Why Guests Don't Come Back to Church After a Big Ministry Event

Welcome to the Rayner on Leadership Podcast, your online home for leadership lessons and advice for the local church.

We talk about practical solutions for pastors and church leaders.

Episodes are hosted by Tom Rayner, Sam Rayner, and Josh King.

It's no secret, at least if you've been listening to this podcast for any amount of time, that I'm not as big a fan of an event-driven ministry.

It has its place, though, and there are some good things that can come from it.

We're going to talk about why guests don't come back after a big ministry event.

So one, we're going to give some good to these ministry events because they do have some good.

And then we're going to talk about what you can do to really capitalize on the event.

And we're going to unpack what it actually takes to turn community events into gospel opportunities.

I like it. And after we say a thank you to our ministry partner, I got a story.

So just let me tell the story when we get, but I'll let you go first.

All right. So dad has a story that's the teaser hang with us while we talk about our ministry partner upward running.

Absolutely love this program. I'm a runner.

And it's a few miles of 100 miles before you get injured.

Well, I'm right back into training now this at the time that people will hear this.

Like I'm already back on my next 50 training for my next 100. So we're good.

Yes, my knee acted up a little bit, but that has nothing to do with upward running.

Upper running did not cause any of my injuries. I want to be very clear about that.

Upper running helps me. They help me stay on course, stay on the task of doing what I need to do.

And help you go from couch to completing a 5K.

And they've got a whole program for your church.

It can be, you know, individuals, it can be a small group.

It's really flexible program. You should check it out.

This is something that I know people in your church will be interested in.

And you can go to upward.org slash run coach link in the show notes.

Upward.org slash run coach. Great program.

Capitalize on the popularity of running.

And that's a good time to do it because you know what, the weather is starting to change.

And it's getting a little better.

So get ready for summer, get ready for, you know, the warmer season with upward running.

Absolutely. You know here my story.

I do. Yeah, that was the teaser. I have no idea what you're going to say.

So let's do it.

So I usually don't know either. We were doing a consultation.

There's enough space since we've done it where.

And because I don't have the precise numbers and facts,

I'll estimate or even make up some.

But I'll try to be as close as possible.

This was a church running about 250.

Nice as church.

We're doing a consultation.

And basically I could see that they had a lot of things going for them.

But one of the challenges they had was evangelism reaching people who are not coming.

Common. That when we when we did the surveys.

A lot showed up in the surveys about evangelism.

I don't remember that in just a moment.

But anyway, again, this is where my facts might be a little bit off.

But they had a barbecue huge community barbecue.

And I believe that what kind of barbecue?

Because I prefer North Carolina vinegar.

It's North Carolina vinegar.

It's the that's the best.

And I just those fighting words with some people.

I know that.

Well, it's North Carolina style with vinegar sauce.

It's a pork pork.

But they they they had this big event.

And they they people would donate the pigs and would do all the work.

I mean, they put hours and hours and hours.

And they said the typical attendance was 500 to 700 in the community.

That's you and that's that that's great.

That's huge.

That that that's good.

A lot of recognition.

They they handed out different things to people.

Sometimes mug sometimes they tried to give a gift to two.

In everybody, not just a piece of paper.

So so so that was good.

And I said, when we would interview Sam.

And we would do these one on one interviews with the church members.

We say, tell me about evangelism in the church.

You know what they would say.

Barbecue.

Barbecue.

And again, I think it was 20 years.

And let's say that they've had 500 people during those those 20 years.

What is that 10,000 people?

Yeah, this phenomenal phenomenal outreach.

So I would ask informally.

Sometimes in the interview.

How many of those people came to the church?

Ah, that's the sticking point.

And so I asked the pastor that he said, I don't know.

Would you know what I want to do?

We have two services.

And I'm going to ask during the service.

How many of you came to this church who are barbecue?

Did you know that he wouldn't do it the second service?

Because no one is there.

I had a feeling that this is where it was going.

So here we have an event that's a very good event.

That gets into the community, draws a big crowd.

Everyone loves it.

Probably good for the reputation of the church.

But when it comes to the fruit of assimilation.

There is none.

And this seems over 20 years.

There is no flat zero.

And so the pastor said this can't be.

