Champions League boom + Garry Cook on Manchesterism

0:00Guessing is for game shows, not your business. Workday is the enterprise AI platform for HR, finance, and IT, with AI grounded in your context to get work done and done right. It's a new workday. Self-directed investing, trading, full service, wealth management, automated investing, financial planning, thematic investing, retirement planning, and to think, that's just a small taste of what Schwab offers. Because Schwab knows that when it comes to your finances, choice matters. No matter your goals, investing style, life stage, or experience, Schwab has everything you need all in one place. So you can invest your way. Visit Schwab.com to learn more. What does it feel like to have a better laptop like the Dell XPS powered by Intel Core? Well, with a premium design that's thin and light, it feels smooth, very smooth. For a better feel in your hands and less weight on your shoulders.

1:00It's got a responsive touchscreen, so it feels fast and precise, with better scrolling, zooming, and swiping, everything just flows. Plus, with a long-lasting battery life, it feels like non-stop energy. For a better way to work without being near a charger. Built for those who want better, the Dell XPS. Build for you. The Athletic FC. Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Kate Mason. So the Champions League is back and several blockbuster fixtures have already gone in the books. Today, we'll be getting into whether the new format is just the Super League in plain sight. And what the future holds for Europe's elite competition. It's Thursday on the Athletic FC, so I'm joined by the big hitters as ever in studio. It's former England goalkeeper Rob Green. Afternoon. Hello. And on screen, we have our senior news and investigations reporter Matt Slater.

2:02Hello. Hello, with a lovely backdrop as ever. In New York, we have sports journalist of the year Adam Crafton. Hello. It's like the BBC joined the World Cup, isn't it? You've got this gorgeous kind of green screen, and you can see New York behind me. Yeah, exactly. Actually, it's just curtains. A couple of weeks ago, around the drawer, you were critical of the lack of jeopardy of the big matchups in the Champions League. We've already seen Real Madrid against Inter. Not believe versus Arsenal. Liverpool versus Athletic Home Madrid. But are they starting to get a bit diluted, given that they're coming round all the time? Ah, I don't know. I always like the first week of the Champions League, because I think most people don't watch, you know, every league across Europe. So you're kind of excited to see who's a bit different, who's come in, you know, this week. I was very lucky looking forward to seeing Real Madrid for the first time under Marinho, back in the Champions League, and kind of as the Villa back in the Champions League. So there were storylines to it, and obviously,

3:05Irayola, first game for Liverpool in the competition. I just think since that first year, where we were kind of deceived, I think, a little bit into thinking in the last couple of weeks, or a couple of the really big clubs might not make it, and then you kind of think, once you've got seven, eight games, they just are going to make it when 24 teams qualify. So I think it's kind of good as a showpiece. I just struggle with it a bit when it gets to like the fourth, fifth, sixth week, and I feel like there's quite a lot of games that you can probably just, you know, you might catch a bit of them, but if you've not seen them, it's kind of okay. And I don't know if that's a good place for a competition to be in. Yeah, we hide Robby were on rumoured enter, and feeling the normal Champions League buzz. It was a really intriguing game, one that was into where the better side, but it did feel, and these big games feel like now, the games that they've gone for, the ones that they want in the group stage,

4:08that every week there is two games that you know at least where they're going to be box office. Those games don't particularly matter so much, whether team A beats team B or whether it's a draw or not, those, those ones are the ones where you feel like the guys are going to shake hands and they say, see you later in March, see you in April, because you know you're pretty much going to get round about to it in the end by hook or by crook as one of the bigger clubs. So those games don't really feel like they've got the jeopardy. The games also, you're looking at Barcelona winning five, one at PSG looking winning six, one. Those are still going to come around. So I think all in all the bigger clubs, they kind of pretty much know they're going to get there, they're about by the end. So it's how they wanted it. This is what they wanted and this is how it's panning out to big. Yeah, to Rob's point, Matt Liverpool gets real Madrid at Amfield is not allowed to happen this season because we've seen it happen the last two, but that's fine. That can be played in Madrid.

5:09So it's interesting they're trying to finesse that point. We've seen these big games so often in the stage now. Yeah, I thought that was interesting that they brought that little wrinkle in it. It is the third year and I suppose if you think about it, just by luck of the draw, Liverpool, Rearler, being pulled out the last two years. So yeah, they said we don't want that. But funny enough, they got Liverpool at Letico instead. And I think this was the fourth tie between them since 2020. So that's six games they've played over the last six years. Having only played, I think a couple of times, only a couple of times before. So this is going to keep happening. And I think this is because of the, it's actually everyone calls it the Swiss model. It's the most misnaming of all time, right? The idea that they're based on these sort of chess tournaments. The way those tournaments work is they redraw after each round. So you can imagine doing a fixer's list. I was a broadcasted bit complete nightmare. The idea is, you know, you sort of winners, play winners, blah, blah, blah, blah.

