who is palantir, and why are they involved with ICE?

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Palette here is here to disrupt and make

our institutions we partner with the very best in the world.

And when it's necessary to scare enemies

and on occasion kill them.

That was a recording from 2024 of Alex Carp,

who's the CEO of a tech company called Palantir.

And we'll come back to that clip later.

But just who are these enemies that his company wants

to scare and on occasion kill?

And also, what are the institutions

that Palantir is partnering with to make that happen?

That last question has a lot of answers.

But the most infamous one right now

would be immigration and customs enforcement.

Better known is ICE.

ICE has a lot of new toys under the recent Trump administration.

But the biggest tools that I've been paying attention to

is how Palantir is working with ICE

in the federal government to create new apps and systems

to track people.

Mechanicali is a senior politics writer at Wired.

And recently, she's been reporting on ICE's activity.

And in particular, how is being powered by technology

from Palantir?

So there's the work itself that Palantir is doing.

And then the pressure inside among people

who maybe work on defense contracts

or work on more commercial things that are like,

oh, the tool I'm building is doing this too.

I don't like this and like demanding more information.

Palantir has been around since the early 2000s

and they used to keep their work pretty quiet.

But they're starting to flex a lot more publicly.

Still, most people don't know what they actually do.

Even inside the company, their own employees

seem to not always know what's actually going on.

Palantir is such a secretive company

to begin with that the ICE work has been, you know,

an additional layer of secrecy as well.

So that's what this episode is about.

Some of Mechanist's new reporting in Wired

has revealed more about Palantir than we ever knew before.

I'm afraid.

I'm afraid.

When kaleidoscope and Ihar podcast, this is Kill Switch.

I'm Dexter Thomas.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

I think it's only recently that some of the wider public

become even aware of the company Palantir, specifically in connection to ice

raids and things like that. What even is Palantir? Yeah, Palantir. If you're unfamiliar with the

company, you might be familiar with the name because if you can remember the

Palantiri and the Lord of the Rings is a ball in all-seeing eye that actually in

the end corrupts the people who use it. Interesting tie in there. But it's a

company founded by Peter Teal and this guy named Joe Lonstail. There are these

kind of more right-wing figures in Silicon Valley and the company was founded

in the 2000s during the Bush administration and kind of the expansion of the

surveillance state that we saw during the Iraq war and the creation of Homeland

Security kind of comes of this period. And so Palantir has been working with

government for a very long time but then also working in the commercial space as

well. Peter Teal has said that his concept for Palantir was to see if he could

use PayPal's fraud detection software to stop terrorists attacks. It took a

while to really get off the ground but Palantir got themselves a contract with

the US Department of Defense and they've been working with the US Army since 2008.

Some of that work is public. For example, they've announced that they

developed drone navigation systems for the military but a lot about the

company is kept secret. If you Google or you search for Palantir this does not

a whole lot of information. If you look at their YouTube account for example their

YouTube channel description just says software that dominates. Well, I don't know

what I'm supposed to take from that. Right? Like what do they do? That is such a

mystery to so many people but a lot of what Palantir creates for customers is

based off of what it calls its foundry software which is kind of an extra

powerful database that you can run specific programs on top of and is able

essentially to combine data sources from a whole variety of different places and

help people sort and search through them more effectively. And so we can see why

you know an agency like ICE would want something like that trying to find

information about addresses of people, potential undocumented immigrants, where

they are located, their family members. And so what Palantir does really well and

