Wolves, Grizzlies, & Birds in Idaho with Pat Cudmore

Oh my gosh, you are back in the studio, sir. It has been years. How are you back in the saddle again?

I am good. I'm old. I'm tired, but I'm not totally retired. And I'm a bird hunting machine.

God bless you, sir.

Listen, you and I, we got connected years ago from our mutual friend, Burke Mantell. Shout out, Burke. I put out a clip yesterday. He's the reason we have turkey hunting season. Yeah.

In the entire state of Idaho, he moved here, and I think 80 or 81. He said there were only like a couple dozen turkeys in the entire state. And he worked with fishing game and a bunch of biologists imported tens of thousands of turkeys. And now I was at a friend's house just the other day picking something up. And here's this turkey walking down the middle street. I was like, Burke, this is from Burke Mantell.

No. That is a great grandchild of Burke Mantell. Great, great, great, great, great grandchild. Yeah. It is funny because you mentioned Burke. I hunt with him about three or four times a month because he's a bird hunting machine too.

But one of the things we did because, Connolly, who was the director then, and Burke were so interested in getting turkeys here, that they wanted to get turkeys from the other states. So what they did in that, in Canyon County, where they're in those days in the early 80s, there were thousands of peasants, thousands of peasants. So we made a deal with, with Texas.

We made a deal with Texas that they would trade us a peasant for a turkey straight across. And they thought they were screwing us and we thought we were screwing them. So it was a pretty good deal. And they gave us, and I'd go out with another guy. We had traps all over the county. And I'd be catching 30, 50, 100 today. And then we'd be shipping them to Texas. And then they'd be bringing the turkeys back. And that's how we got them, that's how we got what's called a real grand turkey.

Which is the Texas, which is the turkey found in Texas and Oklahoma. We got those to Idaho. And they're a little different. They don't have as much white on them as the Miriam, which is the one we first planted in here. They're a little bit different. They got tan on their, on their tail feathers and so on. They're beautiful. And just a great thing because there are six varieties of turkeys in the world. And all six of them were in North America.

There were never a turkey ever in history in Asia or Europe or, or the Middle East or Australia or Africa or anything. They only are here. So if you see them somewhere else, they were moved from here.

And so the really exotic one that that's in like Central America. What's that one called? That's the oscillated. Yeah. Do that one.

Oh, isn't that guy something like it looks like the craziest tropical bird got busy with like a normal turkey. And it's shaped like a turkey. You get it or colors are imaginable. It's like somebody's crazy fever dream.

I said that a that a turkey from Texas went down there and made love with a peacock. That's what it is. That's what they look like.

And they hang out in the like rainforests, right? Yeah. Well, they're they're mainly found in the Yucatan Peninsula and a little bit into Guatemala. Gotcha.

But if you and see people have figured that out because you have their six varieties of turkeys in the world and I have five of the six. So I'm called Mr. Turkey.

But if I can get that last one, I'll be known as Sir Turkey.

And so but the people down there have figured it out because they're all on private land that they charge you $4,000 to get one now.

So I've been saving my shekels. So I can go down there next spring and get the get the last turkey. So I'll be Sir Turkey. God bless you.

I got in my house. I've got five of them. They're tails and their beards and everything and they're right across from our dining room table. And the wife says, well, as long as you got five, you might as well get the six one.

So she's even for it. That's a good wife. That's a good one. You Turkey's are not the only thing. You were the Wolf reintroduction. Wolf and Grizzly Bear Recovery Coordinator.

These are hot topics. I had one of the fishing game guys and fishing game commissioners Brody Harsh Barger in the last year.

And he was talking about Grizzly Bear's in his front yard, you know, like playing on a swing set and stuff. Pretty wild.

You can't throw a football and without hitting somebody who has a story about how wolves have obliterated their hunting grounds.

So you're kind of like historically and Idaho. You're kind of like a hot item. Like you're kind of one of the hottest guests I've ever had.

Well, it's kind of interesting that the guys that are the wolf haters, they have their stories all mixed up.

And I'd like to get names so I could call them and get it straight because they don't.

The feds originally told us that if we would we would get into bed with them instead of fighting them on this recovery because they said,

we're going to recover wolves. If you like it, fine. If you don't like it, we're going to do it anyway.

So why fight them? And so we decided and they said, if you will play ball with us, we will let you make your management plan.

And then if it can't be like the management plan, kill every wolf that we plant, it's got to be something that would recover wolves.

But if we do so, we will allow you to have a hunting season on them when you get to 150 wolves.

And that's 15 breeding pairs and we were going to put them in the wilderness when we were starting this.

And then we would be testing them and you can tell because they always go to a meadow.

That's where wolves like to go. If you look at the meadows in the wilderness, that's where you've got a bunch of wolves around every meadow.

Okay, so we would probably be able to have gotten a pretty good idea of how many we had.

And then the fed said at 150, we'll let you have a season. And we're not going to let's us slaughter them.

But if let's say it's 150 there, they're going to have probably 50 young.

And so if you don't kill them, it's going to be 200 that year. And then if you don't kill them the next year, they grow really rapidly.

And so we said great. So I formed a Wolf Recovery Committee.

And we had wolf haters, we had wolf lovers, we had sportsmen, we had ranchers and whole group on there.

And what we did was we were working on a management plan that would protect everybody's interest to the best.

Everybody had a really strong, this is an animal that has a strong feelings on it.

Whether you like them or you dislike them or for whatever.

There's nobody in between.

No, there's nobody that sits on the fence on the wolves.

No, so we had a plan made and everybody agreed to it.

Well, we had to get it approved by the Senate. So we're standing outside the Senate.

And I said everybody, everybody's still okay. We're fine on this. We're going to go in.

We're going to propose our plan. Everybody said, yes, we walked in there and the cattlemen went, we don't like this plan.

They're not going to pay for guard dogs that are killed.

We don't want this and we don't want to have any part of it.

And I'm going, I might choke you out.

So they lied to us on this.

And so when they were powerful enough that when they decided they didn't want it, the plan stopped.

And that was it. That was a cattle associate. I don't cattle associate.

And so this was back in like 90, 91, right in there.

And so they killed it.

And so the Fed said, okay, if you guys killed their management plan, we're going to put them in there.

