What makes a good Premier League owner?

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The Athletic FC.

Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimolero.

The Premier League currently and historically has seen a wide range of ownership models

from local businessmen to sovereign well funds.

But what exactly makes a good owner?

All right, in with us today, we've got Matt Slater.

We've also got Andy Mitton as well, a regular on our talk of the Devils podcast.

Right, Matt set the scene for us.

Give us a sense of the different ownership models that currently exist in the Premier League.

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking Tony Bloom at Brighton,

the Saudi Investment Fund at Newcastle United.

Good start, well, I know.

I was thinking about doing a really short pot and saying what makes a really good owner.

They've got to be bloody loaded and spend all their money on my football scene, end of pot.

If you read social media, that appears to be the criteria for good ownership.

But anyway, what if we go on the Premier League at the moment?

Well, about half of them, almost exactly half of them, 10 of them,

are owned either by US Billionaires or combinations of US Billionaires

and or US funds.

So they're owned by very rich Americans.

Then we've got about four clubs.

Brentford, Brighton, Spursdale, Westham, who are mainly controlled by, if you like,

old-fashioned old-school, local Brits, wealthy Brits.

We've got a couple, Forest and Sunderland, who are owned by rich Europeans.

We've got one, still from the China Wave.

Wolves, hang on in there.

Two, owned by big golf entities.

Saudi Arabia and Abu Dhabi, they own UCASL and Manchester City.

And then there's one that I'm going to put in a little group of its own.

Andy, which one?

It's your club.

They're some, they're some, they're some, they are a bit of a hybrid, right?

Yes, they are, like the classic archetypal American Billionaire club.

But they're also owns a big minority stake, significant minority stake,

by a very, very rich British Billionaire, who at the moment has a sort of disproportionately large

say over things, thanks to the sort of unique nature of the deal he did with the glazes.

You know, he has, he says, you know, final say over football matters.

And I think one of the great big debates about Mason I said at the moment is what is,

you know, where does that end?

You know, stadium, who's making the call there?

You know, I'd like to hear Andy's view on that one.

So I think man United, as in so many conversations are in a kind of group of one.

Yeah, I mean, what do we call man United, Andy?

It's been really interesting having this conversation about club ownership,

but also fundamentally what makes a good owner.

So Manchester United, this hybrid of a club with technically two-ish owners,

where do they sit in the scale of being good owners?

Well, I've done United, we've stand the fanzine since 1989,

and I would say that most Manchester United fans have not liked the owner's stroke decision-makers

for the entirety, which you might find odd, but I can back you up with all the receipts

even when you're winning the treble.

And I think there's a, there's a couple of reasons for that.

The decision-makers who've often been the owners,

I've got to make the decisions like putting ticket prices,

or maybe there's an element of fans thinking that they can do better.

They have to make the unpopular decisions.

And I've seen Manchester United go from being privately owned to being a PLC,

and when it went to being a PLC in 1991,

the share offering, the uptake was so low that Manchester United was valued at £42 million

and had to be underwritten.

And so many times fans have looked back and gone, we had our chance there, we missed our chance.

But I remember the sentiment around it was that we can't afford to buy shares

and go to Rotterdam for the Cup winners Cup Final in the same month.

So again, blaming the people who've decided to make it public.

In 98, B-Sky B tried to buy Manchester United, the fans protested.

And then the early notice, you saw Manchester United being so successful financially

and on the pitch that they became increasingly attractive.

So by 2003, 2004, I was asking the Chief Executive David Gill about a family called the Glazers

in the United States, and he was assuring me that they were heavily invested into sports

and he had no issue with them.

The fans had a very different view.

There were significant protests.

And the Glazers ended up taking control in 05, could see of a highly leveraged buyout,

which was controversial then, and it is now.

And United have been operating under the cloud, and that's what it is,

of the Glazer ownership for over two decades.

And then in 2023-24, they went to market, basically, because Manchester United were losing money.

Nobody was sure how that was going to look and how it ended up looking was

Sir Jim Ratcliffe and Anyos taking a significant share in the club, but not a controlling share.

But crucially, they were allowed to run the club.

And I sense that the Glazers were like, OK, well, we've had a go at it, we're not popular.

You have a go at it.

And from any of us's perspectives, if it was like, we can do this better than you.

So you have the current ownership model starting to become unpopular.

