1159: Overheard: The CEO Mindset Every Interior Designer Has to Learn (Or Burn Out Trying)

Welcome to a well-designed business.

My name is Luanne Igarra and I'm so glad you found this podcast.

Together with my husband Vince and our partner Bill, we have grown our company Windowworks

from the ground up.

So I know and I understand the challenges you face in running your interior design business.

I also know that your talent alone isn't enough to ensure your success.

So on this podcast, we talk about strategies and practical steps to help you grow your business.

But make no mistake about it.

We have our share of fun here too, mixed in with those aha moments that I love so much.

This isn't fluff, nobody has time for that.

Whether you are a new interior designer or a seasoned designer, I am here to help you

create and to manage the kind of interior design firm that you dream of.

It's straight talk and it's action.

Are you ready?

Let's get started.

Hi, welcome to a well-designed business and another episode of Overheard.

If you're new to this series, Overheard is where you get to pull up a chair and drop

into a real conversation between me and some of the most thoughtful pros in our industry.

The thing about Overheard is, we usually take one topic and we talk it through.

It's the kind of honest behind the scenes talk that almost always happens off mic, at a

table somewhere, at a conference.

It's about the mindset shifts, the systems and sometimes the messy middle that turns

a creative into a CEO.

And today you're going to hear from four incredible women who've each worked closely

with one of my favorite colleagues, Desi Cresswell.

You know, Desi, she's been on the show several times and she's a co-author in my book, Volume

2, of a well-designed business, The Power Talk Friday, Experts.

Her specialty, helping you get out of overwhelm and into alignment with the role that you are

meant to be doing, the role of CEO in your business, and that's what today's conversation

is about.

Because you know, being an interior designer rarely happens by accident.

In fact, every designer I've ever met has been called to do this work.

You love it, you can't not do it.

But being a business owner, well, that does often happen by accident.

One day you wake up and realize you're not just designing homes, as if there's anything

just about doing that, by the way.

But instead, you're running payroll, you're managing people, you're, you know, fielding

invoices and answering 100 questions a day.

Well the women that you'll hear from today, Heather Peterson of Heather Peterson Design,

Jillian Richie at Chavaria of Jillian Richie Design, and Katie Cassal and Kat Benson of

Nest Interiors, are not only deeply talented designers, they're seasoned business owners.

Between them, they lead growing teams, manage complex projects, navigate partnerships, audits,

hiring decisions, and the responsibilities that come when you build a sustainable firm.

These are designers who have done the work and learned the lessons and are fully stepping

into their role as CEO.

We're going to talk today about learning to let go of control, clarifying roles, embracing

systems, and even defining what leadership looks like.

Because sometimes it's loud and decisive, and sometimes it's quiet and steady.

And as always, there's no sugar coating, right?

Just real insight from colleagues who have done the work.

We also dig into hiring, delegation, and team building.

And if you're ready to build your own exceptional team, you need to check out my hiring toolkit

bundle at luannigara.com forward slash store.

It is your comprehensive resource for hiring success.

Had a craft compelling job posting, asked the right interview questions, and create a

thorough evaluation process, developed in tandem with my cousin Eileen Hahn, who has more

than 40 years of consultancy experience in building extraordinary teams.

So whether you're growing from one to three, or from three and beyond, the toolkits give

you the structure and clarity you need to plan your hiring strategy so that you can invest

in your team and your success.

Alright, let's get to it.

Here's Heather, Jillian, Katie, and Kat.

Hey ladies, thanks so much for joining me on a well-designed business today.

Hi, Luann, this is Jillian Richie with Jillian Richie Design.

Hello, this is Kat Benson with Nest Interiors.

Hey, Luann, this is Heather from Heather Peterson Design.

Hi, this is Katie Kassau with Nest Interiors as well.

Alrighty, ladies, we are off to the races.

You know, that was a very good introduction.

You all did it.

You know, I told you, off air, no one has ever successfully completed that on the first

try.

And you guys not only did it on the first try, but I made you do it again until you did

it on the second try.

I don't know.

I have a particular group of brilliant women today, clearly.

So all right, today we are going to be talking about this CEO mindset, right, is how to cultivate

that, the a-ha's, the before and after of understanding of it more than just a word, right?

Like, you know, it's funny because I have to say I can remember it's going back a good

eight, nine, eight, eight, eight, probably the first or second year of the podcast, Sarah

Brennan.

You guys all listen to the show.

So you know who Sarah Brennan is.

And Sarah, you know, is the poster child for the show.

And she used to listen every single episode to do all the things on, on, on, do all the work

and all the things.

And it was funny because one day in that first year or so, I said something to the effective.

I mean, I'm sorry.

Are you the CEO or not?

And I, it was funny because I remember within like a couple of days, Sarah text me.

She's like, I changed my website to say Sarah Lynn Brennan CEO of Sarah Lynn Brennan

Interior.

And I was like, you go girl, you know what I mean?

And so now it's much more common, right?

Like I come from another and adjacent industry.

So it's like we own our stuff, you know what I mean?

And you guys, we got to bring you along and say you can do it and then you get permission

and you can do it and it's all good.

But what I know is, in my experience, there is that change, that moment, that mind shift

switch.

And each of you having work with Desi, have experienced that mindset shift because that's

is what Desi does.

She talks about like that shift.

So what I would love to know is for each of you to kind of just take me to that moment

in your business.

It might have been before you work with Desi.

It might have been during the time.

It might have had nothing to do with your work with Desi.

But that moment where you went from, oh, I, yes, I design homes and that's not so easy

to do.

But I'm actually running a business like this is a business that happens to design homes.

Who wants to start with that question and that like observation, that reflection on

your own journey.

I'm happy to start, Luanne.

I want to say first with Desi that I was at a kind of a stopping point in my business

where I felt like my business was running me, right?

And I think we all kind of got there and which is why we wanted to have the coaching and

just to feel like, and for me, it wasn't the clients and the projects and the workload.

It was truly in the back end.

And I was worried that it was me that was causing these issues with my staff and our hold-up

and feeling like I was this nucleus in the middle and like everything was just revolving

around me.

And if I went on vacation, everything shut down and it was just like how do we get to

this point where I can leave or I can be the brainchild to work on the big next marketing

steps and pushing the forward thinking of the business and not have to be mundane

with taking on everybody's extra tasks that they can't get done and be the person that's

answering every question.

And I think that the easiest answer was she's like, you already know what it is that you

need to do.

You're just telling me basically what I can give to you and you just have to have the

strength to start delegating tasks that are going to allow you to get into that new plan

that you want for yourself.

You know, it's funny, Jillian, because I just spoke at ASID Gather in Atlanta over the

summer of 2025 and it was funny because I did a whole workshop on, you know, like on

running your business and what you need to do to be profitable, yada, yada, yada.

And there was a gentleman that came up to me afterwards and he said, you know, I loved

your presentation.

You just, you really made me think, yada, yada.

He said, and I think if I take it to one sentence, what the last 90 minutes have been is

you're saying you're no longer the employee, you're the owner, you're the entrepreneur.

And you know, that's what I just heard and what you were saying, Jillian.

It's like you're doing all the things you're running around blah, blah, blah.

You know, you're quote unquote the CEO, but really are you when you, nothing can happen

without you because that's not CEO.

CEO is managerial as supervisoral and the CEO has their responsibilities, but not all

the way down to the, the background level of what makes the thing stay open, right, makes

the business go.

I love that, Jillian.

Thank you.

How about, you know, Kat or Heather or Katie, who else would like to take it, take us to

your moment where it was like this, this has got a change or this is my aha here.

Yeah, I'd love to.

This is Katie.

So we worked with Desi really after the COVID shift of things where life in your home blew

up and our business completely changed.

We started our business not having business degrees and not really having a plan.

And I think we realized after that, okay, we need a plan.

And Desi really helped us kind of really dig deep into our roles in our business.

And I think we realized just because you can do it all doesn't mean you should.

And trust in your team and trust in who you're bringing on to carry those roles and make

your business more successful.

Like Jillian said, you know, we want to be able to work on our business, not always work

in our business.

