How To Deepen Relationships With Well Constructed Questions w/ Experience Design Architect Topaz Adizes

Welcome. I'm Kevin Miller. This is a podcast about how we make meaning of live and experience the miracle of living in this episode how to deepen relationships with well-constructed questions.

So cultural testimony right now is that while we are in more contact with people than ever we're also feeling more isolated disconnected and lonely.

That's not some broad brush opinion of mine, but I continue to get the research and surveys to back this up and just be a person out in the world experiencing other folks.

We seem to be a culture so hungry to be heard and understood and loved and from this we become a culture that works so hard to tell.

We want to tell our opinion in our viewpoint and thoughts and feelings and be accepted and affirmed and we ask fewer and fewer questions and have fewer and fewer questions ask of us.

But this isn't a focus on simply asking more questions but asking meaningful questions that foster true connection.

So my guest calls them well-constructed questions. Topaz Adezis is an Emmy award winning writer, director and experienced design architect really like that label.

He's an Edmund Hillary fellow and Sundance school stories of change fellow. His works have been selected to cans, Sundance, IDFA and South by Southwest featured in New York magazine, Vanity Fair, The New York Times.

And he's garnered an Emmy for new approaches to documentary.

He is currently the founder and executive director of the experience design studio, The Skin Deep. There's my focus.

If you'll go to YouTube and search for The Skin Deep, you'll find his channel. He's got almost a million subscribers and on the channel you will see couples.

They may be married or parent and child or best friends or any pairing of two people desiring a close relationship and they take turns answering questions that Topaz and his team have prepared.

Questions that open each other up and connect.

So I just fascinate myself with the concept and really feel like I connected as you'll hear with Topaz.

He has a new book that digs into the concepts. It's called 12 questions for love, a guide to intimate conversations and deeper relationships.

You can also find a lot of offerings, including actual opportunities to get products to help you ask these questions in your life.

If you'll just go to skin deep.com.

So coming up next, my discussion with Topaz Adizes and questions that foster connection and love.

Let's see how we can make better meaning of our lives today.

Topaz, your book, just the headline, focused on questions.

I am at a point where I think questions have more gravity to me in my life than ever before.

So thank you for being here. Thank you even more for being awake at 2 a.m. in India to spend time with me. I'm incredibly honored.

It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me Kevin. I'm happy for this combo.

I want to get deep into questions, but let's let's, you know, into the type of questions and those types of things.

But I want to also from a 10,000 foot view, just look at questions.

I probably by accident, maybe, I mean, I grew up on how to win friends and influence people.

That type of construct. And we know that somebody here in their name is gold.

And asking them a question and getting them to talk about themselves.

And I knew that from an early age and employed that. And even here, you know, this is an interview style show.

I always have guests, my job in that way is to ask questions.

And so I've gotten to be known as a guy who asks questions.

Now we'll get in again to what type of questions.

But just over there questions, I am, I feel, and I'm going to ask you what your feeling is on the pulse of the culture that we're at a place where we ask less questions than ever, socially and relationally.

Well, tell me what, tell me your thoughts there.

No, absolutely. I think it's, you get good at what you practice.

And what are we practicing as a society now, especially because of social media?

Everyone's on their phones looking at their own silo reflection echoing back at them.

And everyone is talking on social media. No one's listening.

There's no practice of listening, really.

It's like hearing back the echo of your own opinion instead of actually having conversation with people that may or may not disagree with you such that you can create meaning.

But that comes out of having an uncomfortable conversation if you were because maybe we have a different perception of things.

So we're not practicing that discomfort of like making meaning of something through conversation.

We're getting the echo back of our own opinions and silos and that's not really listening.

You know, that's, I don't think we practice the art of actually listening.

I think a lot of the content we get are speaking at us and it's not the content we're seeing is not one that is a listing content.

It's just to move on that more.

Like if you look at our content that we have on YouTube and TikTok, it's two people talking.

See both their faces at the same time. We've done this for now in our 13th year over almost 1300 pairs now.

When you watch that, you're watching people listening to each other.

So you're watching content, not that you're being spoken at, but you're watching content that is listening to one another.

And you in turn are listening to what they're listening to, which is each other.

That gives us an opportunity to practice something different than what we've had before.

And I think that's what I hear in your question or your reflection about society.

Yeah.

Thank you.

You mentioned, you know, speaking at my good friend Jake Eagle.

He's the co-author of a book called The Power of Aw.

But I was just talking in conversation with him and he says, yeah, I went.

