162: The Relaxback UK Show with Mike Dilke - Episode 162

Hi, I'm Mike Delk and you're listening to the Relax Back UK Show. The show that explores

all kinds of health topics relevant to you, your family and your friends.

Each week I talk to expert guests from a range of backgrounds to inform and entertain you.

So please do join the Relax Back UK family and stay tuned.

Hi and thank you for joining me on the Relax Back UK show.

I guess this week is Dr Martha Calado and the topic is online smartphones,

mistruths, bad info and lies that can fill children's heads with absolute rubbish.

This is vital stuff for adults, for children and for adults with children.

There are many different thoughts but also some definite facts.

Is it important for parents to know and understand?

Is anything your child does online or goes online on a free platform?

The child is the data. If it's free and it costs nothing to you, then you're the one making their money.

That is a fact. Dr Martha and myself discuss all kinds of things.

We disagreed on some but I think we agreed on more than we didn't.

This is important stuff and you do need to think about it.

Every single time they open a device that takes them into the online world, it's like opening a door.

It's opening a door and they're leaving and they're going on a digital playground.

You need to have the conversation, the open dialogue about what are you doing?

Please do stay tuned for a great show. Thank you.

This show is called...

I had a great discussion with Dr Martha Calado. She's a clinical psychologist covering online kids and smartphones

and all sorts of ways of getting online, mistruths, bad info, lies.

We covered many things but my first question to her was a simple one.

What is the difference between a psychiatrist and a clinical psychologist?

Oh yeah, great question very briefly. I'm a clinical psychologist which is a protective title but psychologist is not.

So I'll start there.

I have a clinical psychologist on this show. We talk about that quite a lot. So yes, good.

I'm a clinical psychologist. I have a protective title qualification under HCPC and I'm a regulated professional.

Psychiatrists are medical doctors. I am not a medical doctor. I did not do medical training first and then become a clinical psychologist.

But to be a psychiatrist, you train in medicine and then you do psychiatry which is focused on mental health and the kind of medications that they give you for mental health.

So the main difference is I'm not a medical doctor and I don't prescribe medication.

We do talking therapies. We do lots of work with children, families, adults, schools. It can be all over in the community, in hospitals.

We work with psychiatrists a lot of the time but we don't do the prescriptive medications and we're not medical doctors.

Okay, you can use the title doctor because you've done a PhD. Is that correct in your case?

It's a doctorate. The clinical psychology. So I've done a PhD level thesis but I'm a doctor because I've done a doctorate.

Clinical psychology is a doctorate. It's actually funded by the NHS and so we work in the NHS while we train.

And you need to do three years of undergraduate psychology. Then you need to work in the NHS most of the time to get some practice like practical skills.

And then you only get on the training through an interview process which is very very competitive because it's funded.

So some people have to wait many years to get through but you know it's and it's three years and you work in the NHS two days of the week and three days of the week you go to university.

And you do a doctorate.

Alright, so this is not a simple road is it? It's quite a long road to become a clinical psychologist.

Yes, yes, and we train across the lifespan. So I didn't train just with children initially. I trained with all the adults.

I trained with adults. I trained you know with people who have physical health, people who have mental health problems, people who need safe guarding, social care all sorts.

And you train in everything and then you specialise and my speciality is working with children and families.

I also did an extra specialism in family therapy. So I'm family therapy trained as well.

And I've been I've been qualified for 20 years now. So there you go.

Very full answer. Thank you very much indeed.

So on onto today's topic, phones and mistruths and addiction and all that.

It's very topical really because yesterday I'm sure you see it in the news. Meta and Google were found liable by a jury in Los Angeles for one particular woman claiming that it essentially ruined her life from childhood because she was addicted to social media and phone.

So really I'm just starting off, you know, phones are just a disaster aren't they filling children's heads with rubbish.

Well, I love the way I love that we're talking about it more now. I love that you know Meta has been made accountable for the first time in history.

I think it sets like a really big precedent. And I think this actually aligns really nicely with the Tesco mobile campaign, which is all about misinformation online.

And you know, the algorithm has been sharing misinformation harmful content, you know, false news.

And we know statistically that information goes across twice as often as real news and real content, right?

Misinformation. We've got data on it. Misinformation is more appealing. It tends to trigger more emotions. So it's more emotive.

People have really strong feelings about it. And when it comes to children and young people, they are more impulsive because they have a developing brain.