And I think that Desi really gave us the confidence to really hone in on that and kind

of just trust in our team.

So, okay.

Yeah.

And Kat, as the partner in nest interiors, a similar observation or other learnings from

it.

Very similar observations.

I think kind of piggybacking off of Jillian and Katie, both with having that confidence

and being a boss, like being someone's boss.

I think that was something I needed to work on with myself.

Just in any business, but especially our business.

And just being like, okay, I can delegate.

I can tell people what to do, because I'm burning the candle up both of the big cheese

now.

Yeah.

And I'm not comfortable with that.

And I'm still not.

But, you know, just this phase of life, we have young children, little kids.

We're having babies.

Like Katie and I both could not physically be doing everything anymore.

And if we wanted our business to succeed and continue, we had to delegate.

So it was kind of like, all right, Katie, you got to do it.

Yeah.

I love that because, you know, having, obviously you guys know, I've run a business for 40 plus

years.

And I can look back over that growth and I can look back over that before and after.

It's like, you know, it's, there's the moment where you're like, nobody else can do it

as good as me.

Yeah.

So that's why you don't delegate.

Yeah.

Then it becomes the moment of my God, by the time I teach you how to do it, I could just

get it done.

Yeah.

Right.

But then there becomes the moment of dang it.

That is doing the CEO work while I'm over here doing your job.

And you just finally get that realization that that is critical.

The business needs the CEO.

And so the CEO, you know, to some extent, we're all expendable.

But if it's your business, then you're not at the expendable one.

But anybody that's doing anything else, you know, just a cold, hard fact is expendable.

So teach them what they do, give them their job to do.

And also, they're so much happier.

And you give them the power and the autonomy to do the things that you hired them to do.

Right.

So Heather, how about you?

What's your observation in your aha in this area?

So I will say that I had a similar journey.

And I think our industry really rode a wave coming out of COVID.

And in the past year, my sort of next level, aha, was as that wave slowed down, I really

had to look at what does it mean to build a business on really deliberate terms when it

wasn't so reactive, sort of reactive to the climate.

And the thing that really brought it home, and this is a bit of a doozy, but I am in

the midst of a sales tax audit.

And it has been a pretty brutal experience, to be honest, but what it has really shown

me is that even once everything internally, you've sort of stepped into that CEO role, there

is a real level of responsibility externally.

And that I have real responsibilities to the state, you know, to these external forces.

And I think that when you are self-taught in business, as I am, and I think maybe the

rest of you are, also self-taught in design, there's so much to learn.

And so many different ways to sort of step up and step into that role.

And a lot of it does seem to be, you know, with clients, with your team, with growing

all of those internal systems.

And so my new level of CEO work is really finding those blind spots and making sure that

I am running a really solid business, legally, responsibly all of that.

And it's really made me see that I want to fight for this, and I want to be a really

solid business for the next decade.

Good for you.

So is it the type of thing where you were just not getting good advice from a bookkeeper

or a CPA, and you were not keeping accurate records, and it's not that you weren't paying

and you weren't complying, but it wasn't accurate, or is it literally an audit that they're

not going to find anything but the trauma of going through the audit, which, by the way,

is a real thing.

I'm going to bend through it, and I'm not being facetious.

Yes.

I would say both.

Definitely we found some things where there were gaps in our systems.

And I'm grateful for that knowledge and understanding.

But I think the real mindset thing here is to not be emotional about any of the findings,

and to just look at where the gaps were, and to create better systems, and to learn

from it.

You know what, I literally felt that in my body.

Like that is so amazing, Heather, and we're going to say it again out loud, right?

We all make mistakes in our business, whether it's a mistake with a client, it's a mistake

with a vendor, if it's a mistake with the government, and that take the emotion out

of it.

Right?

Like you can have your, you can have your moment.

You can have your moment on the bathroom floor crying.

You can.

You can.

But stand up.

Right?

Stand up.

Wipe it off.

And like go do the thing.

And you know, the crazy thing is what I love about your perspective on that, Heather, is

that when you have something like that that pulls you down and you look and you're like

holy crow, like the sales tax thing isn't buttoned up, you know, the government doesn't

really care.

They don't like, you know, like they just pay your money and let's move it on.

Like you're not walking around with the like the Hester Prim, like, you know, letter A

on you or whatever.

Know what it's over and the thing is people carried in their own head.

And so what I love, Heather, is that you've just moved through to the learning lesson of

it.

And just like this one will happen again, because now I know better, right?

Yes.

Good for you.

That is, you know what?

It's not easy.

And I feel like I never mean this condescending when I say it.

It's just a truth that I think, I've said this before, this is not at all condescending.

I've never met a designer that is a designer by accident.

It's like, I love this.

This is going to be great.

I want to do this.

I want to make these people's houses amazing, right?

Like every designer I've ever met is like, I have to do this.

I love doing this, right?

Now, you might get 15 years in and say, I don't want to do it anymore.

That's a different story, right?

The thing is, I think that, and I don't mean this condescending, I think the type of work

that it is, what makes you, like I always say, your superpower is your Achilles heel.

And the superpower of that passion and compassion and that sympathy and that empathy for that

homeowner, wanting them to have the best that you can possibly navigate for them.

The Achilles heel is, everything feels like a stomach punch.

Everything is like, oh, my God, I must be bad.

I must be this and that.

And it's like, for you, Heather, to be like, look, I got to process it without the emotion.

I have to just look for the lesson and go on.

That is not a normal thing in this industry.

And so high five to you.

So thanks.

And I will just say, none of us are designers by accident, but I feel a little bit like

a business owner by accident.

Oh, you're totally, every one of you are business owners by accident, by the way.

Well, let's say 80% of you.

There are for sure designers who set out to start an empire.

I think a lot of us grew as I did reactively.

And we work hard every day to learn all the things, but there are so many things to learn.

That's right.

And so giving yourself some grace when you didn't get all the way there in a category is part

of it.

But it's not easy.

And I really, really, you know, somebody listening might be going through something

right now, a big quote unquote failure and, you know, only processing it as a failure,

as opposed to as a lesson that you just stand up.

You wipe it off.

You do it better the next time the slate is clean, period.

There's nobody keeping track on the mistakes in your business.

And it's the case is that's the only way we learn, right?

That's right.

We put in processes and systems until you make that epic failure and it costs you money

where you're like, okay, we have to change this.

Well, every process ever was built out of a thing that went wrong, right?

Like, it's like, how do we not have this happen again?

Right?

It's like, I mean, you know, art, like, listen, we got on the air and you're like, hey,

my email notification didn't tell me Eastern time zone.

And I'm like writing a note.

And what did I look at you guys?

I'm like, every day, day, there's something to fix.

Yeah.

Right?

It's like, every day, day.

I love it.

All right.

Okay.

So here's the thing.

I am curious, you know, for Kat and Katie here, you know, you got to run a business with

two CEOs.

Yeah.

So do you have the great fortune of having different superpowers or are you two CEOs

that are creative and visionary in which case it's like, yeah, who runs the ship?

So how does that work for you guys?

Do you want me to take this one?

Go girl.

You go girl.

Yeah.

This is not actually very common for me to like, take the leap.

It's a very, what I was just scared of, I just say, I feel like we compliment each other

super well.

Katie and I were lucky that we worked together at another firm in the past as, you know,

co-workers, not business owners.

But we were able to really kind of see how each other works and create a really good

friendship before we ever kind of dived into the business side of things, which in hindsight,

I think was good.

And we both have really, really leaned into playing up each other's strengths and weaknesses.

And we're very different, very, very different.

But in the beginning, I think that was hard for me personally speaking for myself.

Katie is like a superhero, work ethic, she's strong, she's decisive, she's amazing.

And I was always like, keeping up, you know, like, I got to be like Katie, she's so awesome.

And then it was kind of like, okay, I'm exhausted, I cannot be Katie.

She is a superhero, but I'm tired.

And so I have to kind of be like, okay, wait a second, what am I good at?

Who am I really, especially as a business owner, and what are my strengths?

And so I think we've really kind of leaned into that of playing up each other's strengths

and weaknesses.

She's a lot stronger than I am.

