Why the NHL’s suspension problem isn’t going away

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This is The Athletic Hockey Show.

Hey, everybody, Max Boltman here alongside Mark Lazarus for another episode of The Athletic

Hockey Show.

Fun show on tap today.

We're going to talk about what is at stake and which teams have the most at stake on this

NHL playoff race.

Aaron Porcelain is going to join us shortly to talk about the Columbus Blue Jackets.

We've been one of the best stories in hockey since the Olympic break and even actually

before that.

But first, as I want to get to the news of the night here as we record this Sunday evening,

and that's the AJ Greer suspension.

It is a three-gamer for the Florida Panthers forward after the boarding hit on Conor

Zary.

It's kind of the second.

You have to view this in tandem, I think, with the Matthew suspension from last week.

The Radco-Gudus hit on him.

That gets five games.

Because of that one, Department of Player Safety, I think, and because of the high-profile

nature of Austin Matthews, the Department of Player Safety was under more spotlight,

more scrutiny than even it normally is.

It's kind of a constant conversation that we have year-round in the NHL.

And I think the Greer one is going to be another lightning rod in this.

I hate that we have to qualify everything, right?

Oh, it's a bigger deal because it's a star player.

It's a bigger deal because the player got hurt.

It's a bigger deal because it's a playoff game.

Is it a dirty hit?

Is it something we're trying to get out of the game?

And whether it's the Gudus hit on Matthews, which was a dirty hit that we won out of the

game, whether it's Greer on Zary, which was a dirty hit, we want to get out of the game,

whether it's one of any number of Matt Rempay hits in the last couple of years, or Jacob

Trouber, any of these headshots, do we want to get it out of the game?

And if we want to get it out of the game, it's got to be better than this.

It can't just be three games, four games, five games, two games, phone hearings, all this

nonsense.

Nothing is going to change with the kind of punishments they're dulling out.

The Greer suspension is absolutely laughable.

Laffable.

That was such a violent and dangerous hit.

And to get only three regular season games for that, I don't know what we're doing here.

All right.

So a couple of things there.

So the first one is the hit itself and the hit is a bad hit.

It's one of the more dangerous hits you can make in hockey is it's actually, in a lot

of cases, more dangerous to hit someone at that distance from the boards.

And really, this wasn't necessarily even a hit.

It's more of a shove.

But he shoves him down far enough away from the boards that he is going to run basically

headfirst into the boards with the stumble.

And that's, I think, where the fear comes in here and that's the reaction that you're

having, right?

Is that this is a head and neck, you know, super risk for a play like this.

I think the issue with the suspension length is always comes back to precedent.

And you look at like, okay, if we wanted a higher number of games here, you would have

to find precedent, I think, to why deliver that?

Why?

The precedent is bad.

That's the whole justice system.

The precedent is not sufficient.

It's failed us for years.

Why?

Just because they screwed up three years ago and they screwed up two years ago and they

screwed up yesterday, do we have to screw up today?

Because you're going to get an appeal.

You're going to, at some point go before a judge and you're going to be asked why you're

drawing the line here.

I guess you could raise the minimums for certain suspensions, but the issue that I think

is going to keep coming up here and it's going to be, it's the defining issue with trying

to get higher suspensions is in order to do that, someone's going to have to file a grievance,

you're going to have to fight for it.

Who would file that grievance last?

I don't know.

Part of the problem with this is the, there's an answer is protecting both.

That's the answer.

So the, the body that is responsible for trying to pursue that is the same body that represents

Greer and at some point, whenever there's a guy injured, we take the, you know, the sympathetic

look, I think for good reason, I'd be like, Hey, you know, someone has to stand up for

this guy.

But who's going to file that grievance on the players and say, Hey, we want all these,

all of our guys to get five games, 10 games to lose 20% of their salary to lose whatever

it might be sitting out these games because of this hit.

I don't think that's ever going to happen.

Well, no, and that's the problem is the, is the unions representing both the victim and

the perpetrator here, right?

It's a, it's a flawed system.

And I know the union has to represent all of its members.

Everyone who plays in the hockey game is a member of that union.

If, you know, if I was at work and I got decked by somebody who was in my union, it would

be complicated and weird.

I understand that.

But we have to figure out a way to better legislate this to, to be more consistent, to be more

severe and to actually get this stuff out of the game because this just keeps happening

because the punishments are so weak and pathetic.

Well, that's I think like what I wanted to talk about is I, I think that you can make

an argument they should be more severe.

I don't think it's going to happen at a dramatic scale.

Maybe you could go get this from three games to five or six.

I don't think it's ever going to be a 10, right?

Unless it's like a consistent repeat thing, which, which is a factor a little bit for

Greer.

He's a, he is considered a repeat offender here, but it's not on the level of like

a goodness or even like a Matt Rempio.

I think we're going to talk about in a second here.

The consistency I think can be missed.

I think that's one of the most common complaints is that it's completely wildly

inconsistent, but I went and looked for, I just searched, you know, NHL

boarding suspension and the plays that came up, you know, there's a couple

of recent ones, right?

So there's Miko Rantonen, you know, with, with what we talked about earlier this

year, he had the consecutive boarding penalties.

And so his was, I think, a mandatory suspension for that reason because he had

boarding penalties and consecutive games.

Obviously this hit, I would consider worse than either of the two ran and it's

against Alex Ramanov or I'm spacing on who the second one was against.

That he actually got the suspension for Matt Coronado.

So also against the flames here.

There was the JJ Moser one and that was two games and that was against the Florida

Panthers here.

And I think that's interesting because the, to me, the Moser hit is a more violent

hit. It's probably not a more dangerous hit, but it is like head right into the

dash or pressure applied.

It's fortunately, this is the instance where we talk about the proxies, it looks,

it looks worse.

Yeah, it looks worse.

Yeah, it's probably not as dangerous because the board and

some ways actually bracing and he's not going to crumple his neck in that way,

but it looks worse and that got two games.

