What If... Wayne Rooney joined Manchester City in 2010?

0:00The Athletic FC Hello and welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Emma Payton. This is What If, where we discuss the biggest sliding doors moments in football and look at how different life might be on an alternative timeline. This week we're asking What If, Wayne Rooney, Cross the Manchester Divide and joined Manchester City. Well with me in the studio today is the Athletics Dan Killpatrick. Hello, welcome along. Hello. Hello. We've also got Jack Pitt Brook back after last week's show, also with us is Andy Mitten from the talk of the devil's podcast and I feel like this one's going to be perfect for you. Yeah, let's see, looking forward to doing it, Emma. How much are you looking forward to this, Dan? This is where we have fun, basically. Yeah, I'm psyched. Yeah, I love a counterfactual. Something a little bit different. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's fun to kind of speculate and step out of the realms of reality.

1:02Let's do it. Well, so far in this series we have examined what a world without Pep Guardiola and Roman Abramovich might look like. So go and check those episodes out if you haven't already. But here are the three major alternative timeline moments we're going to be focusing on this week around Manchester United legend Wayne Rooney. First, what would have happened to United if they lost him to their bitter rivals Manchester City in 2010? What impact would it have on cities own timeline? And what would it mean for the legacies of Rooney and Sir Alex Ferguson? So guys, let's start with a history lesson. Let's go back to the beginning because we know, of course, that Rooney has united all time top goal scorer with an incredible 253 goals in 559 but Jack take us back to the very start and talk to us about that impact that he had when he was just a teenager and burst onto the scene. Yeah, I'm not sure if younger listeners and viewers

2:03will really quite understand just how exciting Rooney was when he first broke into the Everton First team at the age of 16. For people of my generation, that goal, if they he's going to really famous goal at Goodison Park against Arsenal when this was October 2002. So Arsenal would have been the reigning Premier League champions at this point. And you can easily find it on YouTube. Rooney puts the ball in the top corner over David Seaman, who was the England number one. It's a brilliant, brilliant goal. And I think when he scored that goal and there's a famous bit of commentary, remember the name Wayne Rudy, which has really kind of gone down to take a big place in the national consciousness. And he was just thrilling wasn't he, because he was so, he was so strong, he was so clever, he had even though he was just a kid, he played with such a kind of adults, physicality and bravery and spirit. And he was just electric and really thrilling to watch.

3:07And I don't, I still don't even think now, you know, that was a long time ago that was 24 years ago now. I don't really think English football has produced anyone quite like him since. Yeah, I agree, Jack, when he came through Everton, he, David Moise who was manager felt that he had to wait a little bit of time to introduce Wayne Rooney, but then he saw with his own eyes, what we've seen in training every day. And this was someone who aged 16 was the best player Everton. So he had to bring him through and I spoke to Moise about it several times since. And then Everton had a problem because Wayne Rooney was so good that suit has started to circle and Manchester United were a pre-eminent force at that time. And you speak to people United and they'll say, I saw Rooney in the news when he was 15, 14, 10, 11, 9, 8, 6 years old. I told them to sign him when he was two years old and we saw him walking across the field in Crocs. But he did finally sign in August 2004 for a huge fee. And Sir Alex

4:08attempted to court this young prodigy, some slack because he said, in three or four years time, we might see the complete article. Well, United fans had to wait minutes rather than years to see the evidence of this genius. Because if there were any doubts, he could adjust to a better team. Rooney dispelled them in a 37 minute debut hat trick against Fenerbahçe with a Champions of Turkey, even by his own standards that defied expectations. And Wayne Rooney's Manchester United debut will go down as one of the most spectacular in the club's history. And it wasn't only that the 27 million pound sign is called a hat trick. It was the outstanding individual manor in which he took his free goals. Many United fans were starting to think, okay, maybe I don't hate people as from Liverpool as much as I previously did. Rooney left the pitch, his shirt was torn, his hands were proudly clutching the match ball to a standing ovation. Even some Fenerbahçe fans really voiceless as the Turkish fans tend to be. They applauded him.