And they're more likely to click on it. So with Tesco mobile, they did some research and they found that, you know, let me just interrupt you there, though.

Go on.

All that you're saying is true, but it seems to me that, you know, they're addictive. We don't sell cigarettes to children.

In the same way, I would suggest actually, you know what, we shouldn't let small children up to what age can be debated, use phones, because their minds are developing.

As you said, you know, they can be persuaded and all sorts of rubbish. Well, I'll tell you what, let's just stop them using them.

It's easy to say difficult to do, but I can't help thinking that for small children, that's got to be a much more sensible option.

I see you're nodding your head. I like that. Good.

I mean, I agree with you. I think smartphones were not created for children. I talk about this all the time.

I think the complexity of being a parent in the current society is that the online world isn't just on a smartphone. It's also on a tablet. It's on a computer.

Children have access to Google, and you know, Google is also part of the news story recently, but that's why I think these kinds of campaigns are so important, because we need to teach children to spot misinformation.

And like you said before, we are terrible at it too, like as adults, we don't have these skills. We did not grow up with technology, the way that children are growing up with it.

We kind of have to catch up. And you know, the kind of skills that come through in the video that Tuscan Mobile created for young people is so powerful, because for me, they're the kind of foundational skills that we all need.

And they're things like when you're watching content online, you need to pause, right? And use your thinking brain before you click or share.

I'm just going to interrupt you. Apologies Martha, but it's my show.

I agree with everything you're saying that we do need to learn how to tell what's utter rubbish and people trying to pull the wool over eyes in all walks of life, but certainly when it comes to online stuff.

But I would suggest that for small children, just kind of trying to not get into them, keep them out of that world is by far the best thing to do.

And actually, I did a little bit of research before we chatted the tech bros, the people that own these companies, that is what they do for their children.

And I found some names. Okay, Steve Jobs. Okay, he's not with us anymore. He didn't let his children use the iPad much at all. Mark Zuckerberg, so owner of Facebook, who was part of this court case yesterday, allows tech, but with very strict controls and supervision.

Bill Gates didn't allow smartphones for his children till the age of 14.

So it's not just little of me who is a civil engineer and just has children with no real studying at this saying that actually small children should be kept away from this stuff.

The people that own it and develop it is kind of saying the same things as well.

And I can't help thinking that some of the results from the survey that Tesco did saying, well, I'm going to get you to quote me some of the stats there saying a massive percentage of parents have corrected their children through quoting rubbish that they've got through online.

And I've got to say that's an argument for keeping them away from this stuff, not letting them loose on it, isn't it?

So I'll start from where you started because I'm completely aligned with you, Mike. Like I think you're talking my language.

I wrote an entire book on this topic and I don't think smartphones were created for children. I don't think children should be online.

Like as a professional, it's not just you as an opinion or these tech bros talking about it.

Like one of the things I do want to say because it is important for parents to know and understand is anything your child does online or goes online on a free platform, your child is the data.

If it's free and it costs nothing to you, then you're the one making their money.

I think that's a really important kind of fact to we know from like off-com and we've got tons of data that by the age of 11 right now, right now, children have smartphones and it's ubiquitous, right?

Now, I think two things can be true. I think we can build awareness, which is exactly what we're doing and I love these conversations.

I think we can build awareness without creating fear or shame on parents who have already given children access to technology in my view too soon because I, you know, children should not be accessing apps or social media, absolutely no way.

Mike, I've got a daughter. She had a phone at age 15, my son who's a bit younger, we kind of gave in a bit earlier and I think he was 11 or 12 when he got a phone.

So I think this is the bit of the conversation that's really important. I think for parents like me, I'm a mum of two, but they're young, they're seven and two and a half, I can delay, right?

I'm now in the generation of parents, I can say we're going to delay this and you're going to access this as late as possible.

But in the meantime, I'm going to teach you skills because it's not good enough to just delay, delay without education is just avoidance.

And for those young people who already have the technology in their hands, maybe your children, other people's children, I don't believe in fear mongering or shame, I do believe in awareness.

We need to be aware about what these algorithms, what these tech pros are throwing into our children's laps.

I think you could stop without fear mongering, like you could stop.

Yeah, I mean, it's very difficult, but I do think if we put more effort into stopping primary school children using these things.

Oh no, I think lots of primary school children are not using these things. I think it's when they go to secondary that it's a problem.

But I think, like I said before, two things can be true. You can delay and you can stop it.

