When Recovery Stalls After Mold or Chronic Illness - The Mast Cell and Nervous System Pattern Many Patients Miss with Dr. Christian Jenski | Stress | E126

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And like zombies, they will affect or infect adjacent healthy cells

and make more senescent cells.

And then you have deterioration of target end organs,

and you have aging.

You age faster.

MUSIC

Welcome back.

Once again, we are finishing up our conversation

about mystery illnesses, diseases illnesses, things

that look like a lot of things.

They're amoeba.

They're just morphic.

They can be almost anything.

Hide behind the scenes, you know, cry fatigue, fibro.

And today we want to talk about a mass of activation syndrome

and finish up with central nervous system dysregulation.

Sometimes it's referred to as trauma brain,

limbic kindling.

Embedded dysfunction, dysfunction, whatever you want.

But these are two things that we see often

that complicate people's health stories.

So we'll start with mass of activation syndrome.

Yeah.

So Dr. Jenski, what's a mass cell?

Yeah.

So a mass cell is a type of cell in the immune system

that is kind of like a little bag of inflammatory mediators.

I mean, it just houses histamine and other inflammatory cytokines

and lactobating factor and all these little things

that have specific jobs that typically create horrible symptoms

in patients when they're unleashed.

And they're kind of the bridge between the neuroendocrine

immune systems, like they just kind of all interweave.

They line the GI tract, they line our blood vessels,

they're at the skin surface.

So they're just kind of everywhere.

Waiting to be triggered kind of you picturing your head,

the COVID molecule with all the little spike proteins on it.

They kind of look like that.

They're waiting for a trigger and then they just,

but they just vomit out all of those inflammatory cytokines.

And it's protective or at least it's supposed to be

and in the setting of an acute injury or issue, it will be.

But if they're being triggered all the time

and it's creating havoc and an individual on it,

get symptoms, anything from typical allergy type

for hypersensitivity symptoms.

So, you know, flushing, dermatographism,

oral allergy syndrome, difficulty swallowing,

difficulty breathing all the way through anaphylactic shock.

But you could have mood disorders, anxiety, panic,

you can have headaches, you can have insomnia from this.

Obviously GI issues because they're lying the GI tract,

what is that pain, bloating, diarrhea,

constipation and the like.

So, there's a whole constellation of symptoms

that go along with it that you can kind of pinpoint

back to mass cells.

They are a necessary evil,

but they are very problematic in a lot of patients.

Yeah, until you point you said previously,

they lie in hollow organs.

So you're gut, you bladder, uterus, lungs, sinus.

Correct.

And so there are types of mass activation

that look like endometriosis.

Yeah.

Look like PCOS, interstitial.

I see.

Yeah.

So, yeah, chronic interstitial.

Interstitial cystitis is a type, IBS.

They also around nerve bundles.

And so the bridge, they're literally a bridge

between your nervous system

and your immune and vascular system.

So you can have fascial symptoms,

racing heart rate, blood partial fluctuation.

You can have a mood dysregulation.

I remember when I did my training at VCU,

and I was on the psych ward for the month I was there.

They were giving like schizophrenia patients

who didn't respond to medications,

shots of IM and IV, Benadryl, and hydroxysine.

At that point in time, I didn't quite,

I'm like, that's kind of weird.

But now at hindsight,

and when we learn about surers,

like you can have a psychotic break.

That's a mast cell phenomena.

A mast cell activation syndrome

usually is triggered by something.

And one of the biggest triggers is

what are the damage buildings?

So I was studying, we have a link,

but part of the amorphous confusion about it

because it does connect your nervous system

with your interreformal system

and your vascular system.

All of a sudden it can look like a whole bunch of things.

Yeah.

It gets confusing because typically it's triggered by something.

And once it goes, goes awry,

all of a sudden now you can have a thing

called tilt syndrome toxic induced loss of tolerance,

which I'm in a group with Dr. Aferin

and some of the people in there were saying

we should use tilt syndrome,

potentially more of the mast cell

because mast cell is being belittled

by specialists in our country.

But tilt syndrome actually is recognized,

which is just a mast cell phenomena

where you have chemical sensitivity,

food sensitivity, and drug sensitivity.