6:09So the table's always moving. Anyway, that's not what they do. They use this pot system. So four pots. And this goes to Rob's point that we do get in every match week, we get a couple from the first pot, don't we? And I don't think, you know, there's much jeopardy there for the reasons that Rob and both had them. And they both pointed out that they've got eight games. And they've also got that kind of lucky loser round as well that we've seen PSG and Real and others come through. Those, it's almost like you try and avoid that to rest your squad. And I think that only really applies to the Premier League. I don't think other leagues see those extra two games as such a burden because they can already, you know, this is the thing about PSG, isn't it? They have almost two squads. They have a league earn squad on the other, a Champions League squad. So look, I, I don't think it's ideal. But one of the reasons we got here is because we were having these dead rubbers in the group stage of the, of the, you know, before, you know, you'd, you'd have a good team would win the first four

7:12games, five games. And then, you know, throw, throw the B team in for match, for match six. So it, I think it is just a bit of a kind of a structural flaw of these competitions. If we want jeopardy from the off, let's go complete, you know, 80s, 90s. Let's, let's, let's go champions being drawn against champions in round one bad luck. And they didn't like that idea. I can assure you. Well, it's interesting what's saying, covering the games for CBS. Yeah. The year before this new model came in, we covered out of the six group games, five were Manchester United because they were going out because it was so chaotic under 10, half the games were just, you know, incredible. So we ended up, everyone wanted to watch Manchester United because it was, it was a bit of a sinking ship. It actually in this new model brings a bit of variance into it. Yes, all the big teams are playing each other and it might not mean much. But we resulted ended up to go into Manchester United every week because that was the story.

8:13There was only one story. So if you're thinking of stories, you're thinking of actual mixing it up. This has brought it from a TV perspective into a different realm. So ultimately, we're saying then that Matt, this new format is proving pretty successful for FIFA, for UEFA, particularly given they're attracting these big new sponsors, like never before, including Hyundai. Yeah. So in the last week or so, kind of to get, you know, some drum ups and interests, I mean, not that they should need to drum up interest in this thing. They've, they've announced a load of new sponsors. And yeah, Hyundai's a good one, higher, you know, that make kind of white goes domestic appliances, a new fanatic steel. That was the thing with the little gimmick with the debuts and badges, a new extension of their broadcast deal in China. I think there's one in India coming. Look, they've got lots of good stories to tell, right? And there's no doubt about that. But I think we should just always remember that they've got a lot more games to sell.

9:16So everything should go up. So when they went to this new model, they went from 125 total games to 189. So, you know, what was 50% more games? So there was actually an interesting report this week, done by Nilsson Sports, who are a kind of audience data specialists. And they were sort of saying, this is a big hit. This is a big commercial success. You know, the viewing figures are fantastic. You know, suddenly, if we think about CBS, I believe, you know, for the final last year, I think it was 3.1 million people watched that. It was the biggest, most watched game in sort of US history for English language. That was more than double the 2019 figure. So it's doubled in seven years. And I think the real story around CBS, of course, is how clippable the show is, the Galatso show. And their numbers there are off the charts, like billions of people, barely, you know, up sort of 50% 60% in a season. So it's been, it has been a success. But the only sort of caveat I'd say is they have more inventory.

10:17They have more games to sell. They've got a whole different approach. They've got a new marketing agency. There's lots of things they've changed. And yes, probably the most famous change is Heineken, which was almost, you know, kind of part of the show. Wasn't it almost as much as part of the, you know, the star on the ball and the anthem? Well, that's been, that's going to be replaced by Budweiser. A B M A B M Bev, won the deal after 30 years. So, you know, yes, things have changed. They're doing longer term deals. They're bundling the compositions up. There's lots of little changes they're doing. But just that one caveat, they are selling more games. So things should go up. So it sounds as though Matt is also emphasizing that there's more eyeballs on this competition in the States. Does that feel like that's a big focus for you, Afer? Oh, I mean, it's a focus for everyone in sport, you know, I mean, just last week I was with Ricky Pondting, a very famous former cricket owner and cricket, a trying to make it in America. And rugby this weekend will be trying to make it in America

11:17when New Zealand plays South Africa. But, you know, there are certain football soccer competitions that are already really big here. And they are the Premier League, the Champions League. La Liga not really, but Barcelona and Real Madrid, definitely. And, you know, really what we got with this new format, it is kind of what the teams were implying with the Super League, which is that what the audience want is more of the big players, playing against the big players and more of the big teams, playing against the big teams. And if you can sprinkle that in with, as Matt says, you know, very clippable social coverage. And if you can sprinkle that in with brilliant co-commentary, as well, on CBS. Thank you very much. Then, you know, you develop a very strong product. Because the reality is, it's a weird time of the day for many of these games in the United States. You know, you're talking, I mean, for the games that are some games

