Discovering A More Authentic Self When We Can’t Discount The Influence of Our Upbringing w/ Renowned Marriage & Family Therapist Vienna Pharaon

Welcome. I'm Kevin Miller. This is a podcast about how we make meaning of our lives and experience the miracle of living in this episode

discovering a more authentic self

when we can't discount the influence of our upbringing.

So I never wanted to give much credit to genetics or my upbringing. I mean for the good stuff, sure, but

overall, I wanted to feel and really did like I'm my own person.

Until sometime in my 40s when I realized I kept repeating some patterns that weren't helping me and started looking back.

Today, I really amaze myself at the impact our upbringing and our family has on us. Maybe more so as I have now had so many kids and I see them as well.

You know, for better or worse, you know, we want to be our authentic selves and I wonder how authentic we can ever really be.

So of course, I pursued an expert. My guest and guide on this subject is Vienna Farron.

So she's got a book called The Origins of You, How Breaking Family Patterns Can Liberate The Way We Live and Love.

Vienna has been posting these insights from thousands of her own patient encounters on Instagram.

She's got over 700,000 followers tuning in to try to find their more authentic selves. So Vienna.

She's a licensed marriage and family therapist. She's one of New York City's most sought after relationship therapist.

She's practiced therapy for almost 20 years. She's the founder and owner of the group practiced mindful marriage and family therapy.

So Vienna has been featured in the Economist, Netflix, Vice and Motherly. She's led workshops for Peloton and Netflix.

And really, I've seen Vienna become a therapist that so many other therapists look to for guidance.

So coming up, Vienna Farron, she is going to have an in-depth discussion with me as I really am grappling with and try to figure out how do we deal with the impact of our life?

Our origins, as she says, and find the more authentic us.

Vienna, I talked about it when I saw that Nedra Tawab and Whitney Goodman were recommending your book, You Had My Interest and the origins of you.

And right away when I got into it, what really came up was, I think we all know that we're influenced by our upbringing.

That's not new news. But the gravity that you have given to it even went beyond, I've been saying a lot of times,

no, that's our programming. And what I, and reading just right away at the beginning of the book, I felt like, no, you're really showcasing, no, this is your operating system.

And it kind of gave me a different perspective. And I found myself talking to my kids even about it.

Guys, I, for better or worse, you, you have my operating system, you know, myself and your mom and that's it.

We got ours from here. That's what you got. And we're minimizing it.

And I think that's what gravity is the kind of word that came to me that you have increased the gravity of saying, no, guys, this, this is it.

This is the big deal. You don't just wake up and go to something different and forget about this stuff.

It is who you are. And I think that's pretty weighty. I think for most people to conceptualize that actually accept.

Yeah, I think it is challenging. It was hard for me, you know, for a really long time. I ignored it and found ways to distract myself from it.

A quick little blurb about my story is that my parents went through a nine year divorce process, separation divorce process that started when I was in first grade.

And there was so much during that time and for all the years after of intense conflict, psychological abuse, manipulation, gaslighting, paranoia, emotional flooding, just all of it.

And it was very uncomfortable and very traumatizing and very hard. And for decades, I sat with my parents divorced and affect me.

They're good friends now, which was true. That was accurate. At a certain point, they would travel to my lacrosse games and college together.

They'd come to my recitals. We'd have holidays together. And so it was much more palatable for me to say that everything was fine.

And I was a totally normal, healthy child. And it didn't have any type of effect on me. And I kept that narrative with me, even into the beginning of graduate school.

And I get a real kick out of it now. I'm like, oh, my gosh, my professor is an advisor. Supervisor's master's just been like, oh, a sweet girl.

You're getting to the field of marriage and family therapy. And you don't think that your past had any impact on you.

And I understood that later. It was really overwhelming to be with pain was overwhelming.

And to understand a little bit more about my story, while my parents were in the chaos, the role that I took on as an only child in a system that was crashing and burning around me was to become the okay one I'm fine.

I'm unaffected. I'm unbothered. I'm all good over here. My thought process at the time was you guys are so unwell that there's no room for me to not be okay.

And I maintained that role for a really long time. And so this idea of coming into contact with me actually not being okay with me actually being affected was so new.

Right. And so just to your point, there's a lot of things that get in the way of us being able to really be in contact with the pain and the experiences and the story.

High level where you started was we all know of course that our childhood plays like some kind of role. But then we just kind of move on and or like that.

And I don't want to that was so long. That's that's what and that's what got to me as I've read in your book and thinking about this that what is it about us that to me, I'm going to use the word ignorance, which I like that word.

That means dumb, just lacking knowledge that we grow up, you know, at some point we kind of get to the point generally of going, okay, I'm ready to go.

And we take off and all of a sudden we're in college or a job or whatever and we wake up and we're in our own place. We are our own person.

We want to think that we're our own person and now we can just do what we want to. It's kind of a clean slate and realize and holy smokes.

It reminds me the old I thought of in reading the book, the old school, I know this is sexist and terrible but finishing school for girls, you know, kind of thinking.

And we need one of those for all of us that we get out of high school, let's say, and somebody like a you like a therapist goes, okay, what do we got here?

Let's figure this out and unpack this and see what we're starting with because you got a whole operating system. Let's get you fully aware of that and figure out what we need to break you up, reprogram you up.

What was great that you can leverage an expound on as well, but that's what gave me it got me feeling like with my own kids, I want to go guys, we have a family meeting.

You guys have been brainwashed.

I mean, I feel like that's a big word but it really feels that for you to be really clear and clean and figure out as best you can figure out who you are.

You almost need a, I don't know what would you say a reboot or I almost like a re brainwash figure out who and what you want to be.

Well, it's right. I mean, I think they're the space, the freedom to actually have your own thoughts and opinions and feelings.

You know, it's like our family systems are the first place where we get an education on just about everything and we're told what to think and what to do and what to believe.

And for many people that programming and conditioning just comes along with us, there's never a point where we're like, wait a second, do I actually believe that or what do I actually think about this because we grow up in environments and systems where things are explicitly stated or implicitly implied right and

we receive it as truth as anyone does when you're a kid, oh, right, of course we do.