And we spent time with this couple and the guys, you know, some big pedigree astrophysicist and psychological bubble.

He says, he said, pretty neat guy, but he was just such a, and he found himself coming out with a word. He's such a teller.

He's just, he's constantly telling you, I've been more sensitive to that concept of if I'm doing that one.

And then how often I realize people are so fervent that seems and so focused on telling, telling they want to tell people what they know, what they think, what they did, what, and we tell and we tell and we tell.

And I sat in an airport restaurant not long ago and two guys that happened to sit down next to each other.

They start talking and one of them was a teller for 30 minutes.

And I thought when they left, the one guy knows a lot about this dude. This dude knows nothing about the other guy.

He just talked, this guy just told about stuff about himself. And I thought, neither of them really learned anything.

We didn't glean anything. We didn't, well, I think the biggest thing and I think what you seem to have such a magnifying glasses, there is no connection.

Yeah, I'm here. I'm right here. I'm right here. I'm right here.

Are we connecting? Yeah.

How we connect? Are we connecting? I would say is that at the heart of what you're seeing that we got lots of communication more than ever and less connection?

Absolutely.

I think, you know, Esther Perrell has a saying where the quality of your life has come measured to the quality of your relationships.

Okay, great. So how do you have quality relationships? Well, one way is have really good quality conversations.

Okay, great. How do you have quality conversations? That's where we come in my team and I from what we've done and what the work we've done for the last 12 years, now 13.

Is create the space and ask well constructive questions.

If you create the space where you and you ask well constructive questions, that creates incredible conversations where you're really exploring the dynamic between your relationship,

things that you may not have discussed before or realized before or always felt but couldn't articulate.

And that creates a great conversation, which then creates a stronger relationship, a more fulfilling relationship, a more joyful one, right?

And I think that's that's what I've learned. That's the journey I've been on, you know, it started off as an experiment, which worked.

And then we just kept doing it.

The experiment being bring in two people in room that knew each other, them facing each other,

giving them a few questions to ask each other and just filming it with three questions with three cameras, all right, filming it with three cameras.

And from that, I've just learned, okay, if you construct questions this way, if you sequence questions in this way,

if you create the space where we create the space where both can explore and there's permission to explore and they understand that that's what the space is expecting of them.

And what I mean by that is if your partner comes home today and goes, Kevin, why do you love me?

You're not wondering why you love your partner. You're wondering where is this coming from.

And similarly, if they come home and they say, Kevin, I love you so much from the stars, the moon, and you mean so that you're not really receiving it because you don't really know where it's coming from.

But if you pull out a box of car games and we're going to play this game and we shoot out a random question, the question is, why do you love me?

Now the space is being created for one to give them for one to receive, right, because that question of like, what's the context where it's coming from has been answered, we're playing a car game.

Or we're reading the book, 12 questions for love, let's ask these 12 questions. We've created a space, we have well constructed questions, now we can go and explore the space between us.

And oftentimes, what I find really interesting, especially like my friends, but like to pass, I've been married 30 years. I know everything about my partner.

You know, of course, I don't really need to ask these questions. I know every, I know what they're going to respond. It's, you know, my question is, well, are you the same person you were 32 years ago?

Have you not changed? Have you not grown? What makes you think the other person hasn't? What makes you think that your relationship is not changing grown?

Oftentimes, the people closest to us is who we take the most for granted, because we love them so much, we know they got our back, we know that, and we kind of don't mind, we don't tap in to the space between the relationships between us, which have so much power and energy and joy and ingredients to taste and explore to deepen our sense of living is ironic.

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Okay, let me ask a couple things to pass one is if I'm hearing this message right now.

And I'm thinking, okay, I'm hearing this and they're going to hear more and I realize, guys, I'm a teller. I tell a lot.

So I'm supposed to step back and ask questions. I interest myself in how we view our own identity amongst this is my identity at a place where I don't need to tell.

I don't have I don't have this voracious need to tell and be heard and be known and be validated and be affirmed and all these things.

Or even if I do just stop stop that there's either a I need I need to find some security in myself or I at least need to act in a way that I'm not so needy.

If I'm going to have an honest genuine authentic.

Yeah, what comes from you when you say that is for me it's less so about the teller and listeners more so about the given the take.

So in that conversation where you have two people in the airport, you know, restaurant and you heard that one was talking for 30 minutes.

So that person was in some sense, you can say they're giving they're giving all of their story the other ones taking because of listening you don't say the one who's telling you just.

