Why do parents turn their kids into influencers?

When I was younger, maybe like 18 or 19, there was a stretch of time where I had this nightly routine.

I'd get in bed, open YouTube, and I'd watch the latest vlog from Shay Carl and his family.

Their channel was called, I'm cringing as I say this, Shay Tards.

Shay Carl and his wife Collette filmed their daily life with their five kids.

The vacations, the inside jokes, even the most mundane moments like running errands.

There was something almost addictive about knowing these really intimate details about another family.

It kind of felt like I was peering through a window into their lives.

They were early family influencers before he really had a name for that.

I don't really follow family influencers these days, but when they come across my feed, I have a really hard time looking away.

The details they share have become even more intimate.

Everything from potty training to puberty to their kids' mental health struggles.

What used to feel like looking in from the outside now feels like you're sitting on their living room couch.

Watching things, you're not sure you're supposed to see.

I'm Rene Mecherez and welcome to This Is Uncomfortable.

The weekly show from Marketplace about life and how money messes with it.

Lately, our team has been seeing a wave of stories about this corner of the internet.

Young adults speaking out about what it was like to grow up on camera,

being recognized by strangers or teased at school,

having some of the most vulnerable moments like hospital stays or their meltdowns filmed and shared for profit.

In a lot of the coverage, we kept seeing the same byline for Tessa Latifi.

Family influencers have been her beat for years,

and she just published a book on the subject called Like Follows Subscribe,

Influencer Kids and the Cost of a Childhood Online.

In this book, she talked to dozens of influencer families and their kids

about what happens when documenting someone's childhood becomes a million dollar business.

This week, I'm chatting with her about what she found,

how family influencing can shape kids' lives,

and what it reveals about motherhood and the financial pressures

pushing parents to turn their lives into continents.

By the way, before we jump into this interview,

we always love hearing from you all.

So if anything comes up for you listening to this episode,

let us know.

You can call us at 347 Ring T.I.U.

And be sure to listen to the very end.

We're going to share a sweet call we got from a listener recently.

All right, here's my conversation with Fortessa.

Fortessa, welcome to the show.

Yeah, thank you for having me.

Okay, so I want to start by talking about how these family influencers operate.

Like watching these videos, it kind of feels like a reality show

and they're producing and managing and filming.

And it's a whole production.

Oh, yeah, it's an entire production.

And I think that's something that really amazed me in my book

is that in my reporting, I found that the top strata of these influencers

really run their companies tightly.

And it's really interesting because they have videographers,

they have editors, they have, you know, house managers.

Yeah, yeah.

So it really is.

You said it's like a reality show.

And when you get that successful, it really is like a reality show

because you have all these other people coming into help.

It's not just like mom and dad with a tripod anymore.

Well, where are you personally drawn to this world?

Oh, my God.

I think it really is the reality TV part of it.

Because so I don't know how old you are.

But I am 32 and I grew up 35.

Okay.

I grew up in the era of 16 and pregnant on MTV and teen mom, right?

Oh, yeah.

I watched like all of those seasons.

Same.

I was so into it because I was 16 and I just like couldn't believe it.

And then in the last few years,

those kids have started turning 14, 15, 16 themselves.

And I remember a few years ago watching an episode

where one of the kids of the teens,

who's now obviously not a teen,

was shaving her legs for the first time on camera.

And I was like, wow, this is just so intimate and strange.

And then I started thinking about how it used to be this very small,

kind of cohort of people who grew up like this.

Like it was like the doggers, the Gosslands,

and the teen mom kids really.

Right.

But now it's like, there's thousands of kids who grow up this way

because of intonencing.

And it's arguably much less structured.

So it's like, at least with like the teen mom kids,

like they were filming a few days a month, right?

And then they would have a few months off.

And then they would come back and it would be like seasons.

But like family vloggers, it's like constant.

Yeah.

I wonder myself why I'm drawn to this kind of content.

Yeah.

And it's just like we're all so fascinated

by how other families live and how they all.

Totally.

And how it's different for Mars or how it's similar.

Yeah.

It's the same way as when you're a kid,

you go to a sleepover and you're like,

oh my god, I can't believe their parents do this.

Sorry, I can't believe that they don't have to do this.

Like families are so fascinated.

There's nothing more intimate than a family unit.

Okay.

I want to talk about the money part of this.

Can you explain the mechanics of how someone makes money

off of this kind of content?

Sure.