And he started asking around.

He could not find anyone in the church.

Who came to the church through the big barbecue.

But good barbecue.

So this is not an uncommon story.

Maybe barbecue is not the event.

But how many, you know, picnics, fundraisers, yard sales,

Christmas productions,

Camels, yes, camels.

That was Jimmy Skrogans down in West Palm.

Family, what is now a family church?

If you have not seen that YouTube video, it is, it's epic.

It's absolutely epic.

The camel is falling, the camel is falling.

They don't do that big event anymore.

Because just what they found out.

It doesn't assimilate people.

And many of the people who were coming from members of other churches

who were happy in those other churches.

Yep.

So we need to do a big event.

And if you're like, you know what, we just love our barbecue.

We understand it's not going to assimilate anyone.

This is just for our community and for the love of everyone around us.

Totally fine.

Like if that's what your church wants to do, that is not a problem at all.

But you just need to know that it's purpose is not, it's not evangelism.

It's not assimilation.

It's not outreach.

It's just you throwing a big party for the community, which is fine.

So let's understand what the event actually does.

I think that's step number one.

It's not that you don't do it.

It's that you understand what it's for.

So how do we take some of these events?

Like because we have our fall extravaganza.

And we have, you know, two, I don't know, a thousand plus.

I probably not quite two thousand, but it's somewhere between a thousand of two thousand people

that will show up on our campus on Halloween.

And we know that it assimilates people because we get their information

and we follow up with them and we track it in a database.

So we have a way to know that it works.

But it's first priority is, hey, we just do this for the community because

we want to provide a safe place for people to actually do their Halloween celebration,

especially if you have little kids.

And people love coming to our event.

We know that if 1500 people show up that the assimilation percentage is going to be lower

because it's a big event, but we're okay with that.

So how do we capitalize on these big events?

It's not that you don't do them, but how do we, how do we capitalize on them?

Let's go back to the Church of the Big Barbecue.

So we started talking to the Church of the Big Barbecue.

And the pastor said, Tom, I've been to those events.

He said, I haven't been to the pastor all 20 years, but I've been to the event.

We're extremely friendly.

So I tell you, our members are, they're outgoing.

They serve, their friendlies can be.

And I told the pastor, I said, look, friendliness is not the same.

It's not the same as connecting with them relationally.

You can be, look, you can go to any kind of big event.

I was trying to think what you and I went to last time I was in Brayton,

but maybe it was, maybe it was when we were at the stadium,

the little stadium where the Steinbrenner stadium.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

The Yankees were nice enough to lend us their minor league ball,

their spring training facility and a minor league ballpark.

Well, our tornado shred, our hurricane shredded tropical field was getting fixed.

I remember several people at that event being very friendly and welcoming us.

And when we left, as they had a good day, I remember all kind of friendliness.

But you know what, I was just there for the event.

I don't know who those people are.

I didn't develop any relationships with them.

I did not connect with them.

They did find for the event.

Well, okay, church, if you really want to see some people coming,

you have got to be highly intentional about your people connecting with them.

And that means more than just being friendly,

that requires some intentionality.

Whether you say, hey, you love in my neighborhood.

Can we go get a cup of coffee sometime?

Can we go to a meal sometime?

It requires a high level of intentionality.

Most events, it is friendly, but not intentionally connecting.

And you bring up a good point, because if some of those greeters ask you to go out for a cup of coffee,

that one, you would say no, and there is a bit of a creepy factor to that.

So, you know, sometimes the event, if it's a big enough event,

it actually lends itself to disconnection, not connection.

That's a good point.

So the event itself, you may have to wave the white flag of connection,

but then celebrate the flag of, we are going to do something for the community.

Yeah, yeah.

The second point, I think, is a really important point,

maybe the most important point in this episode,

and that you cannot outsource evangelism to the event.

Right.

So the event itself is not evangelism.

You know, don't think that just because you're participating in a big event,

and there's a lot of people there, that is some sort of evangelistic activity.

Evangelism requires the proclamation of who Christ is to someone else,

and then, you know, showing them what salvation is through some sort of conversation.

So, while the event may be good,

and the event may be something that you enjoy volunteering for,

and the event may actually draw a big crowd,

and really gives the church, you know, puts you on the map for some reason,

that in and of itself is not evangelism.