And we're going to give all the money and the control to the Nezverse Indian tribe.

And the legislature, I remember that there were several people in the house that were going,

we've stopped wolf recovery because we're calling their bluff on giving that to the Nezverse Indian tribe.

They won't do that. And about a week later, the Nezverse tribe had the wolf management and all the money every year for wolf management, a couple million dollars a year.

And control of wolves went to the Nezverse tribe.

And then they immediately passed a piece of legislation that said that the fishing game can't say the W word.

You could say a wolf, but you can't say a wolf.

And you couldn't accept money. You couldn't go to a meeting where wolves were discussed.

And you have no control over them.

And that went on for eight years. And during that period of time, that 50 that they, not 35 or 40, whatever it was that they introduced,

is growing by 15% every year.

And a guy in Barrelake, an extreme eastern California, an extreme eastern Idaho for, let's say.

Now, if he has a problem with a wolf and is in his cattle, do you think the Indians in Nezverse up a lap way or earlier,

you're even going to care about it a whole lot?

They didn't have anybody to go down to take care of problem wolves.

And so the numbers got crazy and they got the 2000 and by the end of that eight year time.

And 2000 and what happened then is the fishing game had to start closing seasons on elk hunting.

Because that's way more than the number one predator on elk as humans.

Number two is bears, number three is mountain lions.

And the poor old wolf that everybody hates is a distant fourth.

He doesn't even come into the ball game on killing elk as compared to the other three.

And so, but when you get that many, they had, because we still had all the other predators, that became quite a problem.

And I remember my area that we had hunted for 30 years got closed.

And quick question.

So what you're saying is no, even though the wolf population had exploded, they were still,

like gross numbers, harvesting fewer than these other categories.

But there was such little wiggle room after the other predation categories got checked.

Because again, you had humans, you had bears, you had cats, and then you had wolves, right?

So the first three were already harvesting the surplus.

And they didn't quit.

And so by the time you got to the fourth one, wolves, all the others are still doing what they were doing.

And there's no more surplus.

You just can't keep doing that.

Got it.

And so you couldn't go kill every mountain lion.

And you couldn't go kill every bear because the public wouldn't allow that.

And so the only option was to close some seasons because the wolves were having a major issue.

And you couldn't go to the mountain at this.

No, at that point, well then finally, after eight years of legislature went holy cow, what have we done?

And they immediately got rid of that legislation that said we couldn't go to a meeting,

and we couldn't take any money and whatever.

And then they said we'll accept that management plan because we're in trouble.

And it was really funny because the ones that were the most mouthy about it,

and were the ones that were so bad about fishing game and about the nests first tribe and about wolves and whatever,

they all of a sudden were, they were real quiet.

And none of those that were real mouthy and said they'll never give it to the nests first.

They never said a word.

And they were scared now because they were going to lose their position because they had screwed up.

But they didn't want to let everybody know they screwed up.

But after eight years, we had no elk essentially left in a whole lot of areas.

So we got the plan back, we got the plan accepted, got that law passed out of there,

and we took over the wolves again at approximately 2000.

Maybe 2100, maybe 1900.

It's real hard to count them, but it was a huge number.

And they were having a major league effect because the other three predators were still killing them.

Like if humans would have said, we don't want to kill elk anymore, then it would have been fine.

But that wouldn't work.

And so we're trying to have enough elk out there for people as well as the other predators.

We had to do something with the wolves.

And so we started opening seasons and trapping seasons and whatever.

And they're so smart and they're so hard to get that you don't go out and just slaughter them.

I think now after it's been 10 years or so since we got them back, we still have like 1400.

And we would have had 150, probably it would have been closer to 500 by the time.

You can't just go out at 100, count 150 wolves and say you're getting it and you're getting it.

But it would have never gotten to 1400.

We would not have allowed that.

And that's the starting point where we are now.

Because the legislature didn't listen to the experts.

They listened to the cattleman that lied and killed the plan.

And then they called the bluff of the feds on whether or not they were going to give it to the nests first tribe.

And some of those that were weave one were not given.

They're not going to give it to the nests first tribe eight years later.

And that maybe I screwed up a little.

So anyway, that's the problem.

I wish those guys that really, really hate them would understand that that is the reason why.

And the numbers were 150.

We dumped ends like 35.

I'm saying we went with them.

We didn't do it.

We hadn't didn't have any choice.

And so when they got dumped in the Idaho, the Idaho management just inherited the problem.

Inherited the problem.

But we inherited it at 150 with money to maintain that number and to help on depredation claims.

You could have.

We could have.

This would have never happened.

This would have never happened.

But the cattle and started the ball rolling the Senate in Idaho, then killed it.

And once they killed it, we didn't have a plan.

And the.

And the nests first tribe got it.

And guess what they were it said on our management plan where it said Idaho to part an efficient game on their final copy.

It said nests first tribe.

Everywhere it said I'd efficient game.

Was it the same management plan?

Yeah.

So anyway, so I sure wish those guys they're throwing around a lot of numbers that they don't understand.

And I understand that a lot of people don't like wolves.

I mean, a little red riding hood.

You know, that is a lot of this problem because kids were raised hating wolves and being afraid of them.

And I really believe that's part of it.

And there's more elk now than there were before the wolves got put into the state of Idaho.

And anybody that wants to lie or deny that, I'm not saying they're lied, they're mistaken.

If anybody wants to find out and look at what the statistics are or see what the flights are showing or where the elk winner,

it's pretty easy to figure them out.

If you want to look at that, you can see that there are more elk now than before the wolves are introduced.

They're in different places.

The guy who went to Bear Valley and hunted there his whole life and the elk were out in the meadows

and he was just sneaked up there and blasted one.

They're not there anymore because they don't like wolves.

And so they're in different spots and they've gone from wide open meadows to they're in a lot much tougher terrain.

A lot of a lot of blow down and a lot of heavy trees.

And they're much harder to get so they're not where they were before.

So if you go hunting where they were before thinking, I'm going to go out and get my elk.

Well, you guess what? They're not there anymore.

But they're out there but you have to go to different spots to get them.

Man, that's a wild time.

So in essence, and again, this is something that I've seen kind of reproduce over and over different topics.

There's an anxiety that people have.

They express it to the legislators.

