Wit or Wit-Out

0:00Hello everyone, welcome to the very first episode of WIT or Without. Our ode to Philadelphia told one story at a time. I'm your host, Dennis Valerino, with my longtime friend and co-host, Michael Moffitt. Michael, you know what Grandpa Valerino always said? Danny! Everybody got a story. And we're talking to local legends like Angelou Catoldi, Joe Conklin, Big Roop Harley, David Yusik Cannon, and incredible intriguing stories from people like Vince Marie, Captain Joe Ciccetti, Sister Mary Scullion, Vincent Deepa Squall, Eddie Berner, Amarie Kelly, Radio Legend, Mark Arrayfield, WMMR, Legend, Michael Maddalk Tearson, Chip Chantry, Martha Cooney, and today's first guest ever, Coach Phil Martelli. So if you're riding the L or stuck on a skewkel, however you digest your podcast,

1:03sit back, relax, turn it up because around here you got to decide, WIT or Without. I'm very excited about today's guest. When you think about Mount Rushmore of Philadelphia College coaches, you think of John Chainy, Fran Thunfie, Jay Wright, and you think of this man here today? Coach Phil Martelli. Coach, thanks for coming today. Thank you. I'm not sure I belong on that mountain. There's a lot of guys that have gone through there and coached, but I am honored to have represented St. Joseph and represented Philadelphia on those sidelines. And I stood on the shoulders of many great people. Jack Ramsey and Jim Linum and Roli Massimino, and to have stood alongside Fran Thunfie and Jay Wright, who are dear, dear friends, and John Chainy, remarkable man. So thank you for that. You're born August 31st, 1954. Where? Mount Clemens, Michigan. My father was in the Air Force at the time, and we were there for, I was told, I don't remember this, but we were

2:04there for nine months and then moved to Southwest Philadelphia, Barchroom Gardens, was raised in Southwest Philly until I was 12, 12 years old then moved to Delaware County, okay, Land Sound Delaware County. Martelli, are you 100 percent Italian? No, my mother's maiden name was McCormick. Can you tell us about your mom? The first thing that pops into my mind is she was stay at home forever, and then all of a sudden, maybe when I was in high school, she started to wait to get a picture set at a catering service. She came from a big family and my mother was never drove, never got a driver's license, and eventually worked at the Hilton right there at the University of Pennsylvania. She had a unique way of caring for each of us individually. I was the oldest of seven. I was the oldest of eight. I had a brother, a diet, a birth, and my mother was a reader, a reader, and she instilled that in all of us. She walked us to a public library every Tuesday afternoon in the

3:09summer. She came to every game. She never really had an opinion about coaching, nor to my father, but they came to every single game because they wanted to love their son. Yeah, tell us about your dad. My father was an interesting guy. He worked forever at DuPont on Grace Ferry Avenue in South Philadelphia. He was a chemist assistant. He was not an assistant chemist. He was a chemist assistant and then would leave there and work for Mr. Cordia Hospital in Southwest Philly. He was a billing agent there, worked at night, and he also sold tickets for the Philly's, probably the Sixers. He sold tickets at the racetrack up in Northeast Philly and never missed a game. Never missed a game. I played in high school. Never missed a game. I played in college. He was an unbelievably gregarious guy always with a thank you to everybody that he met and so appreciative

4:09of others efforts. He never, never turned down a request to help others and that was a lesson learned by both my mother and father. How was the honest island? My father just when I was young, he was very, very hard on the referees and then when I became a head high school coach, he and I had a meeting and I said, you know what, I think you have to take a step back off of that and he was great. He was an avid fan. He came to every practice that when I was at St. Joseph's came to every practice and watched and watched and didn't comment, would say hello and was always complimentary of the players. That economy of him being such a nice guy saying thank you to everyone and yet on the refs all the time. Well yeah, that's when I was, that's when I was young. He was really believed in fairness and I think there were times when he didn't feel like it was a fair shot. So you have seven siblings? Seven, yes. You want to talk about that? They all still with us? No, my brother passed away when he was at birth, my sister passed away when she was probably 50, maybe even younger than that.

5:20oldest girl works for the chamber comers, Chester County chamber comers. She has two children and four or five grandchildren. My, your great grandfather also. No, not me. No, not you. Okay, okay. No, I'm a grandfather of 10. Okay. My sister Rose lives in the large town. She's unbelievable. Her, her job was IC unit babies and NICUs. Tough job. My sister Patty Ampest the way she lived in Coatsville. My sister Christine lives in Coatsville and my brother Steven lives in Chicago. My sister Lisa the youngest is a school teacher for 30 some years in Ridley Township. She has twin girls. Very supportive family and different interests. Like no one else got into basketball, no one else got into coaching. No, no, my sister the oldest girl, Mary Ann, she, she does a

6:26robot training and she's done a lot of running in her life. You're the oldest, right? Yes. What role does that make you play in the family and did that help you in your coaching? That's a good question. I would say I don't know that it really impacted my coaching. The role that it played is that I probably was allowed to try things. Whether it was I'm just going to go to the courts and play and maybe I didn't have to check in when when they were younger and they had to check in, they had to be there. And obviously I got a lot of support. I knew it. I knew that it was my mother and father were always there. And my brother and sister they could go do their thing. Like it wasn't like they had to come to every game and there wasn't this adulation. Other than for my grandmother, my Irish grandmother. She adored you. She did. She thought I could be president and Pope at the same time. So you're born in 54. You're six when the 60 start. What's Philly like in the 60s? That's a really

