AMA #16_ Sleep, Vertigo, TBI, OCD, Tips for Travelers, Gut-Brain Axis & More

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Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast.

We'll be discussing science and science-based tools

for everyday life.

Hello everybody and welcome.

I wanna thank all of you.

Premium Huberman Lab Podcast subscribers for joining.

This is an exciting one,

even though the backdrop here looks very much

like the studio back in the United States.

I am doing this AMA Live from Sydney, Australia

where I and the Huberman Lab Podcast team have been

for well over a week.

We were in Melbourne and we just did two live shows here

in Sydney and we're headed off to Brisbane tomorrow

and it's been absolutely delightful.

That's so much fun.

Talking science, learning from people.

That's a wonderful place.

I wanna get right into your questions

and do my best to answer as many of them as possible,

as thoroughly, clearly and succinctly as possible

over the next hour.

So I'm gonna dive into those in just a moment.

Just one last important thing before I do that,

which is that I wanna thank everyone

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and let you know that we based on your contributions

to the premium channel.

Have already, as you know, supported four laboratories

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and elsewhere for important projects on humans

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But that this year, 2024, we were fortunate enough

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who have generously agreed to match our contributions

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Those are going to add out to a number

of different universities and researchers working

again on human studies, so no animal studies,

human studies on important projects.

Everything from novel treatments for mental health issues,

headache and migraine, some interesting stuff

on immunology and cancer, mindsets and immune system function

and much, much more also nutrition, physiology,

exercise, physiology, et cetera.

So your contributions to the premium channel

really do make a difference.

I can say this because I'm familiar with the challenges

of raising funding for doing truly breakthrough work

and getting things quickly out to the general public.

So thank you, thank you, thank you.

And now without further ado, let's get to your questions.

The first question was, is how are you managing

to achieve your key health pillars while in Australia?

And any other place you've enjoyed doing so,

all while working so hard?

Well, thanks for the question.

I'll answer this question in the context

of what I think we all can and should and really will do

because if you're a premium channel subscriber,

certain that you're taking your health seriously.

So first off, I think there's a bit of a misconception

about the protocols on the Hibberman lab podcast

being that we are all, including myself,

super, super regimented about them to the point

where we don't enjoy other things in life.

And that's simply not true.

So I view the protocols of the Hibberman lab podcast

as science-based, actionable, low cost,

zero cost, minimal cost in almost all situations.

There are a few exceptions to that.

But it really designed to mesh with the rest of life

and enhance mental health and physical health,

which of course means remaining social,

staying on typical sleep schedules, et cetera.

So the big ones for me when arriving here

were of course to get morning sunlight

as often as possible.

It saw a beautiful sunrise this morning over Sydney,

but even on the overcast days, we've had a few rainy

overcast days to really make it a point to get outside

and to get that morning sunlight.

Also, our crew did travel in with a red light,

not a red light panel.

Although I do have a couple red light panels,

those little portable ones that I use from time to time,

the red lights I'm referring to in reference

to answering this question are the red lights,

which are just red light bulb that we actually travel

with a little red light bulb unit.

It's just like a small screw and unit.

You plug it in here with an adapter, of course.

And then in the evening, we've switched off the lights

and the place where we're staying.

And it just brings the overall levels of cortisol down low,

very quickly.

And it makes it very easy to get to sleep each night.

It makes a big, big difference.

And this is a very low cost tool.

You could essentially purchase any red light,

even red party lights and put those up

and then switch off the regular overhead lights.

It makes a big difference.

That's probably even cost saving.

We've also stayed fairly regimented about exercise.

So this morning took a great jog down to the ocean,

jumped in the ocean.

If you don't have access to an ocean on vacation,

just getting outside and getting some movement

early in the day can help shift your rhythm.

Really the quad-fecta of shifting your circadian rhythm

in a new place or becoming an early riser.

If you want to do that is morning sunlight movement,

social engagement, and in my case, caffeine.

Although some people would opt for eating breakfast,

I'd just happen to prefer to eat a little bit later in the day.

So when you combine those things,

you are really amplifying that morning.

Cortisol increase that I've talked about on the podcast.

Morning catacolamine release,

so dopamine up and effort and nor up and effort.

And those act in synergy to create more early day and day

time mood focus and alertness and enhance the transition

to nighttime sleep.

But of course, that dimming of the lights

and maybe even red light in the evening

really, really can help.

And so those are the biggies.

And then of course, if you want to shift your circadian rhythm

really quickly to be on a local schedule,

it helps to hop on the local meal schedule.

But for me, that always means skipping breakfast.

I'm not a big breakfast eater.

I like lunch and afternoon snack sometimes and dinner.

So when you do all of those things,

it makes it very easy to stay with the health pillars.

And of course, stress control is important.

We're doing lives.

There's a lot of work to do.

So there's a daily for me non-sleep deep rest

or eugenedra protocol.

By the way, you may be familiar with non-sleep deep rest

in eugenedra terrific zero cost practice

for reducing stress, replacing or replenishing dopamine

and mental and physical vigor.

I've talked about this and the studies

that support this on the podcast.

There is a Huberman NSDR script on YouTube.

That's against zero cost.

But while down here, we recorded a 10 minute, 20 minute

and 30 minute NSDR script with a view of a beautiful

Sydney Sunrise.

Those should be posted to our Huberman Lab Clips channel

in the not too distant future,

probably in the next couple of weeks.

And then you can have different duration NSDR scripts

that you can use.

Again, complete these zero cost anytime you like.

We've recorded also some additional meditations

and we're considering putting out a Spotify album,

if you will, of NSDR and meditations

that are science based of different durations.

So if you like that idea, maybe just give a shout

into the internet and hopefully we'll hear it

or put a comment on the latest episode of the Huberman Lab

podcast on YouTube.

And if that sounds like a good idea to you,

we will do more of that.

These are again, zero cost, zero to access tools

for enhancing mental health and physical health.

So combining all of those is really what we've done.

Next question was, is I have followed your sleep advice

and I have seen a huge improvement.

Great, happy to hear that.

Wonderful.

But I still wake up at night and only get five or six hours.

Is that enough?

Can you please give more advice if possible?

Well, first of all, thanks for tuning into the sleep advice

so the question of whether or not five or six hours

is enough really depends on person context

and by context, I mean, it can even change

across the course of the year by life circumstances.

The criteria for insomnia are very clear.

Insomnia is excessive daytime sleepiness

due to lack of sleep at night.

