Why Trump wants to ‘take’ Cuba

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This is On Point. I'm Megna Chakrabardi. President Donald Trump's hegemonic thirst continues

unabated the list so far Greenland at the end of 2025 and the beginning of this year Trump said he

would take Greenland quote one way or the other and that it would happen quote whether they like it or

not. He dismissed Danish control of Greenland, but the Danes did not dismiss Trump's invasion threat.

In fact, just today Danish public media dr reports that in mid-January Danish military forces

were deployed to Greenland, including with blood transfusion supplies and explosives. A military

source tells dr quote there was no possible ambiguity end quote to both the Danish deployment

and the reason why dr reports that the troops were sent to protect Greenland immediately after

Trump's January 3rd military operation in Venezuela that captured former president Nicholas Maduro.

Quote when Trump says all the time that he wants Greenland and then we see what happens in

Venezuela we had to take all possible scenarios seriously end quote then of course there's

Venezuela as mentioned Trump ordered a unilateral attack on Caracas that led to the successful

capture of former president Nicholas Maduro in early January Maduro currently awaits trial

in New York. Venezuela's current leader Delsey Rodriguez was Maduro's vice president. Her

politics aren't all that different from Maduro's Rodriguez however is willing to cooperate with Trump

and then of course Iran. The US Israel war with Iran is spiraling out of Trump's control.

Just yesterday Israel bombed the southpars gas field a significant escalation in the war.

Iran immediately retaliated attacking Qatar's Ross Lafayn industrial city. Trump claimed that the US

knew nothing about Israel's bombing plan but military sources tell a variety of US news outlets

that Trump did know and approved of the bombing. Along truth social the president flailed.

Last night in one post he acknowledged the danger of attacking one of the world's largest natural

gas fields then he also lashed out at Israel writing in all caps quote no more attacks will be made

by Israel end quote then in that same post he lashed out at Iran saying that if it continued its

retaliatory attacks on Qatar the US would quote massively blow up the entirety of the south

gas field at an amount of strength and power that Iran has never seen or witnessed before end

quote. Now I'm going through all of this because it's the backdrop for today's show because none

of the above has quenched the president's thirst for domination. Just this week on Monday he said

I do believe I'll be the honor of having the honor of taking Cuba to be good on that's a big

honor taking Cuba taking Cuba in some form yeah taking Cuba I mean whether I free it take it

I could do anything I want with it you want another to them a very weak intonation

and here he is just a day later Tuesday well Cuba right now is very bad shape they're talking to

Marco and we'll be doing something with Cuba very soon the president's referring to of course

Secretary of State Marco Rubio who also weighed in on Tuesday the bottom line is their economy

doesn't work it's a non-functional economy it's an economy that has survived it's in the

for 40 that revolution it's not even a revolution that thing they have has survived on subsidies

from the Soviet Union and now from Venezuela they don't get subsidies anymore so there are

a lot of trouble and the people in charge they don't know how to fix it so they have to get new people

in charge in fact Cuba and the United States have actually been in talks for at least the past couple

of weeks and that's because approximately three months ago the U.S. effectively imposed an oil

blockade on Cuba amongst other things now after those most recent comments from the Trump administration

the current president of Cuba Miguel Diaz Canal fired back he wrote on ex quote the U.S. publicly

threatens Cuba almost daily with the forceful overthrow of its constitutional order Cuba has

one guarantee any external aggressor will encounter an unbreakable resistance and quote

so let's get a deeper understanding of the White House's aims with Cuba and we're going to start

today in Havana Patrick Oppen joins us he's CNN's Havana bureau chief Patrick welcome

thank you so much can you just first of all tell us what daily conditions are like in Cuba just a

few days ago in fact the entire island lost it's a electric electricity supply yes

absolutely and you know power at my house was off this morning we have power at the office

where I am our Havana bureau but you know kind of our day-to-day life is juggling the daily outages

which could become much longer outages and we've seen over the last few weeks have gone from

being hours to some times lasting days okay and the is the power outage then directly related to

the U.S. oil blockade on Cuba yes because while the power system here has been shaky for years

and blackouts are just a normal part of life in Cuba we've never seen them like this before Cuba's

grid runs off oil the oil needs to come from countries like Venezuela Mexico Russia and now with

the oil blockade we haven't received any oil according to human officials for three months and so