But there was a desperation that things were going to change under Jim Ratcliffe.

That when in November 24, Ratcliffe walked onto the pitch at Old Trafford,

and presented Bruno Fernandez with an award for 250 appearances, he was applauded.

And I'm like, this isn't normal.

This is absolutely not normal.

And this will change because something will happen where the fans turn against.

It was always going to happen.

And I also think a lot of fans will never be happy.

They use their football club as an emotional crutch.

My father was moaning in Barcelona the day after winning the treble.

He would never, ever have been happy with Manchester United.

And there are a lot of fans like that. That is their default reaction.

Okay, well, let's move on because we've got a lot to cover.

Let's break this down into a few sections.

Firstly, I mean, you've touched on a little bit there, Andy.

Let's talk about investment, Matt, when it comes to investing in your club.

How important is that in outlining what makes a good owner?

Yeah, investment is, investment is everything, right?

Well, otherwise, what's the point?

I mean, you could buy something and just sit on it, okay?

I like some property or a gold mine or a tobacco company.

Very passive investment.

You sort of think, well, that's not going out of fashion.

That's a bit boring, isn't it?

Is that what we're into sport?

I mean, some clearly this idea of this sport has become this asset class

and we should just think about it in the same way we think about government bonds or shares.

So clearly, some people are doing that.

And it certainly makes sense more in the US sports model,

where clubs, sports teams make money.

They certainly don't lose money, right?

Because they share revenue, they share talent,

there's no relegation, they're closed systems.

But, okay, we just think about what we talk about, right?

So open system, the Premier League of Pyramid, very, very competitive,

not just competitive domestically, but competitive internationally.

So, you know, there are big, powerful rivals here in the country,

but they're also when you go playing Europe.

So it's a very complicated pace.

So what is the point, unless you're going to invest?

And this is where I sort of break it down now.

In my first sort of slight glib answer,

most fans seem to think investment means in the team.

Buy me more players, right?

It's part of the soap opera of the sport.

It's hope, isn't it?

But that's important.

The hope piece is important,

gets you through the summer, cell season tickets,

gets the sponsors excited.

But equally, it's more than hope, right?

It's, you know, we need to invest in the team, right?

But players get old, they move on.

No one's standing still.

We do need, you know, we need

compensation for places, all that stuff, right?

So it's real.

You do have to invest in the team.

But so often the conversation comes around,

well, they're not investing enough,

or they're not investing on the player that I wanted,

at the time I wanted them.

And I would those say, while that is important,

it's the other types of investment

that are more medium-term, more long-term,

you know, that will either sustain you going forward

or raise your status within the game.

So big capital expenditure stuff,

like your stadium,

is your stadium the right size?

Is it up to date?

You know, does it have a really good Wi-Fi?

Does it have the right hospitality sections?

Does it have a nice lose?

Nice food and beer,

because our tastes have changed.

You know, what we expect

when we go to live entertainment,

sport has changed.

For the better, I would argue.

I mean, not, not, you know,

there's swings from, there's pros and cons, right?

But I think generally speaking,

from where we were in the 80s and 90s,

to where we are now, is better.

But then also it's things like the training ground,

good scouting, good health, good HR,

investing in people.

So, you know, there is so much to it

that to go back to your question,

yes, investment is essential.

Otherwise, you are just sitting there

as sort of as an absentee landlord,

kind of counting the money.

What are you doing with this thing

that I, the fan, care so much about?

So yeah, sure answer, absolutely crucial.

Then it's like, where you're allocating your resources,

you know, is it the first theme?

Is that all that I care about?

Are you making my experience

when I go to the game better?

Maybe I'm not a match day going fan, right?

You know, in this day and age,

so much of the conversation,

so much of what we deal with is,

is people who aren't going to match days,

you know, they're not,

they're not season to get hold of us.

Are my touch points with the club good?

You know, is the social media good?

Is the, you know, do we have a TV channel?

You know, is the, is the merch good?

All that stuff is, it's, it's, it's the whole thing.

And yes, you have to invest in it.

And that's just basically outlines just

what makes a good owner.

And it's not just about buying players fundamentally.

But we, you look at somewhere like Everton, for instance,

something we spoke about at this point,

quite a few times.

If I had Machiri invested a lot at Everton,

but didn't quite seem to work out.