Excessive daytime sleepiness due to lack of sleep at night.

So if you're not falling asleep during the day

and you feel reasonably good throughout the day,

maybe only need a brief 10 minute to 30 minute nap

in the afternoon, some people nap,

some people don't like to nap, doesn't matter.

But if you feel pretty good throughout the day

and you have enough mental and physical energy

and focus to complete the activities you need to complete,

then I wouldn't worry so much about five to six hours

and I wouldn't obsess over these scary things

that we hear if we're not getting seven day hours

that we get to mention, et cetera,

because that's not necessarily the case.

Everyone has different sleep needs, the other thing

and this is perhaps the most important thing

for everybody listening to this really to think about

is Q, Q, R, T, which is quality, quantity, timing, excuse me,

quality, quantity, regularity and timing, Q, Q, R, T,

Q, Q, R, T, which is an acronym coined by

the great Matt Walker author of the book, Why We Sleep,

he has his own terrific podcast in his own right,

there's a series on the human lab podcast coming out.

Soon, Q, Q, R, T is what you really need to think about

when you think about your sleep.

So you wanna think about the quantity,

how much are you getting?

Well, you, Rima, who asked this question,

are getting five to six hours a night.

Okay, what about the quality of that sleep?

Is it consistently five to six hours with no breaks

or is there a break in the middle,

one trip to the restroom in the middle of the night

is considered normal and healthy for most people.

If you're making multiple trips to the restroom

in the middle of the night,

you're waking up multiple times throughout the night

on a regular basis, that's something to try and overcome.

So the quality piece is important.

Also, whether or not you remember your dreams

or you don't, you want to make sure

that you're getting ample amounts of slow wave sleep

which dominates the first half of your sleep night

and rapid eye movement sleep which dominates

the second half of your sleep night

because they have different roles in recovery of brain

and body, namely slow wave, aka deep sleep

is responsible for growth hormone release,

rapid eye movement sleep responsible for the unpacking

or the uncoupling of emotions to prior day

and previous day experiences.

And in that way, actually, is a kind of scrubbing out

or a therapy for your emotional state.

So are you feeling emotionally rested

when you wake up as a good indication of whether or not

you're getting enough rapid eye movement sleep?

Some people like sleep trackers

using their aid sleeper, their loop or their aura ring

or something like that.

I'm a fan of sleep trackers, but I think that

relying too heavily on sleep scores can be risky

and there are data from Ali Krum's lab at Stanford

showing that if people receive a poor sleep score,

even though they sleep well, their performance will drop.

If people get a good sleep score, even though their sleep

was lousy, their performance is maintained or even enhanced.

So you don't want to take any one sleep score

and overinterpret it.

You want to look at the average

and compare that to your subjective experience of sleep.

Maybe I would say go about halfway through your day

if you can bear to do it before looking at your sleep score

and see how you feel.

Then look at your sleep score as opposed to the other way around.

That might be a good way to adjust for that belief effect,

just mention.

But if you're getting enough quantity,

let's say you get five to six hours

and quality you're sleeping through that bout,

maybe with one epoch of waking up.

And then the regularity of your sleep

is that you're going to sleep more or less

at the same time each night plus or minus an hour

on let's say five to six days per week

because sometimes we like to stay up on a weekend night

and have some fun or something like that.

And then the timing where that sleep is falling

near 24 hour schedule is really key.

And here's what we're learning as a field

that for many people who are early to bed, early to rise types,

if they go to bed around nine PM, nine 30

and they only get six hours of sleep, they feel great.

Whereas if they get the equivalent amount of sleep

but go to bed at 11 PM or midnight, they feel lousy.

Similarly, if you're a night owl, you're somebody

that really prefers to go to bed around one or two AM

and wake up around, let's say 10 AM,

if you take that equivalent amount of sleep

and you go to bed earlier, you're going to feel not so good.

So getting the timing of your sleep in the 24 hour cycle

correct and fairly consistent,

that's the R part of QQRT, correct is going to be beneficial.

So I wouldn't worry so much about five to six hours only.

Here's what I would do, Rima.

I would take that five to six hours

and before getting out of bed each morning,

I would do a 10 to 30 minute NSTR non-sleep deep rest protocol

which will allow you to feel deeply rested

and frankly to recover whatever bits of sleep

that you perhaps missed during the night.

I found that to be a tremendously beneficial practice.

Waking up, if I don't feel thoroughly rested

doing a 10 to 30 minute NSTR,

then getting out of bed and continuing the day.

And if you don't have time to do that,

do that 10 minute, maybe 20 minute NSTR later in the day

at any point.

And I think you'll see terrific results,

not just because you're recovering some sleep

that you lost perhaps during the night,

or maybe you just need five to six hours,

but also because you'll get better at falling

and staying deeply asleep through the practice of NSTR

in the morning or at some point throughout the day.

I wouldn't recommend anything else elaborate

unless you're feeling really exhausted during the day

in which case then I would move

to some of the more advanced sleep tools.

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I've had vertigo, I should announce this is a question.

I'm not just telling you about my vertigo.

I've had vertigo on and off

and wonder what causes it.

Is it hormones, adrenals, autolists moving around?

Ah, this person knows about the cochlea.

Hydration, virus, exposure, Zinnana,

I think is how you pronounce your name.

Forgive me if that's not the correct pronunciation Zinnana.

So vertigo is very interesting.

Unfortunately, it's uncomfortable,

but we can learn a thing or two right now

that should be able to help you.

It's Zinnana and others, even if they haven't had vertigo.

So vertigo, this perception of falling or dizziness,

needs to be distinguished from lightheadedness.

So if you're ever feeling dizzy,

it's worth stopping and sitting,

or if you can't sit standing and closing your eyes.

And asking yourself a question,

do I feel like I'm ready to fall straight down

or do I feel like I'm going to spin and fall down?

Because in answering that question,

you can determine whether or not you are lightheaded,

that would be the straight falling down,

or you have vertigo, which is your dizzy,

which is that you're gonna spin and fall down.

Now do this in a safe place, please.

You can do this while bracing yourself against a wall

or that's why I said ideally seated.

So you don't actually fall.

But in most cases, if you're feeling that spin,

if you're feeling truly dizzy,

you're feeling vertigo and move my head

or only on purpose,

then chances are you've got some issue

in either your visual system or your inner ear.

Okay, so since this is being recorded on video,

I can display what I'm about to say.

So your visual system and your inner ear system

for balance have some really important features.

I'm gonna make this a very quick tutorial.

