Why is My Husband Constantly On His Phone? – The Research

Do you feel like something is “off” with your husband? If you’re asking, “Why is my husband constantly on his phone?” Here’s what couple therapists or clergy won’t tell you.

Dr. Hastings and Dr. Lucero Jones are on the podcast talking about their groundbreaking research on how a husband’s pornography use affects his wife.

You deserve support, learn about Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.

4 Ways To Find Support When He’s Constantly On His Phone

• Listen to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast
• Attend a BTR.ORG Group Session
• Meet with a BTR Coach for an Individual Session
• Call a safe person to share your feelings.

No Matter What He’s Doing On His Phone, You Can Choose Emotional & Sexual Safety

Here at BTR.ORG, we understand the overwhelming chaos you feel when you discover your husband is constantly on his phone because he’s using exploitative material. Just brushing your teeth can feel like an insurmountable task.

Try to remember to give yourself grace as you process this new information, and give yourself the space to create emotional safety for yourself, rather than immediately “working on the marriage”.

Transcript: Why is My Husband Constantly on His Phone?

Anne: I have Dr. Heidi Hastings and Dr. Rebecca Lucero Jones on today’s episode. Dr. Hastings recently completed her PhD in family studies at Texas Women’s University. Her research is on religious women who married men who are constantly on their phones using exploitative material.

Dr. Lucero Jones is a practicing marriage and family therapist and professor of marriage and family therapy at Texas Women’s University. Together, they have researched women who have experienced betrayal, and I’m so excited to share their research with us today. Welcome.

Heidi: Thanks, Anne. We’re happy to be here.

Rebecca: Thank you. We’re glad to be here.

Research Focus: Religious Women & Betrayal When He’s Always On His Phone

Anne: So in your studies, you develop the five stages of betrayal and self development. Why don’t we start there?

Heidi: So we are interested in the experience of religious women when their husbands are always on their phones.

We recruited women from non-denominational Christian religions, from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, several Protestant Christian religions, fundamentalist Christian religions, Jewish religions, and we had one Muslim participant, and Catholic. We also had a few women in different religions who moved towards spirituality instead.

So, our range of religious representation here is pretty broad.

Rebecca: We conducted interviews with 31 women of various denominations and sects of different religions, and wanted to understand their experience as a whole and understand the process they go through. Maybe even before they find out that their husband has some sort of compulsive behaviors. Then what happens afterwards, and kind of where do they eventually land.

As we asked them these questions, they told us their stories of their experiences of discovery that what’s he’s always doing on his phone is looking at online exploitation. And also of how they coped and what happened with the marriage. What kind of help they sought out. Their experience with their religions, religious leaders, other family members, friends, just anybody in their social circles.

From that, we developed this model that showed us that there were actually five distinct stages that women went through. But we also noticed a lot of self-development throughout their healing process.

When He’s Always On His Phone: Understanding Religious & Cultural Scripts

Heidi: So the first stage is religious, family, and cultural scripts. Which scripts are, if you think about a play, somebody gets a script that tells them this is how they behave.

Before the discovery that their husband was using his phone for secretive things, often even before marriage. This understanding from a religious perspective facilitated her creation of beautiful, yet innocent core beliefs. About herself, her marriage, her faith, and her relationship with God.

Her personal identity was often abandoned, for the couple’s identity created at marriage. While these women had innocent beliefs that are beneficial to many women. For women I interviewed, their innocence later proves problematic.

Innocent Beliefs & Their Consequences When He’s Always On His Phone

Heidi: So the things that religion brings to many beautiful marriages. Actually compromised some parts and made them susceptible to danger, abuse, and trauma.

They described these initial innocent beliefs as naive and shallow, shameful or confusing later on. Their naivety was also seen in women who knew about their husband’s constant phone use before marriage. So we did have several women for whom it wasn’t secret.

Most of the time, they tell her it’s not a big deal. I’ve taken care of it. It’s no longer an issue. Or they tell her, and the women believed when we marry, we can have all of it we want. So the desire to use their phones constantly isn’t going to be an issue anymore. It’s just going to go away.

Anne: Marriage is going to be the solution.

Heidi: Marriage will be the solution, yes.

Marriage Myths & Realities When He’s Addicted To His Phone

Anne: That is a common myth. That even sometimes church leaders perpetuate that marriage will solve his constant exploitative content problem, or maybe his immaturity problem. If he’s immature, he should probably just get married. And then he’ll be fine, rather than wait a minute, solve the problem first.

Heidi: Exactly. So even those women who knew he uses his phone constantly to access it ahead of time truly underestimated the problem. So each of the women in our study had a unique belief system and path leading to the discovery of how problematic it truly was.

But there were many common characteristics that describe the process. That most of the women went through in this stage. Their naive beliefs about gender, and God, really influenced their understanding at this point.

Naivety About What He’s Really Doing On His Phone

Anne: When you say naive, it sounds like victim blaming-ish. But not simultaneously, right?

Heidi: That’s why we also use the word innocent, yes.

Anne: Innocent, but also maybe even faithful.

Heidi: That’s a good point.

Anne: They believed what their church leaders told them. If their church leader said, “if you obey the commandments and if you marry a “good guy”.” Under these circumstances, your marriage will be good. They checked all those boxes and had faith, thinking, “I did everything I was supposed to do”. It wasn’t a naive thing. I listened to my leaders and did what they said. I wasn’t naive, I had a college degree.”

Rebecca: The reason we chose the word naive is that it is the word the women use. So many times with this research, we try to use the words of the participants. So we capture their experience as they experienced it. And I think maybe that is a resentment towards your earlier self, right? At that time, I just listened to my leaders, and I let them tell me what was best, and I ignored my gut.