7:26good question because I don't know. I don't know that I I I knew this. I knew that living in Southwest Philly, living in Philadelphia was a matter of what school you'd go to. So I went to St. Barnabas. And when you went home, you started when you were young and you eventually went to your street. And on your street you played box ball and wire ball and step ball. And in the alley, if the alley was big enough, you could play whistle ball. And obviously everybody's played football on the street and the telephone walls are the the end zones. No one's. No one's. No one's. No one's. No one was snowy. You played tackle and then I think when you get I'm going to say eight, nine, you find out your local playground and you went there every day. I was in that playground every single day. Finnegan at 69th and Dix. And when it was football, you played football and when it was baseball, you played baseball, you played it much longer baseball than the kids nowadays play baseball. I thought you played baseball a lot longer. And I can remember vaguely basketball

8:34at Tilden, junior high school, but only a little bit of basketball. Not I didn't wasn't into basketball until I moved to the suburbs. And I met these three CYO coaches and they were phenomenal. But I was a playground right. You know, we went to the playground and figured out a way to play. Morning, noon and night, right, you went home for dinner and you came back and you played and you hung out and you watched. I mean, you know, some of the older guys were into stuff and you'd be like, I don't know if that's really what I want to get into. And very territorial, as you well know, you were very territorial. Yeah. Like Finnegan was the best playground. Yeah. Outsideers aren't coming in here to play. You know, we have enough people. What about the Martelli Shore? What's a vacation? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not saying we're poor, but we didn't have, we didn't do like a week. We maybe would visit family for a day. But nothing, nothing strikes me as a sure you didn't

9:36go for a week. You didn't go to the boardwalk. I wasn't a thing. That wasn't a thing. Okay. All right. Yeah. Eight eight kids. One bathroom. Yes. How's that happened? How does that? You know, the way we live now. And then yes, the way I wrote down how they do it because my sister, my sister, Mary Ann, lives in my parents' home and when I go there, I'm like, I just I can't even imagine because we moved from the row home in Southwest to the single home and lands down. It doesn't it doesn't equate that you could do that. I had two twin sisters. I know how to be a where do you go to high school? St. Joe prep. How does like you said, you didn't get down to shores. Eight people now. How does how does somebody like Phil Martelli get to St. Joe's prep? How do you forward it? Fascinating story. Yeah. Okay. Fascinating story. I was at St. Phil Minas and lands down. I was in the eighth grade and I was fascinated with St. Joe prep without knowing anything about it because I thought it was the bridge to St. Joe College. I was a lunatic St. Joe College basketball

10:41fan and you were already thinking St. Joe's. I'm always thinking already thinking about well how do you go there? You must have to go to this St. Joe prep. Right. So in the course of and I was a good student. I was a good student and the nuns found a scholarship in the archives at St. Phil Minas. The McEwen family, Steve McEwen would go on to be the district attorney of Delaware County. His father was a judge. Judge McEwen. He had a son. Judge McEwen had a son who had passed away. They had dedicated a scholarship to St. Joe's prep in the name of their son. The nuns found it, told my mother about it. My mother told me one Sunday after Mass to go around, knock on the door and ask the judge if I could get that scholarship. Wow. And the judge gave it to you. And because I had been admitted, I had taken the exam, but I didn't have we didn't have $600. That was when schools were free. So there was not $600. And when I went around, the judge asked me some questions. He gave me the

11:46family scholarship. That's how I could go to St. Joe's prep. $600 as a freshman. By the time I was a junior, it was $1800. Well, triple. The first day that I went to school, I got on the trolley, I went to 69th Street. I went to 60, I went to the L because it's a half hour way or it's 10 miles. It's a wide, it's a different, different world from Delaware County. And then I got on the L, got to City Hall, took the Broad Street to Broad and Gerard and then walked over, came home the same way. And it was a little iffy. It seemed to me to be a lot of time, downtime. Right. And I was used to go, go, go, go, go. And my great school coach was a banker, brought in walnut. And he said, I'll drive you to school every day. He would drive me to school from lands down to Delaware County to 17th and Gerard. And then he would go park and he would work for it. And then coming home, I don't have a real recollection of coming how I got home because I was at basketball and

12:51many times I would probably get in a car with somebody headed to Delaware County and figure it out from when I got to Delaware County. What's your high school career like? I was on a Catholic League championship team in 1971. I played with an all-time great Philadelphia player, Maurice Howard. I could really pass. I could really understand. I was not very athletic, but I was very sure with the ball. I hope that I was a good teammate. I don't know that I was a great teammate. I was appreciative of playing the game. So I played freshman basketball at the prep. I played JV as a sophomore. I started varsity as a junior. I didn't start as a senior. We had a coaching change. And I was fascinated by basketball at a very early age. When do you start thinking about from player to coach? Ninth grade. Ninth grade. Ninth grade was when I started. I went back to the grade schools. When I was in college, I would go back and coach all-star teams, help with all-star teams. Did you meet anybody? It was Ninth grade. No, I mean, I played against