Your head, as you move through space,

is experiencing visual images going by all the time.

Your retinas, your eyes,

are essentially exposed to a lot of what's called visual slip.

Imagine you're walking and you're trying to take a picture

on your iPhone or if you have an Android phone

on your Android phone and you're moving,

it's gonna be blurry, right?

Well, there's a stabilization process

in your body and brain.

It's a magnificent one that Frank is built

into all jawed animals, whereby your head,

because it can move forward, so think nodding, right?

So this is pitch for you pilots, right?

Y'all moving from side to side,

this would be the no, this would be the no, no.

So pitch, y'all, and roll,

which would be like the puppy, look, right?

Pitch, y'all, and roll, pitch, y'all, real.

Those are the three major angles of visual slip.

And in an absolutely magnificent set of things,

your inner ear has three hula hoop-like shaped structures,

one that's arranged vertically, so up on its end,

one that's at an angle of about 45 degrees to that,

and another that sits like a hula hoop flat on the ground.

And inside of each of those little hula hoop-like tubes,

there are little stones called autolists,

okay, you heard that word earlier,

that roll around on the bottom,

just like marbles at the bottom of a hula hoop,

such that when you pitch, nod,

the marbles in the vertical hula hoop slide back and forth,

when you say no, the marbles in that hula hoop-lying,

essentially parallel to the floor, move around,

and then the one at 45 degrees,

when you roll your head from side to side, those move.

And each of those sends neural signals

that converge on the neural signals coming from the eye,

and get this, when you move through space,

there is a precise offset of whatever visual slip

you happen to be experiencing by walking,

the images are moving, you're looking up,

you're looking at buildings, you're looking around,

you're talking to somebody, they're moving their head,

and your eye is making little tiny movements,

little microsecodes on the millisecond time scale,

that act as a perfect image stabilizer.

So what this means, this is, by the way,

called the vestibular ocular reflex,

the vestibular system, ocular reflex,

and it's me, through a structure called the cerebellum,

in the back of the brain.

This is why when you're on a boat,

when the horizon is tipping back and forth,

I have to be careful with this,

because I have such a prominent C-signus

based on a prior experience that if I think about this too much,

I might get nauseous.

When that horizon is moving around,

your system becomes uncalibrated,

because you can't really keep the system jolting about

in a regular way, to be really careful here,

and dizzy, as I said, dizzy, not lightheaded.

And you will end up disrupting that slip process,

and you'll essentially overcompensate,

which is why whenever you feel sick on a boat,

they say, look at the horizon,

fixate to something at a distance.

Okay, so if you have vertigo,

almost certainly there's something going on

in your inner ear, yes, it can be caused by viruses,

yes, it can be caused by hormones.

These things tend to be transient,

but the most important thing is going to be

to anchor the visual part of the vestibular ocular reflex.

So what you're going to want to do,

is you're going to want to fixate on a point,

maybe three or four feet away,

and then you're going to actually want to move closer

to that point, or if you don't have access to it,

you would want to look at your hand,

your finger out in front of you,

and then slowly move it in toward your nose.

At some point, you'll feel like you're going to go cross-eyed,

and you can stop at that point,

then move out again,

then in again, what are you doing when you're doing this?

What you're doing is you're overriding the error signals,

the incorrect error signals,

that exist in your kind of default setting

at that when you have vertigo,

and you're forcing the visual component to dominate,

and then your inner ear mechanisms will adjust to that.

So this is a very powerful tool,

if you ever feel nauseous or seasick,

it's a very powerful tool.

If you're ever in like me,

you sit in the back of an uber,

and in the ubers too small, you get out,

and you're like walk into a building,

where there are no windows,

you're like, I don't really feel good,

get outside and look at a fixation point,

some distance away.

This actually happened the other day,

we went to the gym,

we went inside this gym,

we'd been in a van,

and then went inside,

and weren't feeling well.

So we decided to get out and just take a walk

and fixate to the longest distance possible.

The fresh air probably helped as well,

but when doing that,

you are anchoring the visual part

of the vestibular ocular reflex.

Now, that's far and away better

than trying to avoid moving your head

to not get those little stones moving around

in the semicircular canals.

Lots to say about this.

I could go on and on,

but hopefully you learn some biology

and you learn to not be nauseous

if ever you feel dizzy or nauseous

based on movement, motion sick.

And we can talk about why you get motion sick,

but it's through the vagus nerve, et cetera, et cetera.

But this is a very useful tool,

and if you're ever just not feeling well,

unless you have a fever or something like that,

I recommend getting outside

and looking at the furthest fixation point

with your vision that you possibly can,

and then walking toward it as far as you can safely.

If not, by actually just doing a few of these exercises

of looking at your finger up close,

that's going to be very good

for anchoring the vestibular ocular reflex,

and not every time,

but many times people would report feeling better,

especially if you've moved from one closed environment

to another closed environment,

to another closed environment, and so on.

Okay, next question is,

what can be done to improve brain function

for people that have been negatively impacted by things

such as poor sleep, poor diet, and TBI, early in life?

James, yeah, this is a great question,

and I get this a lot.

I think that it reminds me that a lot of the conversation

that we have on the podcast is about

the good things that happen when you do things right,

and the bad things that happen when you do things wrong.

And while I think that's an important conversation,

what I've frankly failed to do enough,

and that's why I'm grateful for this question,

because it gives me the opportunity

to talk more about the fact that your system

is very robust.

There is neuroplasticity,

and also, as my graduate advisor used to say,

time machine's broken, which is not to say,

you're at a luck,

but I wouldn't spend any extra energy thinking about

how many seed, not seed,

excuse me, how many have to be careful.

The seed oil debate is still a debate, it's unclear.

How many trans fats you were exposed to in childhood?

We know trans fats are bad.

Everyone agrees they're bad.

Governments agree they're bad.

This is perhaps one of the few things

everybody agrees on in the nutrition space.

Trans fats are bad.

When I was growing up,

trans fats were abundant in foods.

There were probably fewer of certain things

that we have more of now that are bad,

but we ate a lot of trans fats.

We had margarine in our fridge.

There were other things that were probably

weren't good for us that we consumed.

In every once in a while,

I'll think, gosh,

if I had only been eating grass-fed meats

and fruits and vegetables and healthy grains as I do now,

back then, imagine how much healthier I'd be,

but I really don't spend too much time on it

and I don't think you should either.

I think the most important thing to remember

is that biological systems,

unless they're really damaged,

you're talking about a major injury,

and even then, they're very robust.

