Will Russian interference derail Europe’s future elections?

0:00You're listening to the Monaco Daily first broadcast on the 3rd of September, 2026, on Monaco Radio. How serious is the Russian threat to European elections? What is the secret of the success of the modern Anglo-French relationship? And how much would you spend on a second-hand coat? I'm Andrew Muller, the Monaco Daily starts now. Hello and welcome to the Monaco Daily coming to you from our studios here at Midori House in London. I'm Andrew Muller, my guest's Rainbow Murray and Philipp Malier will discuss the day's big stories and we'll get the latest from the Venice Film Festival with Film Critic Karen Krasniewicz. Stay tuned all that and more coming up right here on the Monaco Daily. This is the Monaco Daily. I'm Andrew Muller and I'm joined today by Rainbow Murray, professor of politics at Queen Mary University of London, expert on French and British politics.

1:05And Philipp Malier, professor in French and European politics at University College London. Can you guess or know what we're going to be talking about tonight? Philipp, you do recently return from a different part of Europe, outside your immediate area of expertise, but at least one I have already visited myself and actually quite liked. And Adiz. Azores. Yeah, I don't know if I've pronounced it well, it's a kind of mix between the Portuguese pronunciation and the English one. Yeah, it was a great discovery quite far from mainland Europe. It was really lost in Atlantic and almost midway between the Americas and us and it's blended. I think it's a bit of a crazy climate. It can rain a lot from and the next minute it's very hot and overall the temperatures were quite low. So I think if you want to escape high temperatures in the summer, that's a good place. And yes, it's interesting because it's technically Europe, although it's far from Europe.

2:05No, I really liked it when I went many years ago for a story for a Monaco magazine. I went to San Miguel, which is the largest azole, but in keeping with your experience, Philipp, I do recall that I spent most of my time there either putting my raincoat on or taking my raincoat off. Rainbow, you join us from somewhere much less romantic, i.e. your sick bed. You've had COVID like it's 2020 or something. I think so. Although one difference between now and 2020 is I no longer have any COVID tests. So I'm just... You're self-diagnosed. I'm self-diagnosing on the fact that this has railroaded me for a long time and did the same to the person I caught it from. And yeah, in... Covid never really went away. We just stopped caring about it as much because it stopped killing people. So now it's just one of the nasty things floating around the occasion in oxyside ways. Is it different from the old school 2020 vintage?

3:08Well, when I got it in 2022, I had an almighty headache and a lot of fever. Whereas this time it's been a sore throat that just will not go away and crushing fatigue. So it has evolved, which means that you can catch it all over again. So basically our task is keeping you awake until the end of this episode. It's always really interesting. I'm sure I'll be on the edge of my seat. Well, we'll start in Italy, the foreign minister of which Antonio Tajani has warned all of Europe that Russia is at least as likely as not to try interfering in forthcoming elections across the continent. Through what he referred to as deplorable activity, which of course ranks high among the worst kinds of activity. Tajani is not alone speaking last month. Estonia's defense minister, Hanopevka, who listeners will have heard on the foreign desk a couple of weeks ago, noted looming elections in Sweden, Latvia and Estonia and said that Russia would as he put it be looking for ways to influence our societies and stoke tensions.

4:08And last month, French presidential Esperanto Gabriel Atal became only the latest French politician to raise a complaint about Russian disinformation campaigns. Philly, first of all, this is one of those stories where it would be actually much more surprising if Russia wasn't doing this, wouldn't it? Yes. It's been documented now for a long time. So I think there are multiple cases that you could also, I mean, just the month of August, you listed some events, you know, the drone explosion in Germany in the Lipsik Airport. So it's been going on for a long time, this hybrid warfare because it's a mix of disinformation via the social media, use of drone, sabotage, physical violence. But I think it's essentially an attempt to polarize radicalized segments of European societies to make people sort of challenge or lose faith in democratic institutions.

5:11And of course, this is very serious, no need of a proper warfare to be afraid of the consequences of that, manipulating also elections, it happened also in Europe. And at a time when the far right across Europe is gaining from strengths to strengths, this is really very worrying. It's also interestingly, and I, an obna for George Ameloni, who until not so long ago was a kind of fairly close to Putin. A few years ago, she changed, of course, since the War of Aggression on Ukraine. But all that, of course, ought to be taken seriously, and there should be, I think, a common European response to that. Rainbow, Philippe mentions, obviously, the role of social media platforms in disseminating this stuff. And it is the case that disinformation disseminated via social media. I mean, for the people who are doing it, it's effective, it's easy, it's cheap, and it's deniable.