Taking because they're taking the attention the other not really getting the inside of the other they're not finding out who the other person is just taking by taking the time the airways and.

So to me I think I think it's a dance it's like it's like it's a it's a dance it's a balance sometimes look I'm way more comfortable listening and in some sense that gives me more power because I'm sharing less they don't know so much about me but I know a lot about them right.

But that's in some sense one sided like I'm not giving back in some sense you can say the teller is actually being vulnerable and opening up and sharing and the listeners not sharing not giving back because they're not opening themselves up and sharing their own vulnerability.

So where is the dance where is the given take where is the mutual movement of sharing and sometimes you'll notice in a conversation where people deepen is that one person opens up it becomes vulnerable.

And not usually but what can happen is the other one then has taken the the one takes the lead and being vulnerable and the other one reflects that lead and matches it.

And then continually become more and more vulnerable so we get a sense of vulnerability and connection mutually or sometimes one person just becomes super vulnerable and the other one doesn't go down.

It doesn't go vulnerable just receives so for me it's less so about oh you're just a teller you talked a much it's more about are you giving and are you receiving whether that's sharing your giving your vulnerability or giving your time and attention in the listening.

Okay that brings up to me yeah one topaz I have definitely been guilty of sitting there asking questions.

Trying to think was I trying to remain in power I don't know possibly sometimes sometimes I think I just didn't really care.

I didn't really care about the relationship enough to share about myself so I'm just kind of passing the time and let you talk about yourself and there's not really care so now I find myself with two aspects one.

Of I got a budget in my time if I don't care why am I sitting here talking be honest enough and brave enough to get out of the situation and be be honest there to to question.

Do I have general general interest genuine interest and I would imagine that we look at this book sitting over my shoulder you know 12 questions for love that there's an aspect of.

I imagine with you and all the couples you work with are all the opportunities to work with people that there's some that you realize or maybe it the construct helps them realize.

We don't care enough or one person doesn't care enough does it just expose sometimes absolutely.

That's why sometimes you get people have a conversation and because of having a conversation they realize all the unsaid things are all the elephants in the room that they're not confronting.

You don't have to talk about it the fact that you're not talking about it everyone knows the feeling inside.

And so then how resilient is your relationship if you're not capable of talking about it.

How resilient is your relationship if you can't talk about it or if you know so you avoid it okay fine you avoid it but then life happens and something happens that forces you to contend with that that's been my experience that's what I've seen 50 years on this planet that.

You know you want to avoid something that's fine and you try to shut down that's fine and at some point life is going to throw something at you that forces you to face connection face reality of some sort of.

Force you to step out of your comfort zone so that you have you can grow.

You know how many relationships are there that they don't talk they don't talk about the real things they don't talk they let everything under the surface because they're scared.

They talk about it it will disrupt the relationship and break it okay how long can you do that for 10 15 20 years then something happens your parent gets sick there's an affair a child is you know guess in an accident.

Something happens that oh my god we cannot keep keeping everything in the closet hide hide you know under the surface repressed something's going to happen in life that forces you to deal with it.

And so then the question is how flexible am I are we both you know how flexible am I communicating how flexible am I in listening and.

Feeling on discomfort and sitting in my vulnerability how come how capable are we as a couple to sit in the discomfort the things we don't know the things that we're voicing how practical like you know it's like at the gym I mean you're athlete like if you had to go do a course that you know I you know the.

To order friends you can't just do that tomorrow you have to train for that for six months nine months a year right same thing in our relationship like how capable are you of dealing with the fires in your connection if you don't practice at the fireplace.

You know with the smaller fires amusing analogies here I hope you know I'm I'm I'm just thinking you know topaz in.

How I want to well let me go here you know so questions I'm going to put asking questions above telling.

Period as as a greater benefit or more opportunity for connection but let's go to the next step so I spent a lot of time.

Then crafting you know good questions even here on the show good question I got I got accolades in applause for you know good questions.

But when you said you know constructing well.

Constructing questions yeah really good question I wasn't always doing that I was sometimes asking questions that I knew good questions but I didn't care and I think that came through.

And I think the shift now I'm not asking a question list I really care I'm really interested enough to sit here and spend the time.

So a meaningful question it again just I think I'm just continually impacted by the power.

The next book is called the question of the answer that's the next book because we're so focused on the answer we don't realize all the powers in the question.

Yeah all the powers in question but we don't shape our questions we're not trained at shaping our questions.

And I think there's a good reason for that because frankly that's where the power is when you're in a business meeting and the CEO says ask the question why do the campaign fail all the powers in their hands.