13:55on the playground of 58th in King Sessing. I was in ninth grade. I played against Joe Bryant when he was in ninth grade. That's Kobe's dad. Kobe's dad. He was a great player at Barchham and little South College at the time. I studied a lot. I studied basketball and how guys talk. Not the X's and those, but more how they dealt with all the other things. So it was a process, you know, along the way you play against and then end up coaching against Speedy Mars, all the legendary Catholic League coaches in all legendary gyms, iconic gyms. So it was all an education. And I considered everybody that I met through the game to be, as you open the show with the Demountain Rushmore. I consider all these people to be just extraordinary people that I had a chance to meet. You say that you went from junior year, starting senior year, not starting, but yet you still wanted to play in college. Absolutely. Were you being recruited? No. Were you looking?

14:58No, I would get some inquiries from what I didn't know. I didn't know Division 2, Division 3. I would get inquiries and I would answer them. There was always a thing about geography was a big deal to me. Like I was fascinated. I was fascinated as a young kid by politics. And I thought, you know what, Washington, D.C. would be decent. I didn't think of a thing about the cost. I never thought like this could be hardship for my family and financial aid and all those kind of things. I just wanted to be in a place where I could play. And then as I got involved with it and I talked to different schools, I thought the other thing is if you're going to sacrifice your time here, then there's only one reason to play. And that's to win championships. And so that's how I ended up at Y. And it was very late at Y. I was playing in a long time traditional summer league at Narbrith and the coach came up to me and said, do you want to come visit the school? And I was like,

16:03yeah, I mean, I didn't have a real geography on Chester compared to Lands down or Philadelphia or anything like that. I took the bus to visit the school. I took the bus by myself and walked around and the two young ladies from the admissions office walked me around and I was like, okay, this is pretty good. How do you do this? And then I had to go home and my father had to fill out the forms and it was in the summer when I decided. And that was hard because St. Joe Prep prepares you to go to college. So any number of people in my class were saying, I'm going here, I'm going there and you say to people, I'm not sure yet. And I do think, I do think that things like the non-sounding the scholarship to go to St. Joe Prep, I think that waiting that long to go to widener, I think it was influenced by a much greater power than myself. And it was really working God's plan. And had I not gone, had I not gone to St. Joe Prep, had I not gone to widener, had I not while I was at widener checked in with the all-time sports writer,

17:09Dick Weiss, to say I'm going to coach and him recommending me go to Kathy Russia's camp and work. And had I not met Kathy, I would not have met my wife Judy. Well, Kathy Kathy Russia's, so everyone knows the whole thing coach at a matter of time. The movie's about her. There's the Mighty Mac movie. The Gorgano that does. Right. Do you remember seeing Judy for the first time? Yes. Tell us. It was walking very similar to here. I walked up and sitting on the porch of this lodge in the Poconos where we were going to work basketball camp. There was a young lady sitting there and I thought she's really attractive and just went about my business and found out she was a counselor and she was a Mighty Mac. She was friends with Dick Weiss. I was friends with Dick Weiss and we kind of hit it off from there. Where does Phil Martelli ladies man take a Judy for her first date? Oh, this is a great story. Franklin Field Temple versus Penn State. I think Penn State wins like 10-9 on a late field goal. And Paterno's not even there yet. Is he? Oh, he's Paterno's there already?

18:15Paterno's the coach. Yeah. Temple, Temple Penn State at Franklin Field. 75. 75. Yeah, September of 75. Okay. Free tickets from Dick Weiss so didn't cause anything there and I don't know where I parked to go to Franklin Field but I've rolled bowl out on a court and Judy's there and Phil's there. Who wins? Well, she could really shoot. You had no one to pass to. If it was a shooting contest, she would win. So that'll put you to that. Okay, just leave it at that. Did her parents like you? Yeah. I think they you know wondered because I was a college, I was a college senior. She had graduated. She was working for Western Savings Bank. You don't fall in formalities as a college senior. You know, you kind of come and go and your timing is different. You know, like you might not go out till 9 o'clock, 10 o'clock.

19:16Right. How long is it before you say get engaged? I know you're always quick. It was our first date was September and we were engaged in December. Wow. The kids nowadays would not understand that. It took me 15 years. Yeah. So that's four months your senior. I'm a senior in college. How do you get money for, let's say a ring? This is another one. You hit all the good stories here. I want to see my grandfather who lived in Southwest Philadelphia on Grace Fairy. He lived off the Grace Fairy Avenue in 29th Street. paternal maternal maternal grandfather. I told him what I was doing. I was going to get engaged. He said, okay, you need to go to this place. You need to go to this place. And he told me how to knock on the door. Told me how to knock on the door. Tell him your Oscars. That was his nickname Oscar. Because he worked at Oscar Meyer. Asked me to knock on the door, telling my Oscars grandson, they would take care of it. And so I was sitting there and I said, I don't have anything.