I'm a little more quiet and soft spoken, but we've really kind of used that, I think,

to our advantage on the business side of things, and on the personal thing when it comes

to our team and kind of how we work with clients and just kind of all around, but it's been

a learning experience for sure, but yeah, we're definitely very different.

And I think that's why it works, honestly.

And what I think here, the lesson is getting drilled down to what each of you do well,

and almost piggybacking on what Heather said, not feeling bad about that you don't do the

things that Katie does well, like just like Uncle, it's like me and Vinnie.

Vinnie's numbers and operations, and I'm sales and marketing, you know what I mean?

And he's still Vinnie, so he's the son of a gun.

You know what I mean?

And every once in a while, he'll look at me like, why can't you just?

And I'll be like, oh, okay, why can't I just like stop, right?

But it's my husband and I'm me who is a lunatic, so I don't get like, yeah, maybe I should

be able to.

I'm like, dude, that is your thing, you know, like even in our personal life, right?

It's like he will say to me, he doesn't say it anymore, but he used to say, you know,

you really should understand how to do all the insurances.

What if I'm not here one day?

And I'm like, dude, like, you know, I'm 25, you're 40, you know, that day is 100,000

years from now.

And when it happens, I will figure it out, but I'm not going to like go understand our

insurance complexity with four kids and three houses and four businesses, you know, who

covers what?

Just because you might kick the can sometime ever, I'm like, that's like you should make

all the lunches, do all the laundry and take all the kids back and forth to their lessons

because one day I might not be here to do it.

Stop, right?

You probably said hard pass on that.

Yeah.

So the thing is though, I love that you came to that moment, Kat, because I think that's

a telling thing to not judge yourself versus the other person in your world, whether it's

your spouse, your business partner, whoever, but it sounds like it took you a minute because

you tried to be Katie for a while, it sounds like I did, and I still would love to be Katie.

I mean, I'd love to be Kat, but yeah, well, and I think it, yeah, it wasn't an easy journey,

but it was definitely part of our journey and my journey personally of just learning

that and leaning into who I am and not fighting against it so much and just kind of leaning

into it and being like, this is, you know, what I can bring to the table, the best that

I can, and this is what Katie can bring to the table, and then we kind of make a magic

cut.

But you know what it is?

I think what it is is, I think Vin and I, any two business partners could potentially

struggle with this, right?

Like, why aren't you doing things the way I do it?

And why don't you think that's important, and I think it's important, and you don't

know how to do this, and I'm the only one who does this, and I'm the only one who does

it well, right?

Like, that's all the, what the thing is, because you're, each of you are carrying a weight,

right?

Yeah.

And it's like there could be the judgment that I have to carry this big weight, and you

don't.

And then what happens is you don't see the weight that the other person is carrying because

your blinders don't allow.

But I think that was probably what set Vin and I up to be good partners in business was

because, you know, he's from another generation.

There wasn't a chance he was like doing school lunches or wiping diapers.

Like, it's just, it's like, that's your thing, you, you're the girl, you do that.

You know what I mean?

Like, it's just something different.

He's your father's ages for crying out loud, right?

And so for him, it was a very clear separation of church and state in the house.

And so when we would have those moments in the business where he expected me to do something,

I'd be like, dude, you don't carry this weight at home.

I don't carry this weight here.

You don't carry this weight here.

Like, it was in the beginning, we were able to do that.

Like, oh, these are your rocks, carry them around and they stink and they're heavy.

But I got rocks too.

They are heavy.

And I'm carrying them.

So, but for, for, for women partners or any kind of partners that you don't have that

personal life that's already mirroring that, it could be tough.

So I'm glad that you guys overcame it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just speak to that, Lewin.

This is Katie.

Kat, I think after 11 years, Kat and I have realized that we are totally two different people.

I am very swerly.

Just came to that.

Very swerly.

I am like big picture, like throwing ideas around and Kat's like, whoa.

Kat, we did it.

I'm detailed.

Let's focus.

Which is ironic because I'm the only one out of the two of them.

One of us that is technically diagnosed with ADHD, technically, technically, I probably

should be.

Yes.

Yeah.

But see, that just makes you more prepared to manage it because you get therapy and you know,

you manage it.

The rest of us.

Whatever.

Yeah.

She's chill.

This is why she's chill and I am not chill.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I love that.

That's awesome.

I think we all slightly are ADHD and our jobs, just like the phone calls and the text messages

and like dealing with the site work and then getting back to the office and having 17

things in a row that is really out of our control and we just have to figure it out and

jump in.

I think it's like great for our personalities.

It really is.

It really is because you know what's funny is I was saying you guys off air that like one

of my employees, like looked at me like three years ago, she's like, wait, you're not

diagnosed.

I was like, yeah, I'm ADHD.

And so of course, now the more I read about it, I'm definitely the poster child.

And what one of the positive attributes to your point, Jillian is that in chaos, you

think clearly, like I have known this my entire life.

There is an emergency.

I don't care if there's eight of us kids that were 10 years old and somebody fell off

the bike and cracked their head.

I'm the one who was like, okay, this is what we're going to do.

You run to that house.

You knock on that door.

You do this.

Whether it's all the way to our business, you know, it's I always say at window works

on the CCO, the chief complaint officer, right?

Because there'll be a point where a project or a job or a situation will reach boiling

point.

And I love it.

And he's got a thousand amazing attributes.

But he will just get to the point where like, boom, that is nope.

And he will lose his stuff.

And he will just, and I'll be like, okay, how about you just get that to me.

And then I like literally like, I just slice it up in my mind.

And I'm like, okay, this is the big put.

This is where it leverages.

This is where they're weak.

This is where we're strong.

Okay.

Now come at it.

And so I think you're right, Jillian, that there are some professions and lanes in any

profession that, you know, the superpowers of an ADHD brain are real things.

It's, you know, it's not a bad thing.

You know, like 35 years ago it was like, I'll get the kid with ADHD.

It's like, no, I'm like, I'm my granddaughter.

I'm like, where's your cape girl?

I know.

We are the ADHD or something like our house.

Yeah.

So.

Luann, I'd love to talk a little bit more about Cat and Katie's like process with the,

with the two of them, but also how it reflects in probably Heather and I's business with

a single owner and choosing your team, right?

So I found it really hard to choose the right team from the start.

It was always kind of like this nemesis of mine because I always felt like I was choosing

a talent or I was choosing an energy and I liked it and I'm family with these people.

And then all of a sudden, I realized that like I'm picking up their slack and I'm not

getting what I want out of it cheerly because I was choosing the wrong personality type.

And their behavior of like, okay, she's filling in these gaps for me.

That was something I had to learn later.

Like I didn't get the perfect assistant literally until two years ago.

And then all of a sudden, I was like, wow, I can do so much because this person is

all of these things that I can't be.

And now we have this like rhythm that is so much more productive and really it's such

a great feeling like when things click and you finally get it.

And even when we make mistakes, all of us make mistakes, you know, and everybody has

life that has to filter in and be managed, but it's a wow moment.

And I think it's so cool that you guys were actually able to open a business with someone

that has that like balance and that yin and yang because I do also have another business

with my husband.

So we went on like that mirrors completely for me.

And so there's so much that I have to just be like, we're going to save our marriage

and I'm going to be the wife and I'm going to take that on and it's going to be okay.

And tomorrow is a new day.

Well, and that's true.

And like, you know, so you guys have figured it out.

And once you figure it out between the two of you, it makes it easier to understand how

to duplicate that with the team.

But to Jillian's point, Heather, how have you done that?

Have you figured it out like we always say on the show, you got to hire for your weaknesses.

Don't hire the person like you.

You don't need two squirrels running around the gosh darn tree, right?

So how have you tackled that, Heather?

The big answer to that is hiring a director of operations.

And interestingly, when I did, I was hiring for, I think one of the challenges in this

business is you can kind of cut the pie a lot of different ways and you can combine sort

of different responsibilities into different roles, which can make it challenging.

I mean, it leaves it a little open to find the right person and to work a little bit

with their strengths.

