When Life Gives You Don Lemon

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Yes.

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A mentalist?

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Trump's also going.

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Welcome to Podsave America.

I am Alex Wagner.

This week I sat down with journalists and newfound target of the Trump administration,

Don Lemon.

To talk about the federal charges, the Department of Justice brought against him after covering

an ice protest at a Minnesota church.

We talked about what those attacks on the free press mean for this political moment.

And how has moved from mainstream journalism at a major network to independent journalism

on his own platform has changed how he does the news.

A move I am also a little bit familiar with.

As always, the best way to support crooked media is by subscribing to friends of the pod,

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episodes of Podsave America.

You should also check out my podcast, Runaway Country.

This week I spoke to Stephanie Vial, whose husband has been detained despite the fact that

he is a docker recipient.

And I also got into it with the Bullworks Jonathan V. Last.

It is a good, good, good episode.

You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you in advance.

So let's get into it.

Here is Don Lemon.

I got to say, I am so excited to talk to Don Lemon.

I just read the name, Don Lemon in the headlines and follow the national news about Don Lemon.

But here we have the man in the flesh, well, not quite in the flesh, but on the internet

flesh.

It's great to see you, man.

It's good to see you as well.

Can I say something?

And unsolicited by Alex Wagner.

I think that you're one of the best reporters in the business and I loved your work on

the circus.

Oh.

I just think that when I don't know if you remember, we did an interview a while back when you

were on the circus and it was just I loved sitting down and talking to you guys.

But I mean, just, you know, I love your work on MS now.

And look, I get you, I see you, I get you because as they say, the networks give it and

the networks take it away and you just keep moving, reinventing yourself.

Can not be hustle and a survivor so can not the hustle.

Thank you, my friend.

That means a lot coming from you, you know, I mean, well, we're going to get to all that,

actually.

I'm thrilled to.

I'm excited to talk about our new, our new tomorrow's, our new reality, so these great

adventures we find ourselves in.

You are involving more court time.

I would say that in mine, but I look forward to the day when I am unjustly charged with

something.

We're going to get to that.

I mean, I will say just big picture, not like in in these, you know, in the normal times,

the full frontal assault on the press, the authoritarianism that is so clearly on display

where our president is, is, you know, effectively trashing the constitution.

He's using the full force of the government against any critics, whether they are in

the media or otherwise, he's trying to arrest people who he doesn't, who don't agree with

him or her stand in his way.

That would be the headline story.

And yet it's not.

I mean, there's so much incoming.

I wonder as you look out on the landscape and you do this awesome reporting out there

in the world, what do you think is the biggest story of right now?

What do you is the most important thing that's happening in all this swirl?

Oh, well, that is a very good question, because I think all of it is, you know, it really

is good.

I think a lot of it's related.

I think the first amendment, the freedom of the press and the war go together, especially

if you look at what's happening at over at the Pentagon, if you look at what's happening

with the Department of Defense, excuse me, Department of War, where they are restricting

reporters, making them sign agreements that they can, you know, we don't do that.

That's one of the reasons that we're in Iran, right, is because they have state-run media

and people don't have freedoms and they shoot protesters and whatever.

And we're doing similar things here.

So I think that altogether, the war and the assault on the press because they don't want

people reporting accuracy and what's really happening with the war.

You hear Pete Hexeth at almost every update that he gives about the war that he says,

and this is how you should be reporting it, and then that has seeped into Donald Trump

saying the very same thing.

You never know that when, you know, if you listen to the fake news, right?

And so I believe his advisors are only giving him the information that makes the war look

positive.

So when he looks at the news, the press, which is supposed to be free and he sees someone

of a more balanced picture of what's actually happening, it doesn't compute with him because

he's like, what is going on?

This is not what my advisors are telling me.

We're doing great.

Look at how much we bond.

So I think those are the two things and I am surprised that it is not one of the leading

stories every day, the assault on the press.

And my arrest is way bigger than me because if they're coming for me, this independent

person, they're coming for you, but they've already neutered the corporate media.

So I think I'm surprised that it's not out there.

I'm not, I'm surprised that it's not a bigger headline because it affects everyone.

The press, whether you're in streaming, whether you're print, whether you're a broadcast

journalist, whether you're magazines, even publishing.

And so if they can tell you what you can write, what you can't write, where you can report,

how you can report it, then what's the purpose of the first amendment freedom of the press?

Then what is it?

And it also just challenges the basic idea of shared reality and facts, right?

I mean, if you no longer have, if you refuse to recognize a truth that's inconvenient,

then what is a truth matter ever?

I mean, it's just, it's just information that's weaponized for personal or partisan gain.

And that's not a world.

I mean, that makes living in a world to say nothing of living in a democracy pretty complicated.

I wonder if, you know, like you mentioned both the direct targeting of you, which is

I totally agree bigger than you.

It's meant to send a chill down the spine of any journalist to like the FCC chair coming

out and threatening to revoke a broadcasting licenses.

If the coverage of the Iran War is not deemed satisfactory by this administration, are

you at all surprised by how far Trump is taking it?

I'm surprised at how far we have allowed him to take it because, you know, the folks

who are on, you know, on the Republican side, the more conservative side, love to talk

about free speech, absolutism, and this is, we're about free speech, and, you know, we

can't cancel everybody, and we want to say the R word, right?

Comedians should be given a wide birth to be able to do whatever they want and be funny

or whatever, and then they get upset when a comedian, you know, makes fun of someone,

you know, in their, you know, that's in their tribe, so to speak.

So I am surprised at how far we are.

Where are the free speech absletes now?

They're not anywhere.

I mean, it was never about free speech, it was, right?

It was.

So I'm surprised at how far he has been able to, how far we have allowed him to be able

to do it.

And look, this is the, if you really believe in the Constitution, Alex, if you really

believe in the Bill of Rights, and you really believe in freedom of speech, if you're a

mature person, you understand the importance of the press.

And whether you agree with them or not, the reason that this country has been able to,

we've been able to get as far as we have with this experiment is in large part because

of the first amendment.

People write things about me all the time that I don't like, and, but I would fight for

their ability and their right to be able to say it.

Like there was a profile of me that came out in the New York Times, overall positive.

Getting in there, did I like it?

I think there were some things that were out of context.

I got something, sure.

But overall, I was like, okay, it's fine.

And that's, it's out there.

Enjoy it.

And I never, I didn't even think twice about it.

For me, it was like, oh, that's great.

I got a big thing in the New York Times or whatever, do I like some of them?

Yeah, I thought it was a, a great thing, actually.

Yeah, I thought it was great.

And I don't like it when they're too effusive.

Like if they're doing a glowing profile, I mean, it doesn't really mean anything.

And I think that they were, that they were critical on some things, that was like, great.

It's good because it makes you think.

