1156: BEST OF SHOW: Susan Brunstrum: Practical Advice for Project Management

Welcome to a well-designed business.

My name is Luanne Igarra and I'm so glad you found this podcast.

Together with my husband Vince and our partner Bill, we have grown our company Windowworks

from the ground up.

So I know and I understand the challenges you face in running your interior design business.

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Hello and welcome back to another episode of a well-designed business.

I have a super show for you today.

Jam packed with tons of advice surrounding best practices for project management.

Susan Brunstrom, principal of Sweet Peas Design, is with me today.

Sweet Peas Design is an award-winning full service interior design studio located in Illinois

with clients on the North Shore, Chicago, and beyond.

They are known for their livable luck style, the little black dress of interior design.

Susan's firm in addition to herself includes two senior interior designers, one senior architectural associate

and associate designer and the finance manager.

Before she started her firm 12 years ago, Susan ran her own marketing communications firm

for seven years.

Susan is a board member for the Design Trust Limited, an exclusive New York-based think tank

of interior designers selected from across the country.

We are lucky to have her here on the show, as you will learn for yourself in just a few

minutes.

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Hi Susan, thank you for joining me on a well-designed business today.

Thank you Luanne.

I'm so excited to be here and share whatever information that I can with your audience.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to our interview and I have been since we arranged it a few

weeks ago.

The reason for it is because particularly in the recent weeks, many interior designers

have been emailing me, Facebooking me, and different things reaching out and asking

me to have more programs on the financial end of interior design.

And you and your firm are particularly qualified to answer and talk to all of us about this.

You have a pretty big firm there in Chicago.

Your signature line is livable luxe and the tagline that follows it is the little black

dress of interior design.

So you know, those things are certainly, I know they have meaning to you.

I understand the meaning behind it, but to me what they say is this is a business person.

This is a person who thinks about what she does, how she does it, and how she presents

herself.

So we're going to concentrate, thankfully, because you're so skilled at it, on the financial

end of your business today, even though I'm well aware of the many interior design awards

that your firm has earned and your successes in the actual process of interior design.

But thank you for agreeing to let me sort of sidestep all of those terrific, you know,

accomplishes of yours and ask you to share your expertise in this particular area.

So starting off, one of the things that I notice that designer struggle with is that

they often will have a client at a first meeting or something or one of the early meetings

truthfully and usually before the letter of agreement is signed.

They want a ballpark.

They want to know what does a designer think a project or a scope is going to cost.

And I noticed that a lot of designer struggle with how to do that.

And I understand that you have developed a system where you really break down projects

into six phases.

And that is a tool for you for many parts of the business, but also as a benchmark for

ballparking.

Would you tell us a little bit about that?

Sure, absolutely.

We actually have two letter of agreement, Luanne.

One is on an hourly fee basis and one is on a project fee basis.

And it's a conundrum in this industry, quite frankly, some interior designers are hourly

based only, others are fee based only, others like our firm use a combination based on the

size and scope of the project and what is appropriate for it.

So if we are on a project fee basis, we have an Excel spreadsheet that breaks down the

six phases of our business and how we work through a project with a client.

And I actually determine the number of hours that that project needs by phase.

And that then rolls up to the total hours needed for that project.

Now, having said that, there's a back door to that because, you know, from a client

perspective, if you're paying a project fee at times, you can, how do I want to say

this?

I'll take advantage of you, but they feel as though you're at their back in call because

they've paid a project fee versus hourly, they're a little bit more cognizant of your time.

A fair time with what you mean to say.

Yes, excuse me.

Yes, they're a clock ticking.

Yes.

So on a project fee basis, you do, if that's how you structure your business or that's

how you're structuring that particular project, you do need to have a clause in there that

states if the project scope changes or the project goes is looking like it's going beyond

the hours that you had initially agreed to, that there is a way for you to get compensated

for additional work.

If not, you're putting yourself in too tight of a box and often you're going to lose

money versus be, versus be financially sound on that project.

Right.

What I'm explaining is that if you have given somebody a project fee for whatever the

scope is, you have already taken it apart, like you're not just throwing it out there.

You've done a lot of research, you compare other projects and you break it into six phases

and literally add up like this project will take 20 hours or 200 hours and then you rather

than in your letter of agreement, rather than just say, here's your project fee and that

information is, you know, your back, you know, privy information, you put it out there

and you say, I have estimated that this project will be 200 hours, 20 hours and that's what

this project fee agreement is for.

So when it goes over, you're completely able to say, you know, hey, we're moving on to

a new agreement now.

It might be understanding you correctly.

You are.

Very transparent.

I actually bring the Excel sheet that shows how I calculated the hours and what the hours

are for.

