When Love Isn't Enough: Navigating Difficult Pet Behavior Without Judgment - Interview with Valerie Bogie

0:00Hi everyone, Deborah Hamilton and you're on Why Do Pets Matter. The podcast that talks about Why Pets Matter to my guests and beyond. I hope you like this podcast. If you do, please like it, give us a five-store, share it with your friends, comment on it because that's how we'll get to those people who need to hear us. Today we're talking with Valerie Bogey. She is a behaviorist and animal behaviorist and a veterinary social worker. She has so many interesting things to share with us today about how to address pets that may not necessarily come fully well behaved. I own one of those in my English-Cocrospaniel. So let's see what Valerie has to say to us. Hi everyone, it's Deborah Hamilton. I am so glad you're here. And I am here today with Valerie Bogey. She is an animal behaviorist and a veterinary social worker. She and I had a conversation, oh, probably a few months ago. And I just had to share her insights and information with you.

1:06Remember, if you like Why Do Pets Matter, which is the podcast you're listening to, please like us, please share us. Please let somebody know about it because we are so glad you're here. And let's hear now. Valerie, how are you going to answer the only question we ask, which is, Why Do Pets Matter to You, Valerie? Excellent. Thank you so much for having me, Deborah. And that's a loaded question. So I can see how one question will take the entire episode. So to me, Pets Matter, because it is one of the only forms of unconditional love that we will ever experience. And to be able to care for and communicate with a being that doesn't even speak your language, I think is such an interesting and unique experience for anyone that's ever owned a pet, loved a pet, known a pet. And despite their challenges, because I work a lot with

2:10dogs and cats that have extreme behavioral issues, people do crazy things to help their pets. They spend so much money. They spend so much time training and going to specialists and the emotional bandwidth, even just the the physicality of walking the big dog that's reactive on leash or, you know, cleaning out all the litter boxes for the cats and things like that. I think there's just so much that goes into caring for a pet that it really is really cool to a street, right? Because the pets need us to give them everything they need. And we're ones on the other end trying to figure it out every single day of, and sometimes it's a moving target, right? If we have a puppy we bring into the house, and then as they go through adolescence, that moving target is going to change on what their needs might be. When we maybe bring a baby into the home, the needs of the pet don't change, but ours do. So we still have to kind of continue to calibrate and

3:12reassess how we're meeting everyone's needs and the household. And I think it's such a testament to our existence as humans to be able to do that because it is challenging a lot of times. And the fact that I work with so many people that are doing everything they can for that pet because they love them so much. I think it's just a amazing relationship that you can have if you want it, right? And you also don't have to have a pet if that's not your thing. And I think that's cool too, that we get the agency to decide. I know some people say the animal chose me, right? If the animal shows up on your back porch or made really cute eyes at you or you're at the shelter, right? So I know there's that aspect of it as well. But I think it's, yeah, it's to me one of the the best parts of being an adult is I was never allowed to have a dog growing up and now I have four. So you're making up for last time. I love that you said that because it's really difficult sometimes for people who love

4:15animals so much to understand how sometimes it's not in the cards for some people. Some people may have grown up with animals, but now don't have animals because they envision the time and the effort and the expense quite frankly of having an animal and it's not in the cards right now. And that's okay. I always say the most disenfranchised people in the universe are people who don't have an animal in their life or who prefer and vocalize that they don't want an animal in their life. Now they aren't people who you come in contact with most of the time unless it's the neighbor talking about the barking dog next door and they don't have a dog. Then that's probably some of the animal behavior information that you're going to gain. I love what you do because as a veterinary social worker, you're helping the veterinarians and their clients and their staff talk to each other and correct me if I'm wrong. And then as an animal behaviorist, you're helping those people persevere. And sometimes I think persevere needs to be tempered with reality. And I don't know how you feel about that but sometimes a really big German shepherd for a 70 year old woman, a young one,