Because now we're answering the question where the campaign failed but if that leader said wait what can we was this campaign a failure and what do we learn from it.

Or even like what what what what what it would be learned from this campaign and what could you improve next time.

The answers that is fetch from that question or the questions that the answers that are fetched from that question are way more empowering.

And so the one who yields a question has a lot of power but are we constructing them in a in a way that gives us answers that are empowering.

And I think there's a difference between well constructed questions and what you're saying is like meaningful questions and to me that comes from curiosity.

Like what I hear you saying is like I want to ask questions that I'm curious about maybe I'm not constructing them in my mind like you know in a linear fashion scientific fashion which we can talk about but I'm going to ask questions that I'm curious about because if I'm curious about that I'm really interested in the answer and feeling that and that gives meaning to it.

Right versus sometimes you just ask questions by time you don't want to open yourself up so you just ask questions to kind of there's many reasons why many times we don't share we just ask questions in your case maybe your board you don't want to participate so you just ask questions let them run.

I have another friend Jeff Wester wrote a book called ask which is which is incredible and you know he was young Jewish guy live in Connecticut and he was experiencing a lot of anti-semitism and so as a young kid he knew that the best way to hide was ask questions.

So he was just ask questions because that put all the offices on them and never on him so as a hiding is a wait to the hide and I think what I'm hearing from you is that a meaning because you're curious about it right you like actually curious and I in the list in the speaker can feel your curiosity.

One thing I've learned from making documentary films for 20 years I made documentary fiction films and you do a lot of interviews is that the interview is a reflection of the interviewer.

So let's say I'm interviewing someone and they're sitting there on the interviewer they're the interviewer and they're really nervous right the best way for me to get them to relax is for me to relax.

If I want them to share something vulnerable I share something vulnerable if I want them to break out of their formality maybe I'll drop a curse word to break the formality I'll be informal and then they will reflect me.

And maybe that's also similar when you're asking questions such is that in your own sharing you prime the other to reflect that if you're in a like meaningful conversation where you're both curious and you both are interested in developing your relationship.

And one thing I've learned from everything we do at the end we always bring people who have a relationship because they're both invested in that conversation.

The only time we bring strangers is when they're like on a blind date because then what they're invested in is possibly a spark of romance but bringing just two strangers together into a room.

Okay, interesting but we hit a little bit of a conflict or something why am I really invested in actually going deep there and really speaking my mind because I'm not going to see this person again.

So we kind of avoid that because the investment of the each participant has in the relationship is not that deep but if you go to a father and son they're really going to be in it because they have a relationship that's strong there's a lot of stake there.

Well, I want to be be candid in that I have used questions as a tool to hide no doubt and a tool to distract and if there's an audit done of me the amount of questions that I'm asked that I don't answer is probably higher than I would like to which brings me back to being more judicious with who I'm having conversations with.

And you know to begin with yeah let's let's go to you you mentioned meaning my focus.

My focus to pass is really around meaning how we create meaning and then how we connect connect with ourselves the present moment and with others and within that work something that I came to with help with I'm partnered with some folks too.

And I want to share it with you and because I'm betting that I'm tapping on something that you've known for a long time.

But it's it's been new to me back to the not just asking questions so here's my example.

So my 16 year old daughter pops over here today which she may.

She had some auditions for a play so normally being the good dad and the question asker I would say okay so her name is serene.

So I would say hey serene you know so how was the audition tell me about it and she would tell me now what is she telling me she's not really telling me about it she's telling me about her experience.

So now as I understand that and this go this part of this does go to the heart of what you have talked about in the book and even mentioned today.

She answers according to how I ask so if I say tell me about it she tells me about it but what she's really telling is her experience well let's cut that out now now what I ask because she knows this is something that we do out in the open and I'll say so serene how did you experience the audition.

And in the change that I see if I had you experience the audition oh it was how do you experience the audition and I do this with everybody now how do you experience that's my word how do you experience.

And you'll see them pause their body chemistry changes they usually look to one side of the other and what I realize they're doing is they are connecting with themselves.

It forces the question forces them requires them at least to connect with themselves well now I'm sitting there watching their brain work and they're talking with their emotion they're trying to formulate how did I experience.

I'm really interested now because I'm getting to go on this journey of to me it's intimate for them to come back with and the change in both of us.