So we get down to, for example, our second phase is material selections and specifications.

Do me a favor.

Back up.

Why don't you just use for us the six phases first and then you can talk about the different

ones within it.

Okay.

So our first phase is architectural schematics and floor plans.

Our second phase is material selections and specifications.

Our third phase is design development.

So that's color palettes, furnishings, rugs, lighting, that type of thing.

Our fourth phase is construction and or renovation.

Our fifth phase is purchasing and expediting and our sixth phase is delivery and installation,

including accessories.

So that's how we break a project apart.

Some projects require all six phases, some projects don't.

If we're being brought in just for furnishings, then we don't need all six phases.

But I'd still like to take the client down the road and have them understand our six phases.

Simply because often when you start with a client, maybe the initial project isn't all

that you do for them.

And so if they have a good understanding of what your capabilities are, they may not need

you for all six phases immediately, but they may need you down the line for that.

For example, they may come to you and say, I have a kitchen renovation.

In that case, we may not do hardly any design window treatments.

We may not do any furniture in that breakfast room.

We're really concentrating on the kitchen renovation.

In another case, we may be called into furnish, a living room, a dining room, the main floor

of a home or the whole house.

The house may already be in great shape, the bones of it, and we're not needing to do

any renovation or construction.

So that's why we have the six phases to walk the client through that.

We do have kind of a, I guess, a breakdown in Excel sheet that I do use that we get to

the nitty-gritty.

If we have, for example, cabinet hardware that we're selecting in a newly constructed

home, I list the rooms and that we need cabinet hardware for and the amount of time it will

take for us to do that or plumbing fixtures by room.

If we are doing the architectural schematics work or floor plans, I list by room how many

plans that we're going to give the client and then how many hours that's going to take.

People don't want pie in the sky numbers, they want actual.

They want to see how you got to your number, it makes you more credible and trustworthy.

At the end of the day, that's what's very important to me.

I want our clients to know that this is a collaborative relationship.

I need information from them and to be upfront and truthful about that and they need information

from me and they want me to be upfront and truthful about the information I'm giving

to them and I think this sets the stage.

I don't like surprises and I don't like the client to have surprises so I'd rather go

through all of this information at our letter of agreement meeting and review all the details

and I'm a real stickler about that, Luan.

I will not work with a client a couple or partners without meeting both of them and having

them both be present for our letter of agreement meeting.

It's funny because that at first blush sounds like almost to me that that would be obvious

but I guess that it's probably not obvious always but it's critical because interior design

is a, it can be an expensive project but it's an emotional project and I think that's

where in the combination of finances mixed with emotion makes it a hot button issue between

partners and therefore I think it's very smart on your part that you insist that they're

both in the meeting so that there's an agreement on what the budget is and not only that but

what the scope of the project is.

You know because we've all been there where somebody you know your part way through part

of a design plan or whatever and you know the husband's like wait we're taking the carpet

out and the wife's like well yeah he's like no we're not and you're like yeah you are

buddy.

Carpet's coming out right?

Correct.

Correct.

You've got to get agreement you know with the clients from the beginning on every aspect

of it.

So yeah no I like the phases and you have spent a good deal of time I can see and here

in estimating the hours based on the phase that it is and the scope of what the individual

project is but you also use this in you do you use it in your your initial comfort you

know consultation to budget a project for a client I'm not talking about and I know specific

you're going to once you have you know you're going to draft a letter of agreement you're

literally saying okay this living room this phase three hours ten hours but do you use

it I understood you use it to budget a project as well don't you?

So a couple of things I only utilize that form if it's a project fee and typically we only

we only work on a project fee basis if the project is exceptionally well defined so it's

a kitchen renovation or got it's a bathroom renovation it is new construction and it really

has more to deal with the material selections the architectural piece of it and or the construction

and renovation.

I don't typically use a project fee for the furnishings for the furnishings color palette and you

know accessorizing and that because there's too many variables in the project and often the

client doesn't know exactly exactly what they want and we're looking into the possibilities

so a project fee is absolutely wonderful if your parameters are tight and it assumes that the

project will be accomplished in the manner that it's set forth there's not a lot of room for if

this then that okay if there's just not because otherwise if you want to run a financially sound

business you're going to lose money okay okay it only works in that in that manner so that's how

