Why Are So Many Couples in Unsatisfying Relationships?

0:00Welcome to Sex Talk with the Seagal Brothers, a weekly program designed to uncover and explain many of the issues and debates around the fascinating and wonderful world of sex and sexuality. Richard and Larry Seagal are recognized around the world as sex therapists, educators, counselors, and researchers. So tune in and discover some of the answers to your most burning questions, even the ones you didn't know you had. Thank you for joining us and welcome to Sex Talk. Hello, I am Dr. Larry Seagal. And I'm Dr. Richard Seagal. Good to see you, my brother. Indeed. Always. Thanks to everyone for joining us on this week's episode of Sex Talk with the Seagal Brothers. Yes, yes, thank you so much. We really appreciate that you are. We are always happy to have you with us, especially those of you listening in all parts of the world. Yes, indeed. And thank you so much to Brushwood Media Network for just helping to put us out there and give us this platform, our week to talk about all things related to sex and sexuality.

1:03Absolutely. And, of course, we do it for a living, so we do it every day. But, you know, as again, you have been fond of saying throughout the majority of your career. Yeah. Well, we have our one day a week to talk about sex. Yes. We should talk about sex every day. Indeed. Not enough. And that's one of the things, just like, well that's what we wanted to talk about tonight. Mm-hmm. Really, why so many people are in relationships that aren't really bad enough to leave, but not really good enough to enjoy. You know, that's really such an important framing. You know, it's not the way people met, you know, most people think about it because they think of generally either your relationship is good, or it's not good. Yeah, but like what sex therapist see every day is couples that are connected, I mean together, but not really connected or they're connected, you know, by the co-parents,

2:08right? Not really connected as lovers. Right. I mean, they're just kind of living together. They coexist. They co-parent. They manage the household, whatever they're in there, raising their kids, doing everything that, you know, they're supposed to be. Right? It's not abusive. It's not necessarily dysfunctional. It might not even be loveless. It's just kind of overall unsatisfying. Yeah. I mean, I think they become roommates. Right. Right. And I think they become so accepting of each other that they kind of stop being interested in each other. Yeah. You know, I think that's a big part of that whole sort of intimacy trap that people fall into. Yeah. And these, when couples co-exist and, you know, are just constantly busy running the household, raising the kids, paying the bills, occasionally having, you know, like checking off a box, duty sex, then... I mean, it could be enjoyable, but, you know, once in a while, whatever it happens.

3:12Yeah. Yeah. So, it's a relationship that can function great as a household, but still not really thrive as an intimate relationship. Right. And again, I think it's those things that we get comfortable with, right? You know, I think we get to a point where we want to do things with our partner, but we don't really want, you know, that kind of that hunger is something I think that loses in the thing that people actually succeed in attaining in their relationship. Yeah. And there's that adage everyone knows. Familiarity breeds contempt. Right. If it's too familiar, it kills the curiosity. Mm-hmm. And, you know, people in new relationships know those kind of questions. They ask those kind of questions all the time, right? What do you like? What turns you on? What do you want? What are you thinking? That's what people in the honeymoon energy are always asking each other that.

4:16Right. And it just stops. It just fades. Mm-hmm. Then after a while, it really becomes instead of, you know, what do you want? Hey, what are you thinking? It's like, what do you want to watch? Yeah. What do you want for dinner? What time are you coming home? Can you get some milk? Don't forget to pick up the kids. Exactly. They're communicating, but is it really connected? And is there any remaining curiosity? Mm-hmm. What? You know, like people sometimes joke about it. Yeah, we know each other's stories. We got nothing left to talk about. Well, that's, yeah, that is, that's a big part of it as well. And that, that, that, that creates new ones together. Well, yeah, exactly. I mean, that's, that's kind of a part of the punchline, you know, it's, but that's, that's what happens when people fall into that trap of just having conversations rather than really communicating. And that's one of the things I think that we also take for granted over the long term.

