153 | Matt Sayman's Journey from Baylor Basketball Scandal to Redemption

This is becoming undone.

I just really wanted I think to go somewhere that I was wanted and he told me that I was

going to be one of the pillars of the Baylor basketball program.

I mean, what kid doesn't want to hear that from a coach and so on the way home from that

visit, I told my mom that that's I want to go there.

And I mean, tears just wailing up in her eyes because she she wanted that too.

And it was a Friday afternoon.

I it just come in from playing San volleyball out of sterling and so every day was pretty

much in the summer.

A little bit of class waits in some basketball and then San volleyball and it's just such

a sweet time living the dream.

That's what I felt like I was doing.

And one of my professors called and said, hey, what's going on with your team?

And I was like, ah, I don't know.

Like what I played with a lot of knuckleheads, I think is a nice way to put it over the years.

And he said, no, you need to turn the TV.

They're talking about that they're Baylor basketball players missing and a possible homicide

in that Baylor basketball players might be involved.

Like I get why Baylor and our media guys wanted me to do it because I was the only one that

was a four year guy and I think the only one that they trusted would say the right things

because they needed somebody at that moment to be pro Baylor, pro the basketball program

excited about the future, but inside I was the exact opposite.

Wanted to get out of there.

Matt Samen here and I am undone.

Hey, friend, I'm glad you're here.

Welcome to yet another episode of Becoming Undone, the podcast for those who dare bravely,

risk mildly and grow relentlessly until we broke the speaker out there, professor and

performance scientist.

I spent much the last two decades working as an athletic trainer and a strength coach

in the professional collegiate and high school sports settings.

And over the years, I've grown more and more fascinated with what sets high achievers

apart and how failures that can suck in the moment can end up being exactly the push we

needed to propel us along our path to success.

Each week on Becoming Undone, I invite new guests to examine how high achievers can transform

from falling apart to falling into place.

This episode is Baylor Focus, but I'd like to emphasize that this show is entirely

separate from my role of Baylor University, but it's my attempt to apply what I've learned

and what I'm learning and share with others about the mindsets of high achievers.

You know, it is March Madness time and sadly, the Baylor Bears didn't even make the tournament

this year.

Although as of this moment, right now, my heirs on Wildcats are still looking pretty strong.

Their last final four was in 2001, and they won it all in 97, the year before I got there

for grad school and for work as an athletic trainer.

For Baylor 2021 was the culmination of an incredible comeback story that you'll hear a bit

more about in a minute, but it all got me thinking.

You know, we love stories about championships.

We love it confetti, the nets getting cut down, the moments where everything comes together

and makes sense, but what we don't see, what we rarely talk about, is what comes before

all of that, the part where it doesn't look like it's working, the part where it feels

like it doesn't matter at all, the part where you're not even sure anyone's ever going

to remember anything you did at all.

As long before Baylor basketball became a national champion, it was something else entirely.

It was broken.

And for a small group of players who lived through that season, in 2003-2004, there was

no guarantee of what came next, no roadmap, no momentum, for a while, not even a coach,

just a decision, show up anyway, or walk away.

Today's guest knows a thing or two about all that.

Say Matt Damon is the head boy's basketball coach at Midway High and Waco, but in 2003,

he was just minding his own business, enjoying a summer of living a good life, playing some

basketball and lifting weights and playing beach volleyball, prepping for a senior year

of Baylor where he and his teammates were heading into a season with high hopes, had aspirations

of a big 12th title and a March Madness run of their own, and then the unthinkable happened.

What's fascinating to me about this conversation with Matt is this.

At the time, as he was going through that senior year, he thought that season didn't matter.

He thought it was just a dark chapter that people would forget.

But years later, watching Baylor win a national championship, he started to realize something

different.

That's what they did, the showing up, the staying, the competing when everything around

them was falling apart.

That was the foundation for that championship.

Not to highlight, the foundation.

And that's the tension we're going to explore in this episode, because most of us don't

get to choose whether we go through hard seasons, but we do get to choose who we become

within them.

And sometimes the seasons that feel the most insignificant, those are the ones that matter

the most.

I hope you'll enjoy my conversation with Matt Samen in episode 153.

Let's get into it.

Greetings and welcome back to becoming another of the podcasts for those who dare bravely

risk my Lee and grow relentlessly.

Join me at Toby Brooks, design by the new guest each week, as we examine how high achievers

can transfer from falling apart to falling into place.

This week, I'm stoked.

I've finally got a Baylor guest on here.

Matt Samen joined me.

He's the head basketball coach at Midway High School.

And he's got a heck of a story, also an author and a successful collegiate basketball

player.

So Matt, thank you so much for joining me.

Now, thank you so much for having me.

Yeah, my boss Wes Noel kind of put me on the trail.

I wasn't aware of your book, and my wife and I were having this conversation last week.

And we said, remember when I said, under no circumstances, would I go to Baylor?

First there was a Patrick Denny's situation.

Then there was the Art Bridal's situation.

And the Lord certainly likes to challenge me on the things I say I won't do.

So here we are.

But you were there for Scott Drew's first season and also all the things that transpired

before that.

So we'll get into that in just a minute.

But I know you were a successful high school and college basketball player still holds some

Baylor records if I'm not mistaken.

And so I always like to start at the beginning.

What do you want to be growing up and why?

I love that.

When I was nine years old, I had a skills coach up in Pennsylvania where I was from.

And one day sat me down and he said, Matt, what are your goals?

And I had no clue what he was talking about as far as goal setting.

And so I said, all of the things that kids say and no order to them, no plan for executing

them at all.

And he said, no, let's look at this in a couple of years when you get to high school,

what would you like to see, where would you like to be with basketball?

And I said, OK, I like to make my freshman A team.

And so I wrote that down nine or 10 years old.

And they said, OK, what's the next step after that?

I said, well, I think I'd like to make Varsie as a sophomore.

And so I wrote that down.

And then the last one was to play division one basketball and wrote that down.

And he just helped me kind of a step-by-step approach to goal setting that I thought was

really unique.

Because over the years, I've talked to plenty of kids that say, I want to play in the NBA.

OK, great goal.

How do you get there?

I don't know.

I have no idea.

And so that approach really helped me as I really got, I played a lot of sports growing

up, but really loved basketball.

That was kind of the thing that I always was doing.

And that was my main sport.

But fell in love with skill work, pistol peat marriage, video tapes that his homework

basketball really got me loving the part of the game that is sometimes boring for players,

which is you and a ball alone, just doing drills.

But just created this workout over the years called Jamodi that stands for just a matter

of doing it.

And it just grew and grew.

And then he was kind of fast forward a few years.

I'm living in Pennsylvania, but I come down right before my freshman year in high school

to go to a basketball camp in Texas.

And I met a guy named Tommy Thomas, who was the head coach at the colony high school.

I was about five, six, five, seven, very average in everything, but pretty skilled and

very serious about the game, told him my three goals and he said, Matt, that can happen

for you down here in Texas.

And so I flew back up to Pennsylvania where all of our family is from, told my parents

on the way home from the airport that I need to move to Texas so I can be a college basketball

player and asked my little sister, they asked my little sister, is that something that you

want to do?

She said, let's do it.

And we changed our lives.

I'm going to force my way in here early.

Hope I don't get a foul trouble along the way.

But man, I absolutely love this story from the age of nine, a young Matt loves basketball.

And with the help of a skills coach, he's able to plot his course to accomplish some

pretty impressive dreams.

I like to say strategic and purpose relentless and pursuit better every day.

And at nine, Matt's got a strategy.

Then he's relentless in the pursuit of it.