I describe the different options to a client in hourly fee allows us to be more flexible and allows

the client to determine priorities and change priorities as the project progresses. For example

hourly fee is great for that client that comes in and says you know Susan I'd really like you

to work on our living room and dining room and foyer we're thinking we may want to keep our dining

room table but we may need new chairs and I don't like the pink color and we may want wallpaper

and oh what do you think about changing the chandelier and I think we need a new carpet over here

and I want window treatments in the living room and we may need a new foyer chandelier they don't

really know exactly what they want yeah the details are all loose and they're probably very much

dependent on well if the chandelier does change then maybe the wallpaper has to too but if it

doesn't then it then that doesn't or something like that right so right so you're bringing that

expertise they're paying you for that expertise to say if we change this we don't do that if we do

this we don't do that so an hourly fee is much better in that manner because you have the flexibility

to move the project as it needs to move accordingly as you're gathering information and getting

pricing and making decisions okay that makes sense so I look at it I look at it when I go out on

an initial consultation and by the way we charge for our initial consultation you do if you're not

doing that shame on you shame on you she said it not me we're taking time away from your existing

clients who are paying you good money to go out and meet with a prospective client that you don't

know you're going to get work from now let me ask you something you're obviously very

adamant about this is there is the reason that you're so adamant and stressing it because you find

that a lot of your colleagues don't do this correct and the the problem is that you feel what they're

not standing in their space they don't feel they've they've earned it they're afraid what do you

think the obstacles are what what are people saying in their head that we need them to understand let

it get get that out of there if you don't charge for your time initially what is that saying about

you that you don't value your business enough to charge for it and it also sets up the premise that

maybe your your procedures and and and in your business isn't as tight as it should be would you

go meet a lawyer and not get and have the lawyer not charge you absolutely not they are paying for

your time and expertise and your knowledge that's the value that you bring and on that initial

consultation at least I know I give a lot of great information that's my chance to

meet the client ask questions listen to the answers and get a real sense of that client and

is this someone I want to work with just as much as they are doing the same thing to me I mean

that whole feeling this this is the opportunity of where you're really assessing the client and for

me we look at we look at three areas when when we're contemplating a client relationship and

that is trust respect and communication and you need to be able to assess that pretty quickly on

that first initial consultation right if you have the before you expect to be able to achieve

character this criteria in the relationship absolutely absolutely so so I think it's of utmost

importance and I'm giving a lot of great ideas at that first consultation because you you actually

have to you have to show them that you're creative you have to show them that you're talented

that you can problem solve that you can think through things differently than they can that's

why they're hiring you it's interesting because I remember years ago I referred one of our clients

to an interior designer in the area because she wanted you know more full scale work in addition

to just window treatments and it was funny because I remember her this is going to be 15 years ago

I remember her coming back to me and saying you know I'm really having a hard time closing down

this client that you refer to me and I was like what's going on and she said well the thing is

you know I went out for for the initial meeting and I brought my portfolio but they kept

wanting me to give them ideas on what I thought they should do in the the living room the great

room area that they wanted to address in other words you know she was like they just kept trying

to get me to say with you know what I moved this in the kitchen and what I put this there and

what would I do and she goes and she said and the thing is those are my ideas and they kept saying

well if you can't really express to us some of your ideas for the space how will we know if we

should hire you and she said to me I'm showing them my portfolio and it was funny because I

remember just staring at her thinking well if you just gave them a couple of ideas they would have

been impressed and maybe they would have been fine and I didn't come it from a standpoint of

experience or knowledge from what you guys do but you know you're saying exactly that charge for

so that when you're there you're earning your money you're earning your your time is you know

accounted for but share enough and and share quality things so that they can also assess that you

are the the real deal absolutely the other thing that we do is we actually if they if the client

if it's a mutual agreement to proceed and I put a letter of agreement together and the client

hires us I apply that five hundred dollars and give them that time pro bono oh that's nice of you

as a gift yes do they know that going in or do you surprise it with them with it no they know

that going in okay okay they know that going in okay so they're they're taking a risk but they're

not taking a huge risk they they're calling you and spending the time to have the meeting they're

probably halfway on the way to hiring you absolutely okay I like that yeah and in today's world

they've already vetted you before you've walked in that's the thing with the internet they

probably know you know what your social security number is before they even get there let alone

that what your work is like absolutely I mean I don't even bring a portfolio with me I don't even

bring a used to bring my iPad with a video if he used to bring you know samples of our work I don't

bring any of that anymore I'm excited for we walk in the door yeah yeah now you said we're

going to go back up again to some more specifics on the billing but before we do that you said

something in this last little conversation here that I wanted to talk about you described how in

that first meeting in the home you are assessing them for your three criteria of trust respect

and communication as much as you believe and understand that they're assessing you for your

talents and other qualities what tell me about what happens when what is a red flag and what

happens what makes you say uh oh I maybe don't want to pursue this you know couple or this person

as clients what what what what what I know that your criteria is those three things but tell me what

happens and how do you handle it and because I think the easy ones are easy everybody knows how to

