What's the path forward for the federal NDP?

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Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is the current podcast.

They faced their worst ever election result a year ago.

The Federal New Democratic Party went from holding 24 seats in the House of Commons to winning just seven.

A number that very recently dwindled further when MP Laurie Idlow crossed the floor to join the Liberals.

The Federal NDP is at a crossroads, one that sees its provincial peers in the West experiencing much more success.

This weekend, new Democrats are choosing their new national path forward,

electing a new party leader at their convention in Winnipeg.

And there are two perceived front runners,

they'll make her an activist, Avi Lewis, an Edmonton MP, Heather McPherson.

Now the NDP has a clear choice.

The same approach that brought us to an historic low in the last election or a new vision that is unmistakably bold and courageous.

I know how to win, I know how to build support, I know how to beat conservatives.

We need the leader who can win, we need the leader who can rebuild, and I am that leader.

Joining me now are two NDP veterans, Libby Davies is a former leader of the Federal NDP,

and she represented her Vancouver writing in the House of Commons for 18 years.

Pat Adkinson is a former provincial NDP cabinet minister,

and she served in the Saskatchewan Legislature for 25 years.

Good morning to both of you.

Good morning, dear.

I should say veterans veterans, huh?

That's a nice commitment to public service that you both have on your records, so thank you for that.

Thank you.

Before we get into the candidates, you're each backing.

Libby, let me begin with you.

How far acclaimed does the federal party have ahead of it?

Oh, it's a steep climb.

You know, we've lost party status before, and I've been in caucuses that were relatively small and then grew back.

So it's a big climb, but I have to tell you, Pierre, I do not have a shadow of a doubt that the NDP will become a major relevant force

in political life in Canada.

We always have been, and I have to say, you know, sometimes the media like to write us off,

but don't write us off.

I think already, even with such a small caucus and no party standing,

Don Davies is the interim leader, has done a fabulous job in Ottawa as have the team.

They punch far above their weight, so I feel very optimistic and very confident going into this convention,

no matter what happens, that the NDP is going to come back.

I think that last federal election was an historic, what should we call it,

blip aberration because of the global political forces around us.

We lost excellent incumbents.

We're going to climb back, and we're going to climb back big.

And Pat, what about you?

How big a challenge is the federal NDP facing right now?

Well, I agree with Libby.

We're down, but we're not out.

And recent polling shows that that we're starting to climb back up.

We've been down before, and we've risen to the occasion.

So there's no doubt in my mind that we will be back.

Come the next election.

It's interesting that you both say, you know, we're down, but not out.

And we have this chance now with a new leader to be elected on Sunday to make that come back.

Polling suggests right now the NDP isn't in as much of the game as it used to be,

but politics, things change as you both know very quickly.

So Libby, let me talk to you about Avi Lewis,

that's who you are backing for party leader.

I know you could probably talk at length about why you think he's the right person at this time,

but give me one or two why you think he's the one to pull the NDP back from the brink.

Well, I think because he does have enormous positive energy,

and that might be an odd thing to say, but you know, being a leader is not only what you stand for.

It's how you approach your job.

It's what kind of leadership skills you have.

And what I've seen with Avi of all the leadership candidates,

and I have huge respect for Heather, by the way,

is that Avi has the best potential to grow into this leadership job in a really big way.

He has energy, he has a boldness of vision.

He has a personality and I think a charisma that draws people.

I mean, just the signups and the number of young people who have come into the campaign

because of his leadership to me is a very, very good sign.

Now, I know the argument against him as well, he's not elected.

Well, you know, neither was Jack Layton.

Jack Layton became leader and was not elected.

If that were the criteria, you know, we would not have had the great Jack Layton as the leader of the NDP.

So to me, the issue is who's got the best qualities to be a leader in addition to what they stand for.

So it's the two things for me, both what Avi represents in terms of a new renewal and direction for the NDP

that is much more activist space.

It's about organizing.

It's about mobilizing versus what I see more sort of the status quo,

which is, you know, for some people, that is very good.

Like the things we've done before that worked and, you know, stick with it.

But I do think we need a new direction.

This is the time to do it.

It's a very historic moment, not only in the country,

but also for the NDP as a political party and movement in this country.

And maybe part of the attraction and part of the criticism of Avi Lewis is that he is on the left side of the left flank.

Some people really are drawn to that.

Others find it very divisive.

We're at a time, I think, arguably that Canadians are maybe more in more of a centrist mood,

if I can put it that way.

How risky is this for someone like Avi Lewis?

Well, I actually don't think it's risky at all here.