If you go much beyond that with the Florida Panthers, they're going to go to

you and say, how did our guy only get the protection of two games and you're

going to give it against our guy for four, five, six, seven, double, triple the

suspension link.

So they gave him more, probably because Greer is a repeat offender, but both of

those two recent examples tell me that this actually is, we can have the debate

about severity, but it is consistent.

No, no, I always laugh when people say that it's not consistent because it is,

because they always under do it.

They never give out an adequate suspension.

You know, the one that I thought about was was a vandercane on

Nazum Kodri in the playoffs a few years ago in Edmonton.

And it was kind of that same thing where there was distance from the boards.

Yeah, when you hit a guy in the back four or five feet from the boards,

that's where the neck injury comes into play.

That's where they're really scary.

If you get smeared into the into the into the glass, that's not fun.

Nobody's looking for that, but it's not as dangerous.

Really, you just still get a concussion.

It's certainly dangerous, but the neck injuries that could happen when you get

flung into the board from distance is so much worse.

So that a vandercane hit on Kodri and King got one game.

Now we all know the rules.

One playoff game is two regular season games.

Yeah, still not enough, right?

It's still just two games.

And again, just because it was bad last time, doesn't make it good.

Doesn't make it right to be bad again.

Two wrongs don't make it right at some point.

And maybe this comes with a change of leadership at the Department of

Player Safety at some point, but we need to change the scale here.

We need to drop the hammer on some of these guys if we ever want to get

this stuff out of the game.

The penalties are just not severe enough.

Do you think that Greer in that moment, like he's not really battling for it?

And I think that's the most damn thing is this is not even the goodest one.

You can make an argument that he's scrambling to just trying to get any

piece of Matthews.

And I think you still need to be accountable and responsible for your your

body and your hits.

This one is not a scrambly play.

Like Greer has the time to gather himself here.

He's kind of been holding or hooking him on the way in and and

Zary breaks free and then he gives him the shove.

I don't know that I fully expected or if I was AJ Greer, I don't know that I

would be fully expecting it to be as bad as it was, but I think it's a case

where you're accountable for your body and for your your hits.

Right.

And it was it was a violent hit.

It didn't have the the arm pendulum swing that we were talking about with

the Moser hit, but it was a violent two handed shove.

And when you violently shove a guy who's bent over at the waist on ice

gates on a sheet of ice, what do we think is going to happen there?

But if there's no way he didn't think that guy was going down.

That play away from a corner, you see five, six times a game.

And I think that's like constantly what I think about when I look at

DPS decisions is that like, you know, one of the one of the things that

judge people crazy is the cross check, right?

And there can be some brutal cross checks in front of the net.

That do not get called.

And so then when you see one and you're like, well, how is that not more?

It's because there is some element of hockey play to some of these moves.

Even if it doesn't look like it, even if it's kind of like inconceivably like,

no, that he's not going for the puck.

He's just shoving this guy down.

We let defensemen shove guys down.

And the issue is where it was on the ice.

But if this occurred at center, ice, this is not a suspension of any kind.

It's a suspension because it's boarding because it's near the boards.

And I think that's like once you kind of established that we're in a framework

here of like, this is a problem.

If it's a little light, it's probably should have been a four or five gamer.

But I think the conversation shifts a little bit.

We're talking about, okay, it should have been one or two games longer instead of

this is a, they're allowing this horrible thing that they would never otherwise allow.

They actually do allow it elsewhere on the ice.

They do. That's true.

And the funny thing is they actually initially called this interference.

That's what the penalty was.

The puck was right there.

It was not interference like he was playing the puck and and

Greer was playing the body while Zari was playing the puck.

That's allowed.

It's the matter in which he approached playing the body.

That is, you know, you're going to guide directly in the numbers, basically

lower back and just shove him to the ice like that right near the boards.

I don't know.

I got five games.

I would have been more, I would have been happier with that than I would have with three.

But to me, that's seven, eight, nine games.

Only way we're going to see a change of the only way you're going to actually

affect change and change the way these guys think on the ice.

And we do need them thinking.

I know it's an instinctive sport, but you have to think in these moments.

I am near the boards.

He is bent over at the waist.

This is a dangerous hit.

And the only way to do that is to really knock him down for an eighth of a season,

a tenth of the season, take that money away from them.

Take those, you know, playoff race games away from them.

That's the only way that's going to get these guys to change their mindset.

Cause three games is nothing to drop in the bucket.

It might be the case.

I mean, you might be right that that is the line that would become, you know,

thoroughly enough disincentivized.

I just, I struggled to see them going that far when it would be a doubling or

tripling of all the past precedent.

And when you think about the money at stake and then that's obviously the

disincentive, I fully agree.

But the, the body that I think is, is the most likely to address this is the

body that you said represents both sides.

And that's why I don't think we will see like it, it get dramatically larger than

this.

I mean, maybe this is something that needs to be negotiated into the next CBA

because I think about, you know, 20, 30 years ago, you said bench clearing

brawls all the time.

Guys would leap over the boards and get involved in these line brawls and

there'd be 10, 20 guys out there.

Yep.

Then they changed the rules.

It's a 10 game suspension for leaving the bench now.

And it's five games for your coach, if you leave the bench, it is a massive

ridiculously over the top penalty to get involved in what happens, you know,

10 times a night.

But it changed the way people think it worked.

If you get dramatic with this, you can, we can get headshots out of the

game to like 90% degree.

If you just make it 20 goddamn games, if you hit a guy in the head, that's

the only way you do it.

And this league is never going to do it.

And the unions never going to go for it.

And I understand all that, but that doesn't make what they're doing right.

And it doesn't make it sufficient.

It's a very good point that, you know, there are examples of this that things

used to happen and as, you know, significant enough severe enough

punishment was established to deter it completely.

I mean, this is maybe a little different than that.

I think there's a little more pre, I don't know, decision to do.

