1157: In Good Company: CEO Conversations with Kate O’Hara: Marketing to the Three Tiers of Luxury Clients and How to Attract Each One

Welcome to a well-designed business.

My name is Luanne Igarra and I'm so glad you found this podcast.

Together with my husband Vince and our partner Bill, we have grown our company Windowworks

from the ground up.

So I know and I understand the challenges you face in running your interior design business.

I also know that your talent alone isn't enough to ensure your success.

So on this podcast, we talk about strategies and practical steps to help you grow your business.

But make no mistake about it.

We have our share of fun here too, mixed in with those aha moments that I love so much.

This isn't fluff, nobody has time for that.

Whether you are a new interior designer or a seasoned designer, I am here to help you

create and to manage the kind of interior design firm that you dream of.

It's straight talk and it's action.

Are you ready?

Let's get started.

Hi, welcome to a well-designed business and it's PowerTalk Friday and today we are

continuing our series In Good Company, CEO Conversation with Cato Hara of O'Hara Interiors.

Now this is a part two conversation.

And if you missed part one, it was episode 1148 about a month ago.

We will link it in the show notes.

You've got to stop.

You've got to go back and listen to it.

I would say keep listening here, but I'm telling you, if you missed it, it's technically

better if you go back and listen to that first.

You'll get value by staying here now, but you will deepen that value.

The whole context because we just take for granted, you get what we're talking about and

you're up to speed.

So that's episode 1148, go listen and come right back.

Now, if you listened, you might be one of the many, many, many people that reached out

to me to tell me how much you loved that episode.

This was from newbie designers to seasoned designers.

I mean, people in business 20 years were messaging me saying, OMG, that episode was gold.

And I know it was because Kate doesn't mess around.

She doesn't talk about theory.

She talks from real live experience, okay, from building, leading pricing and making real

decisions inside a very successful, profitable, big firm.

And Kate and I have been having these business strategy conversations for years.

She's one of those people who consistently makes me rethink something I thought I kind

of figured out whether it's pricing, positioning, scaling, client expectations.

She always challenges assumptions, including her own.

And this is why these conversations matter because Kate just thinks about things on a deep

level and she helps you see what's typically right in front of you.

Now in part one of this conversation, we broke down Kate's framework for the three tiers

of luxury clients, entry level luxury, mid-tier luxury, and elite level luxury.

One of the most important truths that came out of that conversation is this.

Most of you, I would venture almost to say, all of you, will work across more than one

tier at any given time, right, not within the same client, but you will have clients at

the same time that fit the entry level tier and the mid-level tier, or they fit mid-level

tier in elite.

Typically you're working your way between entry and mid and then you graduate if it's your

desire to do that.

You can make a very profitable business in those first two tiers.

But if you are striving to that elite, you will then sometimes have projects in the

mid and sometimes in elite and you might sometimes have projects in all three.

And what Kate explained to us is that is normal.

And that's normal for even firms whose primary roster is elite.

But they still often will have a mix of mid and elite.

The critical distinction, and this is where the successful firms separate themselves from

the ones who struggle, the ones that have problems with their clients about around the

pricing, is the successful firms always know which tier the client across the table from

them is in.

And because they know that with certainty, they frame their pricing, their process, and

their deliverables accordingly.

They don't deliver elite-level service to a mid-tier pricing structure because that client,

you've told them that they need $500,000 for the investment level and they've said,

well, I've got $250, and so you think to yourself, well, I've got a certain level luxury

client on my hands and then you over-deliver, but you're still pricing in that $250 range.

No.

They don't deliver elite-level to mid-tier.

They don't deliver mere tier to entry-level.

And they don't over-educate an elite client who hired them specifically not to be involved.

Right?

They're leading with clarity.

And that's the thing that Kate taught us in part one.

So go back and listen to it because it's amazing, all right?

Now today, Kate's going to get practical for us.

In this conversation, she's talking about positioning.

Specifically, how do I attract the clients in the tier I want to serve, right?

What does your messaging need to say to attract the entry, the mid, and the elite?

How should your website and portfolio look different depending on who you're speaking

to?

And just as important, where are these clients actually finding designers for their specific

tiers in the first place?

Okay?

So Kate, he's amazing, she tells us all, all right?

Now many of you tell me that you want to work at a higher level, but everything about

your brand and your positioning is still speaking to that entry level.

Or you tell me that you should want a certain tier because it sounds prestigious without

really getting honest about where your happy spot is because there's no wrong tier here.

It's just applying the wrong thinking to the tier, right?

So you do you, you be where you're happy.

And of course, do it so that your business can make money, all right?

This conversation will help you understand where you are, where you want to be, and how

to position intentionally instead of accidentally.

Now before we get to the conversation with Kate, I just want to take a quick minute to

say thank you to our sponsor, Kravit.

And to tell you about how Kravit is expanding with brand new showrooms designed to support

the way you actually work as a designer.

Recent openings include Birmingham, Alabama, Charleston, Watermill, New York, and Basking

Ridge, New Jersey, also Palm Beach, Florida.

Now each Kravit showroom features their innovative workspace model, an interactive environment,

showcasing furniture, fabric, wall covering trim, and carpet samples.

And they're merchandise to mirror how you source by fabric type, by category, by color,

hearing it by the way you think about your projects.

Now if you're listening in real time, this is January 13th, 2026.

And January 21st, 2026, I'm going to be giving a presentation at the Basking Ridge, New

Jersey showroom.

So if you are in the New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Pennsylvania area, or you're going to be in town,

I would love to see you in person.

Mark your calendar, come say hi, come listen to my presentation, I'm sure there's a link

in the show notes for an RSVP, or it's over on my, you know, what is it called, the Instagram

link tree, there's places to figure it out, okay?

But it's free.

All you have to do is let us know you're coming so they know how much food to have.

And I would love to see you there on January 21st, 2026 at the Basking Ridge showroom, Kravit,

New Jersey.

All right.

Now let's get to part two.

It's a conversation.

Okay.

Dohara.

Hey Kate, thanks for coming back to a well-designed business today.

Hi, Louis, I'm always happy to be here.

And I'm glad we're back together again today because we're picking up that conversation.

We talked about it in the intro and all the things.

And today we're going to talk about how to position yourself, how to show up in your branding

and your messaging and the things that you say, whether it's in your website copy,

whether it's in your conversations with your prospective clients, whether it's in your

social media posts, but positioning your messaging to speak to the things that are important

to these three levels of clients, the things that are important to the entry level client,

the mid-tier client, and that upper elite luxury client.

It's what we've learned is there are different things in the previous episode.