And arguably, it's even one of the weaker forms of outreach,

if we're going to make a distinction between outreach and evangelism as well.

So I just want to be careful with, wow, we do this big Christmas production,

and everyone shows up as singing Christmas tree or whatever it is.

It does all good.

But the event, now maybe the gospel shared in that event, I hope so,

but the event itself, just because there's a big crowd there doesn't mean it's evangelism.

This church, and I don't think this church was uncommon,

the event was counterproductive to evangelism,

because the members said this is our evangelism,

and they did nothing else.

So they had an event that was not producing evangelistic fruit,

but they thought it was evangelism, so they did not do anything else.

And by the way, I've never understood singing Christmas trees.

I don't know why you put people on branches and have them sing.

A little heads like ornaments.

I kind of like them.

I like the old traditional, not like some old traditional things in churches.

I don't have a complaint too much about singing Christmas trees.

No, I'm sorry.

I've seen some done very well,

and then I've seen some that are odd,

just because of head placements on the tree.

Who ever thought of that?

Hey, we're going to put heads as ornaments on trees.

Listen, it's kind of a thing.

It's kind of a thing for a while,

and there's still some churches.

You'll get a singing Christmas tree,

and make sure you have every church has a gym.

That was kind of a thing for one time.

Yeah, I like the traditional Christmas stuff at Christmas time.

I just don't think a bunch of ornament heads is pretty Christmas.

Well, I say that we don't do it at West Brite did,

but I only imagine what Jordan, my worship pastor,

would say if I was like,

we want to do a singing Christmas tree.

I can see his face right now.

No, please don't do that to me.

Let's talk about this third point.

This is about what is the church's mission,

and is it clear?

Are the events or is the event that you're doing tied to this clear mission?

If you have a clear mission,

whether you call it a mission or a vision,

or a moment cluster far at the point is,

do the people understand why we exist

and what we're supposed to be doing,

and does the event connect to that?

Yeah, so back to our extravaganza,

as we call it, on Halloween.

So we do it on Halloween every year.

We're the place to be.

Our mission as a church is to be a neighborhood church for the nations.

So the idea there is,

we want to be a strong presence in our neighborhood,

and we want to obviously do cross-cultural missions,

and cross-culture could be local.

It could also be international.

So nations could refer to different kinds of people

that are in our community,

and it could also refer to,

we're crossing geopolitical lines.

We're going to get on an airplane and go in some other continent to share Jesus.

So the follic extravaganza for us is something that very much fits

with who we are as a church,

because 45% of our community is ethnic.

And when we do this event,

it is like everybody from everywhere in the neighborhood is there.

And we love that about it.

It's also a way for us to be a neighborhood church,

so the people that show up to it are from the neighborhood.

So while it is a big event,

and it's one of our better events,

if not the best event that we do all year,

it is very much tied to our identity.

And I think where events struggle is when people struggle to know,

how does this tie into who we really are as a church?

Exactly.

Exactly.

If you don't know the purpose of the mission, the vision of the church,

however it's articulated,

whether it's memorized or whether it's informal,

you're not going to connect that to something that you don't understand.

So the point on all of this is,

if you don't know your church's mission of vision

or if it's not articulated to the congregation,

the event probably will not reflect that.

This last point goes back to what you said, Sam,

about trunk, you don't call it trunk retreat.

You know, I said Paul Extravaganza,

we have recently changed it to treat street.

It just, you know, if Brandy is listening to this,

she's going to be,

how do you not know the name of our event?

We've changed it like six times over the years.

But yeah, treat street is what we do.

That's what we call it.

Looking glass.

Looking glass.

It was looking glass.

Looking glass.

They're the group that sang Brandy.

Oh, okay, yeah, I didn't know that.

I'm glad that you mentioned Brandy.

Now I've got the song Brandy in my head.

You know, you know,

as much as you annoy me with your obscure 1960s music knowledge,

what annoys me even more is all of our listeners

that say they enjoy the fact that you do this.

Huh.

Well, look up looking glass.

You're a fine girl.

What a good wife.

You would love our listeners that keep telling him like,

no, we love the 60s stuff.

Keep keep talking about it.