Decide to jump off of the bench.

Like you're a little more, you're in a seated position.

Your time to meditate, yeah, pre-meditate.

That's the word I was looking for.

But I, like, this is a bad hit.

Like I think it should have been another game or two that more than it was.

And this is like, I think one of the more dangerous plays in hockey.

I, when I see a guy go down two feet from the boards, you cringe every single

time because you just don't know what's going to happen when the head hits.

And if the neck, you know, is, is in a vulnerable position.

It's one of the scariest plays in hockey.

Yeah, and we need to start legislating the hit, not the result of the hit.

It's got to be the intention and the act.

It can't just be, oh, this guy wasn't hurt.

So we don't need to suspend this guy.

That's nonsense.

Oh, for sure.

I mean, you can get hurt and it goes the other way, too.

You can get hurt on a play that wasn't a penalty at all.

And we're not going to be suspending guys for that.

And so likewise, certainly, you can't be saying, oh, well, he, because he didn't get hurt,

we're going to let him get away with it.

No, because the next guy might get hurt.

I mean, the rant and then sequence earlier this year, like he gets nothing

for the first one on Ramana.

I thought you should have got a game for that.

The mandatory one only came because it was two boarding pounds.

We don't know if he would have gotten a penalty on the Coronado hit at all.

If it wasn't a mandated thing for the two consecutive games with a major penalty for boarding.

So you might have, Matt Coronado might have avoided that play.

Had they suspended me, would have avoided that play?

Had they suspended me, go, and then for the Ramana of hits.

So I just wanted to say Zary's day to day.

So to your point, like this one, he was not injured.

And we don't know if that factored him.

And you brought a Matt Rampi.

He had the eight game suspension for him.

Yes.

He had a hit on Miro Heiscanin.

And now that was, that wasn't that, I think that was a reputational suspension, right?

Because that hit wasn't so bad.

That was a close-up hit.

Like when you hit a guy against the boards and he's already basically against the boards,

you're not doing a lot of damage.

Rampi is massive, but it wasn't violent.

He didn't swing his arms.

It wasn't a two-handed shove.

He just used his gigantic body to smush Miro Heiscanin against the boards.

He got eight games for it just because he was Matt Rampi.

The other part of that was they ruled that it was both boarding and elbowing.

So I assume that went into it too, that it was like you violated this on every level.

But I agree.

I thought the Rampi on Heiscanin was less dangerous than Greer on Zary.

And so that one, I think, it's a reputation.

And you know what?

To your point again, they gave me games.

We don't hear a whole lot about Matt Rampi's suspensions anymore and it haven't really since.

So I think you have a point.

I'm just trying to, you know, kind of say why I think it historically has not gone that way

and why I think it is more consistent than we give credit for sometimes.

I agree with you.

He will not change because this is the NHL.

I'm just saying it should.

Yeah.

All right.

Let's take a quick break right there.

When we get back, we'll have a happier conversation, I think, about one of the most exciting

hockey teams of the last two months.

We're doing it at an interesting time.

I will grant.

But Aaron Portz, I'll be with us when we get back from the break.

Talk about the Columbus Projects.

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All right, we are back and I feel a little bad at last.

I think we're going to jinx or we did jinx the Columbus Blue Jackets tonight because

we knew we wanted to have Aaron Porzlianon to talk about the Blue Jackets.

They've been the hottest team west of Buffalo for the last two months.

And as soon as we booked 40, I see you there, Porty, as soon as we booked it, of course,

the Blue Jackets get shut out by the New York Islanders tonight, but they are still in

a playoff spot.

They have still been red hot.

40.

The biggest reason is Rick bonus, right?

Rick bonus has to be came in January 12th.

They were 1997 and they've been on a tear since then.

I've got the 18 with tonight 18, three and four under bonus in his time here.

So I mean, if barely two months and they've turned it around, yeah, it's all over the

place.

It started with communication.

It started with him demanding more engaged defensive play, which is the sexy answer, but

that's resulted in more offense.

And life is better for the goalies.

Elvis Merzlikens, even his steady, but Jet Greaves looks like a star now.

And yeah, it's just, this team is kind of playing how they thought they could play.

And you know, Jim Domino made the change.

It's a, it's a bold move in the middle of the season, but he doesn't make that change.

If he doesn't think that this team should have been performing better than they were.

And I thought it was a little early.

I thought maybe it would wait till the Olympic break, but he didn't think it could because

he thought this thing would be a lost cause if they waited much longer.

Turns out he was right.

It's really crazy.

I mean, on January 10th, Columbus was dead last in the conference.

They were behind the Rangers.

They were at what nine points out they had by far the least amount of regulation wins

in the conference.

They had no chance of making the playoffs.

And here they are showing you actually can make up ground in the NHL, even with the loser

point out that you just have to win every single night.

How does Rick bonus?

How does one guy come in?

I was looking at some of the numbers in those 24, 25 games, whatever it's been since bonuses

come in.

You got 10 guys with the least four goals.

You got six guys with the least six goals.

I know Connor darlin's not going to shoot 30% forever, but how does a coach get this

much offense out of a team?

We see Barry trots come in and make a team defensively sound.

How does a guy come in and make a team offensively dangerous?

Yeah.

Well, strangely enough by making them better defensively, they have the puck now.

They work harder to get the puck.

They check now.

I sound like Ken freaking Hitchcock here.

Actually, Rick bonus sounds like Ken Hitchcock a lot if you just look at the transcript.

If you listen to how he says it, it's much more congenial.

It's much more, it's said with a, he has like this default smile, you know what I mean?

And I think guys like Marcchenko and Fantilly certainly is a guy that's really up to his play

defensively.

There are others.

But this team finished seventh in the league and scoring last year.

They scored as many goals as the Maple Leafs did.

And that got missed a lot because they missed the playoffs.

There's some offensive talent here.

Werenzki Marcchenko, Fantilly had 31 goals last year as a 20 year old.