right now you know to fill up my car if I can find gasoline I'd have to buy it from someone who

has it they're charging about three hundred dollars a tank at the moment which is more than

a Cuba makes an entire year you know on a state salary and you don't see cars on the road

power outages are lasting longer and longer it's kind of a good day if you get anywhere from four

to six hours and this is impacting every aspect of life here so energy is the fundamental thing we

need for delivery of food for pumps for water etc are those things also now under threat in Cuba

yes and and a lot of ways you know not having water is worse than not having power the system for

delivering water here again is is also broken down and antiquated but if there's no power then

the year left without water so people are stockpiling water they're stockpiling everything and of

course when you don't have powerful longer than a day your food begins to spoil and that's really

the hardest thing for for Cubans because food is so expensive compared to what they earn and when

the food begins to spoil that's when we've seen people go out on the street and start protesting

against their government just on a frustration okay so I want to talk to you about that in just

a second Patrick but first we have a little bit of tape of Cubans themselves this is Havana resident

Yamisio Sanchez Pena who told the German public broadcaster DW that she's trying to live her life

in the dark she says we can't do anything I eat in the dark I sleep in the dark I have breakfast

in the dark I shower in the dark always everything in the dark all night what else can I say

and here's another one this is a Cuban woman who is interviewed by Reuters she didn't give

her name to Reuters but she also said she's losing patience with the difficulties her country is

facing we're collapsed we can't stand this situation anymore I think that if this conversation

between Cuba and the United States is defined a better solution and to have a better prepared Cuba

with more chances to move forward in this country because we can't stand it anymore Patrick one more

question about life on the ground are things like healthcare being disrupted education you know

other aspects of Cuban life absolutely you go to any hospital now and there are something like

a hundred thousand people on a list awaiting list for surgeries most schools you know of course

don't have generators either and if you have a generator you need fuel to operate it so you know

people when they get power it's almost into the middle of the night and they rush around to kind

of do their cooking their laundry charge their devices because they don't know how long the power

will be on it really has a psychological impact you see an exhaustion and people's faces you see

an incredible worry it feels people talk about it you know being t-imposed they get us and get

times of war without a war and an oil blockade is essentially a wartime maneuver and so

the Trump administration you know they know time is on their side the longer this goes on the worst

it will get for regular Cubans no the United States of course has basically had an economic blockade

on Cuba for what 40 plus years so this is just adding to that already fragile economic state that

the island has experienced you had said a little bit earlier that we're starting to see protests

on the streets of Cuba against the Cuban government elaborate so people get frustrated and what

has happened is a time and time again is if you go out and protest well then they take away power

from a different neighborhood and give you power to get people to go back inside protesting is not

allowed here really in any form or manner you know it's still a single party communist state

and in times past when people have gone out and protested against the government the government

has come in and cracked down very very hard this is also part of the US policy towards Cuba you

know the whole point of having an embargo in many ways is not to change just the behavior of

the Cuban government because that has not changed it's to make people unhappy enough that they

try to tear down this government so what we have seen is people frustrated at the poor way the

government is managing this crisis going out beating pots and pans and essentially calling for

the power to be turned back on for the people who have felt discontent really over their whole lives

the government looks weaker than it ever has before Patrick Oppen is the Havana bureau chief

for CNN Patrick thank you so much for your reporting my pleasure

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well i'd like to introduce michael bustamante into the conversation now he's in Miami

is an associate professor of history and chair of cuban studies at the university of Miami professor

bustamante welcome to on point thanks for having me and i'd also like to introduce ricardo zuniga

he's the founding partner of dinamica america's a strategic strategic advisory firm located focused

on latin america north america and the Caribbean he also served for 30 years in the us senior foreign

service and in the obama administration he was on the team that held secret negotiations with

the cuban government that resulted in diplomatic and economic openings back then ricardo zuniga

welcome to on point thank you okay so let me ask you both uh first and foremost what do you think

what can we discern about what trump's end goal is with cuba right now professor bustamante let me

start with you it's been really hard to tell the rhetoric honestly has been a little bit all over

the place um particularly against the backdrop of reporting that suggests that some talks are going

on between both governments in fact i think that much has been confirmed and the trump administration

has also acknowledged that um so how one squares the kind of off the cuff comment that the president

is interested in taking cuba with reporting of ongoing talks with elements of the cuban government