So some people are making a really healthy like $100,000 a year.

Some people are making $500,000.

Some people are making multiple millions,

tens of millions a year.

Like it just really depends.

YouTube is the most highly paid for creators.

And then Instagram is like Instagram pays really badly.

But it pays off in other ways.

So people might be making like, I don't know,

$100, a couple hundred dollars a month off of Instagram.

But at the same time, you can post your sponsored brand deals

and all of that.

And then TikTok pays per view.

So there's basically a few buckets.

But can you give me a sense of how much a family can make from,

I know, like a brand post?

You know what's fascinating is I've talked to people who said

that when they started in family influencing,

they weren't sure if they were going to give it a go or not.

And then they made their entire yearly salary on one brand deal.

So yeah.

And for the highest people, like I've talked to people,

like experts in the book who told me people are making $150,000

for a grid Instagram post, like for one post.

What?

Yeah, yeah.

That's like an annual, that's more than most people make a year.

And they're just getting it from one post.

Yeah.

Totally.

Yeah.

I know, I'm like, should I be a mom influencer?

Like what am I doing?

Well, I want to talk about something that really fascinated me

while reading your book, which is how families kept pushing

that envelope.

Can you tell me what kind of content tends to be the most

lucrative for parents?

Yeah.

So this was fascinating to me.

I asked family vloggers and mom influencers what content

does the best for you and several of them went on the record

and said that content where kids are sick, sad, or injured

does better than content where they're not.

Geez.

Like broken teeth, broken bones, hospital visits.

Yeah, broken bones, tantrums, even more intimate moments.

Like, I've seen videos of people crying over their parent

who has gotten divorced from their other parent.

And like, it's that anecdote.

Oh, my gosh.

It was so heartbreaking.

It was this like mom who, they were at church, right?

Yeah.

And then the daughter was crying because she was missing her dad.

And then they, she like pulled her aside and recorded a video

of her crying.

That moment stuck out to me because the mom did ask the daughter,

is it okay if we record this?

Yeah.

She says that she did and the daughter said that she did.

But I mean, I don't know.

Can a child really understand what it means to post a video

of themselves crying over their father?

Like, I don't know.

And also, why even put the kid in that position?

Like, that's just so difficult.

I wondered that too as I was reading the book.

Like, informed consent is not really a thing with children.

Or it's just like, how can they understand the long term

implications of putting this online?

Yeah.

And with that specific circumstance,

I remember the mom told me, well, I told my daughter

that it might help other young girls to like see this

if they were going through something similar.

And like, I guess I can understand that premise.

But I question like, why is it the daughter's responsibility

to help those other kids?

You know what I mean?

Like, in my mind, the mom's responsibility

and fidelity is to her child, not to these other children

who might be going through the same thing.

I want to talk about the kids and their POV.

So you talked to the children of influencers for this book,

which I feel like is such a rare perspective.

What did they tell you about being the subject

of their parents' content?

Well, it really runs the gamut, which I think is something

that I try to stress in every interview,

which is that my book is really a nuanced take on this subject.

Like, if you're looking for someone to say family,

vlogging, and mom influencing is evil and moral.

And if you do it, you're a bad parent.

That's not me.

And part of the reason is because when I talk to some

of these kids, they're like, I love YouTube.

When I grow up, I want to be a family vlogger.

You know, like, when some of them do become family vloggers themselves.

Totally, totally.

And they're like, you know, we have all this freedom.

We have all this money.

You know, like, everything is so chill.

Whatever. But then there are also other people

that I've talked to, other kid influencers for my book,

who tell me like, I will never have the relationship

with my parents that I used to have before we turned our family

into a business.

Can you tell me about one of those conversations that really stuck

with you?

Something that I think of as one of the first stories,

actually the first story that I did on the influencer beat.

I talked to a child who grew up on a family vlogging channel.

She was a teenager when I talked to her.

And I call her by the pseudonym Claire.

Claire first went viral when she was a toddler.

She grew up online when I Googled her name.

I could see her growing from a toddler to a little kid,

to a tween, to a teenager.

Like it was so bizarre.

There was merchandise with her face on it that people could buy.

Her family's YouTube channel had billions of lifetime views.

And she told me if it were up to me,

none of this would exist.

And at one point, her father told her, you know,

I might be your dad, but I'm also your boss.

And she got to this point where she didn't want to do YouTube anymore.

And so she told her dad, like, you know, I don't really want to do this.