why we see it expand across government but also in the commercial sector as

well is that it's able to connect to a lot of things, sort them and that's

really the power. Yeah, I've seen it said that when somebody hires Palantir

contracts Palantir, it's not like they're buying a tool. It's like they

incorporate Palantir into the DNA of that organization. This is that sound like

good characterization of how it works. Yeah, Palantir is one of the first

companies to come up with the idea of what is now kind of moving its way across

the industry as the forward deployed engineer, the FDE. And that is a role

where they have a team of engineers who often are younger on the younger side

coming out of college and they place them with clients. So say ICE or a hospital

system or something like that. And so they give them the tool, the foundry

tool, but then they also provide them with the labor and the expertise with the

folks who are trained in it to say, you have this issue. Here's how we can solve

it and build, you know, a program on top of foundry or edit foundry in a

specific way to make whatever job you're doing, you know, make it easier and

simplify it for you. And that's really the power in the company and why people

buy it. The tool is kind of a basic database sorting data storage system,

but it's having that expertise, which can be in house that makes it so powerful

in the end. Right. So I know last April, y'all at wire reported on a $30

million contract by ICE to Palantir. Mm hmm. First off, that's a lot of

money. But what is this contract in tail? Yeah. So that was the beginning of

something called immigration OS, OS, of course, standing for operating

system. Okay, yeah, like Windows or Mac OS, okay? Exactly. And so

immigration OS to me reads more like an ecosystem that Palantir is creating

for ICE and DHS. And in that ecosystem are a variety of tools. The first one

that we really kind of had more of an idea of was it's kind of logistics

and tracking arm of this ecosystem, which was focused on tracking self

deportations. So the beginning of the administration, there was a push for

this like new app that came out called CBP home, so Customs and Border Patrol

home, which allows people living within the borders who are undocumented to

say, hey, I'll leave. And then they'll self deport. And so Palantir was

brought in to help track those self deportations. And so that work is

kind of grown into the bigger kind of ecosystem project that we're starting

to pull more details out of now. Yeah, the concept of something called

immigration OS is yeah, first off kind of nuts to me also just sound so

Palantir when you think about it. What do you mean? It's so you have a problem

immigration. Here is the software to fix it, right? It just feels like so

on par with how they market themselves. And so what we've seen from that

original kind of self deportation function is what they've been doing on

more targeted tracking. According to Wires reporting, immigration OS

involves three core functions. First, there's the self deportation

tracking that McKenna just mentioned. And then there's targeting and

enforcement prioritization. That one is supposed to streamline the quote

selection and apprehension operations of illegal aliens in quote. And

lastly, there's something called immigration life cycle process, which is

basically making what they call deportation logistics more efficient.

So what exactly is the technology that's making this immigration OS work?

Well, we don't know, but we do know that Palantir has helped ice build out

databases of information to help track down undocumented people in the US.

So there's a database, I think called investigative case

management that I think Palantir created this ice is using it. What do

we know about this? Yeah, I mean, we don't know a lot about it. These

things are kept pretty quiet. To me, it kind of feels like it's just where

a lot of data is stored when it comes to the type of targets that ice or

DHS is tracking. Where do they get all this data? From DHS, from US

CIS, people who enter the border oftentimes, I mean, always are required

to hand over a lot of data about themselves. And that's given to DHS.

What sort of data are we talking about here? Height weight, yeah,

identifiable things like that name, family, these kinds of things. But

what we've seen over the last year is this demand for even more data than

what has been traditionally collected at the border. We've seen people

from Doge and then also just government officials being asked to hand over

data from the Social Security Administration. So that's like a Social

Security number address anything there. And then also the IRS. And I

think the IRS is a really important agency when it comes to connecting

data. Because a lot of times, even if you are a undocumented immigrant,

you file taxes. And every year when you file a W2 or whatever tax

file, they often, IRS often is one of the agencies that has the most up to

date data on where you live. Because you have to file that whenever you

start a new job. And so I mean, for the last year, what we've seen is

that DHS thinks that the data that it has is maybe insufficient for the

mission that it has under Trump, too. And we've seen this kind of

pressure for other agencies to hand over what could be more accurate and

sensitive data.

To be clear here, using data from the IRS from Social Security and from

other parts of the government to track immigration is not allowed.

It violates privacy rules meant to protect taxpayer data. And yet in

February, the IRS said in a court filing that it had erroneously shared

data for thousands of taxpayers with DHS. McKinnon's article notes that

quote, pulling data from outside sources, whether that be from other agencies

or commercially available third party data would expand DHS's ability to

surveil migrants and citizens alike. Now, according to its internal wiki

page, Palantir says that it quote, does not in any way enable ice

personnel to have direct or unfettered access to third agency databases or

data sets outside of those shared for specific operational purposes

within the bounds of established data sharing agreements. But Palantir

also says that quote, we do not take the position of policing the use of our

platform for every workflow. So we don't know exactly what data ice is using

or how they're using it. But there's a video that's gone viral recently

that appears to show an ice officer referencing some kind of database.

So there's a ice agent who is taking images of what looks like an

observer's vehicle. And she asked him, it's like, what are you doing?

Why are you taking these images?

Is that illegal to record?

Yeah, that's what we're doing. Yeah, why are you taking my information down?

Because we have a nice little database. Oh, good.