for some kind of negotiated exit that would presumably leave part of the cuban government in power

if the trump administration gets its way um that's been uh you know a very difficult thing to

try to figure out um ricardo zuniga your thoughts no i i agree look the the president trump is going to

define winning as whatever he decides winning looks like uh and that could be very very different

from historical us aims in cuba which were to promote a democratic change and an open economy

and in the authoritarian uh government there uh but again as we saw in venezuela uh this is an

administration that is uh quite comfortable breaking with longstanding norms even when it means

leaving uh an authoritarian uh regime in place uh as it did in in venezuela it's possible you

could see that same in state in cuba which would be uh very surprising to people who voted for the

president and south florida well but uh ricardo let me just press this point a little bit because it

does feel as if right now i take both of your points about how the president speaking off the cuff

is one thing it's hard to discern what his true goals are but at the same time we have as i said

a little earlier of course the venezuela example of he eventually he did take action there and

depose the sitting government uh or the sitting president uh and then also we have um not

just president trump but in the form of the secretary of state secretary rubio we have you know the

a a family member of cuban exiles who's long been a very very strong voice against um the communist

government in cuba and i just wonder if these things coming together makes you wonder if the

u.s. would actually move so far as to take military action ricardo i very much doubt that they

would take military action in the case of cuba i mean for one thing the uh the u.s. is fully

occupied with a ron uh and this is not like the operation in venezuela cuban venezuela are very

very different cases and there would you there's no single person no single cuban that they could

remove from power that would make the rest of the government more malleable that's a much more

cohesive government than was a case in venezuela so the reality is that cuba has fewer resources

than venezuela uh it is in a much more dire state and i think the the other reason why

military action isn't likely is because it's obvious to everyone except maybe the very top

tier of the cuban leadership that this model is done uh and they need to like change is necessary

and there's enormous public pressure for change from the island you know notwithstanding the u.s.

position on this so there's no real need for military action either to exert leverage professor

bustamonte just your your thoughts on whether venezuela is the right or wrong model to be

considering here well i think it's interesting that administration officials themselves have been

citing the venezuela model is something that they want to follow in some way part of what they're

doing is trying to marry this extraordinary external pressure with a search for a quote-unquote

cuban uh delcio Rodriguez but i agree with with Ricardo it's not clear who that person would be

and the cuban system is a much more in a way kind of cohesive ideological system in the venezuela

system ever was so i think you know the recipe doesn't quite make uh exact sense here which i think

is partly why the administration may be leaning towards some kind of negotiated exit and trying to

get as much as they can out of that using the leverage that they have okay so but let me ask both of

you this like practically speaking there really nothing that the u.s. gets out of even trying to

change the government in cuba but it's never really been about practicality right it's been

about politics exclusively so i mean is that not seen as a potential major gain if secretary

rubio or president trump could say you know we are we finally freed the cuban people i mean professor

what do you think i agree and you raised a good point so even though sort of the logic would not

favor something like military action um you know i think the cuba thing for this administration is as

much about symbolism as as as anything else to be able to say and plant the flag that you know

we're the administration that did this thing that no other administration had done before that's

certainly something that would appeal to the president's i think own sense of self importance um

i can imagine the secretary of state selling this to him on those terms but again how you get from

point a to point b is a very different story and i think that's where the rubber meets the road

particularly given everything else that's going on yeah you know everything that both of you

are saying makes perfect sense in a normal political world but what we see right now is a president

of the united states who's entirely unburdened by the the need to define what success looks like

because he changes the definition on a daily basis so let's just imagine for a moment that this

actually is a pivotal time for the united states to affect some kind of political change in cuba

what i'm hearing from both of you though is that we don't know if that would be successful at all

could it potentially could the united states involvement right now potentially leave the cuban

people specifically Ricardo in a worse place oh absolutely well look that's the case today

you know i think it is true that many cubans want change any change uh but they don't want uh

the invasion of cuba they just want normal lives and they want uh the same things that people in

the united states want and and their daily lives and they're than they haven't seen for years

and conditions that have gotten worse and worse and worse uh so yes absolutely a US military action

coupled with what's already happening in the economy and the shut off of energy sources

is potentially a you know a recipe for a humanitarian disaster on the island

well let's listen to cuban president Miguel Diaz canel on friday of last week acknowledging that