But at that point, their lives had already been changed.

So her dad said to her, okay, well, we don't have to do YouTube.

But we're going to have to move out of our new house.

Mom and I are going to have to go back to work.

There's not going to be any money left over for nice things.

And so it's like, what kind of choice are you really giving a child

when you tell them that?

And then at the end of our interview, I asked Claire,

if you could tell your parents one thing, what would you tell them?

And she said, nothing, they do now.

We'll take back the years of work I had to put in.

Wow.

How did you feel talking with her in here?

I mean, I was shocked, you know, that was my first interview

with an influencer child.

And I was like, wow, like, I think I always knew that influencing was work.

But I think I didn't realize how much work it was for the children

at the center of it until that interview.

And just like how much it blurs the line of like work and play.

Yeah.

And family and business because she said that she would,

when she was with her family, she was like, we don't talk like

what I think a normal family would talk like,

like we talk about YouTube.

How does being an influencer kid impact the way that these children,

some of whom are now adults, think about money?

It's very complicated.

So one of the family vloggers that I talked to who is a former family vlogger,

they told me that once they stopped vlogging,

their older children had to, you know, go into the workforce,

like almost all young people have to.

And their son was like, I'm being taken advantage of.

I'm only making $15 an hour.

And their daughter was like, why am I going to go to college?

Like, this doesn't make any sense.

And it's like, if you grew up being handed stacks of cash

for a 30-second video, why would you want to go get a job?

It's really warped.

They're sense of money and...

Reality.

And reality, huh?

And I remember the mom that you talked to in that case was like,

did I screw up?

Yeah, like, what did I do here?

Yeah.

Well, so then, what did the families tell you in terms of their kids getting paid?

Like, how often are children seeing some of those financial rewards?

Well, it's interesting because they say that,

and obviously you have to take things with a grain of salt,

but they say that they're paying their kids.

And I do think it's interesting because I talk to a former family vlogger

who was really high up in the industry.

And they said, it's not a question of whether the kids are getting paid

or not, but what that payment does.

So the payment can function like as a bribe almost.

Yes.

Yeah, I mean, I talk to one former family vlogger who said that they would offer their kids

a thousand dollars in cash to do a quick 30-second to a minute video,

because it's worth it for them if they're making tens of thousands of dollars

or hundreds of thousands of dollars off this video, then what's a thousand dollars for a kid?

That's interesting, though, that a lot of families feel like they have to pressure their kids to do it.

Yeah, well, because I think it is a job.

People are like, oh, influencing whatever, whatever, but it is a job and it takes work.

Okay, so in some cases, the families are paying their kids.

But talk to me about laws.

What protections are available for children?

So there are five states in the US that have laws pertaining to the profits of influencer children.

But I think the interesting thing is that there are only five states,

and that these only came about in the last few years.

And so for the last 20 years, really, these kids have been without protection.

And so people often compare influencer kids to actors,

but there are a lot more laws in place for actor children than there are for influencer children.

After the break, the influencer parents who decided to take their kids offline.

People's reactions to them taking their kids offline proved to them that they did the right thing.

By the way, I'm really curious about the financial trade-offs parents are considering these days.

Like as childcare costs keep rising, have you or your partner considered becoming a state-owned parent?

If so, what kind of financial factors are going into that decision?

Let us know.

Leave us a voice message at our hotline at 347-Ring-T-I-U.

Welcome back. I'm Rimechres.

Today we're talking with Fortesca Latifi about the world of family influencers.

If this conversation has you rethinking which influencers you follow online,

tell us about it on Instagram or on TikTok.

We're keeping the conversation going at this is uncomfortable pod.

All right, now back to my conversation with Fortesca.

I want to go back to what we were talking about earlier around teen moms

because I find that whole realm really interesting.

There are so many teen mom influencers.

Get ready with us as teen mom influencers with four kids in the house.

Come grocery shopping with a 19-year-old teen mom with a three-year-old baby girl.

No budget and TikTok is my full-time job.

There are so many teen mom influencers and it really is a way

for young moms in vulnerable situations to make things work.

I mean, one of the young women that I talked to,

when I first talked to her, she was 15, she was in her second trimester

and she didn't know how she was going to make money for her baby.

I mean, what were the options that she had?

First of all, who's going to hire a teenager?

Teenagers are under employed as it is and then a pregnant teenager.

And also, you're going to make minimum wage.

Like, she wasn't qualified for better jobs.

And then she got on TikTok.