go on a consultation everybody knows that when you know you love the people and you think they're

amazing and you love the project and you love the possibilities that's easy but what's the hard part

so you have to love two out of three things their stuff them or their home okay if you don't

like any of those three not the client for you so you have to be excited about the individuals are

they gonna be are they are they do they fit your firm do they fit the way you know the type of

people that you like to work with and that's different for all of us and what makes and what makes

them a great fit do you like their home do you want do you do you see that you can do wonderful

things in that home and or three do you like their stuff because we always start with

their stuff it's very rare that you get a naked home right everybody has belongings and they

start with those and so you have to you have to like two out of those three things is one area

that like one little criteria that I look at the other thing is I really pay attention and listen

to the client I ask questions that gets them talking not just about their home but about themselves

so I get a better feeling of of how they make decisions um why they make decisions where they're

adding their life why are the chain why are they bringing us in to make the changes that they

want to make um just to get a better understanding of them because quite frankly other than the

purchase of a home the furnishing and or renovating the interior of your home is really your second

biggest expense and a lot of people don't realize that and the selection the mutual selection

of working with a designer and and a design firm is vastly important it's so personal

that I would rather walk away from a project that I don't feel will be a good fit and recommend

another designer than spend my time kind of beating my head against the wall if the project

goes through and it's not a wonderful experience for both of us because it should be it should be

so finding the right client that fits your business is really important and I think when people

are starting out uh in this business they're afraid to say no so they take everyone

well this is what I think somebody but if you take somebody that's wrong for you you missed the

opportunity of the next great client that's the perfect fit so you you do have to be um selective

and and and you should be selective and I say that to clients I may or potential clients

I may not be the right person for you and that's okay I'm happy to give you other people as

referrals other designers that could be you know you don't want to be everything to everyone

I agree except that I really want to just press you press back to you on it for a moment because

I have the same experience um and I remember it being a

process for lack of a better word and a coming a coming almost like a coming awake during the process

of running and owning a business where it finally was like okay you don't need every single client

out there you need the ones that are a good fit agreed 100% agreed but talk to us about

that learning curve and that process of coming into the space because it is absolutely true um

you know your first probably five to eight years in business is my guess that it's very hard

to walk away from the projects that aren't right for you and I will just say one more thing

before I let you answer the question for me my experience you know when I'm going to engage with

a client it's you know it's at it could be literally an hour and a half on the front end

and an hour and a half on the back end and three phone calls in the middle and the front in the

back end or a month apart or it could be at most a two to three four week process on the front

and then you know the back end installation I'm not in there you know in their bedroom in their

living room in their kitchen in the middle of their marriage in the middle of their relationships

you know for months and so when I have delayed the decision to just say yeah not this one walk away

it's for me the risk isn't as high because the engagement isn't as long but I believe that interior

designers need to stand in that space and recognize that way way way way way way sooner in their

career in order to be profitable so tell us a little bit about it's one thing to tell us the advice

tell us about the experience of it that tell us about really truly coming to that decision

and how you come to it and how you say to the client no not happening okay and listen I'm not

going to tell you that we haven't made our mistakes we have so let's how you learn yep we've

gotten down the road with clients you know I'd be remiss if I didn't say that we've gotten down

the road with clients and they're not they're not necessarily the right ones so I take each of

those experiences and I try to learn from that that's the point of having done that that's why you

know you have to do it so yeah right yeah what went wrong where did we take that turn where did

the relationship not get to where it needed to and why did that happen most often it occurs because

the discussion on budget has not been addressed early enough and it truly is and it's really because

many clients have never done a project that they're asking you to participate in and be part of

right so they don't really understand what the costs involve could be or are that's your job as

the designer with your years of experience to say hey you're telling me that you want to do this

kitchen for $25,000 can't do that have you looked at appliances lately you could spend that on

appliances you know so it's your job as the designer in that initial consultation to help educate

the client and have them understand a project of this nature you know could be here or here and

give a range that's not locking you in that's not saying we've agreed on a budget but do you

understand that it could be it could be to this level I'll give you a perfect example we just

are working with a couple on a master bathroom and a hall bathroom and we sat down and

went through the letter of agreement and they had some questions and they said okay well if we

budget $40,000 will that be enough for this project and I said no it won't be you have a full

gut bathroom in your in your master we're looking at moving all your plumbing around and we have your

hall bath I said it really won't be enough I said in my experience I would feel comfortable if

you told me you had 75 to $80,000 and they said okay great we'll do that but if I hadn't had that

conversation with them they would have thought they could get those bathrooms done at a lot lesser

price point and then as we started to make selections and the numbers were coming together they

wouldn't have been happy and you know it's not enough for nothing but you wouldn't have either been

