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Hey there and welcome back to the Naked Marriage Podcast.

We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we uncover God's design for lifelong love.

And you guys were continuing in our series called What Is A Naked Marriage.

And today, we have a really good subject that we're going to talk about.

Yeah, I'm excited about this one.

And stick around to the end, even though during the body of this episode,

we're going to talk about family dynamics, in-law relationships, parenting,

how all that affects your marriage and how your marriage affects all of that.

But the question at the end today, which is not about family dynamics,

it's actually about fetishes in the bedroom,

and I think it's going to lead to a really important conversation as well.

So stick around to the end for that little bonus.

We're going to have a lot of fun today. We're glad you're here. Let's dive in.

Well, I think this is a really important discussion that we're going to be having

about what the Naked Marriage entails.

And that is, what are family dynamics supposed to look like

within the context of having a Naked Marriage?

And you're probably thinking, like, family dynamics.

I mean, I thought it was just, you know, the husband and wife,

but, you know, we don't exist in a vacuum.

We each come from families.

And with that, whenever you come into marriage,

there's that old adage that you're marrying into the family, right?

And so we want to talk about what are family dynamics supposed to look like

if you're trying to live out this thing called the Naked Marriage?

And we know that we talked about communicating and prioritizing time with each other

and really, you know, making your marriage a connection point

is something really special for the two of you and that safe place,

that soft place to land.

So how does family play into this? What would you say?

But where would you like to start with this conversation?

There's so many places you could start, really.

Because, like you said, you're not in a vacuum.

Your marriage, the strength of your marriage,

or the lack of strength in your marriage,

is going to have an effect on the generations ahead of you and below you.

And your siblings and in-laws and all that too.

So it's an impact how you deal with your parents and your mother and father-in-law,

your children, your future sons and daughters-in-law.

I mean, it's all interconnected.

And so you're trying to create a culture, a family culture through your marriage

that's one that is inviting a one that has healthy boundaries in place

for everybody involved.

And one that's consistent, one that values marriage,

one that values helping everybody else in the,

in the family, have a good marriage.

You know, one of the biggest challenges I ever got thinking about

long-term for our family is we were in, I think, Colorado.

We were staying in a hotel.

I got up early, I went to the hotel gym,

and it was like just a few machines.

It was like two elliptical machines that I got on one.

After about five minutes, this other guy comes in,

and he gets on the other one.

And at first, I was really annoyed.

Because you wanted your private.

Right, just an experience.

It's early, like, I don't want to be next to somebody.

It was a tight space, and I'm already sweating and uncomfortable.

I don't want another person.

Could you smell his mask?

There.

Yeah, he smelled pretty good.

You know, but anyway, we kind of got talking

because we were awkwardly close to each other.

And there was nothing else that we could really do.

And I think it was God's confidence that we were next to each other

because this guy was older than me.

And he asked, you know, kind of the obligatory, like,

well, what do you do?

What are you doing?

He's a dentist.

And I said, well, my wife and I do marriage ministry.

And like that really intrigued me.

He talked about his marriage.

They've been married for like 40 years.

But this is the part that really challenged me.

He said they had like four or five kids

that are grown and all married.

He said, yeah, my wife and I, this last year,

we did something that we just really felt compelled

to like, hey, you know what?

Part of our whatever legacy we want to have

is we want to pass on like a strong marriage.

So they, at their own house,

organized and hosted a marriage retreat

for all their kids.

Like they paid for the childcare.

For like, don't bring the grandkids.

We love the grandkids.

Well, I have them another time.

But leave them.

This isn't like a family.

This is like for marriage.

And they had like, I forget the structure.

Like if they had somebody they're teaching

or whether they're going through.

But it was a very well thought out time

for each couple to have, you know,

private time, alone time, enrichment time.

And they were blessing them and feeding them well.

And it's just for your marriage.

And I just thought the intentionality of that,

the investment in that to think, you know,

of all the things we could spend our time and money on

to let's leave a legacy that is valuing

and celebrating marriage.

I think that's something I want our kids to remember.

And our kids aren't married yet.

But as they get older,

I'd love to do things like that with them and for them.

And so I'm so thankful that I ended up

in a crowded hotel gym that morning

because that really stuck with me.