Consider domestic terrorists.

We're videojumping you. Are you crazy?

Wired asked Palantir if their software powered the database that you just

heard referenced in that video. Palantir did not respond.

There has not been a lot of information that has come out about like what

that database is, who operates it, what kind of data they're collecting and why

earlier in February, there was a hearing with home and security officials in

Congress. And one of the officials just straight up said, we don't have this

database. Okay, then why is this agent in the field trying to collect

information for it?

Finding out information about the database is proved challenging, but

McKenna and other reporters have managed to uncover some sense of what

Palantir is developing for ice. And the capabilities of that go beyond

anything you might expect. We're getting into that after the break.

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A lot of Palantir's Immigration OS work has been kept vague, but there are some

specific tools made by Palantir that we do know that ICE is using.

One of these is called Elite, which stands for Enhanced Leads Identification

and Targeting for Enforcement. What has been kind of the most controversial thing

that Palantir has been doing is developing this tool called Elite, which

is an app that I think at least a couple hundred

agents are using on the ground. Basically, it's like any map app

you have on your phone, open it up, and then it would like instead of populating,

I don't know, searching for nearby restaurants or coffee shops like

you and me probably do. It instead populates dense areas of what they

suspect to be undocumented immigrants based on data that

the agency has. So then they can search in specific areas trying to make

apprehensions. And that is probably the most

detail that we have, like that product specifically because of 404 media

and other reporting. 404 media reported on Elite earlier this year, and it's the

most information we have to date on Palantir's work with ICE.

According to their reporting, Elite can populate a map with potential targets

for deportation. It can even bring up a dossier for each individual and provide

a confidence score on their listed address. And this data is pulled from

sources including the Department of Health and Human Services.

But beyond all this direct work with ICE, McKinnis also found that Palantir

starting to work with another immigration agency, one that handles

immigration benefits for people who immigrate lawfully, US customs and

immigration services, or USCIS. And they're working with USCIS on a pilot

defined fraudulent benefits submissions from folks who are trying to become

citizens in this country. And if you'll remember from the last couple

months, fraud has really been used as kind of the

justification for ICE searches. There was an surely video in Minneapolis,

this right wing YouTuber knocking on doors asking to see the children at child

care centers. And when that video got published, you got boosted by Elon Musk,

got boosted by JD Vance, it got boosted by so many people.

And then just like a week and a half, two weeks later,

thousands of ICE agents in Minneapolis. And we know exactly what happened

after that. Exactly. And so now it seems at least

Palantir is trying to get into that fraud part of immigration as well.

It's just a wild thing to be, you know, having to compare in my head right now

because those things should be totally separate things. But when I talk to a

senior White House official about this earlier, about how like fraud and

immigration are cussed together, what they told me was, well, if they're

illegals, they're going to get deported. If alleles are during fraud,

they're getting deported. And that's kind of the thinking from like the higher

levels of the White House, at least. Palantir has their hands in a lot of

different aspects of the government. And their involvement only seems to be

growing. According to reporting from the Hill, in the last year alone, they got

over $900 million in federal contracts. From my reporting recently,

it does seem that Palantir is eager to expand those contracts.

These past couple of months have been primarily what the company has referred to

as pilot periods to kind of test out how the relationship works,

what tools they're able to do. And if the administration wants to

expand those contracts later on. And so right now we're kind of coming towards

the end of this pilot period. And we'll get to see whether or not Palantir

is renewed for another contract or their power gets expanded in the government.

What is the sense right now? Is this going to be renewed? Are they going to get

more money for this? I think so. It seems like the company is really eager.

And it seems to be from court documents that we've seen about

ICE agents using this. It's been a valuable tool for them.

And it's been such a priority among senior leadership of Palantir.

We saw CEO Alex Carp at the deal books on New York Times,

deal books on it last year, who's like, we're going to do this work.

It's part of us in building Western power and all this kind of

often intro level to philosophy, course thinking that Alex Carp always

is like talking about in public. I do believe that America

and strong individuals, realistic individuals,

recognize you are largely on your own. And the more you recognize that,

the better we will be as a society in the world.

And that's why I'm very skeptical of all these international,

whatever. It's all a way of curtailing and constraining the obvious fact

that some cultures are superior. We live in the superior culture as culture

that defends our right to argue, defends our right to back that up with arms,

defends our right to privacy. So the first, second, and fourth amendment,

I believe Palantir and I are fully aligned with the first, second, and fourth amendment.