the u.s and cuba are in fact in talks but he says they are in the early stages

he's saying quote these are processes that are done with much discretion they are long processes that

have to first be initiated by establishing contacts that there are opportunities for dialogue

and a willingness to engage in dialogue and all of this takes time and based on that agenda

are being developed negotiations will begin talks begin and agreements are reached things

we're still far from since we're in the early stages of that process and quote uh professor

bustamante do you do you want to try to sort of glean any intel from uh what the cuban president

is saying there sure i'll do my best i mean i think that this was kind of the worst kept secret

and the fact that it kind of um you know made news that the president of cuba was acknowledging

something that everyone else seemed to know was i think uh a testament to how slow change happens

in cuba the other thing i would note is that you know to me that the Diaz canel's rhetoric

did not seem to quite reflect the urgency of the moment yeah either for his government or the

people at another point he said the talks are just getting started and we're at the stage of

defining you know what the issues are that need resolution as if we don't know from 60 plus years

of what the issues aren't cuba cuba's given a relationship so i think cuban people might have

liked to hear uh more urgency from their leader as to how seriously they're taking this

Ricardo Zuniga i'd love to sort of mine your experience as being a us negotiator on the team

of us negotiators with cuba uh in the Obama administration what was it like negotiating with cubans then

um uh you know who did you talk to how did that go this a little bit of your historical experience

so the history of us cuba talks is mostly a history of talking past each other uh we did

unlike the current administration we did keep our talks secret throughout because that was the

only way that either side could have the political space to negotiate hard things and and they were

hard difficult conversations we simply have a very different worldview a different vision of

history uh and what the United States seeks uh really gets at the at the heart of the authoritarian

government in place in cuba today and if we seek greater freedoms at least that traditionally has

been what the United States has been pushing for that goes directly contrary to the cuban

government's view of itself and and its interest in remaining and power indefinitely at the same

time we could make progress on sort of pragmatic issues which is the terrain that the cuban

government favors if it if it doesn't imply you know regime change then then they are willing to

talk about uh quite an array of issues we're neighbors uh and so there are many many issues that come

up uh with cuba they're fairly mundane have to do with the safety and security of our of our

citizens but on the fundamental issues uh human rights uh the geopolitical alignment and so forth

those are those are uh areas where we historically have just not been able to make much progress um

and uh but you know I think in in in our case in president obama's case he wanted to put to bed this

this you know this longstanding relic of the Cold War Ricardo if I may I have to say I love how diplomats

talk sometimes because they insert um sort of clauses in the middle of their sentences that

that are that are quite consequential but you might not notice them and one of them that you did

just now was that historically the United States has you know has wanted to introduce some you know

more freedoms in uh in cuba and you you said at least traditionally that has been the case

meaning you don't you don't feel that that's necessarily the case now with the Trump administration

I think that's not the case so I think here's one thing that I'm sure that they all want they the

reason that you're hearing about the removal of the president of cuba who is honestly not a particularly

consequential figure in in in cuban history he's one of a consortium of leaders uh but symbolically

removing him then gives the a Trump administration a plausible position that they have changed the

government of cuba and then whoever comes next if they do what they didn't Venezuela and draw

from the current leadership ranks it is going to have to be somebody with a strong background in

the communist party or the armed forces of cuba and I think that for at least for the president the

president is not interested in democracy he certainly has made no no illusions to that in in

Venezuela or in or in other conflicts whereas secretary rubio is going to probably have a very

different set of interests coming from south lorda where where the removal of the entire communist

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karma act on march 9th at a news conference in der al florida a reporter asked president from

what the u.s. would get out of a deal with cuba and here's trumps answer it may be a friendly

takeover it may not be a friendly takeover it wouldn't matter because they're really in

they're down to as they say fumes they have no energy they have no money they're deep trouble

on a humanitarian basis and we don't want to see that but they were very very bad to a lot of

people is you know and a lot of people living are the cuban american vote which i got at record levels

very important those people are very important to me i know i know what they went through they

went through hell some of them have gone on to be some of the most successful people in the country

cuban american business people some of them are like the most successful

in the country and a lot of them a friends of mine because i've been fighting this battle with

them for a long time uh... recorder can i just see a quick question do you know what the

president is talking about when he says he's been fighting this battle with them for a long time i can't

we i can't quite sus that out well i yeah i know i i can't either uh you know cuba has not been

especially important to him yeah Venezuela by comparison has been much more important okay um

gentlemen i'd actually just like to take a quick step back here because we have to talk about the

role that history plays with any u.s. interaction with cuba i mean it's been what more than six

decades that cuba occupies this unique place i would say in the american political psychology

as the next door neighbor that still stands as an eternal reminder of the former Soviet union

and the you know existential threat of the cold war i mean Ricardo since you have been a u.s.

