Woman's Hour, Liza Tarbuck and Desert Island Discs

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BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcasts.

I'm Andrea Catherwood and welcome to Feedback.

Where the focus is on broadcasting legends,

people who've made a mark on the radio landscape,

but more importantly, on listeners.

When many of you have paid tribute to former Radio 4 presenter,

Jenny Murray, who died last week.

And I'll be talking to Radio Times critic Simon O'Hagan

about the decision of Radio 2's much loved Lisa Tarbuck

to step back from the program she presented for 14 years.

And almost certainly a legend in the making.

A nomination for Feedback's interview of the year,

Oscar award-winning Jesse Buckley on Desert Island discs.

There's also controversy with many listeners questioning

woman's hours' choice of guests for a discussion

on the Manusphere last week.

We've tried to get some answers.

First, the sad news came last Friday that journalist and presenter of woman's hour

for over 30 years, Jenny Murray had died at the age of 75.

Jenny joined the BBC in 1973 and worked away up to presenting newsnight and today,

but it was on woman's hour in 1987 that she find her broadcasting home.

And she stayed there until she stepped down in 2020.

For many listeners to Radio 4 throughout those three decades,

she was a constant companion,

exacting, intelligent and never afraid of asking a probing question.

Hello, my name is Jackie. I'm from South Gloucestershire.

Jenny Murray was such a great lady.

I loved listening to her woman's hour for many years.

Jenny was so informative, honest and always kind in her interview technique.

A skillful journalist, her written articles and newspapers were always so informative

and interesting to read on all subjects.

She would be sadly missed, a lovely lady who will always be remembered,

RIP Jenny.

Steven, my wife Linda who died 10 months ago,

listened to woman's hour with Jenny Murray every day and loved her program.

I know she would have been very sad about her passing.

As usual in this country, we have to talk about class.

We were both admirers of people from working class backgrounds

who have become great achievers, as Jenny Murray was.

Jane here from Windsor.

I'm so very sad to hear the news about Jenny Murray.

She was a legend.

She kept me company, kept me informed,

and challenged me during my maternity leave and beyond.

I loved the way her interviewing style taught me how a woman could use her warmth

to shape a conversation and still give a voice to the unspoken issues.

Tolly Marrington from nowzel.

I had to leave a message when I heard the sad news of Jenny Murray having passed away.

I hadn't realized how much I'd missed hearing her voice and what a part of my life

had voice indeed had been. She was like my radio mum in the background.

I grew up without a tele, but instead with Radio 4.

My mum listened to woman's hour and then I did.

What really came across with Jenny Murray was a fierce pride for women,

and her courage. She was a great broadcaster and her belief in standing up for women and girls

and her integrity to a feminist principle shone through. She was fierce and courageous,

and that's something that is becoming rarer and rarer to find sadly in broadcasting.

Listeners flooded social media as well as the feedback inbox with memories and praise.

Jenny Murray informed and changed so many women's lives and proved so many women's

outlook and expectations. Her journalism was pissed, generous and brilliant, and yes,

wise. She related on every level. The care and attention with which she interviewed woman,

nor the sheer joy with which she interviewed Maddie prior, because she loved her.

There was once several women's hour where they brought butchmakers from about five

traditions, ethnic backgrounds and religions together. It was extraordinary,

completely unforgettable. So honest about breast cancer. She helped to de-mystify a

horrid disease for so many, including me. Now before I say goodbye for the holidays,

there's something I need to say about me. I shouldn't be around for a while in the new year,

because I've just been diagnosed with breast cancer. I'll be having treatment in the coming weeks,

the prognosis, by the way, is excellent, and I plan to be back as soon as I can.

Loved her direct style when writing about balancing home life with professional life, too.

Naturally, there have been plenty of tributes to Jenny on Radio 4. Perhaps the most fitting,

on Sunday Morning's Broadcasting House was a clip from her own favourite interview with Joan Biaz.

She was charming. She was funny. And my absolute favourite song of hers is Diamonds and Rust,

which looks back on her long affair with Bob Dylan. And I told her that was my favourite.

She sat here in this studio with her guitar, and for my benefit, she actually sang

Down in the Rust, and I cried to myself. Nobody would have known, but I was sobbing inside,

because she was so wonderful.

