What Makes A Great Cast?

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When you're deciding whether to see a movie,

one of the questions you might ask is pretty simple.

Who's in it?

That's because we all know that one of the things

that separates a good movie from a great movie

or even a good movie from a bad movie is casting.

This year, for the first time,

there's an Oscar being awarded for casting

that got us thinking,

what makes a great cast?

Anyway, how can talent, skill, charisma, chemistry

and everything else an actor brings to the table

make a movie memorable?

I'm Stephen Thompson.

And I'm Linda Holmes.

Today, we're talking about what makes a great cast

on Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR.

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Joining us today are our co-hosts Glen Weldon.

Hello, Glen.

Gotta hope I get it.

How many people does he need?

Oh, Glen.

And Aisha Harris.

Hello, Aisha.

Ready for my close-up, Linda?

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

So as we mentioned up top,

there is finally a casting Oscar this year.

It is about time.

There have been casting Emmys for quite a while.

So the Oscars are playing catch up.

If you haven't seen the list,

the nominated casting directors

are Nina Gold for Hamnet,

Jennifer Venditti for Marty Supreme,

Cassandra Kulakundis for one battle after another,

Gabrielle Dominguez for the Secret Agent

and Francine Maisler for Centers.

And maybe we will touch on some of those,

but what we're really talking about today

is casting in general and what makes a great cast work.

It's a very specific skill finding talent,

not just finding the person who's going to be great,

but finding the person who matches what the director wants.

So Steven, I'm going to start with you.

What do you think of when you think about a great cast?

Well, I think the key to a great cast is balance,

a mix of known quantities and discoveries,

powerful lead performances,

memorable faces on the margins,

and hopefully some discoveries along the way.

I think when we talk about big name stars in movies,

the casting part of the equation,

often for me boils down to whether they're the right big name

for the stars, not just whether they're bankable,

but whether they're bringing exactly the right energy

to go with the film in question.

If it's one of those movies where like everybody is somebody,

are all those famous faces a distraction?

Are they detracting instead of adding?

And ultimately, as I kind of set up front,

I want a sense of discovery.

I want at some point to be like, who is that?

Or even better in a way, a sense of rediscovery.

Like, I haven't seen that person in forever.

You thought of somebody I loved and had forgotten about.

I love it.

I love a comeback and some of my favorite casting

involves kind of bringing back somebody I miss.

And ideally, you want even the bit players

to bring a lot of presence.

And if you look at the films that are nominated

for best casting this year,

that's one thing I think that really jumps out

is you'll just see these faces and be like,

who's that guy?

Who's she?

So for me, it's like anything.

It's a mix of many, many, many different factors,

all of which have to work in concert.

Yeah, that makes sense to me.

That all makes sense to me.

All right, Aisha, how about you?

Great cast.

Where does your mind go?

Well, I mean, I think I echo so much of what Steven said.

And also, you know, if we listen to the show,

you know that sometimes we love a good taxonomy.

And while trying to wrap my head around this,

I did kind of come up with my own sort of categorizations

for the things that I look for and things that apply.

And I think a lot of these overlap in many ways.

But, you know, I think of first like the raw cast,

the ones where you have people

who have no sort of experience whatsoever acting.

And you have to like go off of vibes,

go off of how they work with the material.

You have no pre-existing knowledge of how they might be

in front of a camera.

So I think of something like, of course,

the classic bicycle thieves,

the Vitorio de Sica film,

or Can Jareen from Sean Baker.

And then like, then there are the films

that are more, I think they are good at showcasing a community,

like an insular group of people.

And every single person feels real,

has their own distinct character,

but they mesh well together.

So something like Goodfellas or do the right thing.

And then like the last one I'll point out

before we go deeper is like chemistry.

And when I say chemistry, I mean like these people,

they play well together whether romantically

or there's nothing I hate more than a movie

where you don't believe that these people would actually be friends.

So like when a movie does a really good job

of casting people who seem believable as a group of friends

are best friends.

So I think of something like one of them days,

super bad, Thelma and Louise.

Like those are the things that I really look for

when I'm thinking about great cast.

And yeah, it's all about like,

jelling and believability, I think.

Yeah, that makes sense to me too.

All right, Glenn, I don't know.

I usually jumped in with a taxonomy.

I feel like maybe he preempted you.

What have you got?

Man, I tried.

I really tried because I am me.

I tried to come up with a taxonomy

because for somebody who takes comfort

and objective truths and taxonomies

and an overall lack of squishiness,

I mean casting is squishy.

It's chemistry, it's vibes, right?

I guess what I'm looking for is the feeling

that you can imagine that particular role

being played by anyone else that there's something definitive.

We talk about owning a role.

That's what we're talking about.

Something unique, they make choices

that no other actor would think to make.

Not that they couldn't,

because it's not really about skill set.