6:11We've all due acknowledgement that problems are much easier to solve from sitting in the host's chair in a podcast studio than they are from actual seats of government. What stops European governments from saying to those social media platforms, and we all know which ones we're talking about, either fix this, clean it all up, get Russian disinformation off your platform, or you can't do business here. We will pull your plugs. Do you honestly think that governments have never said to social media platforms, you need to clean up this, that, or the other? I mean, this is a, you know, longstanding thing, if it's not disinformation, then it's hate speech or whatever. But it competes with a different principle of freedom of speech, and also freedom of the open market. If you take social media platforms away, for one thing you're going to upset your voters, and if the purpose of all of this messaging from Russia is to undermine democracy and make governments unpopular, well then taking away Facebook or TikTok is not going to make a government more popular.

7:13And something else will emerge in its stead. So you'd be playing whack-a-mole. I thought I'd fixed it. It sounds so easy in principle, it's pretty much impossible in practice, unfortunately. What is actually possible in practice, then, if we can't actually realistically stop disinformation being disseminated, and depressingly I suspect rainbow probably is correct, is there anything actually that can be done about it? First of all, I agree with Rainbow, I think, to Shaddan and Tahr channels or social media would be in our democracies, a very liberal thing and dangerous, setting a dangerous precedent. So it's difficult. Something has to be done, because clearly very inappropriate things are happening on the social media, but banning them, shutting them down altogether is not the solution either. So I think it's a bit of a piecemeal, adorque thing. Recently in France, the former boss of Russia today, who had, was well, we had channels and representation across Europe, who are now shut, was expelled from France, because clearly it was proven that she was doing exactly what we were talking about.

8:34And we talk about this hybrid warfare, disinformation, polarizing things, publishing with the support of far-right French media, by the way, publishing inaccurate information about the French government. That was a decision, but of course that consoled the overall problem, and it's just one example. I think there's a need for more cooperation on the EU level, and that includes a country such as the UK, or not part of the EU, because it seems to me when such thing happens in one country, there's a national response to it. I'm not saying there's no cooperation at all in terms of information, but there's one national response, and they may vary, they may be different from one country to another. So I think there should be at least an attempt to do something on the European level, and I think it should make cover to be more expensive for whoever does it. And let's put to simplify the matter, let's say, when Putin does it, because it seems to be too easy to...

9:39I mean, we know that it's been orchestrated by the Russian power, but not much seems to be done in response to that. You know, expelled intelligence officers, that's an old practice, could be free assets, you know, if you can work out and prove that there are some financial assets behind something. But it's difficult because it's an army of spies, but also disenfranchised criminals that are being used to do to perpetrate us on criminal actions. And also, I think, it goes via the media. Disinformation is the key thing. But the trouble is with all these ideas about addressing disinformation, Rainbow, you can't actually win, can you? Because the disinformation is always... I mean, it doesn't have to be tethered to reality, obviously, it's probably better if it isn't. It can be simple, it can be inflammatory, and it can be completely without any nuance whatsoever.

10:45And people are generally happier to believe that than anything more complicated. Yeah, I mean, there's two reasons really, I think, why you can't really counter disinformation very effectively. The first is that the target audience isn't necessarily the kind of people contributing in this studio. It's people who are susceptible to cynical messages about authority, who are open to conspiracy theories, who are receptive to the messages that being sent out. And if you try and counter it and say, well, that's not true, they might be more inclined to believe the falsehood than to believe the reality. They might say, sort of, post-truth environment that has been fostered now for an extensive period of time. There's a decline of trust in the in authority, in traditional media, in government. And so I think it's quite difficult to persuade people that this simply isn't true. And if you do try and persuade it, all you're doing really is amplifying the message and drawing more attention to it, and therefore making it more open to people whose algorithms would never have led them to it.