Now a woman's hour has always dealt with controversial issues of the day,

which have evolved over the decades, as public understanding of women's issues and rights

has developed. A piece broadcast last week on the programme,

discussed the topic of the so-called Manusphere. That's the online world of social media

accounts and websites that promotes masculinity alongside misogynistic language and behaviour.

The item was inspired by the recent Netflix series presented by Louis Theroux.

Presenter Nula McGavorn interviewed two contributors for their thoughts on the Manusphere.

Professor Sarah Hawkes, from the Gender Equality Think Tank, Global 5050,

and Professor Raywin Connell, an Australian academic who's been influential in the study of

masculinity. Connell is a transgender woman, and at one point in the interview was asked

about her personal experience of misogyny by Nula.

You have Raywin studied masculinity for over three decades, as a trans woman,

born a biological male, and wondering, have you noticed any differences in your experiences

of misogyny on how you were treated before or after transitioning?

I think that's unquestionable and unusual for trans women.

They discover some realities that other women have long experience.

Anything that you'd like to point to?

Her husband in the street, suspicion,

the general atmosphere of being marginalized, that kind of thing is familiar enough.

With this moment in particular, and the choice of Connell for the discussion in general,

launched much discussion online and many messages to feedback.

Hello feedback, my name is Shivalyn Cochlan, and I live in West London.

I'm a regular listener to woman's air, and I'm a summer puzzle to hear in

interview on St Patrick's Day with Raywin Connell, a trans woman on the subject of misogyny,

surely there are plenty of suitable female candidates with relevant expertise and knowledge

here in the UK. I would therefore appreciate you getting some feedback from those involved

in this programme, i.e. the editor, the producer, the research team, and the presenter on the

following. I would like to understand the thinking of the research team, the producer,

and the editor as to why they selected Raywin as a possible interviewer for this item.

I would also like to understand the thinking of all involved in the show's preparation meeting,

including presenter Nulema Govern, when they discussed this item, why it was collectively

thought appropriate and then agreed to have a trans woman, i.e. a biological man,

speak on an item on misogyny, which is an experience specific to women.

I would particularly like to know if another woman, i.e. a biological woman, alongside the

other interviewee Professor Sarah Hawkes, was considered for this interview as well,

and if so, why was this woman not interviewed?

Hello, my name is Laurie. I wanted to express my dissatisfaction with your feature on misogyny,

where you chose to seek the experiences of a person who spent most of their life as a man.

I find this mind-boggling. I don't doubt your selected person has experienced some unwanted

behaviors and attitudes, but this would be transphobia, surely. Are you conflating the two?

Would you interview a NATO woman when seeking experiences of transphobia, or a heteroperson when

seeking experiences of homophobia? And this from a listener who wanted to remain anonymous.

I was disappointed to hear that the guest woman's hour had invited on to discuss toxic masculinity

on the 17th of March was male. This gives the impression that women's hour only respect opinions

about toxic masculinity if they come from men, especially given the deafening silence over key

women's issues, such as the right to single sex spaces, confirmed by the Supreme Court nearly a

year ago, and the right to believe that there are only two sexes and that it is impossible to change

sex, a reality and belief that impacts women significantly. Well, I really wanted to put your

questions to someone from the woman's hour team, but we were told there was no one available

and given this statement. Regarding access to single sex spaces,

woman's hour has covered this issue extensively, including a two-week series of interviews on the

Supreme Court ruling on the Equality Act in 2025, exploring the implications of this judgment for

organisations, businesses and individuals. And on the decision to interview Raywin Connell on

the topic of the Manusphere, the statement read Raywin Connell, Professor Amarita at the University

of Sydney, was invited to contribute to the item on March 17th on misogyny, on the basis of her

academic work as a renowned sociologist studying the social theory of masculinity. Professor Connell

shared her academic expertise in this discussion, exploring themes raised by the Louis Theroux

documentary inside the Manusphere, also acknowledging her personal experience as a trans woman.

Woman's Hour regularly covers the topic of misogyny and includes a range of voices and perspectives.

Professor Sarah Hawkes from the Gender Equality Think Tank, Global 5050, also contributed to

the discussion. Well, if you'd like to join in the conversation about anything you've heard on

any BBC radio station or podcast or anything on BBC Signs, please do get in touch.