5:22might not necessarily be the best choice, life choice for the German shepherd or the woman might, my neighbor actually bought an 18 month old golden retriever and she's like 85. And does she have a fenced-in backyard? Yes. Does the dog ever go out and get stimulated and have its brain expanded? In the backyard, yeah, but not on a walk because it would really be detrimental. So how do you handle those? Because you love pets, pets matter to you and you help people have the best life with their pets as well as having the pets have the best life as well. At least the last time we talked, that's what I took away. Yeah, I think that's a great example of what we think we want or what we think is best versus like what we actually get in a pet is sometimes different. Right? And so whether it's a younger dog and maybe we're not as mobile and can't walk them anymore, maybe we don't have a fenced-in yard, maybe we get a dog that has separation anxiety and we work 50 hours a week

6:25not at home, right? So I think there can be a mismatch on a lot of different levels. So I think that is one of the hardest parts of wanting a pet or bringing a pet into your home because what do you do when you start to recognize your hopes and dreams of what life was going to look like with a pet are different than what that individual pet needs are. And I labeled that as grief because that's what it is. And a lot of people don't recognize that because they're like, oh, nothing's dying. It's like, well, come here. Your hopes and dreams are kind of dying in that situation because, right? You're like, oh, wait, I made this commitment. I know it's a commitment to bring this animal into my house and we're going to go to the farmer's market and we're going to, you know, I'm going to take them to, you know, my holiday events with my family and we start to realize, oh, the dog is reactive towards kids or, oh, this dog can't be left home alone when I'm at work and I have to take it to daycare every day. Now that's an expense I wasn't planning for. And right, so I think it can go sideways in a lot of different ways. And I think that's where

7:31it can be helpful to work with a behavior team, right? So I work for a board certified veterinary behaviorist. And I provide emotional support for the clients. And then I also provide the training and management sessions as well. And obviously, the veterinarians are in charge of the medical side of things and helping to create the entire treatment plan that I kind of help bring to fruition for the clients in real time. But I think also to just recognizing everyone does have a limit. The resources that we have available to us again, the physical, the emotional, the financial and the time, those are not finite. So I think sometimes too, there are situations where we have to have like a reality check kind of conversation of, is this dog a candidate for rehoming? If we recognize that your stress and the dog stress is through the roof and this is not a good match. And or sometimes, especially when we're at the high level of veterinary behaviorist, sometimes those rehoming conversations do turn into, is euthanasia, a more humane

8:38option. Because if there's a bite history, if there is extreme anxiety and fear where these people that have poured all of their resources into the pet have not be able to get really any leeway, sometimes is a question of what is the most humane for this pet? Are we going to let them continue to suffer in this way? Or is there, you know, something else that we should be doing? So I think that's that's the hard part that a lot of people don't talk about. And I, you know, even just the, oh, we're going to get a puppy. Right, we're not thinking about a end of life plan for the puppy. We're not necessarily thinking about the thousands upon thousands of dollars based on the breed because we know it's going to have hippie issues or we know it's going to have breathing issues, right? Like people don't think about those things and then they're blindsided in a couple years when they start to talk about it. So cute is a baby. Yes. Even if the shelter the babies are so cute. And I love that that you're taking it in a very thoughtful way. Because people who make these decisions to maybe re-home, don't do it

9:42lightly. They've, as you said, they've spent thousands of dollars trying to figure out the keys. I mean, we now have an English cop expanding who drives me over the edge and down the other side. She's only reactive to one thing, the garage door. And she becomes kucho. So we have figured out work arounds where it doesn't really cost us anything, but we never go out of the garage with her. Because it has become this thing for her. And so for her, peace of mind. And for our peace of mind, you know, we tried correction, we tried treats, we tried toys, we tried everything and it was like, yeah, no. So now we just got the front door. And somehow that works really well. But had it continued and had she been really, you know, terrible, we would have thought whether or not she was the right dog for us. And I think that that's like a curse word. You should change your entire life because this dog cannot stay home alone. It eats in the sheet rock. It eats your socks, your underwear, your stockings, then you have to have surgery to pull it out of its gut. It eats