I don't really believe that casting

is about like the actor's skill.

I think it's about their fit, you know?

And if they're making those choices,

not in the interest of showiness,

but in the interest of nailing down

the specifics of that character,

hitting notes that other actors wouldn't.

I think about the 1950 film All About Eve,

because I'm a middle-aged, very basic gay man.

That stars Betty Davis and Baxter.

George Sanders, Celeste home Marilyn Monroe.

And it's gonna say it's like a jenga tower.

You pull any piece away, the whole thing collapses,

but that's famously not how Jenga works.

You have failed at Jenga, if that's how I have failed at Jenga.

So it's like a room with like five load bearing walls, right?

And the energy that Ann Baxter gives in that thing

is the Anjaneu is feeding the energy

that Betty Davis is as the actress of a certain age,

and makes her Betty Davis year, right?

And then the specific dynamic between the two of them,

you know, George Sanders, who's like this critic,

who like is the snide.

And if you're me, you grow up wanting to be George Sanders,

wanting to be at us and do it.

He is reacting to that specific dynamic.

I think it's about specificity.

Yeah, I mean, the thing that I love about this,

and I agree with what all of you have already said,

but the thing I love about this is that I find casting

such a fascinating field,

because I don't really understand the skill of it.

And that's actually true with a lot of things.

I have to listen to people talk about how they do it

in order to really understand how it's done.

Do you talked about fits, Glenn?

And I think it's not just fit in the sense

that the person fits the part.

It's also that what the casting director is doing

a lot of the time is funneling people to the director.

So it's a balance like what you,

who you as the casting director think would be great,

but also who does the director want?

And what is the director's vision?

And there are interesting stories that kind of,

of casting directors, they can't like boss around the director,

but they can kind of continue to nudge and nudge

and try to get the person there

in sort of preparation for this conversation,

as well as a conversation that Glenn and I had

on all things considered.

I watched a couple of interviews with casting directors,

one of whom is this woman named Marsha Ross,

who has a YouTube video about what really goes into casting.

Now she's the woman who among other things cast both clueless

and 10 things I hate about you.

Classic.

And she brings in for both of those movies,

these giant binders.

And I have no idea whether casting directors would still

have these giant paper binders or not,

but she has these giant paper binders and she goes through

and she actually lets you sort of spy on notes

that she made at the time, or at least the notes

that the casting people made at the time.

So it'll be like Matt Damon,

they were interested in for Josh in clueless,

but her conversation's about like how they cast

and spying on these little lists.

It was fascinating to me,

because that whole process I think is so interesting

because some of these folks,

and this is why I inevitably bring up my favorite

casting director to know as a fan girl

who is Alison Jones.

Oh gosh, absolutely.

A woman who cast,

we've been talking mostly about film,

but she cast a lot of that kind of universe

of the office in Parks and Rec and the good place.

A bunch of the Paul Feege stuff, spy and the heat

and bridesmaids.

I think spy is a brilliantly cast movie,

but also like a bunch of Judd Appetale stuff,

Freaks and Geeks, which is also Paul Feege, Jason.

One of the most famously well cast TV shows in history.

Absolutely, super bad, knocked up the 40-year-old virgin, right?

Borad, which I didn't know.

And this is my favorite list is kind of these.

She also cast Barbie and Booksmart,

and eighth grade and Lady Bird,

and last year, weapons.

You know, it hasn't been free cast.

That is a really well cast movie.

And so when you look at that,

it's like how influential is somebody like that

who has credits,

and like I didn't even mention work on arrest development,

the curbure enthusiasm,

Fresh Prince of Belair,

like imagine anybody who has significant creative credits

in all of those different things.

That's astonishing to me.

I love thinking about how influential these folks are,

and the fact that they're not super famous

is kind of weird.

Yeah, she's basically at the top of a pyramid scheme of fame,

because you think about how many shows were influenced

by those shows,

how many shows were cast

because those people were on the shows that she cast.

Yeah.

I mean, that's seriously one of the most influential people

in Hollywood.

Yeah, and the relationship between casting directors

and the director,

I mean, it's a relationship,

and you have to have incredible clear communication.

But at the end of the day,

the casting director casts the net,

the director cooks the fish.

And...

Good, good, I like it.

You also have to deal with all the different directors

that you're dealing with, all their different bags of BS,

because some directors are gonna be wanting to be

in on the conversation from the jump,

some kind of parachute in at the end.

I just finished this book about Twin Peaks,

called The Place Both Wonderful and Strange,

and David Lynch's long-time casting director Joanna Ray

said she'd had her eyes on these two actors

for like the teenagers in the show,

James Marshall and Sheryl and Fen,

who played James and Audrey.