We've talked about French clubs,

where, you know, they've invested heavily

into the club, but doesn't seem to work out.

Just because you pop money in,

doesn't necessarily mean the result is going to be great.

I've seen it happen.

And Machiri is probably the most extreme example,

where fans are constantly pleading,

more investment, more money.

Okay, here you are.

Here you are with a new stadium.

And it doesn't work for them.

I saw it at Derby County with Mel Morris.

Very popular.

He put a lot of money in.

He was a very wealthy individual.

He tried to get them into the Premier League.

He came as close as he can get.

They had average crowds of 32, 33,000.

Some of their executives moved on to the biggest clubs in England.

They were doing a really good job.

But they still failed.

They didn't reach the promised land of the Premier League.

And then his popularity with fans declined.

Because fans always want to see progress.

And it is impossible for all clubs to progress

and go up all at a time.

Some clubs have to finish bottom of the league.

And I've seen it in non-league as well.

I think it's a real issue in non-league

where you'll get a wealthy benefactor

who pumps money in.

And every league they go up,

it doubles or triples in terms of what you need to be paying players.

And when they pull the rug or walk away for whatever reason,

it can often leave a club in limbo.

So we talk about fit and proper people.

And I've seen many bad examples at that.

And I was writing about,

Beria was up there in 2019.

There are a lot of individuals in football

who are absolutely not fit and proper.

But it happens right through the pyramid.

You can be at level eight

and you can find on scrupulous people

being involved in football.

So why do you attract it to football?

They might make the money in an industry that's considered pretty boring.

But if you're involved in the local football club,

then you're a person of significant interest in the town.

You have queued us.

People want to hear what you want to say.

In football clubs have long been attractive

to wealthy people domestically.

But what's happened in the Premier League

and even the championship

is it's become international.

And I'm sat here now at Hall City

which is a successful club,

the owners from Turkey.

And a lot of money has been spent

in this league

and a lot of football clubs in this league

are losing a lot of money.

So if you want to see,

is it a substantial model football?

Is it sustainable?

It often isn't.

So many clubs chase the dream.

And at Manchester United,

they were profitable.

It was an outlier.

But even Manchester United became unprofitable,

started losing £90m per season.

And that's why they needed to change in the ownership model.

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Be 21.

All right, let's move on.

What about success?

Because I often think about a team like Manchester United

and how successful they have been.

But then we've also seen this weird period

where behind the scenes things don't look

as great as what we've seen on the field for time.

And I would say post Alex Ferguson,

a lot of that's been a lot more evident.

Andy, can success mask a dysfunctional club?

Yes, it can because success is the only barometer

of what a successful club looks like for a lot of football clubs.

You can see how the mood is set within a football club

if the team of one at the weekend.

I see it and it frustrates me

because of a club like Manchester United.

It is so turbulent and there's extreme over reactions

according to every win or defeat.

And that's partly because it becomes global.

You've got different demographics of different fans,

one in different things.

But they all want win, win, wins.

And I don't think that social media helps

in terms of fan reaction

because it encourages extreme reaction.

And I don't think any tech giant wants balance and context

when you can get lots of yelling and shouting.

But I think success is judged by way of finishing the league

and silverware.

For some club success is survival.

I think that the aims of clubs depends

on where they are, season to season.

I'm at Hall City today.

I spoke to some people who said at the start of this season

the aim was for a top 10 finish.

They're now fifth in the league.

So now the aim is to get into the playoffs.

So what is success can change on a month to month basis?

Where do we put FSG on this as ownership

for Liverpool?

Two Premier League titles met.

Champions League during their time as well.

They bought the club in 2010.

So they've been around a long time.

So that means we've got a lot of like data to look at if you like.

They've won everything.

FA cups, league cups,

club world cups, super cups.

So you know, they've kind of, okay,

they've ticked a lot of boxes there.

They're not universally loved.

I mean, no one's going to universally

love another football team's ownership, are they?

But even within their own fan base,

they haven't got everything right.

They've been missteps for sure.

So quite early on,

they tried to introduce a 77 pound match.

They tick it.

They got that wrong.

There was another

misstep, I suppose, where

whilst I could understand what they were trying to do,

they tried to sort of copy right Liverpool.

They were very worried about kind of fake merch being sold.

But they kind of, that was a bit clumsy.

They were also involved with project big picture,

which again,

didn't land well.

