‘Your City Could Be Better’: DC’s Plan To Hold Federal Agents Accountable — Presented By City Cast Denver

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This is your city could be better because it could be.

I'm David Floss.

If you love your city and still complain about it, you're in the right place.

My name is Jacobi Cochran and I'm the host of CityCast Chicago.

This week I'm filling in for CityCast CEO David Plott's, but we're still headed to his

hometown of Washington DC.

Last week DC Council passed emergency legislation requiring local police to release bodycam footage

of incidents involving federal forces they patrol with and to collect the names of federal

officers who make arrests.

It's a big shift in their local policy partially motivated by the fact that local cops, that's

the metropolitan police department have essentially damaged their reputation by patrolling with

the feds.

I'm here to talk about all of this with Michael Schaefer, co-host and executive editor

of CityCast DC.

Mike, welcome to your city could be better.

Hey Jacobi, how's it going?

I'm doing well, man.

I'm glad to make time to be here with you today.

Can you tell me more about what's in these two bills and how they ended up before the

council?

I know it has been a long saga dealing with the feds over the last, you know, what is

the eight months?

Right.

So what's in the bills is like you said, one of them says that if the local cops, the

Metropolitan Police Department, MPD, if they are with federal agents and the federal agents

do a number of things that trigger the release of bodycam footage that is used deadly

force, use violence, et cetera, the local police will release that footage in the same

way as if it was one of their own people doing it.

And the other thing is if the local cops are with federal agents and the federal agents

engage in violence or do some kind of arrest action, they will release the names as they

would in an ordinary case when it was a city cop.

The backstory here, as you know, is the last summer the president described DC as a crime

written hellhole order to take over of the local police force, which under the law, because

DC is not a state and it's not sovereign in the same way under the law, they can do that.

And even after that ended, there has been a sort of glut of federal forces on our streets.

This is true in a lot of big cities.

We've experienced the same rhetoric, the same attacks, the same spate of federal agents.

We've seen kidnapings, our neighborhoods, tear gas, right?

This scene has played out time and time again across the country.

And again, these feds are allowed to do things that in most big cities, not only about

Chicago, but I suspect so the local government has forbidden its own police force from doing

or they don't have to do things that local government requires its police force to do.

Like they can wear masks, our cops can't wear masks.

That kind of thing.

So the city in Washington, unlike any other city, it kind of has a particularly bad hand

to play.

So the mayor of Washington has had to play nice with Trump because she is trying to hold

on to what limited democracy we have now.

She had a lousy set of hands.

She suggested repealing sanctuary city policies.

She's downplayed that.

Yep.

She's pushed back against these bills.

Yep.

And she has decided that the way to keep things from getting worse is to give on a bunch

of things.

They tore up the Black Lives Matter mural in the middle of 16th Street by the White House

because the Trump people didn't like it.

They were claiming that the murals on the street are dangerous for driving, but we know

that one the real reason.

Right.

So I kind of feel for her.

She's in a tough spot.

But in this case, we have a unanimous majority in the DC council who voted for these bills.

Despite the mayors being against them, she says, well, that's up to Congress to legislate

how federal forces behave.

That is surely true.

But the bill wasn't actually about what federal agencies do it was what the city cops do

with their body can't footage.

That was her out loud argument.

We know that the real thinking was we don't want to give these people cause to come in

and take away home rule to come in and actually take over day to day government of the city

that is a very blue city.

So in this case, though, the council which has a bunch of difference of opinion on a lot

of law enforcement questions is unanimous.

And I think for very good reason, like whatever you think about what the rules of engagement

between police and communities should be and whatever you think about what role law

enforcement ought to have in the enforcement of immigration laws, Washington and a lot

of big cities in the country have done a lot, a lot of work to try to rebuild trust

between their police and their communities.

Washington's police department is still a police department and there's all kinds of historic

issues of trust.

But it's pretty good police department as these things go.

This is not some Ferguson, Missouri, you know, shake everybody down kind of a force.

And they feel like they've done a lot of work to try to keep it that way.