So Donald Trump is not a mature person.

He doesn't believe in the First Amendment and in the Constitution because if he did,

then he would not be so critical of the press and he wouldn't try to make us have state-run

media.

Well, it's the, the essential notion of a presidency is you want to be aware of all

sides of a debate, even if you are, you know, don't agree with it.

And like that notion of a team of rivals extends to every part of the democracy, right?

Like, right, right.

We're a two-party democracy.

We're going to be a push and pull is never going to be perfect.

But it's not about annihilating one side and declaring victory.

You've had like just this extraordinary years and it's only, it's only March.

My God.

I thought you were going to say, and it's only going to get worse, but no, I mean, it could.

It probably will for all of us.

But especially you don't know, I'm kidding.

I, let's talk about what happened in Minnesota in January.

You went out there.

I went out there after you.

But it was, I remember thinking like, oh boy, everybody who went out to Minnesota after

seeing what happened to you, every journalist, I think, was way more cautious, way more concerned

about where they were, how they were doing, not because you had done something necessarily

wrong, but because of what the administration did.

So let's, let's talk about your live streaming, a protest inside a church.

And so what were you hoping to cover and sort of how did that all come about?

Well, as you know, this, this is still going on.

So what I will say is, so what I will say is that I went there, there's no conspiracy,

which is what I'm, there's no conspiring, a protestors, a protestor, a journalist is

a journalist.

I didn't like, I didn't even know where the, they were going to go.

I didn't know until, you know, we got there and we're like, oh, this is where we are.

But I went there with the intention to do journalism and that's what I did.

And so, as Steve Schmidt said about what's his name, John Miller, who, you know, now works

for CNN and worked for the NYPD for a long time and worked with, you know, national law

enforcement for a long time, and was a journalist.

And he said, when, when John Miller went into the cave with Osama bin Laden, he did not

become a terrorist.

He was reporting on someone who was a terrorist and that, and, and he also knew that he was

going into a cave and they didn't, I don't, I don't think they had to tell, you know,

authorities or whatever.

But I'm just saying, just because I was in a church with protestors does not make me

a protestor.

And so, and it's just because you don't, you, you may disagree with questioning people.

It doesn't make me less of a journalist that you disagree with my questions.

That's kind of what the whole thing is about.

So I, that was my intention and I wasn't even going to go there.

I just happened to be going to Chicago to host the Martin Luther King day breakfast for

the Reverend Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Push Coalition and I was talking to my husband and

he goes, you know, maybe you should just take a stop and I said, yeah, maybe I should

go there and just go, I was only there for like six hours seven and I didn't even that

long.

Maybe six, maybe seven hours.

It was extended because of flights were late, you know, snowy and all that.

And that was it.

I didn't, I didn't even know the people who were part of the protest.

They had been on my show like a Thursday before and but I had never, I never did know them

personally.

I'd never met them in person.

Very little communication with them besides coming on the show.

Even if you did know them and even if people were offended by your questions, that doesn't

make you any less of a journalist, you know what I mean?

I just, in defense of that, like I know plenty of people that I interview and that still

makes it journalism that does not disqualify it from being journalism.

And I will know in that live stream, you recognize that there are two sides here and at one

point you're like, maybe they could get together and talk and figure this whole thing out.

I mean, it was like the idea that this was somehow that you are inciting some sort of offensive

or wounding engagement that caused suffering and harm on is like, I don't know, I just

is a lay person that watched the journalism that you did.

It all seems quite cocked up and I don't know the degree that you can tell me about this

but we can always cut it out and post if you can't.

Like the case that's being brought against you is like, I mean, ironic is not the right

word to use.

I think it's like designed to be offensive and it is deeply reflective of a department

of justice that likes to use race in a pernicious and damaging way.

They are charging you with a law from 1871 called the Clue Clux Clan Act and that historically

is a law that's been used to protect against white supremacist violence.

Now it's being used against you, a person of color alleging you were part of a conspiracy

to intimidate churchgoers.

As one of the country's most prominent black journalists, do you think that this is a

sort of deliberate play here?

Yeah.

I mean, look at the people who are arrested, they're black journalists, they're deliberate

play, yes, of course it is.

I mean, everything is calculated with this administration and anyone who is writing or

prosecuting this, I feel that they should be embarrassed, especially if they are any sort

of person of color or a woman in minority who's used to being discriminated against.

Did I think about that?

Absolutely.

I thought about that.

That's just the symbolism of it and especially considering the history of this country, one

of the biggest stains on this country is slavery.

And then from slavery, Jim Crow and everything is not, you know, just because something

is black doesn't mean the other is white.

Everything is not equal in this country.

There were people who are part of a culture or a part of an ethnicity in this country

that have not been treated fairly for the longer than this, the majority of the time that

they are we have been in this country.

And so, yeah, I think it's designed that way, yeah, and it is, it is pernicious.

But I also believe that there is a reason that it happened to me is to show, I believe,

the hypocrisy of this and the pernicious nature of it will be illuminated because it's

me.

Yeah.

And so at the end of the day, I do believe that I'll come out on the right side of this.

And when that happens, I think people will, you know, ultimately realize, and I think

there are going to be a lot of people who are embarrassed.

And you know, so I did, I thought about that as I was sitting in a holding cell about

people just because they don't like what you're saying or reporting or who you are, that

they can take your freedom away.

That's huge, huge.

And I do think that the people who are doing it just suffer some consequences.

I think that they, you know, there is a malicious intent in nature of what they're doing.

It's malevolent.

It's malicious, it's evil.

I would take it, take it, take it, and racist.

And it's racist.

Yeah.

I do think it is racist.

Yeah.

I was, I was going to say, I think this is a really, I should have said, this is a really

, it's part of a suite of actions from this administration assisted by the Supreme

Court to, to rent to, to, first of all, whitewash America's racist history and the, the legacy

of slavery by saying that the, what we're, what we're, all of the civil rights protections

that we have in place are effectively reverse racism against white people and to weaponize

the legacy of King, to weaponize things like the Ku Klux Klan Act against people of color

and therefore render the idea of disparity and institutional racism sort of moot, right?

Like everyone's, no one's a racist, everyone's a racist, white people are being discriminated

against and therefore any protections that exist in our society should be done away with

because it's all kind of meaningless.

I mean, I think that's the kind of natural endpoint is to effectively turn back the clock

and get rid of all the gains made on race and in civil rights.

In the last, I'd say a hundred years, like I really think and using you as a kind of example

of like, oh, yeah, see, like this is, we need to protect the country.

White, white church congregants need to be protected from the black menace.

Like don't you talk, don't at us about the clan and like all the black people suffer.

Look what's happening to white people with these black people storming their churches.

Do you know what I mean? I feel like it's a way of making a white people feel better about

the history they have in the United States of America, but also rendering that history,

the real history of America less potent, less, less malignant.