because if you just said you could here's what could have easily happened with a less experienced

interior designer they could have really understood that $40,000 was too low but not had the

confidence to say that it's too low and said well let you know okay we could see and then

chase their own tail for the next several weeks trying to source products that are lower price

that get into the budget which ultimately won't get into it all the way because you're talking about

literally half the budget practically and it doesn't serve either one of you it doesn't serve

you or the client to not have the big girl conversation at the beginning right you absolutely have

to have it the other the other conversation that absolutely has to be had is timing in our world of

everybody wanting everything tomorrow practically just in time inventory I find that again

you have to educate the client as to how long a project will take and what's realistic

because you have to have that lockdown too you can't you know you have you I look we're listening to

you you're obviously clearly experienced but you have to I feel like what I'm hearing from you is

that you have evaluated you know each or most projects after the fact to say this is what went

well this is what didn't well yeah this is how long it took this is what this so that when you

go into the next one and to your point now be real about the timing you know that's it be real

about it don't say oh yeah I could do this in a month when you know it's six and don't say it's

six if it's three and don't say it's three and it is three and take six how about that totally agree

totally agree I'm gonna parlay onto something you just said after every client project we run a

client P&L I know many firms that don't do that and it's and if you don't again you should be you

shouldn't be looking at at your financials just by your categories you should be looking at them

as well by client you should be able to run a client P&L if you're an hourly or project fee as well

as you know what your what your gross revenue was what your cost of goods was you can also take a

look at how many hours were put in by your staff you should do all of that to see how profitable

that client was because you don't want to take another project on if you weren't profitable that

similar right and it's funny because we do that at window works of course the project is you know

way way way way less scope but we actually do look at the net growth you know net profit on

each project when it's done what percentage my husband and I compete with each other you know

on our net our net profit on the jobs and we calculated it at the end of the year and we

know we just you know we raise each other so but it's it is the point you can't run a business

if you don't know how much you're earning on the project and that like you said like we talk

about well we took on this sort of project and you know it costs this much money and these many

hours of labor and this that and when the next one comes along with sometimes we look at each other

and we go pass we didn't make enough money on it last time that's not our kind of job we're not

set up for that that's you know not in our wheelhouse say you know so I agree that's great advice

I love that so you and do you do that with only do you do that only with because you have a

finance man a finance manager do you do that only with the finance manager or do you incorporate

that with your other designer so that everybody learns the tool and learns the process and knows how

to evaluate I don't actually go over the numbers with my team I do that with my financial manager

but we do have a team meeting at the end of the project to talk about what went well and what

didn't go well I also take I also take all of our clients to lunch or dinner and discuss

and discuss our relationship and in what went well what didn't what would they offer as constructive

criticism because I feel we're only as good as our last client and our the last clients are the

ones that are potential refers and they're also they can also become our advocates and they want

to help you you've been in their life for a long time it's very personal as you said they become

friends with you in fact there's often that how do you how do you maintain the friendship but also

the professionalism yeah we talked about that with Marlena Tyson just a couple of weeks ago yeah

so that's you know how do you do that so I always I always take our clients to dinner and or lunch

at the end of a project and have that discussion with them and and I learn a lot and we have made

many business practice changes because of valuable input from our clients that's a significant

example that's a significant commitment to do that it is but they've made a significant commitment to

us and we've made a significant commitment to them to work together yeah so great learning tool

so you can head to us you're going to give us a specific oh well give you a specific so

one of the things that we changed about a year and a half ago in our letter of agreement is

is how we handle freight and delivery we use to build freight and delivery as a pass-through cost

and it would be built at the end of the project after we'd been built from our delivery company or

you know or you know freight company clients hated it they thought they were done pain and then

here comes that bill right they hated it so and I kept getting like I hate when I get that bill

you know and even if you layer in versus the big reveal they're still you know they still get that

so so I I started asking clients well what would work what would what would they had that

expect me to do it right what would you you know what would help that and they said why don't

you charge us a percentage that covers that covers the bill and and it's included when when we pay

the invoice for the actual product so we move to that so I charge a percentage of the product

uh for freight and delivery yeah because they would rather it be you know not necessarily

accurate to the penny than an afterthought and an after invoice they they recognize if it's a

percentage it's you know some cases might be higher some cases might be lower but it feels better

for them and it's also less painful right they pay it they pay it right when they're paying for

the item or the service and so they're great with it that has helped us tremendously

from a client relationship perspective but it's also helped us from a cash flow perspective

you're gathering the money up front and that's something that I think really needs to you really

need to take a look at your cash flow when you're making new decisions or changes for your business

another thing that we just recently did as well some firms take a deposit on everything 50%

