Workplace speech committees and the new speech policing

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It's time for The Truth Be Told with Booker Scott.

I'm Booker Scott and this is The Truth Be Told.

Thank you so much for joining us here tonight and every night as you do.

If you're listening live, thank you. If you found us on a podcast later,

thank you even more for going to that extra effort.

You know, as we have come through the last four or five years,

it really seems like our speech has been oppressed and maybe that's even being nice.

In some cases, I think it was just shut down.

I know that as some of us here in America, we were censored.

We were shut down by our own government.

There has now been proof of that.

We saw that that has happened between the Biden administration, social media, Google.

They all tried to silence us, our voices.

In regardless of what the subject was, it could have been where COVID came from,

whether it came from a Wuhan lab or a wet market,

or whether masks were effective or the vaccine was safe and effective.

All of those things were shut down or attempted to.

Another part of that, though also, and we have seen this in other things,

is how corporate world, regardless of where you are,

they have taken it on their own to mandate things.

We saw that with the vaccines.

You know, they mandated shots, they had to get a shot or you couldn't work here.

We saw that.

But there is also a possibility that they are doing the same thing with speech.

Lisa Myron, she is a Canadian and she has written a book.

The book is called World on Mewed.

How workplace speech committees are destroying our nations

and eliminating our civil liberties.

Lisa, welcome to the program.

Great to have you.

Hi, Booker.

Hi, everyone.

I'm so glad to be with you tonight.

That's wonderful.

Well, I'm glad you're here, too.

Let's talk a little bit about your thesis.

Let's start there.

Why do you feel this is happening?

And what do you see?

And tell us a little bit about this book.

So I'm a lawyer of 26 years.

And I started to look at the,

the speed, what I will call speech committees.

And every way to earn a living.

I'll say that transoccupationally,

every occupation is being sewn up.

And that's transnationaly.

That's globally.

And I started to see that,

then they would attract the speech committees.

And when you had a speech committee,

you could think of the Jordan Peterson case here in Canada,

because you know him quite well.

Right?

And so I started to track this around the world.

But these speech committees do something new.

And so I collected all these cases

from all, you know,

OECD countries all around the world.

And what I noticed is,

it doesn't matter if you have free speech.

It doesn't matter if you have a constitutional order.

What they're doing is really inverting our democracy.

Or, you know, republic,

if that's the case.

And giving you communism,

was that what I would ever say?

Well, let's have a referendum on whether we want this communist identity.

Because once you have a situation

where you have to agree with your government,

in order to hold down a job,

I think that's communism.

And so, you know,

if you have to agree with your government

on certain speech dictates.

And I looked at all these things

that would get you in hot water

with the speech committees.

And that's them.

And so what are the chances that organically,

every nation around the world

is coming up and harnessing all the people

in a certain regulated area.

And all of those regulated areas

get the same type of speech censorship.

And the punishment, of course,

is social and economic apartheid.

So, you know, you're a debate.

You're almost debanked.

I give the example of the Canadian truckers,

if you donated to the trucker convoy,

you know, the government,

you know, took the funds right out of your account,

closed that account,

and then that followed you,

and you were stuck, you were out of society.

And so, these speech committees,

they take away your right to earn a living.

And if you're independent,

if you're an independent farmer,

if you're a small business owner,

if you have the ability,

your small landowner,

or you have independent wealth,

somehow you're an entrepreneur,

you might not understand

why the rest of the world is silent.

So, I wrote the book

to explain this mechanism

that silencing all the regulated professionals

and occupations.

And at the same time,

I wanted to show that

the professions that were independent

were being attacked by the same government structure.

So, you have a total silencing

that's coming around the world.

You know, I can give you examples

in Switzerland, a guy,

Alain Bonnet,

called a fellow journalist,

a fat lesbian,

and for his trouble,

he ended up being charged,

and he's, you know,

faces 60 days in jail.

You have to grey in New Zealand,

and she had COVID clients,

where she's challenging the government,

she's a lawyer,

you should be able to do that,

and she had a run-in

with her, you know,

bar association.

And again, this is a way

to censor speech.

If you fear, you know,

that you won't be able to earn a living,

you'll lose your designation,

you're going to be quiet.

And we've all seen with DEI, et cetera.

Yeah.

Let me ask you a question

about this workplace speech committee.

Is this something that is put together

in corporations?

Is this coming from the human resource department?

What is this committee

who makes up the committees?

These committees are because you're regulated,

like maybe an accountant,

or a lawyer,

or a doctor,

but increasingly even an electrician.