The legislators are considering a thousand different things at once and like,

OK, well, I guess that makes sense, right?

Yeah, the wolves are going to kill a bunch of cattle.

Which is like, if you were telling me that, I'd be like, yeah, that makes sense.

The wolves are going to eat the cattle.

Like, this is a bad idea.

But again, what's the alternative?

Right? The alternative is, OK, we just give it to this other group.

And now you guys don't have any control over it at all.

At all.

Right? And so I have seen this prom where it's like, OK, but what's the downstream effect in this?

And again, I wasn't and I know I was a kid when all this was going on.

But it is really interesting to see, you know, citizen led, citizen led legislature,

which God bless them.

And we don't have professional politicians.

But that also limits the amount of time that they can invest into understanding all of these,

they've got to understand temper.

They got to understand water.

They got to understand other natural resources.

They got to understand population zoning.

You're like, all of these things like, there's no way.

And most of these people from California that are here, which a good number of them are in the legislature,

never hunted and never fished.

And it's a very intense topic to learn.

And Idaho ones that have been around this are whole lives.

Like back 20 years ago, like 90% of all the homes in Idaho had a gun or a fishing pole in it.

And it's quite a bit lower than that now because the people are moving here.

Most of them aren't hunters and most of them aren't fishermen.

Now those people are in the legislature and they're expected to understand all this stuff.

Well, they got another 100 piece of legislation they're looking at.

And it's really difficult for them.

And so when they get a friend who's next door and he tells them this stuff,

a lot of times they'll just listen to it and they'll say,

well, you know those bureaucrats, they're not going to tell you the truth.

You don't want to listen to them when those bureaucrats have devoted their lives to wildlife.

And they would tell you the truth on that because when you work for fishing game,

it's not just a job. It's a lifestyle.

And it's really important to me that I could see things better than when I went in there

and see our wildlife flourishing in this state.

That makes my heart pitter-patter.

God bless.

And it breaks my heart when I see things that are really wrong or being evil happening.

Yeah. Let me ask you something.

That's the wolf story.

But you also oversaw the grizzly bear reintroduction.

Yes.

Okay. What happened with that?

You know, just like myself, wolves, when I was thinking about wolves getting introduced into Idaho,

well, they didn't exturpegate them because they were their friends.

They killed animals and they were trying to make a living as they'd moved into the wildernesses.

And so wolves were a problem for them.

But grizzly bears are a whole new ballgame.

And when the fed said we're going to recover grizzly bears,

and then we need to have a grizzly bear recovery plan,

just like we did for the wolves.

And then what we will do is we will start reintroducing wolves into some of these other wolves.

I got them on my brain. Grizzly bears.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And here's the thing.

You might have childhood fables about wolves,

right? Like we might have certain ideas about wolves.

You know, like you was beating the beast.

There are a bunch of wolves like chasing or all around.

Okay, fine.

Those are kid stories.

Grizzly bears?

That's not a kid story.

No.

Like I don't need a fable to know that's a grizzly bear.

Yeah.

Like that's bad news bears, man.

Well, back in South Eastern Montana and Eastern Wyoming,

Northeastern Wyoming and whatever,

there's a ton of grizzly bears out there.

And what you do now is if you knock down a grizzly bear,

they have learned from that shot that there's an animal dead

and they're going to get fed.

And you have somebody stand there with a gun ready to go

while you're dressing your elk.

And it happens every year that people get attacked

and the grizzly bear will take it away from them.

Or like, let's say you get half of your elk out

and the next morning you're going to go back there

to get the other half.

You sneak up on it with guns drawn.

And you better be careful because if there's a grizzly bear there,

they're going to, that's their elk.

And they're not going to give it to you without a fight.

And people are killed every year by them

and they're just a mean vicious beast.

But they're a wonderful animal too.

I mean, one of God's most precious things was a giant predator.

And they were put on this earth to keep the animals

and numbers in check and whatever.

But what do we have here now where the grizzly bear lives?

People.

That's the difference.

We have people.

And so it's a whole other deal to try to manage grizzly bears.

But here's a funny story.

The director in Wyoming.

They had some really bad grizzly bears

that were not afraid of people at all

and they were getting into trash cans and whatever else.

So they trapped them and brought them over to the border

of the Targary forest at Rexburg and dumped them out.

And it was a mom and two babies.

Well, within two days they're in backyards in Rexburg

eating apple trees, eating apples on the trees.

We don't want that.

And so what did we have to do?

We had to kill them.

Now, if you would have taken them,

instead of they were habituated to people,

which is a big deal for a grizzly bear.

If you can take them to the end of the tomb buck two out there

and dump them out,

there's a chance that they're going to have a chance to live.

But once they've been habituated to people

and to people food,

if they get back into people again, they're dead,

you have to kill them.

And that, if you love animals, all animals like I do,

that bothers me that we have to kill them.

But once they've learned that they can bluff you

out of your trash can or out of your elk or whatever else

or your apples.

Yeah, or your apples.

And if you have to stand there with a guy with a rifle

on point while you clean your elk,

it's a bad deal.

And those grizzly bears,

because of the conservation

and the good area that they're in now,

they're growing by huge numbers

and they're spreading out in huge numbers.

And so they're essentially,

they're essentially enough of them now

that we could have a hunting season.

But the problem with that is then,

we said the fed said,

yes, we can have a hunting season.

And we had one tag.

And so,

and we set out permit applications

and a guy that drew the tag,

you know, was going to get a grizzly bear in Idaho.

Well, politics.

Oh my gosh, the wolf,

the wolf and the grizzly bear lovers

are much more intense,

the further away you live from them.

You know, a guy is really,

really into wolf and grizzly bear recovery

if he's in New York City.

And that's a little bit different than Rexburg, Idaho.

And so there's something like a 95% approval rating

for introducing the wolves in Idaho.

And that wasn't,

and the closer you got to where wolves were going to live,

the lower that number went.

But it's just a fact of life on that.

Well, now we've got grizzly bears in a lot of spots,

but we also have political things

where people don't like them

but there's other people that like them intensely.

And so you've got these hid going here.

And we gave away a grizzly bear permit

and a federal judge stopped the hunt.

And a federal judge,

it's the same one that has stopped the hunts on wolves

when they first tried that the first three times.