5:13Yeah, I watched that in preparation for this pod. And actually, in my mind, that feels like just as much of a moment for me as the goal against Arsenal. So I think I watched that one live. You just felt like you were just witnessing the real birth of a huge star. And I remember there was an Evertonian at school, which is quite weird because I went to school in Oxford. He was really sad the next day. And just kind of palpably miserable, but that had to serve as guy and he was obviously going to be such a big star. But as Andy says, that was an incredible hat trick. It was like left foot first time off the bar, killed his man and then buried it in the bottom corner was right foot. And then a brilliant free kick. I was kind of wondering how many other free kicks really score for you? Nice. I'm sure there were quite a few, but given that he played with Beckham for England for much of his England career and Ronaldo and others he united. I wonder if actually we didn't see as much of Wayne Rune's growing set pieces that we might have done. What a way to announce yourself. And he just became a regular for Manchester

6:18United straight away. And this was a United who were in a rebuilding phase. So Cristiano Ronaldo had been signed the previous year. So he had these young players coming through. Not fast enough for some. Rudran Nistoroi famously said in 2005-2006 that he didn't feel Manchester United would be capable of winning European cups, champions leagues with players like Rune and Ronaldo because they were too inexperienced. And that view led to an argument which led to Rudran Nistoroi leaving Manchester United for Real Madrid. And Van Nistoroi great player that he was was absolutely wrong because Wayne Rune became one of the best players in the world and quite selfless big hero to Manchester United fans as well. So you have this irony that it's come out of Liverpool. But there was some glee that Manchester United had taken somebody from Liverpool even if it was not from Liverpool FC it was from Everton. But it's what he did on the pitch. That's what won over

7:21so many hearts. He was really exciting for England. I can remember watching him in the Euro's in Portugal in 2004 and just thinking wow, wow, you see that once a decade. And he was a really important player for Manchester United. A team who started to win league titles again 2006 and 2007 and then by 2008 Manchester United were English, European and World Champions. And Wayne Rune was the person who scored the goal which made Manchester United World Champions and he was an absolute star player. Maybe not quite as big a star as Cristiano Ronaldo but we can come to that but absolutely adored hugely influential player. Let's get to the crux of the story then. Wayne Rune hands in his transfer request in 2010 and Andy tell us about his relationship with Sir Alex Ferguson and I suppose what led to that point. So it had gone from Rune being a teenager saying

8:21Fergie, Wedge want me to play tomorrow and he's like I've not even made him announce my team yet. You might not be playing and Rune going of course yeah I'm your best player and Fergie laughing at that the fact that a teenager was saying stuff to him but it became strained and it became strained for a number of reasons. United as I said were World Champions in 2008 but the following year they saw Cristiano Ronaldo for a record transfer fee. Now that was reluctantly accepted. He wanted to go to Real Madrid Fergie considered it an achievement that he managed to keep him for another year but Manchester United also lost Carlos Tevez another forward who played up front with Wayne Rune. Now Ferguson was so dominant that he controlled the narrative and Manchester United were told that Carlos Tevez had been greedy fans sang about him being greedy but it was actually a fantastic player. Now eight or nine years after Carlos Tevez left Manchester United for Manchester City.

9:22In controversial circumstances you remember the billboard saying welcome to Manchester. There were still Man United fans, Man United players sorry talking about how much money Carlos Tevez was being paid by Manchester City and I didn't if you'd Rune when he was a teenager sort of 1617 but I also interviewed Leonor Messi several times and I remember Leonor Messi saying to me after an interview which wasn't so interesting but when the tape went off he said to me how much money a Manchester City paying Carlos Tevez and I thought it was a really unusual thing to ask a journalist he didn't really know as opposed to one of his international teammates so it was clearly a talking point and Fergie's version was we're pre-eminent we're the main team you do it my way there's no other way but United lost two amazing players and the existing players were not delighted about that none more so than Wayne Rune and it was

10:22a time where Fergie would say things like there's no value in the market. Well that may have been true but Strelik's Ferguson powerful that he was did not control the entire football market and what clubs paid and the replacements for those players were underwhelming and Rune who had become the best player he probably felt that Manchester United were getting weaker and not stronger and that would have averaged Ferguson who would have been like you trust me I've delivered continually I've reinvented teams I've rebuilt teams but Rune did not have that view and became frustrated and he will have also been looking across the city and hearing the type of money that Manchester City were allegedly paying players. Well according to Wayne Rune himself this was speaking on the United stand really recently he said he was never really close to joining Manchester City in 2010 Andy what was your reading of that whole situation regarding United's you know biggest rivals

11:23in the city? My reading at the time was that he made it clear he was prepared to join Manchester City which was huge huge news now he had his reasons and Manchester United never said publicly that A he wanted to join Manchester City because this was at a time where Fergie was saying these are the noisy neighbours they're just upstarts they're not really a threat to us you know we'd never sell a top player to them Carlos Tevers leaving was because we decided that not to give them a contract and David Gill who was a very important chairman for Manchester United I think he was dispatched almost immediately to speak to Paul Stretford who was Wayne Rune's longtime agent and Manchester United never said that Wayne Rune wanted to join Manchester City now with the benefit hindsight it's in Wayne Rune's interest to say he was never going to join Manchester City but all the briefs from very reliable sources at the time including from Manchester City whether it was