I'm enamored with and I'm seeing the connection grow with my kids and with everybody else as a result of me changing how I ask the question and my answer is so genuine and so this is something that I've come to again with some other folks that were working on this but I see I look through your questions you guys are this is what you're doing you're requiring by proxy of the question formulation self discovery and now mutual relational discovery.

Fair absolutely absolutely absolutely I mean a simple example I say construct a quality question it's not asking the right question because every question is valid but some are stronger than others and the question is at what so if we're asking questions up to deep in your relationship to explore your relationship right.

If you start a question if your daughter came home and you started any of your questions with is are do would should like I don't care what comes after those words but like about the addition.

Did the addition go well would you like to go back and do the addition again should you have practiced more for the addition.

All those questions are inviting a binary response yes no.

Start the question with how did it go like you did you know what what what did it feel like so you start question what how why.

Where you're you cannot answer that question whatever it is with a yes or no with a binary response.

You know where where where did you feel you did the best of the addition.

You know what is a memory you'll never forget from that addition what was it like for you the experience any I don't just start with the just starting the first word is already going to open up is already.

How what why where yeah those like yeah or even you can do like if this then that what do you think about that are like if you're going to ask a yes no question.

You know did you enjoy the addition just throw on a wire at the end.

Did you enjoy the addition why.

But even that's like challenging right like do you think we're meant to be together you're asking your relationship.

Why throw that at the end if you have to but you can ask a better question is like at what moments do you feel we're meant you know.

At what what moments do you feel we're meant to be together and what moments you feel we're not and why do you think what's the relationship between the two what do you feel is relationship.

So so that's one is like what words are you starting with the other one is just adding the word feel.

Or if you have to think and I say feel because it goes to the heart think is up to the mind but just by putting those in you're giving them permission to articulate their subjective experience.

Right so you know in a relationship like.

Why do we fight so much which is not a well constructed question but let's just take that example why do we fight so much and it's not a well constructed question because.

All the answers that that question bags are like pretty negative.

Why do we fight so much Kevin why do we fight so much and that's an objective statement about a subjective feeling sure exactly.

So if I instead say hey and I'm putting you in a position of power because now you're going to say well we fight so much because of this and that I go wait that's not true and now all of a sudden we're leaving but if it's a Kevin why do you feel we fight so much or why do you think we fight so much.

That question is inviting your subjective experience which I can't really confront because it's your subjective experience.

So just by asking do you feel or do you think to a question already make creates a space for less confrontation.

So then the question is as the one receiving the answer can you sit in the discomfort of that answer and receive it.

Because if I'm asking you hey why do we why do you feel we fight so much and you say well to pass because you cut me off your razor voice every time we talk and you talk really fast and you're very judgmental.

Man I got to take that you know and that's an active vulnerability on my side if I don't get defensive and like jump in and cut you off and instead I sit back and like okay thanks for that.

But just adding the words do you think or do you feel to a question creates it now I'm not putting you the objective arbiter of truth but this is your subjective experience.

And there's there's more room for you to articulate that and for me to acknowledge you.

Well we're at the heart of my work but this isn't my interview it's yours so we'll address that later I want to ask you this this is for you personally.

Yeah and I don't know there's not many people I could ask this because this is not a common understanding that what we're talking about here you okay I'm going to put you so let's say that there's an individual.

And they have tenor interactions with you ten interactions with somebody else.

They have ten interactions with me and ten interactions with someone else okay same kind of question the other person ask them hey how was the audition how was work those binary questions yes no questions.

You on the other hand are asking these how what why where how did you feel how did you experience where as I feel those are you're causing them.

To enter into their own self discovery and then you're getting to share in that.

The dynamic that that person subconsciously experiences between the two people what I am experiencing I want to see what you feel is.

The benefit of the connection that that person feels with me as the catalyst for their ten times of self discovery what I'm experiencing as I watch us with family friends kids whatever is.

I don't know better terms and to say I think that their connection with me maybe it's trust maybe it's because they've gotten intimate I don't know but I'm just watching it increase.

And I don't know how to define it all yet but I'm assuming you have experienced a similar thing with your own impact in people's lives.

100% 100% happens all the time we see in the end every time we film we put people we just filmed in Orleans about three weeks ago.

We filmed 20 couples in three days.

Ten of those pairs flew in we don't pay anyone to be on the end ever.

We'll pay for it's a documentary project.

Ten pairs flew in from around the country.

Ten pairs flew in from around the country to participate.

At this point I think they play the games they've seen the videos and I think they know that there is a catholic experience that happens when you step into that space.

And we know that also because that's what they tell us after every time they participate you know after every production is just such a hide because everyone comes out different than they go in.