12:19that still kick off on, like five or six o'clock in Europe. So they're starting kind of lunchtime on the East Coast, morning on the West Coast. What I think what you do get is like kids coming home from school, you know, turning it on, which is quite a nice time for those kind of later games. But you're still basically relying on people working, but not working, and double screening in offices, and maybe like just leaving the office and going to a bar. You know, I think it would be great for a CBS, for example, if there was a couple of game weeks or some of the knockout rounds at the weekend, that would also be like nuclear war with the Premier League and Serie A and La Liga as well, because they're all competing for that time. But certainly, you know, if I was relevant who sell these rights to TV networks, that is one of the things, I don't know that they are, by the way, this is just my idea, I guess.

13:20That is one of the things I would be pushing for. If you want to take that US deal and that US money even further, you turn this into that Saturday morning, Sunday morning slot for the Premier League has claimed, but that would be a big, big battle that I'm not sure you way, for actually wants to take on. This episode of the Affetic FC is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you could wake up tomorrow and be better at one thing, what would that be? It could be putting your phone down and being more present, or making more time for learning a foreign language. Those are some extremely mindful activities, but it could also be something like better motivation for going for a run, or getting better at KPPs. For me, it's reading more books. No matter what it is, though, better is a feeling defined by you. And for BetterHelp, it's a BetterHelp therapist who really gets you. It's a focus on global emotional well-being, with thousands of therapists and millions of members in over 100 countries. It's progress. And in my case, it's making sure I get myself into the right headspace

14:23so I can get a book off the shelf and know that I'm not just going to late time to start it, but I'm going to finish it too. Sign up today and get 10% off at BetterHelp.com slash FC Pottycast. That's vew.org. That's vew.org. That's vew.org. That's vew.org. That's vew.org. That's vew.org. That's vew.org. That's vew.org. That's vew.org. That's vew.org. Automated investing, financial planning, thematic investing, retirement planning, and to think, that's just a small taste of what Schwab offers, because Schwab knows that when it comes to your finances, choice matters. No matter your goals, investing style, life stage, or experience, Schwab has everything you need all in one place. So you can invest your way. Visit Schwab.com to learn more. In a world where AI is changing every role and every industry, knowing who actually has deep expertise

15:23matters more than ever. Upwork connects you with the highly skilled freelance professionals with proven track records, so you can hire with confidence. Upwork gives your business fast access to highly skilled specialists with deep expertise, so you can fill critical skill gaps, launch projects faster, and scale support up or down without committing to full-time headcount. With Business Plus, you can access the top 1% of talent on Upwork. AI-powered shortlisting delivers a curated shortlist of top freelancers match to your goals, and under six hours. No endless searching required. Thousands of growing businesses already trust Upwork to hire highly skilled freelance professionals for everything from one-off projects to ongoing support. It's free to sign up and posting a job is easy. Visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That is Upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's UPWORK.com. Upwork.com. Upwork.com. Upwork.com.

16:23Upwork.com. Well, we saw plans for a European Super League fall apart when they were announced back in 2021. Adam, this is an ongoing conversation it feels like because you could make an argument that the new Look Champions League is a Super League in all but name. I don't know. I mean, there's certainly some teams who appear to be locked into it, you know, in terms of, you know, Real Madrid and Barcelona and Alessandro Madrid, probably in Milan are going to be there every year. I'd Manchester City maybe you would say over the past decade for sure, but, you know, if you say the concept of the Super League was a locked format where it would be the same teams and it wouldn't be very easier to offer other teams to get into it, I don't think it's fair to say that what we've got now is the Super League, you know, we've got teams in it this year in the Champions League, like Aston Villa, Como, Saba, who play Manchester United,

17:25I mean, Saba, I hadn't heard of until about three months ago. So that in itself, maybe that just means I'm a bad sports journalist but it could also mean that, you know, this is a format that still remains open to kind of upstarts and challenges. I think where there is a Super League sense is, I do think we have a feeling now that there's probably six teams who can win it every year and maybe I'll defer to kind of a couple of the older people on our podcast on whether it's always felt like that. I find that quite offensive actually. I think he's talking to you looking around the room. There's not many of us in here. Yeah. Yeah. Or whether there was previously a sense of anyone can win it, you know, that anyone who's in the competition can win it because I think now I look at Arsenal, Manchester City, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, PSG, and it's hard to imagine another team than that