There's some firepower here, but they were, they were playing without the puck so much.

They were gagging up leads in the third period at an alarming rate.

There's probably 10 plus points that they've left out there by blowing leads in the third

period.

So confidence was absolutely an issue.

And bonus doesn't say we're going to try to do this.

We don't, there's no real problem.

It's just bad bounces and this and that, which is what they heard before.

What Rick bonus says is we know what the problem is.

This is what the problem is and we're going to fix it.

And again, that's the same kind of stuff that Tordorello would say, Hitchcock would say.

The coaches who've had the most success here.

Bones delivers it in a much more appealing way, especially to today's players.

But it's essentially the same message.

You check to create offense.

You defend.

You work hard to get the puck back.

You can't just rely on your skill, the national oculi.

And I think they've taken that message to heart.

I want to go back to Greaves because to me he's one of the big stories here.

Three, three, four years ago, Elvis Merzlikens was the rising great hope of the Columbus Blue Jackets

Post-Pobrovsky.

And it didn't stay that way.

And that was my biggest fear about the Blue Jackets direction was like this was supposed

to be the answer in goal and it wasn't materializing.

Greaves had a storied AHL career.

But like when did it start to turn to this level where he's been a bankable like every

night starter in the NHL?

You know, it's so great about Greaves and I hope I don't go on too much with this because

it's one of my favorite topics.

He came to rookie camp in Traverse City and actually we're probably there as an invite.

Wasn't drafted.

Played well.

Okay, kid, we'll keep your name, you know, how the rookie tournaments are.

They signed him the next year when he was still in junior with numbers.

The frankly weren't that great entry level deal, invited to the rookie camp.

There was really, and I don't, I would say this to Jed, I think he would probably agree.

At the time, there was no expectation that this was going to be a national hockey league

goalie and then it was the East Coast league and they put that before him and he devoured

it.

They brought him to the AHL.

He's only going to be a backup in the AHL.

This is who he is.

He devoured that and kept just kept pushing for more and more and more and every little

thing they've put in front of him, he's not only met but exceeded and one of the things

with the struggling franchise, right, a franchise that's in a tough spot is they either don't

wait or they can't wait long on players that are having the least little bit of success.

And if Jet Greaves were a draft pick, a first, second round or whatever, he was a player

that they had high expectations for, there's no way he would have developed and been able

to develop and allowed to develop as long as he did in the American hockey league.

So they're own, I think they're own sort of skepticism or doubt towards who this player

could be in a weird way, help them develop him the right way by just letting him play

in the American hockey league.

I mean, you would hear people would say, we're not, I mean, maybe we call him up for a

spot start, but that's not the answer, right?

And then you go back to Cleveland and went eight in a row with three shut outs and he's

a beloved player in Cleveland, he's a beloved player here, he's a wonderful person, he's

the kind of guy that people root for in the dressing room and we've seen that already.

He's a great story.

He's a great story.

He's dad's a firefighter, dad played Golly, plays Golly in a men's league and it's, yeah,

it's great.

He's really grabbed things and run with them.

Not a rookie.

He'd be really, I think, challenging, shape with the look of the year with his numbers,

but he's played too many games previously to count as a rookie.

It's the small Golly effect, right?

I mean, like none of us want to believe in these 6-0 goalies and now you got, Alex, I don't

think it's quite as small, but like another guy just, he was in the HL forever and now he

finally gets the runway and Buffalo and he's leading the way.

It's pretty incredible.

I think it's Busy.

What?

Me look.

Is he 6-1?

Brandon Busy is, they list him at 6-4, I think that's generous.

Oh, really?

That's really true.

Might be 6-2.

Yeah.

Okay.

Columbus has to lead the league in likeable Golly's between him and the Merce-Leakins.

I mean, what a tandem.

That is to work with.

As a bead rider.

Oh, I see.

Yeah.

Wow.

Elvis.

Yep.

We have had some doosies.

That's for sure.

He was my favorite guy to talk to at the Olympics.

I went to him like four different times for stories that had nothing to do with him.

I just wanted to talk to Elvis and Merce-Leakins.

Yeah.

He was fantastic.

Right.

But tell me about Charlie Coil.

He had this incredible goal binge right when bonus was hired and came in.

But his defense and I mean, he is maybe the leading selfie trophy candidate right now.

Since bonus has been in running things, he's only been on the ice for 11 goals against

at 5 on 5.

I mean, his defensive numbers are terrific.

He's really owned that third line center spot.

What has he meant to this team this year?

What void did he fill?

Yeah.

Well, that's going to be the Monday gathering lead is the players on this team with several

boards.

And Charlie Coil, I think, does deserve the selfie or at least lengthy consideration for

it.

He, first of all, he is such a, I've always thought this before he played here, one of the

most underrated players in the game.

Every team he's on, he's never missed the playoffs and that tells me something.

He's never missed the playoffs for 14 years.

He is a luxury as a third line center and one of the things that probably isn't appreciated

in enough in Columbus is that this organization for 25 years has never had enough depth

at center.

They've never had high quality centers, usually it's at the top.

Sometimes they have a decent one or two center, but that has been a weakness forever.

And now to have Fantilly emerge, Monahan, Charlie Coil, Boone Jenner is the fourth line center

on this team.

He was the first line center two years ago.

That's how much things have changed here.

Charlie Coil, I think there could be a revolt in that dressing room if he is not resigned.

And ownership was very care ownership GM Don what else, very careful.

He didn't even really get into contract talks with those players.

It's him, it's Jenner, it's Marchman, didn't want to upset the apple cart, didn't want

to sign one guy and not the other.

But Charlie Coil has centered a line with Syllinger with Olivier.

That is the third line, but they use it.

It's become a scoring line a lot of nights, mostly because of Coil, but Olivier's got

14 goals again.

It checks, it can defend, it can possess the puck and Charlie Coil is just a really smart

guy.

The power play numbers since January 6th, it's one of the top 10 power plays in the league.