12:26serious it wasn't made up Wayne Rune was interested in going to Manchester City now if by saying he's interested that's his way of protesting at Manchester United perceived lack of ambition that would have been something United fans agreed with as well because you'd lost these really important players and he wanted to see the team progress so by him saying that he would be prepared to join City and also because of his personal circumstances he was very difficult for him to leave England because his wife sister wanted to be close to home to Manchester and to Liverpool so there was talk at the time of Barcelona being interested Real Madrid Chelsea of course he were he was Wayne Rune he was absolutely brilliant but Manchester City suddenly coming into a lot of money would have suited Wayne Rune from a logistical perspective and then he ended up staying with Manchester United and then the version of events no no there was never anything in that that

13:28served them after the time to say things like that yeah well that that wasn't the only incident though was it because of course there was another flare up in 2013 when Sir Alex Ferguson went when public after his last ever home match at Old Trafford what did he say back then he said I don't think Wayne Rune was keen to play simply because he's asked for a transfer so I actually had forgotten this one before we started prepping for the part and I think it was kind of a subplot to Fergie leaving United and that was the story and this was the second story but still a big one and I think had Fergie not been leaving and had this not been his penultimate game it would have been a massive deal that Rune had seemingly asked to leave again I do think though with hindsight one reading of this and I'll be interested in Andy's view is that Rune seemingly asked to leave United twice in 2010 2013 and got massive new contracts when United after both on both occasions

14:32so you could frame this as when Rune was really good at getting what he wanted from Man United and I think the 2013 contract was reported to be 300 grand a week it was five and a half years that probably the contract that with hindsight you would look back on and say maybe that was a mistake because we know that Rune declined to the end of his time at United and that's maybe the one that United would regret so I think you could frame this that Rune and his representative were just really good at playing United and kind of getting what they wanted and ending up in a position of strength in 2012 2013 Alex Ferguson didn't tell anybody that it was leaving and his relationship with Wayne Rune had declined now Fergie told people at United that Rune can be sold and he was no longer Manchester United's best player Robin Van Persi had taken his mantle he arrived

15:36in 2012 when Manchester City had piped United to the league famously on on that last day and I spoke to somebody who played with both of them and he said to me Robbins' rise was not good for Wayne Rune Robbins became the main man the leading striker Wayne's relationship with the manager deteriorated more so after he didn't start in some key games we weren't stupid we could see that the chemistry between them was not the same but there are times in a career where you don't see I2I with your manager it's how you come through that to continue being a successful player at a club like United what matters and then Alex Ferguson left so everybody thought Rune was was going to go but the new manager was David Moise who knew Rune who'd worked with Rune and when Fergie left it changed the dynamic Rune went from going to stay him but it took time I can vividly remember doing radio BBC August of 6 2013 United were trying to sign Cessk Fabregass and a new work was

16:43happening from both ends of the deal I could not find a single Manchester United fan who wanted Wayne Rune to stay at the club that day because I was requested to and it was all get rid of him the scouts this and that and yet he did stay United wouldn't sell him to Chelsea and a couple of weeks later when Wayne Rune warmed up because he'd been dropped for the first game of the season the first post Fergie game David Moise in charge it was at Swansea now is in the away end half the away end boot and half the away end cheered and Rune looked as surprised as any that someone actually cheered him he wasn't expecting it and his people his agents would definitely worried about a backlash Wayne Rune came on you did well he only half celebrated the goals and then he became by a distance the best Manchester United player under David Moise so yet he had that huge new contract and that's when it was renegotiated because he did decline in form a few years later and you

17:48may be to your point they did overpay but Wayne Rune for a couple of years remained Manchester United's best player but it shows you how fans can change the tune in the space of a couple of weeks he went from being get rid of him to actually brilliant isn't it and that was his name again and just on that then because we're going to let you go in a moment and we'll move over to our alternative time like what what was the fan sentiment when he left United then and you feel like looking back now did he get the affection that he deserved at the time during his career there so it became a legend it became the person who broke the Bobby Chalton's goal scoring record for Manchester United there was songs about him being the white Pele he was there for an awful long time he won the league but then in in in in 2013 but the United have not won the league since look at me reminding myself of that delight he did decline so I can remember quite a lot