And as he continues to grow, he happens to head to a camp in Texas where coach takes

an interest and convinces him that if he wants to make those dreams come true, his path

would be better served in Texas rather than Pennsylvania.

After talking it over with his family, and this is the remarkable part, they agree.

Just like that, the family moves to Texas so Matt can chase his dreams.

Maybe you've got parents like that, or maybe you didn't have parents at all.

What I'm reminded of here is just how important it is to have our people.

And you've got great big dreams to have people around you who not only believe in you,

but they're willing to help you make your dreams a reality.

Sure where there's a will, there's a way, a strong will can get you moving, but the right

people can make you sore.

For Matt, it was his family.

And time would tell that their sacrifices not only helped Matt turn his dreams into reality,

they also helped shape the college he didn't know that.

Not to mention the man he would become.

My dream, so my dream became my parent's dream, and the only reason I can imagine that

they would do that is that they saw how serious I was about it.

It wasn't just a hobby, something that I picked up and put down, and so they got all behind

that dream.

And I think what makes what happened at Baylor even more difficult was this wasn't just

something that fell into our lap, you know, being a college basketball player is something

that was really planned for, and I worked really hard to get there.

Yeah, that's an incredible story, and certainly one that, you know, you have to be thankful

to your parents for making that dream happen, but you're putting in the work, you're investing

the time and connecting with coaches.

You don't just fall out of bed and become a division one basketball player.

What led to you actually signing at Baylor and being, you know, that D1 player that you

dreamed of back in nine, 10 years old?

Yeah, the crazy thing about those goals that Coach Zella was his name asked me to put down

was they happened in that order.

When I got to the colony, it was, I was from a small town in Pennsylvania where actually

football was king, so if I was trying to get somewhere where football wasn't big, then

I came to the wrong state, but if football was really big where I was from in Burwick,

and coming down to the colony, it was a five A high school, 600 plus kids in the class

in each class, and it was just a very much a culture shock from where I had grown up and

where I had lived, but basketball, at least the skill part, I mean, that translated, you

know, that it didn't matter where, what you're used to, who you're used to living with

or being around and the type of place, and so I made my freshman 18, but I was still

small, size 13 shoe, and then my sophomore year, I grew five or six inches over the summer

because my dad's six three, and my mom's tall, so everybody was thinking it's going to

happen, but it was just, I mean, super late, but I hit my growth spur, was really skinny,

and still skills, but I made Varsie as a sophomore, it got into the weight room and really

focused on that into my junior year and just exploded.

The skill was there, but then the athleticism hit, and I had height, I was about six two,

and then had a great junior in senior year, halfway through, well, the summer going into

my senior year, I noticed some coaches that were starting to follow our select team, but

we had a really good select team, 10, 11, D1 guys on there.

I didn't even start on that select team, but I had seen a Baylor coach's name with Doug

Ash had a lot of our games, but I actually thought he was looking at maybe one of my teammates

instead, but then sure enough, they asked me to come down in my mom on a visit, and Coach

Bliss met us along the highway to gas station to leave our car, and he was going to escort

us around, and he had the Bible, a Bible in his back seat.

My mom still thinks to this day that it was on purpose because of who we were.

I was known for that, my family, we were known as believers, and it was very much well-known

of that's how we live, and so I think definitely wanted my mom and I didn't know that this was

a place where I could live out my faith openly, but also he was the kind of coach that would

guide me in that direction as well.

Man, I loved the university, loved, loved, one thing he did really well is, because I'd

gone on another visit to SMU, and I never saw the head coach until the very end.

It was very rushed, and I felt like I wasn't their choice.

In fact, they even alluded to we're looking at a couple other guys, you're same position,

and I knew them, and I was thinking, okay, they're

better than me.

But Coach Bliss made me feel like I was the only one, and every time he introduced me

to somebody, I felt super special.

He was telling them if Matt could be here, this is going to be incredible, and then in our

last meeting, he showed me some film, it's funny.

He showed me some film of some offense that we never used, but I don't know if he was

trying to wow me, or maybe it's something that he wanted to do, but we never used what

he was showing, but he sold me on that, because I'm not from Texas.

I didn't really understand universities down here who was big and who's not.

I knew Big 12 was a good conference, but I just really wanted, I think, to go somewhere

that I was wanted, and he told me that I was going to be one of the pillars of the Baylor

basketball program.

I mean, what kid doesn't want to hear that from a coach, and so on the way home from

that visit, I told my mom that that's, I want to go there.

I mean, tears just willing up in her eyes, because she wanted that too.

And so it was really this kind of the nine-year-old dream all coming together, and it actually

happening.

Like, what are the odds of that?

And especially when you're, I always joke around that I think part of the reason for

writing the book was to give people an inside look of what is it like to be a part

of a college basketball program, but not as a star, as a role player, like somebody that

just survives for four years, because Zion's one year at Duke and my four years, I think,

are very different experiences in how we were, but yeah, it was just, it was really cool

to see that happen.

From a guy that's not athletically special, I'm six three, which isn't that tall for that

level, and not that fast, can't jump that high.

And so how do you actually do it?

And it's pretty cool to see that that got allowed and helped all those things to happen.

Yeah.

Quantum R research, you owe the record that I think it's safe to say will never be broken

in this NIL era.

School records for career games played at 118.

Obviously.

Obviously.

I'm going to stop you there.

I appreciate you doing your homework, and I did have that record for a few years.

Baylor got so good that those guys back in the mid 2000s, mid 2010s were playing into

postseason and playing for a long time and for four years.

So I don't know where I am on it now, but I mean, I have the ball that proves that at

one point, I did hold it.

Right.

Well, I think it's safe to say that wherever you are on that list, it's probably pretty

firm at this point.

A lot of one and done just, yeah, we see the, you know, the entire roster turned over

last season.

There's talk that it might happen again, but regardless, that was a different era, and

you were obviously contributing early and often and have to think that your dreams are coming

through.

If we were to ask 19 year old Matt, what's your identity?

How would you define yourself in that freshman, that sophomore year?

What would you have said then before all the calamities started?

Yeah.

That's a great question.

I think, I think I would have given you the answer that I'm supposed to say, which is

I'm a Christ follower first.

I was pretty, I was good at that.

I knew the right things to say.

I think I knew all of those answers, and there was a part of me.

It was how I was raised baptized when I was five.

I just, I can't remember a lifetime where we didn't go to church or part of my life, and

the Bible wasn't a part of my life, and so I would have said that now, the honest answer

is basketball, and the only way I know that now is because when that summer hit and basketball

was kind of ripped apart, I realized I don't have an identity, and the identity I thought

I had or I told people I had, I really had been walking away from that for quite some

time.

I think if you rip open my chest, I think there was a basketball there, and then the danger

of that is for any athlete, or really any professional, it could even be a relationship that you

hold.

It's really dear to you that you're putting that person even on a pedestal to put your

all your value and effort into a sport, a job, or a relationship, what happens if it breaks

apart?

And I just learned that the hard way that sports will let you down, basketball, your job,

your profession, everything will let you down, and hopefully God puts people in your life

that won't.

We're flawed, and so I, yeah, I think that's the answer I would have given.

You've maybe seen those videos on Instagram or TikTok that say quote, subtle foreshadowing

in quote, where the dude's like trying to open up a bottle or loosen up a drain plug or

an oil pan and there's quick little brief clips inserted where he's covered with it, right?

This is that.

That acknowledges that for that time in his life, he was a college basketball player.

He loved Baylor because it was a place where he could be vocal about his faith, he could

live it out, he could be authentically Christian.

However, in the summer of 2003, the world would learn a lot about Baylor, and Matt would

learn a lot about himself.

There are moments in a career where everything you thought you were building suddenly gets

stripped away.