And that's fucked up.

Well, first thing I'll say is, I'll let you say that.

I'll let you say that because I think I think I think it's a very

cogent and articulate argument and logical.

I, I believe not that I'm correcting you.

There's no such, well, there is such a thing as reverse racism.

Reverse racism would be equality.

It's racism. Racism is racism is racism.

No matter if you're doing it against an agent person, a black person, a white person,

or whatever, whatever it is.

So, you know, when people say, well, why people are the victims of a reverse racism,

like really, what does, what does that actually mean?

And if you actually think about it, when, as you're talking about black people in America,

if you say something is reverse, that means that there is racism for the most part,

which is sort of what the definition of what racism is is against black people in America.

And so, I think that they should be keen, you understand what I'm saying?

They should be keenly aware of that.

Yes, it's an acknowledgement.

And Karen, did it, is discrimination against people of color.

But it's a trick.

It's a trick for power and for political expedience.

And so, what they're doing is tricking people into being aggrieved,

that if you are not doing well, let's just say that you live in a coal mining community,

or you live in some community that is suffering.

Rather than realizing that you need to be retrained, you got to do, you know,

these things happen, you know, department stores used to be a big thing.

Now people are buying online.

You know what I'm saying?

Or coal used to be a big thing.

And now it's all about technology.

And unless they start making cell phones out of coal,

then, you know, it's going to diminish.

And so, or, and if you're not doing as well as you think you should,

because, and you see minorities and women who are gaining agency in society,

they have really good jobs, they have positions of power, somehow,

as a white person, especially a white man, that person must be taking something away from you.

Yeah.

And not that you are maybe not qualified for the position.

Maybe you don't have enough, get up and go, as they say.

You're not motivated enough.

You're not ambitious enough.

And maybe it's just that again, you're just not as qualified for the position as the other person.

And so, I, you know, I think that's a trick to make you vote for them.

Donald Trump is very good.

And especially this MAGA, very good at making people feel aggrieved.

And that agreed that, that and, and fear are great motivators.

It makes people sit in front of the television all day and watch Fox News and go,

yeah, that's right.

And go, it's right there discriminating against white people.

And if you ask them, really, if you think that white people are being discriminated against,

ask them, would you change positions?

Would you be a black man in this society?

Would you be a black gay man in this society?

Would you be a woman or a black woman in this society?

Most of them will go, why I all know, because I mean, quite frankly,

white people and white males, I think have it pretty good.

Pretty good.

Yeah, I guess to say a lot of white male Trump supporters,

not that interested in being people of color,

to say nothing of the power grid.

But just, yeah, but that doesn't mean that there aren't poor white Americans

that white Americans aren't struggling.

I'm talking, I'm generalizing overall, right?

Well, I think that's part of it, too, is that it's the zero sum race game.

And all of this, I will just say, is explored so brilliantly by my friend Heather McGee

in her book, The Some of Us, which is like the idea that someone else is doing better,

that means you're doing worse.

And in fact, like in the example she uses is during segregation,

in lieu of having black kids and white kids swim at the swimming pool together,

some communities shut down the pool entirely.

And that's basically what we're doing to our society, rather than saying,

we're better together, there's some for all,

we're like, let's just shut the whole thing down so that we don't have to deal with each other.

Just so happens, and leaned out of the screen for a little bit,

because I wanted to pick this up.

I did this very similar to what you just said.

I wrote about this, and during George Floyd,

and the member of the summer of unrest,

this is the fire, what I say to my friends about racism,

and what I tell, meaning mostly my white friends about racism.

And it debuted at number one in the New York Times,

and it was really great.

Of course it did.

And because, well, I'm not, I just think there was a right time for it,

but there's also explanations in there about what you just said,

and how they are able to co-opt people,

almost in a cult-like way,

to believing that if those people, things would be better if we just stopped talking about racism.

If we just sort of ignored about slavery,

if these people could just pick themselves up by their bootstraps,

have you ever tried to pick yourself up with bootstraps?

And especially if you don't have any boots, how you do it.

Get into some real boots and try to lift yourself up and see if you can do it,

but I'm just, you know, I know it's a term, but it's not a real thing.

And, you know, so I think we need to, like, really sit down and talk about,

and come to an understanding about what this country really is,

which is, I don't think that we are going to do it as long as there is a Trump administration

in place, as long as MAGA and Christian nationalism are a front and center in this country.

Well, yeah, I mean...

Religious nationalism.

Yeah, I would say white Christian nationalism.

White Christian nationalism, right?

I mean, evangelicals.

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It is worth talking about.

Like after you're arrest, the White House tweeted out when life gives you lemons

with a chain emoji.

Like the White House cheering on the arrest of a journalist, a black journalist with

slavery chains.

I mean, did you, first of all, ever, you know, you've been in the crosshairs of this

administration before, right?

Like, you know what it's like to be a journalist at CNN to have a big platform.

But did you, what did that moment mean to you when that tweet went out?

If you, if you really want to, I'm not surprised.

And look, I'm a big boy.

And what I, I just kind of shook my head, Alex, like, you know,

but I only think that that made them look bad.

I think that I do, I do believe.

But I thought that they, that was sort of a test to see how that went over.

And I don't think it played well in the public.

And I think that they, after that, they quickly realized it.

And they, you know, they had, they tried to squash it.

They didn't go as far as they could have with it.

And I do think that they underestimated where the public sentiment would be in this particular

thing, even conservative saying, okay, guys, this is way too far.

Because what happens if they're a democratic administration?

And they start doing this to us.

Then we're in trouble.

So, you know, I looked at it and I was like, okay, whatever.

I'm not surprised.

You know, is it disgusting and racist and inhumane and bigoted in all of the things?

Absolutely.

But I'm not going to, I don't sit there and dwell on it because I have great legal counsel.

And all of the things that they have done will pay off in court.

Can I talk about that?

That's where I intend to fight this.

Yeah.

Because I know that you're lawyers.

And again, if you can't talk about this, just let me know.

But you're, you're lawyers want to see the facts that the government presented to the grand jury

in order to get the indictment.

Because they're saying we don't really trust whatever facts the government gave to the grand jury.

Like they have a history of what is it?

Your lawyers are pointing to what they call a small but growing body of case law,

involving the government engaging in highly unusual conduct.

Simultaneous to political pressure, to bring charges and misstatements of the law at the

highest levels of government.

I mean, they see this persecution effectively and they, they want to see what the government

cases for all of this because they look at what's happening to you.

I know James Comey is another person cited as an example of this government,

of this unhighly unusual government contact.

Latisha James.

Tish James.

I mean, can you talk more about that or how optimistic you are that you're going to get more insight

into the justification the federal government is using to charge you criminally?