5:17And then that's where you do hear people complaining about like what you just said. It's, yeah, I mean, I, I, I, we ran out of things to talk about. Yeah. But the connection where, where espousing is what, what makes it difficult is that it requires vulnerability. Right. Right. That's one of the things we're going to have to talk about. Because to say things like, you know, I've been feeling distant lately, or I miss being touched, those are, you know, those can have snapback kind of reactions. That those are fearful questions. I haven't had to tell you what I really want. I want more sex, but I'm afraid you'll reject me. Those kind of things, right? That's a, it's a very different level of communication. Then don't forget to pick up the kids. Well, I mean, it really is because that's where I think the safety that people look to achieve in their relationships becomes the trap because they lose that edge.

6:17And, you know, there's, you want that deep feeling, you want that deep connection. You know, this is from the very beginning of a relationship. And I think it lasts throughout that that's a risk by opening up and revealing and saying, Hey, this is how I'm feeling. This is what I would like. You know, when you do this, I don't really enjoy that. I would enjoy it more if we did that. That's the risk. Right. Because the risk is now getting all of that rejected. Yeah. But how do you get the pay off without that? So that I think that's inherent in the communication. And we just, you know, we globally as people having relationships. That's just not something that people are taught. Well, I think that's why, you know, so common for, you know, so many couples therapists talk about this idea of making bids to one of the approaches, right? Keeping, keeping that curiosity and even little gestures.

7:18I've always told, especially guys, this, you can't, there can't be enough tiny gestures. Just little moments to have the course of a day or a night or even at work. That's a huge problem. This at a site, at a mine thing. I'm full, I'm really honest about it. How long does it really take to pull out your phone that you're probably on every 45 seconds throughout the day anyway and just shoot off a text that says, thinking about you. I can't wait to get home tonight. Right. Right. And that's that's a great bit or hey, just comes it with me or you want to go take a walk. That's not like, the morning you would fool around. No, but it's a bit for it's letting a partner know I want to stay connected. I want to be with you. Yeah. Yeah, I would like your attention. And even if behind it is like maybe a little bit of a kind of inner child, pay attention to me.

8:18I need you. Connect with me. There's, you know, kind of mature lovers ways to do that. Yep. And that's part again and expressing that in a way that will give you what you want is really what the key to that kind of communication is. Why don't we go ahead and take our first break? All right. So this, this, this idea of communication and how people are in a lot of ways afraid to do what is necessary to get what they crave. And that is intimacy. Yeah. And that's where that vulnerability comes in because people tend to lean towards self protection. Yeah. And that that fear of rejection makes people either stop making those bids or just ignore their partner's bids. Of course, you know, if like a partner is, is minimizing or putting off or even mocking their partner for making a bid.

9:23That's where things really start crumbling because people will stop asking. Right. Well, yeah. When couples come to therapy and say we don't talk anymore. That's because, you know, they both learn that reaching out doesn't work. So they stop reaching out. That's exactly right. And that's where again, I know my partner so well really is sort of a shot in the foot because very often, especially if there is a pattern that that person feels of rejection and ignoring their needs. You know, again, every time I reach out, I feel rejected. So I am not going to reach out anymore. And there's a thought process even when there's that desire say, Hey, you know, I want something that's automatically jumping to the conclusion in their own head that I'm just not going to get it. I'm going to be disappointed. So therefore don't even bother bringing it up. Yeah. And, you know, I think a real sad thing is all of this happens way, way before the obvious signs of like open contempt.

10:24And, you know, people that yes, they're absolutely hostile to each other. This is a long and city is process this disconnection. And it does take intention. Couples really have to be intentional in choosing to stay connected wanting to stay connected. Well, yeah, and a lot of that is safety. I mean, why stay connected to somebody that you don't feel safe being connected to. If you don't feel your needs are going to be met or irritated by all the time. Right. I mean, talk to your people, talk to your lovers, talk to each other with the tone in their voice that says, what the what the heck is wrong with you? Are you stupid? Why are you asking that? How could you say that? Right? Why? Where does that come from? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the resentment. And again, that's a terrible. That's probably that's that I'm I may start with frustration, but frustration. Disappointment.