18:27wins the Champions League this season. And it's kind of felt like that maybe for the last couple of years. But I don't know, what does it feel different to you guys? Throwing the floor to the older people. And while I'll speak for the older generation, the older people. Yes, thank you. I put my walking stick down, but it's, I think it's, you know, gone other days, red start boring their way to a final and getting it over the line through penalty shootout against Marseille. That was, you know, those sorts of days along on, I don't think, I think the gap is so big. The team who are qualifying, you know, we talk about Sabah, they've had to go through four qualifying rounds to get to this stage. Each one being the underdog is pretty, pretty nuts in itself. So there, there is stories in there. It's just a different, it's coming in at a different level now. It's qualifying for the Champions League. So yeah, it's cool that they're getting in through this stage,

19:28but the likelihood of them going any further is almost nonexistent. Then, then playing Manchester United is their final. Right. That, that sort of thing. So they might not have got that in the old format. They might have got a, a Villarreal and another, and a Porto are a sporting and not had that moment against one of the, the Giants. He, he's changed the narrative a little bit. It's changed the, the interest in that. But I feel really now that when we were talking last week about players just wanting to get to the Premier League, you will end up with players just wanting to get now to those clubs that can compete to win that, that, this tournament. And it doesn't matter. Super league, Champions League, whatever it's called, it doesn't matter. It's just, that's where we are. It's just the pinnacle. Yes. Points. Yeah. OK. So, so just because we're making this comparison, Mark, or making this, this statement about where this sits in terms of the growth of the Champions League and whether this is a sort of end point and because of the change in format,

20:29does that mean we're unlikely to see any talk about Super League plans resurfacing? I mean, it sure answers no, right? Because it's really hard to kill an idea. And the idea of a European Super League a breakaway, it's been through so many kind of different names and iterations, has been played by the big cups. I'll be the 90 days he's correspondent for about 45 years. Maybe I think the first reference to, when I was doing my research on the European Super League, there are references in the 60s. So this is as old as this is older than me. Older than me, unbelievable. It's extraordinary, I didn't actually know football was invented before you. Yeah, it was very different. Yeah, slower, heavy balls and all that, footballs. And so, yes, it's been around for a while this idea, which is why you can't kill it. And the big clubs in particular will keep playing this card as a threat every time they want something. And that is the story of the Champions League's changes

21:30through the years. So if we think about what we've got now, yes, I would agree with your original question. I can sort of see the points that Adam's making. There is enough change. I think also Adam was showing off by saying that he's heard of Sabah two or three months ago. That is unbelievable knowledge. I don't know how does that last week. Would you question guys, if as a hypothetical and dread to thought for everybody in the leagues, but the next TV deal for the Premier League goes stale or even dread to thought of it going down, would this threat then become more real, do you feel? Well, I mean, I've been jumping after, but I've just very quickly. So the domestic deals have been flat for a while now. And in fact, on a per game basis, they've been falling. So that scenario has already happened. It's only really kind of stayed the same because we've been selling more games.

22:31They've just given sky more and more and more games. The flip side of that argument, of course, is the massive popularity of the Premier League around the world. So the international deals have done brilliantly. I guess if what you're saying is, let's just say both go flat, but let's just say the American interests, the Chinese, the Far East, whatever. And yeah, well, yeah, it comes back. It comes back. We've got this wave of money that are attracted to our teams. They've come because they think the trend is their friend and that this is this sort of getting bigger, bigger, bigger. We talked about it a few weeks ago, didn't we? Kind of, it's the play against AI. It's, you know, there is the scarcity value of these big things that we care about so much. Let's just say that whole thesis is wrong. Yeah, then then you start looking around and going, whoa, we need to do something radical. That this this Premier League thing isn't working. Let's let's get out that old European Super League idea again. Let's go NFL of Europe,

23:33which is basically where we were seven, six, five, six years ago when the ESL idea was percolating. It's where we were 15, 20 years ago. It's where we were 25 years ago when they went from a knockout to the first group stage. You know, this idea comes up at these moments of crisis. So yes, it can come back. The reason we haven't talked about it much is because we've got this new thing and the clubs are happy enough with it. And also because the European Super League was such an embarrassing failure that I think the dust has to settle for a while. The whole kind of almost a generation needs to forget about it. And the and the ideas that have come, like the Unify League, just utter nonsense. So we're waiting for like another great idea, really. I would add to that, you're also watching FIFA fall over the feet and land flat on the face, trying to sell off football, trying to sell off the World Cup, learn from other people's mistakes. Do not go down the road that you've just gone

24:35all the one that they're going to. And there's a wonderful idea. It is affecting what the, the Champions League is affecting the European Championship ticket prices. So they're making them cheaper, they can make them cheaper because their cash cow is the Champions League. Right. So the Championships can be cheaper, just make it free. Just send it out there as a gift to the people of Europe that never happened. Right. And also you're saying that you have this opportunity at the moment, Adam, to be the good guys in comparison with the FIFA bad guys, doing all these McIntyre things. We've obviously seen the competition that we're talking about grow from 32 to 36, having said all of this in the context of all of these, these conversations, could you see it expanding again? Oh, well, the Champions League. Yeah. As in, to have more teams in it. Running on the same kind of logic that we're seeing this kind of more is more football conversation. I mean, they all going to have to change the name at some point, aren't they? There's not many champions in the Champions League.