And I just filed that away.

It's like, you know, as our kids get older,

I want to do those kinds of things.

And hopefully them just seeing that we love marriage

and value marriage.

Sure.

Well, in itself, be something that they want to learn from.

But I want to invest in theirs.

It's like your marriage doesn't have to look exactly like ours.

You know, you be the healthiest version that you can be.

And we want to cheer you on, support that,

and resource that, provide space for that,

babysit so you can go do those things.

And I'm looking forward to those days.

Me too, because it is something where sometimes

we need to think outside of the box.

We don't have to just go with whatever culture says

or with whatever, you know,

our families of origin did.

We can create a new legacy.

And that is definitely outside of the box.

What that guy's doing to do that within just their family

and to invest into the marriages within their family.

I just love that.

I think that, I mean, what a wonderful gift to give.

A great way to spend your time and your money.

And yeah, definitely a good thing to fall back.

Yeah, for sure.

I'm glad that guy was next to you.

But what about right now?

What about the people that have young kids at home?

Mm-hmm.

Maybe they're trying to figure out how to get on the same page

with parenting.

They're trying to protect their marriage in that.

They're also dealing with maybe stressful and law dynamics,

which in full transparency we did.

We wrote a book here with XO called Married Into The Family

that has a lot of that story in it.

What do you do to protect your marriage?

And at the same time try to build healthy in-law relationships

and parent relationships and family culture dynamic.

When you're not in total control of that

because there are a lot of other people involved.

There are.

And you know, if you guys haven't listened to our podcast episode

with Jimmy Evans that we had fairly recently,

go back and listen because I love how Jimmy in his book

For Laws of Love, he explains what he calls a law of priority,

which is biblical.

And the law of priority is basically just really looking at the Bible

and how God lays out what our priorities need to be as married people.

And first and foremost, God comes first

and that's our relationship with God individually, right?

Like how we pursue that relationship,

that's reading our Bibles, praying,

and just working on that, that relationship that we have

with the Lord, first and foremost.

But then, and that doesn't necessarily mean church up there.

Okay, and we've talked about that before.

Yeah.

But just our relationship with God,

and even as a couple, like praying together,

like we've talked about.

But then right underneath that, as a married person,

is your spouse takes top priority

as your human relationship on this earth.

And then underneath your spouse is your kids.

Not your kids before your spouse,

but your kids come after your spouse

by God's design because when your marriage relationship

is really strong, your kids benefit from that.

But when you have a really strong relationship

with your kids and you're constantly putting your marriage

on the back burner, your marriage is going to suffer.

And ultimately, your kids end up suffering,

even if you've been giving them all of your time

and your best attention.

And I think that that is where we often get the family dynamics

things wrong is because the culture tells you,

oh, kids come before everything else.

And I think where this is especially tricky

is if you have a blended family.

And that's where I hear this all the time.

People say, I get you, I want to have,

I want to live out the law of priority,

but in a blended family, it can be a little complicated

because you're bringing kids into that marriage.

And so what would you say to that?

Because that is a tough dynamic.

It really is a tough dynamic.

Because there's a lot of different situations

that lead to blended families.

Absolutely.

And so not every dynamic is the same.

But you just think, well, maybe you were a single mom for a time.

It was kind of you and your kids against the world.

You had to have a survival mentality.

You were everything to them.

Mom, dad, everybody.

They're safe place.

And then you get married.

A man comes into the picture.

Maybe he has kids of his own maybe.

And then all of a sudden,

you're now with this guy.

And you feel like, well,

but there's nobody watching over my kids.

Right.

Like I could.

I have to put them first still.

It is more complicated, I would say.

Then if you just get married,

have kids with with the with the person.

All you have are your own children.

Blend of families.

You got to have a unique measure of grace.

And we have here at Exo Marriage,

there are a lot of resources designed specifically to help.

So I just want to as a side note say,

you know, the videos on Exo now,

books, podcasts, episodes, articles,

aim specifically to your dynamic.

We want you to know your scene.

And we want to help help equip you.

But even still, even in that blended family dynamic,

the laws of marriage have to be consistent.

That you have to be able to get to a place where you say,

the marriage is still first.

Well, we'll do anything for our kids.

