Amir Levine (on attachment theory)

Welcome, welcome, welcome to our expert experts on expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Lily Padman.

Hi.

Hi, we have the author of an incredibly popular book. Yes.

Read by millions. Millions indeed.

His first book was attached. A mirror Levine. He is a psychiatrist, a neuroscientist,

and of course, a best-selling author. And he has a new book out, kind of answering as he talks

about attached, outlined these different attachment styles. And then people were naturally curious,

can I change mine? And so his new book is to address that exact question. Secure the revolutionary

guide to creating a secure life. Please enjoy Dr. Amir Levine. This episode of Armchair

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Hi, Monty. How are you? I'm good. Did you have a good weekend? I did have a good weekend.

Anything spectacular happened? Nothing spectacular, which is a good weekend.

You know, relaxing weekend. I'm moving this week. Friday? I'm sleeping now on Friday.

Oh my god, Monica's been building a house across the street for what, five, six years?

It'll be six years. Wow, congratulations. That's amazing. Thank you. It's been a long time coming,

so I am very excited. So this week is a big week because there's a lot of like moving parts

and getting the stuff over. I wonder if any of your attachment theory stuff is coming up.

Oh, I hope. I hope. I'm so obsessed with attachment theory. I'm so glad you're here because

I'm obsessed with it and I don't think I really understand it. And I think a lot of people feel

that way. Like they reference attachment theory a lot, but I don't know if we're all doing it

correctly. There's a lot of myths and misconceptions for sure. Okay, great. Well, we're going to

learn from a mirror originally. I grew up in Jerusalem. Oh, okay. Do you find this to be true

that the Israelis, they took up highest on the disagreeability category. We've had a lot

experts talk about that. Oh, that Israelis disagree a lot. Oh, yeah, it's part of our culture.

Yeah, yeah, I like it. It took me time with Americans with considered being rude. Yeah,

it's actually just normal way of speaking. Like they go like that. She's like, no, I don't agree

with you. Yeah, that would be so rude. No one would speak like that here. Do you know Orna? Yeah,

just she worked at NYU in some capacity. I think she does. I don't know personally, but I know

her work, but you're at Columbia. I am at Columbia. Yeah. Well, we had her on and I was saying to

her, she has this wonderful gift of she's endlessly hopeful and empathetic. And also, and I asked

her, I'm like, is this the Israeli site? You can also on a dime be like, okay, disagreeable time.

So like you're very comfortable in the disagreeability. I'd say I'm high on the disagreeability.

Not only that, I think that's how I got into Columbia to do my residency there. Really? Yeah,

I went to medical school in Jerusalem and they said, don't bother. They don't take foreign medical

graduates. And I said, okay, I'll just go and at least I'll get to talk to all these interesting

researchers. And I read about the research and done some of the people I knew about the research

because usually go and you go to Grand Rounds. You spend the day on the wards and I said, no,

I want to meet with the researchers. Yeah. So then I met with one guy who seemed kind of like

old and very non-threatening. And I knew about his work. So I told him how much I liked his work,

but I could have been improved. There's all these different shortcomings in his methodology and

I said, I went on and I was just like, what do I have to do? You know, nothing to lose.

And at the end of it, he said, okay, I want you to meet with two more people. He called a few more

people around. He was the Department of Epidemiology. And they all got together and wrote a letter on

my behalf to the head of the residency program. And that's all I got. I love that. Well, am I right

or at least to believe from this book that you were originally definitely aiming at being a

therapist of some variety. I'm still I'm a therapist. Yes. Yes. But the original site was set up.

I was going to be a psychoanalyst. That's how I basically ended up where I am today. Even completely

unexpected way because back then in order to become a psychoanalyst, you have to do a year of

analysis before going to analytics. I love this personal analysis. Your own analysis.

Like four times a week on the couch talking or whatever. They said behind you, you don't see that.

Yeah, we've had numerous. In fact, we just had someone on who they themselves were a therapist. And

they got to a point in their life where they had to return to therapy. And how much there can be

a resistance to that even from therapists. Yeah. For it said that there's always resistance. It's

kind of like built into the treatments. Yeah. Yeah. He's always the part of the work as a therapist

is working through those resistances. Yes. So during this year of therapy, you came to realize in

some free association that you really still yearn for the biological. So I was going to do

potentially epidemiological research. But then during that time, I was looking for the kind of

research that I wanted to do. And I got some advice and they said, you know, researchers' life is

a really hard life. I sign to slap is really hard. So you better choose something that you're

really interested in because it's going to be a rough ride. And so I look to see what I really

liked. And I've always had an affinity to basic science and to molecular research. But I didn't

really pursue molecular. I didn't have a PhD. But I really liked it. And it was the analyst who said,

well, maybe you should give it a try. But he didn't really know what it means. I didn't barely knew

even how to hold it by pet. But I found this one paper that I really, really liked about long-term

memory and how long-term memory is conserved. And epigenetic changes in the neurons in the plezia,

which is a sea slug. That has enormous neurons. Yes. Huge neurons. And then I went. And again,

I guess that theme of going and talking. So I went and I talked to the last author on that paper.

But he wasn't the one who masterminded it. So he listened to me for two minutes. That was

Eric and Dale. And then he basically said, let's go up a floor. And we went. That's where I met

James Schwartz, Jimmy, my first mentor. I basically talked to him a little bit about my thoughts again.

The same thing about the research and the ideas that I had. And then he said, okay, we'll give you

try for three months and see how you fare. And then we'll see what happens after that. There I was.

I'm going into the lab, which I've never imagined that I would do behind the bench, starting all these

molecular experiments. Yeah. Wow. Now, do you think you had a primary question about life in

humans that you thought was going to be answered in psychoanalysis or the pursuit of it and the

practice of it and that you saw in this epigenome work? Well, maybe the answer lies over here or

had not even occurred to you yet. Do you think you had like a driving curiosity like a primary

question? I really did want to understand what makes human tick. And I really wanted to understand

the brain better. But I don't think that at the time I had a specific idea, I've always had

this thirst for knowledge, which maybe we'll explain why I did what I did because at that time,

I was almost done with my residency. It's been many years going through medical school and then

coming here and doing another year of internship to add to two years and to repeat a year of

internship. Then I did adult psychiatry and then child psychiatry all together another five years.

So after doing all the training, you were 71 years old. You're serious. You're aging back.

And when we think, okay, it's time to make money, right? Yeah. You have to open up your

practice, practice, and start making money. And then wait a second, I still really want to learn

more. And I'm going to take a salary which is made as like a tenth of the amount and just continue

with my education and learning. But I didn't even think about it that way at the time. Now,

looking back and can see, whoa, these are important years where you could have saved money for

retirement. I just really wanted that pursuit of knowledge. That's what I did. I went to the lab

and then for many, many years, I did a lot of molecular biology work. Okay, so I'll over share

with you. So I ended up doing anthro and I really think about why I did anthropology. I think I

was immediately drawn to the fact that, oh, there's a lot of different ways you can live.

And I think that was comforting because I felt like with the single mom and all these other

things that we didn't click so well with the culture I inherited. And so I was quite critical

of the culture I inherited. And I wanted to know, do we have any basis to think that this is

the way we should do things? So I guess I'm wondering for you, can you think of any kind of

primary angst? Definitely the pursuit of knowledge is a huge one. And I grew up in that environment.

I had a very unusual upbringing. My mom had even more unusual upbringing. The education that she

received, it was very, very progressive. They didn't care about grades at all. They didn't have

exams. They just would give them comments about what they did. Yeah. And so she lived in a

keyboard so it's like a commune. So they had to work a lot also agriculturally. They didn't leave

with their parents. So they wanted everyone to be equal. So they sort of separated. It's kind of

crazy. So she came from a very unusual upbringing. But I grew up in Jerusalem. I grew up with my

parents. But she also, she didn't believe in grades. And she didn't really care about school so much.

So I could actually stay home whenever I wanted from school. And I did. I stayed at home a lot.

And we had this huge library. And I would read a lot. It was completely uncensored.

Seven. I would read the comma sutra. I've tried to make sense of it. Different books that I read

at the time that I could barely understand. But I just read them anyway. And especially on days

when we had exams, I didn't have to go because she didn't believe in exams.

Oh my god. It's crazy.

Wow.

It was very unusual. And whenever we would come home, so we would read together, it was a very rich

intellectual environment. And my mom, she was the editor of the equivalent of Scientific American.

Oh no, kidding. So there's also a lot of talk about science and popular science. So here's why I

ended up also writing popular science and popular psychology. I really grew up with it.

And by the way, I would say in probably the best motivated way possible, which is like

intrinsically, it's not about getting the good grade. It's not about getting the test right.

Knowledge for betterment. Also to think about something original,

something that can make people think differently or look at things differently.

Were your parents divorced? They're not divorced. A very, very long relationship to

asking because I didn't mention my dad yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you're asking about a motivation to

understand human behavior, they were completely opposites. My mom and my dad, my mom was a single

child who came from an Ashkenazi European ancestry Jewish ancestry. My dad was a Sephardic Jew.

They had ten siblings. Came from a very poor family. And he never even finished the fifth grade.

Wow. Yeah, he had horrible ADHD. He was bouncing whenever the teacher would come into the classroom.

It was like you out. Get off your desk and leave the classroom. By the fifth grade, he was done

with the formal education, but he was a very smart person and very, very unusual person also.

Exactly the opposite of this progressive. Even high on the disagreeability scale within.

Completely high on the disagreeability scale. Like off the chart. Can I tell you what he did once we

were at the hotel? I don't remember who the president was. The president of the United States was

visiting. He was there with all his entourage and everyone surrounding him. They're all wearing

suit and I got nervous. So I kind of like clutched on to my dad's hand and he said,

you have nothing to be afraid of. Here, they're all humans just like you. Let me show you something.

Oh boy. And you took out a quarter and you flipped it in the air and then you found the marble floor

and you make it like this little sound and they're all looking down to see what had fell. It was like

an instant and you see, you see, we're all the same. Oh, I love that example. I thought he was

going to do something wide like the president. Yeah. This is a weird question, but were you embarrassed

by him? Because he was so different. We were so different. I think it took me many, many years to

now really more understand what was going on in that relationship. It was not an easy relationship.

For many, many years, I saw it from really my point of view of like he was really difficult,

stubborn. Everything had to be done his way. So like the opposite of what my mom was,

with him, if I didn't make it to school, that was a big deal. Thankfully, he wasn't around a lot

and that's how I was able to get away with it. But if you were around, eventually let my mom do whatever

she wanted to do. But he was very, very difficult later on. And actually, that's part of why

even wrote this new book secure because all of my understanding and everything that I understood

about our relationship really shifted and I stayed now for a more secure place because he was

more an avoidant. Oh gosh, he was definitely somewhat avoidant. And I think also somewhat

fearful avoidant, sort of like a mixture of it. Now that we know a lot more about ADHD, the

rigidity in the game plan, how much different that is for his experience in your moms or other

people's definitely maybe a little compassion. I have so much more compassion to him now and then

because of this whole process that I went through in understanding how to look at the world

more securely. And that has helped me so much because yes, he was difficult, but I was not easy

either. And how was this smart-ass kid who was really highly educated, was reading all these books,

belittled him. Yes, yeah. And corrected his language and was like do all these things triggered

his insecurities. Yes, constantly. Yeah. Isn't it so sad that we realized this all, is your

dad gone? He's gone, yeah. Yeah, mine too. And I'm like, I just hate that I now have all this

compassion for him because I was the great challenger of him as well. Just like me. Yeah.

Just the kids, that's almost part of their role. It's normal. But he can get vicious. I know,

it can't trust me. I know. For me, it's just sad. It's like, here's this man on Earth that had

this boy he clearly loved. And I could have adored him more. And that would have filled him up

more. And that was on the table for me to do. And I didn't for all my many reasons. That's a bummer.

It's like karma gets you eventually. So now I have this little dog who's really, really cute.

But he likes me, but he always grows at me. He has a contentious relationship with me.