Then same judge stopped it.

And so now you can't have a hunt

and you've got grizzly bear numbers increasing dramatically.

And sooner or later,

we're going to have to do something

because they're already killing people.

If it isn't unusual now to be hiking

in Wyoming or Eastern Montana

or even Island Park Idaho now

and be attacked by a grizzly bear,

there's enough of them now

that it's becoming a problem.

And what are you going to do with them?

The only thing you can do is put out a hunting season.

I mean, you can't trap them and take them back

or to another guy's trees in his backyard.

You can't do that.

And the problem that we have

is people see animals like that

and they feed them

or they don't have the types of trash cans

where a bear can get into it and get food.

So they know if they come down to these trash cans

laying out along by the subdivision,

they can knock those over

and get all kinds of food every week.

And so they get habituated to that.

Well, then here you go out at night

to put some stuff in your trash can

and there's a guy eating the stuff

out of the trash can.

It's not a good deal.

It's really sad.

That is.

That's the current situation.

When did the original reintroduction kick off?

Was it around the same time

that the wolves were coming back to?

I don't.

They really didn't reintroduce them

into our areas down here

as much as North Idaho.

Yeah, and I'm trying to think

forgive me for being an old geezer.

There were some areas in extreme northern Washington,

Idaho and Montana

and some in some in Wyoming

where they were going to reintroduce bears

and I can't remember just where we're going now.

It's been 25 years and whatever.

But the sentiment was it similar

to the reintroduction of wolves?

Oh, way stronger against it.

Yeah, way stronger against it.

So what was the big push then?

Like why did the federal government

want to reintroduce them?

The Endangered Species Act states

that if you have habitat

which will hold whatever the animal is

that was extirpated,

if the habitat is there,

they have to reintroduce them.

And they have to get them going again.

And it can be the snail daughter,

it could be a snail

or it could be whatever.

But it just happened to be

our areas around here

are perfect for wolves

and they're perfect for grizzly bears.

And so that's why they decided those areas

that we were going to bring grizzly bears

and wolves back there.

And then we were going to do the best we can

to help the public

and the farmers and ranchers

with taking care of the ones

that cause a problem.

Gosh, man.

So the ESA just said,

look, if you've got a pool

and that pool can, you know,

hold these awesome little

endangered species fish,

you've got to throw the fish

in that pool.

But bro, like it's in my backyard.

And my guy swimming that sometimes

is like, we don't care.

It's like small mouse pat

cut more bass fish.

That pat cut more bass fish

is going in your pool.

And then all of a sudden

you got the bass fish.

That might be stretching it

a little bit.

But it's actually you have

large wilderness areas.

Large wilderness areas.

Large wilderness areas.

Large wilderness areas.

Near places where people live.

They're like, yeah.

People live here.

And we'll help you

if you get bothered by these things.

But the bears can live out there.

So we're going to put them back there.

Yeah.

Damn, man.

But then there were supposed

to be hunting seasons.

That didn't happen to hold their

numbers down.

Just like the first couple

three years when we were getting

wolves like crazy.

One year we got a

federal judge to open a season.

And we had, we killed quite a few

wolves in Idaho, like a couple

hundred or so.

Maybe even up to 300.

Well, then the next year,

different federal judge

closed the season.

And it didn't get open again.

Well, this is a, this is a story

that I thought, oh my gosh.

Look how unlucky we are.

We didn't see a wolf in our

elk area when we were hunting.

The year they were closed again.

But the day, the year they were

open, we didn't see one.

Excuse me.

But then the next year when they

were closed again, we were riding

up the trail to get up to our

elk hunting area.

And there was just a beautiful

adult male wolf.

He walked up the trail for over a

mile and never got more than 50

to 75 yards from us.

And just stopped when he stopped

and rest of horses.

He'd stop and look at again

whatever.

And the season was closed again.

And then after that, that group

of wolves got into real trouble

with livestock.

And the feds took a helicopter

up there and went and killed a

wolf, the whole pack.

So it killed them all.

And then for the next 10 years,

we never saw another wolf in there.

They killed them out of that area

and they hadn't recovered back

into the area.

And the elk just came back

in waves.

So, I mean, they are a problem.

But that was we had lots of them

then.

You can't have that many, that many

on top of all the other predators.

Was that up near the

sawtooth?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the east fork, the east fork

is a salmon river.

So bottom line is both of these

species were reintroduced.

Yeah.

There was little rhyme or reason

aside from a national push to

obviously repopulate endangered

species.

The impact on hunting and fishing

the impact on all of these other

things. They're like, listen,

it doesn't.

This is a broader national, you

know, country-wide motivation.

We don't really care where it lands.

But if Wyoming can tolerate them,

they're going to get them.

If Texas and tolerate them,

they're going to get them.

If Jersey can tolerate them,

they're going to get them.

But it just happened to be that,

like, hey man, Idaho's got

some cool places for this.

Here we go.

For predators.

And that's the key.

For predators.

You know, nobody likes a predator.

Yeah.

I mean, if it was a, we're going to,

we're going to reintroduce

koala bears or something like that.

There wouldn't be much of an impact.

And people wouldn't be

squawked.

But when you have things that

kill things, that kill things

that you want to kill.

And, or they kill people,

then that you get a lot more

of a pressure on it.

They kill people.

And you don't want to be one of

those peoples.

Gosh, man, that's rough.

You and our chat about a month or two ago

about game seasons, right?

Specifically with waterfowl.

And I know we're kind of bouncing around

a bunch of ideas.

Could you explain the situation

that Idaho has specifically with?

I think it was the,

what kind of waterfowl is it?

It was snow geese?

Yeah.

Yeah.

We're going to Oregon

to go hunt these things.

And we're like,

why can't Idaho get it together?

Well, snow geese and white fronted geese.

Okay.

There it is.

And the snow geese are,

what is the problem with them

is that they're numerous enough

that they fly all the way to the,

to the barren grounds in the far north.

And so you've got this water there

and a lot of marshes

and whatever.

Well, they grasses and herbs.

And so there are so many of them now

that they're eating themselves

out of house and home.

And so the feds said

those two species were,

there were way too many.

And so we'd never had

a spring season before

until the feds said

they're eating themselves

out of house and home.