25:37Hmm. It's perhaps with the fifth and sixth and seventh face league. Well, Adam, see, I think, I think the whole point about this is the thing that people are worried about. This is the thing that domestic leagues are worried about with this new format. It's very scalable. So I don't think you go more teams, you go more games. Don't forget the original idea was 10 games. Eight games was a compromise. They wanted to go from six to 10 guaranteed. And the domestic leagues were like, hold on a minute. You know, how do you do that without encroaching on weekends, without squeezing us, you know, more? So eight is a compromise. Would they go to 10? Yeah, absolutely. We have a sort of scenario that Rob's just outlined and you get leagues going, clubs going, well, my domestic deal's going down. I need more games. I need more games against Bayern and Real and let's go and all that. Yeah. That could happen. What I would love, and this is the opposite, but I think it would be, it would be that it would make it the best product. If there was less games, so if you had the same amount

26:39of teams in the league, but you had six games instead of eight games, I've not done the maths on how that would all work out. But that would be amazing because the, the jeopardy that you have would then be restored and then actually if you did lose again early on, then you are genuinely in trouble and you can't recover. But from what Matt says, that's not going to happen. The people who are in most danger are the people who run the EFL cup. They're going to get chopped. This is where it's going to go and then the FA Cup. And that's where it's going to go is, we're going to have to tread on someone's toes. How are these, how are these clubs going to get more games into a diary that is already full? Well, you're going to have to lose games somewhere. So you'll end up with an EFL cup with no European teams in it. I completely agree with Rob. And you know, even the, there's now an FA Cup game week, isn't there? That is like a midweek. I don't know if it's the fourth or the fifth round. Yeah. Certainly was one of the last couple of seasons.

27:41I mean, that was kind of unimaginable 15 years ago, 20, 20 years ago. And, you know, I mean, I didn't know there was EFL Cup games last night until... They became amazing. Good one, dude. Until I saw someone on Twitter ranting about Daniel Farca. And I said, what could Daniel Farca have possibly done during this Champions League game week that is making a lead fan so upset? And it turns out he'd lost against Chelsea, who I also forgot weren't in European competition. So you're right that there is a danger that these competitions become lost. I think what's interesting as well, though, is for all the questions we're raising about it, you know, from what we're seeing from these networks like CBS and CBS, I think, are now going to go into the UK, aren't they? Is it the next season or the year after? Maybe the next season. Yeah. And Rob's going to let us know if it's going to be exactly the same format and which candidates are going to move over and where we're going to get the studio show. If they need any presenters.

28:42If they need any presenters. Cleaning on myself. Don't worry guys, if they need any US based journalists. No, Jackie. And also the brands, as we've said, clearly like it. So whatever questions are being raised here by, you know, I was on a podcast or fans saying, oh, this is a bit less exciting. Brands seem to like it. I mean, they've even changed the matchball. You know, they are now, I think it'd be an adidas for two decades. Now they're in talks with Nike for it to become Nike. And, you know, as much as we make out that UEFA are kind of the good guys, they're not after the money, you know, what would they do last week? The debut patches that was kind of a FIFA kind of inspired thing. You know, FIFA did it for the World Cup and that, you know, I think UEFA saw, well, that's a pretty harmless way to make a bit more money. The trading cards, you know, with fanatics, they don't, they're not so different. You know, they're not so different. Hey, listen, UEFA wants the domestic leagues to go to 18 teams and one cup competition.

29:48That's what they want. So that's Spain, that's Italy and England losing two teams. Meet Finn, the single customer agent made for the entire journey. From qualifying sales leads to resolving support issues, Finn works across teams, carrying context from one conversation to the next. Learn more at fin.ai Who says Halloween only lasts one day? With Wayfair, one night of Halloween becomes a whole season at home. From larger than life yard decor and moody lighting to festive accents for every room in the house, Wayfair has what you need to make Halloween feel like magic all in one place. Because the best Halloween memories aren't made in just one night, they're made all season long. Shop Halloween decor now at Wayfair.com. That's w-a-y-f-a-i-r.com. Investing with Schwab is like spending a Saturday at a great farmer's market.