across the board others get 100% up front I've never been able to do that until recently

what we decided again I met with clients and said you know we're trying to limit our paperwork

for you and for us and by charging a 50% deposit on everything you know if we're

getting a light fixture or scots and it's 500 dollars and I'm charging to 250 for the deposit

and then the balance and that's a lot of paperwork you know back and forth and we're trying

to streamline for that for us so again asked clients and they said why don't you come up with a

number that feels comfortable that it's comfortable for you you know and would be a number that

we could live with that we pay 100% on for most items and then others we pay a balance on so

we came up with $5,000 so any item that is or service that is $5,000 or under we get a 100% payment

okay any item that's $5,000 or more than they pay a deposit on okay and it works for you

and that's about it works for us but also it's great cash flow yeah yeah well you've got to think

of those things yeah and you know what you're I knew this was going to happen I knew you were

going to bring so much value and the conversation would be so great and here I am I didn't break for

credit so give me a second and I'm going to tell everybody about Crabbit Inc and then we're going

to cover a couple of things that you're talking about that I want to go further into hang on

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by Crabbit Inc. Okay so we're back so it's it's interesting because you were just talking about

the cash flow how the doing that new billing practice of under $5,000 you collect in full and

over $5,000 you to let you collect a 50% and then the balance on delivery so here's what you said

and this is what I want to make sure that it's clear that does create cash flow but it is

imperative then that you know that cash flow is there and it's allotted and it's accounted for

accurately because you might be collecting 100% of you know a sofa or a lamp or whatever

that you're not going to deliver for six months and you got to have that money in the checking

account because you're not you know you've you've collected all your money so that puts a very

high onus on clean clear paperwork. Oh absolutely yeah yeah and to that end I just wanted to hop

back up to the top of our discussion a little bit and just take just a few moments because I am

taking a lot of your time in but this is amazing information when we originally talked about

your two different structures for fees whether it was project or hourly what I would love

you to do is just take a few moments and describe the systems in your office that because you have

multiple designers working for you it's not like you're just accountable for yourself your own

hours in your own parts of the project so take a little bit and give us some information on how you

systemize it within your business and record keep a project in your business.

Okay we use Studio Webware okay and and we've been using it for I think about three years now

prior to that we were on QuickBooks so we do have processes and procedures to get a project

through the organization and the bigger your firm the tighter your processes need to be because

it's not just you touching all the paperwork. Right so we have a selection sheet that we utilize

that has a photo and the pricing and the information on it that goes to the client and then we have

backup paperwork it's an Excel document that we use that talks that shows the net and then

the profitability. Once a client has approved a particular item that the entire all of that

paperwork will then go down to our financial manager and our purchasing manager to be purchased

and then we then we start utilizing Studio Webware so we don't use Webware to its fullest we are

trying to integrate that in the next six months because it can handle all that front end

we just haven't haven't utilized it yet to its fullest capabilities but we're we're getting there.

Okay and how work and progress. Yeah well you know everything is right and how about everybody

accounting for their hours do you do it in real time how do you how do you guys do that on a

project. We do that on 15 minute increments and that they put my staff all puts their time into

Webware and our Webware time billing is broken down into our six phases. Okay so our my team is

required to put their time in based on the phase that they're working on so if they're working in

the material selections phase and they're selecting tile or plumbing that's where that goes if

they're working on furniture selections or fabric selections then that goes into the third phase

if my architect associate is is on CAD and drawing floor plans and architectural schematics and

that goes into phase one so we have these very specific phases that are part of the letter agreement

but that's also how how I know at the end of the project how many hours we've build or how many

hours we spent by phase right so that you can continue to adjust and tweak your future price

presentations your future budget presentations based on it it's like wait wait I keep thinking

it takes six hours for phase you know three and actually it's constantly 12 hours or whatever the

the scenario is you're evaluating it and making adjustments correct very cool very cool now

talks me for just a moment if you were a solo designer out there I mean it's you know it's

it's as imperative right I mean I mean I feel like that's the breakdown that bit maybe in in a solo

situation they feel like well it's all me I'm making all the money I'm doing all the work I don't

need to track it but it that's that's not correct is it no it's not correct at all again how do you

know if you're taking on the right clients for you and if you're profitable and if that client was

profitable in fact I think your first hire if you're a solo practitioner mine was was my financial

manager right get yourself out of the out of the financial end of it because that's often what

you're doing late at night and you're you know you put it off right yeah yeah because you're creative

and you want to get the you're excited about the project you want to solve the problem and you

want to you know you want to show that window treatment fabric and that window design and you want

to show it you know chair and fabric on it but at the end of the day you have to be profitable you