We got to kill a few.

And this,

when you say the barren north,

that's literally like they go into Canada.

Oh, way up the very end of Canada.

Okay, great.

So in the spring,

they go way up.

They hang out up there.

It's nice and cool summertime.

And then they come back down.

And even though,

because I have a,

Brian Brooks is a friend of mine

and he's on the American

bird conservancy,

you know, the organization.

And he talks about these

multi-country agreements.

It's like,

you have waterfowl.

They don't care if they're

in Canada to the US,

because they don't care

at all where they're going.

No.

They're just going wherever

they want to be.

So the feds looked at this

and said,

hey, look, the environment

in northern Canada is such

that these populations

are getting out of control.

So when they're here,

and we,

because they can't do anything

about how Canada manages them.

No.

So when the snow geese

are down in the United

States, we got to open

up another season.

Yeah, on that season,

they don't come down here

during the regular waterfowl

seasons for ducks

and Canada geese.

And things like that.

The snow geese aren't

here and the whitefronts

aren't here.

They wait and come down

later.

So by the time our hunting

seasons were either over

or very close to being

over, was the first time

you would see any,

any whitefronted geese

or any snow geese.

So, but they are coming

back, like the first

of February,

you start seeing them.

Well, our season is

closed in the 31st

of January.

So you start seeing a few

right after that.

And then the peak

of these geese

that are coming clear from

the wilderness up there

in Timbuktu is March 15th.

March 15th is the key

for when they're here

and they're,

they're, they're,

they're mass.

Okay.

Now the fed said,

we've got to kill them

and we've got to kill a lot

of them.

And I'd read somewhere

where they thought they

were hoping they were

going to get two million

on their way back north

across the whole country.

Oh, my God.

Let's say from Louisiana

all the way to California.

So that's a lot.

But there's,

there's Bukhu

millions of them coming up

here.

And so they're like,

guys, get ready.

Get the ammo.

Like, let's go.

We need several million

of them.

Well, except,

here's the problem.

The fed said,

we got to kill them.

But then they put

the seasons out there

when they're not here.

And so,

if you go figure,

the,

the white fronted geese,

which is the best eating

of all the,

all the waterfowl,

they're absolutely delicious.

My wife even took three,

three helping.

She said, one,

one, one,

we put it on the trigger.

And so white fronted geese,

and they're not near

numerous as snow geese,

but there are enough

of a problem that they

wanted to kill each other.

And so our season opens

on February 10th,

and then our season closes,

no, our season opens in January,

and it closes on February 10th.

And they're not even here yet.

And so they're,

the peak of their migration

is March 10th.

So they're not even here yet

when our season closes.

But then in Oregon,

they have the white front

and the snow geese season stays open,

and they're,

you can shoot them all

the way up to March 10th.

And the migration,

the group,

the number one numbers

of how they're going to be here,

is not here until

after they closed it.

So it makes no sense, really,

if you want to kill them,

why not have the seasons

when they're here?

I've never,

and you can't get anybody

to give you,

I've tried and tried and tried

to get somebody to give you

an answer why we can't get this,

if you're going to want to kill them,

why not have the season open

when they're here?

That kind of makes sense, doesn't it?

I mean, a little bit.

Yeah, it would be like,

if you want to,

they'll hunt elk in the wilderness,

so you wouldn't put the season in June.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, so that's the same thing.

I mean, it just is,

it's silly.

I was in,

I went to Bruno,

Bruno Dunes,

and it was awesome.

But I saw,

I'm trying to pull the shot of it,

but it was this gigantic collection of them,

all sitting on the water.

And kind of what you were saying,

I think it was mid-February,

like they were all coming through at that time,

but as you're pointing out,

like that would have been the time

when you couldn't get after them.

Yeah, that's,

and so like,

Oregon,

where they allow you to hunt whitefronts

all the way through the end of the season

for snow geese,

you can't do that,

you can't do that,

Idaho,

because we have made a decision

that the feds say,

oh, look at this.

Oh, yeah.

It's crazy.

It's the entire,

it's crazy.

It's crazy.

Like the entire water.

It's like,

they're all,

like it was deafening.

You couldn't hear,

you couldn't hear anything.

Yeah, there are spots where we hunt out here at Caldwell

that you can take your,

your plug out of your gun,

and so you can shoot as many shells

as your shotgun will hold.

And you've got all these snow geese coming back through.

And if you sneak up on them,

like on a pond or whatever,

if you shot into it,

you might get 20.

And so,

and I mean,

so it's really a true sports

that was not going to sneak up on a pond at 220 geese,

but they're fun to hunt,

and they're really fun to decoy in.

But what I can't understand is,

Oregon has,

they have their white front,

and there's snow geese

and open at the same time,

and they go to Mars tent.

Idaho, we only go to February tent on white fronts.

Now, the reason behind that

is the department has made it a choice,

because the feds say,

if you're going to use an electronic call

to instead of blowing on a mouth call,

if you're going to use an electronic call,

that's way louder and blows way better than we do,

then you can't have white front at season open.

Now, figure that out.

What does it matter?

But so anyway,

we close white front

a month earlier than Oregon,

just across the border,

because the people that are hunting these

want to use an electronic call.

You can't have,

you can't use an electronic call

if white front of geese are open.

So we close the season before,

six weeks before they're here,

because we have chosen to do that

with allowing these guys,

and there's quite an industry now

on hunting snow geese with an outfitter.

There's a bigger industry in it now,

and it costs about $400 a day per person,

and they can call them in,

and they're, you know,

at a place I hunt right out on the voice of River,

there's probably between 50 and 100,000 snow

geese there,

and if you wanted to do it with an electronic call

and a whole bunch of decoys,

you could get,

you can sell at least $400 a person to hunt them,

but you can't have the electronic call

if white front's open.

So we close white front,

so they can electronic call them,

and these guys make a ton of money,

because there's enough snow geese here

that allows electronic calls,

and usually you'll put out a thousand decoys,

500 to a thousand decoys,

and they'll just come fogging right in

and let them have it.

That's a lot of decoys.

Oh, yeah, picking them up after you're done.

I was gonna say,

I mean, they must not just have truck falls

of those things.