And what happened on January 6th, not that January 6th, this January 6th is Charlie Coil

came in and joined the Blue Jackets first playoff unit.

And just having him in the middle, the right shot, they wanted him because of his presence,

his leadership, all of those great things.

They also wanted a right shot to take face offs and they finally figured out to put his

right shot on the power play.

It's really open things up and that unit has been dangerous.

I think better than its numbers would suggest, but it's still a top 10 unit in the NHL

since that January 6th Coil inclusion, if you will.

Yeah.

I want to go to Zach Borensky here because he had such an outstanding year last year.

He made my heart ballad.

He was runner up for the Norris.

And all he's done this year is get himself on pace to surpass those.

I'm thinking very strongly about him at the very top of my Norris ball at this time around.

I just wanted to get a little bit of your take on Borensky sees it and you know, you

don't often hit a new level up at this point in a career, usually that happens at like

24.

Yeah.

Can I read my Monday gathering for you?

Please.

You know, so I think there's a couple things here.

I think there's a few reasons why I think he may have a better shot of the Norris this

year.

I think there are more people that more people are going to vote for.

I don't think it's just McCarr this time around.

Like I think Schaeffer is going to take some votes.

I think Hudson's going to take some votes.

Montreal is going to vote for Hudson, right?

I think there's going to be some votes for Schaeffer.

Queen Hughes.

Queen Hughes for sure is going to get some votes, especially the way he should, the way

that the Minnesota has turned around.

I think Borensky, I think with these awards and we've seen it before, you have to have

a great season to get yourself in the conversation first.

And when you're in the conversation, sometimes you stay in the conversation longer than you

deserve to, but you've got to get into that conversation first.

I think last season got Borensky into that conversation and now people are paying attention

to him.

The other thing I think is going to be really big is everybody has seen that golden goal

by Jack Hughes.

Everybody saw the play that Borensky made out paddling Nathan Freakin McKinnon, that

is a hell of a play.

Hughes gets the credit because he scored the golden goal, of course, but you've seen it

a million times, I'm sure.

The play that Borensky makes to get the puck from McKinnon, to pass the puck basically

right at McDavid's feet, I think.

And I double HF play is not supposed to impact the Norris, but Damnit, people saw that, right?

And it burns in people's mind.

I think he's going to, I'm not sure he wins it again this year, I'm not sure there's

a better candidate this year.

And last year it was hard to look at Kale McCarr's goals and not be blinded by those goals

because it's a stunning number.

He's right there with everybody now, points goals, leads the way or second maybe in

ice time.

So he's got a hell of a resume and I think he's really put himself in the back of people's

minds, maybe in the front of people's minds now.

I think you nailed it.

The Norris more than any other award is a narrative award, right?

It's always whose turn is it?

It always feels like that's what we're doing.

And not only is it Borensky's turn, but he also deserves it.

And that's the perfect storm for how you win your first Norris.

And then once you win your first Norris, you're in the Norris conversation until you retire

basically.

Right.

So I think, I think you're right, this is going to be a year.

Let me ask you about, I mean, not to again, spoil your story, but Rick bonus.

Can you win coach of the year having only coached like 30 some odd games?

So little research on this today, there have been three coaches who have come on mid season

and have won the Jack Adam, not mid season in the season that have won the Jack Adams.

It's rare, but it has happened.

No one's come along as late as he did.

I think one thing that will really help bonus is I have yet to meet anybody.

It does not like Rick bonus.

He's worked for a ton of teams.

These are broadcasters who vote on this, right?

Remember that.

Don't blame the writers on this one.

But broadcasters love bonus.

He was one.

He worked at TNT before he got back into the coaching biz here.

I think that helps him.

But I also think Werenzki, I think Coil and I think bonus, all of it obviously depends.

They have to make the playoffs.

That carries so much weight with voters.

None of it happens.

I don't think any of them win any of them if they don't win, if they don't get into the

playoffs.

But if they do get into the playoffs, I think people will consider all of them.

I think bonus absolutely deserves it, but there are lots of candidates out there this year

too.

It's interesting, because we're going to have a similar conversation about Buffalo and

Executive of the year.

And is it to ZYARMO get it for basically everything that was done by Kevin Adams?

This is at least different because it's bonuses.

You can clearly see the bonus impact out there, but the answer to any problem in the NHL

seems to be fire someone.

Yes.

That's been a punch line.

Like the answer to everything is just go fire someone.

Right now it actually is the answer to everything.

Isn't it funny too?

Like you hear players say all the time, like coaches can only do so much.

I say that.

Like I've just been proven completely McClellan in my market, right?

Sip sort of deal.

I was very coaching agnostic and now it's like, well, I see it every day and it's happening

in Columbus.

Yeah.

I remember hitch taking over here.

And the first day they practice Rick Nash on the penalty kill.

We're all like, this guy's crazy.

Like Rick Nash killing penalties.

That's not a thing.

It cannot be a thing.

And he turned out to be one of the best penalty killers in the NHL in his career.

It's completely changed his game.

Yeah.

Hitches matter.

John Torturelle is the same thing.

Oh my god.

This guy is a lunatic.

And within like two weeks, the players in the room absolutely loved him.

Other times they wanted to murder him, but they loved him and they played their asses

off for him.

They made the playoffs four years in a row, under torts, which this organization's never

done.

But what they, where they differ in kind of demeanor, bonus in Torturelle, they re-diverge

or re-converge on experience.

They've both just seen a lot.

And I think that's the secret sauce to all of this is when you've seen every kind of

situation, you know what buttons to put in.

And like bonus to 71 and like, you know what?

Hell with that dude.

71.

He looks like he's about 54.

He kind of looks like Lou Graham a little bit from four or two.

He's got that 70s boat.

Tell me he's not yacht rock on his boat in the port.

Right.

I'm expecting that story sometime around August from you, so I'm going to go, I'm going

to go to the bride of the boat with him this heat water.