If you're the kind of parent who's like, I want to stop this. I gave it to you too soon. I want to take it away.

That's your choice. Go for it. I also think it's a golden opportunity when your child, you know, your 12, 13, 14, 15 year old.

They've already got the technology. You can one set tighter boundaries and limits on it and do it as a family rather than controlling your child.

Actually, lead by example and say, I'm going to say healthy habits with my own technology because what we know from the data as well is that adults are really bad at technology.

And they're really bad at spotting misinformation. So a little bit of data.

There's this data from internet matters that eight out of 10 parents are really concerned about misinformation online, but only 48%.

That's not even half feel confident enough to have the conversation with their children because they don't even know how to spot it themselves.

So if you don't have to spot misinformation, how can you teach your children how to do it?

And again, I think this brings us back to these campaigns, you know, the Tesco mobile campaign and Tesco mobile doesn't just smell smartphones.

They sell all sorts of devices and I do think mobile phones are a different entity to a smartphone in terms of what kids can access.

If you need to contact your 14 year old, use a mobile phone and teach them to take it out with them when they need it and put it away when they're at home.

They don't need it. Like you can teach kids very good healthy skills with tech if you're willing to put in the effort and the time and I think it's worthwhile.

But this kind of campaign is teaching parents as well as children, critical thinking skills.

If you have strong emotions online, maybe you need to pause and then rather than click, comment.

I mean, I work online, the amount of parents, parents, adults, I don't know if they're parents who write atrocious comments online on other adults posts.

I find shockingly embarrassing because you would never do this to somebody down the street.

You would never just fling your comment that's going to be hurtful to someone as they walk past you.

But online, we seem to think all of these things are allowed.

They're not allowed. We need to learn how to be better digital citizens online and we need to teach our children before they get there.

So I think...

So tell me what sort of age are Tesco doing these courses?

So these are for primary school.

So before they've got the technology, the whole idea is that children can be with a teacher, a safe adult and look at content that teaches them about online misinformation

before they've even got it, fingers crossed.

If they've got it, maybe it'll teach them skills that they don't have, but hopefully most of them don't have it yet.

And the whole idea is that it supports them to learn critical thinking skills.

How do I spot misinformation?

What does AI look like?

If I'm trying to figure out, is this a real video?

Is this a real image?

What does AI look like?

And it's really engaging because, you know, angry ginger is really engaging.

He's a really fun guy who leads the video and I also love that it is a video because that's the kind of content kids see online.

When we just sit and talk or do things on paper and we're talking about the digital world, children's brains do not connect the two things.

If we want them to connect, what, Terry?

This whole idea of doing a course for primary school children with someone who I've never heard of Angry Ginger before.

But I imagine he's someone who is online, who kids love.

And then, you know, I'm glad to hear that it's not an online course.

No, no, no, no, no, no, it's not online.

But it will get children talking about this stuff.

Who's got a phone? Have you got a phone?

If kids don't have a phone at this point, they're going to feel left out.

I tell you what it feels like to me.

It feels like taking someone who's an alcoholic down the pub to talk about their problems.

It just seems disastrous.

Absolutely.

I find that such an interesting point of view.

I don't agree.

Obviously, I don't agree, genuinely, as a professional, because the one thing,

and I'll use your alcohol analogy, which I don't think is right, with smartphones,

but that's okay. Lots of people do it.

They always support alcohol and cigarettes.

I didn't think it through. I'll just set that up.

No, no, no. I'm going to use it.

I'm going to use it because I do think it's helpful.

Right. If we want to educate our kids how to drink well and drink responsibly, what do we do?

Do we just avoid alcohol altogether or do we teach them?

No, we have a glass of wine at the dinner table with the family.

But we talk, don't we?

Like, I talk to my seven-year-old about alcohol.

Because if she's at Christmas and there's adults, we don't drink very much.

So she will never see that in my house because we're not showing it.

But we've been to weddings and people get drunk and she's seven.

And if she sees it, she will be like, why is that adult looking different, acting different, speaking different?

We need to talk about it.

So we talk about alcohol. We tell her it's a drug.

We tell her when people have too much. This is what happens.

If it's scary to her, we explain it.

Because it's not good enough to be like, you're not allowed to drink.

It's okay to say to your child, you're not getting a smartphone.

Yeah.

Anytime soon, not till you're 15 or 16.

It's a different state because your child is not allowed to drink wine, have wine.

She's not surrounded.

But it's around.

Yes, I know.