These speech committees are with unions,

what they do now,

if you thought,

well, okay, I'm regulated,

I just pay these enormous fees

for I have no idea what,

and I'll get these courses

that I have to take once a year,

and I have to do my filings.

And that might have been the purpose

before for regulating different areas.

But now they've added this speech committee,

which is an authorization,

I call them truth stampers.

And there's key areas.

There's, you know,

terrible things that get set all over the place,

and terrible things that get posted all over the Internet.

But they only care about a certain kind of speech.

What I found was if you were pro-nation state,

you know, you were a patriot,

if you were up, you know, anti,

you know, you wanted medical consent

before you took a job,

right?

If you wanted,

you could talk about the vaccine

till you blew in the face,

but only one side of the topic.

You could talk about COVID

till you blew in the face,

but only one thought topic.

And then the same thing was,

you know, LGBT,

you could talk gay all day,

but you can't go across the transgender movement.

You know, there's key areas.

And so what my thesis ended up showing

was that these,

the areas that you couldn't speak

were pillars of the global estate.

Yeah.

That's what it sounds like.

Yeah.

Yeah, the censorship is too abrupt.

So it does sound like,

and it felt like it living through it,

that everything that had to do with the one world order,

the world economic form,

as long as you were on their side with your speech,

then you were safe and you were free to go

with what you wanted to say.

You challenged that in any way,

even with a question,

then you were against them

and you were silenced,

you were censored,

and that is what your study

to write this book has showed you.

It's not just the censorship,

it's the idea that you lose the right to earn a living,

because that's really different.

And their self-sensorship as well, Lisa.

You know, the self-sensorship,

I think we have all felt.

I know that I did,

I would imagine that you did too.

So that also was a part of it, isn't it?

And it's a part of it.

And so the book, of course,

covers four different areas.

And the self-sensorship is evident in all four areas.

The first is medical.

And of course, you know all the doctors

that lost their licenses

or in Canada, we had a lot.

And one of the examples is Dr. Hoff,

that I give.

And he, you know, in April of 2021,

he says, well, look, I've got,

I'm very sorry to write this letter,

but I've got all of these patients who've had, you know,

several very sad side effects from the vaccine,

some very tragic,

and he writes the Chief Medical Officer of Health,

you know, the Fauci in Canada of one of our provinces.

In 24 hours, she writes to her, you know,

without the FOIs, her, his lawyers got the FOIs,

freedom of information.

She writes within 24 hours,

let's report him to his college, right?

So for his trouble,

to let everybody know about the side effects

that he was observing directly in his practice,

he goes through law fair,

he gets reported to his college

and they want his license,

they want to pull his license.

So anyone who's a doctor watching this,

they're not going to want to speak up.

Right. Right. Right.

The media takes them through,

so it's, they take the titans

in all of our professions,

the ones who have confidence

and who can speak,

and they dress them down publicly

so everybody else is silent.

We have, we have some here on the network

that are very familiar with that.

So we have shows from Dr. Mary Talley Bowden,

we have Dr. Peter McCullough,

who has shows here on the network.

We have Nurse Jody O'Malley,

who is one of the first whistleblowers

that was a nurse during COVID,

and they all experienced that.

They all came through that,

exactly what you're talking about.

Yeah. And Mary Talley Bowden has her own chapter.

Really? Okay.

Well, she's, she's on Monday nights

right here at five o'clock Eastern time,

on America out loud talk radio.

Oh, that's wonderful.

And I've been one with Dr. McCullough as well.

He's such a, such a lion, a lion-hearted man.

And so at the end,

so I decided, well, what's,

let me scratch the surface.

What's behind medical?

And what I found was an organization called TETA,

T-E-H-D-A-S.

And they have been mapping out,

along with the OECD,

healthcare by AI.

And the goal is,

and they, they set out the laws that you need in place,

the AI laws that you need in place,

the goal is to eliminate our current healthcare system

in its entirety, right?

So this is what I found,

and I found that, so healthcare is defined

as nine sectoral data spaces.

So you're not, you're not healthy.

You just have a certain set of data.

And you're not sick.

You have a different set of data.

You're not dead.

That's another set of data, right?

So it's so dehumanizing where they're going,

and I try and need to warn the world

because the silent doctors,

the silent nurses,

the silent medical professionals

who are afraid of their regulatory body

and their speech committees,

or afraid of losing their license,

will be objective behind this whole speech committee,

is to keep them silent.

So there's no counterpoint,

and we had towards this AI healthcare.

And what they had was the idea of semantic,

so they're all the same labels, interoperability.

They had technical interoperability,

so all the computer programs around the world

would have the same operability.

They had nomenclature semantic.

They had legal.

All the laws.