He was a head coach in the NHL in the 1980s, the 1980s.

He has seen like five different NHLs.

You know why you got fired for Boston?

Because he was told he talked to the players too much directly.

That's how long ago it was that he was the coach.

You're supposed to fear your coach, not burst with them.

Unbelievable.

That's so good.

All right.

We better let Porti get out of here so we can go keep covering the hottest team in

the NHL, the Columbus Blue Jackets.

Thank you so much for doing this with this party.

Before we do, I just wanted to give our thoughts and condolences to the family

of Jesse Pearson.

And that's, that is a tragic story and a beautiful story on our site today by

Mike Russo and Joe Smith, that we would highly encourage everyone to check out our thoughts

are with them.

Hey, this is Adam Grant, host of Ted's podcast, rethinking with Adam Grant.

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All right, we are back in LASA.

Before we head out today, I just wanted to talk about a really extrapolate on a story

that we ran on the athletic over the weekend about what's at stake for some of these teams.

Some of them the answer is nothing.

I thought that was very funny reading through them today and see how many markets were

like, nah, there's no stakes here anymore.

But there are some teams where those stakes are very high and I'm in one of those markets

LAS where in Detroit right now, they officially fell out of a playoff spot when the islanders

moved it back ahead of them with their win over the Blue Jackets just a few minutes ago

as we record this.

And I haven't really scrolled around to see how the fans of Detroit are taking it, but

I know they are.

Super well, I bet.

They are living and dying every period, let alone every game right now.

So it is, it's high stakes hockey here as the ribings try to break a nine year playoff

drone.

I mean, the stakes all across the league, there's a lot of teams, especially in that Eastern

conference, a lot of teams that are fighting to get in for the first time in a while.

But honestly, I went through that list and the one that stands out to me is the Florida

Panthers.

They're top 10 pick, they traded a top 10 pick to the Black Oaks along with Spencer Knight

to get Seth Jones last year and they're not going to regret that they won the Stanley

Cup and Seth Jones played a big role.

But that pick is top 10 protected and right now the Panthers are kind of right on that line.

I think they're right now there at number nine, but they're neck and neck with like Seattle

and San Jose, LA, New Jersey, all these teams that could change that up.

And if they can get a top 10 pick and hold on to it.

This is a team that's expecting to get right back into the mix next year, right?

This is a team that, you know, we could look at the Brad Martian contract and say, oh,

boy, I don't know about that one.

But this is still a team with a bunch of guys signed in their primes to team friendly

deals.

Sasha Barkov comes back next year, Matthew could chuckle be healthy after his first long

summer in a while.

This could still be a Stanley Cup contender next year and Stanley Cup contenders don't

get to add top 10 picks.

So in the turns of the long game here, I feel like the Florida Panthers mini tank and

players don't tank organizations do players don't I understand that this is a huge deal

if you're a Florida Panthers fan right now to make sure you get to keep that pick is next

years might be the 28th pick.

So you're saying that the Florida Panthers actually would be okay with a longer suspension

for AJ Greer.

I'm not sure AJ Greer is the guy that's going to really make the difference in that.

But yes.

Yeah.

Now it's interesting to because of the 10 range in this draft.

Like if you ask Scott and Corey about the tearing of their lists, you can go look.

It's right around eight, nine, you're getting a premium prospect if you're picking in

that eight to 10 range with the Panther, which the Panthers still have a chance of doing

right now.

And you're right.

Like that's the only way to keep a dynasty like theirs or I won't use the word a wagon

like theirs rolling at a high level is to keep loading up and they've traded away so

many assets.

There's almost no way for them to do it barring something like this and imagine if you're

Chicago.

You're going to have a top five of your own.

You might have two top 10 picks in this draft or you might have one and then like the

number 27 pick next year.

Like this is a huge deal for two franchises, neither of which has any hope of making the

playoffs.

It's very funny.

Like there's a player in this draft, Ethan Belches and he's he's a Florida Panther.

If you've if you've ever seen one, right?

He is a big physical skilled winger place for the Windsor Spitfires.

And I just pulled up a tankathon to see where they sit.

Right in line, the mock draft right now has them taking Ethan Belches.

There you go.

The world will will explode.

I think if if this is the way it plays out, imagine if they win the lottery and they

get just get number one, it's just anything that could happen with the Florida Panthers.

They are they are charmed or cursed depending on who you talk to.

Yeah.

I think there's some other teams that that I think have very high stakes to and maybe we

could circle back to the Redvings toward the end of this and then flesh that out.

But the Pittsburgh Penguins is one that coming into the year.

I certainly.

An early season episode that we did and we were talking with with Rob Rossy about it and

the penguins and I was very ready to just say like this season is pointless for them.

They need to trade everybody that might have actually been a prospect series.

I don't know if it was with Robert.

I probably were talking Gavin McKenna since since the middle of the summer for the Pittsburgh

Penguins.

And somehow here they are and not only that like they're in line to potentially have home

vice advantage in the first half of the playoffs.

Like this is a legitimately good team.

I owe a may a culpa there.

Especially when they what they were able to do without Sydney Crosby.

I have been thoroughly impressed.

I'm still not sure that at how long of a run that they can really go on.

But it's very hard to continue questioning them at this point.

I think you should trade Sydney Crosby like you were planning to anyway.

He's clearly not that important to the team.

There's there's the takeaway from all this don't don't make that the social clip.

It's a it would be a validation.

I think of how they've approached things that they're able to kind of start this rebuild

without completely punting and tanking.

I still think at some point they're going to have to pick really high and it's up you

always have to pay the bill at some point.

But as long as you're getting into the playoffs with Sydney Crosby without mortgaging the future

at which they've done they've found a way to kind of get younger better more strategically

position for the future and not sacrifice the present.

I'm floored by what a good job Kyle Dubas has done.

Absolutely.

