**BREAKING** Killer Mom Trial: A New Note, Drama in Jury Room, Yelling in the Courtroom, & a Motion to REMOVE a Juror

0:00This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human I survived nine months in captivity and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the survivor files. Every week I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to the survivor files with the Elizabeth Smart on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus or this random dude is offering the ride on his motorcycle. I choose option B. I'm Julie Pinero and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word Solita, trading the pity for possibility.

1:02Listen to Solita on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. College football will hijack your weekend, ruin your sleep and break your heart. And that's why we make the Sullivan-Berbouk College football show. I'm Ty Hildenbrand. He's Dan Rubinstein. Every week we preview the games that matter in the storylines that are going to ignite your group chat. And you can join us in the aftermath as we react to what happened, why it matters and how the sport went completely bonkers yet again. Listen to the Solid Verbal College football show on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Bobby Beones. Join me, Informer, NFL Quarterback Matt Castle. Every Wednesday, on our podcast, lots to say with me, Bobby Beones and Matt Castle. You're in training camp and the rookie quarterback has one good throwing session in front of the media. Suddenly, everybody online says he should start over you week one.

2:03How do you handle this? You just go back out to practice the next day and wait for him to mess up. Listen to lots to say with Bobby Beones and Matt Castle on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's up? I'm Tony Gonzalez. And I'm October Gonzalez, but you can call me Toby. We want you to join us on our new podcast No Safe Words with October and Tony Gonzalez. Where we get real about marriage, parenthood, sex, divorce and all the nitty gritty stuff we all think about, but just don't say out loud. You're probably just going to be from rich guy and he's going to whisk you away and... Oh. Listen to No Safe Words with October and Tony Gonzalez on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, the folks, it is Thursday, September 3rd and it has been an interesting and intense breaking news hour. Really? And the Lindsay Clancy Triple Murder Trial. Welcome everybody to this breaking news episode in which ropes.

3:04There have been a lot of developments and we've been watching this courtroom for the past hour bottom line. There is a motion right now to remove a juror. Let's get going on this stuff, Rob. Do where you want to start. I mean, from the beginning, I guess, because we got word just a short while ago that the jury had sent a note. And we were told pretty quickly that it was not a verdict, but it was unclear. A lot of folks thought that note was going to say that they were at an impact. And I have right. That was around 230 Eastern time, 230 Eastern time, right? Correct. And so we're waiting, we're waiting and all of a sudden the judge brings the attorneys, both the defense and the prosecution, up for a sidebar. And we're getting, we were getting real time information from reporters who were in the courtroom. Because the pool camera was not obviously on the sidebar. But we got word that Kevin Reddington, Lindsay Clancy's defense attorney, was so angry slamming down paperwork at one point even through it on the floor. Tempers were flaring and we couldn't figure out what was going on.

4:05And it took a while because yes, then thank you to those reporters. What's her name? A Gillespie from Lawn Crime and Work with Court TV. Essentially, people in there have to relay it to a producer who has to relay it to an anchor on TV, who has to relay it to us as viewers. And now we're relaying it to you. This is how we were getting all this information. But yes, Rose, what you describe, they describe and all out. Brawl. Yes, at a sidebar. And the front of people in the court, we can't see it as the public, as a sidebar. But everybody in the court saw this. Voices were getting raised. Now the next thing that we said, what the hell? Kevin Reddington goes over and gets Lindsay Clancy and rolls her in her wheelchair over to the judge. What the actual hell? Yes. So then we see the judge calls in the jury one by one. And this is very good. And this is very good. And this is all taking place within a foot of Lindsay Clancy. So these jurors who have been separated from her, they've seen her in court, are now literally at an arm's length from her.

5:05Which is highly unusual. And we are seeing them being asked a question and we got word that they were watching the jury one by one answer his question. Yes. And so then... Brawl. Did he do all the alternates as well? All 16 jurors, the 12 jurors who were deliberating in the four alternates. And then he comes into court. The cameras pull out, we get audio. And the judge starts talking to the jury about reasonable doubt. What is reasonable doubt? And he goes and reissues his orders on what to consider. He says, what is proof beyond a reasonable doubt? And I have it here. It is actually specific language. And I'm not going to read the whole thing. It's loud. But proof beyond reasonable doubt. There is an instruction. It says, this instruction must be given verbatim. This is Massachusetts law. So to give them clarity, he had to go through and explain. It's very much legally. He didn't just say, hey guys, think about that.