And so, yeah, this idea of, okay, when do I get to question because not everything that was given to me is wrong, bad, misaligned, whatever you want to call it.

Right, much of it is probably lovely and wonderful and supportive. And then there are also things that are misaligned and keep us stuck in the unwanted patterns that we have in our adult lives.

I think unwanted patterns that we can't shake today as adults is a really big indicator.

I say the unwanted patterns in our lives today that we can't just change if you can change a great what want to imply an employee behavioral shift and you're able to do that amazing.

But if you keep coming back into an unwanted pattern, right, that is time to your resolution in your past.

That is what really brought me to finally not just saying and everything was great. I have no reason to have anything negative.

I had a very relative, and we'll talk, I want to talk about some second, but it relatively, you know, untramatic, small tea, you know, childhood.

It was. It seemed pretty great, but and I'm grateful that you said that a minute ago.

It had been a lovely, wonderful, supportive, you know, steaming home, but at the best, at the very best, it was dramatically limited.

That's what gets me now. I mean, my kids are so limited by their influence, primarily by their mom and dad.

And we used to have ages ago, many ages ago, you know, we grew up in community in a village and takes a village to raise somebody and you had aunts and uncles and extended family and friends.

They're all there, kind of the big fat, Greek wedding type idea, which I really like a lot of that.

And now we're so isolated that my kids experience is so limited. And even if I am doing my very best, I just can't expose them to everything.

It gets me even, well, let's start, let's stop there. Because yeah, then the patterns that they embrace and engage and continue, and if they're not aware of, especially those negative things, because there just has to be.

They can't, I can't be a perfect parent.

Exactly. We exist in an imperfect system. And that's, you know, we have so many ways in which we distract ourselves from people are afraid of opening up Pandora's box and what will I find or will it be too much or will it be too overwhelming?

Or maybe I have a relationship with my family now that I think is okay and good and I worked really hard for that.

And I don't want to go there and disrupt it. Or maybe I have a deceased parent. And if I find something and I can't have a conversation with them and there can't be any type of reconciliation, I'm afraid about that.

Or the narrative that we hear, you know, often, you know, they did the best that they could with what they had or well, their parents were so much worse than they were to meet.

So like obviously they're on the right path. You know, it's like we have all of these explanations and reasons and fears and you know all of that can be valid and true.

And it is a distraction away from honoring our pain.

It's a distraction away from just being with what our experiences.

And like you said at the very minimum, even when we have phenomenal parents, there is an imperfect system that we are navigating.

This work, the origins of you is not meant to throw parents under the bus. This isn't us going on a while goose chase. This isn't us trying to point fingers or blame or stay in a victim position.

This is about identifying and addressing what is true.

And honoring that so that we can move forward so that we can have an inner piece so that the life and the relationships that we say we want to have actually have an opportunity to shift.

And because the past comes with us in the obvious ways many of us maybe know, but they it also comes with us in really subtle ways as well.

And if we're not tending to the original pain and wounding as I put it in my block, it's going to keep running the show.

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I want to go right there. It's actually page 37 of your book revealing revealing revealing the wound. So talk about pain because Vienna I didn't I just have had never related to that word.

If you told me I asked me about trauma or pain I go gosh man it was just it was a I used to remember literally say and this is going to date my age. It was a beaver cleaver family man everything was everything was kind of good.

And I won't name names but I've had people in my life who have had pretty significant acute blatant trauma and I've since then come to feel like sometimes I wonder if what you just talked about the subtle trauma is even worse because we tend to discount it.

I didn't want to ask you about that those two words trauma and pain. So a lot of people like myself are just they don't tune into those words and I would say I would skew it worse on the man side on men's side of not not coming to those words.

I started working through that in after page 37 in your book which some other ways that I might feel that word or resonate with that and I thought how about that moment of anger to think back as a kid a moment of man I was really anger maybe angry maybe I last out frustration something that felt really unfair.

And I'm opening up some of my own Pandora's boxes some things that happened it wasn't all for my parents it was from other people as well which you talk about to a moment of being scared.

So I got to get fear and got me thinking back about I joke about it with my kids but I was dramatically scared of the dark.

I don't really know where that came from and I don't really where it ended didn't continue I don't sleep under the covers and not scared to walk out in the dark today but it was terrifying.

And so to think back that so I wanted people to hear that that when you say pain and trauma to think about is that fair anger frustration and fairness scared fears or something else that we should add there that because I hear you say no everybody that exists to everybody to some degree.

Yeah I would say that everyone has some type of origin wounding and the reason why I use and yeah trauma pain wounds and the reason I use the word wound is because I think we when we hear that word word we think of the physical everybody knows what a physical wound is.

Yeah it's like and especially over kids right we scrape our knee somebody cleans it they wash it out they put a bandaid over it over it let it get some air underneath it set tell you that's the best way to heal it then we take the bandaid off there's a scrap and then of course inevitably as kids we bang it up against the chair and the

falls off and it starts to bleed again okay that visual representation is something that we all understand that's the same thing with emotional and psychological wounds right is that there is an original moment in which there is a sure the anger the reactivity everything that you're describing in the book right I would say these moments where we don't feel worthy where we don't feel good enough where there's conditions for love if I get straight A's if I score the hat trick if I am perfect right that's when I get love connection attention that's what I'm doing.

Connection attention validation approval piece calm from the important people in my life it's when we don't feel like we are a part of the family where the outsider we don't fit in where the black sheep it's when we don't feel important enough to the people who mean the most to us because they're prioritizing work over us or they're prioritizing conflict or they're prioritizing going on endless dates with new people because they're so focused on that that they forget about what your experiences and what it is that you need.

It's when we don't feel like we can trust because there's a betrayal or deceit or lies that are happening in our family or when we just don't feel like our overall well-being is being considered honored respected or protected right and so it's like these things can yes of course happen in these big ways we know that you know I think to your point you have friends who have big stories and what you're describing I don't know what page it is on in the book but what I talk about wound comparison right where it's like.

Okay well I how dare I even complain about this little thing over here when my buddy over here was sexually abused when my other friend over here had you know a parent who abandoned that you know it's like my stuff doesn't even compare to that and those are all things that are distractions away from honoring our own story when we do that right when we do that we walk away from exactly what it is that we need.