10:46everything. I have a colleague who her dog walks with a beautiful netting on her head. Because if there is something to eat on the ground, she will eat it. You can never get it fast enough. So she just bought these, it's like the beehive people, right? And it has to help grow on the back. And you just put it over there and they can sniff. They can't drink through it, but they can sniff through it. And you know, if you're going to take them for a walk, you know, they're safe. And you're going to let them out in your backyard. You know, they're safe. This is such an important piece of the animal world that is hardly ever spoken to because everyone gets lassy or rintin tin or, you know, all those wonderful dogs and all those books we read were younger who would rescue everyone from a fire and lay quietly at your feet and just be the best dog in the world. And I mean, I as a breeder of Irish setters and long hair doxins and now one English carcass spaniard who has a lot of opinions had I known I might not have picked this breed. And I picked

11:47the Ronin tan one which the breed knows is the most opinionated of the opinions. So there you go. I picked the one with the most. And a girl which of course makes me more opinionated. You definitely have to know what you're getting into. And you have to raise your hand when it becomes even though you love them to death. And it doesn't mean you, you know, you necessarily leave them in a shelter. You can go to the breed group or back to the rescue and see what might be able to be done. It's not like you're abandoning them. It may be that you find someone, you know, the the hypothetical he's out at the farm kind of thing where they go to a farm and they actually do run around with friends, especially if they're a herding dog because a herding dog in the city, yes, they're beautiful. And I love them to pieces and they need a job. Irish setters need a job too. Doxins need a lot of land to dig because they like to make lunar landings. And so your ankles

12:49are at risk. So what have been some of the things that you've been able to help people do that when they came to, they thought, oh my god, this is the last straw. And, you know, simple fixes, simple things. I mean, when I, when I go out, I usually put my dogs in kennels and people go, oh, you're so mean. And I go, well, you know, the reason I do that. And they go, I said, because my house goes on fire, I bring the firemen in to see where they are so they can get them out. Please let the house burn. These are where my dogs are. Here are their leashes on the kennel. Bring them out, tie them to the fence post and then go save my house. But my dogs have to get out. I don't know if you do things like that or if you, if you help people who, you do obviously help people who have issues with their pets. But some of the common things might be what? Yeah. So I wanted to just touch on the farm thing. So yes, for a working dog or, right, like we have, you know, great period. Yeah, but you would never bring a habanese to a farm that would not be a good fit, right? Exactly. Yes. And also too, I think sometimes too, when people are getting down

13:51the road of rehoming, they think there is a proverbial farm, like an actual farm where just everyone's reactive and behaviorally, you know, meaty dogs are going to go. And that's also not really reality. So I think sometimes two people are like, oh, I'll, I'll just, I'll find a better home. I'll send them to this farm. And it's like, actually, those aren't, aren't, you know, like they don't exist. Yeah, they don't exist. And I usually also tell people like, you are already the unicorn home. Like you're not going to find someone else who loves this dog more than you who has jumped through, you know, flaming hoops of fire to be able to try to help them in the ways that you have. And also the stress of trying to rehome sometimes will push the animal over the edge because they're already trigger stacked. They already are on Medicaid right. And it just might be like that entire environmental and routine shift might be too much for them. Right. So those are things to consider. But as far as like things to support pet owners with, so on like the training and management side

14:53of things, we have to take into account where is their stress level. So we actually utilize something called the ZBI. It's a caregiver burden survey that was originally created for humans, care of taking for other humans and then was scientifically validated by Dr. Mary Beth Spitz Nagle to use for pet owners. So that's on our intake form. It's 18 questions like our scales, 0 to 4. How do you feel about each one of these things? We add up those numbers and then let's us know where are they normal above, you know, like, you know, severe, you know, goes up to severity. So the higher the number, the more stressed out that the pet period is because that is a guiding, a kind of a guide post of as they're coming into us and into our journey. Sure things annoying, something's trouble. Some of them, some things really serious. Exactly. Right. And I think too, it's important to know where the client is because so many well-meaning humans are coming at the owners of like, oh, you're here and you want my help? Great. And then they just try to wordwam it. Everything they've ever learned in the last five