11:25Immediately with disappointment. That eventually leads to resentment and that makes the content right. Yeah. Right. All right. So, you know, and you know, want to be clear, you know, talking about safety and and familiarity. You know, these can be really good things. But where they erode intimacy is when number one, we're projecting these negative expectations. Yeah. And where we stop trying to surprise each other. We stop trying to be attracted to each other. You've heard me. I've been saying this for years that for me, one of the greatest ironies in the world is that when people go out to meet complete strangers, at some event or something that they don't know any of these people, they'll never see them again. They just don't know what they're up and they give them their best. Yeah. But the people that we supposedly want to be with more than anything else, we stop being, you know,

12:30stop not only wanting to be attractive to them, but we also very often stop being attracted to them. Right. And a lot of that is, you know, once we feel that connection or we feel that bond form because sometimes, I mean, I'm trying to find a word. I can't find it right now, but the fun, fun word that there is that bond is a connection without a connection. Right. So they're sharing the space. Right. They're partners, but they're not really connecting emotionally and intimately. And a lot of that is again, take for granted, I know what they want. So I'll give it to her. That's also where sex becomes perfunctory. Yep. And for, and for a lot of people to give you a little trigger, that's where a lot of people, unfortunately, mostly women start, you know, talking about having to endure, you know, these aspects of the relationship.

13:31Why no, but God, anybody was in the sound of our voices. Please stop enduring sex. Sexes to be enjoyed. It's not a chore. It's bad enough to think about how many sex acts have the word job in it. Stop working so hard and play more. Right. So let's, let's kind of zero in on, we came up with this list before these five ingredients of reconnection. Let's talk about those. Right. Yeah. But you know, before we do that, I just want to make this one, I want to make this one point because you know, when we're talking about that process that leads up to content, I'm sorry, contempt and even hostility, you know, it does start with that withdrawing and beginning to shut down. And I think what a lot of people often do is once they, they may not even really recognize it or be aware of it. But once they start having that feeling that their partner is withdrawing from them or pulling away,

14:33that rather than thinking about maybe they're not getting what they need, maybe they're doing this because they're feeling bad. We, we default to they don't care about me. You're right. Right. And they just don't care about this relationship. They just don't care about anything. We don't see it or experience it from their perspective. Right. So that often then I think reinforces these lacks of connection that just get stronger and stronger. Yeah. I used to, I used to use the analogy with couples and I said that, you know, they, they have the sense that they're doing something together. They're walking together, but they don't realize that they've turned their backs on each other. And they're both taking steps moving forward, but they're just moving further, further away from each other, rather than closer to each other. Yeah. Here's a deep thought for you.

15:33This, that's often isn't the absence of caring, but what's what caring looks like after disappointment. Yeah. That's exactly, that's kind of the point that I was trying to make. Exactly. They're withdrawing because they do care. They want this to work, but they're just not getting that. Yeah. So let's just list these real quick and then talk about them. Okay. Okay. The ins for reconnection, attention, curiosity, vulnerability. We've talked about all three of those so far. Responsiveness, engagement, erotic and affectionate engagement. Yeah. That's again, it's one of those things that is, I can't get away for taking for granted. We don't think about these things. We stop. We start to assume and we again, just move further and further away from each other. Right? Because they're not really connect. And that's where I think the insidious part of that happens.

16:36And again, once we feel that withdrawing and once we start turning away from our partner, we're just each step we both take forward creates more and more distance. Yeah. And then the more distance that gets created, the more energy it takes to cross that distance. And that's when people really get tested. That's when the resentments and the hurt feelings really start to build. Yeah. And I think we'd both agree nothing in our lifetimes has ever fast tracked this process like electronic devices and everyone's hands and everyone's face. It's what's yeah. That's the worst killer of that attention is constantly being distracted. Yes. How about putting the phones down? Look at each other instead of your screens. Listen to each other. Notice each other. Right? And don't we have to say this therapist cliche of have a date night.

17:37No. Right? That's it. Right. That's barely time together. It's that presence that quality. That's that's the thing. Exactly. Right. It's not the second one of curiosity. Saddies take curious when you've been in a long-term relationship. That's that's so. I mean, that really is so important. You know, one of the one of the questions I used to like to ask couples about that, especially they've been there for a together for a long time. When was the last time you did something that surprised your partner? Yeah, vice versa. Well, it was the last time they really surprised you. Right. Or like you were saying before that learned to ask those tough questions. Right? Like here's some great ways to stay curious. What's something you've been thinking about lately? What's something you wish we did more often? Not up or you satisfied with our sex life. If you communicate with yes or no questions, you're going to have.