We are fighting for what we believe and we're putting in a product

to give the people that agree with us a superior position.

But that's like part of the vision of the company, right?

And he sees immigration enforcement as that kind of building and

maintaining Western power. However, he kind of vaguely defines it.

I care about two issues. I care about immigration

and re-establishing the deterrent capacity of America without being a colonial sneocon view.

And on those two issues, those two issues, this president has performed.

And those are the two issues I care about.

Again, that's Palantir CEO Alex Carp at the Dealbook Summit,

defending why he's supportive of Trump. But he didn't always feel that way.

I've had the rare opportunity to meet Trump.

Here he is in a recorded staff meeting back in 2015 that leaked to BuzzFeed a couple

years later, which I turned down. I mean, this is off the record.

But I don't respect nothing about the dude.

You could almost make up someone that I find.

I know it's hard to make up someone I find less appealing.

In that same video, Alex Carp said that Trump's deportation plan,

quote, makes no sense. And quote, is bringing up the worst

the society can bring up. But that was then.

Things have obviously changed.

Recently, Alex Carp did a pre-recorded conversation.

It was on a Friday in early February.

And in that call, Carp says that they're really not in the business of changing their policies

per each administration.

And then he kind of harkens back to the speech that Obama made in like 2014 where he says,

we are a nation of immigrants and we are also a nation of laws.

And so to Palantir, or at least senior leadership of Palantir,

what they do is a function of helping enforce laws on the books.

And I think their understanding, right, is that we are part of the good guys here

removing criminals from our country.

That's how senior leadership often sees it.

But I don't know if that's, you know, how everyone at least in the company sees it.

After the break, Palantir's employees start asking questions about what it is exactly they're doing.

And the company's Slack channel starts getting heated.

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As the presence of ICE has intensified over the past several months,

inside Palantir, employees are starting to question their company's involvement.

And apparently when it comes to what Palantir is actually doing with ICE,

these employees know almost as little as the public does.

Right now, just from the reporting that I've done so far,

there's been a little bit more internal pressure from workers at the company

who are concerned about these capabilities and want more information.

The transparency within the company, right, for people who work for Palantir,

has it been great, like from workers that I've spoken to,

they really only found out information about what the company is doing with ICE

by public reporting.

Really?

Yeah.

And recently in the call that I was referencing earlier,

Karp, at the end, he kind of says, if you want more intimate details on what we're doing,

you'll need to sign an NDA, and then we're happy to share them with you.

So that's kind of the level.

That this information is being withheld inside the company.

And there's been more and more pressure amongst workers for a little bit more information.

All this kind of blew up after the tragic shooting and killing of Alex Prety in January,

where as soon as we started saying, white Americans,

getting shot in the streets, the company internally kind of blew up.

And we're like, are we involved with this?

Like, how are we involved?

Like, can we do anything to stop this?

Alex Prety's death seemed to be a turning point for a lot of employees at Palantir.

Immediately afterwards, their internal slack blew up with messages from around the organization.

It seems like there had been some kind of discussions happening

in these channels prior, but that had really kind of lit up on the day Alex Prety was killed.

So what we're seeing immediately in these slack channels and people chatting is,

there's like one person specifically saying that the involvement with ICE has been swept

under the rug, under this current administration, and there need a better understanding of the

involvement. And then someone says that they have seen stories of folks rounded up who were

seeking asylum with no order to leave the country, no criminal record, and consistently

checked in with authorities, no reason to be rounded up.

And this is like how opaque the company has even been to its own workers,

that a worker can see something like this happening.

And then they're asking the question here in this chat and saying, surely we aren't helping

to do that. So that's kind of how opaque and how kind of like big of a boogie man Palantir

has become in this space, right? Because even internally at this point, workers are associating

anything that happens from ICE with possibly something that their own employer,

their colleagues, you know, maybe in some other department are working on.

You know, people ask more detailed questions too about how Foundry Palantir's kind of

premier software is used in asking, you know, we're here. We have our team of folks who are working

on this with ICE, right? And we kind of have a contract and we have stipulations on how the

product is supposed to be used. But is there anything that we can do to police bad behavior?

What if they decided to take data from IRS or data from SSA and put it into Foundry?