Thank you.

Thank you.

This one hit one.

You're by the way.

Great song.

So in your treat street treat street.

Yes.

It used to be follow extravaganza.

Now it's treat street.

All right.

Brandy, I got it.

In treat street,

you mentioned that that event is a beginning point many times

because you're getting information

and you will then begin to connect with them relationally.

So that event, although you admit it and you say a certain event

for the community,

there will be some that you intentionally connect

and you're able to bring them into the church.

Yeah.

So we actually have ways of getting people's information.

We do giveaways there.

We have a raffle.

We have people walking around with clipboards.

Actually, they're now iPads.

We do it digitally.

And you know, we're up front about what we're doing.

Hey, we'd love to get information.

Just follow up to you if you don't have a church.

So we're very, very clear about that.

And I would say that out of the 1500 people that show up,

we may get, we'll get, I think around 100 families

to follow up with.

8%.

Not bad.

Yeah, but you know,

yeah, I don't know if it's,

we'll get 100 families,

which may be an average of three or four per household.

That could be three or four hundred people to follow up with

out of approximately 1500.

That's pretty good.

That is very good.

So a lot of people know that we do this

and they're fine with the follow up.

And then of that, you know, 100 families,

I would say every year, two or three end up, you know,

like being a part of our church.

So it is a smaller assimilation number.

But not insignificant.

It's not insignificant.

And it is, it's like,

even if our simulation was worse,

we would still probably do this because it's just such a great event for the community.

But we've tried our very best,

and we keep refining it every year to,

to actually make sure that we have people to follow up with.

And then we have people that will say,

yeah, I started coming to Treat Street like six years ago,

and never stepped in your doors until now,

but it was Treat Street that got me here initially under a campus.

And the other thing that we do with Treat Street is we do a

character scavenger hunt.

So we've got all these people.

Oh, I've seen them dress.

Yeah.

Valencies.

We have a Trunker Treats section.

I mean, it's a huge event that, you know, is,

we go over the top with it.

And within all of these elements that we have on our campus,

we have four individuals that are dressed up like biblical characters.

And if you find all four,

you get a really special prize.

But all four are sharing the gospel.

So we are very intentional about making sure that we give

hundreds of gospel presentations to two families.

So not only do we have a solid enough assimilation rate

with the event,

we're also very intentionally sharing the gospel with hundreds of people

who happen to be on our campus.

And for that reason, we love the event.

Let me, let me suggest something that church members do not say

or do and leaders as well.

Don't blame the community if they don't come back.

I hear that.

I mean, we've done a consultation with the interview.

West communities fall.

We did all this farm and they didn't come back.

See, that's just not the right answer.

That's, that's not going to help anything for the kingdom.

Maybe you just have bad barbecue.

Yeah, do, do the North Carolina style pork barbecue.

And then you'll get more people.

I like it.

I like it.

All right, everyone.

Thanks for tuning into today's episode.

So I want to thank our ministry partner,

Brown Church Development Group.

One wrong facility decision can cost a church years of momentum

and millions of dollars.

And that is 100% true.

Facility decisions can feel overwhelming, expensive, risky,

and too often buildings end up working against the ministry instead of for it.

And that's where the Brown Church Development Group comes in.

They are the church facility experts.

They help hundreds of churches across the United States.

They've helped mine.

I've hired them for my own church.

They did a phenomenal job.

Probably will be doing more with them in the future as well.

Very excited about the plans that they put forward for us.

They've got proven experience.

There are one stop shop for all your church facility needs.

You've got to go check them out at churchfacilityexpert.com.

Whether you're thinking about building a new building,

whether you've got deferred maintenance problems,

whatever your issues are, go to Brown Church Development Group

and the website is churchfacilityexpert.com.

You've got to link in the show notes there.

They're great folks.

Great folks.

Isaac Todd, the team, best of the best.

Congratulations.

Isaac on your second child.

A little boy.

I saw that.

Now that it's posted online publicly, yes.

Congratulations to Isaac.

He's probably not, he's not asking for that.

But we'll, we'll, we'll say it.

We'll say it anyway.

I know he's a proud pop.

Absolutely.

And I just, I just proud, a grand pop.

Yes, he is.

Yes, he is.

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