Because they're in that space of conversing with one of the relationships and deepening it and so that I've seen that firsthand.

Then we are doing at Dartmouth there's a department called the consortium of interacting minds.

And they're studying as a woman named Emma Templeton, Luke Chang and Talia Wheatley.

And they're studying the end both like what happens to a human being who's watching two other people connect.

So they put them in the FMRI machine and they're looking at our videos and they're watching like what happens in the brain, what happens to the body, how do they feel when they're watching other people connect.

And what happens when two people play they put these kind of brain, the helmets on that kind of monitor not quite as deep as FMRI machine but can tell surface level things.

We're in the brain and one of the things that they found in another study as I understand it because they're studying the frontal lobe of the brain which is the most difficult because that's a sense making part of the brain.

What makes sense in the world and you know if you say the word love and I say this word love it's different than that's going both saying the word blue.

We can kind of correlate blue to another you know or we can say up or down or we both can point that's up and that's down when we say love it's subjective.

How does it feel to you might feel different to me so in the front of our brain is the sense making thing function of the brain and so how do you track an objective truth to the subjectivity of each of our sense making right.

Right and what they found is that when we collectively make sense of things through conversation.

We feel a deeper connection to one another.

That's the research that they found what are them and one example they had was like why do we gossip and I don't remember the which professors were on that paper but I saw you know they have all these big beautiful posters when you're walking through their hallways of like the different studies in one of them so why do we gossip.

And they've found from their research that we gossip because we're true in our gossip we're trying to make sense of the world of the world you know Jimmy I didn't like it when Jimmy did that you know it's kind of a prick how did you feel about it well you know it's not so bad really you don't think it's so bad so we're making sense of the world through conversation and at the end of that experience.

We actually feel more connected why because through both of us having conversations we've kind of adjusted both our sense making views of the world and kind of come to a place that's more cohesive and together and integrated and because of that you and I feel strongly more connected.

But what's happening today society that we're spending so much time on our phones but we're not having conversation with other people just again echoing back in our own silos that we're not having those experiences of actually conversing with other people maybe a little bit uncoverable conversations and there when that happens you feel a little bit deeper connection.

Man we could do another show just on that I'm enamored in researching just the power of that our language doesn't just communicate it creates our experience it create we are creating our experience so in our what I see you doing is you're helping people with the right questions to create this experience together I I read in your book to pass it was

it was a couple that was it was right the beginning I think couple that was married and you know just showcase the questions it was asked in the tears and the whatnot and the one guy said

and they're not even charging us for this therapy session you know there's there's my inquiry here that not to pit this against therapy necessarily but from a couples I mean that's really your focus is is couple of things

whether married or should be significant other or parent child but intimate relationships let's call it yeah it's it's not it's not just couples it's anybody who's in an intimate relationship who's like that you care about that you love so

so we do a lot of couples but we do friends family kids in the parents yeah tell me and again I'm not I'm not saying this to counter it against therapy but to say I can tell you the difference tell me here's a difference here's a difference

I mean my god knows I've been to a lot of therapy I go love therapy in the book I talk about the one couples therapy I went with with the person I was going to propose to fiance and you know we left that session knowing that we're not going to stay together

so I do find that there's therapy that's very very helpful especially when you need a guide you need a guide to create the space to unravel something and pull the threads apart so you can look at them and

but here's the thing you're in a couple therapy you're both looking at the therapist so you're what you're training is that the therapist is the referee the therapist is the one asking the questions therapist is the guy

so the muscle of your relationship and speaking to another is not strengthening as you guys as an individuated couple you are being trained by the therapist create this space and sometimes when you're in a highly contentious relationship you need that I'm not to

find that the difference is when you do the end in a couple therapy session both the couples are generally looking at the therapist and kind of talking to each other through the therapist in the end there's no therapist they're looking at each other

and what happens is that the ability to sit in the uncomfortable space the discomfort together is the most important thing because that's where growth is

and it's really important to make a distinction which we often confound between safety and discomfort

if I'm going to go bungee jumping or jump out of a parachute jumping I would think I would hope I'm safe because these guys have done it a million times

they got their 10,000 hours they've checked everything I'm going to be definitely be uncomfortable when I jump off that bungee or jump out of that thing

yeah definitely be uncomfortable but I'm going to be safe because these guys have done it a million times

when I'm done I'm going to feel exhilarated life is going to feel huge it's going to be an amazing experience and I'm going to also know my own ability