I could kind of see elements of it,

but the sort of secretive nature of it wasn't great.

They were in cahoots with Andy's club,

and then, of course, the big one,

you know, European Super League.

You know, they were very much on the wrong side of that one.

So in that 16 year period,

where they get plenty right,

so they, they've won stuff.

They found their guy, Klopp.

Right?

You know, he wasn't the first guy they hired,

but they got him in the building,

and they backed him.

They won plenty of stuff.

They could have won more,

but for a kind of, you know,

generational successful team in terms of Man City,

what's in their misses.

A couple of runners up in the Champions League as well.

I think the very

sensitively done,

and bear in mind how hard it is to build stuff,

you know, pretty good job in terms of timing and budget,

redevelopment of Amfield,

big tick there.

That also, I think, was a real commitment to the area of Amfield.

The training ground, you know,

they've kind of, they've moved them native to Kirkby,

and that's, you know, again, sort of state of the art.

You know, so they've,

they have made the capsule expenditure stuff.

They've definitely kind of raised Liverpool's profile.

It's kind of socials.

It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's merch.

They've got a lot of like kind of decisions,

like that kind of commercial decisions right.

They found a good manager.

They backed him in the transfer market.

But are they perfect?

And I suppose it goes back to Andy's answer.

You know, that, that, that kind of,

they've just won the treble,

and someone's still unhappy.

I don't know if they'll be all hung over.

I was, it was your dad, right?

You know, but, but, you know, equally fans art,

fans art, you know, I never, I never, you know,

the number of times kind of like Liverpool,

F-S-G seem to be learning from its mistakes,

and seem to be kind of really close.

And then all I would read was negativity around,

well, why haven't we spent 300 million this summer?

F-S-G out.

I mean, F-S-G out as a hashtag was, was, was a thing for,

for a very long, you know, at least a year or so.

And of course, now they've spent a load of money

in the transfer market, and, you know, that hasn't quite worked yet.

But, you know, so, yeah, I find F-S-G kind of fascinating to be honest,

because when they came in, we were so used to having a,

either a local Mr. Big, or I was just a Mr. Big from somewhere,

that it was very much around John W. Henry.

If you go, if you go back to the reporting of it,

and for quite a few years, it was him.

He's the principal owner. He's the guy that we can understand.

We need a, we need a face and a name.

But F-S-G are a syndicate.

There's like 30 people involved.

You know, John W. Henry is, is, is one of many.

You know, there's also people in that syndicate now,

and there's not their website,

but we don't, we don't talk about Jimmy Iovine,

do we, like, record producer,

or all of, but we talk a little bit about,

look, do you want LeBron James from Time to Time,

but Maverick Carter is, you know, his agent's in there.

As are, you know, 15 other wealthy Americans who own chunks.

As are two relatively large US sports funds,

arcs or some redbird, redbird, who are they?

See my hand, by the way.

So, F-S-G is a really kind of complicated beast

that, for a lot of its lifetime,

or certainly our experience of it in this country,

we've treated as, well, just to simplify it,

because it's complicated.

It's John W. Henry.

Yeah, I do wonder as well,

following on from something Matt just said,

can a charismatic manager, i.e.

Yogan Club, for instance, deflect away from

what's going on in the background with the ownership, Andy,

because let's face it, at this point,

we're looking at Liverpool as a team,

and everyone's saying,

how on earth does Ana Slot get something out of this team?

But the big conversation, as well,

is how have they recruited so badly

in certain positions on the field?

Yes, going to Manchester United, man, about Liverpool, so...

I was obviously delighted to be sent to Madrid as a journalist

to watch Liverpool lift the European Cup in 2019,

and then back to Paris a couple of years later,

I found myself reporting on how the crowd mistreatment

and doing it properly.

I think you've got to do stuff like that,

and Liverpool fans, that was outrageous what went on in Paris.

I think Matt's answer is really good.

There's a couple of points I'd add to it.

Liverpool were playing catch-up,

because in the 1990s,

they failed to expand Anfield,

whereas Manchester United and others aggressively expanded

the capacity.

Liverpool didn't, so as an element of catch-up,

they've been smartly run, far smarter than Manchester United.