30:49You can fill your reusable tote with a bit of everything. Maybe you go for some free range, self-directed investing. Or perhaps you pick up a few farm fresh trades while you peruse. You can even get help from a dedicated advisor. That's full service wealth management. Mix, match, and change your mind whenever you want. Because at Schwab, you can invest your way. No matter your goals or appetite for investing, Schwab has everything you need all in one place. Visit Schwab.com to learn more. Moving away from the Champions League then and throwing ahead to the weekend. We'll see Manchester United and Man City meet in the first match of the season. Don't forget you can catch Friday's tactical preview show from the athletic FC ahead of that one. We are joined now by former Manchester City Chief Executive Gary Cook. Gary, great to see you. Great to see you too. Thanks for having me on. Now, a biggie to start with, Gary, how do you quantify the role of Manchester United and Man City

31:55playing in the globalization of Manchester? How Manchester has seen across the world? Well, let's, you know, it's a great point. And I think we sort of started off, you know, over a hundred years ago with a derby. There are many around the world, as we all know. That Sunday we'll see the 199th version. So we're going to see 200 of them, the 200 this year. And they started off really sort of, they were a distraction from the industrial north, you know, it was sort of an entertainment product that created conversation and narrative in pubs and workshops. And that was a really important part of the fabric of the community. But I think if you jump all the way across into 1992 and the formation of the Premier League, you've got a global platform telling stories, you've got a global, they've got a football club creating the stories. So you're creating awareness, you've got travel around the world is growing, media is

32:56growing. And we're now attracting or it was attracting capital investment. So these two football teams were now starting to attract the commercial world into and generating economic fuel into the city of Manchester. So it's quite amazing really. If you then jump to 2005, the Glazer family take over the football club at Manchester United, Shekman saw takes over the club Manchester City and I was privileged to be a part of that. But during the selling process to Shekman saw, we were selling an investment in the Manchester economy, not a football team that was going to play every weekend at three o'clock. But it was a very different proposition all built off this new global media product. So sport and football and now had become a growth driver for an economy. So really quite an amazing thought when you think that once upon a time it was about

33:58it was about housing or transport or health or education. Now sport and media is driving an economy. One more so than in Manchester where Sir Howard Bernstein and Sir Richard Lee's who ran the city council. Actually we're using football and sport to leverage and grow their city. They applied to get the Olympic Games didn't get it. They got the Commonwealth Games. Commonwealth Games then turned into a stadium which turned into a football club which then turned into new ownership. And the coming together, the perfect storm of property development, politics and economics all working together but at the very heart of it are two football clubs. I mean if you think about it then take it a stage further. Our new prime minister was there at the same time. He was seeing it and living it and working it.

35:00And now he believes in devolution. He believes in giving cities the opportunity to grow and build and attract inward investment. So I remember times where we would take Manchester City on tour and Sir Richard Lee's and Sir Howard would come as a delegation to attract inward investment from overseas. Now that's a different way to think of the Derby. David Gillen I used to sit and talk about should we play the Derby in Beijing or New York as part of a let's build Manchester. So I don't want to overplay it because I think we underestimate the role that those two football clubs have played in this city. And what was once a local presence is now a global relevance. And I think that's an important part we're seeing it more and more across the world. And you mentioned it in what you just said there Gary but you were involved in brokering the deal that sold Manchester City to the Abbey Dover United Group in 2008 and of course

36:04served as Chief Executive. So it sounds as though this was the story you were telling to those potential investors. Yes, you can be part of a club but you can also be part of the development of a major global city. Is that right? Well, it's absolutely right. And you know, in the early presentations to Schikman's team, we were talking about the realm that was once called Eastlands and it was the city of Manchester Stadium. And we were talking about the corridor of property development to join the city of Manchester to the stadium and the city then decided that it would be good to put a transport mechanism and network which of course Andy Burnham again is bigger to connect people to places. And once we did that, we were then talking more about the opportunity for economic growth to get the support of the council and the government at the same time putting the football

37:07club on a global stage. How did you sell it to the players when you're saying you sold the project to Schikman's sur and then to other investors? You know, the names like Rabinio and other famous players who had to take that first step from Manchester City being another Premier League club to what would to be the powerhouse that it is now? Yes, that's a great point. You know, if you think back at the time, we decided that we wanted to build a campus. And the reason that we wanted to build a campus was we wanted the players to see the journey from the very beginnings of their career with the inspiration or the aspiration to play in the stadium which was going to be improved. And on that basis, we needed to have the training facility close by the stadium. And in fact, we're one of the few in the world that did that. And with that, we attracted again more commerce, but we attracted great players.