15:55years that they have been, you know, studying behavior or that kind of stuff. And that's not helpful for the client. So I think it's a good reality to be like, oh, they're like super overwhelmed. So I cannot send them a 10 page report because they are not going to read it. So I, as the helper, I'm going to mindfully curate a shorter list of to-do items for them. Or I'm really going to hone in on the most important information. So I'm not overwhelming that person. So I think that is something that we always consider when we start working with a family. Readable because if you don't make it readable, if it's too, first of all, it's too wordy and second of all, if it is too long, everything has the, you know, attention span of a nap these days. So you really have to give it in. You have to eat the elephant one bite at a time and I don't mean to offend anyone who loves elephants. I do too. But I'm just saying that this is a problem when you're faced with it that's probably as big as an elephant. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So yeah,

16:56making it manageable, breaking it down into steps. So a lot of times it's not here's the start to finish of this training. They know I'm just giving you three steps and I'm telling you put window film up on your windows and we'll see you in two weeks, right? Because again, you don't want to give them too much where they, they're already overwhelmed. So giving them too much is going to push them over the edges, the caretaker. And then guess what? They're going to come to the next session two weeks later and be like, well, I didn't do the things and a lot of trainers will say, oh, they're lazy or they didn't do that. No, I'm usually saying, well, what did I do wrong? What did I, did I give them too much? This is where you and I, this is where you and I had such a great conversation because it's always about examining whether or not I communicated the importance of this and whether or not I listened to them on whether or not they could follow through. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I think two, even things not only knowing where they are emotionally and stress level wise, but also thinking about the, they're understanding of training, right? Where are they

17:58in that journey? As well as their ability to consume information, right? So usually we'll ask like, do you like, do you like, what do you listen to? Do you listen to podcasts? Do you like, do you want like a bulletin list? Do you prefer videos? Like, because again, everyone has different ways that they learn. So I think if we are just assuming everyone just wants a bulletin list of information, that's not helpful either. So I think we have to kind of rise to the occasion as the animal trainer in those situations to meet the humans where they're at because essentially you have to get through to the human because they're the ones living with the pet that needs the help. So we can't just skip over the owner in that situation. We really have to be able to cater those things to the owners. And then as far as like techniques and things that I think are really valuable for any pet owner that is realizing, oh, my dog has some some extra spicy behavior, just extra challenging behavior.

19:00Number one, positive reinforcement is the only type of learning for animals that is scientifically validated and evidence backed. So it is the safest for the learner. It's working long term. I mean, you might get a really great response. Short term with a negative correction. Yet long term, it's not going to it's not going to be something they want to do. Exactly. And also, yes, it might seem like it works acutely, but the damage that is being done behaviorally and emotionally to that animal is long term for sure. And we you will see the behavior get worse over time. Because a lot of times they're just avoiding. They're not learning what you want them to do instead. Yeah, like Stella with the garage door. She probably should learn what's going on. And I probably just avoided it and walked out the front door. So yes, I'm one of them. And I've had dogs for 40 years. So I too will I don't want to hurt them. I'll just avoid it. And then it'll happen, but let's frequently. Right. Yeah. And that's that is a choice to do. What you are doing in that example is management. And that is one of the best things that any pet owner can do

20:05to change the environment and management. Right. Because we think about training. We're actively training. We're teaching them something. We have our treat pouch. We're doing these things. Again, depending on your bandwidth and your knowledge base, that might be a lot to ask of you if you are already overwhelmed. Management is we're looking at the environment and looking at the day to day for you and your pet to say, where are the spots where we can be proactive? Where can we insert something that's maybe a little bit lower energy to help the animal and help the owner? So things like window film, right? Because a lot of times people come to me, oh my dog so reactive on a walk or my dog hates it when people come over. Oh my dog has this awful separation anxiety. And they're not really right. So you're kind of like zoned in on these are the biggest problems. And you're not really kind of taking those blinders off to look at where is any stress that is part of my animals day because that is adding fuel to the fire. Right. So we really need to