18:51of criticism of him around Euro 16 he wasn't the player remember interview in him and he just admitted he wasn't the player that he'd been so he went from being this absolute force and someone who was United's best player to not being that person and he was still the best paid player and I think when he left there were there were no protests to keep him it was not the Wayne Rooney who would have gone in 2010 or 2012 2013 he's someone who'd served his time quite magnificently he'd been a club legend but he was of an age and he will be remembered really affectionately by Manchester United fans because of the great goals he scored in the great teams that he played for and also as a person in matured I remember interviewing him really early on for the cover of 442 magazine and he was not interested and I've said this to him since it was really difficult and by the end of his time it

19:53became really engaging and interesting and he had opinions which were worth listening to but as a Manchester United player I recently did a list for the athletic the greatest 25 Manchester United players and I put Rooney in at number seven and I probably got more criticism for that than any other choices and the criticism was because people felt he should have been higher I argued against that but there you go that shows the sentiment towards him very favourable yeah shows the sentiment now for sure and we'll let you go because you've got to go and speak to Michael Carrick so thank you we appreciate it thank you very much this is the athletic FC podcast with Emma Payton the New York Times app unlocked everyone knows you need to subscribe to the Times to access all of the reporting but what if you could explore the Times for a month for free without putting in a credit card now you can when you download the New York Times app for the

20:53first time your first month in the app is free a month to go behind the paywall to see what time subscribers get every single day if you don't already subscribe to the New York Times download the Times app today and get free access for 30 days okay time now to cross over to our alternative timeline this is where the fun starts so first of all then Jack I mean what does life look like at Manchester United without Wayne Rooney in 2010 I mean how do they replace him in the squad first off because I think he finished that oh nine ten sees him a 26 Premier League goals also what what's since since this whole thing and since retiring he's talked about the impetus of this situation was because he'd seen the likes of Tevez leave Ronaldo leave as well and you know he was asking the hierarchy well who you're going to bring in so imagine he goes as well where does this leave Manchester United if we assume that Rooney

21:58would have left four city in the January 2011 window because obviously this this whole saga happened in I think October 2010 so I think United so let's say they sold them in January and United probably would have had to muddle through to the rest of the season with their remaining players they would have had Burbotov and Hernandez up front they would have like I'm not sure would they have reached the 2011 Champions League final so that's when they lost to Barcelona Rooney scored of course because Rooney scored both against Shalka in the semi final first leg but also with probably more importantly against Chelsea in the quarter final first leg in April 2011 I don't know if they would have done that obviously the Premier League title that a season United won very comfortably there wasn't really a lot of competition they'd be Chelsea by by nine points would they still have won the league probably so I think in the short term they would have been okay I think the big question really is what might United have had to do to react if they had sold

23:02Rooney clearly they would have needed to go into the market and buy a big name player from somewhere else someone who could really not just provide goals to assist but also be a bit of a figurehead be a bit of a frontman for the whole thing I don't know exactly who that would have been I suppose you could make a case for Sergio Aguero I mean we'll come back on I suppose to the question of whether Aguero would have gone from Attletico to Manchester City in the summer of 2011 had City bought him you can maybe look at someone who did eventually end up at Manchester United and as Edson Cavani who at that point just starting to make a big name for himself at Napoli I suppose the really interesting one would be I don't know whether you know it would be if United had been forced into the transfer market in January 2011 who was the best player to be transferred in the January 2011 window into the Premier League from Europe Louis Suarez of Iaxe who Liverpool signed that January and I just wonder I mean this is

24:02this is pure hypothetical but if United had been desperate for a big name player someone who could come and make an impact come and be a bit of a leader on the pitch for them whether they might whether they might have turned their attention to Suarez of Iaxe in that January window well so United without Rooney but they've got Louis Suarez yeah yeah that would have been spicy and you Louis Suarez was so good for that period of Liverpool you could make a case that they wouldn't have lost a great deal I mean I'd written down similar players to Jack I'd written down Falcow and Cavani he both ended up at United years later who were probably among the best strikers outside the Premier League in Europe at the time and then I guess there's a question of might they have gone for Van Persier a year earlier that a muddle through to the end of the season he hadn't had the 30 goal season in the Premier League yeah obviously that was to come the following year but he did score 18 goals in the Premier League that season he was really emerging as one of the top forwards in the league obviously Fergie was in Amara as we know