But when I hired my director of operations, after I hired her, I did one of those sort

of quadrant evaluations where you put, you know, you're, you know, anyway, what I love

to do, what I bad at, what I don't ever want to do again, no matter how much money in

the world you give me.

Exactly.

And every single thing that was in my, don't like it, not good at column was Kate.

Yeah, that's the job description there.

Yes.

And it is funny in hindsight that I, I kind of got their backwards.

But now I find that to be a really, really helpful tool.

And for a long time, I was really sort of jealous of people who had partnerships like

Katie and Kat do and really liked the idea of like sharing the joys, but also the burdens

and not sort of being alone in it.

And it's taken me years.

My director of operations has been with me almost five years.

And I finally see that though it's not official on the sort of like LLC paperwork, I really

do have a partner in the business and really like allowing the team in has been huge.

And this idea of, we all have our rocks to carry.

I think that's what you said, Luan.

And I think I've for a bag of poop, yeah, yes, that's right.

And I've always felt like I had to hold all of that myself and allowing a sort of,

allowing them to hold their rocks to has really meant that we could do more, be more,

accomplish more.

And it also uses the burden on the business owner.

And just freeze up space to do the things that you're best at, that you love the most.

And I just love getting to do it together.

Yeah.

Well, and that is the essence of CEO work, right, is freeing you to do the things that

you are best served doing your business is best served by you being the one to do it.

But with that to all of your points is you've got to find the other person who's good at

the other things and that you can trust and delegate those things to.

No, I love that.

Thank you for bringing that up, Jillian.

Jillian, I want to go back to you because you had said on your intake form something that,

you know, just like, you know, hits me between the eyes is like my mantra is, you know,

things don't get easier when you avoid the tough conversation.

They get harder.

And I don't know if any of you have been listening long enough to go back to like the first or second

year of the podcast and I had Lee Cockrell on the show and I brought him up a thousand

times because I have lived this way.

I am the person who will say, oh, there's an elephant in this room.

Oh, let's just move that big fat thing over to the middle of the room and let's just

have a chat about it because I know it makes it harder when you avoid it.

But Lee Cockrell, he was the executive vice president for worldwide Disney operations.

Okay.

Now, there's very few companies that match the service level of Disney, right?

And one of the things he said, he coined, he put this in a phrase, Jillian, that I know

will resonate with you because to me, it was like, am I God?

That's exactly how I've always thought about it.

But that's such a concise way to say it.

And what he said is, as the CEO, as the person in charge, no matter what it is, if it's

your charge of your house with your kid or your charge of your business with 20 people,

it's when you only do the easy things, everything else gets harder.

But when you do the hard things, everything else gets easier, right?

And I was like, oh, my God, that is like, so talk to me about your learning lesson with

this particular concept, Jillian.

Yeah, you know, the number one thing everybody talks about in design is like, oh, I just,

I love how glamorous it is and it's so fabulous and they come up to me and they're like,

I want to do your job.

And it's very interesting, right?

It's hard to have a good read on like, how to respond.

And I'm in the retail space now with my husband, we just opened up a coffee shop so we're

very visible and the town kind of followed us on Facebook and it's been really fun and

lovely.

But then when they say these things to you and you're just like, if you only knew how hard

it really is, you probably wouldn't want to do it at all.

And it's funny because we are kind of glorified client liaison that try to take all of the

difficulty and the baggage and the weight of decision making and to the issues that happen

and this vision that you have that doesn't always come across in the end because things

happen on site that we can't control and then it's problem solving.

And so I always tell my team, it's like 10% design, 90% of figuring out how to execute

and keeping everybody happy and chill in the way that makes it enjoyable to get through

this process that can sometimes be two years long.

I mean, we just build really big houses that can take forever.

And I stopped immediately thinking that everything was a problem.

You know, mistakes happen.

And I was just like, we're not going to think that this is a problem.

We're just going to look for a solution.

And the big thing is that, you know, we had to have hard conversations with clients and

with our staff just to make sure that everybody involved understood that this isn't going

to be a perfect process.

And I think that, you know, as a mom, that is one of the number one things that I am trying

to teach my kids that we can't comfort you at every moment of the way and the clients

are going to be like that too.

It's not going to be easy.

There's going to be things that you see and we're going to have to rip off that bandaid

and find the happy medium.

And then guess what?

This magic thing happens in design and I'm sure all of us at this table have had this

where happy accidents actually create the best part of the design project.

And you just, you can't always just feel like the solution is being fixed.

It's just we're working towards this big picture of that in the end.

It's going to be amazing.

And you just have to think forward and not get hung up on all the little tediousness

that happens along the way.

Well, I love this perspective and it's funny because if my current, one of my current

chairman of the board listens to this episode, she will hear herself in this.

Because about three weeks ago, she left me a message and just feeling horrible.

Just like, you know, with that moment, you're just beaten down.

You feel like your teeth have been kicked in, you know, difficulty in multiple areas.

And she's strong and she's smart and she's seasoned.

And I'm sure that she even when she was leaving me the message knew that she would get

through it, but ultimately was just like, you know, what is it?

Do I just have to get over it and realize there's always going to be problems?

And I was like, ding, ding, ding, like that is it, you know?

And I ended up saying to her, I said, hey, want to hear the problem?

I had in my business today.

And I don't normally do that with chairman of the boards, right?

It's like it's, it's not my therapy session.

It's yours.

But in that moment, it was she, like literally, she's like, oh, okay.

So, you know, like I'm like, you know, I was, I literally, like that day before, I literally

set to my team.

I'm done.

It's, it's I'm done.

Like close it up.

Like I have two other businesses, I don't need to do this.

Like I could spend my time in exciting windows, I could go back and spend more energy in

window works, like, and they just look at me.

They're like, really?

No, not really.

I'm going to stand up again and I'm going to get through it and we're going to figure

it out, you know, but it is, it is, it's, it's like, I think Sandra Funk one time said

on the podcast, it's a decision every day, right?

And I said that to you guys in Kansas City, right?

Can you Katie?

Yeah.

And my thing that day, like it ain't for sissy's, don't think it's, you know, it's a joy

ride.

And just like you say to all of your clients, it isn't just picking pain and pillows.

Guess what?

It isn't just picking pain and pillows.

It's actually hard work what you do.

And getting up and expecting things not to go wrong is to your point, Jillian, the wrong

part.

That's a defeating, you're, you're literally going to be disappointed every day.

But it's like, I'm probably, I'm a promise diver.

Like this is what we do.

We saw a problem study.

What are the problems?

Oh, there's no problems today.

Yay.

One day at a 365.

Let's have a margarita.

Like whatever.

Right?

Awesome.

Okay.

So I have a question for you, Heather.

You talked about in your intake form, you know, the decision to move into a signature

style.

It seems a little on surface, a departure.

But I'm assuming that it led to more revenue and more profits by having the courage to

do that.

So talk to me.

Why did you choose to list list that as one of your CEO, you know, learnings of leaning

into your signature style and what did it do for you?

So I will say, obviously, that is on the creative side of things as opposed to sort of like

backend systems, except that it isn't.

And I think that is what is really key.

Because I got into this pretty organically for many, many years, you know, like most designers

starting out, I said yes to everything.

And I really worked hard to channel the clients and to, I saw an opportunity in each project

to learn a new style.

And I love a learning curve.

So it was exciting, you know, every project brought something new.

But because every project brought kind of everything new, everything was hard.

And one thing that I've learned in digging into signature style is that actually when you

set up some constraints, you create a lot more space for freedom in other areas.

So to be more specific, we did some work as a team where we literally just went through

and said, what do we like, what do we want to do all of the time?

And I think there are lots of firms who operate that way always.

But when you've got a really broad range, I think it can be helpful to sort of like dial

in to who are we, what do we do, what does it look like?

I think it's vulnerable because you're putting yourself out there and saying, you know, this

is who I am in a industry that is so visual and so public.

And there's a lot of trends and sort of popular ideas out there.

And it can be vulnerable to go against them.

However, when we built a library that really held all of the things that we do love

and that we consider our signature style, our process got more efficient, more fulfilling

and allowing ourselves to do things that we knew worked all the time in certain areas,

like let's say, you know, light fixtures that we know always work, meant that there was

more creative energy to push something in another part of the design.

