362. The Pink Pill

Before we dive into today's episode, I have a big invitation, especially for my Pacific

Northwest people.

If you're anywhere from Vancouver, British Columbia, down through Seattle and Portland,

I want to see you in Bellingham, Washington, on March 22nd, for a live screening event

for the M-Factor 2.0 documentary before the pause.

We'll be at the beautiful Mount Baker Theatre, doors open at 1pm, program starts at 2pm, March

22nd.

This is a Sunday.

We'll watch the documentary together, and I'll be on stage for a live conversation

with some of my favorite Perry Manopause experts, including doctors, EFO Sullivan, and Rachel

Boyle, a sex therapist, talking about what women actually need to know about midlife hormones

and sexual health.

And I'm going to ask a favor of you.

When we did this two years ago, the number one complaint was, I didn't know about it.

So if you're listening to this right now, share this.

Send it to friends, post it, text it, tell your book club, tell the women you lift

a weights width.

If you're local, please share it with your community.

Just fill the theater with women who deserve better information about their bodies and

the people who love them.

Men are welcome too.

If you can't make it in person, the documentary premiere will be on PBS on March 19th, so you

can still watch it from home or with your book club.

And for those coming to Bellingham, our wonderful local bookstore, Village Books, will be in

the lobby selling books before and after the show.

You can grab tickets through the Mount Baker Theatre website or go to these podcast show

notes or my event page on www.kellycastpersonsmd.com.

All right, now let's get into today's episode.

Welcome to You Are Not Broken, the podcast that challenges everything we've been taught

about midlife, hormones, and sexuality.

I'm Dr. Kelly Casperson, board certified urologist, author, and a leading voice in women's

sexual and hormone health.

Enjoy the show.

Hey everybody, welcome back to The You Are Not Broken Podcast.

This is the most people we've ever had on a podcast in one day.

There's five of us, and we're very excited because what we're doing today is we're getting

the word out about an amazing documentary that's up now on Paramount Plus called The Pink

Pill.

And everybody here is involved and I'm so excited, everybody's here on the podcast to generate

awareness and interest.

So you guys just want to go around and introduce yourselves and like how you're involved

in this documentary, then we'll get into it.

We'll start with Julie.

I'll call on you.

Who'd be easier?

So I'm one of the executive producers on the project and I work with these other gals

here.

And you know, we started this project about two and a half years ago and we're thrilled

that it's going to be out to viewers shortly.

Amazing.

Thank you.

Abby, welcome.

Hi, thrilled to be here.

I'm Abby Greensfelder, one of the EPs of the project and helped develop this project

working on it for many years.

Learned about Cindy through Dr. Rubin, who I know is a friend of yours, and we're thrilled

to get this film out to the world.

I love it.

Ash, how about you?

Hi, my name is Ashling Cheny.

I'm the director, curator, AP for this film as well.

And yeah, very, very excited to finally launch this baby out into the world and to see

what kind of reaction we get, what kind of ground swell we get.

Amazing.

And last but not least, last for a reason, Cindy, welcome.

Hi, I'm Cindy Eckert, the founder of the pink pill and sprout.

Dr. Casper, send we go way back.

But how lucky am I that I'm here only as the subject to got these remarkable women who cold

called me one day and said, we'd like to go tell this story to the world.

And I think it's so aligned with your work you started by saying, all of us are involved

in the film.

I think you too, in terms of a leading voice in the change that we're creating in the

conversation on women's sexual health.

Amazing.

And for people who don't know, this documentary is basically taking us through the history

of getting flabancer and our Adi FDA approved for hypoactive sexual desire disorder in women.

And it's a phenomenal historical record because it's like multiple presidencies.

What I was so shocked by is how long people were on this journey for.

Fifteen years of this, right, of just, and I think that was, it's interesting when these

great women you're meeting today approach you about the film, I think I'd never really

allowed myself to go back, you know, it was hard for me to go back.

I think I was so traumatized by it and all candor, I think it was tough to live through.

And for fifteen years, I just told myself, look forward, keep moving, make progress.

And so this journey for me has actually been quite therapeutic in that, you know, when

you revisit the past, you can break a whole new future wide open.

It's been a long time in the making, right?

I mean, you think, you know, we're put, we're put here to do whatever work we're put here

to do.