You can overcome years, decades of poor use

or misuse of those systems.

That said, if you have the opportunity

to take care of them now,

I highly suggest you do.

So, for instance, if you haven't slept well for years,

now's the time to get it right.

I wouldn't worry about the past, truly.

You can always rescue some of your health

and health span and lifespan.

Poor diet, same thing.

Just, it's just do it kind of thing.

Just hop on, hop on the train of getting things right,

80 to 90% of the time.

TBI, traumatic brain injury.

Well, the episode of the human lab podcast

that's out right now with Dr. Mark Despazito,

he's an MD and neurologist,

originally trained at University of Pennsylvania,

now at University of California Berkeley,

we talk about TBI, you know,

there are a lot different forms of TBI,

different origins, you know,

everything from bomb blasts to car accident,

to construction work to just, you know,

slip down the stairs at a party.

I know someone that slipped on some wet floor at a party

and, you know, has a brain injury.

What do we know?

Well, you get back to the basics.

Sleep is going to be important,

but there are some things like

transcranial magnetic stimulation,

certainly things that reduce brain inflammation,

like lymphatic outflow.

So, lymphatic outflow is this washing of the brain at night

that removes debris.

Very, very important in the weeks and months

after traumatic brain injury to get adequate sleep

for that reason,

but then there are things that also seem to perhaps

improve outcomes from traumatic brain injury,

such as hyperbaric chamber,

so hyperoxygenation treatments,

if you have access to those,

even things like elevating the feet slightly

when you sleep by about five to 15 degrees

is known to increase lymphatic flow during sleep,

which can, we believe,

by way of increased clearance of a bunch of,

basically, debris,

reactive oxygen species within the cells,

but also debris outside the cells in the extracellular space.

So, between neurons,

there isn't just empty space,

there's all this heavily glycosylated stuff,

which basically just means this kind of,

like, spongy carbohydrate stuff that fills in the spaces.

The clearance of some of the metabolites

and some of the debris that's accumulated there

by just sleeping with feet slightly elevated,

definitely not falling asleep in a chair upright,

that's the worst thing for a glimphatic flow,

things like that.

Some people go kind of bonkers on all things anti-inflammation,

they start taking tons of curcumin

and they kind of get obsessed with inflammation

as the enemy.

I wouldn't do that.

In fact, there's some negative effects of things

like curcumin turmeric.

If you take in high doses, like,

limiting the amount of the hydrochistosterone production,

which is not good, you don't want that.

Male or female, you don't want to take too much turmeric

or curcumin, they're really issues with that.

To say nothing of the studies they've showed

in lead contamination and a lot of turmeric,

so you want to check the sourcing very carefully

if you do consume any turmeric.

A little bit is probably fine.

Cooking with it is fine,

but we're here, we're talking about supplementation,

and just really not trying to turn inflammation

into this terrible thing to the point

where you're starting to do other things

that are potentially damaging.

There's some really interesting evidence

that five grams, maybe 10 grams,

depending on your body weight,

of creatine monohydrate per day can enhance

creatine phosphatementabolism in the forebrain

and enhance brain function under conditions

of high altitude or TBI.

I take five to 10 grams of creatine,

just creatine monohydrate powder.

Frankly, any creatine monohydrate powder should be sufficient.

There are other forms of creatine,

they are not any better.

Creatine monohydrate is the least expensive,

fortunately, that mixed in water.

You take it with or without food.

Some people ask, does creatine make your hair fall out?

No, it does not.

Think your hair fall out,

but some people do experience an increase in DHT

with creatine monohydrate,

and there can be a DHT hair loss link.

So if you think you're losing your hair

from taking creatine, then stop and see,

do the control experiment, it should grow back,

but five to 10 grams of creatine monohydrate,

something to explore, hyperbaric chamber,

something to explore, excellent sleep.

Definitely do that.

And I just wouldn't obsess over past.

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Warning, the following Zippercruder radio spot

you are about to hear is going to be filled with F words.

When you're hiring, we at Zippercruder

know you can feel frustrated for Lauren even.

Like your efforts are futile,

and you can spend a fortune trying to find fabulous people

only to get flooded with candidates who are just fine.

Fuck.

Fortunately, Zippercruder figured out how to fix all that.

And right now, you can try Zippercruder for free

at zippercruder.com slash zip.

With Zippercruder, you can forget your frustrations

because we find the right people for your roles fast,

which is our absolute favorite effort.

In fact, four out of five employers

who post on Zippercruder get a quality candidate

within the first day.

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So whether you need to hire four, 40, or 400 people,

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Itals are wrongs to the extent that it impacts your ability

to try and correct those in the present.

I would say that about most everything.

But then again, I understand that as humans,

because we can remember the past, the present,

and the future that sometimes it's difficult to let go

of the mistakes of past that we made.

But that's just simply being human.

And I don't have a solution to that.

Are we any closer to finding the cause of OCD?

Well, I think we know what causes OCD.

I think it's pretty clear that OCD is some form of miswiring

in the basal ganglia, the structures of the brain

that are involved in go action and no go

withholding action type behaviors.

And some malwiring of those structures

to the dopamine reward system.

Because here's what's interesting about OCD.

OCD involves obsessions.

Obviously, that's the O in OCD.

Compulsions, the actions, that's the C in OCD.

But in a kind of weird twist of the neurology, OCD

is a situation where the compulsion does not remove the obsession

rather it exacerbates it.

But the compulsion does not remove the obsession

it exacerbates it.

So unlike an itch that you scratch with OCD,

the scratching of the itch makes it worse, which

is actually what we experience when we have a mosquito bite,

which by the way, I have absolutely

low with mosquito bites.

It's one of my least favorite things in life.

I have about 3,600 and counting pet peeves.

That's definitely high on the list of those.

The obsessive compulsive disorder is one

that really needs to be treated frankly

neurologically.

It's one for which there are behavioral interventions,

but it's clear that adjusting the pharmacology

of the neural circuits involved in OCD really can help.

Again, there are behavioral treatments,

but for severe cases of OCD, it's just very, very clear

that interventions, which include SSRIs, which have been demonized.

A lot of people say, oh, select a serotonin reuptake inhibitors

are terrible, blah, blah, blah.

The serotonin hypothesis of depression is in true.

Well, listen, the reality is this, that all treatments

for depression that are effective, which include SSRIs,

in some cases, cognitive behavioral treatments,

all of these sorts of things, which are shown efficacy,

are all about what?