And now we've got to talk to those things so when we know which one we want, they find

us, right?

Yes.

Yeah.

I think the last time we spoke, you kind of gave people a little homework to start thinking

about who are you trying to attract, is it one specific tier?

Is it a couple of tiers?

And so today we're going to talk about maybe how to attract clients at any level, whether

it's a more entry level luxury client, mid-tier, or what we're calling kind of the elite

level of luxury client.

And the thing is, that's a good distinction too, because I just went for a walk with a

designer this morning and we were talking about how, when times are a little leaner, you

know, even though she is a full service luxury client, I'm like, you can have other services.

You don't have to have them on the website, you don't necessarily have to let them like,

there's different ways, but I think the acknowledgement that, yes, there are firms

that strictly work in the entry level and they love it.

There are the firms that are lucky enough to work strictly at the upper elite level,

but most firms do kind of toggle back and forth with clients from at least maybe entry level

in mid and then mid and like, you know what I mean, we both go, we all go down a little

bit sometime, they keep the pipeline going or for a repeat or a referral, something, right?

Kate, we're not likely that we're only servicing one client ever, right?

Absolutely.

Yeah, there are lots of ways that you can toggle, so to speak, but being flexible, not being

so ego-driven that you decide you do this and only this is what will probably help, you

know, recession-proof, economy-proof, your business, and we are talking about the business

of design here.

So you can know who your ideal client is and that's who you're aiming to attract while

still having other services.

And what you might find is that all of your marketing is really focused on bringing in

the ideal client while you quietly, but don't publicly present this, are maybe 10%, 20%,

40% of the time, 60% of the time working on the non-ideal clients.

I mean, the reality is, the very real reality is that there are designers out there who

might appear to be working with one type of client because that's who they're trying

to attract, but 80% or 90% of the time they're working with a different client.

So they've just got a clear understanding of who they want to attract and you do have

to take a minute to ask yourself, do I really want to work with that client?

And that's why I'm trying to attract them, or would I be better off just attracting

more of the people who are already coming my way?

So there's a little, you know, I would encourage people to really give it some thought because

it's easy to say you want to work with the elite client.

It sounds fabulous and it can be, but there are expectations that come with that and just

as there are expectations that come with other levels and you might find yourself actually

really enjoying.

I have a designer on my team who really prefers to work with mid-tier clients.

She finds it more fulfilling and she finds that the relationships just form more naturally

for her and she's really happy there and that it's taken her some years to figure that

out.

But, you know, I don't have a problem with that.

You're only blindly just one level just because you think that's the level that you

should want.

It's like really, like you said, take time to figure out where's your happy spot, right?

And then I think the secondary message is, you have a happy spot, but we need to pay

dollar bills.

We need to like make dollar bills and the place has to say open, so we're probably always

going to swim.

I was just saying to this designer this morning, I said, it's like window works.

Yeah, most of our average project is about $10,000.

That's our average project.

We have projects that are 50, 80, $150,000 for just window treatments.

But if somebody calls and they say, I just want to blind in a laundry room, we're not

going to say no.

Do you know what I mean?

Because a lot of times somebody's just vetting you.

Do you make an appointment and show up?

Do you call me back?

Do you install what's your install or what's, you know, is it a gelopy that shows up and

leaks oil on my driveway or is the whole thing from beginning to end professional?

And yeah, we're not going to like go three hours away to the Hamptons for a wood blind.

But I'll go a mile away.

Yeah.

I'll see you in a minute.

Yeah.

We'll be there in 10 minutes, right?

Excellent point.

And it does tie into some of the things we'll talk about today because if I have somebody

who comes in very, very clearly below, let's say, kind of what would, what would be an ideal

client profile or our minimums or what have you.

But the way that they found us always signals to me that they are probably an elite client,

then sure, we'll do that blind, you know, we will do that project that we would probably

never say yes to otherwise, because this might be a quick test or this might be the first

thing that leads to a massive, massive project.

So being aware of and understanding those signals can be really important because that

one little powder breath project that you just sort of said, okay, I'll take it, ideally,

it doesn't surprise you when it turns into a million dollar project or a multi million

dollar project because you paid attention to some other signals around it.

Yeah.

It's just literally having a clear criteria for how you say yes and how you say no, which

is a whole other podcast.

But yeah, so literally talk about this brand positioning and this language.

And so we're going to start with this entry level tier.

And I guess you're going to give me some tips and pointers on how to message and speak

to that type of client.

Sure.

So my shorthand here would be at an entry level, you need to be discoverable at a mid tier,

you need to be distinct and at an elite tier, you need to be discreet.

Oh, look at you with this little fancy triple D.

I know that happened accidentally, but I'm rolling with it.

You know, at the first tier, we talked last time about how it's kind of a transactional

relationship.

And so people need to be able to find you.

They need to be able to find you, probably online and you need to have a consistent professional

authoritative presence.

That's it.

That's what's going to do it.

They want to have a transaction, I mean, they're looking for you, maybe it's somewhat

in the same way that they're looking for a great restaurant that they haven't tried

before.

Okay.

So here we're looking for a consistent professional presence, right, which seem logical, like we're

just, we're not, we don't necessarily, when we're at an entry level, if we're an entry

level consumer and we're looking for our finding our designer, we're not, it's almost like

I don't know what I'm looking for, but if I see bad, I'll see it.

But if I just see what I expect to see, like, oh, there you are, Sally Smith in my neighborhood

or in my town or in my community or my penny saver book, and you will do one off consultations

and you will do rejuices of my room and you will do paint colors that I don't need a whole

lot more than that.

I need to find you.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And this is where, yeah, you know, this client maybe has worked with a painter before,

worked with, you know, gone to the carpet, you know, store before and, you know, worked

with someone maybe, but now they're, they're upping the service that they're getting.

They're now going to hire a designer who might help coordinate those things.

I'm going to help select the paint color and I'll coordinate with my painter.

So I'm easing the process for you.

But they also are not probably doing a full range of services and the client probably

doesn't need a full range of services.

So it's a pretty focused, I need this and I need this.

Can you come and do it?

They're also a little at this level less focused on the aesthetic.

They're looking for what is familiar, reassuringly familiar.

This is a very risk-averse client typically.

They want neutrals.

They want things that they've seen on Pinterest and Instagram.

And it's not because they don't appreciate fine art.

It's because for them, this is going to be a big investment and maybe they're only investment

into their home.

So they want to get it right and the best way to get it right is not to take a risk.

Right, right, right.

We're not putting a crazy thing that in three or four years we're going to be tired of

and we can't afford to replace.