And I think looking at you and they say they say this in the film of like, you were in

the Viagra world, right, like Viagra didn't exist, then it existed and then it exploded.

And you were involved in that culture.

So you're like 90% of men are heterosexual who was taking care of the people that are

supposed to be sleeping with the people we're giving Viagra to is always my talk.

The energy behind Viagra and then to be thrust into like, let's just have some access

for women and then to kind of have the doors slammed, proverbially or not metaphorically.

Do anybody want to speak on that?

I mean, it was really fascinating for me to come into this process after this at all,

after this at all gone down, you know, but also still having never heard of Adi,

it's never been, I've never had the questions posed to me from my doctor about how my

sex life was going.

If I even brought it up, I know they would look at me with like horror on their faces before

they ushered me out the door, being allowed to ask like two questions and then you got to go.

So it was really revealing that you had gone through this entire journey and it was obviously

very publicized when it happened, but it's still not part of the cultural lexicon like Viagra is.

And so why is that?

Why are we still so resistant to talk about women's sexual health or to talk about

sexual function more openly in any context if it's not about a penis getting rigid?

Yeah.

And you know, as filmmakers, we went down to show this to Cindy, which is a very terrifying

moment as a filmmaker.

It wasn't that Cindy had editorial control or could make any changes, but we went down to rally

and we showed her the film.

And after we showed the film, there was complete silence.

Also not the kind of reaction you want to get after you've been working on something for a few

years. But Cindy said, which is just a testament to, you know, her strength and her adaptability,

she said, it's just so hard to see that.

It's so hard to see that fight that happened.

And I'm not the same woman as I was then.

And I really at that moment understood how kind of gargantuan that was and completely understood

how it would be so difficult and take so much courage to actually revisit that and then to

trust the process and the filmmakers to put this story out in a way that Cindy could continue

to look forward.

So again, it's having a subject that says courageous as Cindy has really been a gift.

To pass the love here, I said it at the beginning, like how lucky am I that the women who are

sitting on this scene right now with me would tell that story.

And I think that was what really spoke to me so deeply is that we are kindred spirits

and the impact that we want to see in this world.

And I think for the maybe the first time ever, when I sat down across from journalists,

having no control, you know, at all and what's going to happen here, I was met with neutrality.

And that was unbelievable to me because all they wanted was the truth.

And I think it's so lovely to hear you know Julie's experience sitting in the room with me.

I'm getting like I'm tearing up right now because I think my experience, I walked into that room

and like the pink armor was on.

I was just like don't react, don't just sit, just sit.

And I probably was like biting my tongue as hard as I could the whole time so that I didn't reveal,

you know, but I think probably I was about maybe two minutes in and I could feel, you know,

my eyes like just welling up with tears because I was transported back to it.

And that's what I think is so powerful for people watching this is they get to go back and be

in the room with the people who made it happen.

And there were remarkable women who stood up and stood, you know, at the FDA and said,

do better, help me.

And that's what's so potent in this.

And I think the takeaway message for everyone who watches it, why you fight for what's right?

Yeah. I mean, I think the women's stories of the ones who are in the trial, who went to the FDA,

who testified, who said like, I don't have the money to be doing this.

But I believe so strongly in this that it's life-briving, life-changing for people that I'm here.

I think they're the heroes of the story.

I mean, these are, you're every day, I don't know where they're from, but it could be living in Kansas,

right? Tennessee, anywhere, people who live lives like the rest of us.

And they came to fight for this medication. It's like, you don't see that with like a high blood pressure

medication, right? It's pretty moving. And I think that you told their stories so beautifully that

I was like, these are the heroes of this. I mean, Cindy's obviously the hero because it wouldn't

exist without you. But the women's stories, they're incredible.

And I think when we were developing this story, one of the things I did was to go to

Eswetch and meet Erwin Goldstein. And he was the one that said that he had these videos

of women that he had done for the trials, which are in the film and Ash and team track those down,

which was challenging, and then track down some of those women who now all these years later

could tell their story. And I thought that was like you Kelly, and incredibly powerful

machines to see also the authenticity of these women in the moment who had really been struggling.

And once they were on this medicine and trials, it changed their lives. Then they couldn't get it.

