You Need to Learn to Say No (Even to an Inauguration) with Taraji P. Henson [From the Archives]

0:00What happened that eight years that we were in the White House? What did that do to me? Yes. Internally, my soul, we made it through. We got out alive. I hope we made the country proud. My girls thank God our whole. But what happened to me? Right, right? What happened to me? Craig Malcolm Robinson. Michelle Levin Robinson. Not Robinson. Obama. Obama. What do you, what do you, what 30 years? How's it going? It's going well. It's going well. How are you doing? Doing, doing well? Yeah, happy to be here with you. We've got a great show coming up. I'm so excited. But we are here in LA and you doing your thing. I'm doing my thing. I'm staying in an Airbnb again. And I tell you every time I stay in one,

1:01it makes me want to stay in one wherever I go. You know, we're going, we're the boys have a tournament coming up in a month or so. And rather than staying in a hotel, we're going to get an Airbnb so we can do all of our own cooking and washing of dirty uniforms. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm really excited. Yeah, you're just becoming an Airbnb official. I know. I am. I am. I'm quite impressed. I absolutely have enjoyed my time. Because you know, I was always Mr. hotel. You were. Points and all that stuff. You seem younger than you are. That makes you more up to date than, you know, your age portans. You're living like a young person out there. I know. I know. But Airbnb is for everyone of all ages and you were living proof of that. I am. I am. Well, how excited are we? Very, very excited. Well, folks, we I'm going to get right to our guess because we want to bring her out because this is one of those. And I am a huge fan.

2:04And I've got goosebumps. Let me just say my brother has been giddy, little silly giddy all day. And he even wore a whole suit. I did. I got you. Usually in jeans. It's like there's usually we don't know what's going on down there. But you can, but your top matches your pants today. That means we got somebody special. See what happens. See what happens when you try and clean yourself up. Your sister takes full advantage. But we are guest today is none other than Teraji P. Henson. And she is an Academy Award nominated actor, producer, and number one, New York Times best selling author, mental health advocate, and entrepreneur. Yeah. She's own in our own stuff. Yeah, she's starring in Tyler Perry's straw on Netflix, which I watched the trailer. And I was crying on the trailer. I know. Teraji she'll do she'll do that. She does it to you. She does it to you. Yeah, I can't wait for that to come out. I know. I know.

3:05She's also the founder of the Boracel Henson Foundation named after her father, which works to enhance access to mental health services within Black communities. She has also launched TPH by Teraji, a line of spa inspired products, and is the strategic advisor for seven daughters, Mascado. Mascado. I got me a bottle. I had two bottles. I made let you try one. You will. Let me try one. I would love that. If you have, right. But without any further ado, Teraji, please come out. And join us. Thank you. Are you kidding me? I just see you, I bet. I love you. I'm not your hair. Thank you. Love yours too. Thank you. Oh, my goodness. It's in the wild to do mine. So yeah, yeah. It's looking good. That's so much hair. Looking good. Now, the last time I saw one another was at the final White House party.

4:07Yeah. In the last. Yes. The last night. And it was the last night. It was, what was it? Was it the very last? It was one of the last parties I can't remember. So I think it was. Yeah, I think it was. But I just never, I just never forget I was leaving. And I thought it was pretty late. It was. I'm leaving because I'm tired. My feet hurt. I have one socks. And I remember you saying that because you're just like girl. I'm getting hurt. You made socks walk into the car. Yes, because my feet I danced out of my shoes. And Tom Hanks was walking across the floor. He's still party. I will never forget that. Well, we are thrilled beyond thrilled to have you here. Thank you. Let me let me just fan girl a little bit because I didn't get to do that at the party when I saw you. But we are huge fans. Thank you. And you. Oh, man, you just bring. Every part of you. To the work that you do.

5:08And I will. Never forget my reaction. And I know a lot of actors like you who do so many things don't want to get pigeon hold into one role. But let me just say. Cookie on empire. I mean, I got on the phone. To people. When when you showed up on screen because I was like, this is a real character. Yeah. I mean, this is like, like, I felt all of who Cookie was. And I called people on the phone. I was like, you have got to watch empire. This is a different kind of a series that's coming on. And it was because of your performance. Thank you. And, you know, and then to see the trailer of straw, which is, you know, the story of black women at the edge of everything. And just the trailer alone, as Craig said, Yeah. As brings you the tears. I guess I just want to know where does all that come from and that little bit in body of yours.

6:14Well, I am trained. I went to however, there's. But, you know, as an actor, sometimes, you know, sharing a bit of, you know, the characters joy or pain, mine might bleed in a little bit. And I've been through some things in life, you know, it wasn't easy growing up, you know, in the hood, whatever. But, you know, I made it out. But, you know, life will throw curveballs at you. And it's not always, you know, I know people look at celebrities and they're like, Oh, you got it, maybe because you're rich. But like the great guru Biggie Small says more money, more promise. Oh, yeah. You know, you think your problems go away because you finally made it or whatever. And it's like, no, you get more problems, more expensive problems. But again, you know, the training and just being true to the character. And I think as actors, what we do is very spiritual. Yeah. Because we use our bodies as vessels to tell a character's truth.