diplomat in in this world how does that history play into this moment well i mean the for on the

cuban side i assure you this feels like a part of the continued arc of its relationship with the

united states the people who are in charge of cuba now some of them were founding members of the

revolution so for them this has been their entire existence for the united states cuba became

sort of less and less relevant as a security matter and became more and more of a symbolic

uh instance of a country that stood in opposition to the united states and allied with u.s.

adversaries all the way through till now but if you're a u.s. diplomat cuba was always the adversary

on the other side of almost every issue that mattered in latin america uh professor boost

amounted did you want to add to that yes sure i you know the relationship between cuba and united

states has had to exercise importance and i think the imaginary of both countries since long before

the cuban revolution in fact i think the cuban revolution comes out of this long and torturous

relationship these ties of singular intimacy as president mechanically called them and i think

the shadow of that longer history is upon us i mean when the president sort of talks off the cuff

about a takeover of cuba then cuban audiences hear that and might rightly think about 1898 when

the united states intervened in cuba's war for independence and occupied the island for four years

and helped birth the cuban republic but under a tremendous u.s. shadow and so the histories are

long and deep i remember very well when president obama traveled to cuba for a historic visit in the

spring of 2016 and gave a nationally televised address and part of the the thread of that speech was

about the need to sort of put history to bed and look forward and that generated such a strong

counter reaction from from the cuban state um the irony though is that if this history still continues

to matter so much for cuban officials and an official narrative for cuban citizens particularly the

two generations that have come up since the fall of the soviet union who know nothing but one

degree or another of crisis they often don't have as deep an understanding of this history and

they are really looking to just move forward and put it behind them which i think has left them open

to a kind of dramatic action from the united states potentially in ways that they might never have

been before okay but ricardo zuniga you know i'm thinking back to the the negotiations that you

were part of in the obama administration and they did bring the some successes regarding diplomatic

relations and economic openings between the united states in cuba but i don't imagine that

political change was ever on the table if indeed to this day as you're saying that history that

we were talking about still ways so heavily in the minds of cuban leadership it seems to entirely

unrealistic that the cubans would be open to introducing substantial political change right

absolutely true and so during our negotiations with the cubans which were a lot less coercive

than the ones that were seen now between the trump administration and cuba that was a different time

cuba still had more resources than it does now and it was a better and conditioned overall

now they have very very few choices much more limited public support because the population as

michael said has lived through these cycles of rising expectations only to have their hopes dashed

so i think that frankly the cuban state simply cannot provide what it could before and the subsidies

are done the external subsidies are over so the model the model's dead and it has been for some time

that's their harsh reality that they may not want to see any kind of change or envision a future for

cuba without them in charge but those circumstances are kind of starting to come out of their hands

at this point then why isn't the u.s stepping back and just letting that slow crumbling

happen it i mean is it frankly because we have the son of cuban exiles as secretary of state right

now and i just don't really understand what advantage the u.s thinks it has at this moment

well i think michael put it well we we our countries live very large in each other's minds

yeah and so i think it's impossible to imagine the united states not doing not doing anything

who regardless of who is in the white house at at a moment like this but you're you're exactly

right like so the question here is how do you stimulate change positive change in cuba

with a government that it feels like it's very existence is that a physical existence as people

is on the table yeah that's that's the situation for them i'm going to come back to that in a second

but professor booster monday let me ask you this because we've been talking exclusively at us and

the united states and cuba but um you know i'm wondering the russians have said i think there's

been some reporting that russians have said they're going to continue to to support cuba i mean

their subsidies and maybe plus some i don't know if china's playing a role here how do you read all that

yeah um russian china have absolutely been key allies trade the trade partners of cuba in

recent memory um the reporting this morning is that there's a couple of ships from russia with oil

on their way to cuba that will represent you know one of the first challenges to the

ostensible oil blockade um and perhaps you're seeing an opening given everything that the united states