So I think there might be a little bit of resentment when they’re using that word. I think you’re right. That whether we use the word naive or faithful, it’s capturing this thing women are often taught. That they are better women. You’re a good woman. If you’re more innocent, pure, you believe, faithful, and we are taught to listen to leaders.

Religious Leaders’ Influence

Rebecca: Many times, in the religious context in which many of these women operate, we have quotes from the women. Where they met with a pastor or church leader, or not as much with the rabbis, but with different leaders. And they were directly told to submit to their husbands that their husbands will lead them in this arena. That they would be safe, and that their husbands knew what they were doing.

So you’re right, many women did, I would say, appease their husband’s requests. That they went along with these things. Because religious leaders are directed to listen to their husband or that they could trust their husband.

Heidi: Particularly for those that aligned with fundamentalist religions. And they had innocent or naive beliefs about what he’s constantly doing on his phone. And that’s just that it’s bad, that’s all they knew. This is bad, people who view it are bad. And that was an incomplete understanding they later identified.

Anne: Also a lack of education about emotional and psychological abuse, coercion, and rape even. So with that lack of education that the religion didn’t give them. They didn’t say, okay, we’re going to teach you about marriage. But also read the Bible and read this book about abuse before you marry?

There wasn’t that. So in terms of abuse education, they didn’t have the exposure to it.

Lack of Education On Abuse & Coerction

Heidi: Well, and even one step further, they didn’t even have education surrounding sexuality. They entered it in a very pure and innocent way. Often expecting their husband to guide and show them the way. Which most men had constantly watched it on their phone and it was their education, and there’s just a big dissonance.

Anne: Abuse is their education.

Rebecca: And I would say not only not being aware of rules of consent, but also knowing about abuse. But also not having a roadmap for healthy intimacy. Because many times in religions, it’s like no intimacy. And then suddenly it’s a free for all. And you’re just supposed to know what that looks like. So there’s no roadmap for what healthy looks like.

https://youtu.be/bV3mhCAOAOA

And I will say in the interviews, it’s clear within the religious context. The message women receive is say yes to everything. There is no consent. So church leaders teach them to say yes to everything. So you don’t have any agency within the relationship.

Your husband will take care of you. Just trust him. So I would say even basic things like agency, consent. Learning how to figure out what feels good in your body is very important. There’s a real absence of that in the religious context.

Rape & Lack Of Choice When He Uses His Phone All The Time

Heidi: One Catholic woman reported that in her Pre-Cana, which is meeting with the priest before her marriage. Her priest said to her, “Your husband has a right to have it”. He has a right to conjugal visits, and you can’t say no. And in hindsight, she was horrified that he’d used the word conjugal visits. Like it was a jail or a prison.

Anne: If you can’t say no, that priest is saying your husband can rape you.

Rebecca: That’s the sad thing, right? This is often the arrangement of the marriage. Consent is not even part of the equation. There’s no equity in the relationship, there’s no freedom.

Anne: You have the right to say no, which you technically do have the right to say no. But they don’t think they do. Which is rape. Rape is being supported by these religious scripts.

Rebecca: A lot of them, it was not happening. But there were definitely some of our participants who said, looking back, this was definitely abuse.

This was definitely rape, but at the time they couldn’t see it. Because they marry with a larger social script saying, you always say yes. But how do you say yes? If you always have to say yes. You can’t, it doesn’t mean anything.

Anne: It is the definition of rape, and nobody taught him that. If you can’t say no, it’s rape.

Trusting Without Trustworthiness

Heidi: We definitely had some participants who realized that later, but they didn’t even understand it at the time. Because through religious messaging, they had such explicit trust in their husbands. That allowed them to be really emotionally, and physically vulnerable. It gave them a false sense of security, because they thought their husbands would be loyal and faithful. Especially when they belong to the same religion.

They had so much trust for them that they made these naive assumptions. And the assumptions were that they’d be trustworthy, monogamous, exclusive, they’d avoid it. Even though there wasn’t any behavioral evidence for doing so. And they assume their relationship would be healthy, robust and intimate. Which many of them were the exact opposite, but they relinquish power.

Knowingly for some women because they’ve been told to, but for others they unconsciously yield to his needs. For his preferences, and they didn’t know their own. Many of them started to be silent.

Anne: Well, it’s interesting to me that victims don’t recognize they are doing that for emotional safety or psychological safety. Because of her emotional safety, her financial safety depends on him. They are really weighing out the pros and cons of, is this safe for me to do, is this not? If I don’t have it with him, he’s going to be angry.

When He’s Constantly On His Phone Doing Harmful Things, It’s An Abusive Situation

Anne: He might yell at me. It’s going to be scary. And that’s why this kind of use, at least the way we approach it here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, is a domestic abuse issue. Because if you’re coming at it from a place of fear. And the reason why you’re agreeing is because you’re silenced, afraid, or you feel like you have to. Then, you’re in an abusive situation.

And so many women have these concerns and worries. They don’t know to define it as abuse. Did they define it as abuse in the study?

Heidi: In this first innocent stage, specifically, the kind of relationships or abuse you’re talking about weren’t on the forefront of their mind. That comes later on, but I would say very few saw it as abuse. Some did after some work with coaches, but largely at this point, no.

Anne: Well, that’s what I see too.

Rebecca: When we recruited our participants, we found that over half of the men have extramarital behaviors. So it isn’t just exploitative content. Women are not saying, oh my husband looked at one picture. He’s got a problem, and they’re making a big fuss of it.