21:05look at all aspects of their day. And so again, sometimes people are like, oh, I don't really care that they, you know, they bark intermittently out the window or when the delivery person comes, but that's okay. I'm like, actually, it's not because every time they're doing that, then their stress levels are going up. And then guess where they're at when you do take a mount side. They are just right at the top where they're going to tip over into that flight fight freeze or, you know, more reactive behaviors. So something as simple as window film putting it over the windows up to nose height. So if your dog can get on a window sill or on a piece of furniture, that's near those front windows where the free TV is going by all day. If we can remove that, that's reducing stimuli. That is going to help reduce their overall stress level. They will be slightly more calm every time you try to take them outside every time you try to have someone come over every time you try to leave them. And that will help in the long run. Or if they are really reactive to the noises, plug in a white noise machine by the front part of the house, set it and forget it. Again, to me, these are

22:07great things because a lot of times it's a one time action again, because I'm being a cognizant of the energy level of my client and how much energy some of these things take. And then a lot of times I'll say, okay, how are you usually feeding your dog out of a bowl twice a day? Great. Okay. Can we for three meals a week? Right? So, you know, it's 14 meals. So can for three meals out of the week, can we feed them not in the bowl? And I give them ways to do that. Can we put it in an empty Amazon box and they got to figure out how to get it? Do you have a snuffle mat? Do you have a slow feeder? Do you want to just fling it one kibble at a time and they got to run and get it and come back to you? Right? And you just make it last a lot longer. Do we do a scatter feed and you open the doors, fling all the food and then you let that animal go in and close the door, especially if you have multiple animals and things like that. But just those little tweaks, because we also know from our own human behavior, you can't just start a new routine. Right? How many times is a cold turkey

23:11kind of thing actually worked, not usually? Right? So we have to build routine in for the animals through the owners first. And that's why I like to take these kind of tiny little stair steps because you build confidence. And then they start to see, oh, I didn't think the window film was going to do anything, but I did it anyways. And oh, I noticed it is a little bit more calm in my house. There, oh, I noticed my dogs a little bit more restful because they're not on alert all the time. And that's where then they're like, okay, trust you. Let's go. And we can keep working that way. I love this because when we got the English Cocker Spanio, it was my husband's dog and my husband's never had a dog. I've had dogs since I was like eight. He had family dogs, but I never had a dog that was his own. So this one was supposed to be his dog. And I said, okay, fine. Then I need you to know that I'm going to do nothing for her. I said, because if you want her to be your dog, then you're going to have to go to a young puppy obedience class. You're going to have to theater. You're going to have to walk or you're going to have to put the collar on. You know,

24:12you're going to have to bathe or you're going to have to figure out how to cut her nails and things like that. I'll show you. I said, but these are things where you're bonding with them, where they get to trust you and know you. And he was surprisingly to me, very compliant. How do you handle, because I know that in my old neighborhood of Oramunk, New York, everybody would hire this one guy to come in and train their dogs or take the dog and train it for two weeks. And I would go, well, that's great. That guy will get to do that. Have that dog do anything it wants. You don't have any idea what how he's training the method he's using, anything like that. But if unless you are there and the dog is learning with you alongside you, it, it, I don't know, Valerie, does it work? I don't think, I don't think it works if somebody else does it. And Hansi Alicia says, just use these words. If you said, come, they're going to come because they know if they don't come, they're going to get punished or whatever the training method was or they're going to be rewarded, whatever. But if you're not doing it, you have to sort of retrain them to trust you because

25:17they trust Valerie because Valerie took the dog and trained it. But I wasn't there. And so Valerie's going to hand me this dough. It's fully trained and beautiful. And yet, isn't going to listen to me. My usual sentiment to people that are starting to talk about that, right? Because you're at the end of your rope. You're looking for everything. You're tired. Yes, which is understandable, right? So you're like, can something is maybe I'm doing it wrong. Maybe someone else needs to just take this dog and train it for me. I understand the allure of that. But I usually also say, if it seems too good to be true, it probably is. So again, like the, there is a tiny small percentage of positive reinforcement programs that are maybe like a day train or a board and train, like you're talking about where they actually do take the animal for a couple of weeks and work on things. And then usually built into those programs is time with you and your dog to be like, okay, look, I got this, you know, because we need to transfer that cue and transfer that knowledge to the human end to the dog. Right? So that the dog can generalize that, oh, you can ask for it.