Well, I don't know what's going to happen in that ruling because that, and this is all public

knowledge and this has all been in the public legally. So I can talk about it.

So that's what my attorneys filed and they believe that that will be illuminating.

And obviously, if they filed that, they believe that there is something in there that may show

the abnormal, the abnormal tease. Is that right?

The anomalies.

Abnormalities are the, yeah, are the anomalies or whatever in their, you know, prosecution of me.

This went to three, it went to a magistrate judge and usually after the magistrate judge is

like, okay, but that's it. That wouldn't do it. Then they went to someone else and I think

that either three and then they went to someone else. I think it was like three different

tries or two or three different tries and they, everyone said, no, we're not doing this.

And then they took it to a grand jury. And you know, when they say, you can indict a ham sandwich

with a grand jury or whatever. You're talking about the government, run it at various flag polls,

yeah. Run it, yeah, various flag polls until they found something. And I wasn't surprised,

I knew that they would try to do it because they just couldn't be embarrassed. So right now,

I feel that they're just prolonging their embarrassment. So, you know,

we'll see how the judge rolls. And if there's something in there, then I think that's going to be

problematic really for the government. And if there's nothing in there, if the judge or

if it is deemed that there's nothing in there that it wasn't abnormal, then so be it. But still,

I still think that it's at the end of the day, it's going to be, I'm going to, you know, end up

on top. I'm going to end up the winner in this. I think maybe you already have done

in a way. That's, I've heard that. Why do you say that? I just feel like, first of all,

I mean, I know it's been difficult. And I want to kind of talk a little bit about the rest part.

But it is brought to the fore in such a concrete way the way this administration is going after

people, the inherent racism of its maneuvering. It's given you an extraordinary plot. People

are really paying attention to what's happened to you, what's happening to you. And I'm not just

saying that from like a business level. But I just mean, you know, your voice is essential right now.

Your struggle is, I'm not going to say universal, but it's much bigger than you. I mean, and it,

and it's really crystallizes the essence of this administration, which is all of its fissistic

impulses, it's the authoritarianism that is, you know, the order of the day. I mean, in that way,

it has been a victory for people who've had a hard time really pinpointing the malignant nature

of what's happening right now. Although, of course, you're still facing trial. So let's talk a little

bit about what's happened to you. And the sort of, first of all, were you freaked out by the fact

that, you know, you're an independent journalist. And there is some safety, like being part of

someone who used to work at NBC now, MS now. There is some safety, you know, there's like a whole

bunch of lawyers that work for huge safety. They just say, uh, we'll take, the lawyers will take

care of this. And you just say, okay, you show up for whatever it is. And that's exactly. And

you didn't have that, right? Like you do have incredible representation. But were you, were you

scared initially? Um, about before or after, or just like as it's happening, you're like, oh,

they're going to, I mean, like this, this, they charge you while you're in Beverly Hills, I think,

right? And like, you will, you, maybe you knew this was coming because Trump was telegraphing

all of it. But like when it first happens, are you like, Oh, God, like I got it. I'm on my own here.

No, Alex, I am, um, as Dr. King says, I'm not fearing any man. I don't fear that kind of thing.

I am lucky. I'm fortunate enough to have some agency and some and the ability to be able to

fight this. And there are people who cannot, there are people who cannot pick up the phone

and call Abby Lowell and say, well, you represent me. And so I, for those people, that's where, um,

out of this process, I've learned more and, and become appreciative of, um,

the folks who are able to do this like myself. And, and there's a greater understanding of what

people, some people cannot do this because I know it's a very expensive process. It's a very

taxing process. Um, and so people are all the time, even by this government, maybe they don't have

the, the resources to be able to do it. But I'm very fortunate somewhat. It's really, I mean,

that doesn't mean that I, you know, I can afford to go the distance with the government, but we'll see.

Was I angry? Was I scared? No, I wasn't afraid. I was, uh, the only time I was a little bit

startled when they grabbed me in the elevator, because I thought I was being mugged.

This is when they first started. Yeah. When they, when they, when they finally did. Now, before

that, they were saying that they were going to do it. Yeah. Um, and, um, I let you, I'll give you

something that nobody else knows is that before that, there were people who were parked outside of our

home in New York City and would follow us when we got into the car. And I have never said that

to anyone. And I don't know who they were, but usually people don't follow me. A, a, you know,

a group of cars don't follow me when I'm going to eat dinner with my friends or when I call an Uber

or whatever. And so that was a little bit unnerving. And like the, the nerve, like the nerve,

even if you, if you have, if you have not gotten, um, permission from a judge or a court to be able

to detain me, then you shouldn't be able to follow me. You know what I'm saying? You should not

be able to follow me around. So that was a little, uh, you know, innocent until proven guilty.

And then once that happens, okay, let's do it. So it was some, there was, there was frustration in

that, um, and when I said it was a little startling, but there was some frustration in that this

would, this was all so unnecessary. Because the reason I wasn't afraid is because I have people

who are in the business and they're saying they said to me, we're hearing your name a lot, you

know, they're speaking, you know, from folks who are in power. So maybe it's time for you to get a

war room and maybe you should reach out for some representation. And I did that. So I felt like, okay,

if this does happen, then, um, I, you know, I'll be taking care of to the extent that I can be

taking care of. But it was also unnecessary. It was a waste of resources, a waste of tax dollars,

because the first thing my attorney did was send them a letter saying if you were serious about

this, then let us know. Let's get this process started. He will self-report and turn himself in.

Nothing. Instead, whatever 20, 25, whatever people show up. And it's like, why? If you would just call

me and say, I would say, okay, I'm jumping in a taxi. Give me the address. I'm going to come down.

But it's a waste of tax dollars. They did it because they want you to be afraid and because they

want to embarrass you. I was neither embarrassed nor was I afraid. And on the other side, I realized,

once I come out of this, I have a story to tell and I have a platform, whether people are on my

side or not, whether I have public support or not, I'm going to fight this to the end and I'm

doing it in the courtroom and I'm going to stand up to you and I'm not going to be afraid and I'm not

going to stop doing what I do because I'm a citizen of this country and I have a first amendment

right, not only for freedom of speech, but for freedom of the press. And if there's anyone who is

deserving of all the rights and privileges that go along with this,

right, if there's anyone, there's, is someone who whose ancestors came here involuntarily.

Yeah. And who has faced discrimination and racism and whose ancestors or came over and

changed and so I believe it's me. I believe it's people like me. And for those people, that's why

I'm standing up. They're not going to silence me. I'm not going to be afraid. No matter the outcome

of this, no matter, I'm still going to be here still doing my thing.