So you react with medications, supplements, foods.

Yeah.

And if you have all three of those,

you have a 94% or 96% chance of having tilt.

So yeah.

If you have two of those,

it's about 60% chance of having tilt.

And how many people do we see?

Yeah.

Who haven't had a lot of sensitivity?

A lot.

Medication sensitivity, supplement, food.

Yeah.

I mean, most of our patients,

other than the ones that just want like optimization, right?

Yeah, yeah.

I think that makes sense.

It's the semantic issue bothers me a little bit,

but I understand it because it went from,

you know, we've known about mast cells

and we learned about mastocytosis in medical school,

as it's like extreme form of it

that I believe is like cancer.

And so I think that everyone just started

blaming everything on mast cells

and like, came and kind of talks about,

it's not like we all of a sudden just woke up

and everybody just started having a mast cell issue.

They've been around forever.

Mast cells are problematic.

They've been triggered.

We're just saying it too much.

And I think it's starting to kind of irritate some people.

I don't think the people should get offended

by overuse of mast cell.

The whole point is that you're trying to figure out

what's wrong with that patient

and do something about it.

Whether you call it mast cell activation syndrome or tell,

I don't care.

Call it something, call it whatever you want,

name it after yourself,

but make the right diagnosis and treat it, right?

Like it's just dumb that they're playing these semantic games,

but this is a real thing that we see all the time

and it's just kind of hard to pin down

because it looks like everything

and lab testing's not great.

Yeah, and to many points you said previously,

Dr. Mulderings, who's a German researcher on this field,

has estimated in Germany maybe 22 to 24% of the population

has mast cell activation syndrome.

I'm saying teams are 19%, 19% population, 19 to 20%.

Well, the population has mast cell activation syndrome.

Well, that number's pretty close to our number

for the people of a gene for surgery.

And so when you let Mulderings trigger,

it's one of those things, there's rare things

that's everywhere.

Part of the confusion is there's a consensus one

and a consensus two statement, white papers on both,

that define this and one define it more as a pathology

to your point, the mast cell activation disease.

And then consensus two, consensus two looks at it

more than mast cell activation syndrome.

And the problem is there's two different roads.

You know, it's almost like smoking causes problems.

No, it doesn't.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't know if you remember that,

but I was, I mean, I grew up in Virginia

and at the time when we debate it was controversial,

the smoking was bad for us.

Yeah, it's crazy.

And so we're kind of at that road with this.

And because the lab's not great,

they're basing some of the diagnosis

on rate of change of a normal value.

If your trip takes go up by more than this percentage,

even though both are still normal,

like it's just kind of crazy.

But the other thing, the confounding variable with SARS

and I'll just touch on this briefly

without making you too complicated is that,

yes, mold and biotoxins can trigger mast cells,

but if you're a SARS patient,

the other issue that happens is that your histamine pathways

get upregulated, which are regulated by mitochondria.

If they get upregulated, that means turn on.

If they're turned on,

then any nucleated cell in the body,

which has the potential to make histamine,

starts making histamine.

So it goes beyond mast cells at that point.

And so you may do a lot of mast cell-specific intervention

and not gain any ground with that patient

because you're not also doing anti-histamine

so it works in other ways.

So if it is a SARS patient, yes, mast cells on my radar,

but I'm also understanding because of my understanding

of SARS that I gotta do up and downstream.

I can't just go after mast cells.

I gotta tackle all of this and literally

throw all the things at this patient to see

if this is an issue, if it sticks, if they get better,

or if you're able to kind of figure that out loud wise,

if you can get an experimental gene or something like that,

but that's the complicating variable

versus just mast cell mediated,

where you can then give them a mast cell stabilizer

and all of the sudden things are better.

Like if it's just GI-centric, give them some cromolin,

maybe you try a little catatophon,

maybe you use something natural like quercetin,

but if they're not getting better,

you might wanna add some anti-histamines,

H1 and H2 blockers, maybe some diamine oxidase,

maybe outer-ideadrogenase, support,

all the other things that go along with it.

It's complicated, it's really complicated.

It's also where it becomes tricky as well as we use,

there's this thing called the pentad super syndrome,

yeah, which is, it's a syndrome of syndromes.