That need to be in place

in order to upload AI healthcare,

or in that chapter.

And that's, you know,

when Musk was talking about AI,

we have to really see

that there is a real dehumanization

that we become nearly our data

and we're going into a huge operating system.

And so, you know,

I decided that we really need

to warn all the medical professionals

while we still have strength

in the medical profession,

so that they can outlaw these speech committees

and these bodies,

because we're not discussing

the most important things in our society.

I'd like to say that we're going

from a right-based existence

to an access-based existence,

and the mechanisms of how we're doing it

are disclosed in the book.

The name of the book is World on Mewd.

And you're listening to Lisa Myron.

She's talking about the book

and the things that she has found.

And, you know,

the arguments that she makes in the book,

I tell you to go and go to Amazon

and find this book.

It's $8 for the electronic version.

$24 and $28 for the hardcopies

is the hardback is $28.

I want to go back to something.

And by the way,

I think the argument could be made

that artificial intelligence health care

may have a better bedside manner

than some of the doctors that I've had.

I'll just throw that out there.

Inverting democracy,

you brought that up.

Can you talk about that a little bit?

What does that mean

to someone listening to this right now?

Yeah, it's really important that

when I go into the legal and political,

other speech committees

right around the world for, you know,

your ABA, your Bar Association,

your LSO,

your Law Society of Ontario,

all across the world,

the Bar Association,

are checking out certain kinds of lawyers.

They're checking out the pro-nation state lawyers,

they're checking out the free speech lawyers,

and you know,

they're checking out the ones who'd have the balls

to bring the cases against

any of the globalist mechanisms.

And so,

I want you to just envision

that you have a constitution,

but if you can use a rogue power,

this power is not defined in our constitution,

or your constitution is rogue power.

It fits aside.

It's a political branch.

If anything,

it's a administrative branch,

and I say it's a global beast.

It's no longer belongs to any one body.

It's a global beast.

And they can check out the lawyers

by saying,

well, that's speech you can't have since you said it.

That's it.

No more lawyer.

And then,

you wouldn't have

checks on executive,

administrative,

or

pharma,

or any of the other areas.

And so, you could literally,

gerrymanager,

all of society,

and that's what they're doing in every single profession.

And I thought to myself,

well, what would be the worst example?

Because when I started thinking about

the speech committees,

how awful they were,

I thought, well, what would be the worst example?

I thought, well,

what if you couldn't take something even in a pleading?

Right there,

but the remedy is always,

you know, the court says,

no.

Right.

And what I saw was,

lawyers disbarred,

you know,

you could just look at the Trump cases.

What could be less of an insurrection

than asking a court

to take a look at a fact pattern

and put the law there

and hand it over very politely

in your high heel shoes

or your great suit

and make your arguments and wait for the judge.

The idea that you disbarred Trump's lawyers

really gave me the idea,

well, Jesus,

that's pleading speech.

And then,

the lawyers that I spoke to who are bringing, you know,

vaccine cases around the world,

what I was seeing is that they're getting punished themselves.

And so then you have the,

there are cases where people can even find lawyers

because they're too afraid of their professional body.

Yeah, I believe that.

I believe that's probably the case,

no doubt about that.

Attorney Lynn Wood,

do you remember him?

Do you know him?

Are you familiar with his story?

That's right.

Yeah, I mean,

that was everything that you're talking about on steroids.

You know,

Bar Association of Georgia,

really they ended up basically taking his law license,

although he said he was retiring it.

He was in a huge fight there

because he challenged the election of 2020.

And I think that's a great example

of exactly what you're talking about.

Her name is Lisa Myron.

The name of the book is World on Mute.

You can find it at Amazon in Lisa.

I want to thank you so much for doing this work,

for getting it out there,

letting people consider it

and have this perception.

And I also want to thank you for coming on the program tonight.

It has been a pleasure to talk to you.

Thank you so much for having me.

And you can also find me at lawyerrelease.substack.com

and I would love all your support.

Thanks, everybody.

Thanks, Booker.

We pray for rain,

thank you when it's falling

because it brings a grain in a little bit of money.

We put it back in a plate.

I guess that's why they call it God's country.

More truth be told with Booker Scott in minutes

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And we're going to welcome to the program right now.

Jenna Ryan.

Jenna, welcome to the Truth Be Told.

Hello.

How are you today?

I'm doing great.

Thank you so much for making the time

to join us here tonight on the program.

And let's go back a little bit in your history

because when you took a flight on a private jet

to Washington, D.C. on January 6, 2021,

you could not have imagined

what would happen to your life.

I'm sure it wasn't even in any part of your brain, was it?