It makes me think as you're saying that that as I look and compare maybe there's even room to say man I'm grateful that that didn't happen to me that's really really harsh and yet not to invalidate and in reading that section on wound you also got me to think and as I was thinking about my own childhood some things where I look back and I mean my parents are not faultless but there are some things that I look at and go you know I don't know if there's anything that they really did do wrong in that instance I however might

have had an adverse reaction based on whatever something that a friend put in my head or or or some perspective that I got or just I was just being a little butt whatever it was and I but either way I felt bad so something happened it was pretty benign it could have been everybody would have looked and gone but for some reason I took it bad and regardless of what I hear you're saying it is because a wound is a wound is a wound is a wound if it is a wound is yeah that's it if it is a wound is a wound and I think you know there's a story.

The story that I share in the prioritization chapter about a client who I call Andre and he talked about how he has single mom who was working multiple jobs she did work doubles every day except for Sundays they would go to church together Sunday morning and then they'd have brunch together afterwards growing up and he loved and respected his mother so much it was you know he wanted to protect her so much and he could aren't you could really rationalize that her working these double shifts was her way of priori

prioritizing him I he understood that but it didn't it didn't move him away from what the desire to be prioritized by her through time spent.

Gosh this is a neglect I mean there's no way he could not to some degree have been a little more neglected because she was kicking butt to take care of him but still what you're saying it's still okay yeah and that and that's the heart rate it's like to but to get to that place to say I wanted to be

to be prioritized more through time spent period we don't have to throw mama under the bus we don't have to talk badly about her we can honor and respect and still love and also still say that you did not have the experience of feeling prioritized in the way that you wanted to

yeah period right and that's you know it makes sense then as adults right he was deprioritizing his partner you know so understanding origin wounds can tie some of that together but the point I think that we're on right now is we are so good at distracting ourselves away from the pain so even if it's harder for us to identify what the wound is I was just in my book club and I was talking about the path of how we

cover conceal our wounds and some of it is where we have a hard time identifying what the actual wound is but sometimes in the big story right in the like I know exactly what my pain is I know exactly what my wounds are one of the ways that we conceal or hide from it is because we get lost

talking about the facts talking about the bigness of it right we're in the storytelling of our pain which becomes a distraction away from actually connecting to our pain right goodness yeah

so there's a number of ways in which we can kind of move away from actually acknowledging kind of getting like into the tender spots of what our actual pain is and I know it's hard work and I know sometimes we get scared I think especially the I was just talking to somebody on another show about the high achievers like no no no trauma no pain like got to keep going this is you know this is the driver this is the motivating for

time for that right no that's going to that's going to make me lose my edge I'm going to you know lose track I'm not going to be able to move forward and again to identify what our fears are what our our insecurities are about moving into this work is really

and I want to get into how we can see oh because that's where I am going to that's where I need to dig in on my own work but I wanted to I get the chance to talk to you about it first I do want to I mean we're 20 minutes in right now

and the honest to God thing that really caught hooked me in your book was and again I think this is right at the beginning but I it's it was the it was the you had me right there was the aspect of acceptance attachment over authenticity to me it felt like oh my gosh this is the biggest ball of wax right here and I think what hit me Vienna is just realizing that

we can't not so set up the premise you're saying as kids as as in our upbringing we are going to pursue acceptance affirmation all the A's all the all these things attachment is what you we're going to pursue that above our own authenticity and we really can't not that is just basic humanity but then when that becomes a habit which it kind of has to at that point then we find ourselves at whatever age whether it's 10 or 20 or 30

and we don't really know how to be authentic and that's honestly my story Vienna of real I I embraced some aspects of performance and people pleasing and I don't it's hard for me to bring up some great trauma but I just found out man if I do that I make people happy you know I get what I want if nothing else maybe it was selfish to some degree even I embrace that to the point until I came to a point of burnout and realize oh my gosh to beat I don't even know what authentic to myself looks like

and I that's a big question I want to ask you but let's go back to that just you're share that aspect of that reality of what you're saying is we all by proxy in our upbringing with that operating system we are going to gravitate towards seeking attachment and that is going to eclipse us being authentic and from that it feels like it's it's pretty common that you're not even going to know what your authentic self is much less how to operate in it.

mm hmm yeah I think there's certainly circumstances where we might have a family system where authenticity is welcomed and there isn't there doesn't need to be that trade but I think that there are probably more environments in which.

you know I say these are our lifelines authenticity and attachment when we're kiddos and a doctor goblor Mate talks about how if it is attachment that is threatened.

authenticity has to be traded right and so this idea of like you know when we're tiny little humans in the world to be myself to honor that means that I lose you or to be connected to you means that I have to lose myself right and that happens far too often I wouldn't say that it happens to every single person but it happens far too often right to.

believe that I need to exit who I am in order to stay connected to you because we need that as kids that's our survival of course we do of course we choose attachment over authenticity we want to be accepted we want to be love we want to be safe we want to be taken care of right our our need for survival exists there.

and it is in that space though where I say in the book that we learn to you know self betray it's where we learn to self abandon it becomes the way of existing in the world to your point right so you became a you know please are or a performer perfectionist you know it's like I became.

easy going and needless.