to step into discomfort and use courage to face fear how often are we doing that in the relationships in our lives

so we need to create a safe space and be uncomfortable and oftentimes when we're uncomfortable we can found that is not being safe

and I don't exactly know where that line is I can talk to relationships I'm not professional at that so that's definitely room for me to grow

and someone else to speak on but sometimes the idea not sometimes often what we want to do is create a safe space

where you do feel uncomfortable because that's opportunities that's your edge where you can grow

and what's beautiful for me is that when people do the end what they're practicing is sitting in that discomfort together

and holding that space of discomfort together versus having to rely on a therapist to hold that space

and there's two different meanings and I don't think it's either or and I don't think one is better they're just for different functions

and I just think this is a different offering than therapy and I've done both I've done the end and I've done therapy

and I'm not dissuading therapy by any means but I just think there's something about sitting and looking your partner in the eye

and handling their discomfort and speaking about the questions instead of being guided to the therapist.

I think and I want to ask a question on the safe space before I do that though I do want to say in this show I am not go I mean here's the book beside me

12 questions for love I'm not going to go to any of those questions so folks go buy the book one or what are the other options they have like the cards and what not.

Yeah we have card games you know skin deep calm slash shop finest in the Amazon too we have about 18 editions of the card games

for all kinds of relationships we even have a self deck and the skin deep calm yes that we have digital toolkits

where there's like sequence questions for certain scenarios to help you with that's good place you know.

Well so there's to go get the questions which is probably going to be the easiest thing for most people in the book you do go through how to create what makes a good question

how to create a safe space to have conversations deep listen you go through all those things and so there's my recommendation and my directive for everybody

right here though in the time that we have one of the things that you said in how to create a safe space to have conversations

what you were just talking about is let go of any agenda so to pass that is a hot spot for me because I feel that our primary purpose to communicate

anything other than just you know the mailman came and you're just informing somebody even there there's a motive for telling somebody

otherwise you wouldn't when I open my mouth or take my fingers to type and communicate anything to somebody else I have a motive there's some reason otherwise I would not do it

and in that motive is generally and this is where I'm asking for your input I tend to think I don't know if I can do it without a bias without an agenda

now can I consciously set that off and try to be open yes but my struggle is the ability for us to either not have a bias

or is it just the awareness of I do and I'm not going to function from that thoughts

totally name the bias

right name it as you name it you're like listen I'm coming to this conversation and I think I know the solution

and I'm also noticing that I'm really angry and but I want to actually have a conversation

because I want to see what else is possible but I'm just acknowledging I haven't slept I'm angry and have bias about this thing

but I could be wrong that's why like I'm open to having this conversation and I want to have it

so you're already naming the elephant in the room you're naming the agenda that you have behind your mind

because often what that does is that it removes the other person from having to think about what's really going on in Kevin

yeah right and that creates a space in which we can both step forward

if you come up to me and you're like to pass

gosh why why were you late to work or what you know why do you speak to me this way

why did you tell my daughter that I'm before I go into answering like wait wait wait where's Kevin coming from

yeah what happened what is he upset about I don't really know what's behind that and then I have to

now I'm already in defensive posture so I'm stepping back and I'm trying I might not even answer you directly

because I'm trying to figure out where's his coming from so instead you say hey I just heard this and I'm

below you tell me your intention which is differently the agenda the agenda is where you want to end up

that's good the intention is where you begin and when you want to when you want to have a conversation

to connect to people to strengthen your relationship to make it more is it to make it more fulfilling

you want to go together so you need a state where you're beginning from so that you invite them to come

and join you or find the beginning point together

so even if you have an agenda that you want to get to by stating your intention like hey I do want to get there

but I don't even know if that's right I think it is I'm pretty sure but you know what I've been wrong before

and that's why I'm in relationship with you because maybe you're right maybe I'm wrong let's talk about it