And if you see one of these, you always look for the other ones.

So hypermobility is one of these,

autoimmune issues, gastrointestinal issues,

mast cell activation syndrome, and dyslodinemia.

And so, and these have the instance of these

are very, very similar.

But if you have one of these mast cell activation syndrome,

and you've got dyslodinemia and GI issues,

and you're hypermobil, then all of a sudden,

you get your nervous system gets dysregulated.

And so the mast cell component, it's more,

it's a piece of a puzzle that needs to be addressed,

but that's also, I think,

till we talked about earlier in this series is that,

find out what's some trigger, what's your trigger?

If your trigger was a hike with a tick bite,

or was moving to a brand new house with lots of new carpet,

or moving to an old home that you renovated,

but all of a sudden, you need to figure that out as well,

because treating the mast cell can help calm symptoms

that fit your service patient, or a lion patient,

or post-concussive syndrome.

Yeah, and doing a head injury, which induced leaky gut,

which messed up your nervous system,

and now you're leaking these protein particles

and activating your nervous system,

and you're developing food sensitivities.

Da, da, da, da, da, da, da.

You're a yes-treeing problem that can be helpful with that,

course attend, a bunch of those things,

but you really need to power on your brain,

start all the stall.

Yeah.

Almond, that's worse.

Nobody really thinks about it.

Again, going back to grow old experiences,

which I think is very helpful.

My new intake today is a young man

who's had four concussions in the course of a year.

He's got no GI symptoms, but I can guarantee you

that his gut's gonna be a mess,

because he's getting a gut test,

because everybody does.

I will not see somebody if they don't do a poop test.

It's just, it's that important, and the reality is,

is that he went to a concussion clinic.

He went to the local concussion clinic,

and they cleared him at no point in time

that they addressed his gut.

He went to a neurologist who did an MRI

and put him on a verapimil.

At no point in time, have they addressed his gut?

So they're giving him a calcium channel blocker,

they're calling him atypical migraine

or post concussion migraine or ocular migraine.

And really, the reality is that this kid needs his gut cleaned up,

but he's also a potential search patient.

His mom's a search patient, his brother's a search patient.

So there's the tie that binds.

Maybe he was cooking surers all along,

couple of head injuries,

and being then boo, him now of us only symptomatic.

Like, it is the thing that brings things together.

It is the things that makes things worse.

You gotta find a root cause, you gotta work through it.

Yeah, and I think that's a good point

when we talked about it.

People will hyperfocus on one of these.

So hyperfocus on EDS, hypermobile.

They'll focus on my gut on mass cell, you know, on mold,

but they won't realize, you know, most of our patients are,

I'm like, oh, you're a surers, mold, lime concussion.

While my gut concussion, mass cell, it's like,

figure out what someone's cocktail is and layering that.

It's ultimately, it's individual, individual for every person.

That's not gonna be a one size fits all.

You know, one thing I love for concussions

that I've had such good results with,

or two things actually, hyperbaric,

you can bypass a lot of the issues with blood flow,

dysregulation, you can actually,

there's great literature, tree and flamethrower about disease.

I've actually had several Crohn's patient

going to mission solely from hyperbaric.

So it does a lot of cool things.

And then since we deprivation, flow tanks,

the military's users have actually post-concussive syndrome

patients, whether it's the meditative aspect,

the magnesium, whether it's the,

removing the earth's gravitational forces,

which somehow helps reset the nervous system.

But all of a sudden now, that patient who,

this is your predical, actually, it's nuanced.

It's nuanced.

Chromelin, I absolutely love, I've had patients

with bad dysionomia and pain syndromes.

And Chromelin supposedly is not really well-absorbed,

orally, it's only affecting the mass cells in your jet track.

One of my patients, her pots went into remission

with four times a day in her pain.

She had this weird fire pain went away

with four times a day before Chromelin.

Yeah, I love it when it works.

For me, it's like a coin flip.

Like, there's nothing, or it solves the problem,

or at least something.

Almost say that's in my clinical experience,

that's a true statement.

Yeah.

For me, it did nothing.

For one of my patients, it was like a godsend,

and she's like, I'm gonna take this forever.

Back to therapeutic trials.

Yeah.