7:17And so I can't judge that character. Right. A lot of times I do like I judge cookie at first. I was like, oh my god, she's a horrible guy. I did. It was hard not to. But the job of the actor is to show the why. And when you show the why, that's when you gain empathy. Yeah. Because there's always a why. Well, I, you know, I'm a trained athlete. So I'm different. But when you said that, you know, I'm trained. It, you know, I never, I never think of that with non athletes. Right. That is it's a real skill. It is. But to the, I'm just sitting here getting nervous because every time I watch you on the screen, I feel something. Emotionally. And I just want to thank you for that. Because it is a, I mean, just I'm thinking about, you know, Benjamin Button. I'm thinking about proud Mary.

8:20I mean, proud Mary. Well, you know, I still have a 15 year old and a 13 year old. Oh, wow. So that, that, that hit me, you know, the, yeah, I will let my kids watch our rated movies if you're in them. I want to know some of the, the why of Tarraji. Okay. The real woman. You know, because you are doing a little bit of everything now. You know, you are not just acting and, and winning awards. But you're building an empire of your own. Yes. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because you just had, you know, a major win personally on the business side. Yes. Gaining more control over your own stuff. Can you talk a bit about your company? Yes. Well, TPH, I don't know if a lot of people, the may or may not know this about me, but I didn't get accepted into Duke Ellington School of Fine Arts in Washington, DC. And the next thing, my next passion was cosmology.

9:20I love doing hair and nails and makeup. But I missed, you had to enroll in the ninth grade. I missed it by a year and I just think it was God. Yeah. You know, I wasn't supposed to go down that path. But that's, that's always been a passion of mine. That's how I fed myself in college, you know, because I didn't have money. And so I would do $20 wet sets because I had a hooded dryer out of my norm. And you went to Howard. And I went to Howard. But my first I started at North Carolina, and T because, yeah, because I really didn't think I could add. And then my father let me fall flat on my face because math is not, I'm not mathematically wired. Me either girl. I'm an artist. I am an artist to the bone. And so when I failed pre-calc, my dad was like, that's what you get. Now you get back up here and go to Howard and you enroll and you get back into acting. And that's how I was. You were running from. I ran from it. Oh, wow. I ran from it. I was, I thought you were saying your dad. No, he wanted, no.

10:22I could have. No, he knew that I was a performer. He was telling me when I was little that I would win an Oscar, you're going to be one of the greatest actors alive. And because I'd been hearing that so much from him when I did not get accepted into Duke Allington, I couldn't, I didn't know how to take that, you know, take that failure on the chin. I didn't get it at first. I didn't get it at first. What was that 12? How did that use? You believe that. You go, that must have been, I can't act. Sure. You know, and having raised my children in Washington, done a lot of work with the Duke Ellington School. Yes. And to put it in perspective, it's like the Whitney Young, the magnet school that I went to, you know, well-funded school, you know, that just pushes out a lot of amazing artists all over the place. So I can imagine you grew up with that being your, you know, my North Star. So I just thought that I just thought I didn't have the talent. And so imagine me going back to Howard, I felt out of sorts.

11:25And then finally, when I got back into the groove and I found my footing, everybody was like, well, you know, you went to Duke Allington and I was like, no, I did. No, I didn't. They didn't accept me. Well, that is, you know, a beautiful thing to have a black Maddie. Right. I don't believe in his baby so much in a very challenging and non-traditional career. Yeah. You know, what a blessing that was. That man being that wing, when beneath your wings. Yeah, it was because, you know, in the day of you should be a doctor or you need to be a lawyer. He really saw my gift. So, but like I said, I was doing $20 wet sets. So hair and cosmology has always been in me. And I remember when I first got to Hollywood and I started working and I couldn't afford weeks when I was in college. So when I got to Hollywood, I heard about, you know, women, I lost my edges and I didn't want to lose my edges and I started working and see we have that issue.

12:27We're great. You see what you said. I was proud. She said we have that too. And then she looks up in my head. Well, that's what happened. That's what happens. Maybe if you had a foul TPA, there you go. I'm sorry to write you. I didn't have to give it to my brother. It was perfect. You know, I'm the older brother. You know, you know that, right? Well, she's making up for all the times when you picked on her. There you go. I'm sure. But in the spirit of saving our edges. Yes. So I just remember I got my first install and I was like, well, this is great for protecting my hair, but how do I get to my hair? How do I take care of my hair? What's your god given it? And so I created this concoction and I remember going on vacation with a girlfriend of mine and her daughter. They had protective styles and they complained about itchy scalp. But I said, we'll use what I use and I put it together. And they came out of the bathroom and I was like, oh my god, where do I get this? This is amazing.