I'm fascinated to see what the long term effect of this penguin season and this ruin season

to a lesser extent this islander season because they did luck into a number one overall

pick.

But does this end the era of just these tear downs I'd like Detroit had like Buffalo had

like Edmonton had like Chicago had like San Jose had Anaheim to a degree does this end

that because oh man we don't have to go through nine years of abject misery in order to

get good again.

I mean it helps to have a core to build around but like I'm curious to see if this changes

the way not just GM's think but ownership things because owners are the ones who allow

these GM's to tear everything down and give them these long leash.

If I'm the only if I'm like Danny words in Chicago I'm looking like well what the hell

did they do over there why couldn't we have done that when we had Patrick Kane and Alex

to bring it and Dylan Strom why is this taking the years when we could have just done that.

If that is the case I don't know if that's going to be the case or not but if that is

the case it's going to be fascinating for what it means for teams like the Chicago's

in the next year or two like you know all these teams that are now on the rise that have

spent all this time stockpiling capital expecting to be able to at some point trade either

those prospects or their future picks for ready made players there's no more free agency

you're not getting you know veteran health that way.

You really have to rely on teams that are starting a tear down to get better and build

up with veteran players if teams kind of stop tanking I'm fascinated what that's going

to mean for for how teams like your Chicago's like your San Jose's that are starting to

come out of these rebuilds and how they approach it.

Absolutely 100% like the black dogs have made it clear that they're basically just doing

this exclusively through the draft like they've had 11 first round picks in four years

they've got two more coming potentially this year two more the next year but you know

they how many have to hit for you to actually be able to build a championship team without

real free agency without there being a Mary and Jose you can add to supercharger rebuild

right so like it's going to be really fascinating to see how this this summer plays this

summer could be absolute chaos because there might be a lot of guys with term getting

traded or absolutely nothing might happen I'm fascinated to see how this will all play out.

I'm living it right now in Detroit I mean they they've tried to do that style of rebuild

right and eventually you know that they've gotten to a point now where you know they traded

a first round pick for Alex to bring get a couple years ago kind of a unique case like

star player with the hometown ties and they had a second first round pick that they traded

this year was the first time that they traded their own first round pick under Steve

and they traded it to St. Louis for Justin Falk I like that move I still think that's

a good move but they might miss the playoffs and that pick may be a lottery pick and it's

probably going to be like the 15th or 16th pick but it could still move up as high as five or six

and if they don't make the play out the only way that can happen is if they don't make the playoffs

and you don't make the playoffs and you've traded your first round pick I mean I talk about

the high stakes that is a really uncomfortable position because you find yourself just hoping that

these guys are these these young players are going to click I mean I thought this would be the

year Nate Danielson really clicked he got some games still spent a lot of the year in the AHL

spent a lot of the year hurt you don't know when it's going to happen for these guys even the top 10

guys and it's tough to because I look I've been very critical of the iser plan I think it's been

ridiculously long and and they were still they were still trading guys for first round picks

recently is last year I think so I've been critical but this is a good team that's going to have

mid 90s points if this team was in the Pacific division they're running away with the division

and they're looking at them as as as a potential final four team the east is so strange this year

that I the red beans could finish ninth and it could feel like a disaster but it actually was

the step forward that they needed that that one was waiting for to get to that tier because 95 96 97

points that should get you into the playoffs and this year in Eastern converts it might not so it's

it's kind of like the red beans are doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing but so are

nine other teams and it's really complicating the the big picture you know analysis of what these

teams are that's the frustration here right and then one of my preseason bold predictions this year

was that they would finish with I don't know if I said 92 or 93 I think I said 92 because that's a

number that would have gotten them in in each of the last two years and that they would still miss

this year and I thought that that was possible because of the way that the east was kind of structured

there was no real heavy weights but there was a lot of teams on the rise I thought that it was

possible they were going to have a number that would have gotten them in in the past and wouldn't get

them in this year I'd never in a million years would have thought that number could be 97 or 98

points which looks entirely possible I mean they would be leading the Pacific division right now

as would basically every team in the Atlantic and and yet they're not in a playoff spot and I think

that's going to make it a really complicated offseason if they're not able to get it done because

how do you assess that do you they would have taken a step forward by like 12 or 13 points they would

have been a team that in years past would have been a divisional seed with that point total and yet

by definition they wouldn't be one of the top eight teams in the eastern conference you know I have

no reason to think that Steve Iserman's on like a hot seat and so you talked about kind of the

the criticism of the Iser plan hot seat in that traditional sense at least where it's like right

you keep your job but yet the public pressure I think is just going to keep until they get into

the playoffs the public pressure is going to just ratchet up and up and up I see it every single day

I get I've been getting tweets from fans for like eight years now and I can tell you the

temperature is as hot as it's been it's it's not quite you know at the level of like with the

Toronto Maple Leafs were experiencing in the first round year after year but the Red Wings fan

bases reaction to the month of March and anytime something goes wrong in the month of March is

significant and notable and it's only going to get worse if it happens again this year absolutely

in the western coverage of the complete opposite end of the spectrum teams that are just

guarantee to make the playoffs and have been making the playoffs I think there's a lot of

stake for Colorado and Dallas to a less degree Minnesota I don't think Minnesota can win that

division at this point I think there's too much ground to make up but Dallas you know Colorado is

running away with this thing and Dallas got right up on their heels with that incredible like it was

like 1401 run they went on Dallas you think get out of that first round matchup with Minnesota

and let Colorado worry about that that is a huge deal for a team that has to win right now that

has been to the conference final three straight years but has not reached the Stanley Cup final

if they can get that top seed and place some garbage team from the Pacific division or whoever

gets in as the as the fifth place central division team that is a huge advantage because that first

round matchup between their Dallas or Minnesota or Colorado or Minnesota is going to be an absolute

knock down dragout war that's going to take a big chunk out of one of those teams so getting out

of second place in the central and winning the central division if Dallas can do that that is a

massive massive deal and it's just as massive for Colorado which lost in the first round last year

to Dallas to secure that first place mid and avoid that same pitfall themselves. Totally and

those are the right two teams to identify there because those are both all in win now teams and I

think Dallas is a team like they're young enough they have enough good young players that they'll

still be around for a while but we know the Boston Roberts is coming back this is their best chance

this year right now I agree and in Colorado same deal I mean they were one of the best teams we've

ever seen through the early part of this season and it's certainly even a month ago if you

told me they're not going to win their division I would have been I would have you know not even

retained the idea now it's at least in play and it's going to be fascinating down the stretch you

know Minnesota you're right it's kind of in the sweet spot here where they look you know completely

on the rise they're the team the Colorado and Dallas have to be worried about because if they keep