Sending a voice note or a text on WhatsApp is easy, but please include your name if you'd like

me to use it. The number is 03, triple 3, triple 4, 5, double 4. You can ring that number and leave

a voice message. The number again, it's 03, triple 3, triple 4, 5, double 4. On X and Instagram, it's

at BBC R4 Feedback, and you can also send an email to feedback at BBC.co.uk. Those details are

repeated again at the end of the programme. And please do go to BBC Signs where you can search for

feedback, click on the link and subscribe, and then you can get every episode in your feed and

listen whenever you like. The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people, so when you want

to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over one

billion professionals, including 130 million decision makers, and that's where it stands apart from

other ad buys. You can target your buyers by job title industry, company, role, seniority, skills,

company revenue, so you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience. It's why LinkedIn ads

generates the highest B2B return on ad spend of major ad networks. Spend $250 on your first

campaign on LinkedIn ads and get $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com slash

broadcast. That's LinkedIn.com slash broadcast. Terms and conditions apply.

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What are you doing there? Gosh, thank you for being here.

Where's the time gone? Thank you for being here and to the team of liquid gold.

Currently at HQ, we've got Katherine Cracknell. Thank you, Katherine.

Well, loyal listeners of Radio 2 on a Saturday evening of which there are many

noticed that long-term presenter Liza Tarvat could be absent from her usual slot for a while now.

And then came the news she was standing down after 14 years.

She released a statement on Instagram saying together we made two hours of radio feel like a

private members club. That's the stuff of dreams. Thousands of people enjoying each other's

company like great friends. Imagine what else we could do. Well, that announcement triggered

tributes from many of you. This is from Les Naimingshire. We're from a small village

gold desert near Prestatin in North Wales. Like many people, my wife and I are very sad to hear

that Liza decided to leave a Saturday evening show. But obviously, we respect her decision to do

that after having presented the show for 14 years. We imagine that it's going to be an extremely

difficult task to find a presenter to fill Liza's shoes. And we also imagine that whoever

does take on that slot would need to have a big personality and would also need to continue in a

broadly similar vein. Such a large chunk of your listener audience have grown to love that

couple of hours escape into Liza's gentle irreverent whimsical humour and interaction with their

listeners, interspersed with their choice of music. On that note, is it at all possible to offer

even if only a chosen selection of back episodes of Liza's shows from the past 14 years on BBC

Sounds or iPlayer? After all, it's not as if the shows were really date, as we don't recall

current affairs being much mentioned, just leaves us wonderful gentle humour. We're sure that if

this were at all possible, it would be a considerable comfort to all those many, many listeners who,

like ourselves, will be suffering withdrawal symptoms for quite some time to come. Thank you.

I'm Michael Bolton from Ellsbury. Liza Tarbuck seems to be the latest casualty in the

heartification of Radio 2, Paul O'Grady, Steve Wright, specialist music shows, all shunted

out the way. The tone and the music of the show is shifted. Hello, this is Deborah Vass from

Disney Norfolk. I am so sorry that Liza Tarbuck is no longer with us on a Saturday evening.

I feel a real sense of loss having listened for years. She's a joyful presenter with a brilliant

instinct to curating music and a rare ability to make the listener feel part of something shared.

Sean Kevney, by the way, would be a fitting replacement. Hi, Tom from North Thinkingshire.

I've never experienced such an eclectic musical discovery humour and an incredible sense of

a community then from listening to Liza Tarbuck. Her show inspired us to visit catching car parks

and tell the gang what a lunch outfit we were wearing on the imaginary ice rink every week.

She'll be sorely missed and I selfishly hope that she pops up elsewhere in the not too distant

future. Hi there. This is Jamie Dyer from Chigester in Wersussex. Just wanted to say that I'm

very sad that Liza Tarbuck has left BBC Radio 2. My family and I spent many a Saturday evening

listening to her witty banter and excellent music selection. We really felt like we were listening

to a friend or indeed a member of our family and she will be greatly missed in that slot. In fact,

I don't think it will ever be the same again. And last week Sean Kevney, who's currently presenting

the slot, gave his own poetic send off. In times that are troubled in times that are tough,

when roads all feel stony and you've had enough, that's when you need a shot of Liza.

There are times you might notice people getting all serious, conceited, delirious, a little

imperious. That's when you need Liza tea. Well joining me now is Simon O'Hagen critic at the Radio

Times and writer of the substack, Scepter Dial. Simon, welcome back to feedback.

Thanks for a much, Andrea. It's very nice to be here. Simon, what was it about Liza Tarbuck

that made her connect so well with her very loyal listeners? Well, certainly going to miss her.