18:40Flood gets or no conversations. I mean, that is the most fundamental aspect of communication 101. Right. Open and in question for 20 years. Ask something that you really don't know the answer to. Right. Or or maybe that you think you do, but get validation asked for, you know, how to that. That's the thing about it as well. We we still tend to focus on avoiding problems, fixing problems. And not just how do you make what's already good better? Right. So even yes, even sexually asking questions like what makes you feel sexy? What makes you feel desirable? What makes you feel desired? Was there something you like to do? We've never talked about before. Those kind of questions. Absolutely. And even taking it again, taking that risk, right? That intimacy risk, you know, not like you said before, it's too common. And it's such a pervasive insecurity that so many people have.

19:42You know, do I satisfy you? Yeah. Am I a good lover unless they're ready for divorce? Of course, they're busy. I say yes to that. Well, I mean, we can do an entire episode on just for how many years have women have felt they had that fake orgasm. But I think, but rather than those kinds of questions, you know, to make it more of an intimate connection and make it more open ended. You know, what are what are the some of the things that I do for you that you really, what's your favorite thing? What is what is that? What do I do for you that you really like? Or what do I do for you that you want me to do differently? Yeah. That's these are risky questions. Yeah. But without the risk, we don't get the payoff. And that's where the safety factor in the relationship becomes more of a detriment, right? And in inhibition, that's why that vulnerability is so important.

20:42And in a intimate relationship, you have to be willing to reveal yourself what you actually want or what you fear. Yeah, exactly. So again, wanting to find things out to discover things about our partner. All right. So again, that tension, that intentional focus on presence, you know, with each other, the curiosity, wanting to discover things about each other, that vulnerability is so important as well. Because again, that's where the payoff is going to come. That's kind of the essence of intimacy, right? Being our authentic self, being who we really are, letting our partner see that. Right. But the, the another one of those factors, right? And the reason of reconnecting is responsiveness. Right. So say something about that. What do you mean? What do we mean by responsiveness?

21:43Well, you know, again, like we, we were talking earlier, the way long term couples start talking to each other, especially when that contempt is creeping in, right? Like, let's say one takes that big risk, makes themselves vulnerable, and says to their partner, you know, I've been thinking about, I'd like to try X, whatever it is, let's something, some sex act they haven't done before. There's ways that partner can respond, right? Like they might say, oh, I don't know if I'm comfortable with that. Right. That's the way of responding without, you know, we usually hear couples respond in ways like, oh, that's weird. Why would you want that? Or like I said before, what's the matter? What's the, what are you, what are you, what are you, a pervert? Right. That's the thing. That's the create shame in the partner and I'm not even going to ever ask again. Right. And sometimes it's even in a more veiled way, but it's still a gut punch where

22:46maybe something, you know, it's like bring something up like you just said and their part of the response is, where is that coming from? Yeah. What, what, what, what are you, why are you thinking about that? Yeah. So it's, it's very invalidating. It must be that from porn. Yeah. Exactly. That's not a lot too. Right. So I think it's, you know, it's also an important point to make when it comes to, you know, genuine responsiveness is, you know, being responsive isn't just about giving in and doing what your partner wants. It's also about learning how to and being able to communicate boundaries and the fact that, you know what, you may enjoy that, but I don't, but to be able to communicate that in a way that's not shaming and invalidating. And, you know, you don't have to like it. And I think that speaks to the biggest mistake people make in their relationships is they fault their partner for not being more like themselves. Yeah. Exactly. And so there's still so much denial about the changes that come with growing