She reached the monetization threshold, which is 10,000 followers.

And then by the time I talked to her, she said that in the past month,

she had made $500.

And it was her first month being monetized.

And I was just thinking about how many hours that would have taken me working at

job abuse in high school.

Right. Right. You know.

And that's just the beginning.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

And also, how is she going to afford daycare?

I mean, adults can't afford daycare.

And that's just the beginning of the teen mom,

like TikTok kind of world, because I talked to some young women,

like Mary Claire was one of the people that I talked to.

She told me that she makes between $10,000 and $30,000 monthly from social media.

And she's looking to buy a house.

And it's like, I can't buy a house, you know?

Well, that's because they know there's an audience for that, right?

I'm fascinated when I'm scrolling through my TikTok and see someone who's

15 talking about having twins.

It's the same kind of fascination we have when we watched teen mom.

Yes, it's just the new version of teen mom.

I'm curious when you talk to some of these teen moms,

or moms in general,

did they express some misgivings that they have?

Or like, how do they deal with that tension of basically trading their kids privacy

for profits?

Totally. I mean, the parents definitely had misgivings.

I don't think there was a creator that I talked to who did not have misgivings.

I think the question is how the scales tip.

And so when you're looking at the possibility of being completely financially solvent

and successful versus privacy, like you can understand how the scales tip,

especially for moms and parents who come from more vulnerable situations.

Like if you're sitting there thinking, I can go to work for $12 an hour

and be away from my kid 40 plus hours a week and not even be making that much money

after paying for daycare.

Or I can make content online of them.

Like, you know, that is a difficult decision.

And I think it's it's untrue for people to say that it's not difficult.

You know, people are like so high in mighty.

And like, I would never do that ball ball.

But I'm like, I don't know if you were in a different situation you might.

Well, did it push any parents to just stop doing it all together?

There were parents that I talked to in the book who used to share their kids online

who didn't later and who haven't now.

And that actually points to a larger trend both in the influencer parenting world

and the general non-influencer parenting world,

where people are taking their kids offline.

And that's both because of this growing realization of what an online footprint is,

the question of consent and privacy.

And also the radical acceleration of AI technology.

Can you give an example of an influencer who decided to take their kids off?

Yeah.

So one of the first huge influencers that took their kids offline was Maya Knight.

And she was a young mom of twin girls.

And she would make these day-in-the-life videos where she would like, you know,

be juggling both infants and be like making them bottles and feeding them at the same time.

And it was really cute.

I remember her videos coming up all the time on my feed.

Look, mom has these yummy, yummy spoons of mush for you.

How about you pick it up this way?

Mm-hmm.

I loved it.

I was just like...

She's very reliable.

Totally.

And she always had her hair in a bun and she looked really tired,

but also really in love with her daughters.

And it was just very sweet.

And then a few years after when she had over eight million followers,

she went online and said,

I'm done showing the girls online.

And basically if you have a problem with that, that's weird.

And I totally get it if you're bummed out because I'm not showing the babies anymore.

I really get it because they are the cutest kids ever.

I'd be bummed too.

But if you are still bummed that you have to like comment something nasty or weird or whatever,

then just take a step back and like do some self-reflecting.

It's been about two or three years since she's shown her daughters.

She has a son now too.

And she doesn't show him.

She doesn't share...

She hasn't shared his name.

She hasn't shared his face.

And I mean, she lost a couple hundred thousand followers,

but like she still has like seven and a half million.

You know what I mean?

Like she's still pretty high up there.

Yeah.

Well, how did it impact her income?

So it's interesting because it seems like when you're that big,

there's a cushion.

But I also talked to...

This family creator, Grant Kumballinov,

who showed his kids online.

And he said he was making six figures when he showed his kids online.

And then once he took them off,

his brand deals went from six figures to zero,

because brands didn't want to not show the kids.

And I think probably that has changed now,

because he made that decision a few years ago,

and it was less popular then.

But it does clearly affect their brand deals.

Yeah, like parents know that if they stop showing their kids,

people are going to be upset.

They're going to be less interested in their content.

Yeah.

And therefore they will get less money.

What's really interesting is I think some of the parent influencers

who've taken their kids offline that I talked to told me

that people's reactions to them taking their kids offline

proved to them that they did the right thing.

So people would be like crying or like posting videos

like, oh my god, I miss so and so.

Or like tell them that they're aunties.

Like, how could you take them from us?