Not at all.

Not at all.

There was in a million years

I would have never guessed this would happen.

So you go to Washington, D.C.

You go to stop the steel rally with Donald Trump

and you end up at the Capitol.

You end up inside the Capitol

and eventually you're arrested and charged.

When were you arrested and charged?

When did that happen after January 6?

So I was one of the early people

that I was really hit hard in the media

because I had so much content

that I was live streaming the whole time

because I'm so vocal

and I had a little audience, a local audience

in the Dallas-Fort Worth area

with my own radio show and whatnot.

And just always been social media friendly butterfly kind of thing.

So I had a lot of content

that the media was able to seize upon

and use for clickbait

and also to scapegoat me

and make me look horrible.

And also I'm very prolific on social media

so they were able to take my content

and do some really wacky, weird wicked things

with it to try to create a narrative

about the events and about our intentions to the world

and manipulate perspective.

Well, Jenna, you know, in some ways

became the face of January 6.

You're a pretty lady.

You're a rilter from Dallas, Texas.

You're flying on a private jet.

And the next thing you know,

you are literally blown up

on every mainstream media

and legacy media site

and on the news.

What was that like for your life at that time?

Well, thank you for the compliment.

That's very nice.

I appreciate you saying that.

It was as far as the experience

of becoming infamous overnight like that.

That was really strange.

That was an experience

because in, you know,

with the advent of social media

on top of that event

that was so, in my opinion,

where I was,

it was so different from what they were showing on the news.

It was very frustrating.

And it reminded me of a,

it reminded me of a,

have you ever seen that show three company?

Oh, yeah, of course.

Okay, so that's show.

It's like a comedy of errors.

It's like that's the trope is,

you know, we're, you know,

so one of the,

one of the characters over here is another character

and thinks one thing.

So it was like this bizarre experience of,

I have a truth of what I experienced

and these people are putting this label on me

that is not mine.

And I just wanted so much to say,

no, no, it's like this.

But every time I would say anything,

I would dig myself a deeper hole in the PR.

Not mayor.

That was my life,

because I knew nothing about PR.

And I knew nothing about what you call it,

zingers, like one liners,

and what goes viral.

And I thought I was a social media coach,

which I used to be,

but I had no clue about regular media.

I knew how to do social media,

but not regular media.

Yeah, and they would take things out of context too.

I think you had an exposed

that they completely took out of context

or at least one part of it

and kind of blew that up.

What you're describing to us right now,

it sounds like it is almost like an out of body experience

when it first blew up,

because you were almost sitting back

watching a different story than the life

that you were living.

Is that fair?

Correct.

Yeah, I was in my body.

I received every second of phone call.

So my phone was ringing like this,

with people all over the nation,

calling me to tune me out.

And I guess they thought I was like a congressman

or a congressman.

I think of them right now with that omnibus bill,

and they're probably like,

their phones are blowing up.

And I'm like, this is how they blew me up.

But I was getting blown up with all of these accusations.

You are a racist.

You are a white blonde expletive.

A lot of very harsh attacks.

I was ambushed because the media was giving the cues

of what to say and who I was.

So the media was like,

they were saying there was five officers murdered

in the beginning.

Never happened.

And never happened comes to find out,

come to find out it was a lie.

And hundreds were injured.

And so people were coming after me saying,

I deserve life in prison.

I was like, well, I wasn't even near.

I just, I didn't even go in.

But really, I just walked in and I said,

Jesus, Jesus, and walked out.

I mean, I pray how far into the Capitol were you?

Like four or two steps.

Yeah.

And I was sitting right next to a police officer.

And so it was just so bizarre that in where I was,

there wasn't any violence and there wasn't any,

anything bad other than people getting sprayed.

And so what happens whenever you are in a mob,

I have since found I've read that you get something called,

I've read this book called mob mentality.

And anybody in a mob gets a lower level of intelligence.

Your brain just kicks in and your intelligence gets lowered.

It's human nature.

And I think that there were agent provocateurs in the crowd

that took advantage of that aspect of humanity.

And so for example, you know,

I didn't really do anything,

but I knew that I felt like it was Antifa

that broke that window.

And I didn't see who broke it.

But I felt like we wouldn't do this because half the people

I was around were so peaceful and sweet and saying,

excuse me.

But even though I, you know,

but still I, I just,

you kind of get caught up in the moment and stuff like that.

So it was hard to explain anything in that whole process.

And I, I was in my body,

the rally itself or the capital right itself,

I was out of body.

That was not, you know,

that was intense.

It was passionate.

It was phenomenal.

But it was also like, oh my gosh,

what did I do?