And for that Baylor program, in the wake of the Baylor University basketball scandal,

it wasn't metaphor, it was real.

If you're not familiar with that moment in college basketball history, I'd say it's

one of the darkest stories in the history of college sport.

A Baylor player, Patrick Denny, was tragically murdered by teammate Carlton Dotson.

In the aftermath, it was revealed that head coach Dave Bliss had instructed players specifically

to lie in order to cover up NCAA violations, including improper payments, pinning the blame

on the slain Denny, making him out to be a drug dealer who was the source of the money

that had actually been handed out against NCAA rules by Bliss.

What started first as a tragedy quickly exposed something deeper, a culture that had horribly

lost its way.

And when it all came to light, the program that had been on the rise and was expected

to make a run at a big 12 title, absolutely cratered.

Scholarships were slashed, players transferred, coaching staff gone, the season was essentially

forfeited.

Baylor basketball became for a moment the example nobody wanted to be.

And it's been the subject of more than one documentary.

And to this day, it's a stain on the fabric of a school that has long heralded itself

as an apologetically Christian.

If you're Matt Seaman in that moment, your career hangs in the balance.

Because the thing you committed to the system you trusted, suddenly isn't there anymore.

Den enters, Scott drew, young, full of energy, unproven, walking into what a lot of people

called the worst job in college basketball at the time.

And he didn't walk in, just promising wins.

He walked in promising a rebuild from the ground up, even mentioning championships in

his initial press conference.

People across the country listened and maybe even laughed, as this young guy out of nowhere

took the helm of a program with an active murder investigation ongoing from last year's

roster.

And he's talking about winning championships, but that's where this becomes more than

just a story about a scandal.

Because for Matt, this wasn't about bouncing back.

It was about deciding who he was going to be when everything else around him was unstable.

The bliss, whatever that program had become, it had broken.

But under Drew, with most of last year's talent either gone, or incarcerated, or murdered,

it didn't immediately get better.

Under fact, it got harder, fewer players, fewer wins, more uncertainty, a long road with

no guarantee at the end of it.

And in that space, Matt had a choice that every high performer eventually faces.

Do I leave?

Because this no longer serves me?

Or do I stay?

And let this refine me.

Because staying meant buying into something you couldn't yet see.

No proof, no payoff, just belief, and a willingness to endure.

We celebrate Baylor Men's basketball now, and 2021 Scott Drew made good on that promise

people laughed at in 2003 as the Bears defeated Gonzaga in the national championship.

But for Matt, none of that was visible then.

But what was visible was chaos.

And what he chose to do in that chaos?

That's what actually shapes a career.

Not when things are clear, but when things are not.

That's where becoming undone actually happens.

But for Matt, there would be more than one undoing yet to come.

Yeah, well, I appreciate that transparency, I think, for a lot of folks.

You wear masks.

We want to, and I can say for myself, there's lots of times when I might give an answer

that I wish were more true when, in fact, if I really got honest and vulnerable and shared

the truth in that season, it might be a little bit different.

So I appreciate you sharing that.

So the wheels start falling off, and the unthinkable.

I mean, we've got a murder on a college basketball team.

And the coaching staff implodes, the program is in disarray.

And you're one of the few, the title of your book, The Leftovers, and the subtitle there,

Baylor, betrayal, and beyond.

So talk me through that season, and what it was like in Waco, and what it was like inside

the basketball program, and maybe what Matt's thinking at this point.

Do I transfer?

Do I stick it out?

Like, what are you thinking in that season?

I mean, just to rewind a little, it was what made it even harder was the direction we

were heading.

And I team my freshman year.

And so I already got a taste of postseason.

Like this can happen at Baylor with Coach Bliss.

We were super young, my sophomore year, but competitive, older, and super competitive,

and right on the edge, my junior year.

But everybody feeling and knowing like, we're about to do this.

We got role players like me, Artie Gwynne, Terrence Thomas, that we're going to be seniors.

You got future pros like John Lucas and Lord for Roberts and Kenny Taylor was our best

shooter.

I mean, it's really coming together, like kind of looked at that we could be in the top

four in the big 12, which is top 25 usually, which means March madness, which I'm a

Duke fan and always grew up a Duke fan, go into Duke basketball camp and practice Christian

Latener shot out in the driveway, falling into the snow, and it's like, I was a Kentucky

fan growing up.

So that turned around jumper to free throw line and stuff and I managed to raise all of those

great, all those great March madness moments, filling out brackets over the years.

And you know, when you and I are talking right now, it's, it's coming up this weekend.

It's still a special, it's the most special sporting event to me, you know, that we have.

To be a part of that was is the ultimate goal.

I feel like of every college basketball player and coach.

And so it was about to happen.

And it was a Friday afternoon.

I had just come in from playing sand volleyball out of sterling and so it was, every day

was pretty much in the summer, a little bit of class, weights and some basketball and

then sand volleyball.

And it's just such a sweet time living the dream.

That's what I felt like I was doing.

And one of my professors called and said, and what's going on with your team?

And I was like, ah, I don't know, like what I played with a lot of knuckleheads, I think

is a nice way to put it over the years.

And he said, no, you need to turn the TV.

They're talking about that their Baylor basketball players missing and a possible homicide

in that Baylor basketball players might be involved.

And I lived a pretty charmed life to that point.

I can't remember a significant death in my family.

Parents were still together.

This idea of I have this dream I have for basketball.

God in my mind was making it all happen the way that I wanted kind of my own theology

of like a genie.

And this was the first time that that was derailed or there's a hiccup in it at all.

And over the course of that summer, it was two months, what if two months of new

revelation after new revelation and learning right along with everybody else, what it felt

like, yeah, it was the world because fast forward to I'm after my senior year in Baylor.

And I'm playing in Iceland.

My first practice there, one of my teammates asked, where'd you play?

I said, Baylor, thinking that they've never seen a big 12 player before in in

Yardavik, Iceland.

And they said, puzzle look.

He goes, don't they kill people there?

Oh, wow.

And so like that, that story followed me.

But yeah, that's summer.

I wanted to get out of Waco.

Waco, to me, I loved being on campus.

In fact, at that time, what's that movie, Van Wilder, it's not a great movie.

But he wanted, he was on campus for six or seven years and was like, I love it here.

I'm going to keep saying, I, that was my vision of grad school and just staying.

I'm just going to stay here.

I love, but that, that campus just started to close in on me and my teammates.

It was no longer about basketball.

It was, what do you know, what can you tell us?

I'm driving from Dallas back to Waco.

And I get a call from New York Times.

That'd be really cool if they were wanting to know about our team and how great we

were going to be.

And what's it feel like to be in a top 25 team?

No, it was, what can you tell us?

What don't we know yet?

I would go to the student life center, the slick and which I'd done thousands and

I felt like thousands of times in there were news crews waiting out there.

Now, I don't think they knew I was going to show up, but they saw me.

And then that was their chance to talk to an insider and another thing formed,

which was, and I get it, like I get why Baylor and our media guys wanted me to do

it because I was the only one that was a four year guy.

And I think the only one that they trusted would say the right things because they

needed somebody at that moment to be pro Baylor, pro the basketball program.

Excited about the future, but inside I was the exact opposite.

Wanted to get out of there.

Didn't think that they would even be able to hire a coach and didn't know who that

would be. I did try.

I called two and I talk about this in the story.

I talk, I called two colleges.

One that I'd used to, that had been recruiting me before, but that coach was no longer

there. And then I called because a buddy of mine that we had gone to Baylor together.

Logan calls Malski.

He had played for two years, went to Davidson after a sophomore year.

I begged him to stay.

I said, Logan, don't you get?