They're not about serotonin.

They're about neuroplasticity.

That's why some anti-depressant center

on dopamine and norepinephrine, other center on serotonin.

They're about neuroplasticity.

They're about changing neural networks.

They're not about a neurochemical per se,

but the neuromodulators, such as serotonin,

allow an access point.

They are a wedge into the neuroplasticity process.

Now, with OCD, in order to overcome these malwireings,

it's very important to get plasticity.

How do you get plasticity?

Well, in my belief, you work with an excellent psychiatrist

who can prescribe the appropriate dose of drug

to release the appropriate amount of neuromodulator.

Then, and this is really key,

you have opened up the window for plasticity,

but then it's really important that the proper behaviors

are engaged in.

And when I did an episode on OCD,

I talked about what some of these are.

For instance, the person is exposed to the stimulus

that causes the obsession,

or maybe the obsession arises spontaneously.

They feel the impulse to complete the compulsion,

the behavior, and they resist with the support of a therapist.

But they're doing this in the context of having elevated levels

of serotonin, or some other neuromodulator

that then allows fewer trials of resistance,

fewer times of needing to withhold the behavior

that this person so badly wants to perform,

because it's coming from within as this compulsion,

literally, then they are able to achieve

plasticity more quickly,

perhaps also transcranial magnetic stimulation.

So a conjunction of the correct behavior,

the withholding behavior,

maybe a replacement behavior,

that's often used,

use a replacement behavior

with the appropriate neurochemical milieu

is the solution to OCD.

Okay, next question is,

if I'm just going to New York City from San Francisco,

how do I control shifting my circadian rhythm

by only three hours?

So if you're going to New York City from San Francisco,

the best way, frankly,

would be to get up an hour earlier two days before

you head off to New York,

and then another day you might try and shift by two hours

before you go and then head to New York

and do the last shift on the last day.

Most people won't do that.

It just takes a little bit of work,

but they just don't have the time ability

or your discipline to do that,

but it is perhaps the best way.

I would say the best thing to do is to know

your temperature minimum,

and I'll try and keep this pretty simple.

If you typically wake up at 8am, let's say,

just by way of example,

that means that your minimum body temperature is at 6am,

which means that if you want to get up earlier

in the days where you traveled to New York,

well, in the couple of days before you leave,

anytime between 6am and 10am,

get some bright light in your eyes,

even if you go back to sleep.

So for instance, get up at 6am,

say an alarm clock,

I know you normally like to get up at 8am,

get up at 6am, get some bright light in your eyes

from artificial sources or from sunlight,

maybe five, 10 minutes,

then go back to sleep until 8am.

You do that again the next night,

and then you head off to New York,

you'll find the shift to be much easier.

Now, here's what you don't wanna do.

You want to make sure that you do not

view bright light before 6am.

So in the middle of the night, if you get up,

you need to use the restroom,

try and use dim lights as dim as a safely possible, et cetera.

And what are you doing when you're doing this?

Yeah, I could get into a long description of the science

behind this, and I'll probably do a podcast

all about this at some point,

but really what you're doing,

if you get up at 6am and getting some bright light exposure

is, you think about it,

you're kinda looking at a New York sunrise of sorts, okay?

If it's not a sunrise,

you're getting some bright light,

the mimics sunrise, at least to some extent.

Nothing's quite like sunrise, but to some extent.

So in that sense, even if you go back to sleep,

what you're doing is you're sending the light signal,

the zeitgabre, the time signal,

to your circadian clock of your hypothalamus

that it should shift that you need to get up earlier,

and indeed that will happen over the course of about two,

three days.

The other thing you can do,

and I know this is just kind of rare these days

to get an answer like this,

the other thing you can do is just fly to New York

and force yourself to get up and just drink caffeine

and get out and exercise and use the social rhythm

of the activity of the city in order to get up earlier,

but you will feel lousy late morning.

And so you would only want to do that

if you could access a brief nap of anywhere

from 30 to 90 minutes late morning,

and then you'll feel fine.

But my suggestion would be to

something back there like some animal

or something like that answer so much,

so like that, yeah, it would be to just

try and get a little bit of light exposure

a couple hours before your normal wake up time,

then go back to sleep in the two days before

you head off to New York City.

And of course, everything here was set in the context

of the New York City flight from San Francisco

to New York City, but the principle, the logic holds.

And if you have any questions about this temperature minimum

and wake up time and you want to get your circadian

clock right for travel,

check out the episode that we did on jet lag and shift work,

and I'm realizing now as I say this,

and my team's here and they're listening,

that I will do a video on the Hebrew and Lab Clips channel

where I explain temperature minimum

and how to plug in your wake normal wake up time

in order to essentially arrive at whatever time shift you want.

We should probably put that out as a newsletter too,

which is a little chart where it says,

I currently wake up at 8 a.m.

And then which means my, and then it'll say,

subtract you hours, my temperature minimum is 6 a.m.

And I want to travel to whatever it is.

Sydney, Australia on this date from this city.

And then we know the time change

and then I can tell you exactly what to do for a couple days.

I've done this for various military groups.

I've done this for people and close friends

and who travel a lot and it works fabulously well.

I can't eliminate jet lag for you.

Don't I wish I could just eliminate jet lag.

I can't do that.

But I definitely can have the time that it takes for you

to shift maybe more.

Hi, hi.

I love the Sydney show.

Thank you.

Coming out, thanks for coming to Australia.

Thanks for having us.

I take fish oil, but I'm not sure I'm getting the dose right.

What are your thoughts on fish oil and dose?

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I have lots of thoughts on fish oil.

I think it's a terrific tool.

I think every time I see a study

or a news article saying fish oil not shown to,

I just go, oh gosh, all right.

Well, listen, whoever's reading wrote that article.

You know, I take no pleasure in your declining

health spanner lifespan, but whatsoever.

But the rest of us are going to be taken fish oil.

And here's why there's just so much evidence

that getting enough omega-3 fatty acids

is great for brain health, body health.

And I think that the issue around fish oil

is typically around contaminants.

So you want to make sure they doesn't have loads of mercury.

So things like sardines, cod liver oil, et cetera.

You can get those from natural sources,

except there's one problem.

I hate sardines.

And I don't want to slurp down a bunch of cod fat.

I'm just not interested in that.

So if you eat a lot of fatty ocean fish

and it's really clean fish, great.

I don't.

Most people don't.

So I believe in taking a high quality fish oil.

There are a lot of different sources of these.