The bigger toolkit, the practice of medicine,

what's the best thing for this person?

And you create a protocol, but through alias,

probably for you, it involves me.

It changes when the people come back,

through messaging, through it, throughout the visits,

like depending on how they're responding

to what we recommend.

Yeah, because physiology changes.

Like, it's about continuously updating data,

either through a story, or through hard data

in the way of labs, or both,

you're getting information either way.

And then you utilize that new information

to either stick with the plan or modify it.

And then you just keep working towards the same goal.

So let's talk about some mass-electivision syndrome

and post-viral illnesses.

Yeah.

The most recent one is COVID, long COVID.

Yeah.

And this might be a debate between us,

because there's two camps you wanna claim,

post-COVID for them.

The serves world wanna claim it for them.

Yeah.

The massive people wanna claim it for them.

I'm in the serves camp.

I'm sure the serves camp, which one are you in?

It depends.

Are you straddling them?

You get one foot in each?

Well, I've had a couple of long COVID patients

who lived and worked in molding environments.

They were clearly serious patients.

And I've had patients who got the remission

doing like Abermectin and H1H2 blockers.

Yeah.

So I think that depends, which camp I'm in.

It depends on the individual.

And I don't think it needs to be fractioned.

I will say that the serves camp, in my opinion,

also covers mass cell because of all the histamine stuff

that we see in serious patients.

So I think that's kind of the same camp.

But yeah, if you can get a patient better

that has long COVID with just treating mass cells

and doing a little other basic antiviral support,

why wouldn't you?

Why would you push them down the path of $50,000 remediation

and swiffer testing and IEPs and binders and stuff

if they don't need that, right?

That's great when that presentation happens.

So I think it's less about camps and more about

what's going on in the patient sitting across

from you on that given day.

My issue with camps in the serves literature

or at least in the service world is that I think some

are skewing the way that it's seen by the masses

that will eventually pull the strings of this becoming

kind of standard of care.

If it was more unified, it might push towards standardization

more quickly.

And if they're looking down, seeing us in three

or four different camps and who believes,

are we believing shoemaker or are we believing Neil Nathan

or are we believing Joe Carnahan?

And it's like, at that point in time,

they're just like, they're just bumbling around

and no one really knows what's up.

If we were unified, I think it would be something

that we can kind of present a little bit differently.

I am basing my treatment on how I was trained,

which is certification through shoemaker and Dr. Amit.

So I just think like long COVID,

when it was first described to me,

when it was this, like this aha moment in the,

you know, we're gonna establish a multi-disciplinary clinic

with these types of practitioners

because long COVID is mitochondrial dysfunction

and inflammation and oxidative stress

and auto-immunity and persistence of viral illness

or reactivation.

And it's like, and that sounds familiar.

What is that's a holy, oh, that's serves.

Because literally, that's how I was taught serves.

And so it felt like it just overlapped.

So maybe the way to think about,

because you know, I first saw the triangles,

like, you know, festeros, the gratera,

and it was reclusive spider bites.

Yeah.

It was, you know, one damage building,

these are the serves thing.

And they've been adding on, you know,

post-concussive and,

so maybe MCAS is just, you know,

the newest thing they'll get folded in there.

I think it's gonna get folded in.

Have you been told there's nothing wrong with you

or worse, there's nothing we can do for you?

We were told our daughter, Anna, would never walk,

talk, crawl, or even see.

We were also told to start surges

when she was just 18 months old

and we said no to all of it.

Today at 19, she's thriving.

And here's what really shakes me to the core.

Her story isn't rare.

I've seen this happen in hundreds,

the thousands of patients in my clinic.

Incurable.

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One thing I really with, you know,

with the long COVID stuff,

is the whole concept of senescent cells.

Yeah.

You have these monocytes that are supposed to turn over

and they decide not to.

And they sound these cells, yeah.

And they hang out for six months and all of a sudden

you're finding spike protein particles in someone,

you know, four or six months out.

Oh, you still have virus in your body.

It's still replicating.

And it's like, no, you have these senescent cells.

Yeah.

And so senescent cell therapies,

they sound analytics,

they're analytics, they just become

really helpful for these individuals.

But then you're kind of going back

then like that, there's dysfunctional cells.