It's illegal for companies to try and sell her a phone, wine, alcohol.

Right.

Companies that sell phones, they're allowed to sell them to anyone.

They're allowed to sell one to parents who are giving them to their kids.

But that's why we need to build awareness with parents, surely, no?

Yeah.

You don't think we need to?

I'm on your side, but I think the big difference between us is the age.

I do all this stuff in big school.

So, okay, I'm going to bring you to a different analogy.

I really disagree with you.

OK, health radio.

The station I make you feel good.

OK, health radio.

The station I make you feel good.

And as a clinical psychologist, I have to completely disagree with this kind of model.

Because to me, this is no difference to talking about sex.

When I hear adults say, don't sexualize children by telling them anything about sex

before their teenagers, before their 11.

Do not speak about it.

I just think you don't understand child development.

You don't understand risk like you don't get it.

And you don't understand the harm you do by just moving the education until they're older.

Because to me, that's about an adult discomfort.

It's not the benefit of children.

Little children need to understand about sex.

The same way they need to understand about alcohol.

The same way they need to understand about mobile phones.

And this isn't just about mobile phones.

It's also about online kind of the digital diet that they might be consuming online.

Which we're consuming to every day.

The reason being that when little ones don't understand sex,

for example, until they're older, harm happens to them.

It's a fact.

Children are more likely to be sexually abused, molested, and come to harm

when they don't understand anything, including correct anatomy labels.

Why?

Because predators, and we have loads of evidence of this, will target them.

They'll be like, you don't know what that part of your body is called.

So if I touch it and tell you it's called a cookie, this has happened as a clinical psychologist.

Okay, real story.

If I tell you to cookie and I can lick it, no one will find out what I'm talking about.

It's happened.

It's happened to lots of people.

Believe it or not, it's hard reality.

Now, we're talking about the online world.

You can protect your child as a parent in your house.

You cannot protect them when they go to school.

You cannot necessarily protect them when they go to a friend's house

and they've got an older brother who's online, who's playing a video game,

who is on his mobile phone.

I'm saying he could be she, of course.

You know, gender can be interchangeable.

But you cannot.

The way we protect our children is through education.

I always say the highest layer of protection for children is when you, as a parent,

become trusted and at the moment, what this campaign is showing is that children

don't trust their parents to talk about misinformation online.

Okay.

The data says that.

Children can understand more than we give them credit for.

There's absolutely no question about that.

But for your analogy, I mean, it's a little bit like for the sex thing.

It's almost like a child sex ring teaching the children about this stuff.

Because I mean, Tesco's, Tesco's, they're objective.

I mean, they're a money-making organization.

They sell things that we all need.

They sell phones.

But cell phones are not all smartphones.

You don't understand.

I think a company like Tesco Mobile doing something like this is incredibly positive.

This isn't meta.

This is not meta.

Okay. Let's separate two things.

Tech, Bros, and companies who offer us digital kind of, I don't know what we call them,

like laptops, computers, all the things that we use every day.

You're telling me that children aren't going to be using this.

They use them in schools, right?

So things like they're incredible kind of what they're trying to do,

which is invest 200,000 pounds in primary schools to help with digital literacy.

They're not handing smartphones to children.

They're offering to offer things like laptops.

So I don't know about primary schools.

But my child has digital literacy.

She talks about stuff.

She's already learning about it and she's seven.

And that is healthy.

I am very happy.

We need more of this in the curriculum because at the moment it is not fit for purpose.

Okay.

The way kids are taught about digital misinformation, scams online.

How to be, you know, how to interact with people online.

Digital consent doesn't even exist on the curriculum right now.

And we need it.

It's important.

And yes, you can do these things at home as a parent.

I do.

I teach my daughter about digital consent just by having the conversation of,

is it okay for me to share this photo of you with grandma?

How many parents do that?

I bet not that many, but I do.

Because I'm aware of what my daughter needs in order to be safe.

And she's not going to be online anytime soon without my supervision.

But this is a really important thing that they're doing.

Because I know what you're saying and people might have that view.

And if that's your opinion, that's fine.

I'm not going to stop selling mobile phones or computers or tablets.

And parents are not going to stop buying them.

But if you do, maybe you should be aware of how to use them well.

And if you are able to use them better, maybe they won't be so toxic or unhealthy on our children.

Yeah.

No, I agree with all that.

I think maybe they should be doing the course for adults then.

So I think this is a great video to watch as a parent.

I mean, I'm part of the video.