Yeah, they're TikTok aunties, miss them.

And like, da, da, da, da, da, these parents.

Like, told me like, yeah, that was...

That was when I realized that I did the right thing.

I am really curious to hear about what it was like

for you as a parent to write this book.

Because you were pregnant, I believe,

when you were reporting it and then postpartum,

when you were writing it.

How did that inform you reporting?

You know, I think it really changed the level of sensitivity

that I had to the work.

But I think it changed it for the better.

Because I was able to really empathize not only with the parents

because now I could understand what links a parent would go to

to make things good and happy and, you know,

financially solvent for their kids.

But also, I could watch the kids and be like,

think about them as my daughter.

And it, but it really complicated it for me.

I think, you know, I hear a lot for my friends

about pregnancy can be pretty lonely.

Motherhood can be difficult, obviously.

Did it help you understand going through that yourself?

Did it help you understand why some people are drawn

to family influencers in particular?

Totally.

I mean, it showed me why I myself am drawn to them.

Because I think especially in the postpartum period,

like I have a great support system,

but I still felt so alone, like no matter what.

Because no one I knew was going through postpartum

at the same time as I was, and I felt so alone.

But when I looked at my phone,

I found tons of mom influencers and family vloggers

who were going through the same thing I was going through

and who wanted to talk about it.

And so, like, that was a relief to me.

And I think part of the reason that mom influencers

and family vloggers are so popular in the United States

specifically is because American motherhood is so lonely.

Yeah.

And also, you made this other great point,

which is that the labor of motherhood is unpaid.

And in a world where everything has commodified,

you could understand that some people,

like why some people have found a way to monetize this labor

that is mentally and physically and emotionally challenging.

Yeah.

They are simply working within the system that we have.

Yeah.

And should we blame them or should we blame the system?

You know, but it's easier to blame them

because who are we going to blame when it comes to the system?

You know, after reading your book, I also saw

from a different lens of just like how a lot of these women,

especially the ones who come from more religious communities,

they don't have the opportunity to create a path for themselves,

like they go from girlhood to motherhood.

And so, they don't get to pursue their ambitions

and this is one way to be able to do it.

Yeah.

And still be socially acceptable.

Yeah.

Okay. So, after all this reporting,

would you put your daughter on the internet?

No.

No.

I can understand making a different choice.

And I am not one of those people who thinks that it's black and white

and that if you do put your kids online, you're evil

and if you don't, you're good.

I don't think that.

But for me, personally, no.

My daughter's face has never been on the internet.

I don't say her name.

I don't talk about her a lot.

No.

I wouldn't.

For Tesla Latifi, this has been such a great conversation.

Thanks so much for coming on to the show.

Thank you for having me out of blast.

For Tesla's book, Like, Follow, Subscribe, Influencer Kids

and the Cost of Childhood Online is out now.

Like for Tesla said, people have very strong opinions on this topic

and I'm curious if this conversation shifted yours in any way.

Maybe it made you reconsider how you share your own kids online

or who you follow on social media.

Call in at 347 Ring T.I.U.

and tell us all about it.

All right, now it is time for our mailbag.

A couple of months ago, we published an episode

asking the question, how much is enough?

And we got a handful of responses,

including this kind message from Nini and California.

Hi.

I just wanted to call and say that I think this podcast

was everything that I've been needing for a while.

And I think I think about finances nearly nonstop

and all of the fears and anxiety that I have around money

you kind of address through this podcast.

So I really appreciate it.

I'm a teacher and I love teaching and I love my kids

and what I get to do.

But I don't feel like I make enough to do it

and I've been grappling with the idea of enough

and so your podcast episode talking about what is enough.

Just made me some really good thinking points.

Everything just feels so unattainable.

But in a way, your podcast makes me feel a little less alone.

So thank you.

Thanks so much for calling in Nini.

Listeners like you are the reason why we make this show.

All right, that is all for this week.

Be sure to check us out at This Is Uncomfortable Pod

on Instagram and TikTok.

This episode was lead produced by Alice Wilder.

And I'm your host, Dream of Days.

Zoe Saunders is our senior producer.

Our intern is Ian Chen on The Engineering by Drew Jostad.

Bridget Bondner is Marketplace's Director of Podcasts.

Marketplace's Chief Content Officer is Joanne Griffith.

Neil Scarborough is Vice President and General Manager of Marketplace

and our theme music is by Wonderly.

All right, we'll catch you all next week.