You know, the monocytes,

that part of this weird kind of immune dysregulation.

You can see with both,

surges as well as mast cell.

It's failure of an innate mechanism called autophagy, right?

Like it's cellular housekeeping.

Your immune system is designed to thin the hurt.

Clear out the bad stuff, including your own cells,

when they are dying or dysfunctional

or hurting the host.

When your autophagy fails,

when your apoptosis program cell death fails,

is when you start to get more senescent cells.

And like zombies, they will affect

or infect adjacent healthy cells and make more senescent cells.

And then you have deterioration of target end organs

and you have aging, you age faster.

So the whole push towards seniletics

is really spearheaded by the anti-aging community.

Because it's like, how do we turn off the zombie cells?

How do we turn apoptosis and autophagy back on?

When you look at the transcription,

dysregulation and service patients,

what are some of the things they're measuring?

Defective apoptosis of neurons.

Neurons that are supposed to be

often themselves not doing it.

Defective autophagy, you're seeing

poor antigen presentation,

you're seeing B and T cell receptor dysfunction,

you're seeing TGF beta receptor signaling dysfunction.

So like all these things that should be running smoothly

aren't and you just get these zombie cells.

Like Chorsatin is a really well known seniletic.

It's also a mast cell stabilizer.

It's also a zinc INA4, which makes it antiviral.

So like that's why Chorsatin was such a game changer.

It's doing like six different things.

You could use it in any one of these individual cases,

whether it's a service case, a mast cell case,

you can use it for cardiovascular,

you can use it as an anti-inflammatory,

you can use it as post-firal.

And yet there it is doing all of them at once.

Well, Chorsatin also in the Lyme world

is used to treat some of the Herk's reactions.

We start treating people's illnesses.

They have all these horrible reactions.

Yes, there's a fair draw of Japanese knot weed,

has the source from there, you know.

But one of the things is Chorsatin,

which it's blocking this Herk's reaction,

which can mean a lot of things to a lot of people,

but it's you take something

and you kill things off in your immune system,

goes, bump, walk or so.

And it keeps that calm.

And then qualsaracus is a rare draw.

That's another scionality.

Did you use Drapalmice in that much?

Haven't.

No, I'm just curious, idea.

Who's it with a few people?

Yeah.

And it's worked well for the few people I've used it,

but it's been very...

Cyclate?

Yes.

Can't do a consistent way.

Yeah, but once a week.

Yeah, once a week.

Yeah, two to five milligrams.

Well, my patient's actually in a gang diagnosed

with my co-back to your main complex,

lung infection, and had pain and systemic low immunoglobulins,

IgM, I'm IgE, as well as IgG.

He did really well in this for a couple months

until we got that diagnosis.

And then we got the diagnosis.

His pulmonary doctor was like,

you're going on a triplanet block therapy,

stop, Drapalmice and...

Yeah.

And then he was, you know,

but he did really well as far as symptoms for patho-ear

before we find out the diagnosis of Mac,

which was interesting.

Yeah, I'm interested in it from a pro-longevity standpoint.

I don't know that I have enough hard evidence

to trust it.

And no one's really,

there's no unison on the dosing

and clearly you can't do it long-term

and you have to cycle it.

But it's intriguing to me.

It's an inhibitor of the mTOR pathway, right?

My medallion target, Drapalmicein.

I'll tell you what I love for all these patients.

And I think you do, too, LDN.

Outload is now check zone.

I mean, it's like a game changer.

It's doing a little bit of everything

for every one of the things that we've talked about

on these podcasts.

And something I've figured out in truth

with you in my supplement,

we might maybe we'll debate this or discuss it,

but when country have got approved by the FDA to treat obesity,

which is well, well, buterin,

and now track zone,

I started with a lot of my patients,

hey, you know, I'm gonna have weight issues.

Let's try going from four and a half milligrams,

let us know track zone to eight to 16 milligrams

once or twice a day,

because that's the weight loss dose.

I've had a subset of these patients,

maybe 25 to 30% of people who got improved pain

and improved inflammatory response,

like eight or nine milligrams or twice a day dosing.

I haven't seen anything amazing for the weight loss aspect,

but I've actually seen a better response.