He's you. Yes, basically. And I see how much I love this dog. And that also helped me. And again,

it's those secure shifts that I've had in my understanding of myself and my life that really

helped change how I see things. And so now I understand, wow, my dad really loved me because I

see how much I love this dog, even though he's so mean to me. Right. Right. And I'm like, yeah, my

dad really loved me because even though I was mean to him, I know that he did, but then I had this

idea like, how do you feel about me when I was behaving towards him on that way? And now I know

because I can feel it in signs. Yeah. Yeah. I don't even think it's ever anger. It's just kind of

hurt, which is even sad. Yeah. You know, it's just angry about it. Okay. So at some point in your

65 years in academia and residency and all this stuff, you yourself come across attachment theory.

And you're learning about it. So just give us a brief as possible explanation of attachment theory

which started maybe in the 50s or something. Yes. I came across adult attention theory by chance.

When you learn to become a psychiatrist, you know about childhood attachment, but I didn't know

that adult have attachment styles and that they attach during that time when we worked in

attachment therapy with kids and their mothers, I would love it so much. So I read everything that

there was about it. That's where I came across adult attachment. There's the anxious,

avoidance and secure and fearful avoidance. And at the time, I was going through a breakup and

it explained so much. Right. It felt like a light bulb running my head. And like, wow, now I

understand what went down in this relationship, why it didn't work out and what also happened

in other relationships. And so basically, do we really need to understand about these attachment styles?

Yeah. Let's start with the children. So with children, the way that he works,

Bobby is the founder of attachment theory. And he had this idea that wasn't prevalent at the time

because Freud always thought that we attach to our mothers and fathers. Ford blames them

mother a lot. We attach to the mother because she gives us sustenance and food and it's a

byproduct of that. But then, Bobby, who actually worked with children because Freud didn't really

work with children. No, he didn't cook and sat in his room and thought. He actually said,

no, I beg to differ because he saw what happens when children get all of their material needs met,

but they were not giving the attachment that they needed. And so he said, no, attachment is a basic

need. Just like food and water, it's not the byproduct. It's something that we need. And then

there's the harlow experiments that show even in monkeys, how much they really need.

There's poor little monkeys clinging to a cloth instead of the wired mother versus the cloth mother.

The wired mother gave food and the cloth mother, it was just a piece of cloth gave intimacy.

Yeah, but it was cold and metal, but there was this cloth and the monkeys went to the cloth.

Oh, no. At the expense of food. They would eat a little bit and then sort of go to the cloth.

But remember what he said because we don't really understand it so much in adulthood.

And Bobby did say that attachment starts in birth, actually starts before and then goes on until

we die. And I would argue even after here, we were talking about our fathers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow,

great point. Basically, he said that, but then came Mary Ann's worth who was more of an experimental

psychologist. So, brilliant. She discovered these attachment style anxious, avoidant and secure

in children in something that's called the strange situation test.

Challenge. So the strange situation test, it's basically you bring a toddler and their caregiver

into a room full of toys and you watch them through a one-way mirror. You can see it on YouTube,

it's really remarkable. You bring them in, the child sees the toys immediately. I want to play,

I want to play, start pointing at things, they rush over, start playing and then they ask the

caregiver to leave the room. Immediately, they drop or they're doing, they sort of run to the door,

they stop banging on the door, crying. And then they ask the mother, the caregiver to come back

to the room. And it's in that reunion, that moment where Mary Ann's worth identified the three

attachments file, the anxious, avoidant and secure. And it's remarkable to see it's basically how

effective is that bond in regulating the child's emotion. Oh, interesting. Yeah. And it's very

important, actually, that correlation is so important and also translates to adult, so that I'm

sort of stressing it, I'm like really making a point of it. Yeah. So basically, the secure bond,

the mother picks them up and immediately, it's just like magic, they just come down right away and

then start pointing at the toys, wanting to engage again. Yeah. Anxious, not so much. What happens,

what do they do? They just take their long time to calm them down, sometimes they come down and

then start crying again. It's called the calm, calm paradigm. So the bond is not as effective

in regulating their emotions. And the avoidant, sometimes they don't even cry, or even they do a

little bit, they stay limp in the mother's hands. Is it fair to say they're pissed at the caregiver?

So you think, oh, sometimes they look like I don't care, whatever. But when you look at their

blood pressure, their pulse, it's through the roof. So they're blocking their attachment needs,

but at the same time, they're alone in trying to regulate the emotions. They don't know how to

utilize the bond to regulate their emotions. They all have to do with how good are people,

children, and then adults in using others to regulate their feelings and emotions.

Do we know what the contributing factors are that end up in an anxious attachment versus the

avoidant attachment? Are there patterns within that parenting style that produce that outcome?

That's a very good question. And we do know a little bit. It's kind of like a wild field

because apparently there's something that's called the adult attachment interview.

They're same attachment styles in adulthood, but they have nothing to do with the other attachment

styles or more romantic ones or other relationships. It has more to do how we remember our childhood.

Not so much the memories themselves, but how we narrate our childhood. There's the adult

attachment interview. It gets scored by psychologists. And that can predict to some degree the

attachments of the child. So how well if you're very structured in your narration of your past,

then the child will be more secure in the strange situation test. It's the parent? Yes.

Oh, why? Yes, it's pretty wild. So if they have a pretty coherent chronological story of

their own life. That makes sense. That's coherent, makes sense. Odds are they're going to have a

more secure. Yeah, there's better chances. Again, nothing in this is like one to one ever.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. That's predict to some degree the child

attachment style. And then if you're avoidant, then if you're like, oh my god, I had the most

amazing childhood. But then actually when you talk about the memories, there's going to get

discrepancy. Yeah. Then the child that's more avoidant and the anxious jump around from one

topic to another. But I still don't really know what to make of it. Yeah. Right. This is very

hard. So now tell me how you you're going through a breakup, you're learning about this.

Long behold, adults also have these attachment styles anxious, avoidant and secure.

Only we don't play with toys like that anymore, but it has to do with our attitudes towards

closeness and intimacy on the one hand. And then on the other hand, how sensitive of a radar do we

have for infractions in their relationship? And what I mean from an attachment perspective is when

all of a sudden we feel that the other person is not available to us because attachment

is really a radar of availability of other people. It's a safety system. People think it's such a

deep thing about bonding. It really is a very rudimentary safety system. It's how we feel safe in

the world. And so we survey the environment and we kind of have an idea in our mind and you

too probably also have an idea in your mind where your loved ones are and they're okay. But if I

were to tell you that God forbid and I even had saying that there's something that happens

you won't be able to continue to have this conversation. You'd have to stop and immediately

check to see that they're okay. So we have this surveillance system going in the back of our

head all the time. People with an anxious attachment style, their surveillance system can pick up

and very subtle changes of that availability and potential threat. But the research also shows that

it's not the only thing they're very good at picking up. They're picking up and picking a lot of

different social cues. There's a downside to it, but it also comes with a huge upside.

Let's say if you're and I've seen it so many times with patients and just in people in the world

like if you're better at day trading can sort of really see subtle changes that other people won't

be able to detect. They're just very very good at detecting. And then also one then questions and

that's what I really try to do in this book is turn around that whole causality thing because

oftentimes people blame their parents for their adult attachment style and it's completely wrong.

But think about how hard it is to raise a child that has that level of

ability really superpowers to pick up cues from the environment. It can be a little stressful

for all party involved. I gave an example in the chapter because I really was trying to look for

an example that people don't understand. No, it's not only about danger, it's not only about

sort of like bad things. True, they can also identify danger. But in the book I gave an example

about a woman who has an adopted daughter and she takes her to the first day of school.

She starts playing with another girl there that she also finds out he's the top of it and

then also and she stops and like I can't believe I'm seeing this. These girls are sisters and she

saw that in their facial expression they weren't exactly the same but she could sort of detect

the similarities in their sort of facial structure in the way that they smile, the way that they

move and she started talking to other people and said no way, no one believes her. The odds are

staggering. Exactly, but she kept at it and lo and behold, they actually are sisters.

Wow. And what did she do with that information? These sisters are bonded. She found her daughter

or her sister. I think it's years later and they're as close as ever. So it's a really good

story. Yeah. You're right though. We tend to pathologize every single thing that we know about

and it's like all these things are trade-offs. They all come with some benefit or you want

to have gotten to this point. I'm glad that you said that because I would say that my biggest

mission in this book for people to realize that attachment and that's one of the biggest misconceptions

and when you look on social media that people equate anxious and avoidant with pathology. That's

why I'm so drawn to the science because attachment, it doesn't come from the medical model of pathology

and healing and curing pathology. It actually comes from social psychology and the neurodevelopmental

model. So the question is not about what's wrong and how we can cure it or heal it. It's more about

is it effective or is it not effective? Is the bond effective in regulating the emotions?

Is it working for you? Is it not working for you? Is it servicing your goals or not?

And from an attachment perspective, specifically, are you able to use this as something

called a secure base? Is it giving you a secure base? Because the point of view of relationships

from an attachment perspective, remember it's like a safety mechanism. It's for you actually to

fade into the background. So, you know, in the strange situation when the childy wants to play

with all these toys and everyone wants to know what it looks like to see if the mother is there.

That's the point of a relationship so we can kind of like check to see if they're there,

but not to think about you that much. So you to be in the background so we don't play with toys,

but we have hobbies, we have careers, we parents, we have all these different things. So attachment

is really linked to our exploratory drive. When we feel safe, we can explore. So it's more related to that.

Okay, so, but it bring everyone up to speed. So you wrote with Helen attached, which was

applying this attachment theory to adults and specifically romantic. Right, because that's

what he was initially about. Yeah. And so this book is enormously successful and it also has a very

peculiar trajectory as a book in that it's kind of hockey shaped in its distribution. Didn't it

just continue to swell over time? And there were some interesting catalysts like COVID and TikTok.

Initially, when we wrote a book where this running joke between us that is only going to sell one

copy to the Library of Congress. I went through this breakup and she's my childhood friend and so

instead of just, you know, how you talk about breakups incessantly. So I said, you know what,

instead of sort of wasting all that energy about talking about the breakup, let's make something

good about it. Can I ask what your style was? Was it anxious? With this person, yes. Yeah.

It wasn't so much anxious. I didn't understand what was going on and then that goes to this idea

like all these myths that we have. If you don't know about attachment theory, we have this idea

that everybody loves the same, but science doesn't show that everybody loves the same. We love very

differently if we're anxious, subordinate and secure. We haven't even gone to it yet. Yeah.

We will get to it in a moment, but we love very, very differently. So for me, I was more like the

anxious secure part and then it was certainly driven more towards anxious when the other person

stopped responding on. They said, you know, when I really like someone, I actually think about

getting on the plane and moving away to the west coast. And for me, it didn't make any sense because

why would you want to do that? If you really like someone, don't you want to see a future together?

Don't you want to think about being together? But avoidance would they don't like too much closeness

and oftentimes when they feel too much closeness, they want to bulk, they want to run away.

But I didn't know that, that that's 25% of the population, that it's scary for them, that it means

that they feel a loss of independence. I'll add a layer because I think when I was younger,

I probably, you'll be the first to acknowledge it, but like these are all spectrum categories.

That's what this new book is really emphasizing. And also we are very fluid and context dependent.

So I'm related to dependent on one way here and one way there. But if I had to say what I lean

more towards is actually zero fear of intimacy, being close, that felt wonderful. But I would be

immediately overwhelmed with the responsibility of that. And then this fear, almost in an OCD way,

well, if I have to break up with this person, this is going to be so painful. And I'm now so afraid

of this responsibility of potentially hurting this person, then now I'm starting to feel a little

trapped by it. So yeah, it's a version of avoidance. There's all these hues of it. It is, yeah,

exactly. You weren't afraid by the physical closeness or even the emotional. Yeah, you weren't

afraid by that. None of it scared me. But somehow it felt like, whoa, this is a big responsibility.

Definitely a tinge of avoidance there. And also I listened to some of your podcasts.

I saw also there are moments of change. And I really put a lot of emphasis in this book of those

small moments of change. I think Monica, you brought it up in one of the podcasts about sort of

the glass of water story that you used to have. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, it's crazy. Yes. That is

like, why should I get a, like, no, she should get us sitting here. Yes, exactly. No, why should

they do that? And they know, like, potentially, what does it mean? What pattern am I setting that?