It has been really great to feel like people are coming to us for what we do and not just

how we do it for a long time.

We were really known for our process.

People love that we draw them out, that there's sort of education components, all of those

things.

But it led to me always thinking that people wanted me for what I could do for them, which

of course is true.

But at the end of the day, we finally also are working for people who want us for what

we can do, period full stop.

Love it.

So, Katie and Kat, you were out at Cozantino, the event hosted by seasonal living.

Does this sound like your mission, vision, values, exploration, does it sound at all familiar

to you?

Absolutely.

It sounds exactly like that.

I think that's one thing we worked on with Desi to kind of piggyback off.

Heather is really trusting our vision and our brand and who we are.

And there's wonderful designers in Kansas City.

A lot of them are our friends and we love them, but they are different than nest and what

we bring to people.

I think really understanding our authentic brand and what that means.

I think has really helped us while we don't do a signature style, maybe like Heather does.

We do the same components in every project and that's approachable design, really being

able to live on the pieces and durable materials.

Those are things that are just non-negotiable for us.

And I think it's because we grew up in small towns with lots of pets and we have kids

and we have chaos and we want our designs and what we do for people to really represent

us as well.

And so those are things that we have found just are non-negotiable and that's our brand

and that's what we provide.

And I think if clients come to us looking for something different, we have realized, again,

of working with Desi that we can say no if we don't feel like we're going to really

jive in the design process.

So yeah.

Yeah.

Now I love it.

I mean, you can hear the deep work that you've done, Heather, on it, right?

And literally the entire time I'm like, when I really implore designers to spend time with

mission vision values, I know a lot of times I can see the blank stairs from the stage

and I try and like, you saw me, you and Kat saw me struggle to come up with an example,

you know, of it because it isn't always this like, you know, Apple.

We're going to reinvent electronics for the world.

You know what I'm saying?

It is something that is, it doesn't need to be this thing that you would put on a billboard.

It just needs to be a guiding light and a guiding star for you.

And that's what you've created, Heather, by doing this exercise and really figuring

it out.

I love listening to me, like I can't design a room the way you do.

I love the way you find the crazy things.

But like if I say to my chairman of the boards, once I say to them 20 times in a year,

so we didn't know but it knows the difference between that light and the other light.

Just pick a light and move it on, right?

Like just pick a light.

If that light worked in the last 10 houses, it'll work in this house too.

Believe me.

You know what I mean?

Like the consumer, unless it's the statement piece to your point, Heather, what I was

hearing was, if we know certain elements work, they're going to go in on the board.

Almost all the houses.

But that leaves you time for the special, the focal point, the thing that isn't you're

not putting in all the houses so that like the garden variety human isn't seeing all

those layers or seeing the big thing.

And what I love about that too, from a practical standpoint, is if you have, you know, I'm not

saying it's the same darn light or the same Dan sofa.

But if it's five lights, seven lights, ten lights that are your go-to and ten sofas

or five sofas, what happens is now you're concentrating your purchases and you're getting

better pricing and you're becoming more important to that vendor instead of I bought 40 sofas

this year from 40 different vendors and nobody gives a rat's butt about XYZ design firm

because all they see is one ten thousand dollar sofa a year as opposed to concentrating

and becoming, you know, the whole reason we were at Cozantino and that seasonal living

sponsored that was to get that brand relationship real and human and, you know, when you become

the human face and not just the name of your firm and, you know, the dollar bills are attached

to it, it makes a difference, right, it makes a difference.

This is Heather again.

I think it's also like we do, we shop a lot of vintage which is a big part of our signature

style and obviously that's a little less about sort of buying power, but it is about strengthening

relationships.

So the more that I shop from, you know, my same local vendors, the more they are sourcing

to my style and the more they are letting me know, you know, oh, I got something for you,

this is something for you, which also leads to, yes, and it leads to efficiency and also it means

that we're outsourcing some of the labor and getting the best stuff, right, exactly, exactly.

So I would say I'm going to transition now, but before I transition to some of these, you know,

big burning questions, you know, CEO questions, is there anything that anybody wants to share

in that, like the back weeds part, the back end part, like, of, like, Jillian, you started the

conversation about hiring the right people and understanding that, understanding, like, you know,

one of the things that I often find is that I will be talking with a designer and usually

a typically less seasoned designer, not around the bush, not having had their, their teeth kicked in

yet.

And they'll be like, oh, I'm going to, you know, make my first hire, you know, hiring a design

assistant and I'm like, okay, what do you want that design assistant to do?

Oh, I need help with, you know, answering the inquiries and I need help with, you know,

getting the tiles, you know, back and forth from the tile shop and I need help with, you know,

scheduling my appointments and I need help and I'm like, hmm, yeah, that's actually an administrative

assistant and you will be much better served if you advertise for an admin assistant because

a design assistant is going to think they're going to design and you didn't say any designing

things in that, right?

And so I think that, you know, we need to as CEOs and this is for every business, take

very clearly who it is that we need in that seat.

What is it that they're going to do, whether you do the quadrant exercise or what, but then

to your point, Jillian, and this is, you're not hiring somebody who you get along with,

you need to get along with it, but if you're looking for your personality type,

you're going to have, like I said, two of you with squirrely brains.

So any final thoughts and employees and team on boarding and understanding that role is the

CEO and delineating that I'm, you know, doing something that's good for my business, not necessarily

that somebody I'm going to, you know, have coffee and tea with every Saturday on our day off.

Thoughts there.

It's Jillian here. I have not necessarily thoughts on what to do, but if you are starting out and

doing it, one thing that was so helpful is just to create that hierarchy. Put it in a plan.

Like don't, don't actually just wait and hire and then hire somebody else when you get,

because figuring it out in, in live time when those people are expecting you to train them and

you're supposed to have the answers, like you can't grow and it was so helpful to just kind of sit

down and say that, like we have to have, you know, administrative assistant that can then kind of

balloon into director of apps that are doing ordering and doing this and then it has to, you know,

pile on down to the designer and that designer also needs an assistant because in theory, you know,

everybody is going to get to a point where the work is going to get so overloaded and then what

happens and you have to have that game plan figured out. So that way when you create these lead

positions, then you can start hiring the support staff that's going to keep everybody afloat

because if you find yourself pigeonholing everything through you and then you get overwhelmed,

well, what happens when it goes down the ladder and you're pigeonholing everything to your team

and they get overwhelmed and so I just think it's really good as a designer starting out and

creating a hiring plan that you're not looking at the right now, you're looking at that five-year

plan and you're saying to yourself, okay, this is the person I need to hire and this is next and

this is how it's going to break down and there's sources out there that help us with this. So take

advantage of it. Well, and it's funny because you're recalling to me an exercise that a business coach

of mine did with me about two and a half years ago and Gustavo, he said to me, he goes, we're going

to make the org chart. We're going to make the org chart. So you've got this, you've got the finance

arm, you've got the sales arm, you've got the marketing arm, you've got the operations arm. He said,

and you know, I want you to go back and literally list every job that gets done each of these

tracks and he said, and I want you to put someone's name next to everyone who's doing it and he said,

and at the point, there's a point in your business where your name is showing up in all tracks

and maybe your right hand person's name is showing up in all the tracks. But to your point,

Jillian, he's explained to me that ultimately, ideally, someone is going to, depending on how big

your company gets, someone is going to own each of these tracks and technically there is like

the CMO, the COO, the CFO, this is exactly that thing. And he said, so don't worry about now

that like Mariali's name is showing up in all five. Don't worry about that your name is showing up,

that Diana's name is showing up. He said, but as to your point, as you hire, you'll start to say,

oh, okay, we've got only me doing one thing and Mariali doing one thing in this track and we've

got Diana doing five things. So what would it take to get us to out of here? Does she need a

support person? Like, it helps you figure out where you're going to go. And the other thing that

made sense to me when I was visualizing it was like if you think about like a basketball team,

you know, you think about like, you know, an eighth grade basketball coach takes whatever kids

shows up and he tries to make a point card out of one, a forward out of another, right? But like a

major league basketball team is like, you could be the best athlete in the world, but what I need

is a point card and you're not a point card. So I'm not picking you in the draft, right? So it's

like to your point, Jillian, it's understand where you are, but where you want to go. And then your

your choices along the way reflect it because you're not just like, by the way, here's a bunch of

great people and what work can they do? It's like you're hiring intentionally. I love that. I love

that. That's awesome. Oh, Heather, go ahead. You have something to add to that? Yeah, I was just

going to say that one thing that has really helped us to make sure that people are kind of staying

like right buds and seeds was when we went to tiered billing. And I know some designers do flat

fees and this wouldn't necessarily apply then, but we do hourly billing and my rate is different

than a senior designer is different than a design assistant. And it's really clarifying because we

are a bunch of helpers who are highly conscientious. Everybody is willing to do anything. And I feel

really strongly that like, I'm not above anything, but my billable rate is. And so I should not be

returning samples as much as I'm happy to do it. And our director of operations is not billable.