The fact that the mayor has permitted under duress local police to go around town with

some of the federal agencies, they think has damaged that a lot who local cops that I've

talked to view as a bunch of Yahoo's who have no training like they do and who are a lesser

law enforcement agency than they are.

Yeah.

The collaboration between federal forces and law enforcement has clearly caused tension

in Chicago and other cities, especially with these recent ICE operations around the

country we've seen how has that played out in DC, this collaboration between the two

because we have concerns that if police are there being sent whether by the governor

or the city to sort of protect protesters, they end up, you know, getting allegations

of abuse against protesters themselves.

And so we have major questions about the relationship between our local police and federal

agents during these operations.

What does that look like in your city?

I mean, it's like there's a whole alphabet soup of different federal agencies that are

out patrol.

There's Homeland Security has its own thing, there's ICE, FBI has some people that we've

just learned that the entire class of people of rookies just getting out of the FBI academy

in Guantaco is being sent up here to do street patrols, you know, who really doesn't like

that, the FBI because these guys think of themselves as we're not flat foot street

cops and we're not trained for that.

And here, here we are.

The fear on the part of everybody, the fear on the part of the local police is that, you

know, on one of these days in DC where it's like 103 degrees in the summer and like someone

mouths off and someone does something stupid and someone else does something stupid that

our police are fairly well trained to deescalate.

But that is not part of the training for a lot of these federal agencies.

They're not trained in chaotic situations, they certainly don't come from or frequently

work in the communities they're being policed.

So the worry is that we're not one of these feds just up and get someone killed and that

it will then damage, I mean, in addition to the tragedy of that, that it'll then damage

the city's own ability to police itself sort of going forward.

I mean, in our city, we have a deep history of police abuse, police torture, police murder,

there was a police involved shooting just a few days ago from the time we're recording

this as someone who lives in DC, what's your sense of how people feel about local police

right now?

Do they trust them?

And I really mean that sort of across the city.

I mean, look, I think it's a police department and that brings with it all kinds of historic

and ongoing issues.

As police departments go, I think ours is pretty good.

We haven't had a lot of horrific incidents that enrage communities that we've had some.

Our police department has a higher percentage of black officers than the city population

in general.

It's about a quarter of women.

None of these are dispositive, but this is the result of some work and their training

and their codes of conduct are the result of some work.

So I think even people who are a favor of more aggressive policing than a lot of the council

would be, don't want to see that work undone by the behavior of the feds that they have

agreed to walk around town with.

And one of the ways they think they will sort of create some distance is to release body

cam footage that would make clear who did what in these circumstances.

And maybe it may clear that some of the cops who are going around with the feds are

not behaving in a way that's either honorable or composing with the wishes of the citizens

of the city.

Yeah.

I know there's some newly released body cam footage I saw from NBC that really highlights

this sense of people feeling betrayed by DC police.

Are you saying going backwards on some of these, some of their initiatives?

This was from last spring when local police and federal officers took over the US Institute

of Peace.

Can you tell me more about what happened there?

All right.

So the US Institute of Peace is a aggressionally mandated organization that hosts, apparently

international negotiations, Trump went in and decided he was going to fire everybody.

There was some question about whether that was legal, the people he was firing, said we're

not leaving.

This is, you know, this is a quasi independent thing.

This is a very common pattern.

They refused to leave the building.

The doge people showed up wanted to get in the building.

And the local police came along.

The local police, you know, it was not clear whether these people who wanted to get in

had the right to.

This was still being hashed out in court.

But the local police basically acted on behalf of the doge people and, you know, there's

video of them picking the locks and there's video of them saying to the Institute of Peace

existing leadership, oh, you know, we're here to help you.

When in fact, it was clear from the video that they had been coordinating with the doge

people about how to get in.

It's not quite the same as their behavior out patrolling with ice because there was

no ice.

The Metropolitan Police Department was the only law enforcement there.

But in that case, the cops buttied up to the representatives of the Trump administration.

It's not clear to me from those videos whether that was out of agreement with Trump policies

or out of a, they thought that's what they were supposed to be doing.

It was a mess.

But it was a pretty dishonorable behavior by the police.

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Hi CityCast listeners.

This is David Plots.