I mean, you jump in front of a bus for your children.

But the marriage has to be the primary relationship.

Not at the expense of completely neglecting the children.

But the kids need to see that.

Otherwise this, I think one of the reasons why second marriage

is tend to have a lower success rate is because it's more common

that it's a child-focused marriage in that second marriage.

Right.

And the marriage is never the priority.

And no marriage can survive when it's not the priority.

It's so true.

So my heart goes out to that dynamic because I know it's hard.

And here's the deal though,

is you still can have a thriving marriage, okay?

We're just trying to say it might be a little trickier

because there's multiple parties involved here.

There's children, like you said.

I mean, and it could be that one spouse passed away.

And then this, you know, one spouse is raising the kids by themselves

and then gets remarried.

And so there's all kinds of different dynamics.

So have lots of grace and patience with each other.

But try to get to a point where it's still got first

and then your spouse and then your kids.

Because that brings such security to your kids.

There is such security that they get from just seeing two parents

that love each other and that are committed to each other

and would do anything for each other, even in blended families.

I mean, there is such a beautiful security

that can happen with that.

And so work towards that.

And so how do you work towards that?

You prioritize your time, okay?

Like we said before, Dave often says,

time is the currency of relationships.

And so you have to look at your calendar first and foremost

and see where are you prioritizing your marriage.

You know, we often do this with couples.

We'll say like, hey, look at your calendar.

Where do you show your marriage as a priority?

Like in your day to day, in your week to week, in your month to month.

And I know this can sometimes be stepping on some toes

but it's a very easy way to see where you're prioritizing each other.

And if you are or if you are not,

you can also look at your bank account and say,

where are you spending your money?

You know, because that shows where our treasure is

where we spend our time and our money, right?

And so just really take a long hard look at that.

And if you don't find that you are spending any time together

and prioritizing time together,

then start doing that.

Start with looking at your day.

How do you end your day?

How do you start your day?

Make sure that you're making time to send each other off well

and greet each other at the end of the day well.

And then make sure even in the midst of having young children

that maybe you put them to bed earlier than they would like

or earlier than most kids their age,

it doesn't matter.

You do you and your family.

Put them to bed, have that time together

because that is a lifeline to your marriage

to just pick a breath at the end of the day.

Remember why God called you together in the first place.

And really just make sure you're making time

for communicating and connection.

That's so important.

But then look at your week.

And if you can't have a date night every week

or a day date every week,

it doesn't have to just happen at night.

But make sure that either every week

or every other week or maybe once a month

you're having a prioritized date night.

Like you set time aside for that date night.

You book a sitter ahead of time.

You swap families, meaning like maybe

you watch your friends' kids one week

and you watch their kids the other week.

This can look a lot of different ways.

Look up your YMCA.

See if they have a parents' night out.

Look up gymnastics places in your community.

They usually have a parents' night out.

These are all people that have been cleared

with background checks.

Churches sometimes put on parents' night out.

I'm telling you, when we were in the season

of raising young children,

I would get those family magazines

that used to be in paper form,

but now we're online.

There's apps.

And I would go through and highlight

where we were going to have our date nights.

Because we had a little budget.

It wasn't much, but we would make sure

that we made time.

We were going to make this happen.

And then protect it.

Don't let it be the first thing

that's thrown off the calendar.

Make sure it's the one thing you don't change.

But I think that we have to make sure

that we have a family dynamic

where the marriage takes priority.

Now, this doesn't mean that you don't make time for your kids.

Have lots of family time.

Have times where you're all together.

You know, have little singular dates

with your children.

If you have multiple kids,

that's one of my favorite things that we do.

And it's just so fun to get to spend that one-on-one time with them.

You know, definitely make time as a family.

Have family meals together regularly.

If you can't do it every night of the week,

aim for three or four nights a week.

You know, make sure you go to church.

Make sure you have these rhythms in your life

where you're prioritizing your marriage,

and you're prioritizing your family and your children.

But I think it's just important in all of this that I'm saying

that you realize that you get to choose.

Okay, we are adults.

We get to choose.

There are some things that we have to do.

We have to go to work.

You know, we've got to make sure we put food on the table.