And so the clarity of sort of like what kind of work should fall under there. She should not be

doing billable work. Right. Exactly. Exactly. So anytime I think like, like, oh, I'm happy to do that,

but I might be like mucking it up by getting in there. Then I think like, can I bill the client

my rate for this work? And if the answer is no, then like, I got to get out of the way. Good for you.

I love that. I'm never a big fan of all the different rates, but that that clarity is worth it.

You have some to add to that cat. I just yeah, that was like a aha moment to me. You had an aha.

Yeah, just in just in my own head, not necessarily like billing like that, but just in my own head of

like, would I bill this or is this worth my, you know, hourly rate? I think that's such a genius way

to think of it and to kind of break it down internally. I think that's so smart because we are

a small team and we are like you said, we're big helpers. We're all all in. We'll do whatever

help each other out, which I think is great. But I do think there's times when, you know,

the business talks and you need to be like, that doesn't make sense for me to be doing that.

That's genius. Katie, you want to add to that too? Yeah. I mean, I feel like we've evolved over time

of what the roles we have in our business. I think after COVID, we panicked and we said we just

need to hire all these designers and that's what we need. And we've, you know, we've had some

ebbs and flows of what that looks like. But I think we've come to realize that adding a bunch of

designers was not the answer. And so we've definitely learned kind of from mistakes of how we've

done it and feeling good with kind of the roles that we have currently. So, yeah. Yeah. That, that,

that, you know, cats, right? That's like the clarity of those guardrails, Heather. It's,

it's very powerful. Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah. It's like literally just your own, you know,

check on it, right? Go ahead, Julian. Coaching the team too, just about what their time is worth

because, you know, I have people at the time that like, oh, I have to, you know, go get the sample

picked up for our meeting. And I'm like, a messenger is $25. So like, focus about, you know,

recoaching the people that are working for you too, that they're valuing their own time.

And that they're creating systems in place that it's not left to the last minute or they have,

you know, a plan B execution to ensure that we're getting what we need on time, but they're doing

it thoughtfully with the right players and the right price point to save everybody time and money.

I love it. You know, it's funny. It's, it's not the exact point, but the analogy,

it's a complimentary point. There was a show that we did 100 years ago with Tory Alexander.

And it wasn't that like, do you know like, if you should be doing this job or not based on your

billable, which that clarity is awesome, but it was that she as a business owner is looking every

team member knows their billable hours goal, what it should be per week. And it's depending

on your role in what you are, you maybe you have to be 20, maybe you have to be 60, maybe you have

to be, you know, not 60, maybe 60 percent or whatever it is. But she looks at it every day.

She looks at it every day and the clarity from her in that podcast episode and we'll link it in

the show notes was that she's got bills to pay. She's the CEO and bills only get paid if the

billable work is getting done. And she said, but individuals on your team, they have lots of

things that they have to do. And she said, there would be times where I would get to a Wednesday.

And we're maybe as a company supposed to have logged, I'm just going to take a number,

40 billable hours by Wednesday morning between all the people. And I would look and we would have

five. And so it's not that people are out at lunch, but they're doing activities that are not

billable and they're not worried about making payroll on Friday or they're not worried about, you

know, paying the insurance on Friday. And so she said, so then I would when I find that out on

Wednesday morning, I walk out and I look at everybody and go switch to billable. Just like you have

billable work that has to be done, but you individually Sally have decided I'm going to do that

on Thursday. And Susie has decided I'm going to do it next week because I'm going to do this. And,

you know, you know, Mabel is doing it. And it's like everybody's in their own box, but they're not

really realizing how that contributes to the financial health of that business, that business,

you know, you don't get the extra hours back the next week. Her business model runs on

X amount of billable hours per week in the combination. All of your businesses do, whether you know

or not, just saying, okay. And she knows that if you don't make all the billable hours in that week,

you're not, you don't get an extra whole week the next week to do it. You lose that income.

Literally, it's gone. See you by, right? So that's a good companion episode to listen to with that

with all of this conversation. It's a good secondary aha. Love it. Okay, ladies, here's the thing.

You can answer any one of the three questions, whichever one resonates with you most.

What's one thing you used to believe about being a business owner that you now know isn't true?

Or what advice would you give to the designer who's stuck, still stuck doing it all, but knows

something has to change is feeling that grumbling. Or finish the sentence, I finally felt like a CEO

when. So who wants, and you could take the same sentence, the same question as somebody else,

but who wants to start and which, which question resonates with who?

Go ahead, Heather. I will give some advice to a designer who's stuck doing it all that knows

something has to change. This was a thing I really learned the hard way, but there are so many

different ways to get the support that you need. It doesn't need to be hiring a full-time person

or even a part-time person. There are so many resources out there for support, and I think first

you need to figure out which parts of your business don't require you, or where you would benefit

most from outside expertise, and then you go find that. Whether it is a virtual assistant or a

fractional CFO or anything in between, there are lots of non-traditional ways to do it to bolster

a small team. I love it. That's exceptional advice, Heather. Thank you. Thank you. Who else has a

question that they want to tackle here? I can piggyback on Heather's, this is Jillian, and say,

you know, I actually just recently got involved with the Dan Sullivan course, and if you guys aren't

familiar, it's really, really interesting, and it was really empowering. I read a lot, and for

whatever reason it's so important, and it resonated to exactly what Heather said, which is the who

not how phenomenon, and it's so important as a business owner that you really do look for the right

who's to make sure that you are being supported, but it's mostly because you don't even know who

you can be until you have the right team surrounding you and building you up because you're not

graded everything. I'd like to say that I am perfect, and I am the best designer in the world,

and guess what I am not, and I think that we all think in our bubble that we can do that job better,

because guess what? When we were starting out, we had to. We had to do it all, and we had to do the

drawings, and you know, I can be on a Zoom call with my drawing team, and either one will get stuck,

and I'm like, oh, I can still figure this out, and I'm like telling them how to do it virtually,

and it's like, okay, wait, this isn't your every day anymore. You don't, on this system,

you don't work in it, and so like don't pretend to be the expert, so it's like you got it, and then

you have to trust, and it's okay that people make mistakes, so you just now need to regear your

strength on checking, and making sure that there's a balance of that information getting out

to them to the world, and I think that that was a new learning experience for me, to like, now it's

not about doing the work, it's about checking to make sure the work is perfect before it gets sent out.

Yeah, I love that, and that who can do this for me is, I can't remember the name of the book,

but is that, he wrote a book where he's like, it's called Who Not How by Daniel.

Who Not How? And the thing is the story in that book about the CEO that decided to clean the

gutters on his roof, right? Yeah, it's like, I don't want to pay somebody $300 to clean the gutters

on my roof, because I can do that, but meanwhile they fell off, broke his back, and then was at a work

for six months. Oh, okay, yeah, you're right, you saved $300, pal. Good job.

Good for you. Right, yeah. So I am famous for Who Not How? I like, literally, I'm like, who else

can do this? Like, I am happy to offload it, but it is something that I remember my friend Madeline

Recray taught me years ago, way before I heard about Dan's book and read that book, but it is a

freeing aha moment when you're just like, who else? And for me, there was a defining moment.