This is the rest of my life. I'll be waiting on this person. Right. Exactly. I'm getting

taken advantage of that type of thing. And then the leap of faith of, no, actually, hold on. Do I

think this person is someone who will exploit and take advantage of me because I'm nicest one time?

And then that was the kind of the breakthroughs. Like, no, I don't think this person is that way.

I don't need to have this fear. And that moment that shift, that's exactly how our brain changes

towards greater security. I love that example. That's what I thought I would bring you up because it's

such an important, it seems like, oh, yeah, but it's really, it's a major shift for our brain.

So you're able to use what we call metacognition, which is like thinking about our thoughts.

And hopefully you got up and got the glass of water. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I have a

mind. But then it starts all over again when you have kids. Am I setting that up for a pattern

that I think is untenable for their life? I heard that. Maybe you mentioned something about

when they call from the kitchen. Yeah. I was like, they fall or something happened in the kitchen.

Like, oh, I don't want to get up. And then eventually, no, but maybe I should. And sometimes

you're doing, sometimes you don't, but you've evolved. Stay tuned for more armchair expert.

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As I always say, it's like my life now is stepping over the many bad thoughts I have

in root to who I want to be. But they're going to come up every time. It's like,

oh, that's that thing, that's that. The thing is what I'm trying to really show in this book is

that it's not necessarily a bad thought. It's more like this belief that every person should

take care of themselves. And it's not a bad belief. It's just a belief. We then assign it blame or

bad or sort of even give it a potential causal mechanism. But if we just examine it phenomenologically

for what it is, it's a belief. And then you say, but is it working for me or is it not working for me?

But some people could be in that exact same situation and probably have an anxious attachment.

Oh, yeah. Of course. It's not like one equals this. A different person in that exact same

environment. Oh, yeah, of course, usually in the mix. Yes, of course. Because there's so

many different parameters that go into this mix. So you're right. Some people will actually say,

well, because I didn't have a mother that doted on me. Now I have all these issues. And now I can

detect threat when someone tries to pull away because I can identify it. Right. It looks so

familiar. I know what this looks like. I think I have anxious. I wasn't going to self-diagnose you,

but yeah, I mean, look, the way you would pray for your family members. A lot of fear.

Superstitial. If I miss this prayer, they're going to die. But that's not really attachment.

Or is it? I think it's more about how effective is the bond between you two? Like if you reach out

to them, how quickly can you calm down? Anxious attachment is not necessarily just having

separation attachment. It's more about being afraid that the bond that you're not going to be

loved as much as you want to be loved, that other people will leave you, that other people will

fail you. Yeah, you have that. But I bet it's more peer-derived than parenting. I definitely

yet we're because I don't have that at all with my parents. Right. But her otherness in her peer

group. So that's the beauty. And that's why I really wanted to, I mean, look, 15 years this past

with my last book and a lot of new information was discovered about attachment. And I really

found that there's a potential here to help people flourish. And actually, after I finished writing

the book, then all these people started coming to me asking, okay, help me become more secure.

But I didn't have an immediate answer for that because we never really learned about it in

the clinical world. Basically, Rachel and I took it from papers and tried to breathe clinical

life into it, but I didn't have an immediate answer to how you become more secure. And then

the answer came over time from the lab, actually, not from my work, from understanding the brain.

Not from cocaine use in your study. Yes, exactly.

But really from understanding the brain. Yeah. So the first book helped you understand your

attachment style. And then people want to know how do I change it. Right. Right. And now this book

secure is going to help us change into a secure attachment. As a neuroscientist, it's the kind of

therapy I wish I could go into with people no more about the brain because most therapies,

they haven't been updated. Some of it is not the blame of the therapies because the NIH doesn't

really sponsor them studies about new therapies. But there's so much more that we know about the

brain. It's kind of like the kind of therapy that me as a neuroscientist would want to have,

but it didn't exist. And so over time, I didn't have this grandiose idea. I'm going to create it,

but it just over time just happened on its own and I created these tools. And the whole idea is

if you know that a part of your life is much more secure than others, that certain relationships

are much more secure, then why not then really increase the volume on that part of your life.

And just like shift the attention and the focus to sort of create a more secure life.

And that really changes the brain on such a fundamental level. What you do is you merge

together three different fields. You're kind of you've all heard of this. You're like,

you're doing the neuroscience, you're doing the clinical psychology, you're doing the attachment,

the attachment, and you're creating what you would call now. This secure, priming therapy,

but it's not only therapy and coaching, but it's also the way I started creating it actually. I

started creating a course for high school. Anybody could learn I had a student and she wanted to do

some sort of a science exhibit on the social brain. And she asked me, what would be the most

important lessons? And I came up with five and then actually like three of them made it into the

book and these were the things that I thought would be the most beneficial for people to know.

And then I thought, oh, I can actually make a course out of this where people would actually learn

if you really believe that you should only count on yourself. That's not a bad thought necessarily

or it's not a pathology, but it's really more to explain about how the brain responds to

exclusion. Our brain hates exclusion. And I called it a cyberball effect and then I developed an

antidot to it. How do we sort of then create the opposite because our brains loves hyper inclusion

or hyper connectedness. How do we then orchestrate that in our everyday life? So these are the three

lessons that I started to book with. Yeah. So you talk about the science of the brain and part one.

So what do we need to understand about how the brain works? So our brain loads exclusion. That

was like the most important thing that I would start with. I called it the cyberball effect.

The biggest thing is safety because we're not descendants of eagles or elephants or lions.

Yeah, we're not doing this like primates who lived for a long time in the middle of the food chain.

And it was only when I was in the safari in Africa. You realize how fucking vulnerable we are?

Because we went. They took us most of the time we were in those like vehicles and you feel like

it's okay even though one time an elephant is charging it out. It was pretty scary. But at one time

we walked outside in the wild. Yeah. But they had a guy with a rifle behind us and a guy with a

rifle in front of us and we had to keep a single file and that no point could we have actually

opened the gap. And if we did they would tell us immediately close the gap and then I realized

well when we were there there's no people with rifles in the front and then it's not about just

like oh I like being hyper included. It's so nice. I love it. It's so comfy and warm and cozy.

It's more like if you're excluded then you can fall prey any second. Yeah, you're dead. Yeah,

it's life or death. And the fact that we're all close to each other here for example now.

So if a predator came I have 66% of survival better than if I were my myself because it's

they're gonna go after you. No, it's gonna go. It's fucked. He's gonna get picked off back there

behind that wall. Oh yeah. No, this way then he won't run out that door and he'll be saying.

And then that's not taking to account the fact that we can warn each other we can try to fight them

off together. We have a 360-grade view right now between our combined. Yeah, so we can alert each

other. We can use all of our senses to help each other. We all of which happens and you see it in

so many different social animals. Even you see it in social birds. Peck, peck, peck all the time

and every once in a while they swoop up. They look for food and then to look to see if they're

gonna be prey. But then if they have more birds around they will swoop up. They will look up a lot

less. They bring computes it into the mix and our brains also compute it into the mix. You're not in

New York but like walking into an empty sombre car in the middle of the night. I don't know if I

will do that. I would go to the sombre car. There's more people or like an empty alley. We instinctively

feel it. It's a safety thing. You intuitively do that math. The birds know like oh there's three of us.

I should be looking up a third of the time even though they don't know that. Yeah, exactly. And

there's a hundred. So it's like oh I only got to look up one percent of the time because it was

hugely advantageous to do that. And then those who didn't get that social monitoring sort of

upgrade they couldn't really compete. There was such a huge advantage because they were constantly

looking up and they were all like eating while they were looking up. And then we get into so much fun

stuff. It's like the birth of line comes from this. There are calls for chimpanzees to say leopard

in this and that. Oh yeah, yeah. And they would make a fake call so they could go fuck the high

status female while the alpha. Yeah, it becomes very intricate in humans and also in other social

and also even in sombre. We have an upgrade to the system because we compare ourselves to others

and there's a whole chapter involved to why we compare and why we can't help it. But

part of our ability to compare it's really about assessing the other other stronger

they're not stronger than me. But also we have this upgrade that we can determine

are they going to work well with me or not? Right. And that ability to compare to evaluate

it's key for us as human. This is theory of mind stuff. Yeah. Yeah, I can think about how you're

thinking. I can assess your thoughts. Yeah. And are you going to be there for me? Yeah, I can get

her a cup of water because she probably has my back and she'll also get me a cup of water later.

It'll be reciprocal. So we have that ability to assess and that's a key part in becoming

more secure. And I even have a questionnaire. There's like, oh, assess how good is your collaboration

and then also rate how close you are to different people and then see those really good

collaborations. Also the people that are closest to you because if not, maybe you want to think

about changing your priorities, your relationship priorities and the process of becoming more secure.

Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, cyberball effect. Right. So the cyberball effect is based on the

cyberball experiment and basically what happens, you're playing a game of catch with two other people

on a video game, a very regimentary video game, two dimensional and all of a sudden they stop throwing

the ball in your direction and the brain hates it and psychologically we hate it.

You see areas of like pain, distress, self scrutiny in the brain, they all sort of like light up.

The amygdala is on fire. Is that what's happening? Parts of the amygdala, other areas of self scrutiny.

It's all like threat and what's happening and why is it happening potentially also pain not

to different from physical pain. It's very, very distressing and psychologically they looked and

they found that certain domains are being affected that I personally was very surprised by it.

Like we feel that life is less meaningful, less in control of our life and less self esteem.

Oh yeah. And less self esteem. So things that I always thought, my self esteem is not related to

or how much control I have over my life or that life is meaningful. What does it matter to who

is interacting with me? Things that come from within, they don't come from within. And they found

the opposite of the cyberball effect when you actually put a person in the middle and now I'm

in the middle and I'm putting the ball to you, you'll throw it back to me, I'm throwing it to you,

throwing it to me, I'm hyperincluded now. So basically you see the opposite, you feel that life is

more meaningful, you feel more self esteem, and you feel greater control in your life. So these

are amazing things that we can create by hyperinclusion, but then the question is how do you create that?

Yeah. How do you create that? So that's when I kept up with this five pillars

carp, yes, the carp, the five pillars of secure life, which consists of consistency,

availability, responsive nets, and then you also have to make sure it's not another,

it's like, oh, I'm consistent, available, and responsive. You have to make sure that the other

person experiences you as reliable and predictable. And that creates carp. So it's like a two-factor

authentication. It's something that happens in a relationship. So if you learn to be carp and you

can also teach others to be carp with you, then you can really create that hyperincluded,

and it's not that hard, it's actually pretty easy. That's what I'm trying to explain to people,

attachment is not a very sophisticated system, it's a monitoring system. Like if you give it what it

needs, remember I told you you are supposed to disappear into the background, you just have to

learn how to strategically give that. So you don't wait until a child is super hungry to feed them,

or super tired to put them to sleep. You kind of like try to anticipate what they need,

and sort of give it to them, and then you can sort of coast. Yeah. It is funny because I'm sure

all the listeners can think about people in their lives who they don't have to think about the

fact that they're there. They're not worried about that relationship. It's just there, it's constantly

you and Aaron. There's people like that. And then you have people that you're like, do I need to

check in on them? Or maybe that's just me because I'm anxious. But people who are more on the fence

of, are they there? Yeah, they're not carp. So what happens is they push your button, they activate

the radar. But I like how you said, we always have these people that we know that they're there,

but what I find is that oftentimes people tend to ignore those people because there's no drama,

we tend to shift more to where the alarm goes off. So let's see where it goes off. You're like

inversely rewarded for being carp sometimes, some relationships. Yeah. And then what happened

in the course of writing this book and the course of this work, I really learned to fall in love with

the secures of this world because there's just so good relationships. And so what I really try to

teach my patients and my students and when I supervise is to really shift the focus and find those

people because we really ignore them instead of like, why is this person not texting me? Oh, but this

person texts me all the time. Yeah. Why should I text them? Yes, exactly. And so you create that

shift. And then what happens is we come to the final tool, which is when you start to pay attention

and it's not in the big things, it's in what I come to call the seemingly insignificant minor

interactions. It's also short for simmies of everyday life. It's in these those little moments

like that glass of water moment that a lot of major change can happen because it rechallenges

your brain. If you have this belief, yes, I really have to work hard for people to interact with

me and need to get their attention. Otherwise, you wouldn't want to be with me. They wouldn't want

to necessarily reach out to me. That's more of the anxious thing. Instead, you get all these

experiences, all these simmies that are counteracting that world belief because really attachment styles

are basically a kind of a world belief, which is set in some ways. And then our brain sift

information based on that world belief. What I'm asking you to do is don't sift information based

on your world belief. Look here to your right or to your left. And there's additional information

that can change your brain with those little simmies. So one of my issues with like all this stuff,

again, is trade officers, positives, there's negatives. But in the mass pop psychology genre of

social media, what I seem to see the most of is identifying somebody, you know, everything is

about another person's problem. You know, if you're with an narcissist and then also from

childhood, yeah, so either childhoods, the blame or these other people are to blame or they have

terrible pathology. I don't find a ton of it about how about you make yourself the thing that you

think you deserve and then just kind of see what happens down river from that for this is priority

number one to make sure your car. I'm so glad you asked that. One of the reason he was so important

for me to write this book because it's just like, I don't see things that way anymore. And sort of

going back to this idea as a child to say like, no, but you can see things differently. So here,

maybe try to look at it from a different angle. These are little tricks to full your biology that

wants to go in a certain way and make it see things a little bit differently so the brain can see,

wow, all things look different. So I'm not even saying like you have to take your accountability.