And there's different, you know, meetings we have to go to

with our kids' school and various things that we need to do.

But there's some things that we think we have to do in quotation marks

that we really don't have to do.

And sometimes what I've seen in our own lives

that we've done in certain seasons,

and also with couples that we work with,

is we can use these good things that we feel like we have to do

as distractions to really working on the marriage.

Because we like doing those things and we don't want to say no to it

in order to say yes to our marriage.

But the truth is maybe what we need to do in this season is say no

to this good thing and say, hey, maybe in this season we don't do this thing

so we can make room for the marriage and get the marriage in a better place

and then get some rhythms in place where we prioritize each other.

And then maybe one day you can incorporate that thing once again.

But we need to make sure that our marriage is a priority

when it comes to setting our schedules and our calendars.

And when you do that, what you'll see is it's actually a blessing for your kids.

Absolutely.

I think sometimes we think, oh no, if the kids aren't first and everything,

if it's not just their activities and then they're going to be neglected

and feel unloved and kids are overworked, kids are stressed out.

You know, kids are doing so much.

Yes, there's a thing called rushed child syndrome.

They literally have a name for this, rushed child syndrome

where we just have this epidemic of kids being in too many things,

never having a moment just to have reprieve.

And that's why it's actually breeding anxiety.

And I really felt convicted by this because I'm that mom sometimes

where we're always rushing somewhere.

And when I heard this, I mean, we talked about this and it's like,

okay, where are the pockets of reprieve to just be?

Yeah.

You just have Sabbath.

You know, have a Sabbath day.

Have a Sabbath.

Have peace.

God wants to show me that.

You have, yeah, margin.

God wants that.

And not only does God want your kids to benefit from the peace

and the rhythm of rest in a world that pushes chaos,

He also wants your kids to see a thriving example of marriage in the home.

Because nothing gives a child a sense of security,

like seeing mom and dad in love with each other.

Nothing.

I mean, they might get grossed out when you kiss.

They might like roll your eyes when you leave,

even with the babysitter to go on a date night,

but they have security seeing that you two are prioritizing your marriage.

And it's raising them to have a desire for marriage in a world

that's scared of marriage now instead of having a co-dependent relationship

with you that will sabotage their future romantic relationships and marriage.

Because when you put the kids first, it's what it does.

It creates this co-dependent relationship that gives them a set back instead of a leg up

when it comes to, you know, future marriage.

And so one of the best things, when you do it God's way, everybody wins.

It's just the way he designed it.

Absolutely. Now we're going to talk about a really touchy subject

that I think most people have feelings about.

So when I say this word, you're going to think really great thoughts

or you're going to be like, oh,

and I rarely have anybody have a neutral reaction to this.

And that is the subject of in-laws, okay?

Yeah.

I know. I know.

If you're listening to this drive-in,

you literally, some of you had a smile on your face

and some of you let out a groan.

Like, some of you were like, tell me about it.

And, you know, it's because it can be tricky, okay?

Navigating all these family dynamics.

Yeah.

Because it's very, very complicated.

Very complicated.

And this is part of our story, okay?

We walked through it.

And honestly, what it encourages me is when you read the Bible,

all the family stories in the Bible,

like every single family in the Bible had all kinds of

dysfunction.

Oh, yeah.

Like, so it's encouraging, I guess, in a weird way,

to be like, well, every family had struggles.

In fact, there's a funny,

I'm not recommending you watch The Simpsons,

but there's a famous clip from it where Homer Simpson reads the Bible,

and at the end of it is take away from reading the whole Bible.

He's holding the Bible.

He says, he goes,

everybody in this whole book is really messed up,

except for this one guy.

Talking about Jesus.

And I'm like, that's actually pretty good theology,

that we're all pretty messed up, except for this one guy.

Because we need Jesus.

Yeah, he's the only one who's perfect.

And the more of him we invite into our families,

the more peace we're going to have.

But every family is imperfect, broken people.

Yes.

And when you remember that, it helps me to have more grace

for people who think differently than me,

have quirks that are different than my own traditions

that are different than my own.

And when people marry into your family,

you have to have that same grace.

In your mind, be thinking,

this isn't who I would have picked for my kid.

But instead, you have to say,

you have to welcome them with open arms.