You know, it's almost like you got swept away.

Yeah.

Well, when you go back and think about what had happened,

we had the election that happened in November.

And then we had all the things going on in the court.

They were saying there was no widespread election fraud.

There was a fever pitch that built up to that moment.

And then you are there with thousands and thousands of people.

And we know what happened there.

Now for you and your life,

how did it affect you from that moment on?

Once you were charged and arrested.

I was just completely like a ragdoll in a system

that I had no control over anything.

All I could do, I'm single, I'm independent.

I take care of myself.

My signs were defaced.

Like I had a beautiful billboard.

On your real estate.

On your real estate.

Sorry.

Real estate sign.

I had a beautiful billboard.

And I was just, you know, they put,

they put slurs all over it.

And they smeared me everywhere.

And I ended up having to try to take my license.

Thousands of people called the real estate board.

So they had to create an entire board.

Or, I don't know, what do you call it?

Committee.

Probably a committee.

Yeah.

That's it.

Committee to decide.

And they put me in a band.

And they were, they made a statement that they do not, you know,

this is not something that they would take someone's license for.

And I was so happy about that.

Thank God.

Because I'm just one lady by myself.

And my mother was dying from breast cancer.

And she did pass in July of 2021.

So I was right in the middle of a lot of life.

Very large life things.

And I had to change my name to exist.

I had, I changed my name to Jennifer Rogers, which is my maiden name.

And hid from the media.

And then I checked close my company.

I tried to raise some money on PayPal.

I'm in on Twitter.

And I just said, hey, you all can send money to my PayPal link.

And because people were wanting to help.

And PayPal goes and.

Immediately canceled me that night.

I raised $200.

Yeah.

PayPal, you know, I would have probably done a lot better.

But they really nipped it in the bud.

And they came and they emailed me and said,

you can no longer do business with us.

And I called my mom.

And I was like, oh my gosh, you know,

this is the end of the world.

I'm canceled out of the economic system,

the financial system of the world.

And, you know, it's revelations.

And it was very, very mortifying.

That big old PayPal would even care about me.

I mean, I did not notice.

I didn't realize my impact at that level.

And so I was like.

So they said, I'm not going to tell us all.

And then 30 minutes later,

CNET calls me, which is a very big tech,

tech Silicon Valley publication.

They're like, we understand that PayPal has canceled you.

Do you have a comment?

And I was just like, oh my god.

Then I went on the internet news travels fast, doesn't it?

No, I went on the internet.

And it was national CBS,

which was a big deal for me at that moment.

Like it was just bizarre.

Like I am in some other land.

And it was like general Ryan booted real estate agent,

general Ryan booted from PayPal.

So then the next day within one hour,

it became world news.

So it was in like India.

And it was because I had a Google alert on my name.

And I would see I was going in all of these places,

in foreign languages.

And, you know, my neighbors were taking my picture.

Like I was a, I felt like I was in a communist country.

And I was.

Yeah.

Well, we a lot of us went through those times.

And glad we were past it.

And it's in our review mirror.

I want to back up a few minutes ago to something you said.

You said your mom was, was dying.

And she did pass away in July of 2021.

So she is going through this with you at the same time.

And it dawns on me that both of you guys are fighting for your life

in a different kind of way.

What was she like seeing you go through this at a time

when she is fighting for her life?

Well, she knows me.

And so it was right after January 6.

My mother was very proud woman.

And she never wanted to let anyone know she was ill.

And so she'd never let me see that she was hurting.

Because that's when you know you're, I mean, we knew the time was coming.

But we knew that.

And she never let me see her hurt.

So it was interesting because all this was happening.

And she was so proud of me.

Yeah.

So it's like you are hero Jenny.

And she goes, you know, I'm so proud of you.

That's what she said.

That's great.

I just, I was curious how she reacted to everything that you were going through.

Eventually you plead to one charge of a misdemeanor.

Is that correct?

Misdemeanor was demonstrating in a restricted area.

And you serve what 60 days in jail prison.

Did you actually serve the full 60 or was it cut short?

I did serve every moment of 60 days and I was tortured in prison.

Tortured how?

I was made to stay in one room for 60 days, freezing cold like 45 degrees with pajamas.

Not a paper thin blanket for 60 days with 30 to 50 other women.

They used COVID as the excuse.

But I wasn't allowed a phone call.

And it wasn't allowed to go outside.

So that's, you know, that's in the handbook.

But they said because of Omni Omicron.

That they just used to they use that as an excuse to hold me.

That wasn't a typical thing.

Nobody stayed in quarantine 60 days.

So we stayed in there and at times they starved us.