Women are complaining because there is a lot going on in the background. There is a lot of lying, there is no intimacy. There are many problems in the marriage that make a woman say, “Something’s off here”. Something’s wrong. It’s not just he looked at some pictures, right?

The Crisis Stage Begins When You Discover What He’s Doing On His Phone

Heidi: That said, we did have one participant, probably her level of PTSD was one of the two or three highest in all of the group. And she had just seen one picture her husband had looked at. They were Christian missionaries in the mountains of Mexico, and that put her over the edge. The idea of this innocence then shifts into what Anne was saying through stage two, which is crisis.

Anne: We talk about this one man somewhere who might look at it and be a nice guy. The women who come to BTR, none of them have that experience. It’s that they try to get help, they try to figure it out, and no one told them it was abuse. That’s why it’s the best support for betrayal trauma. And so they couldn’t find their way out. Because it was more like put your shoulders to the wheel sort of thing. Like help him with his addiction and stand by your man kind of stuff.

And at least from the women I’ve sampled, which is not everyone, but it’s never just this one time this guy looks at this one picture. So for that woman in the mountains, there’s probably so much abuse going on that she didn’t even realize, lying, gas lighting, and psychological abuse. Which is why she reacts the way she did

She might not have even been aware of it when she described it to you. Which is so hard, because women who don’t have abuse education can’t describe what it is. It makes it hard to grasp what’s happening, because they’re not going to say, yes, this was psychological abuse.

Out Of Boundary Behaviors

Rebecca: I think you’re right. I mean, anytime I have someone coming in and discussing any sort of, it could be texting, it could be a picture. I can never know the depth of what’s going on because many times people will come and catch somebody. Or somebody disclosed some sort of behavior. That’s outside of, I would say what we call the marital contract, right.

Anne: There’s boundaries or something, yeah.

Rebecca: That they have set, right. Every couple may have different boundaries. But whatever boundaries they’ve set, there’s some sort of behavior outside of that, and as a therapist, I always have to remember. I can never know whether they’re being honest with me.

Like you said, there could be many behaviors going on. But if the woman is desperate to save the marriage. She will also not create a narrative for the therapist that says, yes, he looked at this picture. And there’s also this thing where I don’t feel like I can do what I want. Also, I don’t have agency in my life, and I don’t have control of my finances.

Many of that stuff takes time to come out. And so it is hard, because there’s so much invested in saving the marriage. Sometimes, one, the man is not honest, he’s hiding something. And two, the woman does not know about the things she’s experiencing.

Anne: She can be completely honest. She’s just not educated about abuse.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Recognizing His Behaviors Are Abusive

Anne: What I’ve seen most of the time. If I say, did you know that’s abuse? They’re like, what? Well, he’s not punching me in the face. So as they transition to stage two, let’s talk about that now.

Rebecca: I’ll talk about that. Stage 2 we named crisis. This is often where things are starting to unravel for the woman. So one of the first things that happens for her is that she notices something isn’t right in the marriage. So it can be that her husband is withdrawing. Many women talk about how it starts to not happen as much or at all.

Maybe she buys new lingerie and he has no reaction. It could be other behaviors, but she is noticing that something isn’t right in the marriage. Something is off. And so often, when this happens, she may try to compensate to stabilize the relationship.

So that can look like doing acts that maybe before she wasn’t willing to do. It can look like offering herself up at different times that she wasn’t wanting to. That can look a lot of different ways .

The Traumatic Impact of His Constant Phone Use

Rebecca: And then one of the most important things that happens in the crisis stage is discovery. Sometimes men would come forward, maybe they listened to a sermon that made them feel guilty. And they may actually confess to their wives what has been happening.

Then suddenly he’s like, actually, you know what, I have continued to do this. He’ll share that. And sometimes they’re walking in on their husbands viewing this stuff. And many times the women are having traumatic responses. Especially if she sees him in the act of masturbation while watching something. It’s very traumatic if she sees that happening in real time.

Heidi: It was especially traumatic if she actually saw what he was looking at. Because most women imagine it as something that would appear in a magazine. But when she saw the severity, intensity, violence, whatever it was. That really created severe shock and trauma responses.

Rebecca: A lot can come from that. A client stumbled upon what her husband had been viewing on his phone. And she was disturbed to find that the people he was looking at looked like her. And we had one person in our study who was Black, and I don’t remember the race of the woman he watched, but it wasn’t hers.

When He Uses His Phone Objectification Women

Rebecca: It’s interesting whether it’s someone who looks like you or doesn’t look like you. I think it triggers this thing inside of you. Where you don’t know what your husband’s attracted to. You don’t know if he marries you, because you’re his fantasy versus a real person. I think it just objectifies you either way.

The meaning you make around that may vary depending on what he’s viewing. But either way, I think the woman begins to realize that she’s questioning whether he sees her as a full person. Who he is engaging with versus these images. And so it’s very traumatic, and many women can’t speak. They literally cannot speak for 20, 30 minutes, an hour, they are completely speechless. They have visceral reactions in their body.

Some of them talk about feeling the life drain out of them. Some of them got very ill. We have some women talk about immediately feeling suicidal, where there was no suicidal ideation before this. So we see a lot of symptoms physiologically. Research shows that in Iraqi troops, rates of PTSD were as high as 35%. But we know that with those who experience betrayal trauma, the rates of PTSD can be even higher. And so I think that’s important.

We do a lot in our country in America for veterans, because they experience PTSD symptoms. But it is important, I think, for clinicians, friends, families and those experiencing this, to know that PTSD is common. And many times we are not recognizing that with infidelity or compulsive behaviors, the partners are experiencing a bit of trauma.