26:18You can ask for it. And I do the same thing and I get the same reward, right? So a good program will have that built into it. A good program would have, you know, you look on the website and the social media and there are no prong collars. And there's, you know, yes, like there's video cameras. You can see what's going on. But again, the, the percentage of those that exist in our country very small. So nine times out of 10, if someone's like, oh, there's this board and train or, I mean, you're like, okay, send me the website. Let me do some digging. And I can usually find out pretty quickly, especially if the, the human doesn't have any certifications or anything like that. Where they're like, I love dogs or 20 years. And I'm like, okay, so, but do you know anything about animal behavior that may be not? So yeah, you usually steer people away from that. And try to think about again, like, okay, how can we make things easier for them? Right? And I think it might take you six weeks instead of three weeks because you're already overstimulated with what you've done to try

27:19to help this dog. Let's, let's take it slow. Yeah. So that you can have some successes because I think the problem is that you need to have, you need to see it. Like you said, that woman with the film didn't think it had worked. She put it on the windows and oh my god, it worked. They, they have to see some positive momentum. Maybe not change, but momentum. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I always remind people to like our human brains have a negativity bias. We are pre program to look for the other shoe to drop, to look for the danger around the corner, not really helpful since we don't have to run away from saber-toothed tigers anymore. But it's still in there. So I think sometimes two, again, where people kind of are really focused on the worst problems at hand and they are sometimes missing the, oh, I have been doing, you know, feeding differently three times a week. And oh my dogs a little bit more tired on those days because I've helped

28:20them use their brain and their body in a different way. Or oh, they're witching hour and the evening wasn't as bad on the nights that I fed them differently. Right. So sometimes they're not able to connect the dots. I think also two, you know, data is always so helpful. So before we start working with them, I always encourage them. Can you kind of map out your dogs kind of, we talk about like the fear anxiety spectrum of like the green yellow red and the kind of the different forms of like their stress levels. Write that out. Where are your dogs at right now? And then that way, as we move forward, you can reflect back and you can actually remind yourself that you are doing a good job and that there is some progress somewhere because I think it is sometimes hard for clients to see the the forest for the trees kind of situation. And I think that again, that's why the the management side of things can be really helpful for people because it's a little bit more manageable to put some of those things into place in those situations. And then also two of someone's really at the end of the rope. It's okay, right? And I think that's the other part of it too,

29:22where it's just. And there's shame and blame. You know, this is all your fault because you didn't do this. You didn't call me earlier or any of that. No, no, no. Yeah. And we know so much about where behavior comes from. And it's so similar for animals as it is for us. I mean, we are just large mammals by the at the end of the day. So it goes back to the genetics of the parents. It goes back to the mother ring. It goes back to those early life experiences of that animal. And most of those things, you have no control over and you don't really have control over things and tell your animal land in your house. And I don't care if they're from a breeder or from a rescue or you have found them on the street. You usually don't know all the nitty gritty details of those things. And those are directly influencing that animal's behavior for the rest of their life. And then the things you can't control once they are in your household, they learn to behavior history. What are they exposed to? What are their, like, kind of like a monster that didn't come a monster too. Right. Yeah. Well, and so a lot of times, too, yeah, people get into that like, oh, I did this one thing this one time. And that's why my animal is this way. I say, no, actually,

30:26no, look at this list of things that are at play that, yes, that one thing you did that one time does affect learned behavior history. But when we zoom out a little bit, we know that there is so many other things underlying that are affecting this. Also, one of the biggest things that people don't think about in behavior issues is pain. Pain is up to 80% of behavior cases have undiagnosed untreated pain somewhere in that dog's body. And so many times we assume, oh, they're just getting more reactive because I'm not training them right now. There could actually be pain. And that's increasing the intensity of their reactions. Or they used to act a certain way around people. And now they're like more shy or reserved or fearful. Could that also, you know, or their noise sensitivity like thunderstorms or fireworks has gotten worse, right? And they, yeah. And that happens when like they're six or seven. They've been fine before. Why are they having a problem now? Well, we all change. I mean, I was never allergic to anything. And now when the sky turns yellow, I start coughing. So, you know, there are things that happen as we age.