25:06so I guess that would have been a possibility but probably at the end of the season not in that January window so I think as Jack says they would have to have replaced him but then interestingly Burbotov and Hernandez outscored him in all competitions that season so he wasn't United's main source of goals at the time and Jack I just wonder as well if he doesn't go sort of in 2010 to lose him in 2013 would that have been more palatable or then do you look at it and say well they were losing Sir Alex Ferguson as well and it was you know just such big change at the club I think I think both things basically Emma I think that it would have been huge change as they'd lost because they lost David Gill as well in the summer of 2013 if they'd lost David Gill Sir Alex and Rooney all in the summer of 2013 that would have been huge and it would have clearly made David Moise's job even harder having to not just to replace Ferguson and you know all the kind of

26:08boardroom level change with Gill's departure but also to do that without Rooney you know as Andy said Rooney did have a good 1314 is called 17 Premier League goals and you know they would have had to they would have had to do do things differently wouldn't they they would have had to have spent more money in them in the summer of 2013 and then had somebody else to play up front probably with Van Persie from then on that all said as Dan said earlier I think it's hard to make the it's hard to make the case that giving Rooney that big contract in 2013 was really good for United because I felt like the middle years of the 2010s were probably a bit too much dominated by the question of how do you fit in Rooney how do you get the best out of him do you have to move him into midfield and if United had sold him in the summer of 2013 then after the short term pain of losing him I think probably over the next three four five years they might have been in a better place certainly if they had spent the money so and I don't think it would have been particularly

27:09if he'd gone to Chelsea in 2013 as opposed to Manchester City in 2010 I don't think it would have been as much of a blow to the the kind of standing of the club and the kind of I do I don't think it would have dented the pride in the same way that it did in 2010 and I feel like Ferguson probably knew that as well I think the fact that he made those very well publicised comments around his last game about Rooney wanting to leave to me that almost felt like Ferguson would that Rooney would have left with Ferguson's blasting in 2013 and clearly in 2010 that was not the case. Would say 2010 he does go to City then what does that do to Sriraiic Ferguson's legacy? Well I mean I don't think it's going to significantly impact Ferguson's legacy out so already cemented his legacy even by 2010 so I don't think it's going to significantly damage that. Two thoughts really one is that I think Ferguson's ability to control the narrative that Andy

28:10touched on earlier was probably enhanced by the way he dealt with Rooney asking to leave when October 2010 because he did a very memorable press conference on the eve of quite a low key Champions League game against Beraz Paul where he kind of came out and revealed that Rooney had handed in a transfer request and wanted to leave the club and this was known before they'd been a variety of reports about Rooney's desire to leave that already were mentioning City but Fergie managed to if anyone was thinking oh well you know this guy's right he's got a right to play where he wants and look united to selling tevers and Ronaldo they're buying Chris Mauling etc they're lacking ambition Fergie completely flipped that on his head and sort of played the betrayed hurt parent card and actually I encourage anyone to look back at the transcript of that press conference because it's extraordinary he even talks about the club kind of helping Rooney through these in various situations in his personal life and he even says he is given Rooney financial advice

29:16personally and is very hard to imagine a manager now doing a press conference and saying that they'd given one of their players financial advice which I think speaks to the time but also just who Fergie was and the power he had the position he was in so I think he enhanced his reputation for kind of narrative control then but equally had Rooney left and united a gone on to win the title which is Jack says they might well have done they might well have mothered through and tell had enough and one that I've seen his last season as well let's say then I think it would have just embellished Fergie's legacy he would have said you know this guy betrayed me he went to our great rivals he did the dirty on us but I was still able to you know beat him to the title in two of the final three seasons I was at the club so I think it had that happened and it would have only kind of embellished that legacy and and and kind of furthered that feeling that that one of Fergie's

30:16great strength was rebuilding teams and recovering from the loss of players which I think it was I also think Ferguson was really good at he was really good at making it look like united never lost players who they didn't want to or when they did lose players it was always on their terms so obviously with when Chris Deon Aranaldo went to Real Madrid in 2009 for you know I think Ferguson and United were able to paint this as kind of a success right like we got an extra year out of him a year in which we we a year in which we won the Premier League again we got back to the Champions League final we got a world record fee from Real Madrid for him which was always one of Ferguson's conditions for Aranaldo's departure and so while they were sad to sad to lose him obviously because he was so good it was sort of spinnable I think to an extent as a success when Tevers went to Manchester City it was maybe slightly harder to do that but they were able as Andy referred to earlier to kind of make it look as they're very unique circumstances around Tevers