20:17I don't even need to give the guy. You just went knocked. No, no, no. I went out when I was sitting with my grandfather. Oh, okay. My grandfather said, oh, okay. I said, could you lend me the money? And he went down into his basement and came back and gave me $600 or whatever it was. He goes, you know, when you get on your feet, you can pay me back on it. And I went and I knocked on the door and that's what happened. That's awesome. That's a great grandfather. What's your degree? Yeah. I have a certificate to teach secondary, secondary, and I have a political science. Okay. So you graduate. You get married. You get married. We're getting married that November. And I'm looking in search now because of search for a job. Yeah. Because of what I was driven by, I had a basketball coaching job. I was a JD basketball coach at Cornell, Ohio, high school. I didn't have a full-time job. So that was tough for Judy and her family because

21:21they're planning this wedding and they plan them to the end degree. And I'm saying, yeah, but I don't know what I'm doing yet. So I leaned back on the IHM's. My aunt was an IHM, two aunts that were IHM. And I get a coaching, I get a teaching job. My first teaching job was at St. Martin, at tours on Roosevelt Boulevard. I'm living in Delaware County. I'm driving to St. Martin at tours, teaching seventh grade. I made $4,000. Well. And then I would drive from there and I would drive to Ohio and I would coach a JV basketball. And I would work in the summer to work the camp. But I bet probably at the end of the day, I probably didn't bring home $18,000. Wow. So we were married in November. Judy was working for a bank. We didn't have any. I mean, we had

22:24kindness of her family. We didn't have much to go on. And then I did that for two years. Then I went back and worked for Kathy Rush. I ran her basketball camps all year long, planning and promoting and worked there in the summer. And got the coaching job at Bishop Kenerk High School. Two years out of high school, we moved. We moved to Nars town. It was a little bit better working for Kathy. Coach in the Kendrick. I ran a basketball camp. So there were some other things that I was doing. Are you teaching still? Yeah, I'm teaching. No, no, I'm just working for the camp. Do that for a couple years. And then I stop and I take a teaching job at the protectory St. Cabe's Hall. All the kids recorded, you decayed it. Okay. And I was teaching there. I bought into a bar. So I was a bar owner, thinking it was just be cash. I have to cash and it wasn't very challenging business. And then you're the head coach at Bishop Kendrick. And I'm the head coach at Bishop Kendrick. This blew my mind. Your assistant coaches. Geno or Emma? How does

23:28Gino become your assistant coach? Well, we worked both work to Kathy Rush's basketball camp. And I knew he was a graduate of Bishop Kendrick. He was coaching. He was coaching Bishop McDevick Girls Basketball and then St. Joe's University or St. Joe College at the time, basketball, which him fostered. And we would be out after working camp. And he said, I really want to coach boys. And I said, well, when I get this, I got the Kendrick job. And I said, would you think about coming and joining me? And he did. And we were together. Neither of us had children at the time. We were probably together. 350 days a year. We treated that program as if it was a college program. Wow. There's 65 year old guys now. 70 year old guys, right? You go no bar and they're sitting there going, yeah, my head coach was Phil Martelli. Am I assistant coach? Was Gina or Emma? Yeah, I mean, you're calling the liar. Yeah, those guys are probably, well, I was 23 and I'm 71. So the oldest kid might have been 18. So yeah, they could be 60 mid 60s and younger. In fact,

24:35one team stays in touch. One team is on a text chain. They must have 25 guys. And it's all the time. When something happens with Chino, they'll, they'll texted to the whole group or something happens with me. And they, they've included me in there. The only thing that we haven't done is been able to get them all together, which we would like to do because Gino has a home in Abel on New Jersey. I have a home in Abel on New Jersey and it would be really cool to see those guys and to hear their remembrances because I don't have a great memory. I just know that I am so grateful to all the players that I coach at Bishop Kendrick because I can make a lot of mistakes and I got better because of them allowing me to make mistakes. How long were you there? I was at Kendrick for seven years. And Chino? Chino was with me for two years. Then you go to St. Joe's. But I was part time. Well, Jim Boyle was the coach at St. Joe's at the time. He was my coach at Widener. He knew

25:38I was interested in coaching. And I had, I had success at high school. But I was always wondering if, what would it be like to coach that next level? And he all for me a job and it was part time. So if you can imagine part time for the Catholics is really part time. I'm there a year and a full time job. I was teaching still. I was teaching at St. Caves Hall and I would go to St. Joe's every afternoon. Some road trips I couldn't go on the road trips because I had school. A year in, one of the assistant coaches, Lee's and Jim Boyle said, would you like do this? And I said, yeah, sure. At that time, I have said, yeah, I would love to learn more about recruiting and administering a program. And so that's when I started. I was at St. Joe's for 10 years with John Griffin and Jim Boyle. Jim Boyle leaves. He gets another job. He also retires. He announces his retirement. And now there's a question of whether they'll keep you on. So I knew that at the time Paul Cromier was a finalist.