Exactly.

And also, it's not only, and I mean, you tell me you know more about it than I do, but

I feel like it's also not even so much consciously that they're risk-averse design-wise.

It's that they're in that entry-level design where they are like Pinterest is the bend and

all be all like this is great design, like that's all they know, right?

Yeah, no.

Most people who are risk-averse don't realize that about themselves.

This is just how they interact with the world.

Yeah, this client isn't looking for great design.

They're going into the furniture store on the street and thinking that's a beautifully

design vignette in that furniture store.

Yeah.

That's great design.

They're aspiring to that, right?

Exactly.

Yeah.

Exactly.

And then when you move up to that mid-tier client who is potentially building a custom

home or doing in a significant remodel or furnishing a whole house, they are starting

to look for a real distinction in design aesthetic.

They want you to have a distinct style.

And so your positioning needs to shift online from and in other places.

You're now probably moving offline in some of your positioning as well and how you might

find your clients online and off.

And here you're starting to be known maybe for a specific look or a specific design perspective

and you have a reputation that starts to move toward client experience and aesthetic.

More so than just they hit the budget, they stayed out, they got everything done on time

and it was, you know, as advertised, which would be kind of that first year.

So this is where my brain is starting to think about when, you know, Sarah Brennan, you

know, one or two years into her business started to use the phrase, Romantic transitional

or Tristan transitional romance, I don't remember what it was.

It was one of those things.

But she started to gain an aesthetic niche and the perspective she was known for.

Yeah.

She's putting her branding and her conversation and her messaging behind it.

And now that mid-tier client is like, oh, great firm in my area, blah, blah, blah,

but they've got to look.

They've got to look.

They've got to look.

Yeah.

They're looking for a look now.

They're that they're aware of a look and they feel like that look is a little different

than what they could get from everybody.

Exactly.

Yeah, I might get pushed a little bit out of my comfort zone and I'm ready for it.

Yeah, I want that.

Yeah.

And then at the, at the top tier, the positioning is really quite different because here,

you're kind of like a best kept secret, you know, here, you're, you're known for being

discreet, you're known for being good to work with, for a client who does want a designer

who's an artist, an artist of sorts who is culturally aligned with them who, I mean,

we can go on and on, but I think the idea of kind of less is more in terms of how you're

advertised that that starts to be the case.

You may recognize this if you go on to certain designer's websites, you really admire.

You might find that go to go to a lot of 80, 100 designers websites.

There is very little information on some of those websites about their services.

They offer sometimes very little information and I don't, I would say that's not by accident

because they're not trying to attract everyone, the people they're trying to attract know

enough about them because they've seen the articles and they've been recommended by their

friends. And it's basically like if you have to ask how much my design fee is, you're probably

in the wrong spot. Whereas when we're in the mid tier, we're saying, look, you know, a full room

design fee is going to start at 10k and we're telling people that and we're letting them know,

like you've left the entry level tier where it's $500, you know what I mean? And now,

when you go to the next level, it's like, we're not necessarily putting pricing out, we're not

necessarily putting out all of the process because it's this, this, it's the branding that I've created

around myself that just says, I'm AD 100, I'm L Decor, I'm this like these people.

Yeah, this is the client who you might, you might say, do you have, you know, a particular

investment in mind for this project and let the client tell you if they do. But if they say,

no, we're just going to play this one by ear, there's kind of an understanding.

Playing this one by ear means just show me what, what my options are and I'll let you know what I

want to do. And you know, one of my, I think I've may have told you this story before, but one of

my favorite, I just think this is such a darling story. We had a client who had really come to us

and said, we want to keep the, the budget on this one tight, we're not going to go overboard,

we're just, you know, this isn't going to be like the other projects, just, just a smaller remodel.

But as they moved into the, through the project and started selecting appliances and this and

that, they just, our designer sat down and said, okay, I just want to do like a quick kind of

reality check that you're now, you're now selecting things that represent the whole, you know,

budget that we had originally discussed. You know, is that okay with it? But are you okay with it?

And they're like, yeah, we just want to do what we want after all. And so, you know, truly, you

know, we, that's where we are in those projects, where we're just, you know, we're there to be a

partner, we're there to raise the flag and say, okay, we said this and now here's where we are,

we should, are you, we're all aware of that, right? And, and then, and then we just move on.

It doesn't have to be quite the same type of conversation because the priorities of our shift in.

And I think then the kind of second point, you know, once we understand kind of the general

positioning that we can think about is the aesthetic. So, how do you convey these things as like

in terms of brand graphic design styling aesthetic to clients? And, um, and at an entry level,

it really comes down to being having a website that's clear. It's professional. It's approachable.

Everything is come on in. There's no velvet rope. There's a lot of information. Everything's

very understandable. And, um, everything is all about making it very easy to get started. Okay.

So, book a call here. Do a Q&A form here. Get a lead magnet here to understand how to go through

a design project. Like, make it really like, I get it. I've never worked with a designer before,

but this makes sense to me. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it feels reassuringly professional because only

a professional would have all of that set up. So, you're optimizing your conversions. Um, you're maybe

taking on a number of smaller projects and doing a little bit higher volume as a result. But you're also,

you know, able to, I don't want to use the word churn, but, you know, you're able to move through

things a little bit more quickly. And in doing, in doing it, that way, you're also conveying to

the client, we're, we're, we're a, we've got a nice system in place. Yeah. And what is the, so,

so you just said so, so this is the level where we are talking about our process and the way that

we communicate and we handle the vendors and we handle the trades and we're putting that type of

information forward because for the entry level client, they're like, oh, I don't do that. Oh,

you do that. Oh, I don't do that. Whereas the elite level client is like, of course, you're handling

the trades. Yeah. There's no question at the elite level. I would say at the mid level,

we're doing even more of that communication at the, at the entry level, we're doing a lot of,

here's how we get started. Okay. We're just, we're really clear about the starting, the starting.

I say we, I, these aren't clients, we're typically taking on, um, but we have in the past, so I know

how this, this flows. Um, and, um, and then when you do move into that mid tier, you, you're

aesthetic is going to be a little bit more confident, a little bit more editorial. Your website might

look a little bit more like the pages of a magazine and your expression of process is present,

but it's not right there. First page, it's, you know, someone has to navigate their way to that

information probably. Okay. So it's, it's aesthetic forward. Okay. Um, and these are the clients

when we are talking to them, where we are talking through maybe a more comprehensive process,

because they have a more comprehensive project to talk through. So we need to talk about not just

today, not just a week from now, but a year or two or even three from now, because even at a

mid tier, we might be working on two and three year long projects. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, and then on the elite level of kind of the aesthetic, that's where the point of you gets even

more specific. Um, and this is where you start saying less, you know, there's, there's less

information. It's a little like if you need to ask these questions, maybe we're not, who you're

looking for, because you're hiring an artist. So, um, you're not hiring a process, you're hiring

an artist. Hopefully you have a process. I'm just going to say, I mean, I really hope so.