I thought it was I thought and I'm struggling not to continue thinking this is what I have to break I felt valiant in it being honestly I felt that in and just take me out I can take what I had a friend say that do you just take whatever

anybody dishes out and you just don't react you can just you know like in that the kind of minute as a compliment maybe but I when I heard that I thought oh because as I'm growing into this you know what's the authentic me self betrayal was I thought that was being that's what you do you take.

care of stuff you don't let yourself get in the way which may be good if you're in battle or something like that but an intimate relationships it didn't work and I was at the cusp of realizing that yeah and you know we don't have to get a deep into your story but I know you were saying I don't know that there's sort of this catalyst this event in which I was required to do that but it's what I want to offer here is that sometimes it's through experience in which this happens but also sometimes it's through observation you know maybe you watched some of the

someone in your family system self betray in some way or exist in an in authentic way and that became something that you wound up absorbing again that might not be true for your story but I think for any of the listeners who are like well but nothing nobody ever forced me to do this or that but yeah but did you watch someone you loved

live that way well it even even the culture as you were talking about attachment me and I started thinking about and I don't want to piss off the wrong people that can actually kill me but I literally started thinking about military forces guys you know all the all the manly stuff and what is there mantra man it is it is the core above all else it is the team above all else we don't we don't think there's no emotions there's no family there's almost no god man it is just I mean that desire for attachment that we applaud as a culture

I mean so who knows how much of that a movie I saw or a TV show or a group of people in that kind of and I look at that like yeah and I grab onto that and all of a sudden man there's no place for authenticity you are about attachment you're about belonging which as you talk about is our core desire and how to belong and be authentic almost I think for a lot of people here in this right now you can feel like that's impossible does I mean you got a you got patients in front of you all the time that have got a feeling

like I have no I have no I had a therapist I have no file for that I have no file for that is that where you find a lot of our culture right now even if they hear the message yeah I mean I think it's it's so scary because of what the fear of the loss is right what the threat is to us because when you grow up again internalizing doesn't

have to even mean that someone said it out loud to you or you know that you had some massive experience of it but internalizing that I

need to be this way fill in the blank whatever it is I in order to be safe connected close validated approved of loved accepted whatever right the idea of now as

adults stepping out and saying okay this is but I actually disagree with you or oh this is actually how I'm

feeling you know that that was so hard for me to do I was such a need you know I show this earlier my parents divorce so

chaotic on this fly under the radar have no needs pretend to be unaffected pretend to be fine all the time

because that's the best way to move through this this scenario and that made me into a needless woman who

similarly was you know kind of existing in the cool girl persona which meant again I had no needs I

was unaffected by things yeah whatever you want to do that's totally fine by me don't worry about me

over here right and what happened with that meant that I was constantly boundaryless right I was constantly

avoiding where the line was for me where I had a preference what was acceptable what was respectful I

was in a relationship in mid late 20s and the guy was dating I thought I was going to really saw a

future with him his ex came back into the picture and he was trying to decide whether or not to go back

into a relationship with her or to stay in the relationship with me and boom there it was oh my gosh of

course take all the time you need this must be so hard for you done it all right yeah it's like it's

hard to to say it out loud even now we're like oh that's a bit cringey you know it's a bit it's a bit hard

and yet of course I said that because I was so scared to say I was affected to say that I didn't

like something to say that this didn't feel respectful because what that meant was no no there's

no room for that one the other layer of it is that my I alluded to this there was well part of my

worthiness wound generated from my dad when I was really easy going in love connection the

help support all that was really available to me when I was difficult or I stepped out a line

quote unquote a k a being a teenager I then I would be punished through silent treatment and so

that would go on for days or weeks sometimes and I really learned again it was kind of restored

there that have no needs don't step out don't express yourself right just be easy going pretend like

things are fine go along with what he says that's how you get your attachment and if you step out of

that then you lose connection you know you lose the relationship fast forward to what I was just

saying about this partner at the time I was like too threatening to say anything because the fear was

if I do this will end I get to a point in it where I have this big aha moment of like wow I'm still

in the role that I was in as a child going through that divorce and I wind up calling and saying hey

you know I I feel disrespected I this is actually not okay I'm not okay with what's going on

and I'm going to remove myself from the scenario my part is beating out of my chest my palms are

sweating we have to understand that for someone for decades who has never said I'm not okay

that was a profound moment in my life to say I'm not okay I'm not good with what's going on here

and to take a stand for myself right to say like no there's a boundary that's being crossed

and you know that that was it like this was a huge catalyst for me or it's like oh it's okay to

say this out loud it's okay to be not okay to say things that are not fine when they're not fine

and it's speaking to the authenticity right is to be fully expressed in what is true and

honest for you and that's what what that moment was for me was really stepping into the authentic

expression of what I was actually feeling and knowing that authenticity there's a risk right

I think sometimes we want to kind of package it in some way where okay as long as the outcome is

what I want it to be you know the outcome was that the relationship ended the outcome was I never

spoke to him again that was the end of it that was it right it's like I had to be okay with an

out an unwanted outcome I had to be okay with leading with my authenticity being more important

than trying to control an outcome I want to ask about that but I do real quick though

on the on your story of being you know okay with not

being okay and some of those corrections as you have we use the term you know overcoming a lot

we have overcomers groups and we understand that I always I often struggle with that because the

overcoming I think we tend to think of as eradicating so do you now say okay so now I'm aware of all

this stuff and it just I'm good it all comes it all comes easy now it's natural I've totally

reprogram myself or is it more of no now that I'm aware I I still tend to react very similarly

naturally but I can real quickly or almost automatically get to the point of self-correction

is is that fair or do you feel like yeah okay yeah I would probably go more with the latter in

that yeah with growth and healing and all these things right it's and in the quote unquote

overcoming it's a non-linear thing I think once we set when I talk about that story off and talk

I don't know if you ever like cop cross-country skiing or not but just sort of the idea like when

you're on fresh powder it's got to work hard right and you're getting that track going when there's

a track they're already for you why easier right here's this is familiar I know how to do this I

don't have to work as hard that moment in me saying I'm not okay this feels disrespectful right

actually having an expression of authenticity for myself at that time was me jumping off the tracks

and jumping into fresh powder right and it was hard but I set the track in motion which meant

it was a little bit easier as I continued on with it does it mean I never turn back

absolutely not does it mean in all of this work that I'm like I'm never activated and I'm never

reactive in my old ways of being never present themselves of course not they do but to your point

we have a deeper awareness of it that you maybe you've heard of the this is pretty famous quote

that's attributed to Victor Frank Franklin between stimulus and response there is a pause right

and in that pause is sort of this gateway to our freedom that pause starts to extend and why