I'm not going to go through the story. I've gone through it on the podcast before, but she literally,

I was like, no, there's nobody else. Like, I was in the middle of a crisis at a speaking

engagement, yada yada, and I'm like, no, there's nobody else. And she's like, who else can do this

thing? And I'm like, and I finally, look, I'm like, you want to do it? She's like, no, who else?

And I'm like, you know, there's nobody else. Here we are. We're in the middle of Chicago. I got

no help. And ultimately, she had to ask me that question five times. Who, who, who? And finally,

I was like, wait a second, Kim in New Jersey at Windowworks is flying tonight to Chicago and

is coming to my presentation in the morning. And there's a printer right across the street.

And it's only 330. And she can get it printed and she can bring it to me. Because like,

at the last minute, I found out that I was supposed to bring the handouts. And I was like,

needed a hundred copies of a handout. And I was like, I'm sorry, it's 330. I've got a keynote

at four. And I'm doing your keynote in a different location the next day at 10 a.m. And I was like,

I can't get this done. You know what I mean? And she's like, who, who, who? And I was like,

ah, so I love that. I love that point. That's a good point. And it's failed too, right?

Yeah. So sometimes you pick a who. And it's not the right who. And you have to be like, okay,

we're just going to find some other way to do it. And it's okay too. And sometimes like,

I say this in design just with clients too, but it's very true in the business of hiring and

letting people go. Sometimes our best jobs are the ones we didn't take. And it's, you know,

it's just kind of figure it out along the way. Definitely, definitely. Okay, Katie and Kat,

which question do you guys want to tackle either each of you? I think for me, definitely some

advice would be to streamline your processes. That was something that we've really learned

over time. We use Asana and really have a step-by-step approach of exactly what our processes.

Time is money. So I feel like anything that you can streamline and make easier in terms of

responses or how you want to approach each project, I think will really help kind of streamline

everything in your business. We really went took a really big deep dive into what is our client

journey and what is that roadmap for them and making sure along the way that we're really staying

true to our brand and who we are. And I think that's really helped. So Asana is a big game

changer for us and I would scream it from the rooftops that anyone kind of in a business that has

a very, you know, step-by-step process like we do, I think it would be really valuable to kind

of dive into that and see what it could do for your business. So. Yeah, I mean, and the thing is,

you know, you could be a solo and documenting your processes and non-negotiable as far as

I'm concerned. Yeah. And the discussion because, you know, if it's all in your head, you are

an emergency is going to happen and you're going to drop a ball and a client is going to take a left

turn and then you're going to forget a part of the process. But if it's documented, you're just

constantly following the roadmap, right? Absolutely. Okay, Kat, are you answering the same question

advice for another designer? Oh, okay, I got a different one. I mean, I was going to, but I got

to take the other one. I feel good. I feel like it's left out. And I feel like maybe I'm a good

person to answer this with kind of the one thing I used to believe about being a business owner

that I know isn't true. I think there's lots of things, but one I think is feeling like you have

to know it all or that you're like a super strong, aggressive leader to be a business owner. I don't

think that's necessarily true. I think that helps, but I think you have to just bet on yourself.

I think if you have a lot of passion and a lot of hard work ethic and you know, you can do it,

I think you just got to bet on yourself and just do it and know that it's going to be a hard road,

but it's going to be okay. You can do it, get the right support, you know, on the business side

and on your personal side have the right people around you supporting you and you can roll through

it and do it and it's worth it on the other side for sure. I love it. I love it. And you know what?

It's the truth is the big loud ones of us, you know, we make all the big noise, but there are many,

many, many, many business owners that are quiet and are more of a quiet leader. And the truth is

my leading style in real life is quiet, right? My world is crazy, but leading style, it's like,

here's the road. Let's all just get on it. Yeah, right? Now I might be a little crazy if you

go left and I'm going right, but to your point though, I have met many, many designers that are not

big and bold and you know, I think there's a difference between looking strong and being strong,

right? Absolutely. You keep mentioning to Katie that she's strong in this and that and the other

thing and Katie's like, wait, you're strong, right? And so quiet leadership should never be underestimated.

It should never be underestimated. It's it's it's leadership is leadership. That's right.

Whatever you get, ever all the people on the train, feeling great about the destination and the

process of getting to it, that's leadership. That's right. You know, so whether the people on the

train are your employees, your clients, your vendors, your colleagues, whatever it is, it's like

the leader is the one who says, this is great. We all want to go there. We're having so much fun,

right? And is there to pick up the pieces when the things go bad and to let Jillian like you

have said a couple of times that, you know, the mistake is going to happen and it's cool. We're fine.

We just keep it rolling, right? So we have a joke in our office that when someone makes a mistake,

you have to wear a hat that says worst employee ever. And that's just our way of keeping it light

because no one's perfect. You're all everyone will make mistakes. And it's just a matter of

we've all worn the hat. I've worn it all the time. So yeah, yeah. That's funny. You know,

it's funny is I could see that working. And of course, the culture, it depends on the culture.

I could see that working easier in a small team. Yeah. And I think about like when I have like

when I go and I window works now with 17, 18 people, I'm like, yeah, there's some people that's

never going to think that's funny. Yeah. They're like, please put that hat on me. Please put that.

Don't tell anybody I messed up. Are you okay? I got it. But don't broadcast it. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, and that is also being a leader is understanding when a thing can't be a thing anymore,

right? It was a thing and it was funny. Like I can know there was a there was a point at

window works where is me, Vinny, Billy, uh, Lose, Kim, and, um, and, um, at that point, we could

have wore that hat. We can be like, here's Stoonod. The hat's yours today. Yeah. I'm saying. Yeah.

Yeah. But when I think about the team now as big as it is, it's, uh, you think it depends on

how much closest you have with each other. Yeah. Right. So you have that real trust and safety

with the other person, right? Yeah. The other people. But that's fun. I love that for you guys. That's

awesome. Especially like you said, you're sometimes wearing it. And that really is. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Like a leader, right? You can say when you're wrong. Right. Yes. Oh, yeah. Oh, God. Yeah.

Well, and that's a big learning lesson for CEO ship also is, you know, all those mistakes.

Some of them are going to be yours. Yeah. This is how it goes. You're human, right? Right?

Judith Neary used to come on the podcast in the first couple of years. Um, and she used to say,

you know, humans are involved. So yeah, it's going to get messed up. It's not much. I love that

the process. But, you know, so anyway, well, you guys are great. And it's so, I love the growth

that you've had through Dezi's guidance and her coaching and her mentorship. Um, you know,

certainly I believe in, you know, valued Dezi. I wouldn't have had her in my book if I didn't

think she was the real deal. And I just, uh, of course, we'll put the links to Dezi's podcast and,

you know, all the things in the show notes. But, you know, guys, thank you so much for coming here

and being vulnerable and sharing your stories and, you know, just the bumps in the, you know,

the grind on the way to being the CEO, right? It's a, you know, it's a, it's like, it's like motherhood.

It's a fun ride once you're the most of it. Right? You just have to enjoy it. That's the hard part.

Can you remind me of that? I have a trouble. It's the best. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I always

say there's this podcast. I've not listened to the podcast because I found it after I was done

raising the kids. But I just think the title is so perfect. And it's perfect for motherhood

and parenthood. But it's also perfect for business. It's the longest shortest time, right?

It's like in the moment, the problem is the longest thing. It's like the, the, the light that came

in for the 15 time wrong or the kid at two who will not leave their sneakers on when you're trying

to leave the house, right? But then all of a sudden, like that moment is long. Then all of a sudden,

that kid is five and you're like, wait, what? Are you going to kindergarten? Like, you know,

it's like, and your business, all of a sudden, I said this summer to my team. I'm like,

we're going to be 10 years old in February. I'm like, we're not going to start up anymore.

Like, whoa. And I'm just like, okay, we got to get serious about this now. There's no

Oh my goodness. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. Each of you. I appreciate your insights

today. Thank you so much, Luan. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks for having us. Thanks, Luan.

You know, every time I record one of these overheard episodes, I'm reminded why I love them so much.

It's not that we just get to listen to talented smart pros talking about how they've grown.