38:10Great players, you know, we all know the economics of football, it's well documented. But there's an element beyond economics that has to say to a professional player at the highest level, you will be working every day in one of the best environments in the world. And if you deliver that to them, you've got a different point of view than most football clubs anywhere else. And so you then put yourself alongside Ray Almodreid and Barcelona and Bayern Munich by virtue of having a great place for a great club. And I think that that was important. So it was all part of a well-rounded, integrated strategy to build a football club. Gary is mentioning some big, big name place that, of course, are huge football cities. But do you feel as though Manchester has a case for being one of the biggest football cities in the world right now? Yeah, well, I was going to really sort of throw out to Gary because I don't live too far from Manchester. I'm in Maccusfield. I'm surrounded by city and United fans.

39:13They're very proud of their city and they're very proud of their football teams. And they certainly feel that they are the biggest football city in the UK. And I think kind of increasing there, they're starting to feel they're the biggest city in the world. Now look, when Azar is matriot, Milan, there'll be plenty of other people London. There'll be plenty of other places that are saying, hold on a minute. But Gary, you've lived there. You've worked there. For a moment, I think on Sunday, Manchester's going to be, it's going to feel that way, isn't it? For certainly for a couple of hours, the eyeballs of the world. Yes, it is, Matt. And I think if you also track back the history, we see growth beyond just the football match itself. You see tertiary businesses, one of the largest sports business consulting businesses based in Manchester. We see digital elements in sport basing themselves in Manchester.

40:13We see continued investment firms living and working in Manchester, investing in sport. So it's the tertiary businesses that get created. But I also flip that over and having worked in Saudi Arabia and the United States, you going to any airport and you'll see a man city, Jersey and a man in the United Jersey sitting alongside each other. You know, available to the masses in other countries. And we've seen massive commercial growth. So I think those that are from Manchester are still getting what they always did, which is the local rivalry, the narrative on Monday morning, whichever way the outcome. However, we've also got this new audience where people in China, people in India, people around the world are going to be talking about that Derby. We've seen people attending the Derby from overseas and around the world. So we've just got a much bigger stage on which we play. Gary, I want to pick up you.

41:15I mean, you said that you would talk with David Gil and you'd have ideas for different ways to kind of grow that brand of the Derby and the rivalry, which I guess Spain have did so effectively, maybe organically with El Clasico as well. When you were starting to do that, did you find Manchester United wanting to go on that journey with Manchester City or being kind of anxious and resistant because it was the kind of train coming down the tracks behind them? I think that if I'd be lying if I was to say that it was all guns blazing, let's go, let's not just go get it done. David, a great operator and a prudent operator was having to manage his own brand. And so that was understandable. I was a bit more, let's not the door down and let's go. And David always had a very considered view on what the outcome might be.

42:19He had a brand to protect. Now Adam, I will say this at the time, nobody was really aware of what Shetman saw was going to do with the football club. There wasn't the sustained longevity that we've seen that has been delivered with the commitment that they've made. And we've seen all too many times in football owners come and go, they quickly get excited and they quickly lose interest. But we see two football clubs with sustainable ownership, with sustainable operational behavior, developing profitability and growth and making a difference in a city. So when David and I used to sit there and talk about these opportunities, David would say, you know, we've never really talked about that before, but it makes a lot of sense. And I would sort of be very aggressive. But I think we were always trying to manage the, I think it took, I don't think they actually played Matt, you'll probably know better than I did, I will.

43:22They didn't end up playing the Derby in, I think they first won, they played in China, it was about five years ago, six years ago. So it took a long time for the belief that two great products coming together as a great brand, both carrying the same name, which is also important, was a great opportunity. So to be clear, you meant exhibition games rather than premier league games? Yeah, you know, you can mix some of that together. There was a parlaying conversation at the premier league where we were always thinking about the 19th, sort of 39th game, if you remember, that was a conversation. So these are all just anecdotal revival of time, aren't they? But now when you step forward and you look at time as it has passed us, a lot of those ideas weren't the silliest ideas were they? But at the time, media tended to criticize anything that was remotely out of the box thinking. But now we look back at it all seems a bit old-fashioned to be honest.