This is a person as a gift.

I'm going to love them unconditionally,

the same as I do with my own child.

I want to make coming into our family a joy for them.

I want them to feel acceptance and love.

I want to treat them that way,

even if I'm not always treated that way in return

because of whatever brokenness they might have.

Sure. Yeah.

And it's so hard because, you know,

as you marry into family or people are marrying into your family,

they do bring their brokenness.

They do.

And we have our own.

Right. Right.

And sometimes, sweetie,

it stems from just different expectations,

different pictures that we don't even realize we have

of how it's supposed to look,

how holidays are supposed to look,

how, you know, extended family vacations

are supposed to look or even occur.

You know, I mean, you may have, you know, one family

where they're like, oh, the day doesn't matter.

You know, we just want to be together when it comes to holidays.

We don't care what day it is and where another family is like,

no, if it's not on Christmas day,

then you don't love us, you know?

And so there's a lot of confusion that can happen.

But what it really boils down to,

like if you are the married couple

who has maybe some tricky family dynamics

when it comes to in-laws or maybe your family of origin,

the greatest thing you can do is to make sure that you two,

as has been and why, for on the same page.

And one of the greatest things you can do too

is you come up with ground rules on how you,

as a unified married couple,

want to show up to your families.

And I will tell you this.

So like one of our ground rules,

as we navigated a very, very tough season

with tough family dynamics and in-laws situations,

is, and we didn't do this on our own.

I think I shared in a previous episode

that we went and saw a counselor

and that helped tremendously,

because we felt way like this was beyond anything.

Oh, we were so out of our league.

We didn't know what to do.

It was devastating.

It was.

Yeah, we can't oversell how hard this was.

For a long period of time.

That was a great change.

And, you know, in fact,

even fairly recently,

there was kind of a revisiting of some of that.

Is some of those things were brought back up.

And, you know, it was.

It was hard.

It was just hard.

It was just hard.

But like back in the early years,

and this went on for, I would say like,

a good five years back and forth,

and you know, kind of some ups and downs through that,

and the early years of our marriage,

where it was, I mean, really,

a lot of heat, a lot of misunderstanding.

We did see a counselor.

He helped us navigate kind of these complicated situations.

He recommended the book Boundaries

that's been around forever by doctors,

Townsend and Cloud.

It's great.

It's got all kinds of great tips in there

on how to establish boundaries.

But he was like, you know, encouraging us.

Before you establish boundaries,

talk about ground rules.

Like ground rules that the both of you,

as you show up to your families,

that you're going to have each other's back.

And what would that look like?

And I know for us,

one of our ground rules was that we wouldn't allow

our families to talk badly about our spouse,

whether the spouse was in the room,

or if it was behind their back,

because that was just not going to happen.

That wasn't okay on our watch.

And so there were situations where I had a family member

who wasn't getting their way,

and would really, who was used to having a lot of control,

would really pitch a fit,

and I'm talking, use every tactic they possibly could,

and it just, it wrecked me at first.

But after going to the counselor,

and having a lot of prayer,

talking to Dave a lot,

and establishing these ground rules,

I realized that in order to, you know,

adhere to the ground rules and establish a boundary,

that I had to stand up to this person.

And I remember one conversation in particular,

when they were wanting to just talk badly about Dave,

because they weren't getting their way.

And I said, listen, I love you.

But I don't think it's right that you're talking

about my spouse behind his back.

And if you continue to do so,

I am going to have to get off this phone.

I don't want to do that.

I want to continue to talk to you in a calm way

and a productive way.

But if you continue calling him names

and saying bad things,

I'm going to have to hang up.

And this person kept doing it.

And I repeated myself again.

This person kept doing it.

And I said, well, I've told you this.

I love you, but I'm going to have to hang up the phone.

And I hung up the phone on this person.

And you guys, like, I remember that day hanging up the phone

and just crying, like, just bawling,

because it felt so against everything I'd been taught

on how you respect your family members

and what honor looks like.

And I felt really sad.

And what I realized is, I'm a married woman now.

And honor looks different when it comes to your parents

and family members once you're married.

Then it does before you're married.

And I knew that I ultimately, first and foremost,

needed to honor my husband.