The guys that I hunt with

that really know how to do this,

they have great big trailers,

and they'll have a thousand snow geese decoys in there,

and then during the season

for Canadian geese,

they'll have two or three hundred Canadian goose decoys,

and they'll fill their shed with the others,

and then when I go to Canada with these guys,

you have a whole bunch,

like several hundred Canadian goose decoys,

then you'll have several hundred snow geese

and several hundred white front goose decoys,

and so you'll have probably a thousand decoys there,

and just depending on how many you want to put out that day,

because if it's three people or four people,

you could exhaust yourself,

putting them out and getting them back in again,

but we would,

we would put out a bunch of decoys,

usually some of each,

and we would harvest 25 to 75 to 100 in a good day,

because they've come just out of the wilderness up there.

Nobody's been shooting at them,

and they have a whole bunch of baby ones

that aren't real smart,

and look out.

Oh my gosh.

Man, that's wild.

And you know what's interesting?

There's a conversation around technology right now,

and it's almost like nobody's ever confronted the concept of technology before.

And again, it's like long-range rifles,

and a live feed trail cams.

This is the topic to you right now,

and the legislature and fishing game and everything.

There's precedence for curbing duration of seasons

or technology that can be used during certain seasons.

This is existed forever.

Yeah, this is the technology that people continue to invent,

the way they're going,

and there's a lot of archers that aren't really happy right now,

because the department put,

if you have your cameras out there

that people put out there,

or just live feed trail cams and stuff.

You have to, you can't have the ones

that will send the call back to your cell phone.

You have to check it every day while you're out there,

and whoo.

Yeah.

They're upset.

Well, then drones.

That's a big thing now.

People don't have to walk around and go through all the brush.

They send the drone out there.

There's nobody out there.

Let's go to the next draw.

People are just inventive of a way to kill the animals.

You can't make it that easy

or your season's only going to be one day.

Yeah, it is an interesting thing.

I've had a lot of people on to talk about the different technologies

available and their perspectives on it.

You know what the best thing is?

Whenever you talk to somebody about one of live feed trail cams,

the people I've spoken with get rid of the man,

they're like, it doesn't help.

This is a ridiculous restriction.

It doesn't help.

And the answer is always, then why do you want it?

I don't understand.

Like, this, that chair right there doesn't help me at all

with these podcasts.

If you want to get rid of that chair, I don't care.

I'm not going to argue with it because it doesn't help me.

But if you, if you were like, I'm going to get rid of this

and I'm like, no, don't get rid of that.

It's like, well, does it help?

He's like, no, it doesn't help me.

Okay.

Well, I'll get rid of it.

No, don't get rid of it.

That doesn't make sense.

Yeah.

There are a lot of times people have invented these different ways

to overcome the natural ability of the deer and elk

to get away from them and so on.

And you have to give somewhere because the number of people

that have applied for a permit to hunt elk and Idaho

since COVID, there's 20,000 more that apply every year

than it was before.

20,000 more people want to elk hunt than before COVID.

And what are you going to do with 20,000 more people?

You can't, because the seasons, you either have to close the season

or you have to make it more difficult to get them.

Because if you'd have it easy and you got all these different technologies,

then you can't do it.

You're going to wipe out your elk herds or your deer herds or bears or whatever it is.

Yeah, whatever it is.

Yeah.

I keep coming back to them like, look, man, however much it costs Idahoans, leave it.

Just quadruple the cost for out of state people.

That's what I keep coming back to.

But there are very clear reasons why you wouldn't want to do that.

Specifically, one, if you go into a recession,

you're going to have a really hard time attracting people into the state to engage in this.

And two, if, say, say you're like, hey, look, we'll make the same amount of money.

We're going to quadruple the cost for out of state people

and we're going to a one-fourth of the number of people coming to the state.

Okay, that sounds fine.

It's not fine for the guides and outfitters.

No, right? Like you start hearing them.

They're businesses over with.

Right.

They need the bodies coming into Idaho.

There's no way to get around that.

And if you make it more difficult for out of state people to come in here,

this gigantic industry of outfitters and guides is going to start contracting.

It's gone.

Yeah.

The other thing is, we've made it very expensive.

And all the states have very, very expensive for non-residents.

But the people that are really want to hunt and have the money to do it,

be it they saved money, like me for my turkey.

Yeah.

You save enough money to do that one year or whatever,

or you have a trust fund and you can hunt anywhere you want to,

as many times as you want to, but whatever, that's a lot more expensive.

Now, if those tags weren't a lot more expensive,

then you're going to have to raise the price of resident tags.

And oh my gosh, you can't believe the deal on that.

If you try to raise resident tags, they'll be on their legislators

like you can't believe.

I got to tell you a funny story.

You have the best story.

Back in the old days, when we were going to go from where a store

rode out a handwritten tag or license to when we were going to go to computers on that.

Well, the price of a senior resident,

that's a geezer who was I think 75 or above,

the price of the senior resident was zero.

Okay, but then when we went to the computerized system,

you had to pay the store or they're not going to carry the license in tags.

And so the store was charging a buck 50.

That's what we agreed on for all the stores in Idaho that wanted to sell them.

When you bring it, when they want to buy something,

they pay a buck 50 and that goes to the store.

Sure.

Well, we had a three day hearing and it was a blood bath

about the fact that now the free license was going to cost a buck 50.

And we had a gentleman come over from Emmett that came over three days in a row

and testified every time on a different part of this thing.

Because if he has to pay a buck 50, he's not going to be able to go hunting.

It's going to break a little bankrupt.

I mean, he can't go hunting.

This was at the Capitol.

How much in gas did he spend each time?

Oh my gosh, you're going to destitute me if I have to pay a buck 50 to get my tag.

Oh my gosh.

So there isn't a whole lot of common sense involved.

And when people get into that, but if you try to,

what we did is everybody wanted to keep the controlled hunt permits,

which are usually the areas that had a lot of animals,

but they had easier habitat and you could wipe them out if you didn't control the numbers of people.

Well, in those type of areas, there was usually where you could get a big buck or a big elk.

And we kept hearing from people that we don't want to have to increase the price of those tags,

because all we want is a dofong cow calf because we need to meet.

We're poor and we need to meet.

And I said, okay.