31:29Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So I love it. I love this. I love this because you know, people don't really give themselves a break. And they either blame somebody like you said, well, I don't know what his past was. So I'm just going to blame it on the breeder or I'm going to blame it on their rescue. I'm going to I hate when they say, well, you know, she was bred forever and she was terrible and her life was horrible. And right. And now what can you do with the help of someone like you Valerie to help her gain her footing, gain her grounding, gain his footing or his grounding. So that they can become the pet you hope they could be. And of course, I always say there's the pet you think they're going to be. And then there's the pet they are, which works too. Yeah. Yeah. So and that's I think the conversations that I have when I'm doing like leading support groups or, you know, doing more of the veterinary social worker side of my work. I was just going to

32:31ask you about that. So perfect segue. Yeah. Yeah. So I think those are those conversations where again, I'm not shaming. I'm not blaming. I am here to listen. Because a lot of cases when someone has an animal that has some extreme behavior issues, they do feel ashamed. They do feel guilty. And maybe the people in their direct circles in their life don't understand that because I already know this is your poll. This is your fault. Just get rid of it. Right. You know, they say, oh, it could be worse. All of those things that aren't necessarily helpful or supportive. Because people don't always know what to say. So I think a lot of times people kind of shut down and don't really talk about it anymore because they realize they don't feel safe when they do. So that's where a support group where you can build community. Because again, some of these situations are so, so very isolating. So being able to come to a support group with people from around the country, around the world that are like, oh, yeah, I have a dog that also ate my wall

33:32or oh, yeah, I can't walk my dog without a muzzle or right in normalizing some of the experiences that they are living every single day can be really powerful. And then as far as like in the one on the alone, you're not alone. You're right. And it's so it's it's like one of my friends coined it as she does some grief-work and things like that. She calls it tragic magic, right? The reason that brings us all together is kind of sucky and tragic. The fact that everyone in the group has an animal that has some behavior challenges. But the magic part is that you're like, you start to see people's faces soften and right just and sometimes there's tears and sometimes there's joy and we're celebrating things for each other. But just that ability to connect with strangers in 90 minutes or become like best friends because you know, you're you're rowing that boat in the same direction. It's the boat with a lot of rapids. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And you don't have to explain yourself. You

34:33don't have to explain to these people why you wait until the neighborhood is quiet and walk your animal at the off-peak hours on a four foot leash and only go out to potty. You don't have to explain to these people why you have to have pet sitters anytime you want to go out for dinner with your friends. Like you don't have to explain those things because everywhere everyone in that group understands it in their own way, which I think is really nice. And then you know, going back to the you know, the shame and kind of some of the negative self-talking things like that again, like in the support sessions, I am not a licensed clinical social worker. Nor do I pretend to be. So I'm not a therapist. What I can do for people is I'm there to act of listen with you. I am there to resonate with what you're saying. I'm there. If you want resources, I can share resources with you. Because I think so many times we will just want to be heard. They just want to be seen. They just want to know that their experience is validated by somebody. And I can do that for them as well.

35:35They're not alone. They're not alone. And people actually appreciate that they're acknowledging there's an issue. They want help with it. They don't want somebody to shame or blame them. They just want somebody who's going to give them some tools. They are going to make their experience with their beloved dog. They would walk on hot calls for even though the hot calls are probably dragged out of the fire by the dog. They would do that. I am this has to go on because I wanted to ask about so many other things like the social work part of grief and you touched upon it gently. Because that is a piece. The New York State Bar Association did a whole three part program on bereavement. And it was one of the best attended and it didn't have continuing education except the one I did on whether or not you could bury your dog in the backyard in New York. All the legal pieces of bereavement means. But this is something that really the industry has just become. I mean,