26:44John Griffin was a finalist and I've reached out to both of them and said, I would like to stay if that's possible. If you would have me, I would like to stay. Knowing that I have three kids and what, where am I thinking? Well, I'm going to go back and be a high school coach and high school teacher. But I would really like to stay in college. And John was kind enough when he came to interviewing me and asked me to stay with him. And you stay there another five years under John. When he leaves, he doesn't go anywhere, right? He's not. He just retired of coaching. So he went back into the financial world. Okay. Did he retire? Did he retire knowing that you were going to take over? That was not like, no, he just retired and we're, he hoped that that would happen. That wasn't set up. And then, no. And then the finalist for James Brewzer Flint and myself and James Brewzer Flint was a alum. No alum had ever been hired at St. Joseph since 1946. So there was a history. He was a player of very, very, very affable guy, good basketball man, Philadelphia in the whole

27:47bit. And we went through the process and they called and said that they would like me to be the coach. Great. And then Brewzer gets a job at Drexel with a couple years. No, he gets a job at UMass first. I didn't know that he was the coach at UMass. Can we stop? Stop for a second and talk about how you're juggling all your hats. Now that you become the head coach, your father, like you said, of three husband, coach recruiter. I was always, how do you do that? Every part of being the head coach. And it was my teams and my university before my family. Knowing that they were all bought in because my wife had played and she had coached a little bit. My sons were into the game. My daughter was into the game. And we were in the fabric of that job. So if it was recruiting or summer camp, radio show, TV show, whatever, it was going to be done to the best of my ability. Knowing that it was going to provide my family opportunities. If I was good at what I was doing.

28:53So there were sacrifices. There were any number of family occasions that Judy went alone. There were things missed. But I always balanced this with I also had the opportunity in the middle of the day if there was an awards assembly at school and my children were involved. I could go in the middle of the day because I was the master of my own time. If that man I had to work later that I wasn't supposed to go early. But I was the coach and the representative of St. Joseph's University 24 hours a day. And so whatever that entailed, I wanted to be a part of. retrospectively, I don't think I was as helpful to my assistant coaches. Some of the things I could have dealt to them and let them get more comfortable with all of them. I get them more comfortable with public speaking. Get them more comfortable with the organizational part of a program. I went eight is eight. If you came to my summer camp, I was there every minute of every day. I was the first person you saw on the morning. And if it was an overnight camp, I checked on every room at night. That camp

29:56had my name on it. It was not going to be run anyway other than with my hand on it. You were hands on. Absolutely. Now you have your dream job. I do been thinking about this for my whole life. And you're 41, 42, 42, 40. And it's 1995. Yeah, so 95, I would be 40, 30 years. What's that feel? I think to get this real dream. It was I didn't know. I did not know my first year how long my contract was or what I was being paid. I just wanted to do that job. You're not negotiating well. No, I didn't. And really as it had negotiate. I only did it once. And I would never do it again after that contract. So you're in your first year? How that? Do you remember your first practice? Oh, yeah, I remember my first practice. I know it was well organized. I know that it was an emphasis on what I thought was was important and how I wanted to run a practice. I can never,

31:01ever turn back the benefits from my high school experience. So I ran a similar practice in high school because I learned how to do that from Kathy Rush. It's funny because you say all those men that you were, you know, and yet she taught me how to run a practice. And so that that idea, yeah, I can remember the excitement. I can remember the focus was always in everything that I did my career was can we improve? Can we improve? Not just in basketball, but can we improve as a program? And that's what I focused on every day in practice. Your first year go pretty well. We played in the NIT Championship game, bus loads and bus loads of people went and took over in Madison Square Garden and we lost to Alabama or South Carolina. We lost to South Carolina in the NIT Championship game. Second year, sweet 16. Second year was sweet 16. Lost to Kentucky. And at year, you ranked 12. Yeah. Pretty successful. Yeah, it was, it was, again, we had, we had

32:05filled out fiends with filled out fiends that were tough-minded. We did some unusual things. We, we, we played two games in Utah. One to make the sweet 16 against Kentucky. And the NCA said, do you want to go to your next location, which is San Jose? And I looked at them like they were crazy. I said, no, we're going home. I have filled out fiends on my team. These kids are homesick already. They've been here for two games. We're not going to, we went home from Utah to Philadelphia for a day and a half and then went to San Jose. So as I had coach, when you say filled-off you, tell me the difference between a filled-off you kid playing basketball and when you get someone from outside the area, you know, anywhere else. Well, filled-off you kid, I think more it's the filled-off you kid because you can be from outside the area and have the filled-off you trade. Filled-off you trade to me is that whatever it is, it could be a sales job, it could be a school teacher, it could be whatever. Filled-off you go in, put your heart and soul into it and you

33:08recognize that you're not always going to win. You're not going to get every sale, you're not going to win every game. But you get knocked down, you get bloodied. And this is true of, of why we idolize certain athletes in Philadelphia. They get up and they say, okay, let's do that again. All we want them to do is to show us that they're human and that they'll bleed and they'll sweat. And that's what a filled-off you basketball player does. They've been well-coached, growing up whether it be on the playgrounds or on travel teams in their school year, they're well-coached and they are not, they never give you a sense of entitlement. That's what I like about filled-off you kids. Dirty, they do whatever it needs to be. They'll let you coach them. Coach them is not criticizing them. Coaching them is trying to lift them up. So that would be how I would describe. Something on the top of my head, how has the kids changed from, you know, 75 to the end of your career? Like, was there a big change? I think the change didn't... No, they still want to be,