31:20and and his own situation whereas I think that if Rooney had left a city in 2010 that would have been really hard that would have been really hard for United to present as any kind of success I think it would have I think it actually would have hurt them far more in the sense of the damage it would do to the sort of esteem of Manchester United and just to the the kind of ego and pride to lose a player of that caliber to their local rivals local rivals who they had made a big focus and made a big thing about being the kind of noisy neighbors and so on and so I think that for all of those reasons it was almost more from that like political perspective it was more important for United to keep Rooney in 2010 than even from a football perspective yeah with all that in mind I just think the United fans would have reacted then as well pretty badly I think there was already I think I'm right in saying there were protests from Manchester United fans outside of Rooney's house at the like roughly around the time this was

32:21happening effectively to you know to kind of put some pressure on him not to go to not to go to Manchester City and and obviously the moves didn't happen in the end but I'm sure that if the move had happened then it yeah it would have been really really really badly received by huge numbers of Manchester United fans and it would have you know it would just imagine what it would be like the first Manchester Darby in which Rooney was lining up in blue and the booing and the hatred and the placards and the signs and all the rest of it it would have been yeah I don't really think there I can't really think of any precedence for it I mean I suppose you could say saw Campbell it's not quite the same but that's that's what I think it would have been that level of of hatred directed towards him it hypothetically had this happened so that that's the United side of things let's look at the Manchester City perspective then because I mean imagine it's Wayne Rooney who's

33:21helping them to their first ever league title how would that go down yeah I mean as Jack says that that would have that would have been huge and extremely contentious in that part of the world I mean look I kind of want to start with like a bigger thought in city which city fans weren't like so sorry but I kind of feel like one of the reasons that city like inspired so much apathy in neutral fans and one of the reasons that a lot of people view them as kind of a vehicle just for stopping including myself by the way a vehicle just for stopping teams they actually just like from winning stuff they're my case Arsenal you know you know go win the league city because I don't care about you I do care about Arsenal it is because it feels like the kind of consequences don't really apply to them in the same way they apply to other clubs right because they're stay owned and they've got such great resources and so I think that also applies to the transfer market you know they can they can sign players and they can make mistakes and they can kind of correct those mistakes you know Claudia Bravo spring some mind you know all the sun is keeper is perfect for

34:28what we want to play but oh it doesn't work so we'll just sign another really expensive keeper the following summer and I think that that's repeated across a lot of cities business they don't seem to suffer consequences they don't have to make transfers work in the same way that other clubs do so I kind of feel like the actually the stakes for city if had they signed Rooney would be lower than they would be for United and for Rooney himself like city could sign him and he could be a fabulous success and that would be brilliant but then city were kind of destined for success anyway because I was gonna say do they sign him instead of a Guero or maybe not if we're going off well I just I thought my sort of feeling is that like that they would have they would have got they're eventually no matter who they signed and it might have taken a year longer it might not have happened in quite the same way but it would have still happened because of the nature of Mancetti so I think the stakes for United would have been really high as a jack's point like it would have felt like a precursor for this great decline if United it would have felt like it had come earlier

35:31and it would have been particularly painful because it's happening you know to with him going to their newly rich neighbours and I think it would have been a huge thing for Rooney's legacy in the ways viewed today but I actually I almost feel like for city it would have be sort of just another transfer that could could have been spectacular and maybe not maybe not and actually it doesn't really matter either way yeah um jack I wonder what it would have been like having Rooney work under Pep Guardiola obviously that would have been the the very back end of Wayne Rooney's career and yeah I mean it's interesting I mean let's say they signed them in 2010 I think there's no reason to assume that Guardiola wouldn't have taken the job in uh to start to replace Pellegrini in 2016 I don't think I think Dan is probably broadly right I don't think things would have really changed the path that much I certainly don't I guess the really interesting question is would they still have signed a Guero because you know would you need a Guero six months after signing if you

36:34signed Rooney in January 2011 do you need a Guero in the summer of 2011 I'm not sure would Rooney have done as well for a Guero city I doubt it I mean I don't think you would have saw 260 goals for city like a Guero did over the course of 10 years um simply based on Rooney's output for Manchester United you know for Manchester United Everton and elsewhere in the 2010s so I think in the main it probably like city problem you would not have been as good but let's say hypothetically Rooney uh really was still that at City in 2016 and Pat shows up um I don't know I mean I I wouldn't like Pat was pretty pretty ruthless with with great players who he inherited who he thought would maybe pass their best a bit you know Sam and Astrid didn't really play a tool for him I think Yaya Torrey played for a bit um but Pat was very very focused on bringing the next generation of players who he who he wanted to build around and Rooney was clearly you