And this is something I kind of intuitively decided to try

because the drug is,

it's so safe we're taking a narcan now

and putting it in bathrooms and several in the country.

It's so safe and it's so effective

and there's very little side effects.

And the one thing that I had questions about

and this was for myself,

including because it's something I've taken for a long time,

it was instrumental in helping with my auto immunity,

pain, mass cell stuff,

was what's the long term safety?

I think long term safety is sort of fine.

It's, does it lose its efficacy over time?

Should you cycle it in place?

And the answer is yes.

And this is what I've recently learned.

And it's as simple as maybe just holding it

for the first three days of the month.

Days one, two, three of each month don't take it

and then get right back on it.

I think that that's really what we should do.

And it makes sense if you understand

the concept of tacky flaxis,

receptors downregulated over time,

things lose their efficacy.

It's kind of why we do a hormone holiday

when we do BHRT.

The whole point is keep things sharp,

keep them ready to work and rock and roll.

And that's a new piece of information

that's literally this past year.

And Smith is who I learned that for 100%.

Yeah, she's one of the advisors for the LDN Trust,

which is a resource.

I learned that from her as well actually.

Yeah, it's just cool like that.

XER doc, we guys stick together.

I know, she's XER, yeah.

She was Detroit and she was in the ER in Detroit, Michigan.

That's lies hardcore.

Yeah, we were at Chicago for a while here in Chicago,

which one's more?

I don't know.

And I was in the South side of Chicago,

so I would left swap war stories with her.

That's fine.

Yeah.

So let's transition a little bit.

Mass saw again, we talked about another podcast.

I want to end this whole mystery illness thing

with the last topic that it's like many things I've done

when I first started this journey.

I'll tell myself, I am not going to do mold.

It's too complicated.

Don't want to mess with it.

And then obviously you'll laugh it.

And then it's like, I can't help my patients

unless I've figured out.

And is this everywhere?

And then, because I was going to New Orleans,

because you know, and then all of a sudden,

you get the point and like tick point illnesses,

you're like, I guess I have to learn how to do that as well.

And then all of a sudden, is this like everywhere?

Where I've realized with my patients

is the sticking points, you work through things,

you've got to gut issues, sleep issues, stress issue.

Let's work on sears, mass cell, connective tissues,

the bigger the thing, it connects all this stuff together.

But I realize that I work with patients over years,

as you do as well.

And you get to a point where they're, you've done all the things

and they're still stuck.

They're of 60%, 80% and better.

Your wash and repeat didn't line pop up again.

No, did we really clean your house?

No, and you do that two, three times.

And what I've come to over this last couple of years

is that sticking point with people

after they work through these things,

is the nervous system.

Yeah.

Actually, the person who introduced this to me

was Andy Heyman, with the whole idea

that all of our service patients

develop a TBI type phenomena,

traumatic brain injury type phenomena,

a chemically infection.

But you're going to call it, like the brain genes

get activated similar to a traumatic brain injury.

And then through Neil Nath,

Nathan Newton, trained with him,

that's a big part of what he does is these people get

in these, well, even a cell danger response,

Dr. Navios work.

Part of that stuff is at chemicals and toxins,

but it's also nervous system.

So all of a sudden, now I'm kind of transitioning my career

from a lot of my patients where it's like,

is your nervous system healthy?

Do you have some big T trauma, physical,

sexual, emotional juice, a little T trauma?

And that could just be your caregiver

for a kid with special needs.

Yeah.

And a stress for relationship,

having a narcissist in your family.

Yeah.

By a thousand cuts, about a thousand cuts, yeah.

Or it could be your own personal chronic health issue.

So my thesis is my new thing,

well, I'm working through now with patients,

is a little bit kindling, bring me wiring,

a dynamic neural retraining,

like whatever you want to term for it,

we're polyvagal theory, which, you know,

Dr. Pythras, I think I was the guy,

talked about that like in the early 80s,

is when that book was written.

So we just thought about that.

It's absolutely where our patients get stuck.

It's the most common reason for a patient

in my practice to hit a wall.

If we're making progress and it's rarely linear.

So A, you have to kind of keep that in mind

when you're practicing medicine like this,

especially in complicated patients,

especially when treating mysterious illnesses.