I mean, I've always been, you know, considered to be on the left flank of the party.

If we want to use all of these terminologies.

And I think I've always been a member who's been well respected and well supported in the NDP.

And I think what it is, what's really important is if you are authentic about what you're doing.

You know, if people believe that what you're doing is possible.

And I would say that actually the appetite in Canada is that people do want to see a boldness in the political environment.

They do want to see solutions, whether it's around housing or the environment or our global standing.

I think they've fed up with the same old.

And yeah, Mr. Carnegie got elected, but he's clearly shown he's moving far over into conservative territory.

And I think people who traditionally vote you, Democrats and people who are interested in a different kind of vision

will be very, very attracted to Avi Lewis and what he represents.

And we've seen that even in the United States, you know, as things swing to the right.

There's also a burgeoning of a political movement that's much more radical, that's much more activist based.

We see that in the US.

We see it even in Europe.

And I think that's going to happen in Canada too.

So we're not grasping at straws here.

I think there's something pretty solid going on, particularly for younger people who can often feel so cynical about the political process, who often get written off.

And I think that, you know, that's partly the future of our party.

It's to attract a younger generation of people who are going to say, yeah, we can do this.

You know, we can take this on and change the vision for Canada and do something that's meaningful for people.

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Pat Eckenson, I'll get to who you're backing in just a second.

But let's stay with Avi Lewis because he has been criticized particularly by new Democrats on the Prairies,

where you spent many, many years representing in the Saskatchewan Legislature.

He's been criticized for his activism around what's called the Leap Manifesto,

which was this road map presented a decade ago that called for a complete transition away from fossil fuels and a push towards renewables.

Why's that been such a lightning rod for party members out west?

And what do you think about Avi Lewis and sort of his, I'll put this in quotes, but divisive nature?

Well, you know, first of all, Avi and Heather are both new Democrats,

and new Democrats have this amazing capacity to disagree with each other.

And in this case, Prairie New Democrats and also new Democrats in British Columbia

had some difficulty with the way that Leap hit the convention on the heels of Rachel Notley's election.

And the reality is for Prairie New Democrats is that we basically are resource-based economies.

We can't stop what's an important source of revenue in the cases of Saskatchewan.

We have a small population relative to the rest of Canada.

And those resource revenues are important when it comes to funding health and education.

And in the cases of Saskatchewan at the moment, we are not getting the resource royalties that we should be getting

in our education system and our health system needs a major infusion of capital and of money.

So I guess for new Democrats on the Prairies, we want someone who can understand that we vary across the country.

Different issues and someone who can speak to provincial sections and understand and listen to what they have to say.

And I think it's fair to say that we felt that Avi and his team around the Leap manifesto weren't listening carefully to what Prairie New Democrats were saying.

So that's someone for you, Pat, is Heather McPherson.

And I asked Libby this question about, give me a couple of reasons about why she backs Avi.

Lewis will let me ask you, give me a couple of reasons why you're in the camp of Heather McPherson.

Well, Heather McPherson was born in Alberta.

She's a Prairie New Democrat, but she also has international experience.

And for me, she knows what it's like to be a representative of an NDP government in that she lived in Alberta at the time that the Nazi government was in place.

For myself, I was in Saskatchewan when the Romano-Calvert governments were in place.

And I understand, you know, that while we don't always do what some of our activists want, we do as much as we can, given the financial circumstances and given where the public's at.

And I think we are interested in winning elections.

We want to win elections in order to serve people and benefit people.

And for me, Heather has been elected.

And while some will say, well, Jack hadn't been elected as an MP, that's true.

But he had served on City Council.

So I knew how to communicate with people who might have had different opinions.

He had some electability.

So for me, Heather is elected.

She knows how to interact with people with varying opinions.

She comes from the Prairies.

She knows what it's like to have a provincial government.

And she also has some international experience.

And that's important for me.

Heather McPherson is, as Pat says, has been elected.

She's also being portrayed by some in the party as the establishment candidate.

Why do you think that's not what's needed right now?

Well, I mean, look where we are.

I mean, you began the interview with, you know, where is the NDP out?

We've been arguing both Pat and I that we're not.

You know, I think we have to move from the status quo and we need a very bold change.

And if I could just quickly come back to the lead resolution because so much is being made of this.

And I think it's like a decade ago.

But let's put the record straight.

The lead resolution was an endorseation by the membership of the party.

A very strong vote in principle.

You know what the actual resolution was to send it back to the local writing associations for discussion.

Wow.

I mean, that's so radical, right?

Okay.