I really, really hope so. We need the one of us that you don't have a process at this level.

Not at all. Not at all. No, at this level, you should absolutely have a process, but that's not

why the client's hiring you. Right. They're hiring you because you have such a, um, expert level

artistry and point of view and, um, and also because they've heard such amazing things about you

from their own networks and friends or from their, you know, architect or builder, um, though

that can also be true at the mid-tier. So, like, what goes to my mind is because I've just

this summer recently, well, Corey was in the spring. I interviewed Corey again for the spring,

but I just recently interviewed Barclay Boutera again and I hadn't met in a hundred years.

And I don't think the show is out yet. I don't know. I never know which one is coming before which,

but when I think about like what you were just saying that the point of view is clear that you're

hiring an artist, not a process, it's when you think of Corey Damon and Barclay, you, you're not,

like, well, let me interview both of you, right? Like they are completely different in the style

of the design. When you look at their work, it's like, that's Corey Damon, that's Barclay

Boutera, right? And so that's you know, you want to call one, you know, you probably don't want

to call the other for this project, right? Because it's not the aesthetic, right? Yeah, it's a specific

point of view. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And they're, they're branding and they're messaging, you know,

Corey Damon, is it like every fourth post? Oh, and by the way, I can do coastal beach too. He's like,

yeah, we were going for elegant traditional classic mix of luxury with a little twist that surprised

you, right? Yeah. Where Barclay is like, let's get that blue and let's get those ocean breeze

is going, right? Exactly. Exactly. And they are both incredibly versatile designers. They can do

so many different things, but they are very editorial and how they present themselves. Yes. So

for everything you do see online, just imagine what you don't. Right. Well, that's the other thing.

That doesn't mean that Corey isn't doing something's beach house and Barclay isn't doing somebody's,

you know, you know, camelback sofa study with, you know, whatever's, right? It's just,

they don't put that out there because they're doing the aesthetic forward at this elite level.

Exactly. Exactly. It's not everything we've done. It's what we want you to know that we've done.

Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And that kind of naturally flows, I would say

into also some of the messaging that you have. I mean, we've kind of touched on it. The language

that you use is an extension of that aesthetic at the, you know, you can imagine at a entry level,

we're talking about budgets and timelines. And I know we're, I know there are some out there who say,

oh, don't use the word budget, say investment. And that's true at a certain point, but there is

a point where people are reassured to hear the word budget, rather than investment. And this is,

where that would be the case. If you at an, at an entry level, someone asks a client how much do

you plan to invest, that can be a little nerve wracking because invest sounds like a bigger number

than a budget. And that's a priority, right? Budgets and timelines. We also then, like at a

mint tier, we might be discussing now investments and timelines, but we're going to be a lot more

focused on style, on ease of process, and on the partnership. We're going to be partnering because

now we're developing a relationship. At the first level, we're probably starting off transactionally

and we'll let the relationship grow kind of organically because maybe the one color selection

will lead to a powder bath project down the road and maybe it will grow over time. But at the

mint tier, maybe we're building a home or doing a remodel or furnishing a house. And at this level,

we want our clients to know that they're going to, we're going to understand their lifestyle.

We're going to understand their design aesthetic. We're going to understand their priorities.

And that will be a consistent thread that runs through the whole project because we're there

as their ally from start to finish knowing what their goal is at the end of the project. Because

there's no other partner who will be with them potentially as early and as late as we will.

There are some who will get started even before us, but there's no one who stays there quite

so long. So that fabulous designer architect, they're done at a certain point and they don't have

to worry about certain things or they never get to experience certain pain points that we will

get to experience because the client will let us. And the builder doesn't have to worry about how

furniture works within a space. They don't want a piece of that furniture. So we really drive

home that relationship piece because we're there for so long and that becomes really important

that partnership. And that is at the mid level you're talking about. Yes. At that mid level.

Right. Yeah. So that conversation, that messaging is the partnership. I'm your advocate. I'm with

you through the whole thing. I'm going to manage all the pieces. I'm going to be the one that makes

sure your needs and wants and desires are understood and I'm going to translate it back to

everybody out there that's connected to this. Yes. Yeah. And how is it different at the entry level

that conversation? I know you said that it was more transactional, but what are the words there?

What is that messaging? What is a conversation like? Well, we're a little bit less focused on the

relationship because it's transactional and it's more like, okay, to accomplish this, it's

probably going to take about this much time. It'll probably cost about this much. It's about

setting setting expectations regarding budgets and timelines and then delivering. Okay.

Because setting the expectation and delivering over and over again. Because what it sounds like

inherently because the the budget is going to be smaller at the entry level. We're not talking

about all the things that like that whole partnership is a conversation of I've got you through

this whole thing. Whereas the other is we're going to put boxes around the things that you're

going to buy and I'm going to deliver those boxes and then we're going to we're going to close the

box and go away or we're going to buy another box. So it's there. That's a very, you know, it's

interesting because that makes perfect sense when I think about the 16 billion conversations I've

had with Chairman of the boards and depending on where they are in their timeline, that really is

one of those entry level conversations that both that consumer and that designer needs to

understand. No, no, we're not, you know, giving blood from a stone here. You're buying this box.

It has these things in it and what you're saying is you talk about it. You don't talk about it like

na na na na na. You don't get anymore, but you talk very clearly about what you do get. You get

this thing like the color selection package. Yep. So we're going to do the color selection package

and now you're asking me about some floor planning and if you want to do our floor planning

package, I can come back. I can measure all of your furniture. That would cost this amount. And so

they're very kind of they're they're just smaller projects and there might be a multitude that

you do over the course of a lifetime with a client and you might literally just do a color

consult and you never see that client again. I like that because that that gives explanation to

what could be determined a negative connotation that transactional. But that that explanation is

very clear. It's we say it all the time. Here's what we're doing. We're doing this room and

just because we walk through the foyer to get to this room, I don't stand in the foyer for an hour

and giving you ideas. If you want to do the foyer, we'll add that to the services, right? Right.

Like that's that's is that entry level that transactional thing. And to your point, it doesn't mean

at the end of your engagement with an entry level client that you might not spend, you know,

$30, $40,000 in design fees over a year or two and hundreds of thousands in what you're doing.