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Love it or leave it bringing you a stack lineup of guests. That's what makes it

America's number one late night gay live comedy political podcast. We're so excited to be back

and you see it's a tradition now that we come around the time of the car response. Even though

the car response center really no longer has comedians. Probably there's going to be some kind of

magician or a mind-milder. Yes, a magician. I'm a mentalist. A mentalist because I guess Trump wouldn't

know. And Trump's also going. Yeah. Yeah. That's there. Yeah. There's a mental case and then

and Trump is also going. That's how it is. Tickets won't last long. They're so I'm pretty fast.

So get yours now while you still can at Cricket.com slash events. Very excited for the DC show.

Got some big guests. Some pretty exciting babies. Cricket.com slash events.

It was never in question whether Don Lemon was a shrinking violet, right? Like that's never been

your brand, right? But I kind of wonder, you know, you and I have both made the move

from establishment media to independent media, right? Me from MS now, you from CNN,

we won't go into the circumstances of those departures. You're still there though. You still

big guests. Yes. I go and hang out with my buds on set sometimes. But, you know, I am not

where I'm not working that that's not my that's not my home anymore. And CNN isn't your home.

And you have built a new home for yourself and an extraordinary one at that. I wonder, you know,

how that transition has changed your approach to journalism. And like the way, first of all,

let's just say right up front, it is a hustle, right? Like it is full on. We're both working

real hard. You're working harder than I am. But like, do you think that that, you know, being out there,

being, you know, who you are in this new media landscape changed you and made you more tenacious?

And especially in moments like, you know, when the Trump administration's coming after you.

Um, yes, yes. Now I always felt, you know, I've always been tenacious.

Yes. But I also think, and I don't want to, I don't want people to think that I'm criticizing,

I'm not. But I think that it needs to be more people like me. And even if you are afraid,

you need to fight through that fear and stand up for the press, stand up as a journalist. I believe

that the, the folks who are in the White House press court need to stand up more. They need to do

what Richard Angle did with Benjamin Netanyahu the other day when they killed, you know, his mic,

when they muted his mic, they need to continue to ask the question even as Caroline Levitt is

calling on another reporter. Wait a minute. This is your end, right? They need to continue to ask

the question when Donald Trump is being rude. And when Donald Trump calls someone a piggy,

everyone in that press court on the plane should, should say something. Yeah. And if the,

and not, not ask the next question, they would say, my colleague who you call a piggy, which is,

you know, the president of the United States, I'm surprised, sir, that this actually came out of your

mouth. My question is her question. So, uh, I have, so I believe that people should be more tenacious.

I believe that journalists, and I've always believed this. Maybe I'm naive. They're like doctors

and lawyers. Do no harm. And the way to do no harm to the public is to fight for, um, fight to have

them educated, to be informed, and to stand up to power. And that's what we're supposed to do. So,

I think every journalist in this time should be doing that. And even the journalists who are

in corporate media. And I know it's, I know you're worried about, you know, you got to pay for your

kids private school. You got to do all these things. I get it. But I think if more people stood up

to the corporation, to the conglomerates, to, uh, the powers that be to the gatekeepers,

I think we would be in a better place right now. And especially the people, even more so than the

journalists who are sitting at the desks or out in the field who are in war zones, even more so,

the people who, um, are assigning them to these positions, who are putting them on the anchor desks,

who are deciding who gets to be on what program. They should be standing up to the powers that be

as well. Because that's what journalism, we're supposed to do without fear of favor. We're supposed

to do it. Um, we're supposed to hold power to account. Otherwise, then you get a dictatorship or, uh,

and authoritarianism. So, uh, I've been surprised by, and especially my exit from CNN, I was surprised

by how many people lacked the courage to be able to say the right things and do the right thing. And

how many people were just, just wanted to, um, survive. And if you're a journalist, you can't just

want to survive. You have to, you have to want to protect the constitution and you work for the

American people, not for the government and actually really not for the company. You work for the

American people. I feel like it's like your, your essence is in full flower. Like you were destined

for this. Like you're out there. You're like, you're out there. I mean, you're out there. Do you

think of nuts? No, because I know. I mean, what the moment demands. I mean, but the other thing,

the thing that I think people, you know, if you, if you are a lemonhead, you know this. But like,

one of the things that really does set you apart is you're out there talking to people on the streets.

You're like moving around all the time after this and going, which is why do you, first of all,

as someone who loves field reporting, I think it's like the essence of journalism. And we've

completely lost it in mainstream institutional media. Why'd you decide to do that? Why was that

important to you? Because I noticed that there was a disconnect between what I was hearing, you know,

on sort of the mainstream. I hate that term mainstream media. But that, that's what is between what

I was hearing. And I also know when I, when I did what the reason that I became an independent

journalist is because I, you know, I could have done something else or not done anything at all.

But the reason I took the path that I'm taking is because I wanted to be closer to the ground.

I wanted to be out there with people. And during the 2024 election, when I started just going

out doing man on the street interviews, which, you know, I think are really important because

most interviews are man on the street. If you go to breaking news and you're talking to people

that were there for the breaking news, that's man on the street, right? And that's actual, that's

journalism. And when I started talking to people, I, during the 2024 election, I started hearing

a lot of Trump. I like Trump. And from demographics that I didn't expect to hear it from.

And it was eye-opening and illuminating to the response that I got that, well, to hear it,

considering what you're, you know, sometimes what you're here on the news. And then the response

that I was getting from different news organizations, like some of the liberal folks and even and

people who are liberals, why are you doing this? Are you curating these things? I'm like, no, I'm just,

this is just, I'm doing it. And then on the right, come on our show. Oh, or, oh, this wasn't the answer

that Don Lemon wanted. This guy owned him. And I'm like, no, that was the exact answer that I wanted,

whatever their answer is. Yeah. That's the answer that I want. Because I want, and guess what?

If I was embarrassed by dumbass, I wouldn't put it on the internet. I wouldn't put it out on,

you know, on my channel if I was, or on my social media if I was embarrassed by it. And if I had

any sort of fear, I was embarrassed by what people are going to say to me, people who may not like me.

I know that there are people out there who don't like me. I get it every once in a while. Most of the

people out, you know, I like you, whatever. And there are some people like, yeah. But

so I actually go out and I do, I, you know, an IRL in real life, live. I do man on the street,

live. And not everybody is in love with me. And I put that out there too because

that's real. That is real. And that's what being transparent is about. And so really, it's not about

me personally. And I'm not embarrassed by it. Okay, fine. So, you know, that's why I did it. Yeah.

That's why I, and I think that maybe I guess that's why I'm successful. If you see me that way,

I'm too close to it. I don't know what success and what isn't in this whole straining thing.

Well, what I've noticed is, first of all, in the new media landscape,

when you break out on your own, so much of it is actually about your personal resonance with

the audience. And there is a much more intimate relationship between your audience, people watch

you in new media than there is, I think in broadcast. Would you agree with that? Or I don't know.

I mean, do you feel like it's the same? Do I think more people watch me in new media?