13:27And I was like, give me a minute. And so that's how TPH was born out of my own necessity. For me, it was about the education of scalp because I knew women were getting installs wearing wigs. But I was like, I don't think they understand that you still have to take care of your hair if it's in an install. So that's when I was like, this is a great way for me to enter into the beauty industry. So that's how TPH was born out of my own necessity. And you now own it. I own it. I finally, I bought it back. It's mine. It's mine. It's mine. It's mine. It's mine. I have a lot of work to do. But I am ready. I'm ready for it because it's mine. I feel like I feel like cookie. I own my company. There you go. There you go. And you know, that's where it begins. So now you're a business woman. Yes. You adding that on to your plate? Yes. But you've been doing all that and raising a strong black man. I want to know how do you manage it all?

14:28It wasn't easy. It's never easy. You know, as life you have ups and downs. You have dark days. You have light days. You have gray areas. And for me, it was just learning how to take care of myself. Because as women, we take care of so much. And we take care of the family. And a lot of times, we put ourselves last. Yeah. And it took me a while to understand that if I don't pour into myself, I have nothing to give. And I've reached those points a lot in my life, trying to do so much. And I come from the grind, grind, grind. That grinding will kill you. And I would work so hard. And then just feel burnt out. And it made me question sometimes, is this even still what I want to do? Wow. You know, because of the exhaustion. The acting. Yes.

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19:34You know, that's not the case for me. And that's not the case for many black actors. I would imagine, right? Yeah. It's not. So when you see us working at large because we kind of have to. Yeah. Well, Tarrasia, what you just said about being burned out, I hear my sister talk about that. Now, I didn't hear my mom talk about that, but I want to dig deeper into that a bit. Where does that start? Do you think you were trained to take on all of these things? Or did you develop that because you just, you're out of necessity? Out of necessity to be excellent because we have to be so much more, we have to be so much better than most to get where we want to be.

20:34Or is it innate just in our culture because where we have been because of slavery and the it was really the black woman who had to protect the family because the black man was getting sold all over the place. Where do you think that comes from from you? And then I want to hear where it comes from from. I think it's a combination of all of it because there is you know, things that happen in slavery, that's still in our DNA. That's still a part of who we are. You know, so I can't run from that. That's my makeup. Watching my mother do it. Watching my grandmother do it. You know, it's just what I'm used to. Unlearning, unlearning that trauma is where I am now. But for so long, it was just, this is what you do. You know, I watched my mother work two jobs, you know, and to put food on the table and pay the rent for our little apartment.

21:35You know, and so I grew up going, that's what you have to do. You got to work however many jobs and grind hard to make it happen. I was a single mother. So I didn't have time to sit down. I remember one day and this like, Marcel was like four years old. I was so tired I wanted to cry. Like, you know, I don't think I wouldn't wish being a single parent on my worst enemy. Literally because, you know, think about when you're exhausted. And it's like the baby's crying, oh, can you go get him honey? There was no honey that I was honey. So if I worked 12 hours and I still honey, I was still honey. I still, if the baby sick, everything fell on me. You know, and I just remember one day, I just, I wanted to, I was on the sofa and I just wanted to give up. But that's not in me either. You know, I think those thoughts, but then my ancestors go, girl, you better get them. You know, and that's the, you know, the part of what you said that you'd never heard mom complain about it.

22:41I think that that's part of the, part of the issue. Part of the trauma. You know, when we grow up, our, our, our grandmother's, you know, grandma Levan, grandma Rebecca, you know, these were all women, all black women had to work. Yep. Our mother was fortunate. She didn't work until I went to high school, but that was a choice that she and my father made. Because so we lived off of one salary and we made huge sacrifices for that. Because I think my mother understood that if she was going to be the kind of mother she wanted to be, that we would forego live in a good life, that we live in a little bit of apartment and just make ends meet. But that was a rare thing. But you've never heard these women complain because it wasn't what, it was just the way life was. And I think that that's part of our trauma too. Because we grew up with women who weren't voicing the pain and the burden.

23:41They made it look easy. And when you make stuff look easy, people assume that you must like this. Yeah. It's okay with you, right? Right. You know, we don't articulate as black women are pain. Because it's almost like nobody ever gave us permission to do that. And does anyone care? Yeah, there's no care. If we knew, I think we would care. If we knew. If we knew. Or, you know, yeah, and we have to ask ourselves, the men in our lives is, why wait to be asked? It seems like what we go through is pretty obvious. I mean, maybe we're not complaining, but we're actually living life out loud. You know, you see us carrying these babies. You see us working a job and coming home and managing, getting food on the table and handling doctors appointments. And this is, you know, if you've got a partner, right?

24:43I think some of us feel like, why should we have to ask? Yeah. You know, it seems apparent. And as black women, sometimes we, you know, there is that underlying thing we're socialized to believe from very early on that we don't deserve any better. Mm-hmm. You know? Or that this is life for us. It's going to be hard. Like, I grew up just expecting it. You know, I did. And, you know, it wasn't until, you know, like my son, he's growing up. There's no dad around my father, my father, and no six. His father was murdered two years prior to that. And so it's like, who do I turn to, you know? And then, as you know, young boys, as he's growing up, the roles, color glasses come off. And he's starting to see life for a young black man. And that was difficult. And I'm not a black man. So how do I help him maneuver through this? And, you know, I was like, we need help.