I talk about the extension of that pause the pause gets a little bit longer the more that we understand

our family of origin the pause gets a little bit longer the more that we understand our origin

the pause gets a little bit longer once we kind of connect to oh I see that the unresolved pain

for my past is playing out in this way right so instead of just these automatic reactions

activations behaviors right we actually get to hang out in that pause for a moment and and say

okay is what I'm about to say or do an extension of let's just say authenticity or inauthenticity

is it an extension of where like peace or suffering within the context of my healing and expansion

goals right it's like it's in that space where I get to bring my awareness my self-reflection

and be at that point of going down the path that I know that's familiar or we're like we're

going a little bit harder right kind of challenging this piece and being able to lean towards what

my goals are that okay I want to give people a couple resources right on that because as you're

talking about the Victor Frankl quote in that middle point is you know that story that we that

meaning we attribute to something and a lot of folks probably heard it but if they didn't we

had Kendra Hall on the show in her book I think it was change your story change your life talks

about that and we just recently had Michael Hyatt on and his mind your mindset so if you want to

go further into what Vienna just talked about I mean you talk about that in their book in your

book but then they have a whole book about it to go deeper on there okay well so you hit on I

mean another bombshell of a topic to me then is defining authenticity and then I've struggled with

this I struggle with this I struggle with how people perceive that because I mean I've been studying

this for a long time I've got you on here I mean I think I get the concept and yet as a

culture I feel like it also gets lost somewhat in the well to paint the quick analogy it's just

the I want to be just can you just love me for who I am right that kind of feeling people judge

can I just all the self-help stuff and all this you know behavior modification when can I just

can you just love me for who I am and I'm thinking about my kids and my kid I'm never not going to

love my kid right now though the kid may be being a little but and I don't really like your behavior

and I kind of feel like I don't even like who you're being right now and I want to play with that

a little bit because I feel like people I we get lost and what really is being authentic because

there is a place for well I'll just ask you to play with that there's a place for behavior

modification that you going because if I'm just truly unfiltered authentic I could be like

Tourette syndrome man you do not want to hear every thought that comes out of my head in a conversation

in a relationship because if it's unfiltered a lot of times it could just be mean can be selfish

and there's that place like to do just what you talked about to stop and go okay wait a minute

take a deep breath you just heard something something happened you know how are you going to react

and and yet there's people that feel like well gosh if I have to perform then that's not being

authentic play with that because it feels like a tension that I don't feel a lot of us have

a good grasp on how that really works to be authentic but to also be sensitive to others

yeah the first thing that comes to mind is is the concept that love can be unconditional but

that relationships must have conditions in order for them to thrive I say that again I mean that

right there's a big statement say that again yeah love can be unconditional but relationships

must have conditions in order for them to thrive goodness okay that's a big statement and that's

to me is the discerning line of what you're talking about right this idea of yeah of course I can love

someone who I love right I will likely always love you right I mean you spoke to your child right

the parent child relationship which I think is you know one where most people are like yes of course

unconditional love unconditional love right but we can have unconditional love for other humans

in our lives too it's just that we must have conditions to the relationship right otherwise

people say take me as I am or leave me with method you know or something exactly yes exactly you

know that's it's such a I can't stand those quotes that I see sometimes circulating the internet

they're just like if you can't love me at my worst then you don't deserve me at my best and it's like

no that's a way to avoid doing the work that you need to do you know it's like

that's a that's a distraction away and it's I understand I understand the premise I understand

what people are saying it's like in my darkest right in in my my challenging parts um you know

can you not just run the other direction I get that but it's just so much more nuanced I have a

story for you um I in the beginning before I was engaged to my now husband um I was in a conflict

with Connor and no clue what the conflict was about I couldn't tell you any details about it other

than I could not stop proving my point I could not stop the need to be right and I was going he's

like I got it yeah I understand I'm going again doubling down it's like hey I got it I understand

what you're saying going again tripling damage couldn't shut up I just kept going needed to be

right I had this out body moment in it where like see myself behaving this way and I'm like like

like if that part could speak it would have been like please stop talking like take a back pull

back in reel it in you know please quit this is not you know an attractive way of existing in the

world and stop and then eventually finally it ends and I remember feeling a lot of shame and embarrassment

and Connor actually you know what struck me in it was how grounded he was and how much I still

felt loved by him um he was not into the behavior for sure but I I didn't I didn't feel him waver

in terms of I I love you and I care about you and I'm here and I'm not going anywhere those words

weren't spoken but I felt that and I remember thinking okay shame embarrassment and then if I'm

being really honest was like yeah guys like I don't I wonder if this guy is going to want to stay

with me and certainly if I keep behaving this way this is not a great recipe right and so instead

staying in the shame and the embarrassment though I got very curious about like what does needing to

be right improving my point serve and so this is kind of a two-part process of two hour point about

there needing to be conditions to relationships right it's like no that behavior does not get to

just exist and persist and I have to pretend as if that's not going to damage the quality of my

relationship at some point of course it will and of course then it's like oh no that's outside

of the conditions for us to have a thriving partnership you can't just keep doing that but instead

of just like okay well then screw you or cut the cord and we're out of here there was a curiosity

okay what does this behavior serve because spoiler alert our behavior serves things even when

it's dysfunctional stuff and what I was able to connect to and I shared this already about my

story was that I grew up with manipulation gas lighting in my family system not directed at me but

I watched it it was very crazy making for my mom and from a really early age I understood that

unless I track things unless I am quite literally right about the details I am unsafe if I'm

right I'm safe if I'm not right I'm unsafe right and that was again such a profound kind of a

hot light bulb moment for me to be like okay makes a lot of sense why this part gets activated in a

conflict like I said it had no clue what the conflict was about but the need to be right and prove

my point was my way of creating safety for myself now okay behavior makes a whole heck of a lot of

sense when you understand my history my family system and my origin stories but fast forward

guess what Vienna you can't just behave that way in partnership with this person who is not

manipulating you who is not gas lighting who is not you know creating any type of unsafe

environment for you and I had to shift from like this shift into the mature wise adult

experience right is you know it obviously it takes work and we earn it and all of that but there

is something about being able to reflect on the things that we do that are disconnectors right the

things that we do right how we contribute to whatever the relationships are whether it's partnership

whether it's our own children whether it's our own parents in this you know later chapter of life

whether it's our friends our colleagues strangers on the street whatever it might be right to see