So I wrote legislation that said on a cow calf doe fawn,

the price of applying for a controlled hunt permit,

when a controlled hunt means a controlled number of people can go out there.

The price of that would be five bucks.

But if you wanted to go into areas that had superstar deluxe or huge bulls and huge bucks,

it would be 25 bucks for an application.

Oh my gosh, they went nuts because, well, we want cheaper ones,

but we want to be able to shoot a big one too.

Oh, I got beat to death.

I got flogged over that.

Is it really just that people want, they just want what they want.

They want no obstruction to it.

Yeah, and they don't want to spend their money,

but they don't understand that the gasoline costs a little bit more

and health insurance for employees and blah, blah, blah, blah.

And go buy a fish truck and see what it was 25 years ago and what it is now.

And then fish and game has hundreds of vehicles for all the different things that they do.

Those things cost a lot of money.

So you can't have the same amount of money.

And we get really beat up when we try to raise the license fees for residents.

Really beat up.

I mean, I've come home feeling like I've been tarred and feathered after a few of those hearings.

But they always say, get the non-resident guy, give it to him.

But then the newest thing is we have to lower the number of people at our non-residents.

So because they might get a deer elk that we want.

And so if you lower the numbers of them, your money goes down and where else you're going to go for it then.

And then the private economy.

The private economy of the hundreds of vehicles.

Motels.

Motels, food.

Gas beer.

Gas beer.

You name it.

And the guy that cuts up the animal.

And the taxidermist.

I mean, it goes on and on and on and on and on and on.

But nobody likes to pay more money.

I mean, I don't like to pay $4 for gas like we're doing now.

But it was the lowest I ever got gas was $0.18.

And so it's come a long way.

$0.18.

It was $0.89.

What it was when I was buying it when I was in college.

It was $0.89.

And then it went to $0.50 in my wife and we were whining.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah, dude.

I remember when I was at the end of high school.

It was the late 90s.

There was this crummy gas station over here in the mall, right?

And it only had two pumps in it.

But it was the cheapest gas.

Oh yeah.

The entire county was like 95 cents or something.

And I'm sure it was terrible gas.

Like people were like, oh, you could drink that.

It's totally fine.

Like it's pretty much water.

But man, we would feel like I'd fill up the Honda cord on that bad boy.

Heck yeah.

Yeah.

I worked it in nap at the first big mall was called Carter Mall.

And there was a gas station right on the side of it.

And I worked in the mall at a drugstore there.

And so when I'd run out of gas, I'd make certain that I'd be close to those stations.

It was $18.9.

Gosh, man.

That's great.

Pat, listen, we've talked about a bunch of things.

Grizzlies, bears, or excuse me, wolves, waterfowl.

I don't want to keep you all day.

Is there, you got any good stories that you want to share?

You got to, you know, it's really funny because my friends that I take hunting,

they'll say something, it'll trigger one.

And then I'll talk about the darkness thing that has happened or what we saw.

Or one of the best ones was when we had fessence, we had lots of fessence.

And so on the opening day of fessence season, which is a Saturday,

there was lots of fessence out there.

When every word, every little small town in Idaho had a fessant breakfast.

You know, I know you do, Sess Simpson.

Oh, yeah.

He said he used to fessant hunt right where we set right now.

Yeah.

Because his dad worked on a dry creek road as, you know, working on the road crew

and his dad and he, you know, got ahold of the guy who went to the land here

and they're like, they're like, yeah, man, go for it.

Yeah.

If your people are familiar with Boise, Cloverdale and Fairview,

that that intersections where I got my first fessant, Cloverdale and Fairview,

that's not good hunting career rhetoric now.

Not so much.

Not so much.

So anyway, we would go out and check Fisherman Hunters like Madden.

So here's a funny story.

I'm in a plane closed vehicle and, but I have my uniform on.

And I'm driving down this road and there's five guys, one taken pictures

and four guys standing there in the driveway.

Just a little ways off of the road with way too many fessants.

Way too many fessants.

And so I just pulled in the driveway and the guy didn't hear me pull in.

I got out and started walking towards him.

And these guys that have got all the fessants are freaking out.

Because here's this guy coming towards him in a uniform.

And the guy holding the pictures going, quit moving around.

Hold still.

So I walked up to him and he turned and went,

oh, SH.

And so I said, here's what I'll do.

Why don't I get the picture?

And all you guys get over there together.

I'll take the picture for you.

And then we'll talk about it.

Did you take the picture?

Yeah.

I took a picture for him.

So they had all five of them.

And they had like, oh, at least it doesn't over the limit.

So it was so funny watching them.

They're wiggling around there and he's going, hold still.

I need to get the picture.

God bless it, man.

Like what a wild time.

It's, uh, men.

Yeah, here's one more and then I'll shut up.

So what we would do after the fessence season was over.

I mean, today, at Dark, you're done.

Sure.

So then I would roar down to Orianna.

It's a little town in the Yhees where several roads come together

and come down by an old Catholic church there.

And then if they, all those roads come together

and then they hit the main highway and head into it,

whatever town they're going to.

Well, so we would wait usually about 11 o'clock

because when you start getting the illegals,

and I'd stay till three.

And you just about know every other rig coming out after 11 o'clock

had illegal deer in it.

And I got my next door neighbor one time there.

I'm going, what are you doing?

They had four deer with no tags on them coming out about two in the morning.

And it was my next door neighbor.

No.

So that was it.

What'd you do?

I rolled a ticket.

Oh, my God.

But then the funniest one was these guys said,

no, we didn't get a thing, but we just got a late start

getting out of there.

So we're just coming out about two in the morning.

And I said, well, I'm curious.

I'd like to just have a look in the back of your rig.

I could see deer here and a little bit of blood on the tailgate.

And I said, I had just curious about it.

What do you got back here?

And he says, well, we got some kids that are asleep back there.

And so underneath the tarp, there are some kids of sleep

underneath these sleeping bags.

And so I thought that something's fishy here.

So I crawled in there and I went like that on the sleeping bags.

And it just didn't feel like feet.

And it was one of them had a deer under this sleeping bag.

And they had a deer under that sleeping bag.

And the kids are actually, oh, what are you doing?

All we're just waking up.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah, you get those a lot of times.

You just die laughing about some of the stuff people would do.

God bless it, man.