25:43And it was time to look for therapy. Which I never shunned there, because my father was a Vietnam vet. And he always talked about his struggles openly. And so I was like, well, then we need help. And so I started looking for help for us. When I couldn't find anyone who looked like us, because now I got to get my son to open up to someone. And he's not going to feel right. Yeah. And then the person doesn't feel familiar. And I was like, something has to be done here. That's when I launched the Forest Lawrence Henson Foundation and honor of my father. Because I know in our community, we just do not talk about mental health. We don't. Exactly. We do not. Because we are demonized. We are chastised. Where it's looked upon as weak, you know. And I thought we give it to God. We give it to God. And that's not important. It's spirituality is an important. But God gifted humans to be therapists to help other humans.

26:46So go hand in hand. You need both. So I was like, this is a real problem. And we started looking at the numbers. And only like 7% of the therapists, clinicians and psychiatrists were of color. I was like, this is because our children don't know to to go into this career to even study this in college. And so I was like, we have to do something about this. That's when I started the work in the mental health. That's when I started checking myself. Like, whoa, you have been operating dysfunctionally for a while. You know, so a lot of stuff I'm doing now is undoing. Yeah. It's a lot of undoing. But it's, I'm grateful. Because I feel better. Yeah. You know. And then I can help this generation coming behind. To not fall into the saying, you know, traps that I did. And believing the same things that you know, we just didn't know otherwise to believe.

27:46Well, I think that's why it's important for us. And tables like this for women like us who do have a platform to talk openly about the challenge that it challenges that we face. Not because we are complaining, which we don't want to ever be complaining. But because we need to change, we need to turn that cycle on its head. Yeah. And we have to talk about our stresses openly, you know. And also as black women, we are so easily labeled as angry and bitter. And let me tell you some of the most hurtful stuff that I experienced, you know, entering this life of public service at the heights that we entered into was during my husband's presidential campaign. And just me telling the truth of who we were, you know, you know, just humanizing him as a man saying he's, you know, he's a great man, but he's not perfect.

28:48You know, he's got his foibles and his flaws trying to humanize him. The first thing that some female journalist said is that I was bitter. I was, I was emasculating him just by sort of trying to tell the truth about what life is, right? And then you get labeled as angry, you know, because you talk forcefully or passionately about something, even if it's in the context of great joy and pride that the first label they put on us as black women is that we are angry. And, you know, the irony is, it's like, yeah, I am probably less light than many of my white female friends. I see that. Less light. Not like light. Like L-I-G-H-T because I say this a lot. I mean, I see the difference in some of my white female

29:52friends. I see a lightness and ability to be in the world and see what's going on, but still be not as burdened about it as I think I am. You know, I think that what I see happen in the news, you know, the assault on immigration rights, the, you know, the challenges that face our community, the inequality. I think it burns at me in a different way because it affects you. Yeah, it affects your children. Yeah, it affects you. Yeah. So imagine, you know, we wake up every day, just carrying that. Yeah. You know, even if it doesn't directly affect me, sometimes I just have to reading the paper. Yes. So that I can, I can stop thinking about all that's wrong. Sometimes I don't know about jute raji. I can't stop thinking about it. Yeah. Yeah, that's why I have to,

30:58I'm not as, you know, I'm not on social media that much, you know, as you get older, you realize what's important and how to protect your peace. And honestly, social media, we're not supposed to feel all of the emotions that we feel in that short span of scrolling. One minute you're laughing, the next or your angry next minute, you want to cry. That's, that's not even, that's not right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Something is wrong about that. But, you know, a lot of times that's where you get the news. And or you, you see something disturbing in it. I'm an empath. I saw I take things on. I stopped watching the news a long time ago. Yeah. I had to because sometimes I feel like, are they trying to scare us? Like, is there anything good happening out there? So I had to stop to protect my peace. Well, speaking of taking care of ourselves and we like to think of IMO and sort of therapy for the folks who aren't quite there yet. Yeah. And in that vein,

31:58I'd love to get to our, our listener question from Shantane from North Carolina. We're not even halfway through the year. And as a black woman, I feel burned out. It's not just the world and politics, but it's also the expectations of myself and others as it pertains to my personal life, like career, family issues at my job, obligations I feel pressured into and more. I don't know you personally, but I imagine he might have been here before. Any advice? Mm-hmm. And learn the word no. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I know this both, this hits both of you in a different way or in a similar way. Well, you embarked upon an interesting journey to find your peace recently. Can you share some of your, your tools for, for trying to find that peace? Well, I'll tell you this, no is my favorite word. Yeah. No. No is, and I found out how powerful