Trying To Find Emotional Safety When He’s Always on His Phone

Rebecca: This is something that many people don’t like to talk about. They talk about it as a relationship problem, not as a traumatic experience. So really, it is a crisis when the woman experiences this. Because it’s not just, Oh, we got marriage problems. She’s also having a very physiological response to learning about her husband’s behaviors.

When the crisis hits, many times women don’t know how to proceed. No one’s prepared them for this. And so many times they’re in a hurry to keep themselves safe, and that makes sense.

Anne: That’s what we do here at BTR, strategic boundaries! This is why I wrote The Living Free Workshop.

Heidi: BTR really does come in nicely in this stage and in the next stage. In fact, one of our participants mentioned nine times in her interview about BTR. Which is what helps us decide that it might be a good idea to talk to you. But one of the decisions they make often is that they’re going to have a lot of it with him to try to fix that.

That’s not fully thought out. But it is one of the things that emerged in the interviews that is happening right after the discovery.

Anne: Thinking that was maybe the cause, they didn’t have enough of it.

Heidi: Right

Feeling Silenced & Shame When He Ignores Me To Use His Phone

Rebecca: So following that, many women feel silenced. It is so hard for anyone, I think, to tell your friend that your husband has cancer. But telling him he has an addiction problem, strip clubs or seeing prostitutes is not on the list of things you’re going to share. Even with a best friend, even with family, there’s so much shame around this. And what it might say about the woman.

There’s so much onus put on, like, well, you didn’t have enough with him. Those are definitely messages I think within the cultural context that these women are operating in. And so the shame just absolutely silences the women. So they’re in this crisis. Many of them talked about how much they’d been through in their lives. And this was by far the worst thing. We’re talking like a lot of painful things in people’s lives. And that this is the hardest.

I think one of the reasons it is the hardest is because there is so much invested in their silence. Whether it’s the man in a church position or in the military. We noticed that many times these men had high profile positions. Whether they were in the context of the religion or outside, that made it feel impossible for her to disclose to anybody of status of what was going on. Because a lot of times it might hurt her.

Pressure To Keep It Secret

Rebecca: So like one person shared that her husband was a high ranking military personnel. She said she couldn’t disclose that he’s an adulterer. Because if he was caught for that, he might get demoted and kicked out. And she’s going to lose all her benefits, and she’s going to lose their military retirement. So there are really not many policies and procedures in place to protect women when men behave in this way. So we saw a lot of silencing of the women.

That was something that I think kept them in a place of shame.

Anne: How will I take care of my kids? How will I put food on the table? And those are really just typical, checklist definitions of domestic abuse.

Heidi: Well, and those who weren’t afraid were necessarily embarrassed that it made them look like they weren’t enough. That they weren’t good enough in bed, that they weren’t a good enough person to keep their husband tied to them. Very complex decision making that goes on that keeps them silent at that point.

Anne: Well, and that’s also the psychological abuse. They’ve been manipulated to think they’re not a good enough person. They’ve been manipulated to think they’re not good enough in bed, because he blames her for everything.

Heidi: Sometimes during that crisis, they tried to tell a family member, they tried to tell a religious leader, they tried to tell a therapist that didn’t result in actual help. And so that’s in part what leads to this aftermath stage of, I’ve tried to get help for some of them.

Some of them, I was the first person they’d ever told, but some had made attempts and It was hurtful rather than helpful.

The Aftermath Of Betrayal

Anne: Yeah, we see that a lot here, yeah.

Rebecca: So that leads us into our third stage, which we call the aftermath. In the aftermath, the woman is left with this severed trust and attachment. Many women give up a lot to marry and trust their husband. And then now their husband has let them down in such a major way. With the level of deception that has occurred, in the level of behaviors that have occurred without her knowing. Without her consent.

And so many times in the wake of this betrayal, not knowing what to do at this point. Can they restore trust? Can this be fixed? And so with that comes not just the questioning of, I would say, the marriage, but a questioning of everything they once believed.

Questioning Faith & Trust

Rebecca: Many of these women, because they’re religious and trust God, are marrying somebody within their religion. Many times that feels like they’re making the right choices. Especially when they’re caught off guard. It feels like, why didn’t God warn me? Why didn’t God help me learn this earlier?

I mean, we’re talking to some women finding this out after 30 years of marriage. So it’s a long time to feel like God didn’t even give me a heads up. So many of them ask, you know, God, why’d you allow this to happen to me? Why did you allow me to marry him?

Anne: Did you notice they also simultaneously said, and I don’t know if they did? But sorry, I’m just wondering. Because I see this a lot, that they also simultaneously said God kind of did warn them. Like they knew in their gut that something was wrong, and they couldn’t figure out what it was. Or did some of them just say they had no idea and it came out of nowhere?

Heidi: I think that’s where that something isn’t right comes in. They knew something was not right in that second stage of crisis.

Anne: They just didn’t identify it as a spiritual warning maybe?

Caught Off Guard

Rebecca: I wouldn’t say they knew. Because I’m going to guess that many of these women are the praying kind. And I would say that if they feel something is off. Then I would imagine they would ask God about that. So I did not get the impression, that inclination, that something’s off from God. I feel like they, many of them, felt pretty abandoned in the moment of the crisis. And many times, because for some people, the lies were severe.

There was one person whose husband was with 300 prostitutes. So we’re talking about a lot of lies. And I think it’s so different from their relationship with God. They’ve probably felt like they’ve received answers from God. And that it’s probably why they feel abandoned. Because they’ve probably felt guided by God in a lot of areas of their life.