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m-i-d-i.com. This is a story about perseverance. And it would have been easy then to just say,

oh well, let's let it go. Let's not take it to market. At so many moments, it would have been easy,

but I think that was part of what Cindy said in the beginning when we were developing this project

is those women were the people who inspired her to continue the fight. And it is. It's like as women,

we have to fight for our own care sometimes. That's what these women did. But their stories are very

relatable, I think. Yeah, I agree. The other thing, like to contrast the heart of the women's stories

with the science that was brought to the FDA because what shocked me was Cindy and Sprout

and the companies, they kept giving the FDA what the FDA was asking for. They're like, here's the

data. Here's how it works. Here's the safety that like every time the FDA said here's a bar,

they met it and they kept going back. And then the FDA kept still being like, well, I don't know,

though, really kind of portraying it like at the end of the day, it was up to their opinion.

Instead of up to facts and science, which is what the FDA should be using to approve drugs.

And that was like so jarring for me to be like, they did it. They proved the science. They brought

the data every time. And then the FDA was still like, yeah, but we're not sure if we just should.

And I was like, that's not your job to be judgmental on a product. It's to evaluate the science

and the data. That was jarring for me. Being the scientist coming from like, I thought there was

like protocols and rules and like facts that they were judging this stuff on. Anybody want to speak

to that? Not that showed the bias, right? Inherent, which is why the story is about the fight for

Adi, but it's also a women's health story writ large because the same things were with

vaginal estrogen, or we Kelly, you've talked about testosterone, but whatever it is,

if it's a drug for women, somehow we have a higher standard. It's more roadblocks and harder to

get access. And so that's why the story is something that has so much resonance for us now,

because we're still in various ways, still fighting this fight for access.

I mean, when Viagra came out, correct me if I'm wrong, but when Viagra came out,

some people had heart attacks having sex and died. Right? He's like, that happened.

And then, but the media didn't take it and be like, this is killing men. Nobody should have access

to it. Like this spin on people's choices for their bodies is so stark. And what your film does is

it kind of lifts the veil to that, right? It's like, listen, we're asking for a quality here.

We want to be judged at the same that Viagra and men's products get judged and have access.

And I think a lot of people still don't see the bias inherent in the system.

Absolutely. I mean, it's a it's a control issue at the end of the day. And the systems are built

through a patriarchal lens, right? So it's always going to look at women as untrustworthy,

it's always going to not dismiss our pain or not completely believe what we're saying is accurate

to what we're experiencing. It's going to be in all, you know, all in your head, you know,

diagnosis, that is so insidious into all parts of our lives. And you know, it's the old adage of

like, you have to work twice as hard to get half as far like that's literally what the FDA was like.

No, the robots were not the robots, but the goalposts are we're pushing them further down

because we're just don't want to approve this. And so we have to keep moving those goalposts.

And that's how insidious this types of misogyny exists in our culture that it leads into

systems of science or, you know, the people that are the arbiters of scientific, scientific

believers. Yeah, really, right? The decision makers ultimately. Yes. I think this is eye opening

too. You know, Kelly, we know it. You live it. Watch the film, but watch it as the cautionary tale

of what repeats itself in women's health. If we don't get involved, if we don't advocate, I believe

there's a 10 year truth horizon in women's health. I believe a new idea comes to the world,

and we've resisted for 10 years. Watch the operative words, the so-called, the controversial,

the risky, the things that exactly as you said did not appear in those headlines with Viagra.

And then 10 years later, we wake up and we go, oops, sorry. Right, it's just so obvious now.

All that was wrong. And we starved a decade of actually helping people because of our bias.

And now we're going to do what? We can't give them that decade back. And so that's at least my

hope for the film is like, this is pervasive in women's health. We are just an example of this

that I think is an eye opening one for everybody too. As you say, hold up the mirror and examine

if you two have your own bias. Conscious or unconscious of it. Yeah. I mean, when Viagra came out,

doctors weren't like, but is like, is your soft dick all that bad? Is it really a problem?

It's like laughable that we would question a man's interest in helping his sexual function,

right? Because it's so ridiculous that we'd be like, oh, you have issues with erections here.

Now we have options. But with women, we're like, is it really that bad? You can have sex without

really wanting it. It gets so cringy, so fast. We don't hold up that same sort of like judgment.

I'm like, who's the FDA or a doctor to say if your sex life is satisfying or not?

Truthfully, we don't take women's words for it. We doubt them when they dare to speak. But we're

never like, is your penis actually that soft? Like, the closest us are actually a problem, man.