Like we got something special here, man.

Listen, that he goes to Davidson and has a great normal career.

I'm a part of the leftovers.

And so maybe look, I'm not looking at no.

But I called Logan.

I was like, hey, do you think coach McKillip would take me?

And he's like, I mean, I'll put you in touch.

I had a 10 minute phone call with coach.

He was super kind to me, but I'm a six, three average athleticism, athleticism player

that average four and a half points a game.

And I take charges and I dive on the floor and I'm a really good teammate.

And he just was kind and said, you know, we don't really take one year, guys, which

I totally understood at that time because transferring wasn't the same.

As it is today, you typically are doing it for good reasons.

And the guys that did come, they would sit out a year and it would take them so long

to get in the mix for one year.

Some never did.

In fact, I played over some of those guys and I don't think I should have, but it just

was hard.

And so I just knew that was I was staying at Baylor, the coaching staff that I played

almost 100 games for.

They found out that they were doing a lot of things wrong.

And I didn't know about that.

And there's some interactions with coach bliss that were really tough over that summer

that I'd always believed in coaches.

My parents taught me to trust them.

And it was the first time I felt like I was really had been lied to by them.

And then on top of it, Patrick Denny, I mean, I, he was a red shirt, my junior year.

So kind of in and out, red shirts aren't always at practice, aren't always around.

But we knew how good he was going to be.

And that he was going to really help us next year.

And he was always really kind.

I never had an issue with Patrick at all, but for him to be gone and one of my teammates,

Carlton, who I actually really liked and was a couple of lockers down from me.

And we would kind of our paths of playing time were sometimes along the same lines

to where I felt like we kind of had each other's back and would encourage each other

and never saw that coming.

And I lost 10 teammates that summer.

And so you're just going into your senior year as a, I'm a 21 year old

that's really been living this kind of charmed life.

And now everything is crashing down.

And so to go back to your question earlier of identity, I was just completely lost.

Yeah, that has to be tough.

And you know, you've got expectations thinking that team's going to be kind of moving

onward and upward or on the threshold of doing some great things and all that comes crashing down,

not to mention a death and NCAA issues.

So you get this coach that no one had probably ever heard of.

Scott Drew comes to town and you're part of a very few who stick around.

And you're the leftovers.

What do you remember about your first real interaction with coach Drew?

I was driving, so I tried to do my best to get out of Wake Go as much as I could that summer,

especially the bubble.

It just, it was different.

There's even, there were news stories interviewing other students

where they were frustrated because of what basketball players had done,

because it was another stain on our university.

And even mentioned like being, having to be careful about being around basketball players.

And I felt that, I felt that walking around the campus.

And so try to get out as much as I could.

And I'm driving back and a buddy calls me and says, hey, you got a new coach.

I'm thinking, who would take that?

Why would you take this?

Like, you can't be very good.

You have to be escaping something or like, this is your each chance at something.

And they're like, Scott Drew.

And I said, never, never heard of him.

I don't know who that is.

He was 32 years old when he took over.

And I was 21.

And so there, and there was only one other assistant that was,

and he had a couple of assistants that are a little older than him.

But the oldest assistant was 40.

So it was a super young staff.

And we were meeting him for the first time right before,

right before his press conference, I think, around that time.

And he walked in, but before he walked in,

I was just surveying our team.

And I used kind of quotes like for team, because it was me and two other seniors,

but Terrence had only been there for a year,

our team for two years.

This is my fourth.

We had a couple of freshmen that were sophomores now that didn't play much as freshmen.

And then a freshman that did decide to come,

because a lot have decided not to come anymore and some walk-ons.

And I just remember thinking, I know what we're about to go up against

in a division one, big 12 high-level schedule

that Coach Bliss had made for a top 25 team.

And not to let alone the big 12.

And all of the Hall of Fame coaches that were there and NBA players at that time.

And I was just down in the dumps about, this is how did this happen.

And he comes in almost jogging, I felt like, so much energy.

And bouncing around, hands out, big smile,

thanking us for being there.

And then he kept saying that we're building something for the future.

And I didn't want to hear that.

I don't want to, that's not, I don't want to be a part of that.

I, this is the futures now.

And everything he was saying was right.

And he was doing all the right things.

He even met with us one-on-one.

And when he met with us, it, for me, he was thanking me and asked me to be even a bigger leader.

And to go out and meet with the guys one-on-one and to really get them on board.

And the, the, the tough thing is I've got, I became used to being the guy that

the coaches are all just happy with and don't have to ask me of anything or tell me anything.

I show up on a work really hard.

I give them my best. I'm a leader when I'm there.

But I don't hang out with guys outside of basketball and it kept me out of the police

investigation. I only had to go once because I didn't really hang out with them that much.

And, but that just wasn't my thing.

I had other friends and how, why are you asking me to do this?

Like to spend more time with guys that, for something now that deep down,

I don't think I care much about.

And so I, I was very guarded.

And, and I've told him this. So this isn't new.

And I apologized over the years to him.

I wish I would have been more open.

I wish I would have given him more of a chance.

But I was, there's such a sting from

what the previous coach had said and done.

And then what had come out in the newspapers and all those things that I was just so guarded.

And the fact that we weren't even allowed to play in post-season play.

So it was, it'd be like you and I before we get, we get our new job.

And they say, Hey, you're going to work hard.

You're going to do all these things.

But we're not going to pay you.

Where do you sign?

Like that's, I'm not doing that.

And so before we, but then I had to be up in front of everybody talking in front of the media

saying, Hey, happy to be here.

You know, glad, glad the coach's here excited for the season.

We get to go to Hawaii.

That's fun.

But all in my head, I'm thinking it none of it matters.

We don't even, even if we were hypothetically, had been good.

We couldn't play.

And as somebody that was just working, like that was to me the big carrot at that time.

I didn't want to play after college.

I was planning on going to grad school and staying on staff.

Yeah, it just, it was just wasn't the picture that I thought.

And even the start that year, it was just rough.

Yeah.

Well, I got a wonder.

I mean, coach Drew is now famous for being a guy that builds culture.

And he comes here and in his opening press conference, you know,

and I was sitting in that, in that, in that gym because they show it at the Baylor,

you know, every time for the play show there.

And I remember, because my wife and I went and watched Arizona,

them in Arizona a few weeks ago.

And they're showing that it was kind of like a crazy.

I was there.

But what a different mindset I had at that moment.

No, I mean, the flames are still kind of burning around in this program.

And here comes a guy that again, you hadn't heard of young full of energy,

but still unproven largely.

And he's talking about winning championships and not just conference championships,

national championships, and it ends up being prophetic like it does happen.

But I have to wonder, was that an eye roll moment for you?

Or were you thinking almost a, almost a laugh out loud in my, in my mind?

Like, are you coach?

Like, that's not happening, man, you know, and it was just because we're so,

we are so talent wise and even depth.

So far from that.

In fact, the team that I thought, like, that was last year's team,

you know, the team that we were supposed to have could possibly do that.

And another thing, too, is I think you mentioned culture.

I think coach Drew was on the cutting edge of how a majority of people

talk about being today or want to be today.

He was doing that at, we had music in practice.

I'm walking in like, what are we doing here?

Why are jock jams in practice?

This isn't serious.

You know, they're, they're beating drums before games.

Tang is beating the trash can and they're jumping up and down.

They're doing things are hugging.

They're smiling.

And I'm like this, I was used to a Bobby Knight type of environment

in practice because coach Bliss was Bobby Knight's first assistant coach.

And very much alike in their discipline.

My first, my first practice with coach Bliss and coach Drew

could not be more different or first interactions.

Coach Bliss literally looked at us and said, I'm not your friend.