I'm not even going there. I'm just saying, look, but the thing is anxious and avoid and have to use

those tools very differently. That's where it gets a little bit more tricky. Well, this is where we

get into one of my favorite A-sanes, which is like, it's easier to act your way into thinking different

than think your way into acting different. So maybe explain a little bit what's happening biochemically

and with neurons. And then why does this work with neuroplasticity and neural pathways? What's happened?

Yeah, exactly because we have this surveillance system that was in some way maybe very sensitive

and maybe to opposite them constantly suppressing it. And then it starts ruling our life. If we get

triggered, then two different things happen for anxious and avoid and for secure. The thing is

they don't really get triggered that often. They just don't see a lot of threat. So even maybe I

think there would be the last people to know if someone cheated on them. They're going to say the

signs. It's just like not something that they'll see or even at work that can give you so many

different scenarios. The other day someone emailed me and they said, hey, when do you have a time to

talk? And then my sister said, oh my gosh, you probably got fired. And I said, like, why would you

say that? She just wanted to say when you can talk. Sure enough, she got fired. And then more

research recently have shown that it also affects how we interact with our health co-providers. And

even if we have a chronic illness like pharma malgia, how much pain we're going to be in. And then it

affects how we shop. Secure people don't care so much about. They don't care so much about logos.

Why are you laughing? He doesn't love shopping so much. But you can love fashion, but he's maybe

less about status and more about maybe also about status. I don't want it to be, but it is in the mix.

You're such a good girl. But it's fine. I think I said it from the beginning. About 25% of

population are avoidant. About 20% are anxious. And about 50 something percent are secure. And a

very small percentage are fearful avoidant. These are just like variations on the norm. There's

different studies that show the amazing advantage to have that variability within the population

and then one study where they had like a little smoke come out of a computer in a group of people.

And the anxious ones were the first to notice it. And the avoidance were the first out the door.

And a lot of other people follow. But you can see there can be an advantage. Just like, you know what?

Fuck you. I'm out of here. But I want to go back to what you said about this whole thing on social

media. We're pointing at others. I just think that it's the wrong conversation or the one way of

looking at it because there's this whole potential. And that's the beauty of the science that we all

have these secure people in our lives and secure experiences from our own childhood that we can tap

into and become more secure and the opportunity and the advantages for being more secure in that way.

We can really flourish. I want my patients to flourish and do want them to heal from trauma. And I'm

not saying that's wrong. But I want to take it a step further. I think that this science is

really understanding and combining neuroscience with the attachment really can give people

the opportunity to flourish. I just stumbled upon this chatting with my brother in New York. We

took a trip for three days before Christmas. And we were discussing, there's a lot of good social

science behind. Although I don't believe in the secret, the book, I do believe in an aspect of it,

right? Which is your focus and attention can create a bit of confirmation bias. So if you're

looking towards the future and you're thinking of only the ways you're going to fail, those are the

ones you're going to focus on and you're going to see proof of that more often. Then you will see

proof of a different theory that you're trying to service. So I was talking to my brother. I was

telling him honestly, I'm like, you know, I'm writing this memoir and I feel a bit guilty because

it's really the highlights real of the bad stuff because that's drama. That's everything. That's

a good book. And I said, but when I'm being honest, that probably an all-year-in-ice combined

stuff that might have maybe been 0.2% of our overall waking experience.

Amazing. Actually. And you know, why wouldn't the same premise apply to looking backwards as it

does forward? Like you and I could construct any story we want. We have enough info back there

to come up with any story. And perhaps by us focusing on these things that were no doubt

gnarly, we're kind of excluding all the other stuff that would confirm. No, we actually had a very

blessed, lucky childhood. The way that just described it here is a big part of the essence of

the secure priming therapy. It's really recasting your past from a more secure place and really

looking at the other influences and the other people that were in your life. Even the people

where things are difficult, that's how we started the conversation. I was able to see my part in

it also and really also see other times when actually my father really loved me and gave me

attention and that moment when we were in the hotel lobby, when he threw the coin. Yeah. And

actually that shift is huge for our brain and it can really help us. It really changes also who we

are in the here and now. Remember that narrative and how we create the narrative? It's richer and

it's more true. It's more true. Yeah. And weirdly, I'm dealing with it now. It's really crazy that I

can intellectually understand that and yet I do have this fear of letting that go. I know. I think it's

so interwoven in my core identity that to let go of it would be threatening to my identity.

And we live in the world that's really ruled by Freudian psychology. But everything is because of

these things happen to us in childhood. But actually, the science shows that the attachment styles

that we have in children predicts less than 10% of the attachment styles that we have in the

adult. Whoa. That's a huge. And a lot of what really changes our attachment style happen later.

Well, that's mind blowing. It's counterintuitive and it's encouraging. Completely encouraging because

you can change your attachment style and you can evolve. And that's why actually I thought that

he was fair to write this book because the science shows that you can change it. Yeah. I want to

know a little bit about neural pathways. What happens when you dwell on those five, you know, for me,

I had two terrible stepdads. I had four great teachers. Why aren't I looking at the four great

teachers? I was actually going to agree with that example because I listened. I did my homework.

Such a good student. Yeah, I'm telling you. I feel like he used AI though to scan all of them.

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Actually, he was fascinating. I have to say. And I love

the story of the math teacher who recognized he was geometry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had the little

blocks and we were like, and then he asked you to sort of teach the other students. Change my life.

Something that happened in a moment, someone did something really good by my brain. He changed my

brain to a different trajectory and made me really see myself differently and think about things

differently. Is the muscle analogy not good or is it good? When we use certain thoughts that

emboldened certain pathways, oh, definitely. It describes it really, really well because it happens

our current belief is that our memories lie in our synapses in the structure of the synapses.

Usually, LTP, long term, potentiation is like electrophysiology that we strengthen memories.

The synapses get tighter and there's more, even there's actin growing in the synapses to kind of like

build the structure. So that's why the analogy of the muscles, the actual molecules,

some of them are the same molecules. And then when memories weaken, which is very important part

because we also have to forget and forgetting is an active process in the brain, an active molecular

process. Synapses actually weaken, they get further apart. That's why I brought up the whole

seamy thing because people, when you go to therapy, I think I have to talk about my childhood,

really difficult events that happened to me, but really the avenue for change in the brain

are through those seamy's because every interaction gives you a moment a chance to rewrite

something, to strengthen those synapses or weaken those synapses. And that's basically the synaptic

plasticity idea. It's such an empowering way to look at it all because you have absolutely no

sway over what happened to you 30 years ago. That's done. But also, I mean, if you think about it,

we're social species. We're not particularly strong animals. We're actually pretty weak.

We live in every niche on this planet just because our ability to sort of collaborate and

cooperate so well. So it doesn't really make sense that we'll say like stuck in something that

happened to us really early on. What advantage is there in that at all? It's just like it doesn't

make sense to me. We need to be socially versatile. And we are extremely socially versatile.

Much, much more than we give us credit for because of that Freudian biology. You're so right.

When it hits me, the mouse is I'll be watching some documentary on chimpanzees. And you know,

they're probably our closest thing to look at. Oh, yeah, they are. And these little babies,

they get fucked up. These alpha males will come through and they'll be thrashing the jungle.

They'll have throw 130 feet and everything. And I just am watching that. And I'm like, it's curious

to me that they're so resilient. They go to what we would call capital T trauma almost daily.

Oh, yeah. Their lives are vicious. They still persevere. Right. And I look at that and I'll go

as much as I do like honoring what has happened to us, we also have forgotten how fucking resilient.

We are. You can't live with this many members of a group and not be traumatized at that time.

So that's good for you to do that chapter 10 about causalities. Yes, I've circled that one.

I wanted to talk about that. And you want to tell the story of Anne, a woman who has a child

had terrible separation anxiety. But unfortunately for her, her dad had to travel a lot for business.

And so whenever he would travel, she would sort of cry and really sort of hold on to his leg.

And like, really, don't go, don't go. And then she would have a hard time falling asleep.

They would try to reassure her, but he had to go for work. But they didn't know she had

suppression anxiety. There's actually good treatment for suppression anxiety in children.

He says like four to six percent maybe have that. Yeah, it's very prevalent. Eventually she learned

it's not going to work. And I'm just going to bottle it up. They thought it was over like that she

was fine. In many cases, it does go away. So it wasn't unreasonable to think that. But she really

kept that fear inside for many, many years and she couldn't fall asleep. She just kept the brave

face. And then when she was an adult, she had a really hard time in relationships.

She would be in a relationship, but she would always want to leave. Every day was like,

should I stay or should I leave? Should I stay? And she would keep even boxes packed because no,

no, no, I shouldn't pack them because I'm going to leave. And that happened in several relationships.

She was afraid they were going to leave. Like she was trying to get ahead of it.

She didn't feel any safe. And like, she's just like, no, this doesn't feel right to me.

I don't know what's going to happen here. This doesn't feel right to me. I don't know if I belong here.

Is this right thing for me or is it not the right thing for me? And so as someone who

learned psychology and learned to do therapy, then you said, well, because as a child, even though

your parents were loving and cared about you, still there was that basic experience that relationships

are dangerous, relationships are source of pain and anguish. So I'm going to be very careful

I'm going to approach this relationship. And the truth is, I would have given this explanation,

and I would have stood by that explanation until I became a scientist. And once I became a scientist,

I said, wait a second, when you're a scientist, finding causality is that's the holy grail of

scientific discovery. That's so hard to do. Did you explain the difference between correlation

and causality? I think people think they're experiencing causality. We think in causality,

but oftentimes people find things actually correlated or confound. The best example, because I love

that example when you talked about how you came from a family of little means. So you have to sort

of fend for yourself and you have to sort of make sure that you're taking what you need. And so

the best example is that marshmallow test that has been disproven. Oh, yes, it's been disproven.

Milk, who did marshmallow? Oh, no, I don't know. They tried to replicate it and was completely

disproved. Come on. This is an exclusive. What tell me? They tell everyone. Yeah. So the marshmallow

test, they took children and they put a marshmallow in front of them and they told them, if you wait

for certain time, then when we get back, you'll get two. And so they waited certain time and some

kids were able to wait. They got two and some weren't able to wait. You can see them like sitting

on their hands, singing, trying to sort of distract themselves. And then they found that those

kids who didn't have that impulse control, then they didn't wait. They didn't fair as well,

later in life as the kids who had better impulse control. And there was a whole theory about

impulse control and how good it is and how important it is and that was all of that.

Law and behold, they did a larger study with a larger cohort and they didn't find any of that

effect. Interesting. And not only that, they found that the original studies were confounded by

socioeconomic status. Oh. So of course, it would make sense if you could come from a

lower socioeconomic status to jump at that marshmallow and eat it. Yeah, there ain't no two coming back.