34:12they still want you to care. And they still want you to care about them. Not care about your rules. Right? So I don't think that that... I don't think that's changed. I think they want to be communicated with, not at, communicate with people. The biggest change is that... And that's because society, we've raised them to tell us what they think or what they're feeling. I think because we've raised them to tell us what they think or what they're feeling, we've lost their ability to listen. So I think, yeah, you have to adapt because it's a different world. Like, just from the, from my beginning of my career to the end, prevalence of social media and the pressure of social media, and the importance in their lives of social media. So you have to be aware of it. But I still believe that you can, to this day, if you have their trust and they have your trust that they're in this for the right reason, I still think you can coach and it's not, you know, not the highway and my way and all that, kind of nonsense and run them till they're dragging and... No, no, no, no. I'm just saying,

35:14you know what? I can care about you and I can coach you. Just like, to me, they really want. Young people want loving parents. But the loving parent has the ability to say yes when yes is appropriate and no, when no is appropriate. We're not doing enough of that. We're not doing that enough for that in coaching. I heard you want to say that I'm not my kid's friend and I love that. Yeah, I love that. I don't think too many parents try to be their friend. Yeah, I don't think it's a like and it sounds harsh. No, it sounds harsh, but you don't have to like, but certainly love supersedes like. Little different. All right, so back to your coaching career. We're three or four years before Jamir. There's a time between that sweet 16 and Jamir shows off. How's that for four years? Do you remember that? Or is it just that time? I don't really remember. I do know that there was like, you know, guys like Andre Howard transferred from Pitt back. He was from Overbrook,

36:17Marvin O'Connor transferred from from Villanova back. So it all worked. That all worked. I remember competition in Philadelphia hadn't changed much. You know, like it was Steve Lapis and Speedy and so it was it was a challenge, but I always wanted to I always wanted to be the best in Philadelphia at media relations. I wanted to be the best in camping. I wanted to be the best at recruiting because I thought the competition was so severe like challenging. Like it was it was a healthy challenge. So, you know, during those periods, it was it was a build up. Okay. It was a build up. How do you get Jamir to come to St. Joseph? We we the collective staff overwhelmed him with our presence and made him feel special and researched everything about everything and Chester that was important to him and family was important to him and knowing that he wanted to play early was important to him. We never promised anything, but it was obvious that he was going to

37:20play a lot and he was going to play early. We lined it up that the players around him were going to accent his positives, which was his winning approach and his work approach to the game. First couple of years pretty good. Really great. We played in a tournament in San Diego, we were in 9 seed and we played Stanford, number one seed to the buzzer. Sophomore year, we had those whole guys back. We came in. We were nationally ranked going in and we didn't. I did not handle it well. We had 16 years. We did not handle it well and we played in the NIT and then junior year, we were not thought of very highly and we went out. We made the NCAA tournament. The Lante West was playing full time on that team and then the Lante got hurt. We lost in the Atlantic 10 tournament and then lost in the NCAA tournament and over time to a really good all-burn team and then he makes the decision to come back. Did he ask for your counsel then? No, he and I talked and I said,

38:23I will gather information if you want, but I also want to avoid anybody thinking, I don't want anyone to invest for you. I don't want anybody telling you what your coach is only going to think about himself. We had one discussion about that. He kind of maneuvered his way through the process with a great mentor, Earl Pearson, Dr. Earl Pearson. I can remember he came in and told me I'm going to come back and at that moment in time I recognized that we are about to take off on something that's absolutely extraordinary. Yeah, and that's 2003-04. Talked about it at Nozium probably since then. I guess it never gets tired of tireing talking about it. No, because it's the perspective. I mean, the Aaron Bracey's written a terrific book, Sowing With The Hawks and he takes you through. Yeah, it's fascinating because his perspective, because I have my perspective. I don't have this perspective and here's what I know. The impact, it drove home the impact of your team because you could be at church. Somebody comes

39:28out after church and they're smiling and you know why they're smiling. The dry cleaner, the stopping for gas and to know that you had that impact on people to make them smile and to make them cry. When we lost Tokyo on the state, we came home on a Saturday night. I was Sunday. I went to Mass and as I went to walk out of Mass, there was a dear friend sobbing crying. So I started crying and I knew why because that moment in time would never pass again. It drove me. It's what I always wanted to repeat, but that moment in time to have captured the entire country because when people walk in and say, this is your gym and I would say, yeah, this is this is it. This is your office. Yeah, no big deal. It was about those kids that were going to be on the court. All right. So those moments in time, that's what I took away. When people say, well, what did you take away from that long career? And I would say, yeah, I took away my memories

40:31of my relationships and they'll they'll never leave me. I mean, in this phone, there's going to be a call today from Rob Hartjorn who was on that team. He he calls me almost every day. I tried to reach Jamir the last couple nights when I was at a six-hers game and we connected via text, but like they're always in my phone, those guys. And I will be eternally grateful for all players for the memories and the relationships that they've allowed me to create. Yeah, 30 years of coaching. That is that is, yeah, till that point, I guess, and that's two weeks. It's basically two weeks, right? The the run in the in the NCAA tournament. It was two weeks. It was over two weeks. It was over a year, 27 and now over two weeks. It's two weeks. Bang. It was over two weeks, but the whole year felt like that's a cherry on your whole career. Yeah, do you felt like you were in a bubble the whole year with with I remember to be alone while at Genette team. Yeah, the long day last year. Does anyone here from him? He's here from him directly. I hear from his mother. I hear from people