In fact, in the episode that we do with Dr. Ronda Patrick,

there's a link in the show note captions, I believe,

that takes you to a chart of the different fish oil

sources and their relative levels of contaminants, et cetera.

But most of the reputable brands out there

are not going to have any contaminants

because they've been cleaned out.

It's been checked for.

So I take the fish oil from AG1 or from Momentus.

That's just me.

There are a lot of other great sources out there.

But I will say this, that's when I'm traveling

and I take capsules.

Typically, I like to take it in liquid form.

And I will take in liquid form.

I have no financial relationship to the liquid non-capsule

forms of fish oil.

And I get the one that has a lemon flavor

to overcome the absolutely disgusting flavor

of cod liver oil.

I guess, I don't know, presumably cod

like today still cod liver oil.

But I don't.

So that's what I do.

I'll take a tablespoon of that once a day.

And a protein shake, it tastes like lemon.

It doesn't take it's like cod and goodness.

And when I travel, I take the capsules from AG1 or Momentus.

Are there excellent ones from other sources?

Lots of great sources out there.

Now, what are we trying to do when we take fish oil?

Yes, it can reduce inflammation.

Yes, it can do a number of different things.

But that's all by way of omega-3 fatty acid intake, right?

Most people get far too much omega-6, right?

This is why there's a seed oil debate.

We're not gonna have that debate now.

We could put us all to sleep, frankly.

The key thing is to get enough omega-3s

and they're hard to get unless you're eating krill,

so unless you're large, you know, boiling whale.

You're probably not eating that much krill.

If you're getting fatty fish, great.

But when you take an omega-3 fatty acid

in the form of fish oil, or you start eating through that matter,

what you're getting essentially is the substrate

for a lot of other important building blocks,

not the least of which is the lipid bilayer

that surrounds the neurons of your brain.

And so basically, the omega-3 fatty acids

provide the substrate for some key building blocks

of nerve cells and other cells in the brain and body.

And, and this is perhaps the most important reason

I can think of when you get out past one gram

of the EPA form of omega-3, okay?

One gram of EPA form of omega-3 per day.

It's clear there's a either mild to moderate

antidepressant effect so much so that one can,

in some cases, talk to your psychiatrist or psychologist,

partially offset the dosage of any antidepressant.

I am not telling you to go off antidepressant

and go on to fish oil.

That is not what I'm saying.

I'm just saying that there's some impressive clinical trials

showing that fish oil.

If taken at dosages of one to three grams of EPA per day

can have a mild to moderate antidepressant effect

and I don't know anyone that wouldn't want to have better mood.

So I take one and a half grams of EPA,

which is not to say one and a half grams of fish oil.

You need to look at the package and see how much fish oil

but then look at how much EPA.

And typically, it's less than one gram per serving

so you may have to take two servings.

So we'll say, well, is it safe to take two servings?

I don't see any reason why not.

And then, of course, there are the high potency fish oils

for which there is certainly one gram or more of EPA.

Keep in mind that all this discussion about fish oil

might sound kind of health food hippie store

for dimming hippies, health food store kind of stuff.

But the reality is that EPA, high concentration EPA

is actually a prescription drug in the United States

and elsewhere prescribed often for enhancing mental health

and enhancing cardiovascular health and on and on.

So we're not out on a limb or out on a fin

as it were when we're having this discussion,

we're actually just talking about something

for which there's a lot of clinical evidence,

there's a lot about chemical evidence,

there's a lot of mechanisms.

So I take anywhere from one to two grams of EPA per day,

even if that requires taking six rather than the suggested

three capsules per day or taking a full table spoon

or even two tablespoons of fish oil.

And frankly, most people are getting too much omega six

fatty acids and not enough omega three.

So shout out to the fish oils.

What is the recommended protocol

for measuring hormone levels?

Interesting.

How frequently do you advise monitoring these levels

to accurately determine their typical range?

And I just have to try and pronounce your name

Valade Rez Nishenko.

What a cool name.

Valade Rez Nishenko.

I'm a big fan of like two syllable version.

Oh no, none today.

All right.

So Valade Rez Nishenko.

Thank you for this question and the opportunity

to try and pronounce your name.

So hormone levels, I think a good thing to do

is in the absence of any apparent

or suspected endocrine dysfunction, right?

So we're talking about, you feel pretty good,

you're wondering if you're good under,

if I say good under the hood,

that just sounds like weird, it rhymes.

So if you're feeling pretty good,

I recommend getting your hormone levels checked once

if you can, if you're still in your teens,

in your late teens.

After you've gone through puberty

to establish a sort of baseline.

Most people won't do that because it's too late.

I didn't do that.

Once in your mid 20s, again, we're talking about

no suspected or apparent endocrine dysfunction,

okay, in your mid 20s.

So you have a baseline, something to compare to

when you were in your, say, 18 to 20

and again, when you're 25, that would be ideal.

And then again, I would say when you're 30

and then start once a year, starting when you are 40

or older.

I think that just logically, I would love to know

what my hormone levels were when I was 25,

when I was 30, maybe when I was, yeah,

when I was 18, 25, 30, 35,

and actually 35 is when I got my first blood draw

for just getting a look under the hood.

Like what's there?

What are my estrogen levels?

What are my testosterone levels?

What are my growth hormone levels?

This kind of thing.

And then once you're 40 and older,

I think once a year, minimum,

and I realize that some people out there

are gonna say, well, that's ridiculous.

What are you gonna do with that information?

Well, you're gonna do a lot with that information.

You're gonna figure out whether or not

your LDL cholesterol is in healthy range.

You're gonna figure out whether or not your ALT

is in healthy range.

You're gonna figure out whether or not

your APOB is in healthy range.

You're gonna figure out a lot more than just

whether or not your testosterone is, you know,

400, 600, 800, or 1200.

And I think we also need to be careful

about over-interpreting results of hormones

because a lot of it has to do with the ratio

of testosterone, estrogen,

or the ratio of free testosterone

to testosterone, both in men and women.

So for instance, if your testosterone level is 900,

but your free testosterone level is two,

well, then you have a problem.

Whereas if your total testosterone level is 500 or 600,

but your free testosterone level is, you know, 15,

well, then you're probably doing pretty well.

So I would say getting your hormone levels checked

once a year after age 40

and prior to that, once every three to five years,

starting at about age 18 would be ideal.

But most people don't do that.

They either don't have the disposable income.

I certainly didn't when I was 18, 20, 25.

And at that time, it was really hard to get that measured

unless you had a clinical problem.