23:47older and a long relationship. Right. Right. And the media and social media doesn't help that score either. No. And all of that really speaks to that sexual and erotic and affectionate disengagement. Well, how do we get folks to reengage? Right. Yes. And it comes right down to the theme of our show. Indeed. Indeed. So, you know, when we look at what are some of the things, some of the, the, the simple, and that's the thing. It's big difference between easy and simple. It's not easy because it does take that emotional risk. It does take doing something that most partners have an incredibly difficult time doing. And that's just looking in each other's eyes and not only being willing to see your partner, but let your partner see you. Right. So, so that's where I think going back to your earlier, it's sort of

24:49an admonishment of that, uh, that old recommendation in the field. It's not just about scheduling time to have sex. Right. It's really deepening that intimacy. What did you remember that cliche that was going viral for a minute? intimacy into me. I use. I see. Right. Right. Uh, it's, you know, corny, but, but, uh, it's fun on. So the first, uh, point I would make it for, most people really needing to get through their heads is the sexual intimacy is more than intercourse. We have to lose this script that sex is intercourse and everything else is just fooling around. It's all sex. If you're kissing, if you're touching, if you're flirting, if you're, uh, you know, being, uh, teasing, if you're talking about fantasy, anticipating again, that text from work. Oh, I'm going to be Randy when I get home.

25:50Can't wait to see you. That's kind of like for play. And when I was a young sex therapist, I find a like, he used to make me rich. Now I'm all sex therapist. I go, yeah, you know, it kind of is. Well, I mean, I think that's exactly what for play is. Right. For play is really so often intercourse focused, but, you know, again, yeah, that a text, I was going to say a phone call, but nobody does. Anybody. Who does that? A text or even an email or, uh, you know, a tweet to it. You know, that basically it's like, hey, just, you know, again, in the middle of the day, I'm thinking about you and, and you know, what? I just, you know, oh, I have such an urge to touch myself right now, but I have to wait till I get home. I mean, what's that going to do for the interest in each other, the connection when they get home? Right. Right. Right. Right. And, and then I think building on on those kinds of anticipatory sorts of things. And again, passion is about, uh, uh, this got to be a little tension.

26:52An anticipation is a wonderful tension to build that kind of stuff up, rather than irritation. Right. You don't need to have makeup sex to have good sex. So there could be this goodness anticipation and, and, and, you know, just trying to get close. Right. And, you know, also, not for nothing, one of my favorite reminders with the therapists that I supervise that are training to become sex therapists, even if a couple doesn't necessarily have a sexual problem or a sexual dysfunction, we're the ones that can prescribe sex. So even a couple just feels this distance or this, you know, lack of, this loss of connection, uh, just having them touching each other once a week or twice a week. Yeah. The actual intimate sexual connection itself is very often part of the road back to the emotional connection. Absolutely. And I would, and I would even submit that, that time again, that talking about

27:54scheduling, that's the kind of thing that people can schedule, you know, make some time for each other every day to just be present with each other, just to connect with each other, no phones, no tablets, no technology, no, you put the kids to bed. Uh, uh, if that's the case, whatever it is, and just, you know, devote that few minutes or whatever time together to just discover something about each other. Yeah. Discover something about yourself with your partner as part of that relationship. You know, that's, you know, we've talked about this. I think we've mentioned this last week that, you know, when you, when you're talking about a relationship, there's at least three components here. Right. In a typical, uh, a couple, you have one, the other and the relationship. So all of those are sources of discovery. Yeah. Because people can, two people can be extremely familiar with one another. Well, at the same time being almost strangers to, right. There's inner lives, right.

28:56A couple weeks ago, we were talking about sexless marriages. Mm hmm. Excuse me. Talk about people screaming inside their skulls and no people. Coming out of their mouths. Night after night after night until it just stops. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Good point to add to end on my brother. Excellent. My brother. Uh, and thank everybody for listening and, uh, we will catch you on our next episode of Sex Talk with the Segal Brothers. Please feel free to write in through Brushwood Media Network. Uh, you can contact us at sextalks, or at sexegalbrothers, at gmail.com, uh, on YouTube, Instagram, and anyway, you won't get ahold of us. Thank you all for listening. Thank you for tuning into another episode of Sex Talk with the Segal Brothers. You can also follow us on Facebook and subscribe to our YouTube channel to stay on top of the latest developments in the ever changing world of sex and sexuality.