Right. Like we, it's like laughable that we would question them. Yeah. I think the really,

one of the really interesting things to me as we were going to the process of making the film

was the idea really that we call it the little pink pill, but it's so different actually from

biograms in terms of the way it works, obviously. And the idea really that women want to want to have

sex is really at the root of this conversation about how this works. And I think that just the,

and this comes up in the FDA chapter of the film as well, is that the basic understanding

of desire and women and low libido and having to want to want to have sex is very different

than men's experiences, which it's about, you know, having a hard dick as it were. So is,

I think that is that to me was important to understand that that's what we're talking about when

we're talking about women and sex and sexuality and the want to want to have sex, which I think

is at the center of this. Yeah. Absolutely. So I got to watch it in the room at Ishwish. So

it was like kids at a candy store, the people who were in the film were in the room. Everybody

there was massively supportive. We all knew what the end of was going to be, right? So like it was

just like bubbly joy. It was so fun to watch it in that group. And my question is when you're

premiering it in different cities, what are the women saying who are coming in like not knowing

this story? Are they like blown away that this was that long and complicated? Like what is the like

uninitiated person? Think about this story. We've only shown it in at Doc NYC so far with an

audience. So we will find out most of this answers tomorrow and for the rest of our lives, I guess.

But I will say in New York, it ran the gamut of people who had some understanding, maybe some

bias before they came in in one direction or another. But you really do see for the average

viewer the evolution that they go through that maybe skeptical, maybe I'm being sold something

to the point where once it becomes very clear and I know the point happens in the movie, it's when

Sue Goldstein is like you either believe in a biological solution or you believe that you shouldn't

have a biological solution. And that's the light bulb moment that I have watched people's faces go,

oh, it's about choice. It's not my, it's not for my opinion to tell someone else what to do with

their body or how they should feel about their body at whatever stage they are in their life.

It's their choice to do that. And why are we holding that back from them? And that's the point,

I always find that the average person who maybe have certain thoughts about drug taking drugs

or not taking drugs, that's when it clicks into them that it's not about my, what I think about it

for this person. Yeah, I love that. Abby, what were you going to say? That in the times both

Doc and I see in a couple sort of impact-related screenings we've done, people audibly gasp.

Like, there's a moment where Josephine Tarente, who is the lawyer who is working on the so-called

sex appeal. Oh, God. We're atty. Love her. Love her. She's amazing. And part of the reason she's

amazing is she says, it's like just a fax boss. Like, she gives you just the facts, but she does a

great job of distilling some of the FDA responses. And there's a moment where she's describing

the FDA and their response to the side effects and that men both affect that they didn't want

women to take this drug and then drive their kids to school, but also that women were they

wanting more sex because they were falling asleep. And this whole notion of sex that was biased

and patriarch ago, whether they were men or sometimes even women actually, which is really

interesting too, in the film each time we have watched that in an audience, people gasp.

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And I think that the other great thing that Ash did is the director and filmmaker in this

is that you sort of go in an emotional roller coaster. I think by the end, the other thing that

people have told me is that they're angry and then in the end they're inspired. You know, it's like

how can this be? Shock, gasp. Oh my god, this is effing crazy. Why is this like this? I've been

deprived. Like Cindy said, 10 years of something I could have gotten. And then it's inspired. Like

these people stood up and did something about it. Cindy stood up, fought multiple times,

got her company back to make sure that women could get access. So I think people leave feeling like,

oh, what in my life can I do to fight the fight in some small way or large way to make a difference?

And it's fun to see that arc watching the film. I love that. What are the men saying? I think

they're equally, it's eye-opening for them, right? Like it's interesting to sit like this is

something. Gather your girlfriends, gather the men in your life. I think if you are a woman or

you've ever loved a woman in any way, your mom, your daughter, your niece, your friend, you should

watch this. Even if this isn't your lived experience, because I think it is important.

Everybody's reception is similar, no matter what their gender background is.