36:38we all knew about it. We would talk to each other about losing an animal. But we wouldn't go out to the great beyond because if somebody walked up to you and said it's only a dog you might deck them. So that was probably better like you said go out in the middle of the night because you don't want to be reactive to the person who says it's only a dog. I mean, you know, so I would love to have you back. How can people get in touch with you Valerie? So they can either find you or someone you know nearby who can help them with their dog that they may love to pieces and just has a little bit of as I talk about Stella opinions. Yeah. So as far as meeting with me. So our human support services through the vet behaviors practice in site animal behavior services. Those human support services are virtual and open to everyone across the country across the world. I've worked with people internationally as well. So that's the the bonus of virtual. So if someone just wants to have a support session with me that way or wants to join any of our support groups,

37:41we can put those links in the show notes. And then as far as like the actual like training sessions those are just for our clients. But you know, you can look on fear free. You can look on, you know, Karen prior association I double ABC. There's a lot of really great positive reinforcement only organizations and kind of certifying bodies for animal trainers that you could look to to find a good trainer in your area. And then I also have created a directory that has both veterinary social workers as well as others that are trained in other parts and facets of human animal bonds. So that could be a death doula that could be someone that has extra like pet loss grief support could be someone that focuses more on the animal assisted interventions and therapy dogs and things like that. So the directory currently has over a hundred people internationally and continues to grow. It is a self-reported. So if anyone listening is like, Oh, I could be on that directory. Yes, you could. So look there because there's a form you would fill out and then auto

38:45populace your information onto the directory. And then people can just keep that link to the directory and check back on it. And because that list continues to grow. And currently in the United States at least we still don't have a way to easily help people if you are a licensed therapist or licensed clinical social worker, you still are kind of bound to helping those in the states that you are licensed in. There is down the way coming it's in the works of being able to, you know, there's a larger percentage of the United States that have said yes for, you know, social work and counseling and some of these different mental health certifications. If you are certified in one then you will kind of give you authority to be able to help people in all of those states. That's not live yet. So for the time being just know that if you are. Yes, yes. So that's one of the benefits I feel like at least for me like again, I am not trying to be a therapist. I'm not diagnosing you.

39:47I am not going through your insurance, all of that kind of stuff. So this really is kind of an ancillary service because I also work with so many people that they say, I already have a therapist right? I'm already working on that stuff. I just want someone who knows more about the behavior side of things and the veterinary social work side of things. And so that's where I feel like I can be a part of a team that is helping a human or helping an animal in those situations without you know, overstepping because there are times where I'm like, oh, okay, this is, you know, like I can help you with this, but maybe we need a professional for this and that's where I can go to my directory and say, hey, I have, you know, there's these three people in your state, you might, you know, I can send you their information so that you can connect with them, right? So I think that's also one of the great things about social work in general, like we are, give her of resources. So it's again, if something's out of my scope, I'm going to find someone that can help you if you're open to that resource because we always want to make sure we're giving the humans agency, just like we're trying to give the animals agency in these situations as well. I love this and all this will be in the show notes. Valerie's going to provide it to me so

40:50you can look at the show notes. I am so glad you've been here, Valerie. And, and please let's try to get back together in a month or two to talk about the other things. And also the therapy dog work because there are so many things that are coming up for me with that. So until next time, Valerie, thank you so much for being here and everyone kiss your dog, your cat, your bird, your horse, your lizard, everybody because they really do matter to us. Thanks so much. 10 years ago, with my iPhone and a script, I recorded the first episode of the Ultimate Pet Resolution Summit, which chatted with experts about complex overanimals. Our conversations were intimate, honest, and illustrated how disagreements over animals occur and how those disagreements can reshape people's lives and relationships. In November 2019, I started Why Dupets Matter, a new podcast that continued these informative discussions. I'm so excited to have you here with me continuing my exploration into a more meaningful conversation about why pets matter to all of us.

41:52My guests and I will share ideas, stories, and experiences straight from the heart, unscripted, and holistic. From the bravest moments to the most brokenhearted, we will explore how to resolve disagreements over animals differently. One thing I know for sure is I want to have more meaningful conversations that will help all of us unlock that deeply felt human animal bond that drives the emotions of conflict.