I'm in it giving you the expert tools.

But I think it's great because I don't know that many parents that do things like critical thinking online.

I don't know how many parents adults transition from going online like working on a laptop.

And then into the real world doing pickup.

Do you do an emotional transition?

Do you actually let your body regulate?

Because you should.

You should.

And actually when we teach these skills really young to our kids, we embed them as habits.

That serve them, you know, long term.

They're habits that I don't have that I'm learning alongside my kid now.

You know, I make sure that if I come offline and she's talking to me, I go, just give me a minute.

Have a sip of water.

It only takes like 30 seconds.

I breathe.

And I just say to her, give me a minute.

I might move around.

And then I'm like, okay, now I'm present.

I can be with you.

How many people do that?

They probably don't.

And that's why we snap out our kids quicker.

Because it's this regulating to go online.

And misinformation is one of the things that we know breeds anxiety uncertainty.

It makes young people really confused.

So why can't we teach this to our little ones before they become teenagers who land in the same traps as the teenagers of today?

I think it's a really helpful kind of way of educating our kids.

That is safe and non-scary.

And I will also say it's not like super branded or anything.

They've just poured money into a resource for schools.

Which, you know, at the moment, schools are really, really asking for this kind of support.

And internet matters has been fundamental in offering some of this data.

And they are people that I've worked with before and I trust.

And I would highly recommend people go to internet matters online.

But also the Tesco mobile hub where you can say I would like my school to win there 200,000 pounds or some of the pot of the money for digital literacy.

And Tesco will provide the stuff, but they won't be doing that.

The teachers have to do that, of course, you know, and it's not online.

We're not about, I'm not about putting kids online more.

I'm all about getting them offline, but being safer when they go there.

You mentioned internet matters.

Yes.

So internet matters is an organization and you can go, you can find them online.

And they've done loads of research.

They've got tons of resources for parents.

They work closely with Tesco mobile as do I, as a clinical psychologist, because where do parents and young people access?

You know, things like this.

Through some online Tesco mobile.

So I feel like you have to go where people are going to access it.

So internet matters offers really, really great resources.

Things on how to have safe conversations about the online world.

Talking about really tricky topics, whether it's porn or something distressing.

Your kids have seen online.

Talking about AI.

How to spot it.

What is the charity?

What is it?

I can't.

I don't want to say the wrong thing.

I think they're an organization, but they're not funded by anyone specific.

So I think they are probably a charitable organization, but, you know, yes.

But they are, you can go and find them online, Mike.

Have a look, because they're really, really good.

They're an online digital safety charity.

There we go.

Okay, very good.

Very, very good.

Excellent.

Look, we've, we've covered lots of, lots of things.

I think we can safely say there are many people that have different views on, on, on, on all this stuff.

Actually, including, let's, I'm just going to quite something from the Prime Minister.

Last month, he wrote on substack.

Social media has become something that is quietly harming our children.

And he wants to crack down on the addictive elements and never ending scrolling that keeps our children hooked on their screens for hours, et cetera.

So I think probably we both agree on that.

We might not necessarily agree on exactly when to do it.

And I, I can see the discussion going on for quite a while yet, because this, this is a question that is not going to go away.

And I think having the conversation is so key.

What I would say to parents whose children are online, maybe like yours, Mike, is please keep an open dialogue about what your child sees, does he is online.

It's so important.

The same way there, if they go to a friend's house, you might be like, oh, so what did you do there?

What did you talk about?

What did you guys do?

Did you have fun?

How did you feel after, you know, after the play day or, you know, as teenagers, they're not called play dates.

But when you hang out, how did it feel?

You need to be doing the same when your child goes online.

You need to.

It's like necessary.

The way I visualize it is every single time they open a device that takes them into the online world.

It's like opening a door.

It's opening a door and they're leaving and they're going on a digital playground.

You need to have the conversation, the open dialogue about what are you doing?

Who were you seeing?

How did you feel while you were there?

The kind of content that you read?

Was it real?

How do you know that it was misinformation or not?

Who said it?

Like, did you share something?

What did you share?

Why did you choose to share that in the WhatsApp?

Like, why?

And we should be asking ourselves those same questions because otherwise we're just spreading this information

and we're actually causing harm to each other and, like, passing it around.

I think the main difference probably between us is the fact that my kids, well, you're kids are younger.

But my kids got phones at 15 and 12.

And I think if everybody's kids got phones at, kind of, teenage years, that would be a healthier thing.

