that, that absolves you, that, that, that, that absolves you from your moral shortcomings.

And what kind of, what kind of a world does something like that even make sense?

It's hard for me to see how you, a logical person could, could buy into it.

Why you wouldn't say, why are you kidding?

So that's my question.

Okay.

Yeah.

Unfortunately, we have one in about four minutes to go, but I'll do my best here.

But I'm a little confused why you say that this is just, just like, you know, it makes no sense.

And you say, believe whatever that means.

Are you saying you don't know in the Christian sense what belief has to, what, what part belief plays in?

Okay.

I understand it.

The right to the heart of the issue is how does it make sense that when one person dying on the cross, it solves me or you from our moral shortcomings.

Okay.

No, no part of the world you ever see such a thing.

Yeah.

Okay.

So let me try to, to offer some thoughts that might help you a little bit.

First of all, it isn't just a guy dying on a cross because lots of people died across and there was no efficacy to it.

It was the God man who came to die on a cross.

And what happened on the cross is not just that he suffered, Jesus suffered at the hands of men that he did.

His greatest suffering was the suffering at the hands of God himself who poured out his wrath on Jesus.

Okay.

Which makes no sense to me at all.

So it makes no sense to you that, that a, a sovereign would punish someone for sins.

Or crimes against the sovereign.

I just one guy for another guy.

Okay.

All right.

I get that.

If that's the part that's hanging you up.

Okay.

Let me give you a real simple illustration.

Do you have children?

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

Did you, I mean, presumably the very simple illustration.

Maybe your, your, your son or daughter, when they're 17, they're caught speeding.

They get a bill and they go, oh my gosh, I got this bill.

I got to go to traffic class and the bill cost me like, it all cost me about, you know, X and Y, two, three hundred bucks.

I got the ticket for 200 bucks, a hundred bucks in a class.

Could you pay that?

Oh, absolutely.

I think it's really human.

Okay.

So you could do.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, let's slow down.

Let me just step through it.

Okay.

So if you could pay for their crime against the state, the state is half satisfied with that.

Right.

You are the substitute paying on their behalf so that the justice of the state is satisfied.

Does that make sense?

Okay.

Okay.

So in principle then, a, a divine sovereign over the world could be willing to accept the payment of a substitute for the crimes that we had committed against him as a parallel with the ticket that I just described.

Okay.

I don't buy it.

But I, but you know, I understand that.

Okay.

So, okay.

If you understand it then, that means at least it makes sense.

It isn't like nonsensical.

You may not believe that that's what it is.

I mean, I understand your works.

I don't mean I understand that it makes sense to me.

It is not rational.

Period.

There's a, there is different as night and day.

Oh, one, tell me you're paying for your paying money.

But I don't go to jail because my son killed somebody.

Okay.

Okay.

I have to pay compensation to different things that you're mixing up on my point of view.

Yeah.

Okay.

So I just got half a minute here.

So, uh, I reason I gave you the ticket illustration is because in principle,

we understand how substitution could work even with her own governmental system.

Now, it's not quite the same in gravity.

I understand that, but it is similar in kind.

Now, the big issue here, the critical issue is what satisfies the one offended.

The government is happy for you.

That's fine.

As long as they get their, their 20 bucks or 200 bucks or whatever,

if you pay it for your kid, they're fine with that.

The question is whether the sovereign in question right now,

God is going to be satisfied with the payment that actually he makes incarnate in the Son of Jesus

for the crimes we committed and his answer to us is yes.

He is satisfied with that, providing a means for mercy.

If there is no means for mercy, either put it this way, either Jesus pays or we pay.

Either Jesus pays or we pay.

If he doesn't pay, then we're stuck with the bill.

And that will take us forever to pay it.

Something to chew on.

Give me a call back, Jim.

And maybe next week, and we'll chat some more about this.

I do appreciate your call.

Great cochlea for stand a reason.

Give them a have a trends.

Bye-bye.

You