But each one has been very carefully defined what it is because at this level, the money and the time,

you know, that like the money is most important than the time, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. And you know, then when you move to that top, that elite tier, I don't know if it's a top

tier, but that elite tier, you our purposes is the top tier. We know that here that we just get on

jets and go and do things whenever they want, but we're not talking about that year. Yeah, that's

that's a whole other thing. We've done that before too. And that's a whole other thing. But the

when you're doing this, you're really thinking about I'm going to say cultural alignment and exclusivity.

So you're you are conveying discretion and exclusivity that sometimes why less information is

provided. I'm even discreet in how much I share publicly about my own services because what you

hire me for, I would basically be telling people what I did for you by publishing it. You know,

yeah. So you're conveying things by that. There's also, you know, your messaging might come through

what publications you seek out because, you know, are your clients going to feel culturally aligned

if you're in one magazine versus another? Is your vision conveyed? These are clients who truly

will have in conversation that will be will be saying to the client, so what is your vision for

this project? And one client at this level might say, well, my vision is that it gets done and I'm

as uninvolved as possible. That could be a vision. And I'm not kidding. We'll hear that. And that's

fine. But for another, it might be a very kind of artistically thought out idea that is inspired

by something very specific. So there can be very different types of visions that clients have at

this level, but we start there. What is your vision? What is your vision? And then we can build from

there. Some clients say, my vision is that I'm as uninvolved because and I'm hiring you because I

want what you do. Right. Figure it out. And then others want to be more involved. But the idea there

is that there is a sense that we will handle everything. There is a sense that it will be a very

concierge like service. It will be very much white glove, but it also will be very driven. The

design will be driven by the designer from the kind of entry level. The design is driven more

by the client. And by the elite level, it's far more driven by the designer. Interesting. Yeah.

Because you're hiring the perspective. In one, you're hiring a service to be rendered. I've

got an idea. I found it in a magazine. This is what I want. I just need someone who can do it. And

then over here, I want something nobody else has. But I want it to be inspired by this. Or I want

it to work with this lifestyle. Or I want it to be so easy that it just gets done. And I get to

move in one day. You let me know in two to three years when I can move in. Yeah. It's, you know,

it's funny because of course, whenever we have these conversations, my brain runs through the

gabillion conversations I've had with designers, you know, working with them at windowworks all the

years. And when you were just like at this level, the design is driven by the designer. It just

hit me because there was this, he's passed away now. But there was this one designer in New York

City. And he was just ridiculously talented, like so stupidly creative and just, God, you were

just like, wait, like, that's nuts. That's just a chair. But how did you do that, right? And I

could just like, and of course, I was young. I was in my mid 20s when I met him. And he was

probably in his 40s when I met him. And we worked together a good, probably 15 or 18 years. He

died young, unfortunately, in his 60s. But I come to understand like the conversations that he

would have with his clients, like somebody would like, maybe I'm there meeting him to do window

treatments. And you know, he would one time I can remember somebody saying, well, before we get

started, I just have to like point out, I'm not sure I love, you know, the art in that room that

you finish like before you come over here and start doing draperies. And remember, he just looked

around and he goes, darling, who's the designer? What are you doing? Stop it. Come on,

the way, let's go do drapes. That was like, wow, you talked to people like, yeah, that was

how he was, you know, and we're talking, you're going back 40 years ago, 35, 40 years ago.

Yeah. He was like, that whole old New York guard of, you know, and it's like, but I just like,

we got in the room. I was like, and I just looked at him and he goes, oh, stop, Pishah.

Like, yeah, that's the art for the room. I don't care what she thinks.

I was, I was talking to a designer not too long ago who told me he works with very, very high

end clients. And he told me that he just tells all of his clients to expect to spend 10 to 15

percent on changing things that they install because he decides he doesn't like that.

Once installed, just to be prepared, that's what that's going to happen. He will realize that the

life thing is exactly exactly. It's not like it's, I didn't make a mistake. I realize it's time

for revisions now that I see this. And that's the best thing I've done. I didn't make a mistake.

I just needed to see it to know it wasn't right. This was our first draft. Every first draft needs

a revision. And, and I was like, wow, that's, that's a, that's a nice way to go about it. I was

very impressed with that one. It's, it is fun. When you watch what designers function at that

level, it's just like, whoa. Yeah. Yeah. And it was funny because that woman, she was no slouch.

She, you know, these are illegal. And she's like, I'm sorry, she would kick anybody else's normal.

You know what a favor talk to me. Yeah, I can imagine, I can imagine and it can work in the

reverse too because that same designer, like I say, can walk into a space and say, we have to

change this. They, they sometimes are the one talking out of the design. Like I, you know, I can,

I'm thinking of someone on my own team who, uh, no, she's, she was a designer with us, uh,

some years ago, incredibly talented designer, just fabulously talented. But she, she would do that

from time to time. Everything would be done. All approvals, all, all ready to go. And she would just

say, no, been sleeping on it. We need to change a really significant part of the design.

And she'd make those clients go back and change things. I'd be like, ah, do we really need to do

this? And she'd be like, yeah, we do. And she would talk through it. And I'd be like, well, you know

what? I'm convinced, you know, she, she was not wrong. Um, and that's, but you know, at that top

tier, you're working with few enough clients that you can spend the extra time really thinking about

the design in a way that, um, when you have a higher volume of clients that you're working with,

you, you know, you're not dwelling on the last paint color selection you made or the last title

selection you made because you're on, you're on to the next thing. It's time to be on. And also to

your points that you've made, both in the other episode on this topic and today is at that elite

level, you know, look, nobody wants to throw money away when, you know, even the designer who builds

in the 10 to 50 percent, I'm sure every single one of his clients is hoping that they don't just

redo things because, you know, you had a vision, right? But when, as you've been explaining all

the way through, the design is the priority, not the money at that point. The ultimate finished

product and another 15 or another 20,000 or another 100,000 is not the deal breaker at that level.

Right. That's exactly right. Yeah. Exactly. Right. And so then you have to think about, you know,

kind of we've talked about brand positioning, we've talked about brand aesthetic, we've talked about

messaging. Now where are these clients finding us? So if the goal today is to think about

attracting these clients at an entry level, I mentioned kind of at the beginning, they're finding

us online. Yeah. At the, at an entry level, they're finding us on Google. There's a real push for

strong SEO. They might still to still to this day be finding us even on house. And that's for

that kind of entry level. Right. When you move up a level, they're still that kind of online

presence is important. But maybe now people are finding us on Instagram. They are also more likely

to be finding us through builders and architect referrals. Maybe they saw our work on a showhouse.