I've seen little glimpses,

I know individuals who were there, who I respect,

and I remember being on the preseason tour in America in 2018,

man United against Liverpool,

playing in Michigan,

and Liverpool were just miles ahead in terms of their local

community engagement in terms of acknowledging the fans

who traveled over from Liverpool to different demographics

within their fan base,

their recruitment of footballers,

Jürgen Klopp was clearly a transformational for them,

so it's been very, very well run.

But Matt's point about FSG out was really interesting.

It shows that some fans are not far away at all

from turning against whoever is in charge.

It was really interesting to me a couple of years ago

to see some Liverpool fans,

where I don't think had ever been to Anfield,

trying to organise a protest march outside Anfield against the owners,

and they couldn't get any real-life traction.

And that showed to me the disconnect between social media anger

and real-life sensibilities.

And I think the fans inside the stadiums

tend to be more sensible,

tend to be more balanced

than some of the extremities that you get online.

But even Liverpool, which by most measures

has been a hugely successful football club,

they have missed that, they have made mistakes,

Matt's highlighted them on.

I'm only ever a month away from some of their own fans turning on them.

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You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Iawakima Lera.

Do you know what, Matt?

Andy brings me nicely onto something.

It is fans.

It is the relationship with the fans and understanding those fans as well.

So let's start on one of the more positive ones.

Let's talk about Tony Bloom, Matthew, Benham, Brighton,

Brentford, respectively.

How important is it that I guess these are their clubs?

Yeah, I think it's very important.

It's about, for me, authenticity,

and credibility, right?

So those two, no one disputes that they are fans of their clubs.

Now, a lot of owners, particularly as you go further down the pyramid,

would say the same.

You know, I am a fan.

There is a fan in the board.

There's often a kind of, you know, people don't say,

well, when he fans on the board, well, sometimes the owners will go,

I'm a fan, you know, don't forget me.

And I think in Bloom, in Benham's case,

emphatically so.

You know, Bloom has put so much money into Brighton.

And he's done a lot of it in terms of that kind of more medium, long-term,

capital expenditure investment, but also kind of like

the scouting, the data, the analysis,

the structures that make Brighton Brighton, right?

It's USP.

It's so much wraps up with Bloom.

And I think everyone believes when he says he's Brighton Fan, right?

There's just that, yes, yes, you are.

Benham, similar, right?

Perhaps not to the same size of check.

So quantity, you know, he's been a more modest investor.

He's been quite consistent, you know, for a long long time.

Before he kind of took proper control, he was just lending the support of trust money.

Very quietly, he didn't want publicity, you know,

and his involvement in the club has grown.

And of course, Brentford have moved.

They've moved to this fantastic new stadium.

For them, it's a good size.

Again, on budget, pretty much on time.

Just getting these projects done.

I don't think anyone should underestimate that.

Building a new football stadium in London.

You know, wow, well done.

So, you know, huge kudos to those two guys.

And I think the fact that they are fans massively helps them.

It gives them credibility.

It buys them time if they had a few missteps.

If they got relegated, I just don't see anyone getting upset with those two people.

They've got so much right.

They have so much credit in the bank.

Just as an interesting contrast, you know,

we've mentioned the gym record at the start.

You know, he, of course, in some ways, was meant to be that guy for Manchester United.

And I think the problem he has is this credibility authenticity issue.

Yes, we know his backstory.

Yes, we believe these from Falesworth, where there is, you know, self-made guy.

You know, yes, we can sort of see that he, you know,

went to Manchester United as a kid and all that.

But I'm not sure.

I know, this is just a neutral outside of here.

So maybe Andy will disagree.

I'm not sure I really believe

that he is the great big Manchester United fan.

He says he is because we know, right?

When he was in London, you know, he went to Chelsea.

We know before he bought Manchester United,

he was making over to us to Barcelona.

We know that he bought Nice.

We know that he's done loads of other stuff.

And he's sort of come back to Manchester United.

He's kind of late in the day, having not been around.

Yeah, he says things like that.

And I was my favourite player.

And you know, there's some bits that are, all right.

Okay. So maybe you are a big, mean, I see a fan.

But I don't know.

I just not sure I believe it in the same way that I absolutely believe.

Matthew Benham is a Brentford fan.

You're talking along the right lines here with Jim Rackliff

because when I've interviewed him, I said,

what was your first Manchester United game?

And he didn't know.

And if you're a football fan of any club,

you absolutely know what your first game was.