And what are you going to miss about her? I think her immediacy, her instinctive understanding

of everyday life, I suppose you could say. I mean, I've compared her to, I'm sure I'm not

alone in this, compared to Victoria Wood in that sort of sense of communication and identifying,

I suppose, with people's everyday lives. And as I'm sure you know, Andrea, the sort of

little structure of the show was always that it was built around people cooking their dinner on

a Saturday evening. She was gone on six o'clock to eight o'clock on Radio China Saturday evening.

And that sense of her world, her club of friends and listeners, all participating in the same

activity at the same time on a Saturday evening, the most relaxed moments of the week, cooking their

fish pie, cooking their burguignon, wherever it might have been. It just gave that program such a

warm and special feel to it. We've had so many lovely comments about Lisa, many referred to her

wit, her whimsical humor, and laughing alongside her while they made supper and saying things like

that she was part of their family, which is really an amazing accolade for any broadcaster.

But particularly for someone on Radio 2, it's the essence of the station, isn't it? Yes, I definitely

think so. I mean, it's a terrifically warm station. And there was no no moments of the week that

was that was warmer than than her. And you mentioned how we're laughing along with her. Of course,

she laughed at herself constantly. And that's how that's how we came to enjoy her so much and feel

she was so much on our side and we were on her side. We were sort of all in it together in the

nicest possible way. Lisa had singular qualities, but she also comes from a formidable generation

of broadcasting talent who came up through the eighties. She began as an actor and a comedian,

alongside, and you mentioned Victoria Wood. And of course, many listeners will remember her own

dad, comedian Jimmy Tarbuck. But she brought some of that kind of absurdity and comic timing of

her past onto the radio, didn't she? Yes, absolutely. I mean, she was a total to the showbeer's

pro. And I think when you listen to the show, it was almost like two hours of stand-up. And as

with a lot of stand-up, there's a sense of her being kind of on the edge. The thing might just

fall apart at any moment. It's slightly chaotic radio, but actually underneath it all was an

incredible amount of craftsmanship. And I think that was so important. I think I don't know how much

she actually literally sort of learnt at the feet of her dad. But she would have been absorbed

and grown up within a kind of showbiz environment in which she would have observed and understood

how you communicate with your public most effectively. I do feel this is quite a reprieve to be

talking about this on feedback because with the war in the Middle East, the programme has been

taken up with a lot of serious news. And it struck me, in fact, we've been discussing news of

avoidance, people turning off because it's all too much. Listeners listening to Lisa Tarbuck were

actually really enjoying that two hours of escape on a Saturday evening. I wonder what's at stake

then when presenters that listeners really care about go? Well, I think a great deal is at stake.

She's kind of irreplaceable. I think Sean Kevenley, who's been sitting in for us since January,

and is going to continue doing so for, I'm not sure how many more Saturdays, but I mean, he's a

lovely, lovely broadcaster. But somebody like Lisa, who was running the show, presenting the show,

I think since 2012, that's a long old stint. And you know, you become so embedded in people's

lives over that sort of period of time. And you think back to other radiators who presenters,

who've also gone in recent years, who formed similarly close attachments to their listeners,

like Chris Evans or Graham Norse or Ken Bruce, Simon Mayo, in recent years, all these people

have gone. And it's very sad, but of course, you know, this is the way the industry goes. And now

Sadie Lisa Tarbuck has gone. And she will be replaced. And who knows? Maybe there'll be a future

Lisa Tarbuck, who achieved just as much as she has in terms of audience sort of identification

and closeness. But she is, you know, and was, I think, absolutely unique among broadcasters in

the way she mastered the medium and communicated. You've mentioned some broadcasting greats there.

And I wonder if you think that the station is struggling to retain broadcasters of this caliber?

I'd hesitate to use the word struggling. I don't think that's entirely fair because it's

such a kind of fast moving world. And people have their own reasons for moving on. And if they've

given many, many years service, then you can't blame them. And you can't criticize them for it.

And for Helen Thomas, the head of Radio 2, this goes with the territory that people come and go.

I mean, look at how many changes have been on the today program in recent years. It's a part

of the constant evolution of any radio station. And listening habits change and new generations

of listeners come along. Their values and interests have to be reflected in, you know, changing styles

of presentation. But the presentation style of Lisa Tarbuck, I think probably we won't see again

because she indulged in a kind of rescuing us and elution us, which is probably out of fashion.