Yes. Exactly. Yeah. That's why everybody knows that socioeconomic status is the biggest

predict. Yes. Oh my god. They've been lying. That's the whole story. Thousands of books written

on the shoulders of the marshmallow. But that's the beauty of science when I work with single

molecules. I can give you a standing example. I worked with mice and appellizia, much simpler

animals, even those when we think we found causality at some point they thought PKM Zeta,

it's like a molecule. That's their reason why we have long term memory. It's responsible for

long term memory. There's a big splash in science paper and everybody believed that and they

gave this medication that inhibited PKM Zeta. They could erase memories, prevent them from happening,

amazing. And it's all done in mice. Very simple, fear memory stuff. Several years later,

another study came out in nature, sort of science rival. It's like, no, sorry, we actually were able

to knock out PKM Zeta from mice. They remember perfectly well. And not only that, we gave them the

medication that you thought and they don't have PKM Zeta, which they thought was specific. It did

disrupt their memory and that medication is not specific. It actually completely, I'll just

say it in a way that will make it's more simple. It completely fucks up the brain. So that's why

they didn't have it. It's not a simple app to bring exactly of which memories apart. Yes,

exactly. Something like that. Yeah, like we hit them in the head with a club.

They connect us to memory. Exactly. Something of that, yes, basically. So even a single molecule

in simple animals is so hard to establish causality. How can I really stand behind such causal

inferences? Like in mice, even if you take them, if you expose them to a bully, I don't know how long

they put them there, and they beat them up. And then sometimes some of them, I think maybe 50%

will really suffer and develop symptoms of depression anxiety. Another 50% will completely,

like, nothing happened. Right. So we don't know that's a simpler animal and a much more controlled

environment. You still don't know. My therapist actively does not like talking about the past.

Because a lot of the evidence-based therapies really focused on the here and now. They really

evidence-based therapies for depression or anxiety. And I really try to create something that will

help people become more secure while focusing on the here and now while creating these small

interactions that gives your band another chance. Yeah. Exactly.

Stay tuned for more armchair expert. If you dare, we are supported by skims. You know what I was

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This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. So we're in March, which means it's a moment to celebrate

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Okay, so let's talk about secure mode and what life actually looks like daily.

Oh, we didn't finish Am. What do we do with Am? When I became a scientist, like, yeah,

I mean, I can get that story and it's good, but it's not fact. I mean, you can think about it as

a narrative that can potentially help people. And I can say, you know, maybe there are echoes

from the past, which is fine. But the truth is, we can work into here and now to really instill

meaningful changes that will really help you. And that's what we did. Luckily, she had a very secure

partner. That's always good because that's not like the big first change because they're like,

I told you, I fell in love with the secures of this world because they're like having a built-in

relationship coach in their relationship. It can be in friendships, in romantic relationships,

it can be at work. It can be in so many different areas of our life. So those relationships are

really, really important. And then it didn't take it personally. And it's easier for secures not

to take things personally because they don't sense danger. So it's like, it's easier. And so, yeah,

I understand this is something that comes up. And so she was able to learn to open up to him and

talk to him about her fears. And then slowly to unpack the boxes, all the angst that prevented her

started to sort of melt away. And it worked really well. But it worked in the here and now. And it

really didn't depend so much on understanding the past. Yeah. But there is something to be said

about recalling past events in therapy or in general with even with friends. What actually does

happen is an opportunity to rewrite your memories. You're recalling something. And what we now

know is that from a neuroscience perspective, when we recall a memory, we, to some degree,

disrupt it. We know it in like in animal models. When they recall memory, you can prevent a new

protein synthesis and maybe getting too technical, but they're new protein synthesis in order for

long term memory to solidify. You need new protein synthesis. You completely erase their memories.

So basically, by recalling something, you disrupt the memory and you have a chance to not just

create a causal connection. I think it's actually more powerful to change the actual memory, to

edit it, to suit you more now, to where you're now. That's why every once in a moment of memories of

the same experience are very different. Very different. They're thinking about it and they're

changing. Constantly editing. Constantly and can be affected by how other people talk to you about

it, how you recall it. Memory is very vulnerable in a good way, I think. I'm with you and I am

concerned about modern psychology for all the reasons we're listening. One thing I found about

going through my past when I actually did real therapy starting five years ago, I guess, I was telling

these stories that I had told a million times. But in this context with this man, I do believe I was

feeling the emotions attached to those feelings that I had never let myself feel and I feel like

I got to actually cry when I was telling the story for the first time and I felt like I was

allowing myself to experience and grieve for something I just never made space for because I

thought it might have killed me. So for me, I felt like there was utility and then I had delayed

the emotional response to some of these things for so long and that. Once I had the emotional

response, they got smaller. I knew somehow on the other side of that door was crying and I was

just not going to go there. And then once I did that part, I did feel like it liberated me to go

forward. Completely. So that's the second. The first part is the sort of re-editing those memories

and the second part is that when you sit together with someone that you trust and how often do we

get to talk about those really difficult moments or intimate moments and recall them with someone

that you fully trust, that you have a very unique therapeutic relationship is unlike any other

relationship in the world that you can open up and they're there just to listen and to help you

and to understand you. And if you feel that connection, they give you the secure base to be able

to process some of the information and really change it in a way that now actually feels more secure.

So that's the thing and actually a lot of studies show that doesn't really matter so much the

modality of the treatment. You know there's CBT, there's IPT, there's all these different types

of treatments, but actually it's more about the fit with the therapist. So again we come back to

the attachment thing. Exactly. How well do you feel that you connect with someone and how much

attachment is powerful? I like to say that attachment is both of the base of suffering and healing

from suffering because remember the strange situation, how effective it can be in regulating

our emotions. So we have an attachment hierarchy in our head, we all have it. And I know that if

something bad happens to me, I know exactly who's number one I'm going to go to, who's number two,

you see your old nodding because you know too. I know exactly who to go to and that's very important

for our brain. And then if I'm securely attached to them most of the time, a single word from them

or a sentence or even a hug will calm me down immediately. There's just no Xanax or clonopin in

this world that can be as powerful. And no wonder because it works on so many different neurotransmitters

altogether like opiates, oxytocin, dopamine, you name it, it works on those and other things that

we haven't discovered yet. It's so powerful but the opposite is also true. Insecure attachments can

be the most powerful instigator of emotional distress. So attachment is the basis of both

suffering and healing from suffering. And part of the reason why I wrote this book is kind of like

to really try to shift people towards getting better and making things work for you better.

Then being stuck in that place where your brain constantly surveying and feels that danger.

So interesting. Another part of the book talks about biological diversity and hidden

sparks of talent. So please tell us about that. When you become a molecular neuroscientist, you see

the normity of molecular diversity that we all possess and how different it is. And we know it

because we all look a little bit different and we all have these different abilities even in just

in the way that we can flip our tongue or like even with our fingers, all these different things.

But also it goes way, way further than that. Evolution loves diversity. It's really one of the best

survival mechanisms. But we don't really fully appreciate how diverse we are and also in our

talents. And not only that, oftentimes, especially people with insecure attachment, sometimes

their biggest talents they perceive as impediment. But here, like a hidden spark of talent that someone

actually identified was your math ability. And so when you lean into that ability, how it can

really profoundly change your world. Those dominoes, if I'm actually good at math, maybe I can be good

at other things. Right. And so I find that when people can learn to identify both theirs and other

people's hidden sparks of talent, it really changes the way that they look at others and themselves.

So for example, if someone is actually very, very generous, but they give to everyone, but his wife

doesn't like that he gives to everyone. This also gives to you also a lot too. You can't just

decide, oh, I want him to be generous to me and sort of mean to everybody else. It doesn't work

that way. It's almost like a hidden spark of talent. So when you learn to look at things that way,

you say, oh, wow, actually, I see that. I don't have to resent that he gives and he gives and he

gives. I'm also the recipient of that giving. So I can see that as a hidden spark of biological talent.

As you said, it's a system that's scanning how available someone is. So you could misread that

as a lack of availability because they're available for other people. Yes, exactly. Now you're just

like talking from the attachment logic because that, oh, am I being left out? Scarcity. But that's

where we can really learn to transcend our biology using metacognition, basically. So metacognition,

how we think about our thoughts. So it's like, wait a second. Yeah, I mean, I have that type of

effect. Am I feeling, but hey, look at and that's where it also. It's good to have. I call that

secure people in your life, a secure body where like if you get upset and that's what I do like in

the secure therapy, I do sort of real time sometimes with text. You also, the recipient of it and

it actually doesn't take away from you and you teach them a secure way of looking at things that

secure love is actually bound to full and not scarce. Remember, secure relationships are not about

being attached to the hip. All it needs is like a little bit more acknowledgement. So a little

bit more texting. The other thing is it's actually said, well, I wish you were here. Well, actually,

also, remember that hyper connectedness to always given opportunity if possible to include.

Oh, it's too bad you can't come. Everybody talked about you. Everybody mentioned you. So there's

psychological way of including people, even if they're not there. Yeah. Everybody talked about

you. Oh, my God. Everybody mentioned like, how come and then even in the middle of the dinner,

hey, this food you would have loved it. So like you include it, even if you're not there.

It's easy to do it. Yeah, I feel like just telling people you miss them is so huge because I'm

thinking about you. I know you're not here. I'm thinking about you. Exactly. A lovely way to include

it. Yeah. Was there anything I've left out that you would want to cover? I don't know if actually

actually really defined. I should have done it. I always tell people like put myself on the head,

like I should define those attachment styles early on. Should I define it? Just in case if you

wanted to do it, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it also do with how comfortable we feel with intimacy

and closeness, but also how sensitive radar we have to potential danger in your relationship.

So if we have an anxious attachment style, we love closeness and intimacy, but we also have a

very sensitive radar to a potential danger. If someone doesn't become available, we notice it

and that can lead to thoughts of like being rejected, taking things personally. So that's the

anxious attachment. Then secure attachments are people who are warm and loving and they love a

lot of closeness as much as you can give them, but they're also not sensitive to danger in their

relationship. So if you don't give them that much closeness, they're fine with it too. They just

don't see, oh my god, something is wrong. They don't like me anymore. No, it just goes over their head.

So that's secure attachment and people who haven't avoid an attachment style, they also

want relationships because we're social species, but they just don't feel too comfortable with

too much closeness. They want you, but they want you from a little bit of a distance. And so they

find ways of creating that distance so they can feel more comfortable. What would that look like?

Because when you say the anxious attachment, I am meanantly, I think we all can, you can think

of like your big friendship group and you can think of the ones that are like really upset

monitoring when they've been invited, when they've not. And I mean, this is a brag, but it's like,

I don't notice that, right? Like I don't notice on Instagram. It doesn't even cross my mind.

So to me, that's a very obvious example. So what does the avoidant one look like?

I'm glad that you said that you don't notice that because secures don't notice it often

time, but if they're asked to do it, they will do it. Yeah, avoidance, they have a harder time

with it because they have this worldview that you have to be independent, you have to be self-reliant,

and they are to themselves, but they don't understand, like we said, they're about 25% of the

population. They don't understand that they're the minority. They're not the majority. Most people

need other people to help when they're in time of need when they come to you. So when you come

to them in time of need, it's like, what do you want for me to care of it? But then they'll

actually triggers your, even more. It's like, no, no, now you've become the center of their

problem. I'm coming for help and you're not helping me. They forget about the bad thing that

happens to them, and now you're the bad thing that's happened to them. So they fall into these

constant traps unknowingly often, not knowing how to manage, like, no, you're the minority

report. You need to understand that when people come to you, they can't deal with it on their own,

but that's one thing. The other thing sometimes they create a lot of closeness. Well, they spend

really amazing weekend together. Everything is very intense and fun. And then comes Monday,

and they need their time. Okay, we've had enough, right? They have this idea that they can

carry it forward, like credit, but attachment doesn't work that way. It's a radar.

Exactly. And so they actually disappear. They do the opposite of what they intended to do.

They actually increase the change that dealt that. Now, you actually even more, what's happening?

Why are you not answering? It feels like love bombing. Yeah, they don't understand what's

happening. Yeah. Like why are you disappearing all of a sudden? So remember, the consistency

available, responsive, they don't even understand what's happening. They're like, yeah, don't you feel

that? Yeah. And then the last thing that happens is that sometimes when they get too close to

quickly, they don't pace themselves because they're kind of like, no, I want this to happen. I

wanted to work now. I've looked for all these people, and it doesn't work. And now I wanted to,

they get very close real fast because I think all the other people that I met, they weren't the one.