And then now they’re finding out there are all these secrets in this part of their life. And I think that is probably what makes it not make sense. How’s God been helping me in these ways? But with this major thing, I’m totally caught off guard. And many women are caught off guard.

There were some people who were not from the U.S., from Europe, and some Jewish women. And I would say in those cultures, this kind of viewing is considered more normative. And so many times they are still caught off guard. Because they were taught to watch it sometimes as a normal behavior. And then they saw their husband’s mental health really decline, and physical health even declined because he’s always on his phone.

Spiritual Experiences Amidst Crisis

Rebecca: Sometimes they’re even shocked to discover it. And again, I think it’s because in their minds, they didn’t know what he was doing on his phone. So even those women raised in a climate where using a phone all the time wasn’t a big deal still experienced a level of shock, which is interesting.

Anne: Yeah, that makes sense.

Rebecca: Yes. And so they were surprised to see that it was a big deal. So I think they were like, no, this can be a problem. It’s not, yeah, it’s not just pictures.

Heidi: All this questioning is going on. There are many women who are also having spiritual experiences with God at this time. So we had both camps going on that they felt they had dreams, heard voices, felt a presence near them. They had these spiritual experiences going on.

I don’t want to discount the women who weren’t going through a faith crisis of sorts because of this. But many of them questioned not only their faith, but they questioned everything they knew about their husband.

Heidi: Okay, so if this isn’t true, what else isn’t true.

Anne: Well, and they should in that moment.

Heidi: Right? Their whole reality in every way. They couldn’t figure out what is real.

Anne: He’s just shown himself as a compulsive liar. If they didn’t do that, it wouldn’t be normal.

Ignoring Gut Feelings

Anne: I’m still fascinated, and many women don’t, so this is not a new idea. But I just want to point out that it’s interesting that women don’t recognize their own gut feelings through the abuse, through the psychological abuse and the gaslighting and the institutional gaslighting going on.

They don’t see it as God telling them something. So then rather than thinking, God’s trying to tell me something, I need to listen. I need to listen. They think, oh, I must be crazy.

Heidi: And that’s a big thing that we heard.

Anne: He’s telling me I’m crazy. My priest tells me I’m cuckoo. I asked too many questions. I just need to chill out, rather than think God is trying to tell me something. And then even after finding out. That something was wrong, rather than thinking, Oh, God did warn me. He was trying to warn me the whole time. They’re still thinking, I’m stupid. I didn’t see it. Everyone including my husband says I’m the problem.

That’s what makes me sad. Every place they turn to try to understand what’s happening or get help, they’re just kind of squashed down. Repeatedly over the years, which I think is like the culmination of the 20 years of trauma when they figure out what he’s been doing. It’s not just that one thing. It’s like the culmination of institutional abuse, the psychological abuse, and the societal abuse is like sort of coming to a head. And so that’s so painful.

Developmental Lens

Heidi: Well, and also, because we’re looking at this through a developmental lens. We have to remember that in that stage of innocence, their ability to recognize that intuition, their ability to recognize maybe spiritual promptings is less developed.

Than it becomes later through experience. So a lot of experiential learning teaches us how to be more attuned to our own agency to making choices for ourselves, to our own power as women. And at some stages, they weren’t experienced in that yet. And that comes with more experience.

Anne: Well, and also the result of that, if you’re like, okay, well, my pastor told me it’s fine. So I guess that’s okay, because you haven’t yet seen the end result. So in that moment you think, Oh, I must be crazy. It is fine. I don’t know why I’m making a big deal out of this, because he is nice.

Everything’s okay. What was I freaking out about? But then two years later, five years later, 20 years later, you’re like, Oh, this is what I was freaking out about, no wonder. But in that moment, because you don’t know what’s happening, it’s hard to wrap your head around it.

Heidi: Yeah, they had no comprehension.

Coping Mechanisms & Seeking Emotional Safety

Rebecca: Many women were desperate to fix the marriage, to fix what was broken. So many times that’s trying to help him, help him overcome the addiction. Maybe having more. And many of them talked about how that was a strategy they tried to use. But it never worked, because the lack of it, was not the problem. And so a lot of desperation to fix things.

Another important part of this was how women were coping. Some women were coping by using their religion or spirituality as a resource. Many of them spent a lot of time in prayer or meditation seeking solace. But then some other women had some, I would say, more maladaptive coping strategies like drinking. Many times, there were not many resources available to these women.

Heidi: It’s mostly maladaptive, like starving themselves, focusing on their body. How it’s not good enough, screaming, yelling, trauma responses.

Rebecca: As they’re trying desperately to fix it and salvage it.

Anne: And I would say control is safety seeking. In a, I need some semblance of emotional safety, psychological safety.

Rebecca: Many times, the women have not been able to do it on their own. So many times when we were talking about how this is too big, this is going to kill me. They can’t manage it.

When You Find Out: Handing It To God

Rebecca: And at that point, they’re ready to give it to God, because they cannot hold it. It is too big for them to fix it, fix the marriage, and fix what’s wrong with their husband. And so at this point, many of them are ready to hand it to God.

Heidi: Or to just a level of acceptance. Some that didn’t necessarily align with God maybe thought more of it as a higher power. Or just acceptance that this was the state they were in and they couldn’t handle it.

Anne: Just accepting the situation. Like, okay, this is a situation, and there’s nothing I can do about it. That kind of acceptance?

Heidi: Right. I can’t control what has happened.