Quinn Hughes and you're able to go forward with Capri's off Hughes favor boldly they're going to

have to find a center at some point we all know that they have as good of a core in the league I

think is anyone right now yes hundred percent but that's also a fan base that has seen it a first

round loss like every year for the last millennium it feels like so they have all this excitement and

they have a really great team they have the they have the third best team in the league if you ask me

I'm I they're better than any team in the east in my mind if they go out and they lose to Dallas in

five or six games or they lose to Colorado in five or six games that's going to be crushing for

a fan base that deserves better and wants more even though yes they are they are better situated

in the long run I think we all think Quinn Hughes is kind of falling from Minnesota and is going to

stick around long term they are situated to be good for a long long time but man it would be such a

let down such a buzzkill if they can't get out of the first round again this year it would and

and you know we're going to go back to the Leafs I guess a little bit with this but it there was

an element to that too in the Toronto saga where you know they were okay clearly better in some of

those series that they still lost and it was you know the famous quote was like there was more

respect in the handshake line and that obviously is not a good quote to have out there and yet I

completely understood what it was because I respected them more after watching that series too

and I could see something like that happening with Minnesota where I'm willing to write it off

and say oh well there this is not the same five or six game or seven game even first round

losses what we've seen in the years past and yet you know how how much are people going to tolerate

my guess is Minnesotans will be a little more patient with them I don't know man I that's a

fan base I'm well acquainted with over the years I I covered three straight black Hawks well wins

over them in 13 14 to 15 well they want to win they are they are they're desperate for it they

need it it's been they it's such a great fan base and they've had nothing to celebrate basically

the entire existence of this incarnation of the franchise and it's funny because like you know

I'm I'm an advocate for going to 116 seating to saying to to punish the Pacific Division for

what they are and to let more Eastern teams and this is a perfect example of what I've been

harping on for years is you do have years like this at the least go to one eight but and I

hate to say this it kills me to say this I sort of agree with Gary Batman the NHL first round

the Stanley Cup playoffs first round is so far in a way the best round of the Stanley Cup playoffs

it's so much better than other playoffs first rounds because of this kind of matchup that we get

because the series go longer because it's unfair it's it makes for better entertainment the first round

is so much fun it's chaos is four games a night there's all these great series and then the second

rounds like oh god we still got like six weeks left of this this isn't that exciting I did a

ratchet's up again in the conference final the Stanley Cup playoffs first round is the best

round in all of sports except for maybe the first weekend of the NCAA tournament so Gary

Batman is not wrong and oh my god it's painful to say that when he says that this playoff system

does what it wants to do it it accomplishes its goal yeah because the conference finals and the

cup final sell themselves so all you got to avoid is what the NBA has which is knowing that all

your first round series are pretty much going five games meaningless they're just they're worthless

yeah but I took to go back to Minnesota like I'm not disputing with their desperate and I think

they're they deserve to be desperate I think they're good enough that they can I think they

win the Stanley Cup they can win the cup absolutely I think they go in the Stanley Cup but I'm just

saying like because of the positive momentum I don't think it's quite the same stakes there

as it is in the other places because I think everyone would agree that it's arrow up in Minnesota

and that they should be here for some a few years to come yet with with more and more improving

quality chances that's fair how about Edmonton speaking of arrow up it depends they have to make

the playoffs here yeah they have to make the playoffs it's true I like I thought about bringing

them up earlier but I was like well do they have that highest stakes in the regular season but

yeah if we're talking about you know doubting whether they're going to make the playoffs and in

fairness like they are five points up on the Nashville predators right now the predators have a

game in hand it's a little hairy there we've talked about them all year though in the light of

just get in and then it's it's McDavid and dry side all the sure the rest of it doesn't matter

they got a lot of that lead without Leon dry side all too yeah and they should get dry

side all back for the playoffs at some point at least in the playoffs and uh you know it is at

the end of days if the Edmonton Oilers go in and they have to have a really tough first round series

no but I certainly wouldn't want the one against Colorado like I think Connor McDavid can beat

anybody but you are you are in the Connor McDavid prove to me we can still win phase these might be

the most important years most important two or three seasons in the history of the Edmonton Oilers

short of the cup years oh I'm not saying that going out in the first round wouldn't be a disaster

I'm just saying like I still think they could win a series against anyone in the NHL because they

have Connor McDavid so I'm saying like if they they also with Colorado that's still it's you

know you still have a chance in that series yes and and in that specific division they can still

make it to the conference final relatively easily oh yeah but they could also miss the playoffs and

oh my god that would be quite a scene if they get a divisional seed I'm gonna expect them in the

conference finals like it as long as that they're as long as their path is through the pacific and

not through the central that's right gonna be big Vegas is trash and I'm not there yet San Jose's

not there yet I mean Edmonton's the only team in there you can have any faith in whatsoever

which is shocking to say after they made one of the worst trades of the NHL season

somehow trading we we asked for a coley trade and the genie had a cruel sense of humor on that

was one of the monkey paws curling yeah 100% all right let's let's wrap there a good show today

thank you to Aaron Portes line for joining us on this one you can the shons will be with you on

Wednesday as well as Frankie Carrotto don't want to leave him out there we'll talk to you soon

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