This person going to be one, I may just swoop in and going like full force to make it work,

but that's exactly what they don't need to do because the problem is not that they weren't into

that person. They were into all these other people. The problem is that there's too much

closeness for comfort. And then they have these deactivating strategies like, I don't know if I like

this person, I don't like how they chew. I like to start all these little things that they just

had to see. Yeah, there's these deactivating strategies. They have to learn to pace themselves

and they have to learn not to get, I call it the closeness overdose because then they're going

to turn like, no, this is suffocating. I don't want you anymore. And then again, they create

this sort of push pull. So you can teach them how to sort of engage in more carp scene-y's,

basically. Yeah. Did you want to say that one of your criticisms of your own book attached would

be that you didn't necessarily give the avoidance? I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah, the avoidant

group as much compassion as maybe they deserve. I feel this is my like amends, but it's not entirely my

fault. This book in line is definitely my amends to the avoidance and not just mine. I have to say

also just a research in general because research is also biased and the question that people ask

are biased. And I feel that in this book, I really present a much more biological explanation of

avoidance, not necessarily, you know, again, blaming them mothers like that the euro parents were

not responsive to you. I don't think that's the case. And I really make a strong case of it,

but I really think that we presented the data, the science and the show, they have a wondering

eye. They don't take care of you so well if you're sick. And so we just wrote it out there. But

then over the years working with avoidance. They laughing at me. Yeah. Yeah. It's laughing at me.

When someone gets sick, I'm like, just go deal with it, man. I do. Yeah, we all get sick. You see

I was sick too, but I didn't fucking bother you with it. Yeah, exactly because they don't.

They don't bother people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm so guilty of it. What's happening

biological with me? So biologically, I give an example in the book of sea elegance,

which is like a tiny warm than your scientist's love because they have, again, huge neurons.

They can be manipulated and experimented on. So in sea elegance, they found that they have two

types of feeding behavior, solitary feeding behavior, and social feeding behavior. And so they eat

E. coli. Thank God. We don't want to. I know. So when the social ones, they detect E. coli,

you see like a whole pile of worms of voracial seed eating. And then I'm sorry, but it's important

because the solitary one, they've won swims in the other direction. They swim the other way.

They're chemitactically repelled by the other worms, and it's a change in a single amino acid,

in a single protein. They can switch solitary to social and vice versa. So the case that I'm

trying to make is that this preference for closeness and distance. A lot of it is also biologically

driven. And we can see it everywhere around us, like even you can see in pets. Some people

say some dogs are like cats. They don't like to be that close. They actually will stay away.

Like, okay, I like you from a distance. Some cats will stick to you and they actually are not that

separate as you would think. You can see it in birds and you can see it in people. Some people

feel more comfortable with more closeness. And there's a big, big, big spectrum. But if you can

also focus on the hearing out and make these changes, that it can really lead us to being secure

mode. It's a way to flourish in the world, to feel safe, to not worry all the time. It's so much so,

and that's kind of like chapter four in the book. I write about energy and the brain because you

really have to understand that the brain is a huge energy guzzler. It can't really get reinforcements.

It can only deal with the amount of energy that it gets. It can't increase the blood flow all of a

sudden, like our muscle scanner when we eat. That's not possible for the brain because it's encased

in the skull and the pressure will mount and we'll have a bleed. So you get the amount of energy

that you get, which is 20%, which is a huge amount. The brain is 2%, but it's taken 20% in the

children even more than five year olds. It's like 50%. It's kind of crazy. And then all that you

can do is you can divert energy from one area to the brain to the other. So if you feel safer,

and especially those prefrontal areas that we think and abstract and create, these are the ones

that are most energy heavy. So when you create a safer, like a secure mode environment for yourself,

you can free up that energy to sort of be diverted more to thinking, like the child in this strange

situation, like playing, doing things. It's not just about, oh, this is nice to me. I don't really

have to worry about what the other person is doing. It's really more about this freeze up energy

to actually achieve more. Yeah. And then the last thing and this is now stemming from immediate

defensiveness. Obviously, it's also, I think, tempting for us to label ourselves one thing across

all domains, right? So it's like I could be avoidant in caregiving of an illness. And then if you

call me for AA, I've got unlimited time for you. I think that's the promising part of this whole

book, our versatility and our ability to sort of like, to change, to understand, to accept certain

things and also knowing. So if you're not such a great person, when you get sick, then why shouldn't I

call someone else? No, I'm serious. Why does one person have to do everything? Right, right,

right. Doesn't make any sense. Yeah, yeah. Okay, great. I mean, this is awesome. Please,

everyone check out Secure the Revolutionary Guide to creating a Secure Life. This is just so

encouraging and hopeful and I really appreciate it. Thanks so much for coming. Yeah, thanks.

Yeah, it was fun, actually. Oh, it's nervous about it. I enjoyed it. We aim to be fun. All right, be well.

We hope you enjoyed this episode. Unfortunately, they made some mistakes.

When's Mom and Dad arrive? They land at like 340. Okay, like 530. LAX. There's no good Burbank.

Which is sad. We got to expand Burbank. I know, but only to the destinations we want. Yeah,

because then it's going to become the same situation, which we don't. I will support an Atlanta

route if you support an Asheville route. Yeah, there is a Nashville. They had one flight, one time

to Atlanta at a Burbank. Was single flight in the history? Yes, Cali and I took it home for Christmas.

Was it air came out? No, it was Delta. It was Delta. Yeah, and it was like a lot of years ago,

they tried it, I guess they decided it. I'm not going to call them out, but I am going to say what

is really weird is how much these airlines jockey for quality. If I go back 15 years ago,

what I would have listed is the best quality airline. The cleanest, most up-to-date, everything,

that has shuffled dramatically. I don't really understand that. I want to know what forces make

these ones that were kind of good, just tumble. I guess it's management. I'll just say,

someone at Delta has turned that thing into a real wonderful airline. It's a great air.

When I used up to fly it non-stop, they absorb Northwest. Right. I always had to fly

Northwest because Detroit was a hub for Northwest. Basically, the Northwest loved to fly anywhere

where you might get a snowed in and have to get a hotel room. Yeah. But you know, it was just,

it wasn't the whatever. Well, Delta probably is, they took in, they're like, we're making it good.

I just want to tip my hand to them. They're not a sponsor. I want to tip my hand. They have really

up to their game, I think. They're not a sponsor, but they are my preferred airline. Except we did

fly Emirates to India and that was nice. It was really nice. That was nice. That was really,

really nice. Are you excited about anything? It's a very exciting time for me. Oh, go ahead.

MotoGP returned last weekend. So we had our first race of the year after four months layoff.

Informing the ones been gone for three and a half months, they've been in there,

winter break. Right. That returns this weekend. So I have, I'm coming out of my

three or four month fast of racing and I'm pretty excited about it. That's fun. Knowing that,

you don't have something like this, right? Where it's multiple events over the course of a weekend.

And I may or may not partake in all of them, but just knowing if I wanted, there's a lot of

stuff on Friday I could check in with Saturday's a big day. And then of course the race on Sunday.

That is the power of having something to look forward to.

Is Jackie. Yes, that's huge. Speaking of that, we really dropped the ball on the Olympics this year.

We didn't watch it. We didn't talk about it. We didn't do anything. That's upsetting.

And you know, it was, I read a thing that it was the most viewed Olympics in like 16 years or something.

It was? I was a little shocked to see that no, it was a hugely successful and watched Olympics.

I'm surprised by that too because I don't, not because I wasn't interested, but because no one I

knew was talking about it at all. And even on podcasts and stuff, I wasn't like hearing about it.

I tried, right? I was in Miami when they kicked off. Aaron and I were excited to consume some

Olympics and do some napping while we did that. Because it's good napping material. Because there's

a lot of down time. It's like someone does a run and you hear a lot of talks, you wait for scores,

whatever. And so when I, this is terrible, dude, man. But when I checked in, I was having this

feeling of like, because I was watching on YouTube TV, right? So I can see every single thing that's

happening. It's all there. And I'm like, did they take some events out of the winter Olympics?

Like, what is it? I like, I liked snowboarding, AKA Sean White. I loved watching him perform

every year. That was an exciting thing. But I'm watching like the first thing I watch was people

cross-country scheme for like three hours. I was on my face. I was like, I don't know. And then

another one was like, they're kind of cross-country scheme. But there's a little bit of downhill. I was

like, still not very hair-raising. And I was like, what is my, I don't know. I got confused. And

then I just never went back. Sure. I like ice skating. Right. A lot. But I kind of even forgot about ice

skating. I was getting as the main one for me. Yeah. I did watch a couple clips. And there was a

whole story about this, this Olympian who was in the Olympics, maybe a couple Olympics ago. And then

she was really, really young and was mistreated. And I was like, you know what? I'm like, not doing

this anymore. She took life back into her own hands. Yeah. Good personal story. Yeah. And then

she's back on her own, like, you know, two feet on the ice. Yeah. And she won. Oh, great. And

it's like, great. And normally I'd be so into all of that. But yeah. I don't know what happened.

I don't either. But I was, I was, I was saddened that I wasn't interested in it. Hockey was fun

this, this year. There we go. Rob, thanks. Yeah. That's what I should have been watching. Hockey was

men and women, US one. Yeah. That's right. I did hear about that. Boys and girls in overtime.

The first time you asked me Canada since, yes, they all that cool. And like, and I take away everything

I just said. Well, no, you can't, you can't take away that you didn't care. I'm like, either

did I and I don't know why? My critique would have been to start day one with some more exciting

stuff than the cross country thing for three hours, maybe. But I bet there are people who are

riveted by cross country skiing course. There there are. And there's people that watch the walk,

the competitive walking. Yeah, there's people, there's, there's a lid for every pot. Yeah.

I forgot to tell you the other day that something weird happened. I almost got another person's car.

Oh, tell me. It was strange. I was leaving a place with Jess. It was at night and I bad eyes.

And I was a little sick. I don't know if that is anything to do with it. But we're walking and

I start to get in his car. And he was like, that's not mine. And I was like, oh,

silly me. Yeah, silly me. And then I'm walking up further. And you know, there's his car with the

light like he had. It's flashing the light. Yeah, he had unlocked it. So the lights come on.

And so I go to get in the car. And then there's a man standing there and he says, that's my car.

And I'm like, oh, oh, oh, my God. I'm so sorry. And I over. Yeah, I look over. And Jess is

across the street. You're on the wrong side of the street, Monica. Well, we were both on the

wrong side. And then in that interim time when I saw the flashing lights and thought that was his,

he had crossed. Were you tipsy? It was not that. It was really not that. And I was like, what's

going on? Yeah, because you lost me at wrong side of the street. Well, I think like you should

have your bearings of what side of the street you guys parked on. I get, I mean, I'm not very

good at that. I don't know. We were both walking on that side for a while, like down the sidewalk.

And then he just crossed in the middle where the car was, I guess. No, no, this, he dropped me off

to get in line. Okay. See, I knew there was an explanation. I mean, I remember what side of the

street you parked on. That's that's alarming. Okay. That is something that might happen to me,

just FYI. I'm not going to directions. I'm not paying that much attention. If I'm not driving,

right, right. But he did drop me off to get in line. So I did not muscle memory know where the

car was parked. That type of thing. Well, that explains that. Yeah, but it was still. Otherwise,

you're in Strokeville. Right, right, right, right. Well, anyway, I just, he was right there. And he

was like, um, that's my car. I was like, Oh, my God. I'm so sorry. Next year's at your car,

and I at the side night, oh, nice. It needs a wash. Is that what you were thinking? Nope. Okay,

it really needs a wash. I just thought, look, these two hands, some cars. Yeah. Great, very beautiful

car. What are your plans with mom and dad? Yeah, my parents are coming today. I'm doing a tour of

the rape treatment center. It's not funny. Okay. Well, you're laughing pretty hard. It's not funny.

I'm not just for the record. It's not funny at all. Right. But I am, I had planned to do that for

a while. Okay. And I was like, Oh, I can't cancel it. Like, that's for one bad. Yeah.