11:55On social media, but who might hear about it through other channels if you start making loud noise about it. So you're kind of damned if you do and damned if you don't really, which is one of the reasons why I think Putin has been pursuing this strategy. It's really difficult to counter. Well, let's move along to the Anglo-French relationship, upon which the flip counter of years since the last significant war between the cross-channel neighbours now stands at 211. They run probably without precedent in their shared history. The, if you will, Bonhoomi has been further entrenched this week by King Charles III and President Manuel Macron leading the opening of next-ubition of the Bayo Tapestry at the British Museum. Charles went so far as to refer to the relationship, and bear in mind that several of his ancestors have invaded France. As the ontant Amical, Macron spoke of as a bond as close as the threads of this thousand-year-old embroidery and UK Prime Minister Andy Berner made quite a reasonable joke by politician standards.

12:56Monsieur Le Président, thank you for your extremely kind words this evening, and thank you for this elaborate 70-meter reminder of one of Britain's biggest defeats. A tapestry that shows a new leader emerging from a northern territory, travelling to the south of England in search of the Crown, something clearly that couldn't happen today. Andy Berner, speaking yesterday as the Bayo Tapestry was unveiled at the British Museum, following that earlier today, President Macron replied on X to a post purporting to come from Larry the Downing Street cat. I mean, are things really as solid as advertised? I think so, yes. Of course, there is still traditional rivalry, sort of a summiritation, both parts, misunderstanding on both parts, but overall, yes, I think our relationship has never been so good.

14:08At least I can refer to the last decade, but if you go back, for instance, to the 1904 agreement, the young uncle, I was sign up, and I think it was sign up at a very crucial time. It was a way to prevent yet another war between the two countries, because at the time they worked with a question of dispute over the colonies. Should we sort our disagreements with a new war, should we try to sort it more amicably? I think it was decided to do it peacefully, and I think that was a very big decision for two countries, which had been at war for so long and for so many times across history. So I think that was a real start. I think the kings made a... I appreciate the Prime Minister's joke, of course. It's a good one, but I think the king made a boomer with this, choosing the word Amical instead of Godual, because of course the meaning is different. Amical friendly is not cordial, it's warmer, it indicates more proximity and real appreciation, where it can be cordial, simply meaning as we are polite.

15:23We beg to differ, but we will not have a punch up about our disagreement. Rainbow, perhaps more soberingly, given what we will refer to as events in the United States, is it more important than ever that there is an amical if you will between Europe's two nuclear-armed powers? Absolutely, and I think the strength of the relationship at the moment is not coincidental. Things may be in a good place right now, but it's worth remembering that the relations between France and the UK were quite tense only a few years ago. Macron has worked with six different British Prime Ministers, some of whom he's connected with better than others. There wasn't a huge amount of love between him and Boris Johnson, as they were fighting over Brexit and fishing rights and what have you. Even less love between him and his trust, but that didn't last long. But the situation has changed in the last few years. The sting of Brexit is starting to wear off as Britain is starting to show itself willing to start a repression on with the EU.

16:33And exactly as you say, the situation with the loss of a reliable ally in the USA and the presence of a veritable nemesis in Europe in the form of Putin means that the UK and France have formed a really powerful alliance, the leaders of the coalition of the willing in support of Ukraine. And as long as they are supporting each other on foreign policy, I think some of the other details are going to slide more into place. What we did hear a bit more from President Macron at the same event, this is some of what he had to say. Let me briefly talk about the English Channel. We call it La Monche. You call it The Channel. Its story is told on the tapestry which is displayed here and which we all know well. The Channel is a beautiful metaphor for our relationship. For centuries, it acted as a border, sometimes an obstacle, crossed frequently by armies, merchants or artists.

17:36Over time and from one shore to the other, something greater than an Anton Cordial has come to bind us together. It's now an Anton Amical. As you were saying, Philippe, but the slightly possibly depressing question just before we move off this, does all this survive the possible election to the presidency of Marine La Penne or Jean-Luc Mélenchon? We shall see and Rainbow would just pointed out a moment ago that they are still moments of tension. I think you could add to the Brexit, but before that there was the high tension around the Iraq War, where Britain sided with the US, invaded Iraq. The French disagreed with that. That was our remember, probably the highest point of tension since I've been on this island. We shall see. I think it will depend, of course, on La Penne to start with. I always look at Italy and will she do a Meloni?