37:34know as Andy said like not not really himself by 2016 I think it was never clear what his best position was I think that was as true for Man United as it was for England and then I don't think there's any reason to suggest that I'm working under Pat in 2016 things were doing very different now of course if you know in a in a timeline in which Rooney played for Pat earlier in his career that I think maybe they could have they could have been brilliant together but by 2016 I think he'd probably been declining for too long you're listening to the Athertik FC podcast with Emma Payton just another couple of hypotheticals before we move on to the really fun stuff and because Jack I wonder what would have happened if in 2013 Manchesha United accepted Chelsea's bid for Wayne Rooney and we see a Rooney Marineo link up I think Marinho I think Marinho and Rooney would have gotten really well at that point I just think the way that Marinho managed he was so this has

38:37kind of always been true but was particularly true then he just wants kind of experienced he wants experienced big name players who don't need a huge amount of instruction and who can make decisions on the pitch for themselves so I think that if he'd had if he'd had Rooney at Chelsea in 2013 he would have been like I have no doubt that he would have been really good like he would have felt Marinho's trust Marinho would have been really good at motivating him they probably would have won the title like Chelsea were really really close to winning the Premier League title in 1340 I think people kind of forget a bit a bit that a bit because they were people were so focused on you know Liverpool and Brendan Rodgers and Stephen Gerrard and so on but I think he would have been great I think that also I think that Chelsea team they probably before they signed Diego Costa the following summer they really needed a number nine that season like they had I mean they had kind of an old Eto they had Sherlock they had Denver bar they had a sort of not very effective

39:40Fernando Torres at that point so if you put Rooney into that Chelsea 2013 14 team you know maybe they go on to have more success maybe they were the Premier League maybe they were the Champions League on the other hand you could say well maybe they don't they don't get Diego Costa who was integral to them winning the Premier League the following year and then and then again with Antonio Conte in 1617 so you don't quite I mean I'd be so even if they hadn't got Diego Costa the following year I still think really would have made a really big short term impact at Chelsea one last hypothetical what if in 2010 he joined Barcelona or Real Madrid yeah I mean obviously be pretty spicy if you joined the I mean that was that was perhaps Barcelona right yeah yeah I mean that was it just doesn't feel right like Rooney joining that bar scene that Barcelona team just kind of feels perfect and it's sort of hard to imagine where he would way would slot in there it's also kind of that that was in areas where which feels a bit

40:44strange now because obviously belling him and so many others have sort of changed the way we look at European football I think but like English players just didn't really go abroad often it was such a rarity they were a handful of them so I think it would have been kind of spectacular from that point of view in that it would have felt so unusual and so interesting but that Barcelona team just felt such a again just such a like well-organ machine that I don't know it just feels like you're disrupting the harmony somehow by trying to crowbar really and right we've talked about the alternative timelines but I feel like Rooney's character is actually a huge part of this story you said a minute ago about main character sort of energy what are some of your favorite Rooney quotes I don't know if you've got any I mean looking through his Twitter like 15 years ago is brilliant by the way but Jack anything stand out to you yeah I love Wayne Rooney's Twitter because it's a throwback

41:48to when footballers wrote their own tweets and they actually do nowadays so you know footballers on Twitter and not yeah and on other social media platforms you know what you're going to get it's you know fans are fantastic didn't we play well thanks to everyone who traveled or it's you know I'm delighted to be a brand ambassador with this brand on that brand or whatever it's not you know it's clearly not the footballer him or herself like sat there tapping away on the phone but you know this is but when you look at Wayne Rooney's old tweets so much of his I think so much of his actual personality comes through and so much of like the reasons that the people that the public loved Rooney because he's kind of he's honest he's a bit unfiltered he loves life and so when when he tweets things like me and Joe Hart having a few beers oh I love that it makes me jealous it makes me think I wish I could be having how at that moment in June 2011 having a beer with Wayne Rooney and Joe Hart

42:51or another another classic also from June 2011 just chilling on boat listening to stereophonics it is blasting water band Kelly's a true legend beer bottle chilling so yeah I think I've got a better one from June 2011 so yeah I'm a huge fan of Rudy's Twitter so also June 2011 having a great night in Barbados in Lexus Piano Bar with Colleen Rue and Friends been on the mic for about seven songs and felt like a rock star so he was obviously really he was obviously having a great summer 2011 after getting the the the big new contract from United he was out celebrating yeah I totally good Jack it also feels like a kind of reflection of like early Twitter as well when we we weren't really quite sure how to use it and people were kind of using it to directly message their friends in a high Rio John picking up in the morning exactly yeah I mean my favorite of Rooney's tweets from again from June 2011 and a big summer film just to confirm to all my followers I've had a