Healing From Being Ignored By Your Husband

Heidi: So the fourth stage is healing. After they’re realizing they have no control over what has happened, they start grabbing hold of this power within themselves. It almost seemed like, and they start vulnerably breaking their silence.

Many for the first time, they are desperate to find help, ask for help through therapists, sometimes through religious leaders or different religious leaders. Because maybe who they’d gone to before wasn’t helpful. But they in the past didn’t have the language to speak about these shameful topics.

So many of the women started their learning process, their learning journey, their healing process through books, podcasts, websites, social media. Things that you have through BTR, anything that they could find on addiction or on betrayal, trauma, or infidelity. If that was part of their experience.

They sought out support groups like yours. And the more quickly they broke their silence, they reduced shame. Which getting rid of shame was key to healing, the less time they spend in those crisis and aftermath stages. So some women had spent decades in crisis and aftermath, but finally, when they start learning and getting ahold of resources, they can start healing. And so we appreciate the work you do to help women heal.

Support From God

Heidi: Additionally, many women leaned heavily upon and reported receiving support from God, like I mentioned. But even at a different level, when they had religious leaders that would actually validate them, see them.

Anne: Which is rare. How many of the 31 you interviewed had that?

Heidi: I think many women went to several religious leaders, so they would find some that didn’t work, and then they would change congregations.

Anne: So it’s hit and miss.

Heidi: Find different pastors, it was definitely hit and miss, but there were some who had really phenomenal support from religious leaders.

Jewish Woman’s Story

Heidi: One that comes specifically to mind was a Jewish woman, who her friends said, “We’re taking you to see the rabbi”. And the rabbi happened to be a woman.

And she said she pushed it away. She kept saying no, because she was so embarrassed. Her husband’s in a high profile position. But she finally went to see the rabbi, and the rabbi took her to the mikveh. Which is a sacred immersion in living waters in the Jewish tradition that symbolizes coming out of the Garden of Eden.

And they enter the waters completely naked, immersing themselves back into the waters of creation for purposes of rebirth and renewal. Like a new start, we’re going to wash away all the corruption, all the negativity, all the pain, the suffering, and start new. And it didn’t happen immediately for her, but the step that that religious leader took to help her see that she was cared for. She was validated, that was so meaningful.

And there were a few stories of women who had great experiences with religious leaders, typically that they helped women find resources. Not that they necessarily tried to handle it, control it, or fix it on their own. But they were able to access resources for the women to get them help immediately.

Learning About Abuse When You’re Trying To Figure Out What He’s Doing

Heidi: And then with that support that the women got, usually in groups. They learned how to set intentional boundaries that allowed them to feel more empowered, protected and safe. As you’ve said, one of the interesting findings in this stage.

Or about betrayal, or relationships or even God in new ways, played a significant role in their healing. And in the reconstruction of their identity. Because they for so long during this crisis and aftermath stage, they didn’t know who they were anymore.

Even learning for a new career or any kind of learning seemed to open up pathways of healing. This is the first time many of them start caring for themselves. Because they, for so long, had been conditioned to care for everyone else first. But once they started implementing those self care strategies, they recognized how much it could improve relationships with their children.

Several women reported how art, poetry, music, dance, or any other types of artistic forms were key to their healing. Quilting was another big one. And perhaps part of that is because quilting is often done in groups of women and provides support in many ways. So those artistic forms brought comfort and understanding, coping and peace. And especially, I think, like I said, quilting. There are other things, dancing with other women, doing just movement.

Other Ways Of Healing

Heidi: So through these different forms of healing, they started to see their reality through new, more educated and experienced lenses. They started to see the injustices they’d experienced during this stage. And I think what you’re doing helps teach women. Help them also see, Oh my goodness, I didn’t even recognize that when I didn’t give consent, that could be rape or abuse.

Anne: You mentioned a bunch of things they learned about, like addiction and other things. They didn’t mention abuse? They didn’t say I learned so much about abuse.

Heidi: No, there were a few who said they had learned that their husband’s way of having it with them was abusive. That was about the only thing they saw as abuse. But many of them had talked about gas lighting, which I think you consider abuse, right?

Anne: Yeah, because the person’s purposefully trying to alter their reality.

Heidi: So they didn’t use that language, but they started, like I said, to see the injustices they’d experienced. And they started to see parts of the religious narratives that had contributed to the marginalization of women. And led them to assume they were responsible for their husband’s behavior.

Which now they could see, Oh my goodness, that’s not truth. So as their self awareness expanded, they started to expand their self development and understanding of who they are and their own use of their agency.

Spiritual Trauma From His Constant Phone Use

Anne: And spiritual trauma, that happens too, because it’s the opposite of what they’ve been taught. That if you just love, serve, forgive and self sacrifice, you’ll have enlightenment. And they’re like, well I did all that, and I for sure was not enlightened. I was, in fact, kept in the dark, and now I’m having more enlightenment than ever. And it’s focusing on my own interests.

It’s a weird place to be, because it feels so good and freeing. And then also kind of like, but this is the opposite of what I was taught. So it’s also a confusing time, I think.

Heidi: Because often I think in religious marriages, they’re taught, be one and sacrifice.

Women Being In Sacrificial Roles

Heidi: And those things are truly important, but they’re important in a safe and healthy relationship. And I think the more we give women the language and power to do that. The examples, the more it’s modeled for them, the more they’ll take that upon their own way of doing things. But when you’ve especially seen a mother as a sacrificial role, we take that script and believe that that is the way we behave.

Anne: Well, because if she tried to do anything else, people were like, you’re selfish.

Heidi: Exactly.