And two, I want to do it. And the, but it's like, I don't know that my parents. That might not be for

them. Yeah, I don't know. It's like a fun year on vacation. Let's go to the. Let's go tour the

rape treatment center. Right. Yeah. I don't. And is it psychological treatment? That's what they're

offering or? No, they offer visit. Like, it's like. Great kits. Yeah. Like, it's kind of like

instead of going to a hospital, you can go to the rape treatment center. Oh, great. Yeah. Yeah.

And get your exam. And, and there is like psychological resources and legal resources and things.

And it's, um, it's a really cool thing. So, uh, I, I'm going to do that. But I think I'll probably

leave them at home for that. Yeah. Let them, you know, lounge around the house a little bit.

Maybe that's when I'll take your dad out for a beer and ask him about his previous girlfriends.

I forgot my objective for this trip. Find out about past lovers for your parents. Right.

I said I was going to ask them. Yeah. They're dating history. I'm not sure. We're going to have time for

that. Um, yeah. So I think that's really, we're just going to like be there's, they're very,

very excited to see the house and stay in the house. Because normally my apartment was so small,

you know, they, they said in a hotel when they came to visit. And they would just come in

and get ready and y'all leave to go somewhere. Yeah. Exactly. Now your mom can watch her YouTube.

Should she will. Yeah. She's got what she's uh, what she's got her fangs into right now. I wonder,

I mean, is there any trials going on? Uh, I mean, I'm sure she is very knowledgeable on everything

that's going on with Epstein. Sure, sure, sure. So that's probably the main, the main thing she's

consuming right now would be my guess. Yeah. But I don't really know. I will find out. Yeah.

And yeah, and they'll get to like go make their coffees and stuff and it'll be really nice.

It'll be really nice to have them. I did my final walk through of the apartment today.

To turn it back over. Yeah. What's that experience like? Um, it was good. I mean, it was good. It was

sad. It's sad to say bye to something and the chapter. Yeah. It was also weird because

empty and I haven't seen it like that since I got it. And I was like, Oh, yeah. Like I remember

it going to see it. Yeah. Um, Lincoln came with me. I remember. Oh, for the first walkthrough.

Yeah. To go check it out. Um, and that was a long time ago. I thought, I know you already know

this, but I was sad to leave our old house. Yeah. And I thought I was going to be really sad.

And then we left and I've never thought about it again. I've been shocked with the fact that I

don't think about it at all. Yeah. Cause it held a very, it's like the epicenter of some of my

favorite memories and experiences. Yeah. I have such warm feelings about it, but I don't

at all miss it. And I thought I was going to. But don't you think that's kind of in keeping with

my personality? Yeah. Um, cause like same thing with relationships. Like you still have an affinity.

You like love the time and the people, but you're not like an, you're not like missing them.

I mean, you've told me that maybe that's incorrect, but elaborate. Give me an example.

Uh, I guess that's just something you've told me that like you don't yearn for any past

relationship that it's like, I don't yearn to be romantically involved, romantically involved with

any of my exes, but I still love being friends with them. Yeah. That's what I just said. You

still love the people that you're saying that when I walk away that they're dead to me and I

don't ever think. No, but that you, you still have an affinity and a fondness and there's like

all these positive associations and you, you love them as people. But yeah, you're not like,

oh, I don't want to kiss. Well, no, I miss them as friends, but I don't want to kiss them.

I was always saying this in reference to a lot of people have a pattern of hooking up with

exes, right? Which is great. I don't care about that. I'm not suggesting I have a moral position

on it. No, I just have not had that. I've not had a pattern of hooking up with my ex girlfriends.

Yeah. That part to me when we sever has dots. It's over. Yeah. The romantic part.

But the friendship part and the missing them and wanting to connect with them for sure,

I still have that. I'll randomly carry my girlfriend in high school, I was with for like five

years. She will, she knows which she and I love the same kind of music. She'll find a new album

and she'll send it to me. Yeah. And I love it. And then we'll have like seven exchanges about it.

Then I go, oh, carry's still so fond and so engaged in devouring life and finding new things.

And I'm proud of her. She's maintained the essence of who she was when I met her that I found

so appealing about her. Yeah. And then I'll talk to Bri and she's on fire for innumerable things.

I don't have said innumerable, which is questionable. Maybe it's your new word.

I hope not. And I get this swell of excitement that she is still held on to that spark of curiosity.

Yeah. But that's different. That's different than what a lot of people feel.

Like that there's, but I do have what you're saying about objects, which kind of shocks me,

because I have coveted objects so much my whole life. And then when I don't have them,

I don't think about them anymore, which is going a little shocking to me, because I wanted them so

bad or I coveted them so bad. And then when they're gone, I'm like, I don't even really remember

that I cared about objects. That house is a big, big object. It is. And it's like it's symbolic.

It's a marker of your life and your accomplishments. And it can represent so much.

It does. And then I see videos of the kids playing in that little area we had between the kitchen

and the living room. That was like their zone. And I go, oh, yeah, I love sitting on the couch

and watching them be little babies. Yeah. But I don't need to walk back in there. That's the

weird part. Yeah. It wasn't like, I wasn't like, oh, like I wasn't like devastated. But I was like,

yeah, this is like the end of an era. And that's a chapter, and sad. Yeah.

Just when new things started, it's like, yeah, there's no going back. Like there's no, it's just,

it's just a reminder that like time keeps moving. And you can't pause it. You can't go back.

And that's, you know, we have a guest today after this fact check whose book is about consciousness.

Yeah. And so I'm really locked into this book and thinking about life and consciousness.

And yeah, many of the experts that he interviewed for this book tried to explain that like,

thought is there was a traditional way of thinking, which is like,

René Descartes, which is like, I think therefore I am in thoughts are one thought built to

top another. And it's kind of one thing leads to another. And there's other people who think more

like, it's a stream. There's no marker of this thought led to this thought. There's just this,

and they'll never have the same thought or consciousness ever again is a fascinating thing.

And it's what you're saying. It's like, life's moving forward. And it's taking with it everything

that preceded it. And so it can't ever be the same because more things are proceeding it.

And the way we rewrite memories every time we think of them, like your brains evolving nonstop,

your experience on earth is evolving nonstop. And that can feel scary and maybe untethered.

But it is the nature and facts of life. And I think the discomforts when you're fighting that.

Right. I think it's, it's, you can feel untethered, but you're also just reminded of mortality.

It's like, oh, yeah, like that phase is over. Now I'm in this phase. There'll be another.

How many more do I have? Not very, who knows? And we know the ultimate phase.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So, um, but it, and then sort of ding, ding, ding with relationships,

probably like people who do. Hook up with their exes and stuff. Like it's probably more about

that. Like wanting to go back in time as opposed to like, I miss this person. I mean, maybe

obviously there's a million reasons why. But I bet a lot of it is like I, I miss me then. I miss

that time of my life. And that person is connected to that time. So I want to like click into that.

Yeah. And I think yes, that's the Esther thing, which I was like people are cheating on you with

themselves. They want to visit a version of themselves from the past. But I think the easy cycle

to get into with going back to exes is with some time away when you come back, you can revisit the

initial easy uncomplicated phase of it. And that is very pleasurable. But the complications

arise immediately after. Yeah. But I think you succumb to the joy of getting to relive the

the part that was easy, the falling in love part. Yeah. And then I just think quickly it ends up

exactly what it always is. Yeah. And I think that's the cycle that's appealing. It's like, oh,

I want to go back to the original moment. Right. We fell in love and it was so easy. And yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Complicated. Complicated. Should we do some fans?

Stay tuned for more armchair expert. If you dare.

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Okay. A mere attachment. Had you read this book? I mean, this book was wildly popular. So

popular. The original book. I not read it. I just heard so much about it. You have. And I

looked into the theories and stuff. I wasn't aware of the book. I know I was aware that people

were talking about attachment theory a lot. Yeah. But I just assume that's in the same way people

are talking about ADHD or whatever. That that was just the thing we were obsessed with. Like I see.

But I didn't realize there was such a specific origin for it all. Yeah. I find it very intriguing.

You do. Yeah. I talked about it. Yeah. I found myself talking about it a bit. It's just

interesting that we all do have ways of relating to others that are kind of predictable, well-worn.

I thought the thing that I was most interested in is love anything that's counterintuitive,

which is your attachment style as a child has nothing to do with your attachment styles and

at all. Yeah. I would have thought it just led into your permanent. They set this attachment style.

Totally. Yes. Yeah. I thought that too. It made me think about a couple people in my life that

have very secure attachments. Uh-huh. And I was like, huh. Yeah. They don't. They're not threatened.

They're totally just. Not taking stuff personal. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty admirable. Yeah. Okay.

Now he told the story of his dad, like, you know, throwing the penny or the coin when the

president was in town. Oh, uh-huh. Now I was trying to figure out which president it was. And I

can't figure out a mere's age. That's not known on the internet. I didn't. I couldn't. I didn't see it

on the internet. Maybe Rob. Maybe you'll see it. But I didn't see it. So my guess is going to be

in the 90s. Yeah. No public information. Well, how on earth could you be alive? Is it an error

of the internet in your age? Not be known. Is he 50 around there, I think? Because there's a mere

Levine born on April 22nd, 1975. So he would have probably been talking about Reagan or Carter.

If it was in the 80s, but if it was in the 90s, could have been Clinton. But he would have been

more teenager. Right. Versus a little boy. Yeah. I couldn't tell exactly his age. I mean, I guess he

was small enough that he was a little anxious. Uh-huh. Harder visited in 79. So four years old.

Yeah. Four years old if he was born in 75. Maybe. Maybe. Clinton started his visits in 94. Where was he

visiting? Israel. Oh, Israel. The 1980s saw high level diplomatic tension, particularly under Reagan,

with key meetings occurring in DC rather than Israel. Oh. So maybe he didn't really go there.

Right. I'm sure Carter went there. Yeah. He did. He was the great. He was in 79. Yeah. He went to

a bunch of places. Presidents hadn't gone in a long time. He was known for that. I'm Georgia.

I'm peanut farmer. Yep. This has no US president made an official state visit to Israel during the

1980s. It's a Carter 79 and then Clinton in 94. Oh boy. Big gap 14 years. Yeah. We're going to

go with Carter. We're sticking with Carter. That's our final guess. Yeah. Um primates middle of the

food chain. Primates generally occupy the middle of the food chain, acting as both consumers of

plants insects and as prey or larger predators. I wanted to figure out top of the food chain.

If it goes my continent, I'd like to guess. Okay. We can do environment. Okay. You could also do

apex predators and other search. Um apex predators are the are at the top of the food chain. It's the

first thing it says. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So in Africa, that continent, I think it's the lion. And then in

the subcontinent, India, I think it's the tiger. In fact, I think it's the tiger through all of Asia.

Okay. And into Russia, except for the polar bear in the Arctic, I think is the apex predator.

And then I think in the Americas, it's the grizzly bear. Okay. Okay. Although we also have polar

bears in the Americas, but so this and then in South America, I would say it's the jaguar.

All right. Well, this says apex predators are at the top of the food chain, acting as a high

trophic level trophic level with no natural predators in various ecosystems. These include lions,

tigers, polar bears, orcas and great white sharks. Humans are also considered top predators capable

of affecting or being the absolute peak of many food chains. Now this also breaks it down by

environment. Land, lions, tigers, wolves, polar bears, and grizzly bears. Grizzlies.

Ocean, orcas, great white sharks, and leopard seals, air, bald eagles, golden eagles,

and other large raptors. Yeah, raptors. I love raptors. Reptiles, saltwater crocodiles,

and comodo dragons. Tell me about them. I guess you're with us alive. I just have nasty comolo.

Oh, comolo. He loves their stinky mouths. Oh, I guess you can smell them from quite a distance.

That's comodo. Fowl bacteria-laden jaws become poison. Speaking of that, have you noticed like

that there's like somebody in your life who has not good breath? As we've discussed, I'm very

sensitive, hypersensitive, bad breath. But it's like, it's bad, but it's not like, it's not

objectively offensive. Yeah. And so it's like, I kind of think I'm the only one who notices this.

And it's an unexpected person. I'm not going to say, I don't think anyone else thinks this.