41:35that see him on the streets, the Washington DC area. Right. It's heartbreaking as much as it's a blessing to talk to Jamir and him and the conversation with I love you coach or Rob Hartjorn. I love you coach to know that we did what we could, but we don't have a power over that disease really. Right. It hurts. It hurts every single day. Yeah. So then that's 2004, 2009, your book comes out. Don't call me coach, right? Reluctantly. Yeah. 2011, you passed Jack Ramsey as the second all-time winning his coach in St. Joe's then and then you pass Billy Ferguson to be number one. I guess then we skip up to 2018. Jill Bordenstein takes over for Dom DeGilio. He's a long time friend, 30 years and then I'm free 19. 2019. You were unceremoniously let go. Did you see that coming? No. No. I didn't see it coming to have served what I thought was honorably as a part of the school.

42:41I would just say that the opportunity to fix it wasn't very good the last year? No. Last year was not good. I was not good enough and it didn't have anything to do with the play. It was, it was I didn't reach enough of them to get going in the right direction, you know, and again, anybody has a right to have anybody that they want coached their team. So heartbroken, yes, devastated, yes, family impacted, yes, but it's all the other people that were impacted. The assistant coaches and their families, they didn't ask for that. Right. The divisions within the school itself or with a lot or whatever. So you once said the friend Don Fee that when he was I think fired at Temple, you said that you think that he earned being able to call his own shot on the way out. Do you feel that way about yourself? Yes. And you weren't giving that chance. No. How long to take it to get over something like that? I mean, 40. Yeah. That's still you end up. Well, I just I just knew that I had more to give. Yes. I had a locker room

43:46that I could go into. I could help. It was a perfect situation because Duwan Howard was the first year coach. I knew the ins and outs of the NCAA and that kind of thing. I didn't know what it was like at a big school. So, Duwan, because of a recommendation from John Cal Perry for him to take a chance, I appreciate it. I went there to serve. I'm glad I did it. Duwan's a wonderful guy. You were there. Five. Five. Huge, huge, huge basketball and cyclopedia with Duwan with offensive basketball and showed me love of school. He loved his school. All the school had done for him and he wanted to pass that on to the players. He worked at individual development with players. He worked at recruiting and I went and got away from us a little bit. He got ill his heart. He had a heart procedure and got away from us. And I could have done more, but I was just so respectful of his love of school. He had love of school and love of family. I wish I had been more forceful terms of when he had his heart procedure. He came back too quick. Things got frayed that particular year because of that. So, you're Donut Michigan. What are you doing now? I come home.

44:51I come home with the idea of what can I do to make a difference? So, create a podcast for make a difference. And you're doing that with your nephew. I speak, schools, corporates, talks, organizations, but I think I can make a difference. I don't want to go there and tell war stories. Not interested in yucking it up. I mean, obviously I consider myself a little bit of a tongue and cheek humorist. So, I can do that. I want to dabble in broadcast TV. So, last year I had an opportunity to work for Fox. I worked for Drexel. I worked for ESPN. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the preparation. Do you enjoy the pre-imposed game show? Are you looking to do? No, I like the game. I like the game itself. And then I keep trying to think of different avenues where I can help. So, I've started to fill it off your coaching academy. Okay. I filled out for coaching academies. Geared to grade school, middle school, recreation teams, travel teams, boys, girls, fifth through eighth grade coaches,

45:52and I want to show you how to perfect your practice. You all care. You're unbelievable. Donating your time. Let me help you work with your one hour practice. And it's a three hours program where I speak high school coaches speak. And then we put a high school team through the actual practice. Okay. I think obviously with VCU, I consult with VCU because my sons are the head coach and his associate head coach. Can I interject one thing? I think when I was reading the stuff, Jim Boyle's grand son is on there. So, it continues. Yes. Well, it's the best basketball world. The basketball world sounds big. It's a small little circle. And then the other thing that has been really helpful for me is that I can be a present grandfather. So, whether it's go watch my granddaughter play fifth and sixth way basketball, coach pitch, baseball, soccer, school activities. My daughter has four children. She lives a mile from us. My other grandchildren are in Richmond, Virginia, six of them. And I want to stay in touch with them.

46:53Great town as often as I think. Anything I missed or anything you want to add or say today before we I just I think they I think the biggest opportunity and you've done a really good job with this is coaching is what I did. That's not who I was. And I don't minimize the coaching. I understand that but who I am because of the way that I was raised and the way that I was coached and the way that I was mentored. That's what I'm proud of stuff. The records are the records, the numbers are the numbers. And I just keep going back to everybody out there that's listening. Protect your memories and protect your relationships because at the end of the day that's what you're measured on. You're not going to be measured on. Well, this was your job and and you did it for this number of years. Now, I think it's all measured. You're all measured on who you are and not what you do. Well, thank you coach. This has been a beautiful hour that I've had. Thank you. It's been perfect. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Well, Michael coach just left exactly what I had envisioned this podcast.