Anne: And it wasn’t okay for her to want to do something, which is sad. That was my personal situation with my abusive ex, because I was like, nope, this is what I want to do. And I’m going to do it. And I was the most terrible woman in the world because women aren’t supposed to be like that.

They’re supposed to be kind and loving, and they’re supposed to sacrifice for their family. And yet his dysfunctional family was doing that, what they wanted to do. But instead of saying, Oh, I just want to do this, so I’m doing it. They were like, I’m doing this because I love you. And I’m doing this because I’m so righteous.

And so, because I wasn’t apparently saying it the right way, you can’t just say it’s because I want to do it. I was actually not doing what I was supposed to do, apparently.

Spiritual Abuse When He Blames You For His Constant Phone Use

Heidi: There were several women during stage four, where they started to see things differently. They did talk about spiritual abuse. That they recognized it was going on in their relationship. I was thinking more, you’re talking about coercion and emotional abuse. But I would say perhaps the effects of spiritual abuse is what they most identified. Or at least spoke of during that stage, where they start seeing what’s going on.

Rebecca: I want to add that anytime you’re in a relationship with someone who has any sort of spiritual authority over you. Which often, I would say, within different religions, the man is seen as a little like the head of the household. Or spiritual kind of leader in the home.

Intimate abuse is spiritual abuse. Because if the person who abuses you has spiritual power over you, just by that alone. That person is a person through which your relationship with God is somewhat filtered through that person. So I think spiritual abuse is actually much more common than I think people actually talk about.

Anne: Well, not just from the abusive spouse, but also secondarily through the help they might try to get from a religious leader. Who is not only aiding and abetting coercion, but also through spiritual abuse. Like this is what God would want you to do. And I’m your spiritual leader.

And you need to give him it whenever he wants it. It’s super traumatic. Did these guys not go to their work, harassment training?

Rebecca: While some of them have zero training,

Anne: I know.

Rebecca: That’s a part of it.

Anne: But I’m like, maybe they should have learned about rape before they give women advice.

Uneducated Marriage Advice

Heidi: Well, I went through a similar situation, perhaps an issue, but it was three decades ago. When I learned he uses it. And so there weren’t the resources available. And yes, a religious leader told me that I needed to submit. I wanted to leave the marriage, and he wanted me to stay. And the religious leader told me that I needed to stay.

And I knew he was wrong. But I did it anyway, for at least a while longer.

Anne: Which amounts to spiritual abuse in that it was a way of coercing you to stay in an abusive situation. It’s really sad that that’s happening. And even though yours was three decades ago, it’s happening every day, all day long now. Which I’m still floored about. I’m like, what? Well, and it happened to me. I’ve been divorced for eight years, but I’m still shocked that women are coming to me, and it happened to them literally last week.

Rebecca: He is not only in that position, but also a church leader who encourages you to stay in an unsafe situation. The real abuse happens when they use their power to give advice. They know you see them as an authority. They give advice that goes against what you feel God has told you.

I think messing with your relationship with God really hurts you. That is the scariest part to me. A lot of times, they don’t know better. They don’t mean to put you in danger, but what they don’t know still hurts women a lot. This is a big problem.

Domestic Abuse Education

Rebecca: And they are usually the first people women go to. And then when they get that response, it doesn’t feel safe to go to anybody else.

Anne: I would not only say it is going against women’s intuition, which is the most important thing, but also against just like literally basic domestic abuse education. And because they don’t have, or maybe they’re abusers themselves. And when I say basic domestic abuse education, I mean, what is psychological abuse?

What is emotional abuse? What is spiritual abuse? Many people think they know what that is, because they watched Safe Harbor, the movie with Julianna Hough. And they think they know, Oh, yeah, he looks bad. And that’s what this looks like. I would know that if she walked in and had a black eye, but it’s not just her intuition.

It’s also any domestic abuse expert would be like, check, check, check. This is checking all the boxes. It’s scary to me that they’re giving advice to abuse victims when they do not know what they’re looking at. But it’s also not surprising, because hardly anyone does.

And so I have a lot of grace for them, because I was also in that boat where I had a master’s degree and was doing my best to be an educated person. I thought I understood abuse, but was in an abusive situation for seven years and did not know.

Grace For Ignorance

Anne: Until I knew, and then I was like, Oh, okay, now I know more. And so that having grace for us not being educated about it and for other people not being educated about it is really hard. When it’s not like a class everybody takes in high school or something.

Thank you for sharing that information about the healing stage. I’ve also seen that with the women who come to BTR. Okay. Let’s talk about the fifth stage now.

Transformation Stage

Heidi: The fifth stage is transformation, and that’s where the women start to take these ideas. The cognitive reconstruction of their reality and put it into action. They have changed these previously held beliefs, and now they’re going to do something about it. They start to see themselves in a very different way.

In fact, one of the women I loved most said, after the betrayal, the words she said to herself were, I can think of nothing that’s the same. Because her reality has shifted so much. But after moving into this transformation stage, she said, I told myself those same words, nothing is the same.

At first, those words felt impossible to fix, like everything was broken and would never heal. Now, she says, everything has changed. She talks about her identity and her love for herself. The women feel like they can be real, honest, and open in their relationships, especially with the friends they made in support groups.

They spoke about healthy intimacy and how closely intertwined it can be with spirituality.

The women talked about that. I want to learn about healthy relationshihps. It feels more intimate and spiritual now. Most women stayed in their religion, but they questioned and changed beliefs that didn’t help them during the crisis. This made them feel more vulnerable.