And the interesting part about my cases is that I was supposed to be going to probation, not prison.

But I did a tweet because somebody was chewing me out and saying,

you, what race is blah blah blah.

And so I tweeted, I'm not going to jail because I had just found out from my attorney that I wasn't going to be recommended for jail.

I'm not going to jail in the next day.

CNN was like, General Ryan says she's not going to jail because she's white.

Yeah.

That's the post that I was talking about earlier.

The one they kind of got you in trouble.

Yeah.

And it was like, but it wasn't, it was so.

Oh, okay.

That was the most tweet.

I mean, I still am trying to get my mind around.

How, what's the psychological game that because I'm really astute.

I don't, you don't realize you're going to get caught and I'm not used to all this.

So, you know, I was just trying to take up for myself because I,

but the thing is is that they were attacking me with hundreds and thousands of phone calls.

Yeah.

And millions of tweets.

Oh, and I was just looking at all the, the stuff they were saying.

And I was like, I'm sorry, I'm white.

But I wasn't talking to that one person per say.

I was talking to all these people that had the same thing they were saying to me.

So, I'm in a, but it's just like anybody can find anything about anyone and pick them apart

if they are looking for something.

Of course.

Yeah.

Right.

So Jenna, we have gone through your story.

We go to prison.

You get out of prison.

Here we are years later.

You're doing okay.

You're doing okay after all this.

But we look at Donald Trump coming into office here in January.

And so many people want every J six or pardoned.

And I know that you're looking for that.

What are your thoughts on getting pardoned by Donald Trump?

Do you want that he raised off your record?

You know, I am blown away.

I am absolutely stunned.

This is not what I expected in a million years.

I thought a whole different, I mean, I was totally different trajectory.

But now that we are where we are, I realized that good can come in life.

And that we do have a free country.

And we are the, we the people.

And so I'm so blessed.

I'm so happy.

I am feeling so rejuvenated and free.

And I have been really working on building my platform.

This, you know, platform that's been created negatively and turning that around and using my skills to, you know,

building my own little empire here of, you know, shows and, and my voice using my voice and my passion for America and God and all the things.

And so I think it's phenomenal.

I'm not, I'm not so concerned about having a misdemeanor on my record.

However, what I'm most concerned about is justice.

And to see, just to be treated in such horrible ways and not be able to find an attorney that would even take my case because the enormity of the media onslaught.

And because my reputation was so destroyed and not even be able to get representation and not even have money because I'm just barely scraping by trying to call myself another name.

And, you know, calling all the people trying to get business, but do they like me? Well, they hate me, you know, just trying to find a way and going from that to, to being pardon, which is a sense of justice.

Because I didn't really do anything. I mean, they set that up in my opinion. And I was standing next to a police officer.

And I walked in and walked out. And then I was forced to go before the judge and, and grovel.

And, and say I was remorseful like I was in North Korea. So that was very humiliating.

And I was ostracized from society. And so integrating back into society is difficult. Still because I'm still seen as, you know, this image that's not who I am.

And necessarily by a lot of some people love me. Yeah, some people love me.

And the people that don't like you and don't love you, they're probably not going to change their mind over a pardon.

But as you're talking, I'm thinking how maybe important January six was to opening more eyes for more Americans.

And without it, we may not be to the point we are now where we have Donald Trump back in office.

It is, I think it's a cog in the wheel that is going to be very important in history, especially as we're starting to get more truth coming out.

The IG report from Michael Horowitz a couple of weeks ago, there are, there were 26 confidential informants that were there the day of and they were hired by the FBI.

We don't know how many more were there, but we know for a fact that he has admitted that the inspector general for the Department of Justice has done that.

So we're getting truth. We see what's happening with Liz Cheney and the evidence that she has tampered with a witness.

So, you know, we're starting to see the other side of the story that we were trying to tell for so long is starting to come to the forefront.

So maybe as we look back to January six and the price that you paid will be an important part of American history getting America back on track.

Absolutely. I really feel like we changed the world. I mean, I told one of my friends, I mean, we changed the world because had that not have happened, people wouldn't have, a whole lot of people wouldn't have woken up.

I guarantee people did not like seeing people all over the nation pop pop pop get arrested every day.

It's still happening. It's still happening. Yeah. And hopefully when Donald Trump gets in, that's over with because it's happening all over the country every every week.

You can find a story of someone else that is being arrested for what happened on January six.

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You know as we look around this country, there are a lot of scary things going on.

And if I said we're living in a negative world, what would come to your mind?

Probably a lot of things and probably none of them are what we're about to get into.

I'm going to bring into the conversation now the guy who wrote the book living in the negative world.