the ways in which we are contributing to the the disconnection the demise the dysfunction of

the dynamic and I think I was looking at your Facebook or I'm sorry your Instagram feed

which I'll probably say it's in the intro but you've got I don't know 700 800 thousand people

on there something like that and I also saw one I've got Terry real on on the feed because he was on

the show and he a couple of his posts today were about the wise adult as opposed to I think he says

the maladaptive child is that sound right yeah yeah yeah that sounds right okay then I'm showing

up as because as you're sitting there talking and telling the story I'm thinking about it's so easy

to think about on the condition and I'm gonna say you're quote again love can be unconditional but

relationships must have conditions in order to survive and I'm thinking of a little kid you know

on the playground and somebody does something maybe it's not super nice and they hit

and you come over and go okay Sally you know it's if you're doing a good job I guess you would

validate hey I'm I'm sure what you know what what Barbara did was upsetting to you but you just

we can't hit we can't hit that's something and even if you are like you were talking each or even

if you were being gaslighted or manipulator why are you still don't it's still not socially

acceptable to hit but there's something in there where we still missed it or we tend to because

we'll tend to come over to the kid just say hey you just be nice just be nice just curve it

can it whatever just and we're not and is that where we go wrong because we're not validating the

kids feelings are our own feelings even though you can't do that behavior so how do we feel like

that's what you're saying how do we authentic to ourself and validate and and work within those

feelings and yet still realize that if we're gonna be in a relationship though we don't just

obviously unmodified unfiltered but you know but people are saying that this is my authentic self

except it's it's generated from their pain you know that's that's not so it's my so it's my

so it's my this is my authentic wounded self and you're saying no one you can be authentic in your

what in your well because to that quote right that we're circling around is like if you loved

me enough you would just right fill in the blank you wouldn't leave me to well if you loved me

enough my infidelity wouldn't push you away if you loved me enough me being emotionally abusive

wouldn't be enough for you to go you know right like the and I know those are these are very

significant examples of course and yet we know that people say those types of things or you know

if you love me you wouldn't leave me just because I will not face my addiction if you love me you

will not do this because of that right like that is something that is often communicated whether

it's explicitly stated or whether it's implied by the other person and again to that quote that

we keep coming back to right where it's like well this is who I am well okay maybe maybe yeah

this is who you are in this moment but essentially what you're saying is I'm not going to touch

any of my your resolution and because relationships ought to be unconditional because that would be

the premise right is that not just love right the relationship ought to be unconditional I don't

have to do anything about my your resolution and you need to love me anyway you need to choose

me anyway you need to stay with me anyway and so love me anyway maybe sure I think we all love

people who maybe are not going to face certain things or they're not going to change up something

I still love you okay but here's how I'm going to navigate this relationship with you knowing

that that's not something that you're going to shift or change okay right but this idea that

especially in intimate relationships right this this idea that nope this is my authentic self

right is again it's it's the blocker you know it's why relationships will keep ending right it's

why you know people can't actually get closer to you right I think authenticity is on the other side

resolution yeah you got me again thinking about yeah we want to be is that crying to be unfiltered makes

me think there was a a movie there's a popular movie and and they're on this planet and whatever

the men think is it comes out audibly whatever they think comes out audibly it's kind of you know

kind of funny but it was an action venture kind of thing and and that would be terrible again I

mean the thoughts that and we can get into you know a spiritual aspect or or what not there but

I mean we had some crazy thoughts to go on our head especially in our culture where we see

everything and I'm aware that sometimes man some of the most vile thought will just kind of run

through my head and I had a guy one time telling me you can't just crucify yourself for that you're

just it hopefully don't don't take action you know on that but we don't want that to come through

in your statement of oh you got me thinking about being unresolved of the unresolved things and

I'm and when I'm acting out of that that's not that's not maybe it's authentic but it's not

whole it's not healthy it's not helpful that's okay in the other statement that you said in this

segment segment of the book that really got me and I don't know that I can even unpack it well

enough so I'll take advantage of having you here now she said when and this may be my paraphrasing

so when you get the validation so when you are not being authentic and you're just

externally trying to you know manage other people's emotions and deal with that and you get the

validation and affirmation and acceptance by performing from these folks now you don't trust

yourself or this is what got me or the person you're getting the validation from and so I'm

thinking great I just sabotage both of us I just screwed me and I screwed you in the relationship

because say that in a way because I that's my that was my notes of paraphrasing I should have pulled

out what you said but in essence if you're not being you know all healthily authentic to yourself

and you're just people pleasing and performing and trying to make people happy out here you are

sabotaging yourself you're not being authentic to yourself and now you don't trust them because

their reaction to you you know is based on a lie in essence that sucks that's terrible that's

a really crappy it's a it felt like oh that's that's really in that's enlightening honestly Vienna

is what I think right yeah I mean I think I think you did a great job summarizing it in essence

that take a little bit further it that when you have to perform please fake it in some way in order

to get the love the connection validation the approval and that you then get it your system

still knows that it's not real yeah because you got what you wanted sure but you got it by

being someone other than who you are that's harsh your system knows it's not real I mean

yeah your system knows what's up we could spend the next two hours talking about my this has been

who I chose to be and I was in pretty much every relationship and I think it's why I struggle

with the trust issues okay I want to give this whole conversation not a caveat but a premise here

because this is really I think it's chapter two of the book that you know you came to this book

you came to this topic the origins of you because your patients like me you know we come in

we got a problem marriage is in trouble I'm feeling depressed I'm whatever fix what's happening

right now we're looking forward and you I think you shared in the book one patient like oh great

you're gonna make me go back into the past like all the therapists do and you're like yes and so

if we if we come back to yes you are you are behaving from the unresolution in your past from the

operating system that you were given I was thinking about my kids they have Miller 1.0 sorry guys