It's rarely linear.

It's a lot of ups and downs.

You just got to keep your feet on the ground

and keep moving forward to the best your ability.

Sometimes you take a step back and that's okay.

You hold that space, you regroup,

you move forward again.

But when they get stuck in the mud

or they start stuck in the mud,

there's an impasse to almost everything we're trying.

It's not them.

They wouldn't be here if they didn't want to get better.

It's the limbic system.

It's the neurovascular system.

It's the central nervous system.

It's that stuckness that you have to then work through.

The problem is that that's a lot of work

that they have to do because it's personal work.

But we clearly can help and point them in the right direction,

give them modalities of intervention,

point them towards a practitioner

who's better skilled than me to handle it

if it's neurobiopheed back or EMDR or something like that.

But this is a very common phenomenon

and probably that tie that binds to many

if not all of my multiple chemical sensitive patients,

my telepatients, my MCAS patients.

I personally think, and this includes me

as a former source patient,

that every source patient has some degree of limbic dysfunction

just from having that disease and the fear of,

am I ever going to get better?

Is every house going to poison me?

Is my home ever going to be where it needs to be?

Can I go anywhere?

Can I get my life back?

How is that not traumatic?

Of course it is, so that is a problem

that I think is ubiquitous.

And I know that you recognize this.

You've talked about this early on

because I remember you used to bring it up

when we were talking about things

and I just kind of washed over me

because I was still trying to learn some of this complicated

nuances of how to treat these illnesses.

And you were talking about limbic stuff

and you put together this amazing template

that I share with patients all the time.

And it's just like overwhelming to someone who's already

overwhelmed and so I just have to disclaimer it.

Like, I don't expect you to do all of these.

This is just a list of things I want you to look over,

see what resonates with you, start low and go slow

and work towards a goal.

They find little things that work,

whether it's breath work or vagal retraining

or they go see a practitioner or they read

the body keeps the score with whatever,

but it has to be done.

Otherwise they're not going to get unstuck.

And as it gets done, you kind of see this light

and then they start to tolerate things.

Like couldn't tolerate anything,

now can tolerate a little bit,

now can tolerate a little bit more.

Now they feel so good, they want to be,

they're like, what can we get compounded?

What can you inject me with?

What can you confuse me?

And it's just like, who are you?

And they're better, they're getting better.

If there's a parent time where else

you get the new patient coming in,

they're like the patient who I can't,

I literally can't drink water

because sometimes I react with that.

Yeah, yeah, I've had this.

You take any supplements.

I mean, three foods, I mean like lamb and pear, right?

Yeah.

And it's like, well, of course you're not going to take any

medications or things.

And so there's a bunch of those that start

doing laser meridian therapy with,

which is a, it's an interesting acupuncture-based therapy

that I had amazing results with calming people's nervous

system down over three to six months.

And then getting into tolerating food.

And fortunately, the practitioner

I was doing it literally.

Yeah, he passed away.

Some patients have done better with acupuncture,

but then some people can't tolerate.

I've had some people do well with electrical stimulation.

The new EMDR tapping, smack work, parts work,

a bunch of different things, grounding, the PEMF.

Yeah, I mean, you've,

tell us about how the house PEMF worked for you.

Right.

It's phenomenal.

I used it for two different reasons.

One, acute pain, I back issues,

and it was a game changer for that,

combined with some physical therapy.

And then I used it for calming.

And it's improved my sleep exponentially.

I'm going to make a statement.

You can tell me if you agree, disagree,

you thought about this.

That seems to be your soup to your,

and tell me if you agree or disagree.

Which is, when did you care about my opinion?

I'm just kidding.

Who's the people that dig us fighting about, you know?

I have one of my patients that I would fight more.

Well, he was too in agreement with each other.

He was funny because he was saying,

I really appreciate your banter back and forth

because it's like,

since he pokes you a little bit

and you poke him a little bit back.

And it's, you know, people like it.

I just got back from a conference in Phoenix Arizona

and ran into a bunch of, you know,

it's a pretty high level business entrepreneur type

and one of the guys there,

specializes in paying the psychologist.

And he wrote a book about this, actually,

that pretty much all chronic pain

has a nervous system component to a psychic.