I'm the CEO of CityCast, but I also have another job on one of the hosts of the political

Gap Fest, Slates Politics Podcast.

Every week I get on Mike with my co-host Emily Baselon and John Dickerson, and we talk

about politics and a lot more about other things that we care about.

The Gap Fest has been going for more than 20 years because the three of us love talking

to each other, and we have an amazing community of listeners.

If you like the open-hearted, curious way CityCast approaches cities, I think you'll like

the political Gap Fest too.

Stream it on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast.

Let's talk about body cameras some more.

What are the current rules for MPD when it comes to the use of body cameras and the release

of footage after instances of daily force?

So it's a fairly transparent system.

I gather this is pretty standard in places that have some kind of transparency.

If there is a number of kind of triggering things, including the use of deadly force,

they have to within five days release the body cam video.

And then I, as a citizen, have the right to go get anybody cam footage of myself that

may have been recorded in an encounter with police, even if it was a totally anodine kind

of interaction.

Five days is kind of blown my mind, Chicago.

It's 60 and that goes through a civilian board and it's a much longer process, could be

within 90 days or even longer.

And the argument against it always is that body cam footage doesn't tell the whole story

true.

And it can be, it can rile up emotions at the perilous times, true.

But you know, where in a moment where there's a lot of evidence out there and it's journalists,

you know, I think we should always want more, more information out there for people.

And there's plenty of stuff that can already rile people up.

You know, if it's a public confrontation in a public place, there's probably someone

with their cell phone camera out already.

The body cam footage from the cops is just one more input.

And I think it's a good input.

Yeah.

We've seen in our city, I mean, I have a ton of skepticism around the broad claims of

what the potential body cams is, but we have direct example in our city of how it has

led to action in our city, not only mobilizing community members, it's led to government officials

being pushed out.

It's led to police chiefs being pushed out.

We've seen Marty Martinez shot five times and federal agents lie about what took place

there.

You know, luckily, body cam footage did ultimately come out that ultimately dispelled

that that narrative after a judge allowed it to be released.

There was so video Villegas Gonzalez, who was shot and killed out in Franklin Park.

And again, once body cam footage came out, it pushed back against the narrative that

federal agents were spinning.

But to your point, do I think it has led to stemming police abuse in our city?

The data pushes back against that.

We have ongoing concerns about changing policy around police being allowed to turn their

body cam footage off directly after an incident when when working with a supervisor.

And so there are going to be these questions, but I want to know how successful do you

think body cameras have actually been an increasing transparency and accountability?

I guess I would just say, look at who's against the release of body cam footage, particularly

at the case of the feds.

Why do they want their behavior to not be public?

And why should any citizen want any piece of data that's gathered by the government that

is not private?

And there are various like privacy exceptions to the releases.

Why would any citizen want any incident like that, not to be made public?

I don't have any illusion that it provides a perfect record of exactly what was happening,

but I think it's better than not having it.

Going back to these bills, what's the timeline for these changes taking effect?

Yeah.

So it's interesting.

They they introduced it as so-called emergency legislation, which which means it sort

of moves a little bit faster through the council.

People always get excited by that name because they think it means there's an emergency,

but it's just a it's a technical term for that.

But one of the things that means is in DC, all of the laws here can be vetoed by Congress

and 30 days after passage for Congress to disapprove them.

Emergency legislation can be an exception.

So they're trying to push it in without giving the Congress run by Trump allies a chance

to whack it.

Thinking about these emergency orders that have been passed through the council, I'm thinking

back to 2023 when a public safety emergency bill was put through that was a water down

version, but was essentially supported by the mayor.

This one that the mayor didn't support, how has this tightrope that the mayor had walked

over the last few years impacted their legacy in the city and also has they had any impact

do you think when their decision to not run for a fourth term?

I look the mayor of Washington is a kind of a centrist in her in her orientation.

And she has for a lot of her term really, but it has with a more progressive block in

the council.

After COVID, crime in Washington spiked as it did in many other cities that took a little

longer to come back down, although it now has and there was a move in the council to push

through some changes that undid some of the 2020 reforms.