And it didn't mean that I would bring dishonor

on my family per se.

But I couldn't allow my family to talk about him that way.

I couldn't stand there and do that,

because that would be dishonoring him.

And, you know, David and I talked about this,

talked to the counselor about this.

And he was reassuring me, like, listen,

you said it kindly.

You didn't call names back.

You weren't mean about it.

You got to hold that boundary.

And if this person really loves you,

they will come back to you.

There was a time where this person didn't speak to me

for a while.

I want to say it was probably five weeks at that time.

And it was horrible.

It was absolutely horrible.

But I kept praying.

I kept being available if they wanted to talk,

kind of through other family members.

And eventually, this person came back around

and started showing up a little differently themselves.

It wasn't perfect.

But they started respecting that boundary

and didn't push me on it, like they had previously.

So things can turn around.

But like Dave alluded to, gosh, decades later,

we were having a conversation and some things came up.

And Dave said a statement that was true about the past

and just how hard it was.

And this person, again, just kind of went back up against it,

didn't like the fact that he spoke that truth and love

and didn't talk to me for three weeks.

And it was gut-wrenching.

And I was like, Lord, how do we find ourselves here again?

I mean, we've been married almost 25 years.

Like, I just can't believe this.

But it just kind of reminded us of just how delicate these dynamics are.

But I will tell you, we have since, you know, we've made amends.

And it's okay, God's still at work.

But the reason I'm sharing this with you guys

is just to show you that no family is perfect.

We all go through stuff.

And here we are still 25 years later,

dealing with some of that.

And I realize how emotional it is

because we love our families as we should.

And we love our spouse as we should.

But sometimes we can feel caught in between.

And, you know, unless there's like a situation

where your spouse is being abusive

and your family is like calling out that abuse,

that's an entirely different situation, right?

Because they're trying to bring you to a place of safety.

But if it is just a situation where they're just being critical of your spouse

because it's a power grab,

that's one where, in how God created that law of priority,

our spouse is our priority.

And we have to set that boundary.

And that's what you have to remember

to have peaceful family dynamics.

Yes.

If you disregard God's laws to appease strong personalities

or whatever, whatever your reason,

then it's going to create chaos.

It might temporarily make you feel like

you've got this artificial harmony,

but it always will create chaos in the end.

And you've got to stick to God's laws.

And anybody that doesn't respect that, you know,

you love them and you respect them,

but you have to put boundaries up

that you do not let people cross

when it comes to the sacredness of your marriage.

And if you'll do that, in the long run,

it will create more peace and stronger relationships,

not only in your marriage, but throughout your family.

Well, friends, we're going to pivot

to our question of the day.

And as always, we like to end episodes

with answering one of your questions.

You can submit a question to us

that might end up here on air.

You can do that by writing us on Instagram

at Dave and Ashley Willis

or by going to nakedmarriagepodcast.com.

Today's question is sexual in nature.

Before I read it, I want to let you know

that Ashley and I have a free resource

that's specifically designed to help couples

talk about sex.

And so it's a free e-book.

You can find it on our personal website,

Dave and Ashley.com, right on the homepage,

called Nine Days to Great Sex.

And really it's designed to help you guys communicate about...

Things like this.

Yeah, and all things related to sex.

So here is today's question.

It says, my husband has a fetish

and only wants to make love to me

if I'm wearing certain items.

It makes me uncomfortable,

and it bothers me that he doesn't seem interested in me

apart from this fetish.

I want to give him what he wants,

but I don't want to enable unhealthy behavior.

What should I do?

Yeah, that is really hard.

I mean, on one hand,

I do think, unless a fetish

or a preference for certain things

is harming you or going clearly

against scripture by causing pain,

by coercing your spouse

or by certainly bringing in another person

either digitally, virtually through porn

or, of course, in person,

which is an active infidelity in itself.

I think you have a ton of freedom in the bedroom.

Now, the problem with situations like this

is the guy seems to be so fixated

on this certain preference he has for,

I don't know if it's like articles of clothing

or costumes or whatever it is that he wants to,

yeah, if you're not wearing this wig,

if you're not wearing this thing,

whatever it is, then I'm not interested in you sexually,

which is deeply hurtful for the wife.