Well, listen, Pat, I always always appreciate it.

Do you remember that time a couple of years ago when you took me

geese hunting?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I don't.

You don't?

No, I never took.

No, it was fishing.

It was fishing.

And you were the dirt bag.

You stood me up.

And you were like, OK, here's the thing.

You were like, we'll go fishing on such and such a day.

And I was like, yeah, that sounds like a great idea.

And then like the night before, I'm like, OK, great.

So I'll meet you at like six or seven.

You're like, no, we have to meet at 3 a.m.

It's four hours to the honey hole.

And then four hours back home.

And I'm like, Pat, I got like all these interviews in the afternoon.

You're like, blah.

We'll schedule it for another.

And I was like, what?

I was, listen, I know now.

I get it now.

I went to, I actually went still had fishing up in Riggins.

And that time, I was like, OK, I'm up at four.

Got it, drive all the way up to Riggins.

And it wasn't, you know, it was just this guy Roy Aiken,

who's one of the councilmen up there, really great guy.

And he's like, I'm a guy.

And he's like, but I'll just take you, you know, no money or anything.

Like, let me just, just two guys, you know, floating down the river.

And I was like, great, man, awesome.

It was the best time ever.

But I was like, oh my gosh, this is what Pat was talking about.

Did you catch any fish?

I did.

I got to steal it.

I was like, hell yeah, man.

But again, like I didn't realize.

So now I get it.

It's like, OK, we got to be up at three.

Get as hot a coffee as you can.

You're going to freeze your butt.

It was 20 degrees on the water.

I was like, I'm going to die out here right now.

I got no idea.

So I get it now.

Listen, you met me at a time when I knew very little about Idaho.

And I'm not saying I know a lot now, but I know a lot more than I did.

And I understand the life and the journey and everything much,

much, much more clearly.

So listen to me.

Next time you say, let's go fishing, I'm there.

I'll go to sleep at five o'clock tonight before I don't even care.

It doesn't even matter.

But I'm all in for the party.

I just, I thought I was like, we'll drive 45 minutes.

Like, be back by lunch.

You're like, no, man, we're gone all day.

Yeah.

You know what you got to tell your wife is that you have to be responsible for all these

kids I spawned because I got to go fishing hunting.

So you can't have four kids waiting at the door for you as you're leaving to go hunting.

Well, the good news is now because I'm finally a professional podcaster.

I'm like, honey, it's the work.

I gotta, I gotta go out and take a bunch of pictures.

I gotta do a, I'll do, well, the next podcast we'll do.

We'll do it in the boat in the boat while we're hanging out there drinking our coffee

or whatever we're drinking.

And I'll be like, honey, I gotta get the content.

I gotta just like, this is the way it goes.

And she'll be like, fine, I'm in.

I'm all in, man.

Like, we'll make, here's the other thing.

Burke got a hold of me and he's like, hey, do you want to go chuck her hunting?

I'm like, yeah, but that'd be great.

The problem is he couldn't, like, during the legislative session, I'm doing, you know, like, six, seven, eight interviews a day.

I can't reschedule on all the legislators.

I couldn't get Burke to schedule more than like a day.

And he's like, well, I might go on Friday.

I might not have like, Burke, I really need to know.

How about Saturday?

He's like, I'm busy on Saturdays.

Oh, yeah, he's a, yeah, he's a, and he's really, really ended this.

He'll park and he'll walk for five hours and go around out there now.

I, if I haven't gotten anything in three hours, the, the seat and the truck is looking pretty good to me.

Yeah, man.

So listen, when, the next time you start going out, you let me know I'm there, baby.

I will schedule the whole day and we'll, we'll make this happen.

I'll even drive so you can fall asleep next to me.

It's fine.

Here's the deal.

Next week, there's a big croppy fishing tournament at strike reservoir this weekend.

And so we're going to find out where they're biting and what they're biting on.

And then next week, we're going to go try to catch a, try to catch a, a croppy.

And then it's only about 20 minutes over to where you can catch a sturgeon.

Have you ever caught a fish that weighs 300 pounds?

I haven't, but I did go to the Schwartz sturgeon.

Yeah.

I was surprised that you recommended that was incredible.

Like a great time.

You don't, let's, okay.

Okay.

You picked the day.

This, this is, I'm going to I.S.U. next week.

Oh, listen to this.

Listen, listen to me.

I, and a week after I'm not super important.

I'm just saying I need more than like four days notice because it just helped me out here.

You, you picked the next day.

Okay, after that week, because you should, I can't be standing.

No, no, no, no, listen, listen, I'm just saying during the legislative,

I'm just saying during the legislative session, the week is crazy.

I, but like after the legislative session, I'm there, man.

I'm there.

And I'm also doing a lot of showcasing.

This is what we can, this is what we can do.

All right, Pat.

I'm doing, I'm helping the department of parks and rec showcase the different parks.

Right?

Because like bottom line is people like me that move here.

We don't know about the, like we don't know about Hagerman.

Right?

And the problem is the next generation of Idahoans, especially spawned from terrible people like me

that move here and ruined your beautiful state.

We won't be participating in the state parks the same way we would have, you know, back, like back in my former state,

I knew where I grew up going camping and fishing and whatever, right?

The point is I'm going to be helping them.

So let's do this.

Let's marry these two things.

Let's start going to state parks or places that are near state parks.

I'll take a bunch of shots, talk to a bunch of people to state park, and then we'll jump on the water

and go fishing or hunting, whatever you want to do.

There's a plan.

I'm pretty easy.

Thank you for, come on.

I'm not, I'm not tired.

I'm retired.

God, God bless you.

Listen to me.

I, I'm telling you right now, we're going to make this happen.

I'm all in.

I understand what needs to be invested.

I'm so there.

You don't.

And I'm going to get back on this equipment.

Oh, you were.

Dude, that's fine.

That's fine.

I just, I'm telling you right now, I'm committed.

I'm committed.

I'm all in.

I appreciate you, Pat.

You just, you warm my heart every time we hang out.

I'm excited to do this this year with you.

God bless it.

Thank you for coming on.

And we'll do it again after we go fishing and hunting.

Okay, then we'll talk about how you did.

How I did.

God bless it.

Thanks for coming on.

We'll do it again.