And maybe we've been featured in local press. At that entry level, we probably aren't being

featured in local press, not because we're not talented, but because our work isn't expansive

enough to be press worthy. It's, you know, we haven't done enough to a space for it to be covered

editorially. We chose the paint colors. We changed the window treatments. We did one or two things,

but we didn't do the whole space yet. Or maybe we did the whole complete furnishing, but we didn't do

the, they didn't, you know, go all in with the accessory budget. So it looks beautiful,

but it looks bare bones. It's not magazine ready yet. Right. Or yeah, that's a great point. Or we did

the whole space, but we shopped for them via retail. We went from to a few different retail stores.

So it's not going to give the sort of narrative that the editorial pieces will be looking for.

By mid tier, we're working with trade lines. We're doing comprehensive spaces. And so local press

becomes very feasible. And, and people are finding us that way. But that's, that's the mid tier. Now

interestingly, it's sort of this, this strange thing where you go from needing to be found

widely online and then kind of growing your presence and your design perspective on social media

and other places and developing all of these local relationships. You're working so hard to do that.

And then you hit this elite level. And suddenly you're like a bit penny. You're everywhere.

I don't want to work with you. Suddenly what you need is a small tight number of relationships.

And you don't need all the rest is I will never say a relationship is not important. I am a

relationship person. But when I think about our elite clients and our elite client projects

and my designers, I don't have a huge team of designers, but I do have a team of designers.

And each designer does have kind of a book of work and her clients that she has a long

standing relationship. Sometimes she's been working with generations of this family. And

the designers who work consistently on these elite level projects,

they are working with this client. And then they're working with this client's neighbor.

And that that client's friend. And then they're coming back to client number one who's in

another house now. And now they're working with and it is very much and then there's also that

architect from that project and that builder from that project is now bringing them into two or

three projects that they're doing. And in this area, because this lake has a little bit of activity

right now, and that is how it starts to grow and emerge. And so there are, it becomes important.

It remains important to stay top of mind and have really strong relationships with the people

you need relationships with. But at the same time, the online presence that you've spent so much

time creating becomes maybe a final checkpoint. Right. Right. Right. Not a relevant.

It's not the decision maker for that really client. Exactly. Like you said, I'm going to call

them no matter what, but I'll check the website. Or I can't tell you how often I'm talking to one

of these clients, prospective clients, who say, well, I haven't seen the website yet, but I mean,

I sort of know, you know, I've been into a couple of your homes. So I sort of know, and I'm,

you know, that's probably better, you know, advertising than the website will be, right?

Like they've been through the houses. They felt. Yeah. Yeah. So that's that's kind of a

differentiator. Now, is there like, you know, flow between all of these tears? Yes, absolutely.

Absolutely. We I'll never forget, you know, one of our all-time biggest clients out of state

found us online. And it just turned into this huge thing. And we've done multiple projects

for them now. And they're the loveliest couple. And but you know what they've done? They've

recommended us. Right. Just so they found you by that initial search. But now that you're

continued to bring you into their circle of friends and friends and family, right? Yeah. The

initiator happened to be online. And that was magic. But the work we've gained since has been

that word of mouth, that word of mouth that at that top tier. Yeah. Well, and I feel like all of

this conversation, this one in the previous episode, it's like that whole thing that we say,

this is all going to be true for 80% of the situations. You're always going to have

the enigmas that come around. You're always going to have that elite client that didn't find you

in AD that did find you in Google, right? You're always going to have that, you know, entry level

client that did find you from a builder or a referral. It says, it's not, it's, we're, we're

generalizing so that you can form your own plan on how to attack something, right? It's exactly.

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I think one of the more frustrating things that

designers get told that when they're trying to break into that elite level is like, well,

you just have to be where the clients are. Yeah. I can't tell you how often I've heard that.

And I always feel like, well, that's, that seems so unhelpful. Like, that's not a

whole thing to say, hang out at the country club. Like, what if I can't, right? Like, I guess that,

like, that maybe that's what I need to do. I don't have a yacht. I don't have to do your yacht,

but I don't have one that I can pull up next to you. Right. And so that's where if you have really

buttoned up your system in process, if you have developed a really strong point of view and you

can start pursuing relationships with partners who are working with that elite level and you can

start pursuing PR and press that might reach that elite level. That can be an entryway that can

feel that it's slow, but all of this is slow. Right. Right. You know, all of these relationships

are going to take time. I was, I was in New England chatting with a builder and, you know,

we were talking about working together one day and he was like, and he, he said in top tier

builder, incredibly talented guy and with an incredibly talented team. And he said, yeah, you

know, I, this seems like this could be a good match. This will be great one day. And, um,

he's, and then he kind of said in an offhanded way, I generally like to know someone for a

couple of years, two, three years before we actually work together. So this is great. I'm glad

that we've met. And I'm thinking this is how a builder feels. Right. Because he knows, I don't

blame him. He knows this is he's going to be held accountable for any recommendation he gives.

And he is going to be working. Yeah. He doesn't want any lunatic on the job. He's got a reputation.

And he wants to make sure you have a good specbook built and you're buttoned up. And the more he gets

to know you, the more he will trust that that you can come across with that process. And probably,

you know, the more he gets to know you, Kate, and in your circles, he'll start to be like, oh,

you worked with O'Hara and tears. I just met her. Oh, you know, that he's waiting for that

confirmation, right? Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, that two to three year time frame mimics the

length of a lot of projects. So it's like, okay, if we can stay consistent and that's, you know,

I'm not even on another project for two to three years. So he's like, okay, I'll put you in the

back of my head for the next time, which could be two to three years from now. Yeah. So I thought

that was so it sort of threw me back when he said I was like, whoa. And then I thought, but the more

I thought about it, the more I thought, well, that just actually makes quite a lot of sense. Well,

it just is that he's done the reflective thought on the way he decided who he works with and what he

actually understands as his logical pipeline, right? Yeah. And that doesn't mean that I don't think

that if you came to him with a project, right? Oh, he wouldn't turn that down. But he's talking

about the second he says, I'd like to introduce you, Mr. and Mrs. Smith to O'Hara Tears. That he's

going to wait till he has a little better understanding. Exactly. The second you give a referral, you are

spending some capital and you want to make sure that that's an investment you're making and not

and not just something you're throwing on credit. Exactly. Yeah. And so he does that by making sure

that his relationships are established. So I it made a lot of sense to me. And I think the final

thing I want to mention is that each of these tears, we've kind of all of these things are so intertwined,

but these three clients are looking for three different types of experience. And I do think it's

important that we understand that as designers because the entry level client who is a little bit

more transactional, who has a smaller scope of service they're looking for, who's looking for maybe

one or two things, not a comprehensive full service design. They want transparent fees. They want

an easy way to start. They don't want to have to jump through 17 hoops for a project that should

be wrapped up in a matter of weeks. Right. Right. That wouldn't make sense. Whereas a mid-tier client,

they're looking for more of a boutique feel. They might be willing to jump through a hooper to or have

an extra conversation or to to know that they're going to have a streamlined system that there's

a real process for the entire project and to make sure that expectations are more clearly aligned.