Well, do they, do you, I feel like they have a more, it's a closer relationship?

Oh, yeah. I mean, like, I'm sure lemon heads as a concept existed while you were at CNN.

But now it's like a bonafide, like subscription to your people where the Swiss wide

sure, it's like, it's a thing. And that seems to be, to me, at least unique in, like,

new media that they want that connection. They want that sort of tribal kinship with the people

that they, they follow on YouTube or substacker, whatever.

More than anything, I think, is that they want authenticity.

Yeah.

And they want people they trust. And if I just happen to be a familiar face and someone who had been

out there and in their living rooms long enough for them to know me and to, and I gained trust

from that whole CNN experience. But also, I think that that came from me as well as you say,

as you're saying, being tenacious and then just being myself in front of the camera,

the same person that I am in my everyday life. And I think that that resonated with people didn't

necessarily resonate with management all the time. But if they were smart, they would lean into it.

And even some of the things that were like, oh my god, well, I can't believe you said that

they should, I believe that journalism organizations should lean it and have a conversation about

them and say, but this is what you do. But they're afraid, oh my god, we can't do this.

One of the advertisers, the audience. So I think that it's authenticity is what people want.

And they want people they trust. And they also want to feel connected.

When I first started doing this, it was a different thing that I was going to do. And then I

realized, it's like, you know, what I'm doing is very similar to what kind of what I was doing at CNN.

I mean, no interaction with my audience. It feels canned. And I'm just going to sit in my living room

and do a show every day called Live at Five, where I just talk to the people and do the stories they

want and sort of give my, you know, point of view. And it worked because that's what people want.

And so now, as you're saying, it's a thing because people feel that they know me and they can trust

me and that they are actually a part of something. So what I did was build a community rather than a

channel or a program. And I think people were looking and are looking for community in this moment,

but they're also looking for people who are flawed, for people who are outspoken, for people who are

not perfect, for people who are tenacious enough to stand up to authority, even if it's from the

highest office in the land, or stand up to someone on the street or be vulnerable enough to let

someone criticize them live or taped. And so it's for me, it's just that's what it's about.

And it's not really about me because if it was about me, I wouldn't invite people

into my life and I wouldn't invite the criticism that I get just for being so transparent.

Well, you may not think it's about you, but people who watch you want it to be about you. I mean,

I think they want Don. They want to be Lemon Hens. I think they want those things, but then

I'm the one who's giving them those things. So yes, yes, but I don't think it's just about me,

but maybe I don't know. I don't think your ambition is just to make it about you, but I think that

it's because it's you, people are attracted to it. They want it. Even the people that are paying

to insult you online are paying to insult you online. You know what I mean? Because I know you may

know of this. And I think it was a time's piece. If you're making a nasty comment, you're paying

to make that nasty comment. So bring it on. I mean, that's me here for raising you. That's true.

I know you addressed this on your show on Wednesday, but I do want to ask because we're talking about

the sort of what broadcast is trying to mimic. And there's been a lot of reporting on this,

how they're trying to capture some of the authenticity and roughness of like the sort of podcast

universe. And CNN is trying to emulate the style of podcasts using Jake Tapper. And I know Fox News has

a sort of similar model with Will Cain. What do you think when you saw that? What did you think of it?

Well, I talked about it. I was, you know, I have to say, I just have to be real like I can't be fake

about it. I know that's why they're lemon hence. But then the initial thing that I said, I thought

it was a compliment to my colleagues who I think are the best in the business, the best journalist

in the world. And so I was saying that they don't need tricks. People trust Jake Tapper because it's

Jake Tapper. And he's credible. People trust Anderson Cooper because he's Anderson Cooper. And he's

an iconic journalist. And he's built his name and his brand on being out there in war zones,

in dodging bullets and moderating debates and holding people accountable 60 minutes. Like that is

you know, that's some high level shit. And so I, you know, they can do what they want to do.

But I don't think that they should be trying to make their anchors into podcasters because

their anchors are anchors. And they are in this elevated, bonded position because of that. And

I think they need to own that and should not diminish the, not only the anchors, but those three

red letters that means so much to people around the world. And so it's not a, I'm not, you know,

disparaging them. I'm saying maybe this ain't it.

I'm gonna just take it one step further. And they shouldn't be trying to be me. If they want to,

if they want podcasters, Alex, hire some podcasters. Well, MS now is putting runaway country and

pod save America and crooked media on MSNBC, which is another way to sort of retrofit it. But if

you're talking about authenticity, you can't retrofit authenticity. It has to naturally bring forth

from most person and the place. Like you naturally authentically have come to the position that

you're at. And you speak the way that you do and you are who you are not because someone was like

Don, let's try it in your living room. And why don't you wear these glasses with this picture in

the background. You just are doing you. And that's what, that's what works. And I mean, I, you know,

the other piece of it is the tech part, which is it's going to be really hard to convince a 25

year old to get a cable subscription. Like there's just a fundamental fucking reality about who's

consuming podcasts and what they'll pay for and what they won't and what they culturally and

socially normally go or gravitate towards and linear cable and broadcast in general. I'm not saying

this is a good thing for the news industry because I do think there's some utility to having newsrooms

and authentic anchors with lots of experience. But the trend lines are not in that direction.

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It's me the titular john love it here to tell you that I'm coming back to Washington DC for

love to leave it live at the Lincoln theater on April 23rd. That's right. Spring and DC is all

about cherry blossoms and love it or leave it bringing you a stack lineup of guests. That's what makes

it America's number one late night gay live comedy political podcast. We're so excited to be back

to see it's a tradition now that we come around the time of the car response and or even though

the car is honest and are really no longer has comedians that I believe there's going to be some kind

of a magician or a mind mind melder. Yes, a magician. Yeah, I'm a mentalist. A mentalist

because I guess Trump wouldn't know. It's also going. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's in there. Yeah.

It'll be there. Yeah. There's there's there's there's a mental case and then and Trump is also

going there. That's how it is. That's tickets won't last long. They're selling pretty fast. So

get yours now while you still can at crooked.com slash events. Very excited for the DC show. Got

some big guests. I'm pretty exciting. Maybe. Crooked.com slash events.

You know, I must ask you because CNN is on the verge of being run by the Ellison's

and we see what's happening at CBS. We see Barry Weiss mismanagement of CBS a place I used to work.

It has had the worst ratings they've they've had this century, Don. That's Barry Weiss is

jeoparding the worst ratings in CBS's history this century. I'm not surprised. Do you hear from

people inside CNN? Are you worried for CNN? You talk about those three red letters that you

mean so much the world over. Yeah. And I mean, look, I loved I loved CNN. I think CNN is

obviously those three red letters. They do mean a lot, right? That there's credibility there.