can keep growing your business exactly exactly so this is you know an insane amount of great advice

within that when within your conversation and I appreciate it and the truth is you know if neither

one of us had anything to do I know that we could go for three more hours because there's

anything I ask you that you're like I don't know that so I love that thank you but to wrap it up I

just want to touch on the other aspect of your business which has been in a philosophy of yours

that I understand that you're recently tweaking a little bit but for good reason you have a particular

background in advertising this was your career before into your design correct correct yeah yeah

so what's interesting to me is that you and I know that well it's interesting to me that despite

a successful career in advertising that you have spent most of your efforts and your dollars

in building your firm on with PR focused on PR as opposed to advertising so tell us the philosophy

behind that and and tell us why it's worked for you and tell us about the changes coming

absolutely so I have built the business on public relations because others are speaking for you

versus advertising you're promoting yourself and again this business is so personal

that having the recommendation of others it's no different than a referral right from an

existing client referring you to someone else when you see work published in a magazine

you know or you see work published in a newspaper others are doing the speaking for you when

it's public relations otherwise you're advertising yourself so we have always built our

business on PR because of that because of the collaborative nature of this business and the

referral and the advocacy of it and that is someone else advocating for you we've recently started

advertising and I'm actually quite thrilled by it and the reason that we're doing it is I personally

moved to the to the city of Chicago two years ago and my firm is up in Libertyville still

and as we are getting more and more clientele in Chicago I wanted to to kind of launch our brand

in the city and so I had very specific reasons for starting to advertise but we are advertising

locally in Chicago not nationally and that brings me to another another little

tidbit I guess of information on PR I have found you know the goal always right everybody says

oh I want to be published in a national publication in a shelter magazine I want to be in

L Decor I want to be in Arc Digest or whatever I have made a very conscientious effort in our

from a PR perspective in starting local and launching locally and really getting to know

the editors and the publishers of our local publications because that's going to drive your

business right because you're more likely to get not that designers don't have clients from out of

state and out of town and so forth but you know your bread and butter is coming from your

2535 mile radius yeah it is it absolutely is and I think everybody goes for that oh my gosh that's

my goal right I really want that I'm not so sure I want that yeah I mean it's nice to have

as a feather but not something as a true business builder correct and I don't think you can

count on it you can you need to like you scale your business you need to look at your PR and your

marketing efforts and as to how you're scaling and steps so it's starting out small and then

and then adding to that and chunking that is really important and so it for us it's worked yeah

and you do I understand correctly that you literally wear other businesses whether they're

interior design or other will start out the gate from baby business investing in advertising

you you invested in PR from the baby business that wasn't like okay now I'm in business

10 years and people are starting to know me let me capitalize on it you this was your philosophy

and this is how you built the business correct yeah correct yeah yes and I've been fortunate

I we've had a PR consultant with us for seven years and she and I are very synergistic

so it's been it's been wonderful and the business has grown accordingly because because of that

yeah I have a plan like anything no different than having a strategic plan a marketing plan

I have a PR plan you know we're very specific in what we do it's not Willie Nilly and it's not

Lucy Cucie just like our letter of agreement isn't you have to be buttoned down people are

spending a lot of money with you they need to feel like you're above board you're trustworthy

you're honest all of that and and and being having all these pieces really allows for that

yeah I love it it's very comprehensive and it's it's clear to me that you are giving

due thought to every process that it takes to have a profitable business and of course the results

are there and I I love I love love love love talking with smart people that do things well thank you

well you know it's funny people say to me what do you do and I say and what I typically my

typical response is I'm principle of a firm oh yeah an interior design firm I don't lead the

conversation but when someone says so what do you do for a living I rarely say I'm an interior

designer no I'm the business owner I lead a firm my firm is designed I love that and you know

what it's so true yeah you know I mean how many times have you been in a you know a situation

in somebody yes I already what do you do oh you know I I run a company or I you know I have

a company and such and such they you know it's only like the design field that everybody starts

with I'm a designer you know and you're right it's it's it's just it's a different spin on on

the reality of it yeah I love it okay everybody out there your principles of a firm yeah absolutely

love it love it love it so before you go tell me we're in you know this of course podcast is ever

green and somebody might listen to this in three months or two years but right now in real time

it's graduation season and tell us you know for somebody who does have a successful firm and has

had two different career paths and all of the knowledge that you've you know earned give me

something that you would say to interior design students coming out of school looking for that

job and and performing in their first job so I'd I'd say two things in response to that