Yeah, I also think that it's relieving for men too. And most of the husbands that we spoke to,

who felt like there's so much shame our society and culture gives so much shame around sex and

about whose fault and whose was reform in a certain way. And a lot of, for the heterosexual

couples that they felt like, oh, she doesn't care for him anymore, she doesn't love me anymore,

she doesn't want me to touch her, that it was their fault. And of course the woman that

woman is internalizing is like, oh, this is my fault. I'm not feeling this way. I can't perform

how he wants me to. And just opening up that as a conversation that can be had in a very like

neutral and loving and safe environment rather than something that feels maybe more uncomfortable

and maybe a bit charged. But I showed the film to a physician friend of mine or I had her watch it

and she was watching it with her husband and he the whole time in the first beginning was like,

I mean, you gonna take this drug? And she was like, I'm turning it off, I'm watching it without you

because I can't watch this movie with you. And she really, really responded very well to it. And

the next day she told me, or maybe two days later, a patient came in and was asking her about her

sex life and how it was used to be there. And she was like, oh, there's this drug name atty.

You know, so it's interesting how it's like become bigger part of the conversation. But I think

it should be empowering for men that there's an open conversation that can be had, whether you're

talking about a drug or not, but to actually just be talking to your partner, whatever gender they

are about how they're feeling in this moment. And if they want something better, how can they

achieve that together as a couple, which I think is really a great step forward?

I love that. I think the lack of conversation in the realm of sexual health paralyzes people,

but they don't know how to start. And then they realize they don't, they didn't die talking about

it. And like, I have to think for this film, like, it's the same thing, right? People are like,

oh, and that once they start talking about it and they're angry and they're energized and they're

empowered. Like, there's this big, I guess, energy behind people. When people watch this film,

what are your hopes? What do you want them to do after they watch this film?

Own their pleasure in the bedroom, in your relationship, in your life, own your pleasure.

And if anybody ever dismisses it, underestimate it, overlooks it, fight back. This is, we've

got this one life. How are you going to live it? And I think this is just a love story to people,

you know, like you, Kelly, in the in the sexual health community, who have fought back,

who have made this be the mainstream conversation, it deserves to be because sexual health is a

basic human right. And it is part of your overall mental and physical health as well. So why

is it still in the shadows? I hope this brings it out from there. And I really hope that it

validates how you're feeling, whatever that is to know that you should be able to have these

conversations with your doctor or with your partner. You can demand more for your own self.

It's about, you know, it's, I hope it brings self-knowledge, self-respect, self-power. And, you know,

we live in a very, very like complex and hard times right now. If we can remember that pleasure is

super important way to continue existing and thriving in this world, then we're going to be in a

better place. So I hope it's, I hope it's uplifting at the end. And it will also give people the

tools of what they can go into their doctor's office and have these conversations if they want to

have them with their doctor. Yeah. And just to add to that, I mean, we always talked about the fact

that the ability to let's talk about sex, which is what we're doing right now. And it's so important.

And I think one of the other things that we've talked about is the fact that if you've got the

ability and you feel empowered to ask hard questions like this, get educated like this,

it has an impact in your, in the larger way that you are as a woman. You can, you can have a hard

conversation with your partner. You can have a hard conversation with your doctor. Hopefully,

you can have a conversation with your employer. Whatever it is that you need and want, it's the,

you know, it's the ability to watch in this film how so many people stood up and fought for

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Abby, do you want to take us home? What are your final thoughts? Sure, I'd say I'm loving what

everyone's saying and it's making me feel excited to watch this film again. As women being our own

champions too, I realized as I was hearing everyone talk, I mean, I think Cindy, that's what you did.

The patients did that. They were vulnerable. They said no to shame and yes to being the champions of

their own health and their own story. And I think this film is kind of a love letter to that too.

How can we claim back our own story narratives and be our own champions for whatever it is that we

want to achieve and saying yes to pleasure and no to the stigma is part of that. I love it.

Everybody, thank you so much for your time for coming on this podcast to help raise awareness for

this amazing topic, the amazing people that fought for these women. And until next time, thank you

for all of your work. Thank you. Watch on Paramount Plus. Watch on Paramount Plus. Yeah.

If you follow this episode, funny, helpful, insightful, please take a moment to follow

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For courses, books, and my monthly membership and the Casperson Clinic information,

visit kellycaspersonmd.com. This podcast and all content from Dr. Kelly Casperson

is intended for educational and informational purposes only. And this is not a substitute for

individual medical, coaching or psychological advice, diagnosis or treatment. Always seek the

guidance of your qualified health care professional with any questions you may have regarding your

health. Never disregard or delay medical advice because of something you've heard on this or other

podcasts. Thanks for being here and remember, You Are Not Broken.