But you could get away with it because she was just so endearing and funny.

So I mean, it wasn't just her banter, was it? I mean, she played music that a lot of our listeners

really enjoyed, not necessarily because it was their first choice, but because she curated it

beautifully. Yes, she created it beautifully. She did it all herself. It all came from her own

record collection, either literal or figurative. And the range of music was absolutely marvellous.

No, she would play. I mean, one of her sort of motifs at Randall's show was the instrumental

of the stripper, which is traditionally the music of the company of striptease. Now, I mean,

Halun PC is that in this day and age. It's a fantastic piece of music. And she'd play Sophie Tucker,

who was a ward of a lot from the 1930s, who dealt in the most risqué songs. And then she'll

throw in talking heads or the hollies or something, you know, from the pop era. It was an

every choice really hit home. There was nothing bland about Lisa Tarbuck. You know, everything was just

chopped quality. Well, Simon O'Hagan of Radio Times and the sub-stack,

Septored Dial. Thank you so much for joining me on Feedback. Thank you, Andrea.

Now, once again, it is time to introduce the Feedback and you will interview of the year where you

get to nominate the very best interviews you've heard anywhere on BBC Radio or Sines. It could be

a political grilling or a heart-rending revelation. Anything you think deserves to be recognised.

And at the end of the year, a panel of listeners will choose the winner.

Brendan Parsons from Sussex was amongst those who nominated this one, and I'm very pleased he did.

It's Jesse Buckley's refreshingly candid conversation with Lauren LeVern on Desert Island discs,

which aired just before Jesse became the first Irish woman to win a leading actress Oscar.

My name is Brendan Parsons. I live in Sussex.

My cast away this week is the actor and singer Jesse Buckley. She first came to the interview,

which drew in the rest of my family was absolutely inspiring. And what emerged was a picture

of an incredibly talented, driven and natural performer. By 2010, your career was blossoming,

but it was at that point that you decided to enroll at Radar for three years. What made

you choose studying over working professionally? I think because of my parents' relationship

to what art was, I knew that you really do have to commit and educate. And she managed to remain

through to herself naturalistic and got the important things in life right, including the

relationships, whether with a feral but poetic father. And he'd be the kind of man who'd like,

we'd call surfing or boogie boarding in that place in Finneon's Bay that I was talking about.

And if there was a strong current, he'd be like, well, swim harder, like you have to learn

the most extraordinary dives. A wonderful singing voice of her mother, which she played as one

of the discs. Jesse, I think we should go to the music. I can't wait to hear your second disc today.

What's it going to be? This is very special because this is my mom singing. Sorry.

Oh holy nice, in church.

Oh holy God, the stars are rising high, it is the light of the year's six months.

And eventually, of course, with her husband and her family, it was charming to listen to the

details as how she turned down the Hollywood machine. They offered her a swanky hotel, but she preferred

to stay in a shepherd's hut. Go to the shepherd's hut. And my lovely driver was driving me up like

after rehearsals in the pitch black. And he was like, are you sure you're going to be okay up here?

And I was like, I'm going to be so fine up here. And sometimes you just need simple things.

The interviewer Lauren Levin was very skillful, used all her craft to draw out with

gentle pressing, lovely pauses, giving the interview a time and space to fill it with fascinating

details about her life and career. You said that when you were depressed, you won't

kind to yourself, you won't kind to your body. I mean, if you are able to talk about it,

what were you going through? And how did you get better? Did you, did you have to go home to

heal and recover? Well, I had an eating disorder, and it took time, and it took a lot of help,

and it also was depression, so I would like, I mean, I just probably, I didn't know how to be alive

the way I wanted to be. And it was difficult, but I do not for a second regretted, and I think

I've been able to transform it and recognize our vulnerabilities as humans in the world. You know,

you can't walk through life not being affected, but you can transform that into something that

allows you to be more human and alive in the way that you want to be. Very uplifting,

great to listen to, definitely deserves to be interviewer of the year. Definitely one worth

listening to on BBC Science. Thank you, Brandon, and please do let me know by any interview you

hear on BBC Radio or Science that you think is a worthy nominee for the feedback interview of the

year. But that's all for this week. From me and the team, thank you for listening, and for giving

us your feedback. Goodbye.

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