You know, the workers are basically saying we work really hard to empower clients to make as many

changes as possible to the software to fit what it is that they want to do. Well, what if fixing

it is illegal, you know, and empowers these kinds of illegal apprehensions, killings, is there

anything we can do? And one of the members of kind of senior executive leadership responds and

is like, yeah, we kind of just have to rely on the courts in this case. There really isn't a lot of

stuff that we can do. So you mean like, well, we gave them this tool. If they decide to use it for

some illegal purpose, that's kind of on them. We sold them a tool. That's it. Yeah, there's

been some discussion on that and like kind of being like, well, this is something that the courts

would have to figure out and in which to play out in that way. And then on that kind of Friday call

that Alex Carpet prerecorded and sent to staffers, he kind of backed away from that question. And

now this wasn't a live thing. So I'm just kind of taking questions that were sent in the slack and

seeing if he would answer them in this call. And surprise he didn't really. But one thing that he did

say was that people and clients and companies who are trying to break the law don't buy palliatures

products because they're too good essentially. And it would be a lot easier to trace malfeasance

because of how good foundry is good as in good versus evil or good as in like, well made software.

Well made software. Okay. So the software is so good that you couldn't necessarily do anything

illegal because there would be all of these audit logs tracing what it is that you've done. So

that's his argument. I mean, you could do it. They just find you. But then if the person who's

supposed to punish you when they found out that you did something I supposed to do doesn't want to

punish you. Yeah. Then you could do the thing that you're not able to do. Quote. But just what we've

seen the Trump administration do for the last year, especially on immigration enforcement, which

is just show up and enforce and you know, don't wait on the courts, which I think is a concern. A

lot of folks inside are saying too, because you know, from the materials that I've seen, a lot of

folks inside Poundary don't trust the government right now. They don't trust the story that's

coming from the Trump administration. And how do you supply a tool to an untrustworthy

institution, right? Especially with so much power. You know, this is still like an ongoing

discussion that's being had there. So we haven't really seen a meaningful response from leadership

just yet. So I don't know if you've seen this, but fairly recently, Alex Carp told CNBC that

I'm quoting here, if you were critical of ice, you should be out there protesting for more

palantir. And then he said, our product actually in its core requires people to conform with

fourth amendment data protections from your reporting from what you've seen. Do you think there's

an audience of people who will hear what he says and says, you know what? You're right.

I'm anti ice. I want more palantir. Like, is that a reasonable request from the CEO that people

might actually pick up and take seriously? Or is my man just totally out of touch? He's, I think

he's pretty out of touch here. And if he's talking to CNBC, you know, when he's saying that, I think

I don't know if he's really trying to talk to the critics of the company more than he's trying

to talk to investors. So that is actually something I wanted to talk about because most of the

reporting I see about palantir is about stocks. It's about the stock price. I mean, their stock price

is exploded. People are making incredible amounts of money on it. Like, if you type into Google

Palantir, the suggested searches are like Palantir stock, Palantir stock price, the subreddit.

It is not about their technology. It's like game stop. It's about stock, go up,

stock, go down. I made money. I lost money. Yeah. Well, I, I think that is such an important

thing to bring up because so much of Palantir and I hear a lot of criticism. Like, it's because

the company isn't so transparent. It's really hard to understand the real power of its products.

Right. I think the real power is those four deployed engineers, but I really don't know if the

software does anything all that crazy, you know, that something like a Salesforce maybe or a Google

or Amazon could provide for the government, right? I think it's more so. So much of what Palantir

makes money off of is the story it tells, which I think is easier to bet on as a retail investor.

And I think the company is really kind of buoyed by the story about how it's

maintaining Western power and is willing to do all of these things. The key to Palantir really

is the storytelling aspect from carp and leadership. That's really interesting. You say that because

I feel like the storytelling aspect works on two fronts, right? There's one to the retail investors

who people like, yo, I don't care what I'm investing in. If it makes me money personally,

we're good. Forget everybody else. But then also, you know, if you're doing things like what

carp says that the company can do like preventing a terrorist attack, like, hey, listen,

if you don't want terrorism by our stuff and we'll prevent it, there's a lot of very eager

ears for that in the administration. Basically what I'm saying is, you know, in some ways,

this feels like another run of the Patriot Act, another run of post 9-11, hey, there's something

out there that you've got to be scared of. I can help prevent that and then other people see that

and we'll shoot if they believe it. I can make money off of that belief. Yep. I mean, Palantir

really is kind of filling a void in that kind of space. You know, the government wants to know what

it's buying, wants to know if there's buy in from the vendor to do what it is that it wants to do

and Palantir really sets that tone from the get go and all of it's advertising in the way that

carp talks. Yeah. I mean, I think the opening line of Alex Carp's book is something like