6:06It's a very specific thing that he had to read to them. Takes a little walk long. He reads it, robs. And sends them back to do their work. Now, at this point, they only got half hour left in their day, based on how they have only been going to a four o'clock. We'll see how long. But he sends them back. But they weren't done. Right. He says, resume your deliberations. I think he ended with it's not enough for the Commonwealth to present a probability, or even a strong probability. It has to be beyond a reasonable doubt. So he has them go resume their deliberations. The jury leaves. He calls another sidebar. And we are all left to be thinking what the heck is going on. And then the camera pulls out. And Kevin Reddington is at the microphone. The second this next ad bar didn't take as long. So we thought that we were going to come back. And yes, of course, going to be in recess. When I saw him walk to that podium, nothing in front of him and just put both of his hands on it and lean forward, adjusted the mic. I said, what the actual hell and sure enough, Kevin Reddington went as Kevin Reddington, as we've seen him do.

7:10Robs, he is wildly upset because apparently this note from the juror, the jury has to do with one juror. They are saying that refuses to follow the law and follow the judge's instruction. That was the note. So how did the judge resolve this? He said by bringing them in one by one, putting them under oath. Can you follow my instructions? Can you follow the law? Yes. Did this 12, 16 times, whatever with everybody? That was not enough for Kevin Reddington. No, Kevin Reddington said that is not sufficient. And he actually, on the record, filed a motion to remove that juror who refuses to listen to the law. And he said, I want to formally file a motion to remove that juror. And so the judge allowed the prosecution to say what they thought interestingly enough, the prosecution said, we're okay that you asked each juror if they could follow the law. That is sufficient for us. We have no objection.

8:13He objected to what he called in the judge's face, a soft instruction. You gave us soft instruction that was not good enough. He said, Robs, if we come back here in a half hour and there's a mistrial because of what you just done, whoo, he did. He said he was angry. He was fired up and he basically said, yes, in 30 minutes, if we have a mistrial, basically it's on you judge because that juror should be removed. Now the judge in response to him said that discharging a deliberating juror who said that they can follow the law and his instructions under oath is a quote unquote sensitive undertaking. And he said he didn't feel it was proper to side with one side or the other. Meaning he's saying it's not okay for me to side with one juror or to side with 11 jurors. And they all individually should be held with equal respect. But you can imagine now, and I guess it makes sense now why Kevin Reddington was so upset to think that one juror is holding up a verdict.

9:16And we always were wondering what is the breakdown? What is the split? It seems like after today or after these last few minutes, we know what the split is. 11 to 1. Okay. Robs. Is it? I'm just okay. We've heard a lot and folks watch three different channels of legal analysts. Every single one of them is going to give you a different answer to what they know for sure is going on. It was hilarious as we were watching this all take place. Everyone was trying to guess why the judge would be calling up the jurors individually and asking them a question. People were saying he was on dangerous. He was in dangerous territory by doing so because you should only address the jurors as a whole, as a body to individually question them while they're in the middle of deliberations is legally dangerous in terms of any grounds for appeal going forward. But no one knew what was actually happening until he actually heard the scenario that I don't think one person in all the legal analysts that we heard trying to guess what was going on.

10:23No one even came close as close as they got was someone said this looks like something happened in the jury room. And that is sort of during this conduct something happened in the jury room wrote wrote is it one person. And there the one vote or it could be just one person refusing to participate fully in conversation, which is it I don't know and how can they make a determination. We decide that this one person isn't following the law like you said we decide this one person isn't following your instruction we the majority in here. Ro this is fascinating. I don't have a great handle on if it's 11 to one. I've never seen anything like this in my life. Let's go with the 11 to one though just as an assumption which way. 11 to one where. I'm curious. Yes. This is about reasonable doubt. Why was the prosecution so okay to leave that jury or sorry leave that juror on the jury. And why was the defense so upset about leaving that one juror on the jury.