18:44If she does a Meloni, I, going along, are, broadly speaking, in the main policies and getting along reasonably well with our European partners, I think, politicians, heads of state are pragmatic, above all. Things could work. Well, returning somewhat to the subject of the UK's Prime Minister, Andy Burnham is, as he may have mentioned, several hundred thousand times from the north of England. And one of his early initiatives has been the staking out of number 10 north and outpost of the Prime Minister's office in Manchester. He is not, it seems, alone in believing in the benefits of decentralization. South Korea is stepping up the shift of government, governmental, rather institutions from Seoul to Seijong, about 120 kilometers south, including a second presidential office and spare legislature. The Prime Minister's office and several ministries have already been there for some years. Rainbow, at what point does the capital cease to be the capital? If you move all the capital stuff out of it?

19:45Well, if we're just talking about the movement of political institutions, I mean, you're Australian, is Canberra the true capital of Australia? Well, yes, yes it is. I mean, legally, yes, but I think in the world's eyes and commercially and artistically in all the rest, Sydney, isn't it? Any aggrieved listening in Canberra, please direct your complaints directly to Rainbow Murray, not Monica Radio as an institution. The Canberra was founded, of course, to stop Sydney and Melbourne arguing over who was going to be the capital. So they picked a bunch of sheep paddock about Ron sort of halfway between him and said, look, we'll build it there. I mean, getting back to your more serious point, and capital cities tend to be overly crowded, congested, incredibly expensive. So there's a cost to the people in the capital that you have too much concentration of everything in one space. And there's a corresponding cost to the rest of the country that there is a lack of the wealth and resources that pour into a capital.

20:47And there's a cost to the nation. If you concentrate too much in one space, you are losing out on the potential and the capital, the human capital of the rest of the country. So it is rational to try and spread it out a bit more rather than having it completely concentrated in one location. I mean, Philip, what do you think? Would it be good for France and for Paris if both the President and the National Assembly were punted off somewhere else? Yes, I think so because France is another example, such as the UK of a very centralized country. Despite the evolution laws taken past as early as 1982 in France, but it hasn't really sorted the issue with the fact that Paris is still the heart of all things in France, it could work. But decentralization, textile, proper decentralization, textile and has a cost. If you want new population to go in and settle elsewhere, not in the capital, you've got to provide good services in all areas, not simply thriving business, but also good universities, good services, good public services.

21:54And that's exactly the thing. If it's just to open an office and call it number 10 North, and there's not much behind it, I suppose this is a bit of a gimmick thing. I'm not saying that it will be the case for Burnham's project, but in general that's a problem. So it takes a lot of time. Historically, I know there's an Australian example, also in the Netherlands, the Hague and Amsterdam, but in general, capital were historically established in the most economically thriving areas. That's always it's stuff like that, where you have at some point an economy region which is economically thriving, this is where the capital was settled. So it's a question really of bringing resources and wealth and spread it over the place. And that is a huge task.

22:54Rainbow, this is occasionally discussed here in the United Kingdom, and you would think that the UK could be right for it because obviously the capital in the UK context is where the monarch is, which is theoretically at Buckingham Palace. But as over seas listeners may not be entirely where the Palace of Westminster or the houses of Parliament is a crumbling, vermin-ridden death trap, which is an urgent need of refurbishment, which is next to impossible to do while people are trying to govern from it. Would you favour at least temporarily relocating Britain's Parliament elsewhere? Well, there's a strong architectural case to be made for relocating it elsewhere, although please don't tell that to my 10-year-old daughter's class because they're going to visit the houses of Parliament in November. It's a beautiful historical institution. But the UK has already experimented with shifting the focus of power. We've had devolution.

23:55I'm bearing mine that 30 years ago we didn't have the Scottish Parliament, we didn't have the Welsh Assembly, nor Nair Assembly. So we're still trying to figure out how to shift some of the concentration of power away from London. But the reality at the moment is, as Philippe said, that if you want to have a shift beyond political power, if you want to have a shift of economic power, you need investment. And alongside all of the other things that Philippe said that you need to invest in, I would add transport infrastructure, you need to be able to commute quickly and effectively between different locations if you want to have that shift of people away because they need to still feel connected to other hubs. Well, we will move along to the world of second-hand clothing, which apparently now revolves less than it once might have around students rummaging in charity shops. Several upscale clothing retailers Lululemon, latest among them, are investing heavily in second-hand clothes, if largely their own.