Bowser has I think kind of won her fight with the progressive block in the council.

I think the spike in crime and the sense that there were people in the council who kind

of carried themselves with an attitude that if you're complaining about the safety in

your neighborhood, you're a Karen.

That didn't help the progressive block, particularly since the sort of angriest neighborhoods

about this bike and crime were working class black neighborhoods.

So look, there is always going to be a tension in a city like Washington, which where they

it has very poor neighborhoods and it has a lot, a lot, a lot of college graduates.

And it sort of scrambles the politics a little bit because some of the most progressive

people in local politics are themselves like their base is the college graduates, not

the sort of historic black communities.

So you know, Bowser has never been super popular, but she's always gotten 50% plus one.

And like serving three terms ain't nothing, particularly when those terms include like Trump

COVID and Trump again.

How else are people in your city dealing with the heavy federal law enforcement presence

and the tensions with, you know, between local and federal agents?

I think the incidents have tamped down.

There was a real surge of like horrific ice arrests when, you know, people were being

dragged out of contractor vans and so on.

And a lot of people taping it from the sidewalk, the forces that Trump brought in the National

Guard, a lot of them are kind of in the tourist areas and they look kind of bored.

And they're, you know, a bunch of very young people from red states who've never been

here before.

And I remember being at the, like right when it first started, I spent a day just going

around town looking at them and interviewing and so on.

And I was at the Lincoln Memorial and it was, it was full of National Guard, which is like,

if you're from BC, like, yeah, I'm going to get mugged at the Lincoln Memorial, right?

There's no matter good times, bad times, it's not a, it's not a place that pickpockets

hang up.

And of course, like these kids wanted to be there because they weren't playing tourist.

And I don't blame them.

Like if I was a like 19 year old National Guard person and they were like, you got to go

to DC for six weeks, I would go see the Lincoln Memorial too.

But the point is just to say it's, it is, it has chilled.

There's a, I think people are offended on a sort of visceral level that listen, this

is our city.

We are American citizens.

We should have the right to decide how our city is being policed, where it's being policed,

and the people doing the policing should answer to us as voters.

And because of DC's unique status, that is particularly untrue here.

And I think that upsets people on a sort of philosophical level, but there's been less

going on on the streets that upsets people on a practical level in the last, I don't

know, five months.

What do you think listeners can take away from this conversation today to make their own

cities better?

Well, I think that this question of like what cities do, what local communities do when

the feds engage in law enforcement has taken on a whole new meaning in the Trump era.

And you know, it puts local authorities in a bind, no matter where.

And the ones in DC have a harder time with that bind because of their legal status.

But are the local police in a regular city out there on behalf of the citizens?

Are they there as law enforcement alongside the feds?

What are they doing there?

And how will the actions of the feds affect them, it's a question for all communities.

And you know, we've had enough trouble in this country policing ourselves.

This adds a further wrinkle of complication.

And it's one that I think a lot of local governments probably are and certainly need to think

about like how are we going to protect our own ability to do the job from the consequences

of behavior of people who don't answer us.

Okay, let's move on to this week's world on the street segment.

And it's all about etiquette when your own public transit.

Mike, we are always having this conversation in Chicago about, you know, if people are

smoking on a train, eating on a train, right, playing loud music.

And so I want to get your thoughts on that last one in particular because I imagine my

opinions are a little different than others.

I know how you feel when people are planning music on a train out loud.

Is that something that's accepted in DC some people look down on all right.

So in Washington DC, our Metro is a very weird silent place.

And you know, it was built in the 60s at the time.

The idea was the New York subway was a hellhole.

I don't agree with that.

But that's what they thought.

And they literally the architecture and everything was designed to sort of quiet human behavior.

No people out to avoid even like measured how far the platforms were from the walls.

That was how far a graffiti can could spray up to avoid chaos.

And it worked.

So the sort of basic code of behavior in DC Metro subways is as of a rather quiet chill kind

of behavior.

Buses are a little bit more rowdy.

That's interesting because because most of ours is like we have some lines that run

underground, but so much of ours are outside elevated.