Luann one is if you have not taken business classes you absolutely positively must because

you may want to run your own firm one day and and if you have not gotten enough of that background

in your you know in wherever you've been going to school then you absolutely must do that

key take-night classes go to the local college you know whatever that is but you absolutely

have to do that to be able to run a firm absolutely second is have patience you are not going to

start out you know interviewing clients being on site on a daily basis designing a room from start

to finish you're not going to do that it's a few years you don't have enough experience you know

I can't so many of the young designers that I've interviewed you know have said well I just

want to get started right away you don't know my business you don't know our clientele you don't

know how the business is run you don't even know what you don't know no right so so be patient you

know constantly be a sponge learn absorb don't think anything is beneath you you know it takes a lot

of hard work listen I started my business without ever having worked for another interior designer

if you don't think I had a learning curve I had a huge one I made a ton of mistakes and that's

okay but you know I just they're so eager and so anxious and that's what I love and they're so

technology friendly I know yeah however so much of our business is relationship oriented and it's

also communication to be able to be confident in yourself to sit across the table from an individual

and absolutely tell them with all assurance that yes they should spend twenty five thousand

dollars on that chandelier can you do that with a straight face with a straight face I'm not

so sure you can right so you've got to kind of develop that you've got to develop that sense of

self and a good firm will help you do that you know it's funny because I sort of hit you with that

question and you literally almost said you know at least three points that Kim Serifin I was on the

show a week ago and I interviewed her specifically because she's an employee that's worked for me

for eight years and she was maybe her third year out of school when she came to work for me so like

we all know that's like a baby designer right and she did exactly those things and I know I loved

her from the day I met her and you know every week and every month that went by she just more and

more impressed me and when she came here I said to her what was the deal how did you what what

what were you thinking she said know your place know your time will come you know all of these

they learn from the person who's teaching you all the things that you just said I love it

and I think there's this sense that eighty percent of your time is going to be spent on

being you know you're it will be creative you know it's not I know it's not you know it's almost

twenty percent the rest of it is gathering information right I mean you've got to gather that

information you've got to check your pricing you've got to set up your meetings you've got to

schedule you know there's so much of the detail work that goes into it that you know the actual

the actual selections and specifications don't you know don't take as much time as as the rest of it

and I think I think young designers don't often recognize that right right it's the it's the big

surprise well and it dotting your eyes and crossing your teeth is vastly important you know again

it goes back to that setting up the expectations with the client and that getting them to trust you

you know if you make a mistake on on your pricing who's eating that mm-hmm I'm not going to go

back to a client and say oh gosh I had a young designer and she made a mistake and that you know

that four thousand dollars sof is really five thousand dollars no I'm not going to do that so you

learn from all that you know and it's it's important yeah it's awesome I I agree a hundred

percent with that advice and I love it I love that you just I would look you know you're smart

lady I hit you with every single question without any pre-knowledge of what they were going to be

and you know you just hit it out of the park and I truly thank you I know like I said a few moments

ago I'm sure if I kept asking you questions we'd kept keep keep getting value but I'm aware of your

time and I do value it and I do appreciate you're so much spending it with me here on the show

today thank you so much Susan thank you Luanne I've I've really enjoyed it and if you like to do

this again you just let me know I'll be calling so already sounds great thanks have a great day

thank you bye bye wow I'm not sure where to start in recapping all of Susan's savvy advice so

let's take one her system of dividing every project into six phases I like that one now maybe

you're thinking it's not so unusual but then I ask you do you employ it to the level of detail

that Susan does she breaks down every project into the six phases documents all the variables

that go into each phase estimates the hours to complete each phase and then she presents the

project fee to her clients with the hard facts to back her up and the most important part the part

where many business owners fall down she then re-evaluates the project at completion comparing what

she projected it would cost against what it actually cost with an analysis process like this

she is able to constantly tighten up her proposals because she is consistently reviewing her data

in real time Susan isn't guessing what each project she bids will cost her she knows what it will

cost and as she put it people don't want pie in the sky numbers they want actual numbers and they

want to see how you got to those numbers this is what makes you credible and trustworthy my goodness

Susan did share so much more than this so please go on over to www.windoworks-nj.com slash

Susan B I made a list of her best tips for you and since I forgot to ask Susan to give us her

contact info if you'd like to reach out to her her website is www.sweetpeas-inspired.com

thanks so much for joining me have a great day

my great thanks to the sponsor of our podcast Kravit Inc featuring curatedKravit.com

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rugs and so much more do yourself a favor and visit curatedKravit.com today to see what I'm talking

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yourself at curatedKravit.com thank you for joining me today this podcast is a production of

Luan Nigara Inc if you want to know more about me my books or Luan University go to LuanNigara.com

and if you are interested in having window works help you with your next window treatment or

awning project in the New York New Jersey metro area go to windowworksnj.com to learn more

have an excellent day