33:04no is, especially in Miss Town. This is the town of yes. Yes, men, yes, I'll do it. Yes, whatever you need. Just a big yes, dog. You know, but no is so powerful because that is you taking up for yourself. Right. No, I don't feel like coming to dinner. No, I don't want to do that role. I don't, that's, that's, that doesn't serve a purpose for me. Yeah. I know the check is great. Maybe that's someone else's blessing. Yeah. You know what I mean? And the relief that I get from saying no, because I know I'm protecting my peace. I know I'm doing a good thing because for a while, I was the yes girl, the people pleaser, you know. And I just couldn't do it anymore because it wasn't servicing me and I wasn't, I wasn't feeling fulfilled. Because why am I doing this? I've had to cut people out of my life. It's okay. You wait me down. You know, I can't carry your

34:11load and mine. You know, family members even. Yeah. Sorry. And you don't learn that it's unfortunate. You don't learn it until you get older. That's right. Because in your 20s, you just, I'm ready to do it all. Even in your 30s still. But as I, you know, I'll say about 45, I was like, yeah, I'm not going to do that anymore. That doesn't serve me. That doesn't make me happy inside. And if I say, yes, that person is happy. But then I'm left to carry something that doesn't feel comfortable to me. Yeah. Yeah. How have you shared this with your young son? And I say young to 30s still young. Yeah. Very young. Do you encourage him to therapy? Because I'll tell you, but you know, black men are with their, that we, we ain't really feeling the therapy thing. No, he's not like that at all. Oh, that's great because it's, it, it, it, we need to educate our young black men.

35:14That therapy is a good thing. We go to therapy together. You think of mothers' some relationships is easy. Yes. Without a dad. That's right. Yeah. It's not. All relationships need work. You know, even the relationships with my girlfriends, you know, we get in our little stuff sometimes. But, you know, we're in a place where we're all in therapy. So many of my health goes tie back to my sleep quality. And I found that when it comes to making lasting changes to your health, simple informed choices can have the biggest impact. One thing that's become a regular part of my routine is bi optimizers magnesium breakthrough. It combines seven different forms of magnesium to support relaxation, a balanced stress response and recovery, all things that help maintain an active lifestyle. I've been taking two capsules at night. And I've definitely noticed a difference in my sleep, especially fewer restless nights where

36:19I can't settle down. Here's what you get when you go to bioptimizers.com slash IMO and use code IMO. 15% off your entire order of free travel size bottle of massimes bi optimizers best selling digestive enzyme added to your order automatically when you use our exclusive code. That's a $20 product free on top of your discount. This is a limited time offer and while supplies last, you cannot get this on Amazon. You can't get it in stores. This offer exists in one place. My link, my code, that's it. Bi optimizers break through science results you can feel. Take this first step toward a healthier future. It's time to invest in a stronger, longer, better life. You know, when I hear you talk about the practice, what I'll call the practice of no, because you're absolutely right. And I know that everyone struggles with disappointing people with

37:25trying to set boundaries, but I particularly relate to what you were saying about. It takes you a while before you maybe as a woman, as a black woman, where we feel comfortable saying, no, I sit here thinking, well, why is that? And why was that for me? Because this is something that I am working on right now. I have believed in therapy my whole life, done couples therapy with my husband, both my girls, they believe in therapy. This generation, thankfully, I think our children are way more open to it. They understand the importance of self-help and all of that. I also sort of realized that, you know, even Michelle Obama, I am still trying to tell myself that I am doing enough, right? Because there's always that feeling. I think

38:28we practice that striving because in order to be successful, I always felt like I had to be smarter, faster, work harder because somebody was going to doubt me. Somebody was always already telling me why I couldn't do something before they knew me or even tried. So you get in the, and I don't think this is unique to just women of color. I don't think it's just unique to men. But when you get in that habit of that constant striving and constant proving that, you know, it's enough, it makes us overachievers, but you don't ever turn that off. And at 60, I was still, I had to convince myself that I had done enough. After all that I had done in the world, I still felt a guilt, right? Struggling with like deep guilt that maybe, maybe I needed to do a little bit more. So I'm at this stage in

39:28life where I have to define my life on my terms for the first time. So what are those terms? And going to therapy, just to work all that out, like what happened that eight years that we were in the White House? What did that do to me? Yes. Internally, my soul, we made it through. We got out alive. I hope we made the country proud. My girls thank God our whole. But what happened to me? Right. Right. Right. And going through therapy, you know, is getting me to look at the fact that it maybe, maybe finally I'm good enough. Right. And unlearning some of those messages that I've been saying to myself and then trying to actively practice something different to rewire those neurons in my head that make me keep pushing and keep striving. And so practicing no in a very different way intentionally. But then this is what makes it hard because, you know, my decision to skip the

40:35inauguration, you know, what people don't realize from my decision to make choices at the beginning of this year that suited me were met with such ridicule and criticism. Like people couldn't believe that I was saying no for any other reason that they had to assume that my marriage was falling apart. Right. You know, it's like, well, I'm here really trying to own my life and intentionally practice making the choice that was right for me. And it took everything in my power to not do the thing that was right or that was, was that person that was perceived as right. But do the thing that was right for me. That was a hard thing for me to do. I had to basically trick myself out of it. And it started with not having anything to wear. I mean, I had affirmatively because I'm always prepared for any funeral, anything. I have I walk around with the right dress. I travel with clothes just in case something pops off. So I was like, if I'm not going to do this thing, I got to tell my