She had her eye on these two for years and years and years,

but the first time she called them in,

they were terrible in her words, they were hopeless,

but she kept calling them back because she saw something

in them, a phrase that comes up and casting a bunch

and a bunch, and then finally, they were ready.

And then for Twin Peaks, the return,

which featured a lot of new characters,

which needed a lot of new actors,

Lynch didn't wanna meet any of the actors,

so he wanted her to talk to them on tape,

and they'd look at the tapes.

And she said that when she's casting,

she never really wants to have actors read lines,

which is a buck-wild thing for a casting director to say,

but she said she doesn't trust it

because they're just gonna give me the monologue

they've done at the thousand times.

So what she did for that particular project

was she set them down and she said,

talk to me about something in your life

that's interesting, that's not the industry.

And look, I know a lot of actors have dated some actors

and I know that many of them would be like,

oh, I get to talk about me, I'm on it.

But I also know that there'd be some who would hate that

because they go into acting, not to hide,

but they go into acting to be somebody else.

So the idea that that's what that crucial decision

can be made up, but that's a thing,

different casting directors have different methods,

different directors have different methods.

I mean, I think part of the reason why it's taken so long

for there even to be a category for this

is because like for all of that,

and yes, I think the fish and the cooking,

that's great metaphorical in,

but there's still so much variability

in terms of what happens.

And if you think about all the profiles

of how movies were made and like the 20th anniversary

of like whatever movie and it's like,

we're talking about how often is the casting director

actually ever mentioned?

Like it's often alighted, it's often sort of just like

implied but not explicitly stated.

Like it's almost always like,

well, the director like this person or whatever.

And that's partially by design.

I want to recommend the documentary casting by,

which came out in 2012.

Profiles of a few different casting directors,

but the one that's mainly focused on his marriage

and who cast Midnight Cowboy,

Leith O'Weapon Grease.

But it features an interview with Taylor Hackford

who is very much like directors are the ones

who actually deserve to be called directors.

Like it should not be casting directors

and they don't actually do that.

And it's just like, oh my goodness,

this is what they're up against.

And I think because of both like the variability,

all the different ways that people do get cast,

I don't think it's just casting directors directly.

But that's the case with all movies, right?

It's like every part is variable

and the director, yes, he's there,

the director who are as a director,

but there's all these other moving parts.

Yeah, it's nice that we're finally kind of trying

to drill down on this,

but it still feels very nebulous in a way.

And I think that's a good time to kind of bring up

a couple of the reservations

that I have about having an Oscar for casting,

which I'm totally in favor of,

but my fear is one that it's gonna turn into a proxy

for best picture that people are just gonna check

the box of the movie they like best

or the acting they like best

and not necessarily think about the craft of casting.

But I also wonder about the casting Oscar

as essentially standing in front,

kind of that old Roger Ebert line

about how best actor is like most acting

is like most casting.

Looking at the field of nominated casting this year,

one of those nominated films is Marty Supreme.

And if you look at the cast of Marty Supreme,

it is full of kind of flashy stunt casting.

It's a lot of like, here's Tyler the creator,

here's Pendulate, here's, you know,

here are several basketball players.

Shark Tank Guy.

Here's Kevin O'Leary from Shark Tank.

They found a way to really play against type

and have him play a huge jerk.

And yeah, really stretching his abilities there.

I do think it's a very well cast movie

and it has a lot of kind of interesting faces popping up

all the time, but that is a very flashily cast movie

compared to movies where the casting may be perfect

but so subtle that people don't notice it.

Yeah, well, and I will say that the nominees at least

and that this gives me some comfort, right?

The nominees work chosen by the casting directors branch,

right?

So these nominees work chosen by people who do know

and care what good casting is.

But I mean, I agree with you.

I think there's some possibility that that will happen

that people pick the movie they like the best.

I think sometimes there's a sense of that happens

with certain categories like editing

that like people don't necessarily have,

not because they're not important,

do not misunderstand me,

but because not everybody who votes has a like clear picture

of exactly what that skill is.

And I look at those nominees and they are some of the ones

I thought were cast really well.

Certainly centers I think was.

I think Marty Supremes an interesting case.

You're sort of into what this aftery thing is

about casting or you're not, right?

I really liked Kevin Garnett and Uncut Gems

didn't care that much for Kevin O'Leary in this.

So I'm like, I split my Kevin's a little bit

like offbeat casting.

Like I look at this list of nominees

and I'm like, yeah, this is a pretty respectable set

of nominees.

I love that.

I mean, listen, centers was nominated for everything

it was eligible and I believe I certainly think

it's very much deserving of this.

It's probably what I would vote for.

No, and for a film like centers, it fits, right?

So part of this is also, and this is also the director

who is responsible for like controlling the tone

and controlling the performances,

but Michael B. Jordan gets a chance to do his thing.

Delory Linda gets a chance to do his thing.