And again, I didn't like my exit. I thought they treated me poorly on the way out, but I'm rooting

for them. I'm rooting and I'm rooting for them not because of the management because it was

ultimately them, but because of my colleagues who are there who are working their asses off,

who are great journalists. And I don't believe that the people in positions of power in the gate

keepers are doing them any justice. And so that's where, you know, that's sort of where my

heart is. But I'm not surprised that CBS is his worst ratings. And I will tell you why.

Because in this time that we're living in, that is so unusual when you have such

aberrant behavior by the highest people who are in the highest positions in the world,

in the highest office of the land, and where you see that there's no truth to what they're doing,

where they turn an insurrection into a walk in the park, where they exonerate and pardon the people

who broke into the United States Capitol and smeared VCs on the wall and peed on the wall and

beat up police officers when they are, you know, I can go on with a whole litany of things.

And so when you try to, it's, look, if you want to try to move a network to the right,

when they say, look, they want to move the network to the center. First of all, where's the center?

Where is this? Tell me if you find it. When you find the center, let me know. I just believe

that there's truth to it. And sometimes the truth may be on the liberal side and sometimes the truth

may be on the conservative side. But in this particular time that we're in, if you say I'm going to

move the network to the right, people think you're going to move it to MAGA and it's going to be

about disinformation and lying and racism and misogyny because that's what this is about. This is

the wrong time to try to do that. First of all. And secondly, you don't try to move or change a

network ideologically and news network ideologically because that's not what journalism is. Look,

CNN tried it. They lost their core audience. There's no, there was no payoff for them for the core

audience. And kind of what they're doing now, there's no payoff for it, except if people are

wondering what the hell is going on. This is just like another whiplash moment for the people

who are watching CNN. So I believe if CNN goes down the same road that CBS does, they're going

to need a miracle to get out of it. So I'm not surprised that they had their lower ratings because

people want the truth right now. They want people to stand up to authority. They don't want false

equivalents. They don't want people coming on just to lie. They don't want people who are being

just booked on shows just to fight. There's nothing productive about it. People want the truth.

Some things are objectively bad. And much of what the MAGA administration,

Donald Trump administration is doing is objectively bad for not only people but for the country and for

democracy. And people want that reflected, the real world reflected on the news when they turn

the news on whether it be on broadcast cable or even in streaming. I got to just on that last

point. No, you're not. Because I have to ask you this, Candace Owens is always, I think the top

10. She's always ranked in the top five on Apple news podcasts. Does that worry you? I mean, because

I'm with you on people want authenticity. But I think people have been lulled by a lot of these

MAGA personalities. They're the truth tellers that they're the ones that actually have the read out

on what's what's up. What's real? But I think you're making my point because you're never going to,

I'm not talking about the MAGA folks, that's that's a cult. Those people have the people on the right

have cult like fans and viewers because it just, it's just the nature of conservatives. Maybe they

felt like their voices weren't heard for so long and they actually got into these streaming places.

They were pioneers. So that's one reason they're doing so well. But the people who listen to Candace

Owens are, they're not going to, I'm sorry, they're not going to watch the CBS evening news.

They're not going to watch CNN. They're going to watch Megan Kelly. They're going to watch Candace Owens.

They're going to watch Tucker Carlson. They're going to watch people who are preaching their gospel

and every, at every single turn. And if you want to be a news organization, if you want to deal with

facts, and as you said, shared reality, right, we talked about that, then you're not going to watch

those and not because they're bad. It's just because they're truthful and balanced if you do it

right. But, but if you try to move it to the right, they're not even going to watch that because

they don't trust that. And that's actually not where the news is going right now. They're going

to watch Fox News. And they're going to watch, as I said, all the other people and the Nick

Fuentes is of the world and all that's that's what they're going to do. I'm just, it worries me,

though, that they are seen as, I mean, you're saying forget it. They're part of a cult. Unless

you're going to like, what is it when you get someone out of a cult, deescalate? No, what's the

program? It's the program. They need to be. I don't look at those people as journalism or

journalists. I look at them as influencers and streamers. I'm talking about the people who do

what what I do. What pod save does and what the bulwark does. What Sam Sater does. Like people who

are who are bringing information and have a shared sense of reality. But then they have some swag.

Right. Then they they lean into it. They have their the editorial has teeth. You know where

they're coming from. Right. You don't expect to see someone calling, insulting a black woman

to her face about about a Barack Obama and a Michelle Obama tweet from the president where he

depicted them as apes. And then you're going to have someone come on and go, that's not racist.

And then you'll just like, of course it's fucking racist. Why are you doing this? It's racist.

And so, you know, I'm not talking about those folks. I'm talking about a place where that us

who are doing this now are and have success in it that we're coming from a more factual,

informative, truthful place where we don't try to say, well, this is the middle and that's right

and that's left. Sometimes my subscribers don't want to hear what I'm saying. But I tell them,

look, I know you probably don't want to hear this, but here's the truth. And then at the end of

the day, they'll say, thank you for informing us. I may not like it, but thank you for informing us.

So that's what I mean, then that is an important distinction.

I mean, look at the success. Look at pod saves success. Look at Brian Tyler Cohen's success.

Yeah. Look at, you know, it's and these people, I don't believe that they are, they may be some of

them left leaning. And that's okay. They're transparent about it. But at least they, they're,

there are facts and a shared sense of reality. And they're not saying, well, the first lady of

France is a man. Nobody's saying that on the left. Outrageous shit like that. You know what I'm saying?

It's not propaganda. And I think that there's an establishment, there's an established sort of

baseline of truth and the pursuit of, you know, reality. I will ask you my friend before we let you

go. Two things. Hopefully you like both answering both of these questions. You are, I mean, I just,

it is like there's, it's not like a coincidence that I'm talking to you the week this massive profile

comes out about you in the New York Times. Like there's national interest in what you're doing,

the fight you're fighting against the Trump administration. You've always been in the public eye,

but this feels like a different level, right? Like you're, you're in as they say.

This is why you're a great reporter. I know where you're going. But yeah, in your power,

dare I say you're in your prime. And I, I wonder, I'm giving you a chance. Like have, has this,

what you're doing now and, you know, I'm not, I'm not trying to air out anybody's age here. But

like this is not the normal, like sort of metabolism, the normal career arc that we see, right?

After you've been in the game for some decades. Like has it changed your idea of what it means to

be in one's prime and when that happens? No, because I think that that whole thing about not being your

prime, that was misconstrued. And the one thing that I, that there was one thing that I could,

that bothers me the most of anything is that whole thing. When I said, if you go back and look at

it, I said, I'm not saying that I believe that. The whole point of it was that that is how society

treats women. And someone who has been treated or discriminated against should know better. If you

have been, especially with the way the Republican Party has treated her, they're like, we don't want

her, right? We don't want Mickey Haley to be president or whatever. Oh, I think Democrats,

plenty of people like have a hard time with women over 40. Yes. But so, but women have a hard time

with women over 40. Exactly. But that was, that's how society treats women. And you should know better.