24:59The idea being that customers can buy or sell a given brand's used gear through a dedicated online platform, or return their kit for store credit that the brand may sell the item again or recycle the material. Rainbow, this does just sound basically sensible, doesn't it? It's completely sensible. I throw away something that can be reused, especially if it can be reused to the economic benefits of all involved. I understand this latest trend in second-hand clothing, but I'm a second-hand clothing junkie, but not from sending clothes back to stores for credit. I love charity shops. I think they're a wonderful concept. I think take something that would otherwise be thrown away given a new life, and allow people who would otherwise struggle to afford good clothing to get it at a low price and benefit a charity. Earlier this week, I bought my daughter a beautiful dress for £3. She felt like a million dollars, so to speak, and I supported the hospice that cared for my brother in the end of his life. Every body wins.

26:06Aside from that, what is your best ever charity shop score? What do you mean by score? As in the best thing you've come away from a charity shop with. Oh, once I found the most gorgeous rainbow mug for a pound, and I used it every single day since. Is there a recognition going on here by even upscale brands that disposable clothes or throwing clothes away is not the future? I mean, my own experience of this is there is a make of denim jeans whose kit eye favour and am indeed wearing who I will not name because they're not sponsoring me, though I am open to offers. But no, not only will they repair any pair of jeans you buy from them. Actually, they do good work. I will name them. It's nudy jeans. They will repair any pair you buy for as long as you like. And once they get to the point where they can't be repaired, you can trade any pair of jeans back in, however, knackered for 20% off a new pair.

27:06I think the whole system makes sense. I think it's not entirely new to been going on for a few years. And the idea of particularly when secondhand clothes from good brands, I think it's a very attractive thing. And I think when you find them occasionally in charity shops, sometimes you find amazing stuff, very costly piece of clothes which are just there for a few quid. I think that's a very nice thing to do. I think it makes sense because I don't know if it's currently the fashion, but there was a few years ago, a pair of jeans you wouldn't buy a pair of jeans which was not super washed and full of hauls. And that was supposed to be new pair of jeans costing lots of money. So why not get them secondhand? I also, although I don't buy, I used to buy secondhand clothes when I was a student, long time ago, I stopped doing it, but I bring my clothes to charity shops.

28:06I think that's something to do. Just finally on this one, Rainbow, and it is a quibble about which I could not personally care less. And I suspect you might not personally care less either. But it is a thing people have raised that if you are a fancy upscale brand, does it somewhat or in any respect diminish the lustre of your label if you are seen to be trafficking in secondhand kit? I think we could all do with placing greater social worth on secondhand, not as a way of saving money, but as a way of being more sustainable. But if there's one thing that brands do like, it's a good green wash, something that makes them look environmentally friendly whilst also being profitable to them. So if they have no better motive, then I think they could use green washing to sell this with the bonus that it is actually genuinely, I think, having a good environmental impact. Rainbow Murray and Philip Marley, thank you both for joining us. You're listening to The Daily.

29:15This is The Daily on Monaco Radio. Finally on today's show, the 83rd Venice Film Festival is underway as of yesterday. And we are joined from it by the film critic Karen Krasanovich. Karen, what have you already seen and if you haven't already seen anything, what are you going to see? I've just watched John Malcovitch walk the red carpet with a rough around his neck. It's just fantastic. Is that the name of a film or something you've literally just seen happen? It's just something I just seen happen. It's the red carpet tonight for a fantastic film. I could say it's fantastic. Wild Horse 9 by Martin Macdonough. I think you know some of his work, Andrew, in Bruce possibly seven psychopaths, three billboards outside of Ebbing, Missouri, and the banshees of Inesheran. This star's John Malcovitch and Sam Rockwell in a kind of a comedy thriller, a bit of a bromance possibly initially set in Santiago Chile in 1973 and moving to you guest at Easter Island.

30:24I mean, Karen, my grasp of Chilean history is not that firm, but it is firm enough to know that there may not have been that many laughs in 1973 of all years. If you worked in the CIA, there was a lot of laugh. A lot of swearing, a lot of swearing with Steve Bouchemis as well as your boss MJ. It's a spectacular film. It's all I can say. People are walking away saying masterpiece and I have to say the script is great. The casting is wonderful. The pace is remarkable. And the tone, it's poignant. I mean, at the end, I was very nearly in tears along with all the other hard bit and critics and the Darsena Salad Darsena, which fits 1400 plus people. It does genuinely sound like the sort of film I will enjoy and I will do that in due course. I'm not sure how convinced I'm likely to be about a new Werner Herzog, but go right ahead and try. I think you're right to be a little suspicious of that. Now, it's called Bucking Faster than I only got it wrong once.