I mean that's what I mean for better and worse there's good enough but they they've got that

and if you're going to fix what's happening now it is a result of what you've been doing in the past

and again I appreciate you saying it's not to go vilify your parents your caregivers or whatever

but even if they were the best people on planet earth they were limited they were ignorant

they were you know they they only knew what they unresolved yeah they they couldn't be perfectly

healthy and you're part of that so as we all look at the things that we're struggling with right now

you're saying that we looking forward is well I guess you would say that's symptomatic yeah

yeah and as I say too like cool look forward let's see like try it you know I don't I don't mind

trying it right and I think that there are certain things that we might be able to change just like

that because we've decided to get really disciplined with something and we can make that behavioral

change and beautiful okay so if that's there fine we don't need to look back okay but if you

keep coming back which um spoiler alert a kind of thing that's all yeah so I'm like I'm fine

for you to say nope I can make this very cool let's see I'll see you back here in you know a few

months and they will we'll dive in a little bit differently and yeah you're right I speak to this

in in that first story that I share outside of my own with Natasha um which is like I don't I'm

trying to decide whether I want to stay with my partner Clyde we're about to get engaged you know

what what should I I just have this icky feeling that the other shoe is going to drop at some point

and I'm like okay well great let's did the other shoe drop in past relationships in your family

of origin and exactly as you said a lot of therapists always need to go back there like I'm

focused on this I you're not going to find anything there I had a perfect childhood etc etc and

then finally right there's this opening that happens and she shares with me a story about when

she was a teenager her she had to use her dad's computer and he had said yes but there was

an email open oh yes she stumbled upon an email thread between her father and a woman who

was in her mother that was expressing all about love and how great the weekends were and can't

wait to see you again and all of this and it just shattered her image he walks in on her he sees

her with tears in her eyes says I promise I'll cut it off but please don't tell your mother

she never tells her mother the way in which she copes with it is by going on and absorbing

this betrayal and placing it somewhere inside of her but far away because she's had to she's had

to deny it and she's had to hide it and she's had to really forget it in order for the family

system to go on as it was before and so it actually makes quite a bit of sense why it was hard for her

to even name that there was another shoe that had dropped in her family of origin this was the

first time that she had shared it with anybody was to me and because you understood that it was

almost gone from her because she had hidden it for so long so well but it cracked it open to see

that that unresolved pain right the fact that there was this betrayal the fact that she had held

her father on a pedestal this man who would come home from work have have meals with his family

seemingly was happy loved loved the family all this shattered her image of him was dictating

this storyline that the other shoe was going to drop in all of her relationships and the way that

she dealt with it prior to this relationship was that she would prematurely exit those relationships

maybe she'd sabotage something but she'd find a way to exit and you know cut the connection and

the intimacy and all that until this and so it required us to tend to the unresolved pain the

origin wound around trust for her so that she could actually get into that wise mature adult space

to choose a path forward with him and you know I think it's to the point that both of us are

making is that there is stuff in our past and childhood okay it could be four five six it could be

14 it could be you know it's like it can happen anywhere and sometimes origin stories happened

two weeks ago right as possible I want to hit I want to hit that Vienna because something that I

had never considered before reading your book was in that and so in looking kind of back to the wounds

kind of thing and looking at those origins I think I was I tend to think of the ongoing things

we're all looking back and going okay ongoing day to day week to week month month the years go by

you know what were those things that happened and that programmed us and whatever and then but you

talked about and and I didn't know where this was in the book but in essence how how profound

firsts are things that happened and I thought holy smokes how often do we talk about that event

that happened it was the first day of school first day in a new school the first day at college first

day at the job first day going out to to football tryouts the first those first where we are in an

emotionally sensitive place we're probably got some fear some insecurity and then especially if

something like you could probably say good or bad if you were dramatically applauded that it kind

of set holy smokes this is everything and maybe you went after something and that became yourself

image and it shouldn't happen that was you know on a seemingly good note or on the other side where

it was tragic and it was just a moment and I think about some of those yeah then I've had some

of those in my adulthood that were first that were so significant so again going back and trying to

connect with some of the wounds that caused us an unresolution that then caused the patterns that

they could be it happened from one moment and it programmed you and yeah as you said it might

happen at five it might have happened at 35 and I I have not taken that into account I literally

it I read that I think it was yesterday that section and I thought dang there's another audit

I need to do let me go back and think about some of the firsts in my life first child first what

and and think about how what's going on there what do I have yeah those first and then the first

time that you didn't feel good enough the first time you didn't feel like you belonged right I

share a story um of a a client of mine where he he had shared that at some point in middle school the

girl he liked um he had heard that she said that she would have she would have liked him if he

were taller oh that's it period and that that that alone right was dictating and his sense of

worthiness he'd go on to be someone who needed to become friends with women before he would date them

so that there was more like um investment because otherwise his height didn't feet you know was

was so significant in his mind right so that like if we're more invested then maybe you will overlook

this right and it traces right it's like here's this the kind of throwaway comment in middle school

um but no no it's actually not right because here's this thing that pierces us in a particular way

and then somehow comes along with us in ways that maybe we're not even aware of like oh yeah like

I'm recalling that thing you know it's like if we're not to your point taking those audits

enough to like hang on you know like what put my worth into question you know how was I valuable

to the people around me right was I valuable when I was the comic relief was I valuable when

I was helping mom when she was sad right was I valuable when I was a phenomenal athlete and that's

what made mom happy you know it's like to really look closely at those things that maybe we haven't

yeah okay you just said the word worth and literally part two of your book starts off with that

and I was very impacted by some of the questions that you put in the book

that was one of them in the aspect of self-worth which has been somewhat of a thread here on the

shows as of late talking about that and it has for me personally which is why it is on the show

because I get to talk about what I want and what I need I should say and in that aspect of worth

the question that you had I think you had a patient setting or something like that a group setting

or maybe it was what you were asking individual patients to finish this sentence I'm unworthy

because and just sit and they and you had people shouting out stuff and it's all these insecurities

that I have not met a human yet who does not have an insecurity and really who does not have one

that you can kind of see you can all see each other so that'd be a great one to ask our friends

to fill it hey I should ask my buddies you know hey Randy so finish the sentence as of me