You have enough friends.

I'm here to coach you basketball.

And then he said, Baylor here, you're here.

And he had this huge gap in between the two and it was like, okay.

We get it.

The, the assistants that and coach Drew and the assistants were way more.

They were positive.

They were physical with like hugging and touching.

And I, I mean, I, if I ever hugged Coach Bliss, like, just, I don't even know what, I mean,

a couple of handshakes and it was just such a different dynamic that now, like,

that's what I try to do with my players.

Like, I want that.

And I think it's become way more popular because of the results that it has of that type of

positive culture where people feel like they're cared for.

It's just not what I wanted, which is silly because you should want that.

But when you're, I mean, three years, you know, over a thousand days of hard-nosed,

fear-based leadership, you get used to that.

Almost to the point where like, this is serious.

You're not a serious program if you're not doing that.

Yeah.

In my research, I mean, teaching and coaching share lots and common.

And much of the work that I've done talks about the apprenticeship of observation and how

whether you're an athlete or a student, you are on the receiving end of coaching and teaching.

And that has a way of kind of settling into our beliefs about what it means to be a coach

and to be a teacher.

And if you've spent a lot of time under an authoritarian coach, you kind of tend to become

an authoritarian coach.

And a lot of judgment comes in when we experience someone that's different from our own.

So I have to think that that, yeah, coach Drew is known for building culture.

But for you, it was a culture shock and maybe not in a good way initially.

So you manage to make it through that season and basketball's over.

That's a times in this show we talk about that transition and you mentioned you played professionally.

So talk me through where you were psychologically when your collegiate playing days had ended.

And you're considering what's coming next.

We'll be back after this quick message.

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And if you don't mind just to kind of jump a year back from that moment when it was over,

because we talked a lot about identity earlier, and when basketball was the thing that I was

working towards and pursuing, and then when that wasn't that important anymore, I think athletes

or competitors in general are always looking for an outlet for that. Michael Jordan,

every once in a while, an article will come up where he just talks about how empty he is,

because he has nowhere to place that competitiveness, and it nothing feeds it,

not the golf, not the gambling, not the owning teams, not anything like playing did for him.

I'm not that level of competitor, but a competitor, and when it's not, I don't find joy in that,

or any interest, will you have to put that somewhere, and I put it into the party scene.

And that one had never been a part of my life up into that summer. Now, when I turned 21,

I started to maybe, you know, it's kind of funny where you can kind of see where sin creeps in

in little ways. It kind of been creeping in, but very subdued, very not the same, but then

blew the doors wide open on that. All season long, it was my idea of, I'm just going to keep having

fun off the floor, do whatever I can to find some joy to laugh a little bit, because we're losing.

This isn't fun. This doesn't make any sense to me. And even though in that season, the

leftovers book for anybody, it's not depressing. It's an underdog story, because we end up halfway

through that season. My teammates, Terrence Thomas, he's the hero of the book of the story.

And we band together, and we start to buy into this coach drew idea of every night's our

championship. Let's enjoy each other. Let's play hard for each other. Let's come together. We do

that. And we end up being really competitive in a big 12 that where we have no business being.

I mean, there were, I think at that time, seven or eight Hall of Fame coaches in that league.

We beat some teams. We beat A&M twice. We beat Iowa State. We were up 14 at Oklahoma with Kelvin

Samson, you know, and we lost that game, but so many great moments. But after that season,

but the thing is, even with basketball got good, those habits didn't go anywhere that I developed.

And so I just stayed kind of basketball and that those habits kept moving along. Well, by the end

of the season, and I after that Oklahoma game on the back of the bus on the way home, we're

of 14. We ended up losing because inevitably we just got tired like we did every game because

we're playing six guys and we're role players. And I was so done. I wanted nothing to do with

basketball. And so about two months go by. I don't touch a ball and then just happen to be up

at the student life center slick. And there's all this basketball. I'll go play a little pick up

and just one game of pick up. And I was like, Oh, man, I'm not done. I want to keep playing.

So went over to Iceland and coach Driscoll helped me get that one of the assistants helped me get

that because I was a hard sell for pro basketball average eight and a half points a game my

senior year, but I was playing 38 minutes. Like you should average more than that if you're good.

And, and I, but I had some assists and I was a bigger sized point guard. And so went over to

Iceland and really threw myself into training three times a day. It was so much fun. And Icelandic

people were incredible in basketball. It was there's a big difference from big 12th play where

those guys were all more athletic all of a sudden. I was the athletic one. And so I was playing

really well. And my off court habits though followed me there. And we had an apartment that they

given me to live in. And you know, one night we had a really big party there. And the owners of

the club came to me and said, Matt, you can't do that again. Like that's not what this is a four.

And I was just so mayor again lost. Just thought it's invincible maybe. And a couple nights later

had even a bigger one. And the next night they came next day, they came and hand me a plane ticket.

And at that point, the home and at that point, I was averaging a triple double. We had won the

Icelandic Cup. I had offers to go to other European countries and play. But I wanted to stay in

Iceland where I was because I'm a loyal guy. And they asked me to leave. And I completely

understand why they did when I came home from that, I was about 22nd then at the time. And

completely lost. I mean, I went to Abercrombie and Fitch and was a manager there for a year.

I kind of a Baylor degree. I played basketball. And I'm from all the manages to weather the storms

of Baylor, both external and the campus community and media in the wake of one of the largest

scandals in college basketball history. Not to mention the internal turmoil where it feels like

the love of the game has gone in a season that started as a disappointment before it even began.

With a depleted roster in NCAA sanctions, making even an unlikely, successful season,

ensure that postseason aspirations were impossible. But one pickup game back at the campus

rec center and some help from an assistant coach and he finds himself on the other side of the world

as a pro basketball player. And it's going well for a while. Matt's a star in Iceland,

but his parting habits that had taken root during his senior year ultimately

spell the end of his professional career. It would mark the end of his dreams as an athlete

and send him straight into the teeth of a purpose store. With time and again with some help

from someone who believed in him, at this point, perhaps more than he believed in himself,

he sets off in a new direction, finding a new purpose along the way. Not to mention a divine

appointment with a beautiful young lady, but more than that in just a sec.

And I'm folded in jeans. No fest to people in retail. It was just, I just didn't know what to do.

I tried nine different jobs in about three years and then luckily, and I think it's a god thing,

but a guy, my high school coach called me and said, hey, there's a guy that's opening a gym

and wants a director of basketball operations in Dallas and you should go meet with them. And I

did that, met with them. And then part of my task there was to go to create an eighth grade

boys select team for his son. And that group of boys coached them. It was my first time to ever do

that. I fell in love with it. And so that was kind of my journey from playing to being lost for

about two, three years almost and then getting in two years and then getting into coaching at that

point. Yeah. What a story. What a journey. Literally around the globe. You're seeing kind of

some consequences of sin that had creeped into your life. At that point, where were you spiritually?

And how was your face helping or maybe pulling you in different directions?

Yeah, I was completely running away. I just just wanted, when I say nothing to do with it,

there's a tremendous, I felt tremendous guilt for how I was living. But then the anger

of why I was there, it was misplaced. I took no responsibility. It was all about how could you let

that happen? And then really trying to drown out that, that, that, that holy spirit feeling of

what you're doing won't still fill you. It won't work. You're trying to escape this, but it's not,

it's not going to go anywhere. And, and I knew I, that's where it's kind of like, I'm so thankful to

my parents for raising me the way that they did and giving me that foundation. And for, for, for,

Christ coming into my life at a young age, because even though I went a poor direction and made

some bad choices, I always knew when I was doing was wrong. And that this wasn't the life that God

had for me. But there was that anger piece of like, well, then why'd you let that stuff happen?