11:28Okay, let's break that down a little bit. So why would Kevin Reddington be so upset he wants this person removed. That may mean he think the 11 are on his team correct and the prosecution obviously thinks the same thing they think the 11 are on their team. Is that really the case? Oh no, I think the prosecution thinks it's 11 to one they want the mistrial. Yes, they'll take it there it is. Yes, they believe the holdout is the holdout for not guilty. Yes, so if the prosecution thought this was going to upend a guilty verdict they would be slamming down paperwork too. But how can he is just assuming his summons in his favor. He's assuming he's probably did a better job of convincing 11 people in that room than the prosecutors have. Commencing 11 people in that room. I would just say there's a reason why the prosecution thinks one way and the defense thinks the other. The what they describe wrongs we couldn't see it but we could see it. It was weird to hear people describe how he was behaving and the back and forth with him and the judge.

12:34And we could see it in our minds because we've seen him perform the past five weeks. That's right. We even heard one legal commentator say, well, if I ever do anything wrong in the state of Massachusetts, I know who I want defending me. Because if nothing else, he was passionately and rigorously defending his client in that moment. Yes, but we also saw something today that we haven't seen a lot of in that courtroom with the past several weeks will explain that. Also, we'll tell you about the other things, other happenings, other things we observed in the court during what was an extraordinary few minutes. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and health captive for nine months. I survived and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the survivor files. You just remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying shut up, don't say anything.

13:36Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up without a doubt he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. Their story is about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to the survivor files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I choose option B. I'm Julie Beniero and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word solita, trading the pity for possibility.

14:39Every time I try to be alone I kept meeting people and they were like, you smiled at us not a lot of people smile around here. It's when you're alone that you're most receptive to the world as it is and not the lies you're sold about it. It can be a time where you push your limits, change your mind or wake up to a new version of yourself. So whether you're a solo travel veteran or you're too nervous to book your first trip, I hope you listen to Solita. On the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're a bookshelf and you're a for you page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Pro's Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed.

15:41From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. So like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters and that is the Trojan horse, whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro's Society on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages. Didn't catch the latest Roland Martin unfiltered podcast. Here's what you missed. And the argument is, do you want to win? If you don't win, you have no power. It's real. Those are the very people who I always say vote against their own economic interests and they complained about the very thing to receive. It's wrong. I knew that the issue of transgender athletes was not going well with a lot of black men.

16:41Roland Martin unfiltered. I went off. I said, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Y'all go scream at Chanel, but you don't want to see a black luxury company in the same bag. Roland Martin's daily commentary on the black information network. 12 seats. Those are moving south. So if you Democrats, you don't wait to 23, you better be hitting the ground going hard in the south now. And download Roland Martin unfiltered on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast. Or wherever you get your podcasts. That call was really pivotal for me. Hey, it's Emily Tish Sussman and this season on She Pivots, the podcast where women share bold career moves and personal turning points. That changed everything. I sit down with culture shifting women who share their pivots like Para Olympian Alley Truett. I was like, I'm a month out from a shark attack. There's no way in 11 months I'm making the very long text. Advocate Elizabeth Smart. I still feel that drive that I can still make a difference. So I'm going to keep going. Celebrity chef Carla Hall was that scary to walk away from such a stable career after just two years?

17:46No. I'm more afraid of being unhappy than I was broke and in a dead and job that I didn't enjoy. And feminist legend, Gloria Steinem. All of us were trying to express women's real lives. We need a meeting place of our own. And if I can contribute to that, I'd like to maintain that and leave this house for that purpose. Listen to She Pivots on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to Amy and TJ, a breaking edition. This has been a heck of a last few minutes in a Massachusetts courtroom after waiting for hours and hours. And thinking, any moment now, we're going to get a note from the jury. We're going to hear from the jury and all of a sudden, nothing went as planned or nothing went as expected. Because instead of having the jury come back in and either say they're at an impasse or offer a verdict, we got...