And then those discussions don't have to happen when the kids are five.

I mean, we're not having these discussions when children are five.

We're teaching them skills.

We are not having these discussions.

I mean, I probably won't be having this discussion with my 12-year-olds because she won't have a smartphone at 12.

Fact.

No chance.

Never going to happen.

Her brain has not developed enough.

She is way too impulsive.

12-year-olds do not make healthy choices.

They are really impressionable online.

They are the ones who are spreading most of the misinformation online.

They are the ones who are getting a huge amount of anxiety from group chats, for example,

where misinformation gets spread over, like, in one group chat,

the teenagers I work with because teenagers are my thing.

They tend to get over 200 WhatsApp messages in one chat group every day.

Like, the amount of anxiety that technology is breeding on children is unbelievable.

And that's not even talking about, you know, when you go online.

So even just being able to understand that when they're on a WhatsApp and they get a video and they click on it,

do they need to click on it?

Like, is that necessary?

Can they go, well, my mate sent it?

Which is part of this format from Tesco Mobile in the video,

and Regenge gets a message from a friend.

And he's got to decide whether it's real, worthy of a click, and what he should do.

And he chooses and breaking the, you know, what's it called when you, like,

reveal something before they watch it.

But yeah, but he clicks it because he's like, but it's my mate and I trust them.

And it's absolutely not taking him to the page that he thinks it's taking him.

It's a risk.

It's a risk.

And it's unnecessary that our children have to experience that.

So my 12-year-old will probably never experience it because I'm from a different generation of,

we have the knowledge now.

But lots of people like you and your kids are like, what do I do about it now?

There's no point in shaming me or blaming me.

I'm not, I'm not going to be doing that.

That's not, that's not like my ethos.

My ethos is all about you can learn new skills and it's never too late.

And you can support and protect your kids by opening up these conversations.

So you're teenagers on WhatsApp.

Let's talk about it.

Let's talk about what you're seeing.

What's that video your friends sent you?

Did you share that?

And what is it?

Are you sure it was created by the person you think?

What was it created for?

Like, what is the aim of content?

It's really important.

We do these things so quickly.

It's very impulsive because the way screens work on our brain is that they come in like passively

and we react.

We want to change that into a response.

Because when you react, you react from a place of emotion.

When you respond, you are switching on your thinking brain.

So I think these skills are fundamental and they need to be built as early as we can

because technology will train us to do the opposite of what we need to do.

Excellent.

All right.

I'm going to have to invite you back when the debate.

Hots up here about social media and 16-year-olds.

Which is coming out.

Bring me on.

They were.

Well, I must admit, I haven't really followed closely what's happening in Australia.

But I know there's been a lot of talk about that.

So I would love to chat to you again about that.

But for now, please, can you give the resources online that Tesco have produced

and this internet matters?

Good resources for any parents that are thinking about this stuff.

So Tesco Mobile has a hub.

What is the address?

Isn't this bad?

Let me, they'll send it to me in a sec.

But I know it's like Tesco Mobile Hub online.

I think if you just Google that, you should come up.

All right.

And there's resources that are totally free created by experts, including internet matters.

And internet matters is just internet matters.org.

And I think you can get, I'm just going to double check it.

I know what this is.

Yeah, internet matters.org.

And you can, parents can access a ton of useful resources on there.

And if you would like, as a parent or a school, teachers can apply for funding from this grant from Tesco Mobile.

It's £200,000 towards digital literacy education in schools.

So it's to support schools and being able to offer this to children.

Then you can go to TescoMobile.com.

I think.co.uk.

Wait, let me check.

Sorry, Mike.

Tesco Mobile.

It's a Tesco Mobile Hub.

So I'll find out which one it is.

Yeah, TescoMobile.com.

And it's the, it's the hub.

And you can put in the details for your school, and then you can be put towards possibly getting awarded a grant for digital literacy.

Excellent.

Look, Martha, thank you so much for taking the time to chat really good discussion. So many thanks.

Thank you.

It was great.

I always, always enjoy a good conversation on this topic, because I think all views and opinions are allowed.

And we need to have more of the debate, rather than this polarized, I'm right.

You're wrong.

You know, we need to like join forces and open up the conversation.

So thank you, Mike.

Thank you very much to Dr. Martha Collado for being such a great guest this week.

Thank you to you for listening and have a healthy week.

Until next week.

Thanks for listening to the relaxed back UK show.

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