41:41team, I don't even want to have a dress ready. Right. Because it's so easy to just say, let me do the right thing. But then you become a shock absorber. Yeah. And that's what women are. Yeah. Shock absorbers. Yeah. And that's exhausting. And it is not healthy. Yeah. It is not healthy. You've had to be shock absorbers for your husband, for your children, for your mom, for your family. Your loved ones because of where you were sitting in the public eye. That's not fair to you. When do you ever get to live for you? I applaud you. I am I'm happy that you are taking care of yourself in the way that you need to. Yeah. You know, I've been talking to Misha about this. And um, opting out might be that that's a a a great prognosis or a great

42:42suggestion or strategy for for folks who are feeling the way we're feeling the way yeah. And we're talking about here because you can't keep pushing through that that's detrimental that could end very bad because you're not paying attention. I mean, I had a girlfriend one time. She had she was taking on so much. She didn't even realize she spilled hot grease on her chest. She just just figured her entire chest doing too much. I mean, physically it's impossible. You have to stop and go, whoa, what's happening with me? You know, I have to check out I'm sorry, everyone. I have to check out for my own safety and sanity. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a hard thing to do, but you must you must. I don't know what that's sending the kids away for summer. I used to get on my mom because that last day at school, my bag was in the truck.

43:43But that's right. And I, I, I, you know, I totally get it. I understand that woman need is a break. And I was a kid. I was very ram bonks. It's probably undiagnosed ADHB, but here we are. Found a way to turn your anxiety. Exactly. Yeah. But if you're saying you're just learning, I'm just learning. It's something that you have to do. And hopefully, Shantay, you will get this message from hearing from me and from Queen Michelle that you have to take time for yourself. And spite of making people happy, at some point, you have to make yourself happy. Yeah. Yeah. Is that sample? And one of the ways I started thinking about this, you know, because this is the habit. It's like maybe if I'm maybe I'm still working on being able to do things just solely for myself and being okay with that. I'm still working on it. Yeah. Through therapy and conversations

44:44like this and talking to my friends, but I'm still thinking about the example I'm setting for my daughters. Right. So I am trying now that they are 23 and 26 to talk to them about my menopause brain. I'm like, how old are they? Is it what he's referring to? I want them to start practicing now. The art of saying no, because I see it in them, you know, pleasing, excelling, not wanting to take anything for granted, always showing gratitude, right? Feeling like they're enough right now, right? It's a practice. It is. Right. It's a muscle that you have to build, because if you don't constantly build it, you don't develop it. And I think we we suffer it, because it's almost like we're we just we started training late in life to build that muscle,

45:47right? I am just now starting to build it, right? Yeah. I want our daughters. I want the young women out there. And I you know, I know we're talking about women of color, but we're talking about women and we're talking about all people who take on too much. I mean, we can identify and relate to our why as black women. But I don't I don't presume that other people aren't aren't dealing with these same struggles, right? So I want my girls to start practicing different strategies for saying no, right? I don't want them to because of I'm showing up at this stage in my life, and they are seeing me still wonder whether I deserve to say no. What does that teach them? If I after all that I've done in this world, if I'm still showing them that I have to keep, I still have to show people that I love my country, that I'm doing the right thing, that I'm always setting going high all the time, even in the face of a lot of hypocrisy and contradiction, right?

46:56All I'm doing is keeping that crazy bar that our mothers and grandmothers set for us. So I'm trying to teach them just like, you know, shantei, you got to start practicing your nose. So you build that muscle sooner the better, the sooner the better. And here's the thing, I what what I've realized in in practicing, no, a little bit, people can handle no. They really can. That's right. Those are really and we know that important. You know, the world doesn't stop standing because I said no to your event. They usually just move on to the next thing. Yes, absolutely. And so you know, life goes on. And if we if we stop carrying the load, maybe somebody we set it down, somebody will pick it up. Absolutely. You know, somebody will pick it up. I just celebrated we my family just celebrated my grandmothers 101 birthday.

47:58Oh, thank you. And this woman who raised eight of her own children, one niece raised nine children was married for 61 years before my grandfather passed away. I see her living her life finally. You know what I think that what does she look like when you say, what does that look like? She's one. She okay. So well, she had she's she's been with me to the Oscars. She's been with me to the Emmys twice. She's come out here. She's seen every house that I've owned out out here in LA. She's traveled. She's been on on on cruises and she's not only she prepares for the next thing. Not only does she look forward to the next day, she prepares for that. And she was like, what y'all gonna do for my birthday? She loves to celebrate. And she loves to bring people together

48:59and to have a good time. I see her living for herself finally. You know, she gets it's it's literally about what she wants to do. Yeah. Yeah. And I know that's why she's still here. Yeah. It's like a second. Yeah. And we don't want to have to wait till we are 100. No, we don't to do that or no. We don't want to do it. Yeah. Or 55. Right. But I'd say I don't know how all you are. Right. You better start saying no. I love that. So now let's think back to so you what you know now you go back to the younger your younger selves. Besides just saying you got to say no earlier. What are you telling your younger self so that you can you can start this work earlier? I wish I had known about therapy younger. Okay. I didn't find that until late 40s 50. Okay. Okay. I didn't. I wish I had known about therapy earlier. I mean, I knew but not only kind of I didn't