He, if he takes it a little bit to, like,

that it's all treatable by meditation,

but the question is, you know,

with somebody's like, chronic pain,

what part of your pain do you think is related to stress?

And I don't want to,

I want you to stress been a bigger way,

not like, you know,

I'm stressed because life is hard,

but I'm struggling,

nervous system stress, illness stress,

whatever you want to call that,

where your nervous system is dysregulated.

Because that's where, if you like,

the PMF has been really helpful for a lot of my patients.

With their related and related pain,

so I don't know me,

I'm nervous system dysregulation.

Yeah, I think a large portion of it.

I just think it's hard for the individual to recognize that.

It's hard to pinpoint it to that

because we get really good at tolerating things

or masking things.

Everybody wears masks.

Everybody changes their set point of tolerance

or intolerance.

And it's just like,

to what degree is my psychological, emotional, physical,

stress affecting pain?

I don't know how you quantify that,

but the reality is that something

that's energetically balancing,

making you feel better, clearly speaks to that,

in my opinion,

something that's resetting the system,

something that's unblocking that,

which is blocked or opening up a pathway

that needs to be opened,

that to me is where magical healing can happen.

And it's a little woo-woo,

and it's not as palatable for some people,

but it's effective.

I see it happen all the time.

It's just, you know,

you have to start thinking about that kind of stuff

when all the other things that you're doing aren't working.

It's like, is this a me thing?

Is this a them thing?

Or is this a neither?

And we're just stuck

because of the approach that we're taking.

I think the whole Dr. Robert Navier's cell danger response

is a really interesting thing

because it's mitochondrial dysfunction.

That affects cell cycling

so you get these SNES and cells,

but ultimately the nervous system,

once in a safe place will signal the mitochondria.

Okay, yeah.

Go back to business as usual

because you're now in a safe place again.

And this is a cell cycle, right?

So it's a cell cycle,

the danger response

that mitochondrial cell danger response

that he's talking about is cell cycle arrest.

So the cell goes through these cycles.

This is a point at which it literally stops

waiting for the body to get better

to then start up again.

And so clearly there has to be a signal there

and there has to be.

So, mystery illnesses.

We've seen it all the time,

through everywhere,

but they can't be treated.

There's hope.

You just have to get an individualized program

work with a practitioner who will listen to you

who has the tools in their toolkit

to help you along.

Ultimately, I tell a lot of patients,

I talk about in my book,

I'm curable from who's the nervous system.

Yeah, nice.

Yeah, because that's it.

By it, yeah.

Is that you have to put your own,

I used to phrase a fellowship of the ring, right?

It's like a photo,

and maybe I'm aging myself but going to

no way, man.

Going to mordor the ring.

It's like, he doesn't do it by himself.

He has, even so wrong,

the white wizard,

he becomes like the bad guy.

Even he had a purpose

in getting photo ligolas.

You need, you need same wives,

which I think is the here as a story.

Yeah.

He's like the Samilized Gange.

Yeah, he's the unassuming guy

who's just always there

who basically at the end

is literally carrying Mr. Frodo to the top.

And even though Gollum was needed

to bear very in to make it happen,

so it's one of the things where

people need their fellowship of the ring, their support,

because it's hard to do on your own,

killing your sick.

And so I would just encourage people

to get their resources, get educated.

We have a bunch of stuff on our website.

We have our connected health program,

which allows people anywhere in the country

to kind of start to healing pathway.

We have a brick and mortar people come to.

So we try to make no matter where someone's at

on their healing journey,

we try to get people resources

to meet them wherever they're at.

Yeah, wherever they're on their journey.

So they can find their village.

Yeah, so, and that's kind of,

that's what we do.

Yeah.

With that.

Thanks once again.

Take care, we'll talk to you soon.

See ya.

My daughter was never supposed to walk talk or crawl.

And today, at 19, she's thriving.

And guess what, we ignored every single thing

the specialist told us to do.

Hi, I'm Dr. Aaron Hartman,

and I wrote uncurable from hopeless diagnosis

to define all odds,

so you don't have to navigate this alone.

In it, we share the secrets that she and thousands

of my patients have used.

Grab the book or audible wherever books are sold,

or you can find it in the link below.