Kevin's unworthy because and say what you what you wouldn't he would give a list my wife would give

a list my some my kids would probably give a list and they see my insecurities we think we're hiding

them which is part of your actually that I guess before part two in your book and you have a list of

the ways that we conceal and then the cost of concealing and again I'm that's why you're on

the show we're talking about it but I got some work to do to dig into those and how we're concealing

and the cost of concealing and and I always think and people see my people who know me they know how

what I'm doing they know my insecurities they know how I'm concealing it I'm not fooling anybody

but myself and so to answer that question I'm unworthy because feels well life changing which I

guess is what you see with your patients yeah yeah do you do you know how you'd answer it

I'm unworthy because it would feed into perfection I try to earn my worth by the things that I do

I I'm unworthy because well what I what I notice say now I wouldn't have in the past is I

naturally okay this is so this is just my admission I'm unworthy because I'm not limitless

because sometimes there are relevant excuses and which I don't even like the word I mean

it's a counseling session here you can yeah you can invoicing no thank you for letting me flip

the script for a second because I think it's you know it is a power when I think for the high

achievers and the perfectionists and and those who you know maybe have found a way to you know

accomplish yeah quite a bit in their lives I'm unworthy because I haven't even though I spent

probably longer preparing for this interview with you than most anybody that you're going to talk

with which I think is why people listen to the show but I still show up and kind of feel like an

imposter even though I know we're gonna turn the thing on and we're gonna do a show and we're

gonna do a great show and you know hundreds of thousands people can listen to it I still

show up feeling like I haven't done enough because that's part of my I was part of my life as a

pro cyclist I didn't I haven't done as much as the other I'm not prepared enough so I'm at the

suffer more so yeah again back into that whoo there it is oh it's so good well it is it can't

acknowledge it yeah acknowledge it that way yeah and yeah and then it's doing the work of it

and then which is I mean gosh isn't that the the title of I think one of the ending points of your

book well I have to pull it pull the contents up here is then and that's where I was I was

actually reading this morning is how to take all this and make it stick your reclamation is what

you titled the last part of it is making it stick yeah I do want to hit a big thing just I come from a

I'm gonna say a heavily religious background I'm not gonna but I think this is something that has

infiltrated our entire culture at least in America and I think beyond that and I'm actually

gonna pull out a scripture because it's so invasive which sounds like a bad a bad term but

it's Matt it's in Matthew so in the Bible book a Matthew 22 37 through 40 you so love the

Lord your God with all your heart with all your soul with all your mind this is the great

and first minute and the second is you shall love your neighbor as yourself I grew up

with that statement and it wasn't just like preached for my parents or whatever but that was the

context of the south the Bible belt the church the Christianity that I grew up in you shall love

your neighbor as yourself get a nobody ever talked about how you love yourself didn't exist

and so I think the whole effort was a performance for most for me for most of us it's a performance

to go out love others I love myself I don't love myself I have no idea how do you know who the

hell I am and I'm supposed to go love and so I'm just I'm trying I'm pouring out of a broken crack

cup here and that I mean we are a nation that's you know founded on a lot of that religion and I'm

sure I'm not pointing anything at the religion I'm saying that's a great that's a great line

that we don't know how to translate it feels like and it feels like that's on the crux here

yeah I mean when you read it the first thing I thought was well if you hate yourself then you're

going to hate others right and you know yeah to your point like what does it look like to love

and accept ourselves to actually know how to be with ourselves right I love but the notion so

powerful to I kind of hear it is um and probably unsurprisingly right it's like I I to see

ourselves to remember to see others you know in the way in which we are seeing ourselves which

kind of points to one of the parts at the end of the book where I share an exercise from Michael

Kerr is a psychotherapist researcher author he says to try this to think of your mothers your

grandmother's daughter and see what changes right to see how that perspective shifts and so when

you say I love yourself to love thy neighbor in the way that you love yourself right it's like

that that lens of we all are we're tiny little humans in flawed and imperfect systems and if you

can remember that about your neighbor you know what shifts if you can remember that about yourself

what shifts if you can remember that about the people you care about what shifts and um

but to your point at this concept of you know what is self love it's like I I think self love is

the intersection of compassion and grace for the self meaning like the human experience that

we are flawed and imperfect with accountability and ownership compassion and grace with

accountability ownership it reminds me Tom Ziegler who often co-hosts with me his statement of

having the highest standards and the deepest grace for ourselves that's right that's right we must

right because one without the other is you know it it it doesn't work that way right to to love

ourselves well means that we can hold the grace and compassion for ourselves that's needed for

every human on this planet while also making sure that accountability and ownership are intersecting

with that because we can't just be like oh I'm a human sorry right and we can't just be like

oh the war you know and I have to be accountable and never offer ourselves the space to be seen

as this imperfect flawed human existing in these systems and I think when we get pretty good at those

pieces intersecting that's where you know love for the self can happen because I think love gets

generated from seeing ourselves do things differently and operate in our in the world and in

relationships in a way in which we can hold our head up high and that doesn't mean that we don't

have history and stories where maybe we hang our heads of course we do right there's things we

look back and are like oh my goodness I can't believe I did that or I said that so immature you know

my insecurity was in the dry or see that's every single person story of course it is right but to be

able to pick that head up to hold it up to believe and to exist in the world where you're like I'm

proud of myself right like I'll make mistakes I'll continue to make mistakes but I will look at

those mistakes I'll find a way to own them and might take me a couple weeks a couple days maybe a

couple months right for some maybe years right but like I am on I'm committed to that and that I

think is where love for the self can bud I've got other questions and they're going to be a great

fit in part two we talked I I just brought us into some spiritual aspects I've got a parenting

question for you but it's going to be a great fit for for part two be it it's it's this is a

this is a top shelf book for me I'm eager to I'm grateful that I got to dig into it now for us to

talk through it and now I'm eager to dig in because I've got some pieces that I want to understand

more than I didn't I wasn't aware of so thank you thank you for what you've done for doing the

work to bring this book to light and this message out I'm all a grateful recipient and I'm really

proud to bring this to the audience thank you thank you thanks for joining us in this discussion

that again is Vienna the i.e. and in a Farron and you can find her anywhere just type her name in

and you'll find her all over the place again big social media following really big on Instagram

and the book that I referenced is the origins of you how breaking family patterns can liberate

the way we live and love well till next time here's to you and me making a better meaning in

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