But it also, you allow one me Musaka

and Jack O'Connell in smaller parts

to make their own unique impressions.

I would say an Emerald Finals,

while they're in Heights,

Alison Oliver is Isabella.

She comes in with this comic performance

that doesn't quite steal the film, comes close,

but it doesn't quite steal the film.

It's just a different energy.

Everybody understands the assignment.

They bring their own stuff to the table.

They bring different things,

but it feels like all of a piece.

But sometimes there is such a thing as scene stealing, right?

So Andrew Scott as Moriarty in Sherlock

was a revelation, right?

And you were like, oh, Moriarty's great.

Who's this guy?

Right?

Who was Andrew Scott?

And you notice Philip Seymour Hoffman

in the talent of Mr. Ripley.

I noticed Steven Stucker as Johnny in Airplane

because you can't not.

No.

You notice Julianne Moore in Vanya on 42nd Street,

Nicholas Cage in Raising Arizona.

Here's a guy who makes those big choices,

always owns the part.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

And that's, you know, you cast Nicholas Coach

because you want to roll those dice.

Well, one of the examples that I kind of wanted

to bring forth is jumping off of that,

which is one of my taxonomy tears is community.

And for me, one of the movies that does that so great

is Devil in a Blue Dress, the Carl Franklin film

that's the adaptation of Walter Mosley's novel.

And you have Denzel, peak Denzel, Washington.

And then you have all of these other characters.

And you have Jennifer Beals playing this, you know,

this, well, okay, if you haven't seen the movie, see it.

It's been 30 plus years, but like,

it's revealed that she is a woman who is passing

for white, but she's actually biracial.

And to cast Jennifer Beals, who is probably

in her obituary is going to be best known for flash dance.

Let's, let's be real.

But like, she is a black biracial woman.

Just the act of casting her in that

and sort of her being able to access that kind of character

and what that might mean in the 1940s.

And then you have, of course, Don Cheetle as mouse.

And John Cheetle is the, he comes in.

He's not in all that much of the movie.

I rewatched it recently and I forgot like,

oh, he doesn't come in until like very much well into this movie.

He comes in, he does this thing and he leaves.

And he practically steals that movie from Denzel, Washington.

But it's those little things where you have

all these different people and Lisa Nicole Carson

as Coretta, I love her.

All of these different characters who feel so full and realized

and they may not have that much screen time, but they are there.

And when it's all working in concert together,

I think it's just such a lovely thing.

And the casting director on Devil and Blue Dress

who is Victoria Thomas, a black woman

who also did Django and Change.

She's done the last of us, Edward Siser, like,

it's one of those things where you don't necessarily

have a genre, you do everything,

which I think is a little bit different

from other fields in this.

Like, you don't specialize, you can do everything.

You have to do everything.

And it feels like it's a field that is more dependent

on memory than almost any other.

And like, remembering ineffable qualities

about somebody you met in passing

in a formal kind of cattle call setting.

And it's like, all three years ago,

I saw somebody who had a soulful quality

that wasn't quite right for the character.

And then all of a sudden,

the whole course of film and TV history changes.

People get discovered that way all the time.

And it really is a remarkable feel

that has such extraordinary, outside impact.

Yeah, and I do want to mention one other thing

which tracks both with some of the conversation

that we've had and with the nominees this year

for the Oscar, which is that this is a trade

in which a lot of the really well-established people

are women.

And, you know, we talked about Alison Jones,

we talked about Marsha Ross.

And there are these two women who were

business partners named Jane Jenkins and Janet Herschenson

who cast most of the Rob Reiner, Ron Howard,

Chris Columbus movies of the 80s and the 90s.

So that's the people who, you know,

that they were involved in the original

at the beginning of the Harry Potter movies,

home alone, a few good men stand by me.

Like, a lot of the giants in this particular field

are women.

I saw kind of a, I think, a very informal estimate

of like 70, 75% something like that.

I don't want to speculate about why

because that gets very gender-essentialist and weird.

But I do think it's interesting

and when you talk about how it's not necessarily

something that is recognized and talked about all the time,

I got to think it's at least, like,

maybe somewhat relevant to a lot of them or women.

Yeah, if there were way more men doing this,

they would have had an award at least 40 years ago.

Let's be real.

Well, we want to know what you think makes a good cast.

Find us at Facebook.com slash PCHH.

That brings us to the end of our show,

Glen Weldon, Aisha Harris, Stephen Thompson.

Thank you so much for being here.

If I were casting a show to do for 16 years,

these are the people I would cast, should you quit?

It's essentially what we did.

Thank you.

Yeah, it is.

Thank you.

Thank you.

This episode was produced by Liz Metzger

and might cast if and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy.

Hello, come in, of course,

provides our theme music.

Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR.

I'm Linda Holmes, and we will see you all next time.

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