43:54hair transplant I was going bald at 25 why not I'm delighted with the result yeah yeah just only it really honest really Frank and like I think we all suspect that they're quite a few footballers and indeed football managers I mean Jack mentioned one of them in in Antonio Conte who have probably had a hair transplant but I don't think any anyone else has kind of owned up yes in quite the same way as Rooney so yeah totally good Jack his personality's kind of shines through here right time now for some trivia before we wrap things up this is a game called who am I Jack knows how it goes he was extremely competitive last week so be really down it's quite simply I'm going to state a series of facts about a player and you have just got to guess who that player is okay yeah the risk of going kind of Finchy in the office are we allowed unlimited guesses you're yeah yeah yeah I'm going to give you a number of clues as well so obviously whoever needs the

44:56less the fewer clues wins but just chime in okay so this player is a teammate former teammate of Wayne Rooney so the first clue I played alongside Rooney 153 times any early guesses clue one no no so Jack is in flops day once again ways you can't be can be game alive I'm alive we can't the can't do the latest hands I want to see I want to see your hands hands up okay just any of you I can't see your head how do I know you're not cheating and they continue my hands yeah yeah these sounds free what any do you want to just stab in the dark oh um 153 times or do you want to set clue number two John O'Shea that's well done for just throwing that out there but no okay clue number two

46:00this is where it gets interesting I am an FA Cup winner with two different clubs oh Jack's gonna win I know he is I'm so bad at these things okay I got something that's gonna make it easy no I am a defender oh reaffirming not nope but you're like this one I finished my playing career at Manchester United in 2025 Johnny Evans I kept thinking about where's brown yeah that was that was a great that was a good one I thought with the the two different clubs FA cups you might have got it but where's Brown's 46 it would have been quite spectacular he was did you think you still I don't know he was just in my head it was just it was just a loop of where's Brown's okay right um that was good and well done to Jack you know you do love

47:06these trivia questions you do right finally then guys what what's our verdict which which timeline do you personally prefer like we say it's all hypothetical it's all fun do what do we feel like we've got the best scenario out of we've got Rooney State united or would we have like to see him somewhere else whether that's city whether that's Chelsea whether that's over in Barcelona under Pep yeah so for me like I'm happy with with how reality played out I'm happy with him staying united in that press conference I mentioned where a kind of heartfelt Fergie said I betrayed he was by Rooney he did say something which I thought was quite telling him he's he mentioned the romance of of united which I think was was was a bit of a dig a city um you know who were obviously um uh run by a state and don't have the same history as united and I do think you know united were very hateable back then for for kind of obviously they weren't everything so you

48:14know for younger listeners it was when Rooney went from Everton to united like they they were there were probably a couple of other clubs that could have signed them then but like united were clearly the the the sort of biggest fish in the pond um whereas I think now you know were a prodigy to come through Everton who are sort of a similar stature there would probably be a lot more teams um vying for signature so united kind of felt like this this big behemoth who you love to hate but I think I just think it would have been I just think it would have been a shame if he'd gone to either Chelsea who were um kind of Oleg Ark run or Chitty who was state run um and I think to Fergie's point there was kind of more romance and in staying united becoming their top score a beating Bobby Charlton's record um and kind of being this this this sort of beloved figure in one half of Manchester um rather than a really divisive figure um in in both half of Manchester um I mean Jack mentioned so Campbell earlier and like I made correct me if I'm

49:19wrong here because I am a spurs fan but like I feel like Campbell is kind of as much remembered just for making that move as for the stuff he won is that fair Jack and I think Rooney even if he gone to city and sort of won stuff that that would have still been the thing narrative that would have been the thing from his career I think the people he was the guy who made that move um and I'm kind of prefer him being the guy whose united's record scorer and you know a kind of legend there love that Jack are we sticking with the romance what are we going for uh I am sticking with reality as it happened on the basis that if Rooney had joined in city in January 2011 I don't I can't be certain they would have signed the Guarro and therefore we might not have got the Guarro moment which was one of the best moments of my entire life so on that basis I'm going to stick with reality yeah I mean we were yeah we potentially wouldn't have got to the most iconic

50:20Premier League moments the overhead kick against city yes um and the Guarro moment um so yeah while I think city's trajectory wouldn't have changed a great deal and probably united as well because Fergie sort of left them in such a you know if Fergie had too much power didn't he that was the story you would have been denied these two sort of moments that everyone loves looking back on I'll stick with reality then I'll stick with reality for this week guys thank you so much for your company big thanks to Andy for joining us earlier as well we're back with another what if next week we'll see you then