It's that we get to hear the truth of it, right? The real ongoing in the weeds processes,

whether it's harnessing creativity, hiring a team, or stepping into leadership.

Now, before I get to the takeaways, I want to take a moment to thank our newest sponsor

to the show, June LaLoi. If you're already familiar with LaLoi Rugs, you know they've been in

the trade business for more than 20 years, with a genuine focus on personalized service and great

design. June LaLoi comes from the same family and builds on that expertise, but they've expanded

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all curated with quality and value in mind. They also have some really great collaborations with

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You can learn more and apply for your trade account at June LaLoi.com forward slash trade. That's

j-o-o-n-l-o-l-o-i.com slash trade. All right, leadership. Sometimes it takes up on you, right? You started

out as a creative wanting to create beautiful spaces and suddenly you're running a full operation

without ever having been taught how to run a business, right? So let's walk through some of the

insights that we can't let go of and we shouldn't lose sight of. Grab a pen and paper because I've

got some action items for you. Heather Peterson reminded us that leadership evolves. She shared how

even after years in business, a sales tax audit forced her to see her company through a new lens,

not as a creative, but as the steward of a business with real responsibilities. What I love most is

that she didn't spiral. She chose to see it as data, not trauma. She asked, what can I learn from

this? And then she put systems in place so it wouldn't happen again. That is exceptional CEO

thinking my friends and yay you, Heather. So action item number one for you. If you've been avoiding

a part of your business, that scares you. Maybe it's your books, your contracts, your taxes,

pick one thing this week and look at square in the face. Not with emotion, but with curiosity. Ask

what's one process I can tighten up now? What's one thing I can do to feel better about this, to

face this? Then do it. It's not about doing it perfectly. It's about doing it. It's about

leading responsibly, right? Even if you have to put on the worst employee cap, like you're the

worst person ever to do this, but you know what? Do it, all right? You'll learn something from it.

Now, Gillian reminded us of a leadership troop that she lives by, that avoiding hard conversation

only creates more overwhelm, which as you know, always immediately brings to mind one of my

favorite all-time quotes from all the guests ever, ever on the show, Lee Cockrole. And you know what

he said, because I tell you all the time, Lee said, when you only do the easy things,

everything else gets harder, but when you do the hard things, everything else gets easier.

And Gillian is living proof, proof of that principle. I love it. Now, here's number two on your

action list. Think about one hard conversation you've been avoiding. Maybe it's resetting a client

expectation with that client, right? Maybe it's a team member who isn't a right fit.

Maybe it's admitting that you're undercharging and it's time to raise your fees.

Whatever it is, make the decision today to have that conversation this week. You'll breathe

easier. The second you do, I promise you, right? All of the rent in your space by holding all the

agita about that conversation, which you're going to have anyway, or you're going to have a lot

of trouble on the way to it. Once you have it, it's done. Your head is now rent-free, okay? Now,

Katie and Kat, who I'm so excited that I met last September in Kansas City at the seasonal

living event at Costan Tito, they taught us about confidence and collaboration. I loved hearing how

they've learned to embrace their differences as partners. One is more fast-paced and big picture,

the other is more grounded and detailed. I wonder who else that sounds like. The end of the man

you think, okay? And how they also talked about and how that balance has made their business stronger.

It's a perfect example of why we can't and should not do it all, right? Sometimes you're lucky to

get in and a partner, but otherwise go find it in an employee, right? Now, action item number three

is take a look at your team. Even if your team is just you, right? You probably have a bookkeeper,

a contractor, you have other people working with you, right? And ask yourself, am I playing to my

strengths or am I trying to be everything to everyone? If you are wearing every hat, I'm

promising you it's time to delegate one of those hats or more out. Maybe it means hiring a virtual

assistant for five or 10 hours a week. Maybe it means outsourcing your CAD drawings, your bookkeeping,

whatever it is, do it. Just start, okay? Heather also talked about how she created clarity in her team

by implementing tiered billing. She realized that if she couldn't build her rate for a specific

task, then guess what? She probably shouldn't be the one doing it. Wow, how is that for clarity?

I love that little mindset check, right? That is a perspective worth sitting with, okay? So ask

yourself, would I pay my CEO rate for this work? If the answer is no, get rid of it, okay? And then

Jillian expanded on that beautifully when she talked about creating an org chart, not for where the

business is today, but for where it's going, right? This is an exercise I recommend for every one

of you. Sketch out your future organization, operations, design, project management, admin,

marketing, write your name where you fill in the gaps now. There's going to be a lot of,

a lot of your name is going to be a lot of those boxes. I promise you, right? But leave

other boxes open for the future. So you're like, I'm doing it like, I like to have two versions of

this actually, right? One with the way it exists now, but one with the ones that I'm going to leave

open for the future, right? Because it's powerful to visualize what your company will look like

when it's fully built out. And of course, we heard how all these lessons, delegation, boundaries,

confidence, clarity, tie back to the CEO mindset set work that each of these ladies did with Desi

Cresswell. Desi has such a gift for helping us untangle the overwhelm. She asks you the tough

questions. What are you tolerating? Right? Listen to that question. What are you tolerating?

God bless it. Don't get me started. Right? Like it makes you, it makes you stop, doesn't it? Right?

And where are you spending time that doesn't serve your bigger vision? Right? And then what happens is

when Desi hits you with these questions and the others that she's got up her sleeve, she then

helps you build systems and habits that align your goals with your values, right? It's so powerful

the work that Desi does. And I'm just so thrilled to have come into her orbit and to know that she's

out there for you as a resource. So if this resonated with you, go check out desicresswell.com.

It's d-e-s-i-c-r-e-s-w-e-l-l.com. We will also link it in the show notes. Join her newsletter.

She has a podcast to listen to as well. Look into her coaching. It's one of the smartest steps

you can take toward building a business that supports you instead of draining you. Because at the end

of the day, that's what being a CEO is about. It's not about having all of the answers. It's not

about being the loudest person in the room. It's about creating space, structure, and clarity for

your business to thrive so that you can thrive right along with it. Okay? Heather, Jillian,

Katie and Kat are proof here, right here, and now that the mindset shift from designer to CEO

isn't just possible. It's actually also transformative. Okay? You want that for yourself. I know

you do. We all do, right? It's right there. You can do it. So ladies, thank you so much for being

here with me today. I really do appreciate that. And before you leave me today, if you're on my

email list, you already know this. But if you're not, you need to know it.

Lou University pre-rex for success is back on the calendar and it's going to be even better than

it ever has been before. New format, lots of takeaways, lots of information. This is a live virtual

event with me this February 17th, 2026 from 1 p.m. Eastern to 230 p.m. Eastern. It's free. Okay?

If you are like most of us, you're not struggling because you're unskilled. You struggle because

you take the next wrong step in your business as a CEO, just like we learned from these ladies.

Understanding this is the critical difference to your success. It's not a nice to have. So Lou

University pre-rex for success is exists to address this. This what is the next step? In one

focus session, you will get the help that you need to identify the symptoms showing up in your

business. Understand what those symptoms mean and then see which Lou you course or level or track

will create the biggest impact for you now. All of the Lou you instructors will be live in the chat

helping you determine fit, not selling to you, not teaching to you, just helping you see where you

have a gap and what the fix is in that gap. So if you want to stop guessing and start choosing

strategically, join me and my instructors live February 17th, 2026. And by the way, we have

absurd bonuses for attending live. We are really, really, really sweetening the pot. So go get on

my email list so that you get all the details. Go to louisniagara.com. I'm sure there's somewhere

you can click on to say get on the email list. All right. Usually we'll have something like this

also linked in my link tree and Instagram. So don't miss it. I'm telling you we're pulling out of

stops for this one. All right. Thank you. Thank you for showing up today for listening and for being

on this journey with me, I am so grateful. Decide to be excellent.

Thank you for joining me today. This podcast is a production of Lou Ann Igarah Inc. If you want to

know more about me, my books, or Lou Ann University, go to louannniagara.com. And if you are

interested in having window works help you with your next window treatment or awning project

in the New York, New Jersey metro area, go to windowworksnj.com to learn more. Have an excellent day.