His name is Aaron Ren. Aaron, welcome to the conversation.

Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

I think one thing that you wrote in this book, we've entered a new and unprecedented era in America.

And it's one you call the negative world.

And if you would just dumb it down for everybody, what is this negative world?

I'd be happy to do that.

So the negative world specifically refers to the way that sort of society views Christianity.

In my book Life in the negative world, I lay out a model looking at the last 60 to 70 years of American history, where we started out in the 1950s, where although we didn't have a state church, we did have a sort of softly institutionalized generic, you know, Protestant Christianity is our de facto national religion.

Half of all the people went to church.

We were adding in God, we trust to our money.

We were adding under God of the pledge of religions, we had prayer in schools, we had Bible reading in schools.

Then in the 60s, I dated to 1964, a league and you can equip with the days, but roughly in that era, Christianity began to go into decline in America in terms of attendance, adherence, and people beginning to question Christian sort of moral norms and moral frameworks.

And I divide this period of decline from 1964 to the present into three areas or worlds that I call the positive neutral negative world.

The positive world is 64 to 94.

That is a period of decline for Christianity.

I want to be clear about that at the same time society, especially at the elite kind of official level, still basically views Christianity positively to be known as a good churchgoing man makes you seem like an upstanding member of society.

And Christian moral norms are still the basic moral norms of society.

In 1994, we hit a tipping point in it or what I call the neutral world, which lasted from 1994 to 2014 or Christianity is no longer seeing positively, but it's not really viewed negatively yet either.

It's essentially one more lifestyle choice among many in a pluralistic public square.

And Christian moral norms sort of had a residual effect of that era.

And then in 2014, we hit a second tipping point where for the first time in really the 400 year history of, you know, settlement in America, official elite culture now views Christianity negatively.

We're in this negative world, right?

So to be known as a Bible believing Christian does not help you get a job at Goldman Sachs or Google quite the opposite effect Christian moral norms are now expressly repudiated.

And in fact, in some respects, certain segments of Christianity are now viewed as the leading threat to the new moral order.

You see a lot of the hand ring about Christian nationalism very much in this vein.

And so this entry into a place where sort of Christianity with, you know, certainly with the evangelical world that I am most familiar with, sort of viewed itself as the moral majority and now has to face the fact that's kind of on the outs.

And this has been very dislocating.

Will you go back to 1964? Are you able to put your finger on anything that happened that changed the narrative to change that period from 1964 to 1994?

What was it that happened in our country? Was there anything that you've been able to define?

Yeah, I don't subscribe to the where did it all go wrong theory. I don't try to necessarily go back and, you know, some people go back a long way.

Some people say it was William of Aachen, Aachen, Monomenalisms where it all went wrong.

Charles Taylor, this Canadian philosopher wrote a book called A Secular Age that told essentially a four 500 year story of secularization.

I mean, I would say look, the trends were moving sort of away from Christianity in the West for a long time.

I mean, even going back to the, you know, the, you know, the founding fathers, a lot of those guys were not necessarily in private, you know, the most enthusiastic about Christianity.

But the key is, you know, the elite never really was as interested in Christianity in the many respects, but they felt the need to honor it publicly.

And they said, well, we need to have this religion in the country to really have a coherent country.

What happened precisely in the 60s? A lot of things happened. Obviously we had the upheavals, you know, of the late 1960s, the sexual revolutions there.

The generation gap with that, the Vietnam War, we saw the sort of collapse of the old, what they called wasp establishment, the white and those sex and Protestant establishment that had sort of controlled the country in one form or another from a very long time.

I mean, there's, there's this guy who was president of Yale University during the Vietnam War, for example, was a guy named Kingman Brewster.

And he was the 11th generation descendant of Elder William Brewster on the Mayflower.

And so there were still like into the 1950s, maybe even the 1960s, members of the Adams family that played prominent roles.

I think it was Charles Francis Adams the fourth that was the CEO of Raytheon, for example, for a very long time.

And so, you know, that all collapsed. And, you know, there's just a lot of things that started happening in the culture in the 1960s.

And then I think that the next major event that comes along that is really important is the fall of Soviet Union in 1989.

You know, the reason we're adding under God and stuff to the pledging, God, we trust the money. It was part of the Cold War.

It was part of our competition against this easiest communist system. You know, Christianity was sort of bound up with the West war on communism.

And what's communism went away?

You know, we thought, okay, Western culture is going to be triumphant and caring forward.

And people might have assumed Christianity would be part of that. But what it actually gave was essentially a little bit of a green light start rewriting the relationship between Christianity and culture.