Because now we're talking about a project that is going to be at least measuring in the months

and possibly measuring in the years, probably. And then at that elite tier, there's the experience

expected is very white cloud, very concierge like any problem is my problem. As a designer, it is

my problem. It is not your problem. And this is where I think that every designer should be in

the habit of doing this. But at the top level, you have to be in the habit of doing this. And that is

to sit down at the beginning of a project with all of the pros who will be working on the project

to make sure that we understand what's our process when something goes wrong. Because when something

goes wrong, sometimes one of the worst things that can happen, this might sound strange. But I

will explain myself is that the clients informed. Yes. Because most problems can be solved without

the clients involvement. And the client at that top tier is being is hiring us because they don't

want it to be involved. Right. Don't get me in the weeds. So no, they don't want that at all. So

our job is to really understand what is the process. Let's all get together. We need to define who

is doing what. So we're not stepping on each other's toes. We need to understand in those areas

where we are collaborating or we have multiple partners responsible for things. Who's who's kind of

the person who has to close the loop on it? Who's got the ultimate responsibility of seeing it

forward? And you're talking about between yourself, the builder, the architect. Who are we talking

about? Who are those players at that table? Yeah, architect builder. We might be talking about

landscape or landscape architect. We're talking about us, the design firm. We might be talking about

you know, custom cabinetry. Like there might be some other specialists. We might be working with

you know, for working with someone like Ketra and Lutron. And we're going to do a whole lighting

architecture going into the house. All of these people. It's a lot of people and a lot of information

flowing. And so having that clear understanding of who's doing what I think Red Love, it's probably

talked with you about this before about having that initial meeting. I know he's really big on that.

And it's a it's a good reminder because the problems will occur. But the more we all understand how

we deal with problems and the more we understand each other's role, the fewer problems will happen.

And when they do the more easily, we can handle them. And what you're trying to say and set up is

that you know, builder and Lutron person might have a problem. But you want to know if they have

in this meeting you want to establish if you guys have a problem, you know, I'm getting looped in

before you just call the client because if the problem is a certain lighting that I specified

isn't going to work, I don't want you as the Lutron guy saying to my client, hey, that light fixture

your designer sent isn't going to work. You want them to come to you first and you can decide,

well, did you think about this or did you do that? And or if you've got to change something,

a plan, you know, you're going to go back to the client. But there might be exactly. But there might

be places where you would concede that it is, you know, the builder's place or the architect's

place to have that conversation. You're not saying it all goes through you. You're just saying,

there's a conversation where you guys all decide as grownups. It's almost like a prenup, right?

Nobody's mad at each other yet. Nobody's mad. We're just like, how are we going to do this? Right?

Because when when things go wrong, that's when things and emotions and everything gets heightened.

And if there isn't a pre plan that we can say, hey, we decided on this, that's when it can get

icky, right? Exactly. And it can also be a matter of acknowledging like, we had a project where a

countertop got a very expensive countertop got split. It was a whole thing broken and the job on

the broken broken. Yeah, we've got this is a one of a kind, irreplaceable. What do we do now? And

and so to have the conversation in advance means we understand we are going to come together

and we're going to together discuss potential solutions so that we're not all running to the client

like mommy and daddy saying he did it. He did it. She did it. They did it. It's not that at all.

It is instead us coming to the client and saying, okay, we have a problem and we have three solutions

that we've got prepared. Bob thinks we should do this. Sally thinks we should do that.

And this is what we recommend you do, but these are on the table, right? Yeah, yeah, solutions one,

two, and three. And then whatever costs there might be. And by cost, we might be talking dollars,

we might be talking time, we might be talking compromising design intention, you know,

those are all different types of cost. And so that's where we can just present a united front

as opposed to everyone racing to the client to try to point a finger first. That's the worst sort

of project. And I would I'm asking I would venture to say that this is a good practice no matter

what level client you're at, but you're just saying don't make this mistake at the elite level.

Do not have five years coming into the elite level because you're just going to piss them off at

all of you. Whereas the lower level client, you could see them getting involved in the drama of all

of it. Well, Bill said this and Sally said that and you said this and now you've completely lost

control of the narrative. Whereas the elite level client is just going to be like, are you kidding

me with the circus, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, there is at every level, this is what you want to

be doing. No question. But at the elite level, you want to be doing it even more, even more and more

kind of proactively because you want the whole process to feel to them like it was effortless,

even though of course it was not at all effort effortless. And at the say entry level,

it's probably not even necessary. Like you said, at entry level, you're usually doing design

into core. You're not necessarily, you know, building a whole house or maybe you are, I don't know,

but you're going to have less command over that at entry level. You're not going to sit there on

your clacky clacky heels and say, I need a meeting with everybody when everybody really isn't

necessarily involved in the process. But it's, I think what I'm hearing is there's a way,

if there's a builder involved in an entry level, there's a way to just have that conversation

with the builder. Hey, you and me, we're on the same team. Let's approach things proactively

together, I'll bring it to her, you'll bring it to her or whatever it is. But what I'm seeing and

hearing is the higher up you go in the projects, probably the builder, the architect, the landscape

architect, they're all expecting the same meeting like for the most part. We hope so, right? We hope so.

Yeah, yeah, we do. And occasionally we'll have a situation where we'll realize,

some like communications going a little off the rails on this project. And we like,

there have been instances where we said, Hey, team, let's get together not with the client.

Let's get together. Let's have a check in. We need to, we need to reset communications happening.