And I feel that sometimes fans can be too judgmental,

you know, where were you at Duke La Praga way in 1985?

You know, a proper fan if you were there.

But I think in the case that she's Jim Rackliff,

his fan, Qdos, has been overplayed.

I know some very, very wealthy people who've gone to United

for 20, 30, 40 years.

You've never seen him at a game.

And the Chelsea stuff obviously doesn't aid

your credentials as a Manchester United fan.

He grew up in Manchester.

It does have a very impressive background story.

I think that stands him in good stead,

having had 20 years of US ownership.

I don't think that would be judged positively by Manchester United fans.

So you think in this guy's a local guy, he's made a lot of money.

He's not a young kid anymore.

Is he going to want to leave a legacy?

Is his involvement of Manchester United going to be him?

Returning Manchester United to Greatest again,

which plays back into the factors such as ego.

And I don't think it matters massively

that he wasn't a home in a way Manchester United fan.

It helps.

There are people who work at every football club

who are not fans at that club,

as long as they are good professionals and they're honest.

I know some people who work at United over years

they might have supported Aberdeen or Southampton.

And they're still really, really good at the job.

So being a fan, it can help.

But be careful that you don't overplay your credentials as a fan.

I think with Sir Jim Ratcliffe,

if he does redevelop all traffic or build a new stadium,

which is what he wants to do.

If Manchester United returns a pre-eminence,

then he will be judged as a success.

But you can misstep every single week if you're not careful.

And there's been several examples where he has made mistakes.

Yeah, someone who might not be deemed as a fan

was Mike Ashley at Newcastle.

Andy and I know you have very strong feelings about that ownership.

But from the outside looking in,

an ownership that really pulled fans apart.

I mean, some of the scenes at St James's Park,

the banners, the big chance.

It was not a great atmosphere towards the end of the tenure, was it?

So the first time I went there under Ashley,

was for a game against Sunderland,

and he was in his honeymoon period.

Where he'd bought his new toy, he'd bought a new shirt,

he stood on the terraces, he had a pie, he had a pine.

And the Jordies wanted to believe in this savior,

because they'd had a rough previous ownership,

and they welcomed him in.

But because the team didn't improve,

because they were not successful,

you're using up that banker credit all the time.

So Matt's quite rightly pointing out,

the huge banker credit at Brighton or Brentford.

But that's because traditionally,

these have not been teams who've played in the Premier League,

Newcastle United are a giant of a football club.

They should be at the top end of the Premier League.

My uncle managed them in the 1950s,

and they were the best supported team in England,

and he couldn't bring them a league title.

And when he went there,

he sought the advice of Samantha Busby.

Should I take the Newcastle United job?

And he said, they'll have 30,000 there to watch the kit's dry.

And of course, it's an exaggeration,

but it showed how big they were.

And Mike Ashley,

went from being the most popular man in the room

to being persona non grata.

And part of that is on the fickleness of football fans.

But also don't take advantage of the loyalty of football fans.

Football fans are not stupid.

One of the greatest virtues of football fans is their loyalty.

They fill the stadium every week,

and yes, some can change the tune,

and players go from hero to zeros.

But there is a bedrock of loyalty

that should not be taken advantage of.

And I've seen so many chances come into football

and talk a good story.

Action usually speaks louder than words.

And Newcastle United then they move on to being owned by a state.

And it's not a model that I'd like.

I wouldn't like it with my football club.

And there's been a lot of criticism of Newcastle United

and Newcastle United fans

for turning the blind eye.

And I remember an example saying,

would you sell your absolute soul

if it meant one league cup, Newcastle United fans?

And fans are put into an awkward position.

I always had this idealised image of a fan ownership.

I always thought that Barcelona was the perfect model.

And I went from thinking no sponsor on a shirt

owned by the people and buying into it all.

And then I've probably been to two or three hundred Barcelona games in my life.

Working as a journalist, I'm not a fan of Barcelona.

I can respect the football.

I can interview the players.

And I've completely changed my opinion.

Because unfortunately, I like elements of that ownership.

I like the fact that the socios do own it.

That an unscrupulous owner cannot buy it.

That it is rooted in the people and its community.

But unfortunately, you can still have an unscrupulous club president

who can promise, like a politician,

a load of things that are going to happen.

I'm going to bring these shiny new footballers in if you vote for me.

And football fans, and this is a weakness of football fans.