50:01know, but I couldn't afford it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what kind of strategies are you learning that we can help Shantay with or that have helped you. One of the things I heard about that I thought was about you, Tarraji, is that you you play a lot. Tell us about you got to play room. I have a play. I always. Okay. I grew up. My mom couldn't afford a lot of this stuff. Remember the catalogs you get Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We would go in rip pages circled exactly. So I always. Bathroom reading for us. Yes. Yes. I couldn't. Well, I loved when we got those big catalogs. And I would go in there and I would circle and I would always promise myself, I don't care how old you get. But you're going to be successful. And when you do make sure you have your little girls from that's what I used to call. Okay. And in that room was going to be all the things that my heart desired. You know, back then it was dolls and the things that in the toy book. But as I got older,

51:03it became the salon. And in the salon is where I play. I have doll head. I have prosthetic hands where I practice doing nails. And during the pandemic, they called me the quarantine queen. Because I was learning teaching myself how to do nails. I was teaching myself how to cut and color hair. And that's where I would go. And anytime I'm in distress, you will find me in my salon. Wow. And what you're doing is doing what you love doing for yourself. For myself. People think it's a little creepy because all the doll heads are looking. But it's my happy place. It makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. I would be remiss if I didn't ask both of you. We don't know what Shantay's situation is. But

52:07how can we as men help you all with this process? Now where I said at the convention, do something. See this way I got to do it. Well, I'm a GF point. Do some do okay. Any suggestions? My dear. Just a couple do something. But you know what I mean. I know I know Shantay's guys are trying to help. But we don't know how to help. We can barely get ourselves to therapy. And we're trying to fuck our way through this. I'm here for you, but I don't know what to do. Sometimes just saying that. Sometimes just saying that because I feel seen. Okay. You're not just ignoring me. You're not just going on about your way, thugging your way through things. You're going. You know what? I see your indistress. I just don't know how to help. Then that allows me to go. This is how you can help. Okay. Open dial. And you know what I also want. You know, if if you're not going to therapy,

53:13then I want you to find the place where you're going to keep growing to that. Yes. And you can't grow in your own mind alone. Right. So if you if there are issues, you know, and you see me struggling, you know, you can't always fix my struggle. But I would want the men and their lives to take a look at themselves too. Yeah. Because if we're doing all this work is women figuring out, going to therapy, you know, finding our peace, you know, trying to heal our trauma, then you got to be doing the same thing too. Because it's not just me. It's both of us. It's all of us. So I would say to the men, you know, do the work too. And and and and find the way find the way to do the work and the way that you can do it. And if you can't go to therapy because you're thugging it out, then talk to somebody. Talk to each other. That would be something if that

54:18that helps. And then, you know, throw a load of laundry in it, you know, make breakfast. Yeah. You know, I, well, you know, I'm not okay. If it's not you, then it doesn't apply. It doesn't apply. But for the breakfast out there, he didn't say the Airbnb. He washed the dirty uniforms. I heard him say that. Thank you. It's nice of you to remember that. No, this is, this has been extraordinarily helpful for me as a man to hear you all be so vulnerable and so authentic with this. So, uh, and also can be vulnerable as well. Yes. Yeah. Be vulnerable. Don't thug your way through it. Yeah. Right. And I think we have to talk, we have to, you know, we have to rip the veil off of these conversations. Yeah. And talk about what we struggle with. Talk about the help that we're getting. And the help you need. The help you need. And we have to learn how to articulate our pain.

55:19Yes. And not be afraid to say we're hurting that this is hard, that I'm scared, that I'm tired. You know, and then, you know, we want the men in our lives to, you know, give us a safe place to land when we do that. Right. Yeah. Maybe there's nothing to fix, but maybe it's just listen, don't make us feel like we're crazy. Right. You know. Right. Right. No, I get it. Yeah. So, uh, this has been some heavy stuff I would like to know, how do you spend your leisure time? Like, what is to Raju Piansen doing? She's, are you in your toy room? I'm in the toy room. When you're not in the toy room. No, I, you watch anything or you read anything. What are you doing? I enjoy, I just got a new puppy. Well, I already have a dog, Buddha. And Buddha just seemed lonely because I can't change Buddha around. He's a little French bulldog. Okay. And so I got him a friend. Zen, Buddha and Zen.

56:23And so right now, that's what occupies my time. And puppy, I just, um, four months old and Buddha is too. And so right now, they bring me so much joy. So that and, um, you know, family time. And I love going to visit with fans. Like I said, I just came back. I have lots of cousins and, you know, that always, um, lifts my spirits and it gives me the motivation I need to keep going, you know, my family. Cause they, I just love my family. I come from a family where as cousins, we go out to sleep on a pallet. Um, yeah. Before the blow up mattress, big blankets on the floor. And so we're really close. So I, I'm saying that right now because that's what's brought me this joy that I have. I'm carrying right now because I just came back. Yeah. Um, from saying them. So yeah. And a little birdie tells me that you are a real housewives, uh, fan. Is that correct?