So it's, you know, I think much is being made of this resolution.

I was very much a part of it.

I was there.

I know exactly what happened on the floor.

It was resoundingly approved by the membership.

Pat that convention.

There was spirited debate.

And I agree with Pat.

We love to have our debates within the NDP.

But I think Heather, I mean, there are two camps.

I think one is more the status quo that is represented by Heather.

She's a good MP.

I think she's done very good work.

But there's another camp, which is represented by Abby, which is, I think, a much bolder activist direction that is about mobilizing and organizing people.

And I think his policies show that.

His style shows that.

I think he's actually a very collaborative person.

I've seen him do that.

So the idea that he is divisive.

I think that's also a bit of a misnomer.

I think this guy at the end of the day is very pragmatic.

You know, you either got it or you don't.

Politics is in his blood.

He grew up with this.

You know, Stephen Lewis, his father, David Lewis, his grandfather.

He is a political animal.

When he gets into the House of Commons, I'm going to tell you he's going to blow him away.

He has no plans to do that.

Should he win?

He said he's not that's not on the agenda.

But he will.

I mean, he will get into the House of Commons.

Eventually, probably in a general election, he's going to go out and build the party.

He's going to do exactly what Jack did in that way.

So I again, I feel at this moment, you know,

it's a very unique moment in the NDP's history of where we are,

both within the context of Canada and globally.

And I think people are hungry for a change not only within our party,

but also within Canada.

You know, they've watched Mr. Carney now for since he's been elected.

He is moving to the right.

He is Mr. Banker.

He does give some stability and confidence,

but I think people will want an alternative.

And that's got to be the NDP.

It always has been.

And it's got to grow.

And I think Abby's the guy to do that, really.

Let me ask you both this.

No matter who leads your party into the next federal election,

whenever that might come, the challenge,

and we see this with the conservatives as well,

is creating that big tent that can attract all kinds of people,

all kinds of voters from all regions, age groups, backgrounds,

whether that being, you know, blue collar or white collar.

And so, Pat, let me start with you on this.

When can the NDP widen itself to be a party that can attract all kinds of voters to it?

Well, I think we can.

We've proven it provincially.

We've been, and territory, we've been elected in the UConn British Columbia,

Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and Nova Scotia.

So, New Democrats know how to win,

and they know how to create the big tent.

Now we have to do that federally.

And I think it's fair to say that Jack certainly did that

when he was leader of the party.

So, I think it's possible,

whoever becomes the next leader,

they're going to have to hit the road

and go from one end of the country to the next.

And they're also going to have to be relatable to those who are working people,

particularly in southern Ontario.

And if you look at the results of the last election,

basically five out of the seven came from west to the Ontario border.

So, we need, you know, people that are relatable as our leader,

and we need people who are relatable as our candidates.

And the party's got to work hard

when it comes to policy that people can relate to

in the next federal election.

And that's going to take a lot of work.

Well, Abby Lewis has talked about the big tent on the left.

And, you know, yeah, even these terms of left and so on.

And at the end of the day, I think what you stand for

and what you put out there in terms of your public policy positions

is what really counts.

And I think the public policies that the platform that Abby is advocating for

in terms of a new green deal for housing,

for public grocery option, for expanded health care.

I mean, these are all issues that I think Canadians are very, very worried about, right?

Because they see their paycheck shrinking.

They see their need of affordable housing diminishing.

And so I think there's actually enormous room and capacity politically

for the NDP to be a big player on the national stage with the right leader

who can fire people up.

And I mean, literally fire people up that something different is possible.

And so that's why leadership counts, right?

It's how you communicate, how you work with people,

how you work with those provincial governments.

I agree with Pat.

That's a very important aspect of a federal leader of the NDP.

And every federal leader of the NDP has had to navigate that

with our provincial governments that are NDP.

And again, I believe that Abby has the skill and the know how to do that.

But at the end of the day, yes, we want to appeal to a broad section of people.

The NDP has historically been about working people, about the labor movement.

And people who often feel left behind.

And I think we can create that kind of big tent that empowers people

to believe that they have a political future and that they have a future in this country

where they can live a good quality of life without ruining and destroying our planet.

I mean, at the end of the day, that's what it's about.

What do you want your kids to inherit?

We will see what happens come Sunday.

Pat Atkinson, Libby Davies, thank you both for your time.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Those were former NDP MP Libby Davies and former Saskatchewan Cabinet Minister Pat Atkinson.

You've been listening to the current podcast.

My name is Matt Galloway.

Thanks for listening.

I'll talk to you soon.

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