They buy the like.

They buy the vision.

They vote for the person to come in.

And that president might come in and he might deliver.

But that might leave the football club in a worse place than what they were in beforehand.

So I have serious doubts about the social model.

And I love the idea and the romanticism of fan-owned clubs.

But then I've seen some of them where the fans end up squabbling with each other.

That is not a panacea either.

I've seen FC United.

You know, what they've done is incredible.

They built a stadium and they've got a function in football club.

Ask fans of FC United what is success.

I suppose just existing.

Just offering a affordable football at three o'clock on a Saturday.

And not becoming subservient to needing sponsors.

That is probably success for them.

But even within a fan base, you'll be going

not happy with that left-back, with that right-back.

We should be pushing for a promotion here.

You're never ever going to keep all fans happy.

Yeah, and that's a really good way to sort of wrap this up, Matt,

in terms of fan ownership.

And he's just spoken about the socials at Barcelona.

I'm also thinking of the model perhaps 50 plus one.

They have in the Bundesliga.

And where do you lie with that?

Especially the juggernaut.

That is the Premier League.

It's a corporate exercise fundamentally.

Yeah, I think Andy's right.

He's outlined nicely some of the pros and cons of those models.

But 20, 25 years ago, there was quite a lot of people

that were really interested in fan ownership.

You know, high up the pyramid, right?

This idea that the 50 plus one model, the social model,

was the goal.

The all-right thinking fan should want.

And there was a big schema arsenal

around buying shares,

you know, and often come up around Man United or Newcastle or Liverpool.

These big clubs with very kind of organized fan bases.

You know, could we do something?

Could we get this over the line?

And it never happened.

There was an organization actually set up to kind of help that

because it was supposed to direct.

And they made the weather for a time.

Certainly in terms of kind of like the engaged fans,

you know, the kind of fans in culture.

It never happened that it's gone away,

mainly because just the sums involved are just too big.

And no one really is talking about it now.

And in fact, I'd say the kind of realities on the ground have just changed.

So, you know, as we're talking right now,

AFC Wimbledon were probably one of the most famous examples

of a fan-owned club in this country right now

are actually just changing their constitution.

They still want to remain fan-owned

at the moment that the trust there controls

about 85% of the voting shares.

They're going to go to 50.001.

So kind of a version of 50 plus one

because they want to get a big minority investor in

because they're saying we're in league one,

we're losing money, we don't want to take on debt

because we are, you know, regular fans,

we're, you know, run by our trust.

This is hard.

How are we going to do this?

How are we going to get back to where Wimbledon were in the 90s?

How, you know, we can barely really afford

championship football at this rate.

So, I think that's just evidence.

And, you know, another fan-owned club,

Exeter have been through financial difficulties of later as well.

So the sort of kind of, a lot of the kind of noise,

the kind of vibe around fan-owned

ship has definitely dissipated.

I still think there's a place for it further down the pyramid.

And I still think there's a place for fans owning stakes

and having kind of skin in the game.

Actually, you know, not just windadressing in terms of seats on board.

But I just, I, never was a long time,

but I'd be amazed if we had a fan-owned ship in the Premier League.

I'd be astounded.

And, and, you know, my final point on this would be

right now, Basa and Rial are talking about selling stakes.

And, and all the last one, you know, of course, 50 plus one for a very long time.

Was the model?

How's that worked for the Bundesliga in terms of its competitive balance?

Because they have a giant, 50 plus one,

suiting Bayern really, really nicely.

Who's going to take on Bayern?

With their enormous sort of head start,

their kind of guaranteed entry into the Champions League,

you know, the commercial might, you know, they,

they, you know, Aldi and Adidas, isn't it?

They have stakes in there.

And, you know, so everyone else is a distance second.

It would take something like a revolution,

like a bram of itch or golf money to change that.

I'm not advocate, I'm not necessarily advocating that.

I'm just saying the 50 plus one model has cons and drawbacks too.

Yeah, you're, you're spot on.

And I think the dream would be to have more fans active within clubs, Matt.

But I think the reality, as we are talking about competitiveness,

is a, is a grim one that I don't think will ever really surface,

especially in the Premier League.

But let's leave it there, Jeds.

Andy, Matt, appreciate your time,

and also thank you guys for joining us as well.

We'll catch you next time.

You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast.

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