But that's not how, that's not how it works. And that's that young person's idea of who God is,

or what it is to be a Christian. And what I wish is I could go back to that time when that all

happened. And really figure, okay, God, what can I learn from this? How can I be a light during

this time? How can I serve others? How can I help others that are struggling right now? I didn't

none of that. I became completely selfish and only focused on my happiness, pleasure, and joy. And

man, that will take you down. Yeah, horrible roads. So really from that summer to my 30th birthday,

I was a high school coach at the time, a varsity assistant. And I, I, there's, I wish I could

apologize to some of those early on players, because I was good at the basketball part,

but didn't horrible at the culture part. I was way more like Coach Bliss early on. And just

really angry and transactional, not transformational, which is I think what we want to be as coaches.

And then on my 30th birthday, I was alone in my apartment in McKinney, just

completely frustrated of why, how, where I wasn't life and how this was happened. And ended up,

I hadn't been to church in years and ended up the next Sunday going to a random church in Plano

that I didn't attend. I just drove by it and I knew it was there. And I sat in the back of the, of the

church and listened to a sermon that I felt like I had heard, you know, thousands of times.

And filled out a visitor card. They threw that card around. I never filled out a card before.

That I never been a visitor at a church before. I always just been an attender. And so I filled out

that card. I said, I'm angry and I have questions and gave my information on there. Never thought I'd

hear back from anybody. And a little bit of time goes by, but I got an email from a lady at the

church saying, Hey, love to connect you with our pastor. Come on in and we've set up a time. She

met me out. She opened the door for me, walked me in and we sat and talked for a little bit. I was

waiting for the pastor. And then I basically shared the story like I kind of did with you right

here in. And he said, Matt, like, why do you think all of these things have already said, no,

he said, Matt, you've got to give up control. And I said, no, I did that already. I'm already saved.

Like I've done that. Give me something else. He's like, no, no, like when those bad things

happen, you took control of your life, of your happiness, of your identity, of everything. And

he said, how's that going for you? And he basically, he told me you've got to look and take

accountability for the decisions that you've made, which I never had done up to that point. And so

pretty cool life changing moment there. But to me, it felt more like coming back home. It was

familiar. It wasn't like a, oh, I didn't know any of these things. It was more like a really

allowing God to live through me or move in my life and change some of those bad habits. Because

it may be over time, I'd be like, all right, I'm done. I'm not doing that anymore. And inevitably,

I would when I got upset or angry. And then another cool thing that I wasn't looking for when I

walked into church that day was the lady that answered the email and opened up the door.

We got married a year later. And then now we were celebrating. I think 13 or 14 years,

for 13 married 14 knowing her. But Jenna, I God put her there that day for a catalyst for change.

And I'm so thankful for that. Yeah. Wow. A non-believer would just say, wow, you're really lucky that you

just happened upon that. That's right. But what a coincidence. No. Yeah. Well, I love the redemption

that's kind of baked into that and how there's kind of a full circle moment there where the face that

led you to Baylor and may have wavered ultimately as strength. And then you once again kind of

understand and maybe you're living out that answer of when someone asked about your identity.

Man, it's so much better when we can actually be the thing we claim to be. Speaking of redemption

arcs, though, that same bright-eyed, brash, happy coach with his arms wide, talking about national

championships at Baylor actually wins one. Talk to me about how you and the leftovers,

like, do you claim some ownership in that process? What do you see yourself in the Baylor story

and specifically with Scott Drew? Do you think that that season ultimately helped lay the

foundation for what was the comment, Baylor? Well, okay. Sitting by my wife holding her hand,

watching Baylor win it in 2021. Incredible. Tearing up the whole time when we realize, okay,

they're actually going to hold Gonzaga off because I thought the whole time Gonzaga was going to

store back like there. No way are we going to hold this 20-point lead for this long. But man,

we did. And over the years, I've had some people thank me, thank some of my teammates. I'm sure

forced thing in what we did. For years after that, see, that my senior year, I thought nobody cared

that it was just this horrible, dark time that we don't want to think about or get past. I was

even reluctant to come back to campus for a few years after. Which was silly. That was all in my head.

And a few years after, I think, maybe 2008 or 2009, I'm not sure about that day, but I was

going to American Airlines to watch Baylor play Gonzaga, actually. And early on in their year

in Pastor Wyble, I saw him. He was our chaplain in my senior year. And I saw him and he gave me this

huge bear hug and he said, Matt, look out at the floor. And at that time, it was Perry Jones.

They had future NBA players already already. It was probably 2010 or so, but he's a look out the floor.

They said, this wouldn't be possible if not for what you guys did that year. And it's been

cool to hear that. It's humbling to hear that. Funny thing is Terrence, Terrence, it really

took the situation that happened to us back then and he made his life better from it. He's

stayed connected to the program. All the players in the last 20 years for the most part, no Terrence

because he's around. But he called me because a few years ago, I don't know who did it, but

somebody did a story about the foundation and the foundation for them was Henry Duga,

Curtis Gerald's. I think Mama Doe is probably in that. It was kind of that class or that group of

guys calling them the foundation. I get it because they were the first team to win. And it really

take us from like obscurity or a team that's just hanging around and playing hard to

were in March. We're in the dance now. They made it to March, man, it's five years after

that's the testament to coach Drew and his staff. How incredible they are. Building teams,

getting guys to come in and building that culture that people want to be a part of after we've only

had six dudes and all that scandal five years. It's incredible. But Terrence called me. He's like,

you believe that? We're the foundation. We are. That's a Terrence. I appreciate that, buddy.

Like I think only you and I care about that. But to be a small part of that championship

is humbling really cool, especially when that year for almost the entire season, I thought it

didn't matter. I didn't think what we did would ever mean anything to anybody. I got a box out.

I got to wedge myself back in here one more time. Matt says, quote, I didn't think that what we

did would ever mean anything to anybody. End quote. Even the title of his book, The Leftovers,

which we'll get to in a minute, gives testimony to how Matt felt like he'd worked his whole life.

Being that gritty, tough leadership first, glue guy who might only get you single digit points

for 38 minutes of work, but he'd also take three charges and two dives on loose balls and

double digit assists. He did all the little things. Only to have all of that go so horribly wrong.

It's stolen away just weeks before it culminated with that senior season that had transformed

almost overnight from promise and opportunity to tragedy and hopelessness. The whole thing

had stolen Matt's love for the game and he turned to a party scene to dull the pain. In that,

he created habits that would haunt him for years. But looking back now through trials and

experience and growth and grace, he can now see the role he played in a Baylor program that went

from the ashes and the tragedy of a murdered teammate and unspeakable awfulness in its wake

to a national championship less than two decades later. And it all started with those leftovers

and put that smiling, clapping and encouraging young coach by the name of Scott Drew.

And over the years, I've just found that to be so false and that people really do care

that we showed up, we played hard, we were coachable, we believed in each other

and we competed. And I think I think Terrence is right in the fact that I think we've gotten

our our just do like I think we're owed anything else. But um but no, we were definitely a part of

it. And and then other Baylor guys have just they just took it to all their levels with all of

the winning even before the championship. Our program had a 10 year run or so that was just

incredible. Yeah. Ian talked about Matt Samen, he's the head boys basketball coach at Midway High

School here in Waco and also the author of the leftovers Baylor betrayal and beyond.

Matt talked to me about how this idea to write the book came about and what was that process

like for you and how do you feel like your life up to that point prepared you to be an author?