47:59Our ode to Philadelphia told one story at a time and we picked a great story to start off with. I have to thank coach Phil Martelli. I got his phone number from a friend called him. I might have met him two, three times over course of 20 years. I don't even know if you remember me. I pitch him on. I'm starting a podcast about Philadelphia people about their life, about their story. And he was like Jerry Meiranger. Uh, who's car we going to take? He's just like, oh, yeah, sure. Where, where, when I can't do that day. I'll do this day. Come here. He showed up. Daddy did. What a Philadelphia life. What a story guy with character. I loved it. When we have a season two, he's coming back because I could just sit there and listen to him forever. Great communicator. Like you could tell he's a coach. Like why why he's such a great coach and respected coach and a respected person around that are area because the the communication and the

48:59way that he speaks is above and beyond. But grew up just like us. Absolutely. Right. Playing wall ball, stick ball, wire ball, football, anything in the streets. It was fun. It reminds me of Joe Conklin. Used to do this whole skid about Philly kids playing football in the streets. And that's what it reminds me of. Yeah. From Red Car to Blue Car. I remember getting home from school, about 315, 330. I knew to get home, get my books inside the house and school bag and get down to Douglas because, you know, doing a winter time. We're going to play some two hand touch football in the school yard. During the summertime of warm months, we were running basketball and that's exactly what he did with his friends. And it's like like the Apple non-Sanies, they related to me, but like the way we are in the city, I guess everybody did the same way it felt feels like. Conklin, what it means is grow up and fill it off. Yeah. We all have that share share experience. Parents were the same. Our neighborhoods were

50:04different but the same. You know, we all thought we had the best neighborhood. We're from the best area. I was pretty cool. I got a lot of stuff out of that. And I still would have to think about all the things that he talked about, right? Yeah. Just amazing. Just one of the most interesting things to me before coaching and everything he dabbled in the bar business and wanted to be a bar owner. But he always wanted to be a coach and he got it accomplished. One of the things to stuck with me is all the men that he did say came before him and he learned from. And then when they ask him straight out or what he talks about or who he gives the most credit to, right? Who was it? Kathy Rush. Kathy Rush. Yeah. You know what? To just say, I always say like men are great leaders. Like that and like, and women are great leaders. But I believe women are more detailed oriented than men. Don't get his cancel done there first. Yeah, right. Please. But yeah, she told him what did he say? She taught me how to run a practice and plan. Yeah. Right? He credit her. And that's where he found

51:08his wife. Yes. Judy. Can you imagine in that household, he's probably not the best basketball player. Hey, right. They might be the best at teaching basketball. Maybe. Maybe. Now he's got a son down of VCU, which I had a daughter. Yes. Who played a VCU? Girls lacrosse. And now she's made a life in Richmond. And she goes to the games and and cheers him on. It's pretty neat. The other thing I found amazing, the guy, you know, people like this don't get enough credit. He in middle school started thinking about going to St. Joe's to play at St. Joe's, played in high school. Probably realized he wasn't going to play at St. Joe's, but always loved St. Joe's went to high school to get there. Then eventually works his way back there to coach coaches all those years there. Has the best year of his life in one 2003 and four with Jameer. There's another Philadelphia story and has a 27 and 0 year gets the lead eight bounce here. There he's in the final four.

52:10You know, the big guys came call for him. I don't know. My memory, I think I remember Rutgers, maybe Penn State, other biggy, seat and hall, maybe Providence, all sniffing around. For some reason, I think Memphis, I'm not sure. This is just 20 years later, 20 some years later. But the big money can and he could have cashed in. But his heart is at St. Joe's. He stays at St. Joe's. He loves it. He loves the city. Raising his family here, stays here. Turns all that down. Not enough credit for that. Then this outsider and I hate the big badly of someone that I don't know and I have no idea the whole story. But you know, he's there until two to eighteen and then he gets sick and that's the thing he gets. Right? By Jill Bowden Steiner. She's not even a Philadelphia. She's from Indiana and she just doesn't know. Like a guy like that, like he said, he should have been should have been allowed to leave on his own terms. That's right. Yeah. That's right. And it still hurts him. Absolutely. It still hurts him. The Hulk will never die inside him. That's for sure. Yes.

53:14But what a great story. You're going to keep it on the positive. Yeah. What a great guy. I really appreciate him coming here. I hope that everybody enjoys it. The way we enjoyed it or the way I enjoyed finding out about stuff. Geno, Orianna. That guy's one what? 12 national championships with Yukon. 12 ladies ladies. What's that mean? No. Is that worse than them? No, it's not. No, it is not. He was his assistant coach. One is younger. Again, another Kathy Rush story. Right? Yeah. Well, you know, Bradley Cooper has been wanting to come on. But hey, this is a true field of your story. Right? And he stayed here. Bradley went off to what? LA went to Villanova, but then took off the Georgetown. Then he went to LA. Wait, he went to Villanova then Georgetown. Yeah. Oh my god. That is totally. He went to Villanova for one year, which is still Philly. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. But then he takes

54:15off the Georgetown. Oh, what are you going to do? So anyway, Bradley, keep trying. We'll try to fit you on soon. But I really appreciate. I hope everyone had a great time listening. Thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you. We're out.