So you shouldn't be an ageist when someone has been sexist or misogynistic towards you. You should

have more knowledge in that. And I think people understood some people understood when she's like,

what was the Civil War about? It wasn't about slave. She said, she didn't say it was about slavery.

And then other things about. So when that came out, some of her ideas were just not for the prime

age. But that wasn't necessarily about that. I thought that about women. I don't. I think the

exact opposite. I think women are the smartest and strongest of the sexist. And every show that I

had at CNN was run by a woman. And our motto was, if you want something done hire a woman,

we hired all mostly women. I had finally, at the end, I had one, my personal producer was a man,

but every single pretty much person on the show, my lead writer, woman. And I grew up in a family

of all women. So that is, that's the one thing that bothered me is because is that people took

that out of context. I could have been a better communicator about it since that's what I do for a

living. That's living. But that's not what I meant. And I told them that I think they understood it.

And you know, you know how that works, right? So, so what I will say is that, do I think that I'm

in my prime? Absolutely. Of course. I'm not delusional. I'm not, you know, I can't run 10 miles

and not die anymore. But, you know, I need more sleep. I have to think about people's names.

Like, wait a minute. What's that over that guy? And it's like, that your husband, his name is

Tim. Oh, yeah. So I'm not delusional. But yes, I do think that because of that, I surprised myself

in what I've been able to do over the past two years. Yeah. Do you think you might ever run for

office? Oh, boy. That was a long past. I hear that all the time. Yeah. And then what do you

think of what happens in your head? I don't want to ruin my life. Why would I invite that sort of

even more criticism and whatever? I don't why would I want to ruin my life with people digging into,

you know, everything about me and and in campaign ads, putting everything that I've ever said that

steam controversial. But I don't even think people would care about that. So I think they would,

they would know. Right. I've never said that I was going to grab anybody by the pussy, right? So

that doesn't surprise me. But I've never said that a woman had blood coming out of her wherever.

But also, I'm not a white man. And the rules are different for me. And so just like the rules,

I believe, sadly, are different for women. They're different for Hillary Clinton,

for Nikki Haley, which was one of the reasons that I said that, you know, with that I would

I meant to say they're different for Kamala Harris. They're different for Alex Wagner. And white

men get away with way more than, you know, women or black people are any minority. And so I think

the rules are different. But I don't know why would I invite that criticism and, you know, my,

the people who my mentors will say, why do you want to take a pay cut? But it's not about money for me.

So do I ever think about it? Yes. Could it happen? Yeah, it could happen. If the opportunity presented

itself, the right opportunity presented itself. Look, if I wanted to, I know people are going to

think I'm crazy. This is going to be the headline and people are going to laugh about it. I think I

could be president of United States. I could definitely run this country better than, than,

than Donald Trump. And for towel roll cut. But yes, you would be market improvement.

As an independent, though, there would be a hard time for me to run for anything because,

you know, the way the system is set up, I'd have to choose a side. And so, you know, I probably,

I probably would have to become a Democrat. And, um, yeah. So, you know, am I at the point,

at that point now? No. And I know people are going to say, Don, lemon is crazy. But yeah, let's,

look, why can't I think about running for office? Why can't I think about being president of

United States when, look at what we have, when anybody, did anybody think Barack Obama, as he says,

this guy with a funny name is from a mixed background. Did anybody ever think that he would become

president? That he had that aspiration. I don't have an aspiration to become president. But I do

think that I could run this country a lot better than Donald Trump. You know what else I think

that I could run better than most people. And I was talking, actually talked about to my husband

about that last night. Please tell me a news organization. Because I was there, I'd been in the game

for so long. And I'm not interested in being, you know, the anchor out front. I could come in and

fix the bulk of their problems and lickety split in no time flat. Boom. Wow. I feel like we're making

news. The lemon heads merch is about to get become collector's item. Yeah. So I'm busy now.

I'm building my own channel and I'm building my own network. And we'll see where that goes. But

if I had to, like, if they dropped me into a news organization, I could, I could fix it up.

I could clean up the place. Don Lemon is ready to conquer the world, ladies and gentlemen.

You heard it here first. I can't wait to see the headlines about the president part. God bless you

for launching your presidential run on a pod save America. We appreciate it. That would be the

perfect place to run. I mean, look at also too. You're definitely running as a Democrat if that's

the case, my friend. And I forgot about Midas. So yeah, I totally, well, that's why I'm saying,

thanks for launching it on pod save America. You know where your bread is buttered.

Don, it is, it is, I knew it was going to be excellent to speak with you, but you've, as usual,

exceeded my conception of what was even possible. So well, thank you. I'm sorry that there are

certain things that I can't talk about legally or whatever, but I think you delivered Don. I really

think you delivered. You think so. You definitely did. Yes, but go out journalists.

Yes. Talk to people. Be unafraid. Go talk to people. Be unafraid. Unbothered and unafraid.

Just like Don. Thank you, my friend. It's great to talk to you. It's great to have some time.

Thank you. And become a subscriber of the Don Lemon Show YouTube Twitch,

substack Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, wherever you get your streaming, Apple podcasts,

Spotify, and I heart radio. There are many opportunities. Like and subscribe.

Go and love Don. Thanks, dude. Thanks to Don Lemon for coming on the show and breaking news.

It's always a pleasure to have you, Don. John and love it will be back in your feed on Tuesday with

a brand new episode. See y'all soon.

The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with

audio support from Kyle Seglon in Charlotte Landis. Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Naomi

Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Ben

Heffkoat, Mia Kelman, Kieryl Pellabeev, David Tolls, and Ryan Young. Our production staff is

proudly unionized with the writer's Guild of America, East.

Hey, love it or leave it listeners. It's me, the titular John Love it. Here to tell you that

I'm coming back to Washington DC for Love it or leave it live at the Lincoln Theatre on April 23rd.

That's right. Spring in DC is all about cherry blossoms and Love it or leave it bringing you a

stack lineup of guests. That's what makes it America's number one late night gay live comedy

political podcast. We're so excited to be back to DC. It's a tradition now that we come around

the time of the car response and even though the car response in our really no longer has

comedians, I believe there's going to be some kind of a magician or a mind, mind-milder.

Yes, a magician. Yeah, I'm a mentalist. A mentalist because I guess Trump wouldn't go.

It's also going. Yeah, yeah, that's it. Yeah, there's a mental case and then Trump is also going

that's right. Tickets won't last long. They're so I'm pretty fast. So get yours now while you

still can at crooked.com slash events. Very excited for the DC show. Got some big guests.

Pretty exciting maybes.

Crooky.com slash events.