Now, if anyone has a clinical problem

that they suspect or is real,

then obviously more testing.

I think great sources for endocrine profiling

are things like Insight Tracker,

full disclosure, they are a sponsor of the podcast,

but they do an excellent job.

They'll even come to your house.

The flambatomist will come to your house if you want

or you can go to a clinic

so that they make it all very easy.

But there are other sources as well, right?

I'll never make these AMAs or anything else

about specific companies for its own sake.

I just think Insight Tracker does a great job.

There are a number of clinics like Mara Kelt

and others online clinics that will do that,

but it's part of a more comprehensive package

of agreeing to work with them.

At least that's how I understand it.

I hope I didn't get that wrong.

But check and see, nowadays it's pretty easy

to find ways to get your hormones checked.

But I would suggest that the following things

at least beyond there, growth hormone or IGF-1,

rather IGF-1 testosterone estrogen.

This is true for women and men, by the way.

So IGF-1 testosterone estrogen

that will show up as estradiol on their free testosterone,

dihydrotestosterone cortisol.

Keep in mind, morning cortisol is always elevated

relative to afternoon cortisol.

It will be impacted by food.

So you want to go in fasted in the morning,

ideally get this done early.

Your creatinine levels, which by the way,

will be elevated if you're taking creatine

or your exercising hard.

The doctor will say, your creatinine levels are elevated

and you say, well, great, well, my creatinine intake

is elevated too.

So take that.

It's not going to be a problem necessarily

to check with your doctor.

LDL cholesterol, APOB, and there are probably a few others

that would be good to have in there

for men and women, sex hormone, binding,

globulin, SHBG, and for women, especially,

progesterone and prolactin and any of the progestins

are going to be important.

And of course, for women, the chick is going

to be when you get your blood taken

with respect to your hormone cycle,

your ovulatory cycle.

And to try and make that at least consistent

from test to test, not necessarily having to go in

both during the follicular and the luteal phase

of your cycle, but always going in

during mid follicular or midluteal.

And that can be challenging to do, perhaps.

But that's going to be important

because of course, those are widely fluctuating levels

across the cycle.

But unless you're really obsessed with your hormone levels

and analyzing them, taking them at multiple times

throughout your menstrual cycle,

probably not necessarily unless you're starting

to think about conceiving or there's some issue,

PCOS or other issue.

Warning, the following Zipper Cruder radio spot

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When you're hiring, we at Zipper Cruder

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for just fine.

F**k.

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With Zipper Cruder, you can forget your frustrations

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In fact, four out of five employers

who post on Zipper Cruder get a quality candidate

within the first day.

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get ready to meet first rate talent.

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Finally, that zippercruder.com slash zip.

Warning, the following Zipper Cruder radio spot

you are about to hear is going to be filled with F words.

When you're hiring, we at Zipper Cruder

know you can feel frustrated for Lauren even.

Like your efforts are futile.

And you can spend a fortune trying to find fabulous people

only to get flooded with candidates who are just fine.

Fuck.

Fortunately, Zipper Cruder figured out how to fix all that.

And right now, you can try Zipper Cruder for free

at zippercruder.com slash zip.

With Zipper Cruder, you can forget your frustrations

because we find the right people for your roles fast,

which is our absolute favorite F word.

In fact, four out of five employers

who post on Zipper Cruder get a quality candidate

within the first day.

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Okay, I find that I need to do NSDR after working out.

Any thoughts on this?

Yes, well, first of all, I'm glad you're using NSDR

as your cost tool known to replenishment,

mental and physical vigor, works so well.

I think it's great.

I think it probably is accelerating your recovery.

I think this tells me that you're probably working out

really hard and hopefully not too long.

If you find that you work out in the morning

and then you're really, really sleepy in the afternoon

and the next day, you might be working out too long

or too hard.

So maybe ratchet back the intensity

a little bit or the duration.

It's amazing how great we can feel when we work out

to like 80 to 90% of our maximum output and duration.

We did this the other day, we went out for a little jog,

run, bounding, skipping, jumping jack thing

and stopped at like 80 to 90% of maximum

and then went about the rest of the day

and evening feeling great.

If you do this consistently, you'll find you have more energy

and there's actually a lot of solid physiology

and physics to support why that is.

As opposed to, if you go to the gym and you do

every set to failure or even every exercise,

you include one set to failure

and you're grinding out four straps

or you're, I don't know what kind of exercise you're doing

or you're running more and more distance each day

or with more intensity.

You know, it's understandable how one gets kind of drawn

to or addicted to that burn or the effort.

But keep in mind, that is stress.

You're stressing the body to produce a certain kind of adaptation

either endurance or strength or hypertrophy

or et cetera adaptation.

So there's real beauty in learning to love working out hard

but to leaving the gym or ending the run

with 10 to 20% of the gas in the tank

and knowing that you can come back and do more

and you actually kind of want to do more.

There's, it increases vigor as opposed to taking yourself

over that cliff even a slight 10 to 20%

and then finding that you're kind of depleted.

And this is something that we don't hear enough about

because most people that are into fitness

are into pushing themselves.

It's also true for work.

I think some of the best advice I ever got

in the professional landscape was when I was a graduate student

at UC Berkeley and an excellent neurologist

by the name of Bob Knight said,

the key is to figure out how much can you work each day

consistently.

If that's four hours a day fine, if that's eight hours a day fine,

we're talking with weekend breaks

because that was in the year of weekend breaks.

Maybe a weekend every once in a while where you have a deadline.

But by thinking about what you personally can really do

consistently while maintaining sleep

and mental health and physical health,

you're gonna go a lot further than doing like for instance,

what I did, which is maniac and working 100 hour weeks

as a graduate student and then ending up sick four times a year

and missing out on a bunch of days

when I could have been in lab.

So these days I try and get as much focused work done as possible

but trying to make that as consistent as possible

if not from every day to the next over time.

Figure out what those averages are

and don't be ashamed of those averages.

I would say declare those averages to people

so they know what to expect.

And the fact that you can do more

does not necessarily mean that you should do more

because I think one of the best pieces of advice

I ever got in the world of fitness

is more important than training hard,

more important than doing any particular exercises,

more important than anything is to not get hurt.

Because if you get hurt, you can't train.

So I love that you're doing NSDR after training.

I love that you're making that part of your practice

but maybe also throttle back a little bit

because you said I have to do it after training.

Maybe throttle back a little bit on the duration

or intensity of exercise and see how you feel.