We're not not everyone's being included or something's going a little off wire. And so we just

handle it that way. But at the entry level to your point, we might be if we are selecting a paint

color and that's it or paint colors and providing a schedule and that's it. There's not it. There's

not a team to check in the firing the painter. They're hiring the painter, right? Yeah. But if we

are at an entry level coordinating the painter, coordinating the carpet installation, coordinating the

window treatment installation, we might find ourselves having a conversation and being like,

you can't just walk in and leave your shoes on. You can't just, but it's, it's conversations more

like that stand up conversations, opposed to everybody in the same building for a meeting or the

scope changes things quite a lot. The scope changes things quite a lot. But I think that,

that kind of white glove concierge, there's also, you know, that concier service might also mean

things like just knowing what someone's favorite drink is and having it ready for them when they

come into meetings. It might be just having a level of personalization that would be

harder to do at an entry level, not because you can't, but because if you're working on projects

that typically have a four to six week turnaround, the number of clients you're working with,

that would be a lot of drink, drink order. You'd have quite a bar, quite a bar at your office.

It leads in your favorite cocoa. And oh, and here's your scotch and here's your slipper. Like, come on.

Yeah, that gets, that gets to be a bit much. But, you know, that really is kind of the overall.

I think if there was any bonus content, I would just say that, um, you know, a designer's own

reputation shifts a little bit to from being, you know, capable and professional at that entry level

to having a strong design point of view that people admire locally at that mid-tier to being

known maybe even nationally or internationally as an artist. You know, that's, that's kind of the

progression. So to speak. Interesting. It's so good. It's so good. It's, um, what's funny is, you know,

when you hear it, it makes complete sense. It's, you know, you for, I know, like, like I said,

I keep filtering it through all my work one-on-one with designers and consumers from everywhere,

from entry level to the elite level. Um, and it's like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Right. But it's, uh, to have it in front of us and to have us be able to really hear the distinction

of the different levels and recognize the needs. And of course, we'll put the link in the show notes

to the other show that this goes in tandem with because that's where you really went through, um,

those needs in a very core way. What are the things that are, that matter to this person at this

level in their journey? And, you know, to your one story, you can have an elite person that thinks

this next project is going to function like a mid-level because, oh, this is our 14th house. You

know what I mean? We don't care about this with so much. And they might stay in that level, right?

Or they might come up and bring themselves back up. So there's no shade. There's no judgment on

which level you're servicing because anyone's firm could be servicing all three at the same time.

Um, but it's kind of like, you know, like you know, we might stupid, you know, restaurant analogies.

It's like knowing that this, this person is a meat eater. This person is vegan. And this person is,

I don't know what another thing is, right? Like gluten free, right? It's like, nobody is better than

the other. And nobody is more desirable than the other if you own a restaurant. But you're not

going to go and sit in front of the vegan, you know, patron and put a rib eye down in front of

them. Like it's, you just, you're not talking their language. And when you want to attract that

client to your restaurant, you don't talk about the great stakes you have. So it's just getting this

in your mind, what the needs are for each so that you can craft your messaging to attract them.

I love it. Yeah. No, I think that's a perfect analogy right there. And it is, it is. And I

and I appreciate you saying that there isn't one, one type of client is really not preferential

because there's, you know, it's people dream of being an arc digest. They dream of getting to do

the project that is generally at that elite tier that nets you those things. But in the realm of a

lifetime of being a designer, for some, it may be entirely about the artistry of design. And for

others, it might be about the types of people that they get to work with and whose lives they're

enhancing. And, and there's something, you know, noble to about finding a way to really enhance

people at that more entry level who've not experienced it before. So I think that, you know, we

just need to leave space for everyone and hold space for them. 100%. 100%. Well, my friend, as always,

you always make so much sense. I appreciate you again, Kate. Thank you. Thanks, Leanne. It was a pleasure.

Okay, how much do you love the way Kate's brain thinks, right? I mean, talk about cutting through

the noise. And here's the money line, discoverable, distinct, discrete. I just love it. I mean,

Kate's insight about client experience. It hits home, doesn't it? Each tier wants something

different entry level clients need education and reassurance. This may be their only major

investment in their home. And they want to understand every step. It makes sense. Mid-tier clients

want partnership. These projects are often longer and more complex and they value collaboration

and communication. Elite clients, they want their time treated like the luxury it is.

They want the design driven by you, the expert they hired, less explanation, more leadership.

Okay, but here's the reality check. And I appreciate Kate's honesty here. Not everyone wants to work

with elite clients. Maybe you don't want to. It's perfectly fine. Some of you thrive on the variety

of the mid-tier projects, right? While others may love the relationship building that comes with

entry level clients, the real mistake and the only mistake is shutting yourself. I should be working

at this level. I should want that kind of client. For reasons that don't matter, prestige,

Instagram, comparison, do you figure out what your sweet spot is, learn that client, learn

them inside and out, learn their priorities, their values, their expectations, and then show up

for them in a way that creates positive outcomes for you both, right? And then the other thing

that really resonated with Kate said was where these clients find you, okay? And she had it down

pat. Entry level clients are searching Google and House, right? As a general rule. Elite clients

are coming through architect referrals and, you know, property developers and high-end builders

and carefully curated press. Completely different strategies for you when you're sitting around

looking at what you're going to do for your business and marketing, right? And if you're using

entry level tactics to think you're attracting elite clients or elite tactics to think you're

going to get entry level clients, frustration is guaranteed, right? So here's your homework.

Look at your current client mix and ask yourself if it matches who you actually want to work with,

right? It might, you might be like, I love these kinds of clients or you might say, I've got one

of the kind of light I love, but you know, the other six or seven from last year, not so much.

So now once you've got that kind of figured out for yourself, then audit how you are positioning

yourself. Audit your website, your messaging, your marketing, where are you putting your time and

energy and money? If you find a disconnect here, you're not alone. Most of us will make these

mistakes along the way. The key is being honest about it and then making a plan to close those gaps

and then act on that plan, right? And Kate said and it's worth repeating. This work takes time and

intention, but it is how you build the business that you actually want with the kinds of clients

and projects that bring both profit and satisfaction, all right? We put together a goodie at

luannaigara.com forward slash goodies so that you can have a little cheat sheet to all of this. You

don't have to worry about scribbling notes and all of the things. So go ahead, go to luannaigara.com

forward slash goodies. It's there for you. Kate, my love adore you. I just love you to pieces.

I just love how you always bring so much insight to these conversations and this was an incredibly

helpful framework for understanding and attracting the clients that we are truly meant to serve.

So thank you, Kate, for showing up and giving us your time. I appreciate you and thank you for

showing up today. Decide to be excellent.

Thank you for joining me today. This podcast is a production of Luannaigara Inc. If you want to

know more about me, my books, or Luanna University, go to luannaigara.com. And if you are interested in

having window works help you with your next window treatment or awning project in the New York,

New Jersey Metro area, go to windowworksnj.com to learn more. Have an excellent day.