is focused on in in the middle east um but i think it's also important to note that while the rhetoric

from the russian chinese government is one of solidarity one of opposition to what the united states

government is doing to cuba neither of these countries is willing to bail out the cuban economic

model they themselves have said to the cubans you know you know on friendly terms or somewhat

less friendly terms you guys need to change the russians even uh proposed a kind of a massive plan

for restructuring the cuban economy a couple years ago that went nowhere so everyone's frustrated

so the last you know decade has been the cycle of missed opportunities for reform you know there's no

one to bail them out and i think for that reason you know going back to your prior question about

what the united states is actually after here given what they did in venezuela they sense that they

have leverage and they do in theory the question here is time and political well on the cuban side

can the the trump administration use that oil leverage to prod the cuban government to concede on

things they've never conceded on before while the cuban people are suffering in the middle or will

the cuban government try to you know run out the clock and so i that's what worries me the most the

sort of differential timelines on which the diplomatic process may play out versus just how quickly

the humanitarian situation is deteriorating on the ground uh and that is not a good rep

recipe for you know rebuilding a society in in in any form well michael buster montet is the associate

professor of history and chair of cuban studies at the university of myami professor buster montet

thank you so much for joining us thank you recorder zuniga i hope you forgive me for just making

this very kind of rudimentary observation but you know we've been talking about the cuban people

here through the whole hour and i just want to underscore that they are suffering even more right

now that the trump administration has made the decision with its you know essentially it's effective

oil blockade to increase the suffering of the cuban people with the hopes of creating some kind

of political leverage that's a choice made by washington on the innocent people of cuba

uh yes that absolutely is and the whole premise of president obama's approach to the issue was

that the conflict was going to continue between the two governments but we should do what we can

to alleviate the suffering of the cuban people and let them solve some of their own problems

encourage agency on their behalf let them make their lives as good as they can while the

governments continue their their dispute this is the opposite this is essentially

using the pressure cooker of the destruction of cuban society to try to generate a revolution

from below that's the the objective but of course it becomes a much more unmanageable situation

quite apart from the humanitarian concerns having a violent overthrow of a of a government always

has unforeseen consequences let me ask you from your experience your long experience uh

with with cuba specifically that pressure cooker to create a revolution from below

do you think that there's any possibility that that could happen given the current circumstances

look michael had it right that under the the current circumstances uh we have not seen before

and so it's you can't predict based on what's happened in the past you certainly have had large

demonstrations that the cuban state remains very capable in terms of its repressive capacity

no question there so it would be difficult to see this kind of change go forward unless parts

of the state itself defected in favor of change members of the armed forces or the security forces

or members other members of the state and we don't see that right now what we see right now is

that uh as as unhappy as angry as the population is as much as they desire change

nobody wants to be the last victim of this government right so to an extent it's still easier

to try to leave cuba rather than try to force change and that's been part of the logic

of repression in cuba give people an out a safety valve that's been migration in the past

but this is a very different circumstance so yes it's plausible to imagine some kind of uprising

in cuba and again people are quite desperate they just want normality they want power

but they want to see some kind of trajectory of hope and that's that's not existent right now

now secretary rubio has said that cuba does not have to change from one day to the next

he says everyone is mature and realistic that's a quote from him ideally what change if any

would you hope to see in the coming you know weeks months years in cuba well i think in the short

term you we would want to see improved social and economic conditions so that would mean removing

pressure on the private sector and allowing much more freedom of people to again solve their own

problems so that would be crucial you would want the release of all political prisoners and

commitment by the state to kind of begin easing the pressure that they've put on the political side

of the equation as well and a gradual but very evident move towards opening up cuban society that's

what we need to see and how you get there again again is a matter of debate but it's necessary

for us to see a successful neighbor in cuba well ricardo zuniga he was in the obama administration

serving on a team that held secret negotiations with cuba on economic and diplomatic openings he's

now founding partner of denamika americas ricardo thank you so much thank you very much magna

i'm magna chakrabardi this is on point

rhythm it's the thing that makes you want to dance it can change the way you feel about a song

or a moment and it's actually even more than that rhythm to me is like a universal language

at least on this planet it's not just a musical expression but it's essential to to life and

nature i'm magna chakrabardi why we need rhythm in music in language and in life that's on the next

on point