44:25Thinking of the box thinking, it's just a curse of when you talk about the relationship between the two clubs, an old teammate of mine, Carlos Tevers, were you the brains behind the welcome to Manchester poster? I would be professionally naive if I was to lie to you. That came across my desk and it was brought upon me by a company called Anomaly, who I used them when I was looking after Michael Jordan's brand for Nike, and they said, what do you think? And it was just that's a moment. That's just a moment. You'll never, that moment will never come back and you have to make a decision right there and then, and you have to decide whether it's a go or a no go, and we decided to go with it. Of course, again, with hindsight, seemed like a pretty clever idea, because the media value that it created exceeded $120 million within six months, and it created, again, going back to our Manchester Derby relevance,

45:25it created quite a story in Manchester, pretty created a much bigger story worldwide, and so, yeah, it was, I'll never say anything was my idea. It was a group of people, but, yeah, we pulled the trigger on that and we didn't hesitate. So much so that our friend Sir Alex Ferguson, who I have the greatest respect for and who wouldn't, it brought to his attention, and we were at a Bobby Chalton dinner, and we ended up talking about that very subject, but it was very brief, and Alex didn't want to go into any detail on that one. You mentioned early, obviously, Andy Burnham is now the Prime Minister. He was the Mayor of Manchester until very recently. He's kind of explaining that his vision for the country is a bigger form of what he calls Manchesterism. How much of Manchesterism is actually footballism to you? And also, I mean, you mentioned how it burned to be in Richard Lease before.

46:28How much of what's happened with regards to that growth? You mentioned some of the things that have come to Manchester. You could add the Brits now, which have now moved. You've got the BBC, you've got the NBA, you're bringing a game there, they may well bring a franchise there as well. How much of it was Andy carrying on work and how much of it was down to him, would you say? I think all of the above Andy Burnham, you know, grew up in the, so Howard Bernstein, Sir Richard Lease era, but it was as much to do with economics, Lord Jim O'Neal, one of Andy Burnham's close friends, and as certainly one of the great economists talks about devolution, which is basically empowering the city that you live in to attract and leverage all of your assets to attract private investment in order to generate economic growth, and the government can support that. And so that fundamental economic policy is one that Andy Burnham believed strongly in,

47:32and that's how I would define Manchesterism. It was a way to attract private investors into helping you build your city, and you had to try and find a way to help support them in their quest to give them preferential circumstances. Gary, one just quick one for me just to finish up, I think. You've done some pretty cool jobs after Man City as well. You know, UFC, you mentioned the Saudi pro league, and of course Birmingham City. So I'm thinking about kind of lots of almost disruptor-type brands there, you know, brands on the up. Do you think what happened in Manchester can be replicated? Do you think, for example, that Birmingham could do it? I think I'll go back to my point I made earlier, Matt, if I may, the education, health, transport, and now sport and media going to Adam's point is the Manchesterism. That was the, it was on the agenda in Manchester.

48:34Sport was on the agenda as a way to, as a catalyst for economic growth. If, if we as a nation believe that any city can generate continued economic growth and leverage sport for that very purpose and football in particular, then we will see continued economic growth. Now Birmingham City was another example. I was the CEO at Birmingham City, and Nighthead capital, the owners were also interested in not just buying a football club, but changing the landscape of Birmingham. That attracted them to buy the 100 franchise. It attracted them to continue to build and grow and look at opportunities working with City at Birmingham University. And from there, you would hope that this is the way that the future economic circumstances are going to change for the positive by using and bringing sport into

49:37the mix a lot more than we perhaps have done in the past. Lovely stuff. Thank you so much for joining us, Gary. We'll see you very soon. And thanks to Matt, Adam, and Rob for today. Rob and I will be back tomorrow with our tactical preview of the weekend's biggest games and what trends we're noticing. So far, this season and Matt and Adam will be back next week. Till then, take care. We'll see you soon. Hi, I'm Jack Ravic, your Kramer host of the best one yet. At T-Boy, we're always talking about small decisions that can have an outsized impact. One of the simplest is staying hydrated. Whether I'm traveling, getting a workout in or heading into a busy day, I keep liquid iv on hand. It's clinically demonstrated to hydrate faster than water alone and contains three times the electrolytes of the leading sports drink, plus eight vitamins and nutrients. It's an easy addition to your daily routine and helps support hydration when you need it most. Shop now at

50:41liquidiv.com. Liquid iv hydration that goes wherever life takes you. As a fitness coach, my active psoriatic arthritis can slow me down. With SkyRizzy, RisenKizumabRizzah, I'm treating my skin and joint symptoms so I can keep moving. SkyRizzy, a prescription only injection for adults helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling and fatigue. And for those who have plaque psoriasis, 90% clearer skin is possible. With SkyRizzy, there's no daily dose. It's just four doses a year after two-starred doses. Don't use a allergic to SkyRizzy. Sirius allergic reactions, increased infections, or lower ability to fight that may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor about any flu-like symptoms or vaccines. Thanks to SkyRizzy, there's nothing like clear skin and better movement. And that means everything. Ask your doctor about SkyRizzy. Visit SkyRizzy.com or call 1-866 SkyRizzy to learn more.

52:01For more information, visit SkyRizzy.com.