31:29It's stars Kate and Runeemara as twin sisters. It's based on a two story of they played Jeannie and Jane Holbrooke who fall in love with Mr. Mal, I think it's Mal, got my notes are on there. It's played. They fall in love with Orlando Blue who then very somebody else, of course they get angry and then what happens after that. I haven't only knows they end up in a cave. So, I mean, that does that does sound very Herzog. It's it is very Herzog and I'm wondering how we got away with this. This film has been financed completely by one person, an investor in philanthropy, just called Clara Wu Tang. I think she just said here Herzog, have this money, make your movie and the key locations are Ireland and also Slovenia. If you're if you're into nonlinear surrealism, you'll love this. I wouldn't call it my favorite genre. I mean, would you go, would you basically Karen go so far as to say it's actually any good or are there better things broadly that people could be doing with two hours of their remaining corporeal allotment?

32:37Yes, I'm a popularist. I like movies that I can say these Andrew watch this. I mean, I would say watch this, but really I kind of was looking at my watch a bit and some people really loved it because it was surreal. Personally, not me. Can I tell you what's happening tomorrow? Please. I do. Okay. Great. I'm very excited about the Robert Pattinson thriller, Primetime and also all Shraders and the basics of philosophy. If you've been to the cinema recently, you'll see the Pattinson Primetime trailers and you'll think, what's this all about? It's based on a reality show to catch a predator with a host basically becomes the star and a predator. I don't want to say much more. And the poll Shrader film, he says it's kind of a seminal take on text, you driver, which he wrote for Scorsese. So that gives you an idea. What's tomorrow? Well, we look forward to hearing about all of that in due course, but just before we let you go, Karen, it would be remiss of us not to mark the passing of Gloria Steinem, who's died at the age of 92.

33:40This is obviously the end of a long life and an extraordinarily important and influential one. And where would you even start quantifying the legacy? It's really hard. I am wearing aviators in her honor just so you know. Now, she said that if you look her up anytime, she's the leading figure in second wave feminism. Andrew, did you realize that there are four waves of feminism? I did not notice. This is the second wave. Anyway, she started sort of in the 60s. She's a journalist started as an activism and famously went undercover as a playboy bunny and revealed the poor pay and sexist working conditions at yeah, at the bunny club. Personally, I was shocked. I mean, she looked at things. If you see her, if you watch anything about her on video, she's calm. She's really, she looks great. She's very calming, very confident. And that obviously really worked for her sending out these really important messages that women are people. And that was a novel thing in the 60s, the 70s.

34:44That's why she launched Ms. Magazine in 71 and also went on to focus a lot on little caucuses and other things that when I hear words like that, I just shut off. But she did also write a book which I've got to tell you she wrote many books, but I love this one from 2019. The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off. But you talk there about the 60s and 70s and what really does leap out when you read anything written by Gloria Steinem during that period or later by Gloria Steinem about that period, it is exactly that thing that you were just talking about. You are brought up short with just how recent an idea it is in the grand scheme of things that women should be equal citizens. Exactly, exactly. And in fact, you know, in America, reproductive rights have been lost to a great extent. And she was part of the movement of keeping that alive and sound. And it's it is perilous. It's perilous for men and women. If you want equality and it works both ways, then you these are kind of things you have to be concerned with and fight for.

35:56And she also said when there were discussions that feminism was only for white women or certain, well, I don't want to get into gender because I don't know where she is there, but she said that feminism is for everybody. It's not just for white women, which is how it was seen. But she is incredibly sensible was incredibly sensible was much needed. It wasn't never hysterical. And also I'm going to give you a little fact and this is the man related fact. She is Christian Bales mother in law or not mother in law stepmother. Well, bringing it back to cinema trivia there. Yes. Karen Krizanovic in Venice. Thank you for joining us. That is all for this edition of the daily thanks to our panelists today, Rainbow Murray and Philip Malleer. The show was produced by Thomas Waterhouse and research by Kayley Martin. Our sound studio manager was Mario LeBervin. I'm Andrew Muller here in London, the daily returns at the same time tomorrow. Thanks for listening.

37:16You