I've never been no one's ever said-

Possibly. No one's ever said anything to me, alluding to the fact that that's the case.

And- but yet, it is repetitive for me. It's rough. I mean, I had a friend who I started going

to the movies with. I couldn't- just sitting next to them at the movies all I could smell was their

breath. And I just was like, I can't do it. I blame me, but I couldn't do it. I know.

And I just wonder though if there are moons? Why can't you guys smell when I'm smelling?

I think obviously we all smell different things. And we're sensitive to different odors.

Some- I mean, again, I see people who are in relationships with people who I think have

wretched breath. And I think, well, they can't smell it. Right. There's no way. I know.

Because they're kissing and loving and right. I know. Yeah, I don't think- or they're just not

sensitive to smell. Period. Yeah. Because I just think like, I just can't do a deal breaker for me.

Same. Yeah. But I just wonder also if it's actually more- is breath actually? I mean, maybe there's

obviously halitosis. There's some objective stuff. But maybe the rest of it is just pheromones.

Well, I also think there's certain medical conditions that give you kind of a predictable outcome.

And I'm going to leave it at that. Well, yeah, I just- I just- I was- I was somewhere and I had

already thought it and then it was happening again. What kind of activities you do with the

person? Because there's certain things where it's not an issue. Yeah. And there are others where-

like, again, the movies you're sitting like- Yeah. Your mouths and noses are- are what?

18 inches apart. Right. And so that might be a non-starter. Like, I love this person,

but I'm just not going to go to the movies with them. That's what that was my decision.

Yeah, that's interesting. I am- And then there's also- there's the case too,

or in someone's- they have that. And then they also tend to talk close and you're constantly trying

to keep your distance. And then you wonder if it's obvious. I think the only one I'm

unsympathetic to or unforgiving of is- I think when you're a dentist, you've got to be on it,

like no one's ever been on their breath. Yes, we've talked about this. Because they're in your

nose. They work in your nose. But they normally- they often- the hygienic- That doesn't-

It's been a mess, son. If you've shed breath and you've got a little

paper between there, forget it. That's not- Okay, I have your friend wear a mask.

Just make up a reason why it's cute if they wear a mask. And see, you're still going to smell it.

It's not that strong. That's the thing. It's not like- You're making a mouth out of a mole hell.

I mean, no, I just- I've just noticed it many times. And I just wonder if anyone else

has noticed it. And I don't think they have, which has just led me to believe,

oh, this is something like pheromonal. It's me. You're like, it's me. Yeah. It's-

What's again is possible. Well, it's not me. It's the way I-

It's the way, yeah, my nose perceives. Yeah, I'm smelling an odor here that other people don't

smell. Yes. In which case I'm saying it's you. Well, right. I mean- Like, you're the anomaly.

I'm the anomaly. I think, yeah. Yeah. But I don't actually know. Maybe I'm not. Maybe-

You could ask around. I could ask around. It feels really mean to do that.

Oh, man. I couldn't feel worse for someone who just can't help it. I mean, my God, I really

feel terrible. It's also because it's a specific- it is a specific smell. A note. Yeah, it's a note.

So I know in that case, it is a little pheromonal because it's not like, oh, this person ate

something just that gonna go or something like- They don't smell like a hot dog. They smell like

their body. Yeah. It's interesting. It's very interesting. You should ask if you can smell

their armpits and their groin. This is consistent everywhere. I mean, this is a very-

Do you think people with better, the more secure attachments styles don't smell

always as much? Probably. Maybe. Maybe. I think everything just ticks up. Sure.

When you were listening to all this stuff, did you self-assess as being any part of this spectrum?

Oh, yeah. We talked about it in the- in the episode. I definitely feel like I have an

anxious attachment and you were saying you felt like you did lean a little avoidant.

When I was young, but the more I read about it, I was like, I think I'm secure attachment.

I think that's what I felt in general after learning all about the thing. Yeah.

But then I thought, oh, no, I used to be avoidant. And then I think, yeah, you can change.

Yeah. Just like the stuff I don't take person, like again, back to like the Instagram,

so all this kind of stuff that drives people nuts, that I know that just I don't even think about.

Yeah. We're getting invited to things or all that kind of stuff. I don't. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, we can find out- Is there a test?

Yes. I know I can count on my friends to be there for me if I'm going through a rough time.

Then we got our normals. Agree, strongly. Agree, neutral, disagree, strongly disagree.

Uh, strongly agree. I sometimes feel like I'm not good enough for my loved ones.

Um, strongly disagree. I feel uncomfortable when my friends or family act like they rely on me.

Hmm. What's the middle?

Neutral. Yeah. And then there's disagree and agree. And then strongly agree.

I would say neutral. Okay. Again, that has evolved. Right.

I used to feel burdened by that. Yeah.

And now I feel lucky as much as I feel burdened. So that puts me at neutral.

Okay. I always make the first move but usually become disinterested after I get what I want.

I disagree. Disagree. Yeah.

I know I can be my true self in relationships once I have enough time to get comfortable.

100%. I sometimes hold back on relationships because I feel that if I share too much about myself,

I might get hurt. I wish strongly disagree. I tend to worry that my loved ones don't love me

as much as I love them. Strongly disagree. I consider myself a good friend and a good partner.

Strongly agree. I stay away from long-term relationships.

No, I've had nothing but long-term relationships.

So strongly disagree. Okay. Being alone sometimes scares me.

Uh, strongly disagree. Although, you know, I did, I experienced great boredom last week being alone

on a Saturday night because I had to Christmas doing to play and Lincoln had a play date.

So at first I was like, cool. I have my home night to myself. And then I watched like

three episodes of Fall Out in a Row. And I was like, I want to be with somebody.

I was like, I'm bored with just myself watching this show. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, I am,

I am tragically social. Yeah. Hit me. I like going out with friends and family, but I still value

my personal time and space. I mean, I prefer being out with people than I do by myself,

but I'm not afraid to be myself. I don't know. What does that mean? You do value your personal time

and space. You're always like, why are there so many people here? Why? Oh, space. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So, what does that mean? I agree. I think you agree. Okay. I'll agree. I don't like relying on

others. And that way I avoid getting disappointed. Oh, agree. I find it. You know what?

Strongly agree. Uh-oh. Yeah. I gotta be honest. I think it's too late. Okay. That's fine.

I find it difficult to express love even when I feel it. Strongly disagree. I prefer casual

flings and serious relationships. Disagree. I avoid arguments with my partners,

friends, or family to avoid the chance of losing them. Strongly disagree. Sometimes I want to be

completely alone and then suddenly change to feeling like I need around people. Oh, that just

happens. I agree. I agree. I never make the first move in a potential relationship for fear of

being rejected. Strongly disagree. My friends and family often tell me that they feel like they don't

really know me. Oh, never. Strongly disagree. If my partner went on a trip without me, I'd miss them,

but would ultimately be happy that they're having fun. Strongly agree. A big portion of myself

is deep and self-worth comes from my relationships with other people. Oh, strongly agree. Sometimes when

I feel like I'm getting too close to someone, I get scared and start pushing them away. Strongly disagree.

I feel bad when my loved ones do things without inviting me. Disagree. I trust that the people I love

want what's best for me. The people that love me. I trust that the people I love want what's best for

me. I agree. I much prefer being alone, but I'll attend social engagements if I'm required to.

Disagree. Even when things get tough, I feel confident that my partner will support me and will work

through challenges together. Strongly agree. I often find myself overanalyzing interactions with

my partner, wondering if they truly understand my feelings and intentions. Disagree. Sometimes I

push people away when they get too close, even though deep down I crave connection and intimacy.

Strongly disagree. It's hard for me to relax in relationships because I'm always worrying about

whether my loved ones truly care about me. Strongly disagree. I prefer to keep my emotions to

myself, believing that vulnerability only leads to unnecessary complications and potential

disappointment. Can I go neutral on that one? I enjoy spending time with my friends and family

knowing that we can share both good times and bad times with each other. Strongly agree. It's

really funny to answer these questions in my mind because I have like two different families. Which one

are we talking about? Are we talking about the family I created or the one I was born into? Right.

I feel uncomfortable when people get too emotionally close to me. I value my independence in

personal space. Emotionally dependent on me. That was part of the question. I feel uncomfortable

when people get too emotionally close to me. I value my independence. Okay. I disagree.

Okay. Knowing that I have a strong support system of friends and family gives me the confidence

to tackle life's challenges with optimism and resilience. I disagree. I worry that if I show

vulnerability or express my needs and relationships, I'll end up being rejected or abandoned.

I go neutral. I appreciate the balance between independence and closeness in my relationships,

allowing me to pursue my own interests while still feeling connected to others. Strongly agree.

I often find myself feeling anxious about the state of my relationships, constantly seeking

reassurance from my partner or friends to alleviate my doubts. Strongly disagree. I prefer to

handle my problems on my own rather than relying on others for support or advice. Agree.

Maybe size yeah. My mind often races with thoughts about potential conflicts or misunderstandings

in my relationships, making it difficult to fully enjoy moments of connection without worrying

about the future. Strongly disagree. When I face challenges, I feel reassured knowing that my

friends will offer their support and encouragement without judgment. Neutral. I tend to seek constant

validation from my friends and romantic partners to reassure myself of their love and commitment.

Well, that's a tricky one because I definitely like endless validation, but it's not to reassure

myself that they like me. So I'm going to go neutral. I just enjoy validation. I tend to

downplay the importance of romantic relationships in my life, focusing instead of my individual goals

and interests. Disagree. Despite craving intimacy and connection, I struggle to fully trust others

and often find myself holding back out of fear of being hurt or abandoned. Strongly disagree.

I value the mutual trust and respect in my relationships, which allows me to be my authentic self

without fear of rejection. Strongly agree. But in quality of time, with loved ones,

fills me with a sense of warmth and security, knowing that we have each other's backs no matter what.

Strongly agree. I have a tendency to push people away when they try to get close to me fearing

that allowing them in will only lead to disappointment or betrayal. Strongly disagree.

Despite my efforts, I struggle to shake off the feeling of insecurity that lingers in my mind,

questioning whether I'm truly valued and loved by those closest to me. Disagree.

I find it challenging to open up to others about my innermost thoughts and feelings,

preferring to maintain a sense of distance to protect myself from potential rejection.

Disagree. The fear of rejection or betrayal sometimes prevents me from fully investing in

relationships, leaving me feeling stuck in a cycle of longing for connection while simultaneously

fearing it. Strongly disagree. Independence is important to me and I prioritize maintaining

autonomy in my relationships, often avoiding becoming too reliant on others for emotional

support or validation. Agreed. I have to pay. I'm going to do it.

Don't do it. It's 195. Just a one off. Third tricky. That was smart. They let you do the whole

time. I know. That's a feel betrayed. Is it his website? I don't think so. Oh no. American Express

is not supported. Yeah. I bet people.

Shit. I have to get another. My other card. Wow. Yeah. We have to know.

I think we know. You don't think we know.

Oh, okay. Oh, secure. Your attachment style is secure. Secondary fearful.

The secure attachment style serves as the bedrock for healthy and fulfilling relationships

characterized by a strong sense of trust, emotional security, and a balanced approach

about intimacy and independence. Individuals with the secure attachment style of typically

experienced consistent and responsive caregiving during their early years, fostering a foundational

belief in the availability and reliability of others and times of need. Okay. I guess myself,

this time, my self-assessment. That's right. That's right. Years goes 57.5% secure. 18.2%

fearful. 16.7% dismissive. 7.6% preoccupied. Okay. Interesting. Interesting. Well, that was fun.

Who did the marshmallow test? Walter Michelle. There's another one I've been repeating,

finding out that the marshmallow test isn't real. Yeah. I mean, it's a real test, but the conclusions

aren't. That's right. Yeah. Boy, it's incredible to think how much work has been built on the

shoulders of that. I know. That's not right. Scary a little bit. The human brain consumes roughly

20% of the body's total resting energy, about 260 to 300 calories per day, despite representing

only 2% of body weight. That's it. That's it? Yes. Well, I enjoyed a mirror. Me too. We'll

die with the great mystery of how old he is. Yeah. Anyway, yeah. Me was great. Love you.