57:29I like that. I do. I watch, I watch. Unscripted is good because I love unscripted. Because it makes you forget about your problems. Exactly. You're like, that's part of the turn it off. Exactly. It's just like, they did not. What? Good. No, she did. You know, but it's, it's, it's, uh, it's my little eye secret pleasure. We have, um, our production company, higher ground. Yes. A lot of people think that it's called presidential and we're going to do documentaries and we just came out with unscripted, uh, uh, later dateers where we, oh, that's interesting. I'm like that. Yeah. Yeah. So we are. It's a show that, um, couples, uh, find, finds love matches for aspirational people over 50 people who look like us. Yeah. You know, who are looking for love and, you know, it's, uh, got this great, um,

58:31dating coach, this young woman, Logan, Yuri, and you just sort of go along that journey. Um, we, we are working. I'm not trying to pump the show, but I'm just saying that people didn't expect us to be doing unscripted. Right. But it's like, well, that's my taste. Right? I mean, I, I love those kind of shows where it's just regular people. I think that maybe that's the sociologist in me that I love watching regular, human connection, real interaction, although my brother says that unscripted isn't real, you know, that real housewives ain't real. They're acting and we don't even care. We don't care. It's good TV. The, the, the, the most intellectual women that I know, my sister, my wife, my daughter, now you all watch this stuff. And I am shocked. Well, I always say, you know, the NBA is like the

59:31real, you know, that's reality. But that's reality TV now. But it's still drama. There's a lot of drama. But it's a lot of drama. Yeah. This is real to these very real situations. I think people manufacture beef. Well, you don't know. They manufacture. It's produced so you can have an actual beginning, middle and end. It has to have some kind of structure. Otherwise, it's just chaos. So, but at the end of the day, those are real issues. It feels like chaos. I feel like there is chaos. Because there's chaos and friendship. There's, there's chaos in life. Like there, there's, there's, exactly. So it, what's your favorite franchise? My favorite, all kind of you watch a little bit of all of them. I'm talking a little love and hip hop. Oh, I do. Mama D. Oh, yeah. Because I know my DNA. Everybody knows about my DNA. They should do. If you don't have one in your family,

1:00:36you got a lot of money. You, you, you are a woman. You just not. Come on. I have a mom D in my family. I'm gonna say who would. But I'm like that. I tell my husband. I was like, you watch golf. Right. I watch unscripted. Yeah. Okay. And it brings me. I don't know. It just settles me down. You get the top. And I guess the, the, the blackness in us, the call of response. Like, oh, because we were like, I would have said, I would have raised. I would have said, if that was me, you know, like talking to the TV and making up. I'm like, oh, I swear to God. Let me be at that dinner. Exactly. Exactly. I brought this on myself here. I brought on. But you made a connection because I would never thought she would say love. Well, before we, before we end up, and this has been just tremendous. And I want to thank you.

1:01:36But before we end up, I'd like to, to give, uh, shante just, I want to recap the strategies. Because we, we, we hit on some good stuff. Yeah. The saying no. And the find some therapy somewhere. And your points, your many points. But, um, be okay. Um, with disappointing people. You know, um, uh, practice that disappointment and do the work of feeling good about yourself. And that, that was the one that really stood out to me is, you're not just going to automatically feel help happy. Once you say no, you got to keep working. But, you know, and there will, as I've discovered, there will be backlash. Yeah. Until you're no. Yeah. You know. But, but like you said, the guilt that comes with, because you've been saying, yes, one of the right things. That's right. But, but both of you all said, but after you learn to say no, you realize the world

1:02:40keeps, yeah. Absolutely. So, so once you feel, start to feel comfortable saying no, things are going to re, uh, reconfigure. And then finally, and this is just on my, my mental list of the things that I thought were really good outside of, get, get your men to go ahead and get in therapy was the, um, I liked your, the, the re, rejiggering your neurons in your brain. You got to practice different messages to yourself. Yeah. Because we have been raised with a different set of messages. And that gets imprinted in you in some real ways, just like trauma and pain. All of that is in our systems. Right. And it becomes a loop, a negative loop that we can't get out of. And I think for me, I'm trying to recognize that what keeps me from my own piece sometimes is me. Yeah. Most of us, most of us, it's, it's me practicing, uh, old messages. And so, knowing that I have to

1:03:48affirmatively work at telling myself different things is, it's a real practice at 61 years old to reshape the way that I operate in the world has to be mindful, intentional, and, um, and, and, and done frequently. Yeah. It takes work. It just doesn't go. Oh, I did it today. That's right. That's right. No, some days are easier than others. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Tarraji, thank you. Thank you so much. You are amazing. I love you. I'm so proud of you. Thank you. You are doing it. Um, and just know you got two fans, a whole Airbnb full of fans of folks who are rooting for you every single step of the way. Yeah.

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