What can we do to optimize the function

of our gut brain access?

That's very simple.

Get enough sleep in addition to that.

Avoid excessive intake of antibiotics

but if your doctor prescribes them, take them.

I am a believer in antibiotics.

Okay, before the internet jumps on me

I'm not anti-biotic.

I'm not anti-anti-biotic.

I always wanna say that.

I'm not anti-anti-biotic.

I am not pro-anti-biotic

but I am pro-biotics.

I'm probiotic.

So I think you should ingest wonderful servings

of low sugar fermented foods per day.

So sauerkra, kimchi, nato, or keyfurt

or otherwise whatever you like

and fits with your nutrition preferences and plan.

I think it's also very important

that you don't overuse antiseptics

like antiseptic mouth washes and hand rinses

and all that stuff.

This was all discussed on a podcast episode.

I did with Dr. Justin Sonnenberg

on the Uber and Lab podcast

which is just to say that Justin,

who's a professor at Stanford and is amazing,

even said that he lets his kids eat lunch

when they've been playing outside

without washing their hands before eating lunch

because he wants the probiotic makeup

of their gut to be diverse, including from outside.

Now I'm presuming that's not a public park.

I'm assuming it's their yard.

So we're not talking about gross stuff being on their hands.

We're talking about a little dirt here and there.

Turns out owning a pet increases the diversity

of your microbiome.

Lots of things like that.

I mean, you don't want to go around

licking people's pets.

It's okay to let them lick you

and depending on what your preferences are,

but don't lick them.

But when you interact with people,

you shake their hands, your pets,

you're increasing the diversity of your microbiome.

When you eat low sugar fermented foods,

you want to make sure also you get enough fiber,

both prebiotic and probiotic fibers

of fruits and vegetables.

The fiber debate for me just makes me roll my eyes.

I mean, it's so clear that fiber is good for us,

for gut motility and for offsetting cancers of the gut.

I mean, I realize there are the people out there

who are really into elimination diets

where they just only eat meat.

But I mean, there's just so much good data on fiber,

especially from fiber as vegetables.

It just seems like what?

Yes.

I mean, that's almost silly that we have the debate, frankly.

But I'm sure someone out there who's pure carnivore

will be shouting, but guess what?

You're shouting and you're constipated.

Last question.

Regarding the subject on tongue cleaning

from the oral health episode,

can you please share a bit on brushing tongue, scraping tongue,

and generally how best to clean the tongue?

So tongue cleaning came up on the oral health episode.

I talked to four different dentists

and a periodontist in preparation for that episode.

Almost all of them remarkably extraordinarily converged

on the same advice, except for some slight deviations

around frequency of flossing.

It's kind of cool, right?

A field where almost everybody seems to agree.

I realize that isn't the usual sample size,

but I picked them from diverse locations, backgrounds,

trainings, et cetera.

Every one of them said,

pressure and floss your teeth.

Every one of them said antiseptic alcohol-based

mouth washes are bad.

And every single one of them said that brushing your teeth

before sleep is especially important

because at night you produce less saliva

and you want to be able to remineralize your teeth.

That is fill-in cavities that are starting to form

while you sleep.

So pressure teeth floss ideally as well before sleep,

but at least brush.

And of course in the morning too, for everyone's sake.

But if we're talking about tongue brushing and scraping,

it was clear that the tongue scraping was advised

if done correctly, okay?

Because there are certain bacteria

that grow on the tongue that you don't want there.

And that scraping can help with the turnover

of healthy bacteria there in addition

to removing some of the bad bacteria.

But that most people scrape their tongue too hard.

And rather, it would be wise to brush your tongue gently

with a soft toothbrush.

And by the way, you should also use a soft brush

for your teeth, but not the same one that you use

for tongue brushing.

So the takeaway that I was told

and makes a lot sense to me based on what I know now

about the biology, physiology, and care of the mouth

is that you want to use a different soft toothbrush

or tongue than the soft brush that you use

to brush your teeth.

And that you do not need to use anything on it.

But if you wanted to put a little bit of salt

and baking soda, that is perfectly fine.

A lot of people wonder whether or not baking soda

scrapes the enamel off the teeth.

It actually is low on the abrasion scale.

Dentists have, believe it or not, an abrasion scale

with a list of things of how much enamel it scrapes off

and a given pressure.

Dentists have done their work.

It's really, really cool.

I can't say I always liked dentists.

I didn't like going to dentists.

They always seem like nice people.

But now I have newfound respect for dentists.

They really care about their craft and oral health

has been kind of pushed to the back seat

of the different aspects of health.

I consider it one of the major pillars

of mental health and physical health

because taking care of your teeth,

your gums, your mouth,

including your oral microbiome is critical

for cardiovascular health.

It's critical for brain health.

One of the bad bacteria is streptococcus mutants

that can proliferate in the mouth,

especially after sugary eating sugary foods.

I can make it through the blood brain barrier

and maybe it's thought one of the causes of dementia

can disrupt your neurons.

Your brain body is a system.

Everything's talking to everything else.

And so, yeah, brush your tongue.

We use a separate soft brush to do that

and replace it every few weeks to months.

I suppose I get expensive,

but probably not as expensive as some of the other health issues

that were just described.

So I appreciate that question.

We didn't talk about oil pulling on the podcast.

A lot of people asked about that.

Some people like to swish oil and then spit it out

as a way that's oil pulling for oral health.

All the dentists I spoke to said,

nah, not big fans of oil pulling,

but none of them said it would be particularly bad.

But, you know, so if you enjoy it

or you think it works for you great,

but none of them really pointed to any clear evidence

that it was going to be beneficial.

So I was told that was the last question

and we are coming up on the hour.

Again, I want to thank everybody for joining.

This AMA, doing this from Australia, Sydney, Australia.

What's interesting down here is

because we are below the equator,

everything is reversed, right?

So this was actually, it's being presented to you.

I was, I'm actually upside down,

but they turned the camera,

so I would appear right side up to you.

Also, when I'm down here, I drink my AG1.

Normally I swish it counterclockwise

by nose here reflexively, I'm swishing it clockwise.

So anyway, lots of interesting stuff going on.

We'll talk about how that all works.

It's not through the vestibular ocular reflex.

It turns out, but maybe on a future episode

of the podcast about the relationship

between location relative to the equator

and neural functioning, and I'm just kidding.

But what I'm not kidding about

is they appreciate that you tuned in.

And last, but certainly not least,

thank you for your interest in science.

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