Reconstructing Beliefs

Heidi: At this point, they built a simpler belief system with religion as the base. Their relationship with God became the focus. Instead of making religious rituals and beliefs the center, they focused on their connection with God. We call this their spirituality, and it all came from their relationship with God..

They were able to develop a deeper, more personal relationship with God. Or attachment to God, because they found God much more trustworthy than their husband was.

A few of the women from different religions actually, and it was I think three or four women talked about longing for a female deity that had an equal weight to a male God. Not that replaced a male God, but that had an equal weight. That would elevate women to an equal status with men and could work together.

And they loved that vision of that might model for their own current or future relationships. There were a few women who no longer felt they could worship in the same way. While most stayed in their religion, we had a few who completely left religion.

There were some who changed locations and yet still maintained that spiritual aspect of religion that they’d gained belief in a higher power, belief in prayer, they started taking ownership of their preferences and behaviors.

One of my favorite interviews had a Native American woman who stayed with a high ranking military officer for years. Because she would have been left with nothing financially. During this period, she just decided I don’t care.

Experiential Learning When You’re Trying To Figure It Out

Heidi: She moved back onto the reservation into her grandfather’s abandoned home. That had been abandoned for decades. And she, all by herself, with a Home Depot credit card, rebuilt that entire home.

It had no running water, no electricity, and no windows. She felt cold and had hardly any money. But she built herself up. She loved that home and made it a safe place. She felt confident.

And they became awakened to a more complete sense of themselves. They were able to, because they did that, reach new levels of intimacy, because they did that.

To have true intimacy, we must know ourselves. They began to see life and God in a whole new way. They used their voices and their choices in powerful ways. The five stages show this model clearly. These stages match many human development stages in books. Experiential learning teaches us lessons we always remember.

And in those advanced levels of experiential learning, we truly learn to help others and fill love at deeper levels.

Anne: I love that I’ve seen that just anecdotally through my experience. But it’s awesome to know how hopeful the situation is, because it feels so dark and so awful when you’re going through it. I remember thinking when people say like, it’ll get better or something like that.

Power Of Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group

Anne: I was so mad. I thought, you don’t know, you don’t know how bad it is. And people might say things like there’s a light at the end of the tunnel, something like that. I just was so angry about it. And now I find myself saying that same thing to others. And so I want to say, I know that it doesn’t feel good to have someone say, “You’re brave and you’re strong” and that you will come out of this, this amazing brave woman.

It feels terrible, but there is so much hope. And I want them to feel that like deep, deep down inside. And if they can’t feel it, like I couldn’t, just maybe hold on to our words or maybe don’t be really mad like I was. Because I was just ticked all the time for a while and that’s okay too.

Heidi: Groups help women see others going through the same thing. They can look at someone further along and think, “In six months or a year, I can be where she is.” Groups give women hope. Women see that if they stick with it and learn about boundaries, things will get better. They watch others in their group improve and feel encouraged.

Rebecca: And I think another thing about groups that can be helpful is to see that women end up at all sorts of positions. It helps women see women end up in various places, and they feel happy and feel like they’re a better version of themselves.

Rebuilding For The Future

Rebecca: Healing can happen in many ways. And really, however, this plays out for any individual woman she’s going to have to be thoughtful and honest with herself. Am I safe here? I think it can be hard for women to trust they would be better off single.

For some women, it’s hard to believe they can rebuild their lives, like fixing up a house, and take care of themselves to be happy again. It’s hard to imagine that in the middle of a big loss. This kind of loss isn’t just about losing someone you loved and spent years with. It’s also about losing the dream you worked on building together.

And so to know that that isn’t possible anymore is heartbreaking. And there’s a lot to be mad about.

Anne: Yeah, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, it’s just safety first in whatever way works for you. I don’t know what that’s going to look like for you. And I don’t know what the safest course of action is. But all I care about is your safety. So how do we assess our emotional, psychological, and intimate safety?

How do we learn to set boundaries. Learning about safety and making safety the priority, I think, is always to use the word safety again, a safe bet. Because you never know what’s going to happen, and it leaves the door open for any opportunity or situation safe.

Emotional Safety When He Won’t Stop Using His Phone Constantly

Anne: My concern is that women often think they’re safe when they don’t understand safety, and haven’t been educated about it much. And so, my concern is to ensure they have the education they need.

Rebecca: Safety builds the foundation for any intimate relationship. Without safety, manipulation can happen because vulnerability increases. Make sure safety comes first to prevent manipulation and abuse. Starting with safety creates a solid beginning for any relationship. Don’t skip that step.

Anne: No, many people are like, Oh, Betrayal Trauma Recovery, they set the bar so high. And I’m like, it’s the lowest possible rung. You can’t set it lower. We’ve literally set it at the lowest possible place. I’m not saying he has to be a model, or he has to have an incredible job, or anything like that. No, no, no. I’m just saying he needs to be emotionally and psychologically, financially and spiritually safe. That’s the lowest bar.

Heidi: That’s why identity was such an important part of this as they go through this experience. They learn about themselves, most of all, and how to navigate. Things in a way that keeps them safe and true to their identity.

Important Work To Do

Anne: I’m so grateful that people are starting to do research like this. It’s awesome. Hopefully, people will continue to do more. So thank you so much for your work. It means a lot to all the women in the world. So thank you.

Heidi: Thank you so much for letting us come and share with you. We love women. We’re champions of women.

Anne: I am so grateful for Dr. Hastings and Dr. Lucero Jones for sharing their studies today. So thank you so much.

Rebecca: Thank you for having us, Anne.

Heidi: And for all the great work that you’re doing.