It's just a part of the sort of city sounds and so it feels like a much more chaotic experience

just being on the platform, even if you're up there by yourself because maybe in the middle

of a neighborhood or in the middle of downtown, whatever the case may be.

So it's interesting hearing you all describe that way.

But either way, like when you walk into a bus or in a metro, there's a sign that says,

you know, no smoking, no eating, no drinking, no loud music.

And that is the way I see it, like there's a code, right?

There's both like the legal code.

Like if you bought a ticket, you agreed to these rules and you should live them.

And there's also sort of a, you know, the code of society.

And I think with the loud music, this is obviously like not a thing that you would want

to sick your police on.

If you are running a public transit agency, you know, it's not going to be your highest

priority.

If it is, you're either very lucky or very dumb.

But I do think, I think right now by 2026, in an age of ubiquitous earbuds, if you

see someone who is like playing their phone really loud on this subway, you kind of know

this is a person who's got some issues with boundaries.

I don't think they're trying to entertain the world or anything like that.

I think it's like a thing that we recognize as like socially unusual norm breaking behavior.

And I think it is human nature when you see someone who is engaging in a boundary shattering

behavior to wonder like, what other boundaries might this person shatter?

You know, and then you start thinking about your physical safety and safety of the space

here.

And so these may be irrational, these may be irrational thoughts that they are crosses

my mind.

I'm listening to your perspective for me to like not to ignore how other people experience

that moment.

But 90% of the time I've experienced loud music on the train.

I have overwhelmingly enjoyed the music that's been played.

The mix of soul music, rap music, R&B.

It makes me wonder if the city should just invest in putting a playlist on the train that

people can enjoy while they're writing.

And if that might be a solution to the experience, I think people are still going to to play

loud music.

I'm more about mine in my business and I usually let people be, but again, I have had so

many experiences where I have been sitting there dancing to the music.

I have paused my own music to listen to.

Some people still got a full radio out there when they own the train.

And so I agree with you.

I do, you know, I won't be completely dismissive right there are some thoughts around like,

why are you doing this?

Why aren't you even got like no quarter hair falls on you?

Like, why don't you do it?

Like, if you like it so much.

Why don't I play music on the train?

Yeah, why don't you play loud music?

You probably got good taste.

I do, but I'm going to write into my own ears.

I pay attention to my headphones.

But that's what I mean is like, why don't you want to blow into everyone else's ears?

Share the joy.

Mostly because I'm selfish.

I want to keep my playlist to myself.

I like to gatekeep the music that I'm listening to.

And I appreciate when there is that rare experience with someone

isn't gatekeeping where they are breaking that norm.

I understand it disrupts people's commute and does make some people wonder how far

but again, more times than not, it's one person or even a group of people who seem to

be to themselves and more or less are breaking the norm to break the monotony of whatever

they are day to day experience is and is more times than not, it doesn't seem to be

concerning the people around them.

It's actually very dismissive of the people around them versus sort of a larger expression

of crossing those boundaries.

But I understand it's not always the case.

I think you are statistically right about more often than not.

But also like, I don't know, like you come in a place that says no eating, you should

eat.

I know sometimes you've got to have some hungry emergency, I'd be hungry on the train.

But you know, you're like, I don't know, I just feel like you should follow rules unless

the rules are like unjust in which case you should consciously and intentionally break

them and work to have them changed.

I hear that last part.

It's a forever debate on public etiquette on the transit system.

I appreciate you making time today both of our first times on your city could be better.

Mike Schaffer is the co-host and executive editor of CityCas DC.

Thank you for having me, Jacobi.

Listen to Mike and his team on the CityCas DC podcast.

You can find it wherever you get your podcast.

You can also find CityCas Chicago where you're going to find me and our entire team every

week day morning.

That's all for today's episode of your city could be better.

I'm Jacobi Cochran.

Our producers were Lizzie Goldsmith, Priyanka Tillve, Simone Alicea, Annie Reese and Mike

Schaffer.

Our music is by Carl Christensen.

If you're enjoying the show, please share us with your friends and family, rate and leave

a review wherever you get your podcast.

David Plots will be back in the host chair next week with another conversation about how

your city could be better.

Peace.