So at that point, she just feels like an object

that he's using to live out this fantasy, this fetish,

instead of connecting with her as a spouse,

as a partner, as in the sacredness of sex

that God designed.

And so she's feeling that tension.

And it's a great question of like,

I want to, I mean, she clearly,

she wants to love and connect with her husband

and to do what he likes and all this stuff.

But at the same time,

she's like, is this enabling this unhealthy behavior?

And if so, like, how do I back off that?

Do I just say, make a boundary and say,

I'm not going to do it at all?

Is this fetish?

Like, if you want to make love,

we're going to just do it like,

without all that other stuff.

What would you suggest?

Man, it is, it's layered.

And again, I think that in working with couples,

we get a lot of questions like this.

This is not the first of its kind.

And I think sometimes when a wife receives this kind of message

from her husband, like, listen,

I really like it when you can put on, like you said,

this certain wig or these certain, you know,

pieces of clothing or whatever,

she often wonders like, well, what does this go back to?

Is this some fantasy you have that you saw on porn

or that you experienced before?

Or he wants me to look more like this other person,

which is deeply hurtful.

It's like here.

Exactly.

I have to pretend you're so and so.

I mean, that's...

Right, right.

And then it's like, you know, what is his reaction with that?

Is it like, no, I just think it spices things up.

Yeah.

And I think it's exciting.

And then you have to look at what's her comfort level

with this.

Does this make her feel disconnected?

Because she's doing it reluctantly.

Because, you know, the marriage bed needs to be

the safest place on earth.

You guys have heard us say that many, many times.

And so these things are very sensitive.

Because if she feels like she's just, you know,

fulfilling some kind of sexual fantasy that her husband has,

and he's separating, you know,

it's like she's having to become another person almost

in this sexual scenario.

That's not really what making love is all about.

Because it's really about the two of them coming together

and bearing all and knowing each other, right?

Like, that's really what it's about.

And if these items are coming in between that

and infringing on that, then they're not doing

what making love is all about in marriage.

And so I think it's definitely an exercise in,

in kind of where they are and how they feel about this.

Because she's saying I don't want to enable unhealthy behavior.

And I think kind of reading in between the lines of this,

it's, is this sinful is kind of what she's asking.

And to answer that question, just wearing, you know,

a husband wanting his wife to wear sexy items in and of

itself is not sinful.

I mean, or her wearing them is not sinful, right?

Like you said, God gives us a lot of leeway when it comes to that.

But coercion is sinful by manipulation is sinful.

Objectification is sinful.

And so where's the line?

And not loving.

Yeah, yeah.

It's not loving.

And so this is messy, it's murky.

It is.

Between the line of having a ton of freedom.

Right.

But I would say if only one of you was into it,

and it's not working.

It's not doing what sex is supposed to do for you.

Right. Yeah.

Especially if it's not, not that you never do that,

just as a way to like serve the other.

But, but if, if sex is lopsided toward always, you know,

one spouse's preference, whatever that looks like,

then that's way out of balance because sex is designed by God

to be mutually pleasurable, that mutual connection.

And if sex becomes like lopsided in terms of,

it's always about one person's pleasure or preference,

then that's really unhealthy.

It is.

And is it more about loving your spouse

or more about fulfilling this fantasy?

Is it more about these items being a huge turn on

or making sure your wife feels comfortable and loved by you?

You know, I mean, it's really having to navigate that conversation.

You know, I really appreciate this question.

I know those kind of questions are not easy to ask.

But I do think they're not alone in navigating these kinds of things.

So this is a great opportunity to talk about it

and not make assumptions.

Again, not make assumptions for why he likes these things

or why she doesn't like these things.

Or, you know, just be open to talking about it.

Like we've said before, our favorite part of doing this podcast

isn't so much about our conversations,

though we do love to talk about these things.

We love knowing that this can lead you guys

to having a greater conversation.

And so I hope this opens up to maybe a much needed conversation for you.

And thank you for this question.

Well, guys, thanks for so much for tuning in.

As always, we love and appreciate you.

And we hope that you'll help spread the word.

Like and subscribe to this podcast.

And then also let others know about it.

Because we continue to grow the naked nation.

We can't wait to see you next episode.

Take care.