18:46A completely different string of events that took place in this courtroom, involving even watching Lindsey Clancy being rolled up to the judges area right in front of all of the jurors. I have never seen a defendant charged with murder being brought face to face to the jurors. Is that not some type of road? Does that not make a juror feel some kind of way? Should they be in that type of proximity to someone who killed three kids and they're sitting in their judging her? That would just be kind of a re-you-think. I have never in my life seen anything like it. And look, even when you saw, I don't say saw, we didn't see, but when reporters were telling us that they saw Kevin Reddington yelling that tempers were flaring, that he threw first this stack of papers on the table and then eventually threw them on the ground, there were folks who were saying he is risking contempt of court at this point.

19:46I mean, he was outraged and he was not afraid to show it in front of a court-a-packed courtroom full of people. Yeah, this was a jam-packed court at this moment and they're sticking around because as of this moment, they only have a short time left. They've been leaving at four o'clock Eastern time every day. They've asked to leave early a couple of times, but Robs was only a few more minutes. What is it like in that room now? Robs? They're telling on each other? Robs? This has got to be... They want to get this over with. But this is a serious matter now, Robs. We are how many out-to-how many hours? 36 hours, I believe, is the count right now that this jury has been... I don't want to say fighting, but negotiating probably very emotionally with one another. And I think it's fair to say that is what was going on because for them to actually send this note to the judge, telling on one person saying, one juror will not follow your instructions.

20:47Robs, 36 hours, over six days, and the defense just made a motion to remove a juror. That is really serious, and a reminder, folks, if one juror gets pulled, they have to start deliberations over. That is why they have four alternates in the courtroom. They've been in a different room waiting to see if their services may be needed. And it looks like I'm curious in 30 minutes if they come back with a verdict. Does that verdict stand no matter what? Yeah, I mean, he's going to appeal it. Obviously, whatever it is, I mean, if it doesn't go, breadington's way. Obviously, if it doesn't go, breadington's way, but I'm talking about the prosecution. If could anyone, could the prosecution, could someone call into question what the judge decided to do, or perhaps even not to do?

21:47Obviously, the defense is 100% going to use this as grounds. She's not guilty. She's done. I'm going to appeal for any kind of guilty verdict. Can't try again. It's done. Yeah, you got no options. You can't try again. So the prosecution, that's why it leads me to believe there's some reason why, both the prosecution and the defense believe that this one juror, this one juror, this holdout that, quote, refuses to listen to the law, or to follow the judge's instructions, is the person who is refusing to go along with a not guilty verdict. Folks, keep an eye on the feed because we are expecting something else from this court, from this judge, from this jury, possibly in just the next little bit. We appreciate you sticking around with us. We are keeping a close eye on it. Keep a close eye on our feed. I'm TJ. That's Robes. We'll talk to you soon. On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus, or this random dude is offering the ride on his motorcycle.

22:52I choose option B. I'm Julie Pinero, and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes, without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word Solita, trading the pity for possibility. Listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I survived nine months in captivity, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the survivor files. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to the survivor files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Bobby Bones. Join me and former NFL quarterback Matt Castle every Wednesday on our podcast.

23:54Lots to say with me, Bobby Bones, and Matt Castle. You're in training camp, and the rookie quarterback has one good throwing session in front of the media. Suddenly, everybody online says he should start over a week one. How do you handle this? You just go back out to practice the next day and wait for him to mess up. Listen to Lost to Say with Bobby Bones and Matt Castle on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's up? I'm Tony Gonzalez. And I'm October Gonzalez, but you can call me Toby. We want you to join us on our new podcast, No Say Forwards with October and Tony Gonzalez. We get real about marriage, parenthood, sex, divorce, and all the nitty gritty stuff we all think about, but just don't say out loud. You're probably just going to be some rich guy and he's going to whisk you away. Listen to No Say Forwards with October and Tony Gonzalez on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. College football will hijack your weekend, ruin your sleep and break your heart. And that's why we make the Sullivan verbal college football show. I'm Ty Hildenbrand.

24:56He's Dan Rubenstein. Every week we preview the games that matter in the storylines that are going to ignite your group chat. And you can join us in the aftermath as we react to what happened, why it matters, and how the sport went completely bonkers yet again. Listen to the Solid Verbal College football show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.