Silicon Valley has lost its way. Yeah. And then he goes on to say that all these programmers

they're out here just making stuff because they like making stuff, but we no longer have programmers

with a national purpose, which is incredible to hear somebody suggest that a programmer needs a

national purpose. Yeah, they need another. He's always kind of talking about like the Manhattan

project and like getting the smartest minds in the world to create something that has caused

untold amounts of pain and suffering like the atoning bomb. I also, I think maybe this is an

opportunity here for us to correct a little bit of misinformation. I don't know if you've seen

floating around that party full, the app is owned by Palantir. We should probably say very clearly

here that party full is not owned by Palantir. Party full was founded by some former Palantir

employees, but it's interesting to me that just regular people who want to throw parties

are now becoming aware or thinking about this company that otherwise they probably wouldn't

never think about. Yeah. 100%. You know, something that I've been tracking is that it's not even just

people with more left-wing views that are skeptical of Palantir. That's kind of always been the case,

but what we've seen more and more is folks on the right as well. Really? There's this comedian named

Tim Dylan who is oftentimes for the last couple months has been going after the company.

The level of power in terms of surveillance and data mining and the power over your life

has never been as or well in as it is now. That's what bothers a lot of people. That's what bothers

people about this Palantir thing. Yeah. Yeah. We were talking about that yesterday. Yeah.

The Palantir thing is very odd. That's comedian, Tim Dylan, talking to Joe Rogan. A lot of people feel

that this is the precursor to a social credit score, a digital kind of police state,

and that it's being done under the guise of security that you will be safer. Which is what the

Patriot Act was brought through with. Exactly right. It's always the case. It's always the case.

They always sneak it in like you got to be safe. Yeah. So we're seeing it even build on the right

as well. What do you think behind that? I think it comes down to surveillance. I also think that

there is kind of a because of how little Palantir as a company discusses the work that it does,

the actual work that it does, everything that we've discussed here. This is like what we know.

That is already pretty concerning. At least to a lot of experts that I talk to in civil rights

and civil liberties spaces. But even beyond that, if they are requiring you to sign an NDA for more

information on the work that they're doing with ICE, that isn't very reassuring.

And so because the company is just so opaque, it allows people to project all the concerns that

they have about surveillance, tech, about big tech power, and all of that I think onto Palantir.

Reinforcing the kind of Boogeyman image that is grown.

So let's go back to that clip that we played in the beginning.

So that clip wasn't some behind closed door secret meeting that leaked or something like that.

It was a public call with investors. Like we said, most civilians didn't know anything about

Palantir in 2024, and a lot of the people who did know about it just thought of it as another

company to invest in. So here's Palantir CEO Alex Carp in his own words.

Alex, as always, we have a lot of individual investors on the line. Is there anything you'd like

to say before we end the call? We're doing it. We're doing it. And I'm sure you're enjoying this

as much as I am. Every Palantirian, we are crushing it. Everyone else is listening.

We are dedicating our company. We have dedicated our company to the service of the West and the

United States of America. And we're super proud of the role we play, especially in places we

can't talk about. Palantir is here to disrupt and make the institutions we partner with

the very best in the world. And when it's necessary to scare enemies and on occasion kill them.

No commentary here from me other than just re-asking one of the questions that I asked in the

beginning. Who exactly are these enemies that we're talking about?

Thank you so much for listening to another episode Kill Switch. If you want to talk,

you can email us at KillSwitch at kaleidoscope.nyc or on Instagram or at KillSwitchPod.

And if you've been listening to the show for a bit and you like what you hear, maybe leave us

a review. It helps other people find the show which in turn helps us keep doing our thing.

And also, did you know that KillSwitch is on YouTube? The link for that and everything else

is in the show notes. KillSwitch is hosted by me, Dexter Thomas. It's produced by Sheena Ozaki,

Darlock Puts and Julia Nutter. A theme song is by me and Kyle Murdoch and Kyle also mixes the show.

From kaleidoscope, our executive producers are Osvalasian, Mangesh Hatikador and Kate Osborn.

From I Heart, our executive producers are Katrina Norville and Nikki Eator. Catch you next week.

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