And he sort of, you know, de-centering and pushing out Christianity a little bit. I actually debated whether I should put the beginning of the neutral world in 1989 because the Berlin wall.

So, you know, you can, you can make some, some debates about some of these things.

But there certainly been a lot of, you know, a lot of shifts in the culture over that time that really did transform, you know, society in that way.

And again, it's not that the 1950s was some great high watermark of American morality.

Right. Probably it wasn't.

No, right after World War II, the guy was coming back.

There was a lot of hypocrisy. There was a lot of, you know, people didn't necessarily believe.

But there was still this idea that, you know, we had a sort of public religion in the United States, which was sort of a generic kind of a generic Protestantism generic Christianity.

And like now the people who are running into country, you know, kind of the elites have decided they don't need that anymore.

You know, we can dispense with that.

And, you know, to the extent that we have a sort of moral order, that moral order is based on ideologies.

And the problem with these ideologies is they change all the time.

You know, thou shalt not steal is kind of a, you know, a timeless, a timeless principle, if you will.

They're what there really was sort of a moral system that had prevailed for a long time.

Of course, there's like infacies and changes here and there.

But there is sort of an idea that like, okay, great.

You can anchor back to the Ten Commandments or something.

Well, now it's like whenever the flavor of the month is, everybody's got to like all of a sudden tack into the new direction.

You see that in cities in this country right now, where they're not prosecuting and holding people accountable for going in and in shoplifting.

And now we see these shops moving out.

So you can steal in America now.

Right. It's like, you can, you can walk into a CVS with, you know, a couple of huge trash bags, load them up and walk right out with impunity.

But then again, there are people, for example, that said all live matter on a company conference called fire.

So, you know, it's, you're more likely to, you're more likely to get fired for an ideological transgression and some respects that you are.

For, you know, for actually being yet, you know, and more all in some ways, as we would have normally understood it.

You're listening to Aaron Rinn and Aaron writes on substack Aaron Rinn.com also, by the way, that last name is spelled R-E-N-N.

So Aaron Rinn.com.

Aaron, you wrote something in your book.

The negative world poses a profound challenge to American evangelicals and their churches.

And it also helps to explain why there's been so much turmoil and conflict within the evangelical world.

Can you talk about that?

Sure. Well, again, you know, evangelicals are used to thinking of themselves as the cultural mainstream, as the moral majority.

And so having to make this shift from being a moral majority to a moral minority is quite dislocating.

And because, you know, sort of Protestants, Christians were the majority for so long.

They essentially, you know, were relied on sort of the mainstream institutions of society to sort of reinforce their values.

And those are the institutions they looked to.

Whereas, you know, minority groups, although they participate in and look to mainstream institutions,

always had like their own unique institutions by their community to sustain community identity life.

And so the example I use is probably 20th century Catholicism, where there was still a lot of anti-Catholic sentiment at that time.

So they had to create their own Catholic schools.

They had to create their own, you know, Catholic charitable groups.

They had to create their own fraternal society.

They said to create their own Catholic universities.

They had all these practices like abstaining from me on Fridays or praying rosaries that really identify and sustain their community life in a Protestant nation.

And so even evangelicals struggle in part because they never had these to nearly the same extent.

So that's, that's, you know, part, part of the problem right there.

It's a big psychological adjustment and then the lack of these institutions.

And then, you know, the best bulk of evangelical churches and institutions and ministries were built for cultural realities that no longer exist.

And so they need to change.

It's just like how technology comes along and revolutions nice is everything.

First, there's the smartphone, right?

So if you don't have that, you, you know, if you, if you can't adapt to the smartphone revolution, maybe you're an old landline telephone company, you're in trouble, right?

Now AI, who knows what that's going to do.

So, you know, if you have like a business or, you know, a church or anything built for an old reality, new realities, you know, force the need for change.

And so I, I think that is really put a lot of pressure on the evangelical church and the various different groups that make it up.

And I go through some of them in the book and talk about them a little bit, have sort of deformed.

And they're now starting to essentially fight with each other, maybe, you know, a little bit.

And so I think it's, it's just an uncertain time.

Well, Aaron, thank you very much for joining us.

The name of the book is life in the negative world confronting challenges in an anti-Christian culture.

And Aaron, tell everybody where they can find your work.

Oh, just the book is available wherever find books are sold at Amazon or where your local book shop.

And, you know, definitely sign up for my website at AaronRen.com.

And you'll be able to see all my work posted there.

As we come to the end of this hour, we are also coming to the end of another week.

Thank you so much for joining America out loud talk radio.

And also the truth be told every night. I really do appreciate it.

I'm Booker Scott and don't go anywhere.

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