And I love that and I don't I don't talk about this a lot. So thank you for asking that. Never

once jumped to be an author. Truly my only goal as a young person was to be a college basketball

player. I had no plan B. There was nothing after that. When I when I was asked to take what major,

I just asked what Logan want my roommate, what he was doing. Give me all this. He I literally

for two years had his same schedule. I think he was so sick of me because I and then

and then I even even when I said you have to choose a major, I asked some of my some of the seniors

on the team, what should I choose? I said, Oh, speech communications. It's the easiest one.

So I chose that and I don't think besides basketball and never thought of putting a book together.

And then I was at name and forest. It was my first high school coaching teaching job.

And somehow I've got so many recommended a book called Life at the end of the bench by Alan Williams.

And it was about his or it's called the walk on life at the end of the bench. And it's about his

four years either at Wake Forest or Georgia Tech. I'm not sure which one. But one four years

in college and I'm reading this and it's like speaking right to me of this is your same

story. It's the same battle except he was a walk on I was on scholarship. But my freshman year

to sophomore year, they recruited over me and got better. And I had to find a new way. My

sophomore in junior year, they recruited over me and got better and I had to find a new role.

And so I know I knew exactly what he was feeling going going through. And then when I was thinking

about his story and how his ended, it got to his senior year. And I then thought, whoa,

mine takes a huge shift at that point. And so I just started to research like what was, you know,

kids, you kind of you're in it. But you don't. It was one. I'm probably because of how I was living

at the time. But it was also just very cloudy of what it was really like. And I just tried

never to think about it. And so I just started going back through and researching from day to day

what was happening during that time. And then I got to the point where, okay, we're now

we're getting together and we're actually playing well against Purdue who was number 22 in the

country had beaten Duke earlier. We lost by three or four points to them. Okay, there's something

to what we did that year. I mean, really going back through the story. I would encourage

everybody to kind of do that. Maybe not in a book form, but look back over your story. And I

was able to really see a little bit more of the path of, you know, how I had gotten to where I was.

And so I wanted the book to be really three things. One is for the kid that wants to be a college

basketball player. Okay, what's the blueprint? And you're not Zion. You're not six eight.

As an eighth grader, your average. Can you do it? And so what's the manual? What were my workouts

like? What was the time investment? What did my family and I sacrifice to do that? And then

in all through high school. And then what's it like to actually survive at that level and not be a

stud and just make it? But, but be able to kind of create your own role in that role shift because

my freshman year I scored a lot or not a lot, but I scored sophomore junior year. I barely shot.

I was a defensive player. So you kind of have to morph and move. And then the leftovers part. But

the funny thing was is until Jana, I really didn't have the end of the book because it would have

read like this, like, how do you get to college? Okay, how do you survive? Oh, the this leftover

story. And then, oh, but he's still miserable now. He's still, he's still broken now. Yeah.

And searching and then Jana. And then that was the, it was able to have an end to it of, okay,

looking back, I see how God's hand was still with me through all of those times, still with our

program, with everybody involved. And, but I had 10, it took me five years to write it because

I'm, I can barely speak clearly as you can, as you could tell. And so hard to, hard to write it

didn't wanted to get everything right. And I had, had 10 different people edit it. And, and,

and actually tried the ghost writer thing first. And, but I really wanted it. If anybody ever reads,

I wanted them to read it like, this is a dude that knows basketball that really lived it.

And it has to sound like that. And when the ghost writer did his first little like chapter,

it was just the, the, that walked into the gym and he heard the swish of the net. And I was like,

no, no, that's not me. That doesn't, that's not it. So, went and actually wrote it, had a lot of

people help with that. My mom was one of the editors and she marked off all the things that she

didn't like, but had to make a choice to be transparent about the things I was struggling with

because I either make it something not real and authentic or I go all in and not hold anything back.

And, um, I had never go into detail on things, but just, just, just share the struggles. And then,

when we won it in 21, a Christian publisher, Whitaker contacted me about republishing it. So, I

self published first and then they actually came out and going through that process was really

cool because they made it that we took a 60 pages or so out and made it very like a lot more

clean. Everything with that was, was just so cool to be a part of. Yeah, it's awesome. I know that

reflection is a critical part of learning and just the process of going back through your story

and maybe processing those emotions that, you know, we're guys like we're, we don't think about how

we feel a whole lot and being forced to do that. I can say for myself, I've got a book I've been

working on for a while and there are times when I'm just not feeling it like the emotional toll that

it takes to remember what that season felt like. I've often used the analogy if you've ever had

an aquarium and it looks clean and you stir those rocks at the bottom and all that fish goop

like gets up in the water. It's like maybe I just need to leave those rocks alone like I don't want

to stir up that, that, that, that mass. It can be tough. It can be a heavy load but there's wisdom

and those lessons that wouldn't otherwise land on us sometimes without that reflection.

All I want to be conscious of your time, I've got two left for you here. One is one I've asked

of all my guests. If we were to watch a montage of your life, what song would you pick to play

in the background and why? I've never had that question and I may steal that from my speed round

with my Jamodi podcast. Oh man, I don't know why. Jeremy Camp, I can't believe Jeremy Camp

will take my life.

Okay, love it is a early 2000s Jeremy Camp song when he was way more rock.

But there's so many, it's like, because there's a fierceness to that song and when I was a player

of, I was in Iceland, they called me Matis Karati, which means Math the Devil, which don't like that part

but because I had a brand of playing that was fierce and intense and then with coaching I have to

kind of be careful with that and not to let that guy out sometimes but in the right way. But that song

Jeremy Camp take my life. There's a lot of great moments in that. Yeah, I give it all to you.

He says that repeatedly and I like that. Yeah, no, that's a jam. I have a playlist that I put

together with all of my guests picks. So you'll get dropped into that mix and then I'll also drop

the YouTube video of that song into the episode. That's good. That's really good.

Last one, I know you're fairly new in your role at Midway but the question I ask of all my guests,

the kind of the other one is what format is left under? You know, a few years ago, so I was at

Grapevine Faith Christian School for 12 years and that was my first head coaching job. I got to

coach my son through high school. He just graduated last spring and they were doing some interviews

there about legacy. And I wasn't trying to be annoying to him and I'm not trying to be

annoying to you either by answering your question this way, but he asked about legacy, what do you

want your legacy to be? And I think I just had finally gotten to the point with coaching,

with culture and things like that. I told him I don't worry or care about that. And he kind of went

like this. I was like, well, no, obviously, when it's all said and done, I'd like for it for

to be a good one. But my only focus is on being the best I can right now, not focusing on things

in the future that I can't control. And so it's kind of to your question is you asked,

say again, what's still left undone? Yeah. So the idea behind the show is sometimes we feel like

life is pulling us apart and we are unraveled and we feel like we've come apart and we're undone.

But then high achiever is different from others. They don't just sit in that wreckage. They

recognize that the Lord or if they're a non-deliver, maybe they find something, but they realize

they have a purpose left yet unfulfilled. And so that undone goes from being a negative to

it's a purpose that you're driving forward. I love that. And I actually will take that first part

of it. And I think I'm just becoming. And I'm becoming the coach that God wants me to be.

I'm becoming the husband that He wants me to be. And the only way that I know how to do that is

just to try to be faithful each day. So at Midway, in my first year, I just tried to do my very,

very best to show up and give those guys my best that day to not leave any moment out. And to leave

each day thinking, okay, whether we want or lost, successful or not, I gave them everything.

I think if I keep doing that just day after day, then I'll keep becoming. And I'm not trying

to be deep here. That's just how I feel because, yeah, state championship would be nice. I don't

see myself retiring. I can't. What else am I going to do? I love coaching and I love basketball.

I really just want to spend as much time with my wife, Jana, as I can. That's my favorite thing to do.

And then I want to continue to grow my relationship with the Lord through daily Bible reading

and from unreading other good books and staying in the word and memorizing more. I want to memorize

more verses. And like, so I don't know. But if I don't win a state championship, I know that that

doesn't make me a failure. If I could see it being a midway for a really long time, it's a great

school. This is an awesome place to live. And we've got great parents and great kids and great

students. So it's kind of a unique place. I'm 44, you know, 44. And I don't really have

anything because my childhood dream, I did it. You know, and not many people, there's this great

little, this aside now, but great little video by Randy Pausch called the last lecture. And in

that last lecture, he talks about he has six months left to live. And he knows that he's a professor,

six months left to live. And he does this last lecture about no regrets. What brick walls are really

in our lives for is to let us know how badly we want something. And he goes to all this childhood

dreams and how he was over his lifetime achieving them. Even he wanted to be, he wanted to be an

astronaut. So he went on that plane that takes you up and you're, you know, floating for like 10

seconds and then comes back down. But all of those things, I kind of feel like I did that.

I did achieve, I didn't expect to write a book or all those things, but those childhood dreams.

So now I, yeah, I just want to be faithful each day and work really hard. That led me to midway

because if you had told me in March of last year that I would, that'd be down here, I would have

probably said, I don't think so. So just being open and faithful to whatever he had wants me to do,

get my very, very best to whoever he has me leading at the time. And then man, enjoy all the time I

have with Janna. I'm sorry if that's a boring answer. No, I love it. I think sometimes we can,

we can overprogram that answer and we can be so driven by the assignment that just like you said

about Coach Drew, like when the day, every, every game is your champion. I mean, those,

yeah, those things can add a lot of moments of joy. So it doesn't feel like drudgery. It doesn't

feel like something I have to do. It feels like something I get to do. And it's pulling me

instead of feeling like something is kind of pushing me as I dig my heels in. So I love that.

You mentioned your, you've got a podcast. I know your book's available on Amazon. So give me some

socials where my listeners go to follow your work and stay connected with what you're doing.

It's a good question. I am active. And let's see. I think it's on accident Instagram just at

Matt underscore salmon. You can get the book on Amazon. It's the best way. And then the podcast,

yeah, the Jamoni podcast I've been doing it for five years. I put out one episode a week. And it's

just about leadership and culture. But I interview coaches and leaders. And most of the time,

they're basketball coaches, but it's just been talk about becoming every time I listen or have one

of those talks. I feel like galley. I'm so far from, you know, where, where, where you,

where you can't be or where coach some coaches are, which is okay. It's not, not comparing because

that's the thiefable joy. But just knowing that there's more that we can learn and do. But that's been

such a fun hobby that has ended up really being important. Yeah. It's tremendous.

Matt salmon here and I am undone.

You know, there's something that Matt said in this conversation that I just keep coming back to.

For most of that season, he thought it didn't matter. That it was just this dark chapter that

people would want to forget. And yet years later, he's sitting there watching Baylor win a national

championship and realizing that what they did mattered more than he ever understood in the moment.

Not because of the wins, but because they stayed. They showed up. They competed. They believed in

something that didn't yet exist. And I think that's part of this story that resonates for me the most.

Because most of us have seasons like that. I know I have. Seasons where it feels like nothing

we're doing is even moving the needle. Seasons where it feels like we're just grinding away

in isolation and obscurity. Where we start to wonder if any of it is even worth it to battle.

And what this conversation reminds us is this. Those might be the very seasons that are laying

the foundation for everything that comes next. Even if you can't see it yet. Even if nobody's

clapping, even if it feels like it doesn't matter, it does. So wherever you are right now,

if you find yourself in one of those seasons, stay. Keep showing up. Keep doing the work.

Because you might not be in the highlight reel right now, but you might be building the foundation.

I'm thankful to Matt for dropping in, and I hope you enjoyed our conversation.

For more info on today's episode, be sure to check it out on the web. Simply go to undenpodcast.com

backslash EP153 to see the notes, links, and images related to today's guest Matt Samen.

Some quick updates about the show. We dropped a ton since the last episode, but we've bounced back

kind of. After consistently being at number 4 in both education and self-improvement categories,

tied for the best standing and show history, we dropped down to 8. Before rebounding, and as of

this morning, I'm happy to say that we're back at number 4. At the same time, sadly, across all

categories, we dropped out of Apple's top 200 for the time being. But a little set back

our adversity has never been reason to complain around these parts. Just means there's an opportunity

ahead, so I'm hoping to get back in there between now and the next time we meet. If you want to

follow along and see our progress for yourself, you can now go to undenpodcast.com backslash rankings

and cheer me on. In the last month, we've had more than 14,000 downloads, and we aren't done yet.

If you'd be so kind as to share the show with a friend or leave a comment or a review,

that would be so sincerely appreciated.

Last episode, I introduced something new that I planned to be doing each episode.

It's kind of weird, but I call it the teal of the week. If you listen to my multi-part Larry

Johnson series, you heard me talk about how my deep love for teal started back in high school

with LJ and Hornets. It's not just a 90 staple. To me, it's a trademark. It's my signature color.

And if you're watching on video, you'll notice that although the new studio is brimming full of color,

for this episode, I was just wearing black t-shirt. But now as I record this commentary for this

episode, I am wearing my current absolute favorite shirt that lives in my closet.

It's a long sleeve Jordan brand Charlotte Hornets shooting shirt, and I love how it feels,

I love how it fits. I'm a performance scientist, and I like to let my data do my deciding.

So over the years, and the data backs me up on this, I've learned that the environments that we

create right down to how we decorate our space, what we choose to wear, all those things can

influence how we show up. So for me, teal has become that cue.

For me, it's become this subconscious signal that represents a clarity and energy and focus.

It's a small but consistent way to signal to myself. It's time to be present. It's time to be

intentional. It's time to do this and do it well. So each week, I'll be wearing a different teal shirt.

I'm usually tied to a team or a program, just as a way to keep that rhythm and that consistency.

So this week, it's one of my first teal teams, the Hornets. Back in the day, I had an original

Hornet starter jacket, a Charlotte windbreaker, one of those super cool magic Johnson all over

print Hornets T's. I've been looking for one of those on eBay for a minute, but they are rare,

and when I find them, they're like 150 bucks for a 30 year old t-shirt. I just can't force myself

to do it. I actually have a senior picture in my cheap knockoff Larry Johnson Hornets replica

Jersey, but all that to say, the Hornets and I go way back. So when I slip on this particular

shirt, whether I'm headed to the office to knock out some work, headed to the gym to lift or

headed to the court to play, I just feel better. And as prime time maybe said, at best,

years ago, I have a famous quote that you recognize. It said, look, feel good, feel good,

play good, play good, you pay good. See, you thought that quote was all of our sports. It's not.

That quote is about you. It is about life. Because if you look good, you feel good. If you feel good,

you perform good, and you perform good, what comes next? They pay good. So you never

wonder as to make that look, that presents, that genetic bond that you try to try.

Because you got it. Don't give up on you, but it all starts with you.

Coming up on the show, I've got former division one strength coach, turned pastor,

Chris McCormick. I've also got a couple of other guests that I'm super excited about, but

I'm not going to jinx myself till I get those interviews recorded, keeping them to myself.

So let's just say there's more incredible conversations headed your way on becoming undone.

Becoming undone is an eye-truck creative production written and produced by me,

Toby Brooks. Tell a friend about the show and follow along on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn

at becoming undone pod. And follow me at Toby Brooks PhD on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn.

Check out my link tree at linktr.ebackslashtoby Brooks PhD. Listen, subscribe, and leave me a review

on Apple podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or wherever you get your podcasts. Till next time,

keep getting better.