I can't make a decision alone there's not a dictatorship so could you talk about it then they know

well he kind of have so it's like stating your intention creates a space and invites them to start

from the start same starting point instead of oftentimes we don't talk about our agenda

but it's intrinsic in the tone of voice it's intrinsic in the question that we ask

so then they're wondering about the agenda instead of actually having a conversation to explain it

because you're not inviting them to begin with you

so I do that a lot I'll just I'm looking for an answer I mean this is part of my life I am I'm asking a question

but I'm doing it for an agenda because I'm trying to figure something out or make a case for this

and I'll share something get the feedback I do a lot of what's that messages so I'm you know

sitting in a five minute audio and then I'll get a five minute audio back and realize real quick

a crap I didn't really share the context and their answer wasn't in the same

okay go back and I'm so sorry here's the context or my intention I'll start using the word intention

more and even the bias I found myself in trying to be more aware

go okay so you're asking me about X first off let me state I really care about this

and I really want X to be true I can't prove it I don't know but I want that

so just know the bias there's the flavoring you're going to get as I try to unbiased me

as much as I can share whatever and I feel like the pressure goes off for both of us

because you're right I'm sitting there and listen to somebody now

and as I'm more and more aware I'm thinking I'm not I can't even hear what they're saying

because I'm wondering what their motive is or it's apparent you're you're talking and telling and telling

but it's obvious what you want why you just state it and save us some time

right yeah I mean one thing I've learned from studying philosophy is

it's really helpful to look at an idea as an object or even a relationship

or a dynamic as an object so you can look from all the directions up down

but most importantly it's not in you it's separate from you

so that you can look at it and have a little bit more practicing the discomfort of looking at things

you're practicing this sitting discomfort because you're moving that identity as though it's me

right so sometimes you say well I'm a I'm really angry I'm an angry guy

no no no I'm feeling angry and oftentimes I turn to anger quickly

but that doesn't mean you're an angry guy because if you say you're an angry guy

you're always going to be angry almost just to find the anger

and you're no these are feelings so you're making that separation

which enables you to look at the things that's read the object

and maybe therefore it's easier to see it from the other person's point of view

or maybe change your point of view because you're seeing it from other people

yeah I think yeah that's what I've learned in the philosophy of watching that

and I think that applies also to I mean you had Terry real from us

I don't know a few months back which is amazing that book I loved it it's amazing

but I think he speaks about it's not just you it's us it's us that we're working on

and if we can remove the us and look at it objectively as an us

we can work on it in a better way right it's something that we can construct an approach

it creates a little bit more distance we can see it in the bigger picture

okay you mentioned point of view a couple times

and again I'm not going to go through every aspect of the book

but you have a section in there on what makes a good question

though my temptations to qualify that because I think I've been skilled at asking good questions

but now I'm I'm looking to ask connecting questions and that's right

you know I mean if you're looking at people with as you said an intimate relationship

what makes a good question within an intimate relationship

your first point is it should have a connected point of view

explain that for me

okay so I'll just quickly go there's five aspects make a really quality question

yeah well because that's a quality question in in the context of a relationship

right whether it's at work or it's a your family or friends anything that you're invested in

one I'll get to the connected last one and we started it don't ask a binary question

yeah don't you know don't ask questions that ends with a yes no

right ask question that creates a space for exploration this conversation

would you get I want to say the easy hack on that is you mentioned them it's how

I don't want to just start yeah why yeah you're right go away when

to don't ask a question that begs an answer that's disempowering and negative

why do we fight so much right

a third one so that's two empowering third one would be if we're going to go the

connected one I'll go the connected one because

the connected one is really interesting is that this is what many people miss

if I ask you Kevin what do you think what do you think about love

and your partner says hey Kevin what do you think about love

and the barista starbucks goes hey Kevin what do you think about love

your answer those three questions are going to be the same

I think about love this in that that if I ask it should partner ask it if the

police ask it but if we change it and make it connected that reflects our

relationship by saying hey Kevin how do you think we see love similarly

and differently if I ask you that and your partner asks you that and the barista

asks you that you're going to answer those questions in totally different ways

why because the question it can knowledge is the unique person and the unique

relationship who's asking it

love it right so oftentimes we're asking questions like hey tell me something

about your answer that you know you're thinking you can talk for a half an hour

but it has nothing to do with me yeah said you can say like hey man what happened

the day that you think would surprise me most

see you're taking me into account right what happened to you today that

you think would surprise me most if I say what happened to you today that

surprised you most and five people ask you that question you say man it was like

I was you know I was on the hike and I saw a snake surprised me scared

scare me but if five people different people ask you hey Kevin what happened

you day that you think surprised me most maybe one of those people that's

surprised a snake because he knows is on the trail of time so you think of it

something else that question acknowledges the person you're with and the

relationship with in that moment in time and also invite them because they're

part of the response you're acknowledging like that your relationship with that

so just making that little tweak like does this question if everybody can answer

this question if if if a number of people ask me this question and I can answer

it the same way it's not a connective question if three if a number of people

ask me this question and it's different for every person because that's all

it's like then you know it's a connective question I want I want I'm gonna

I'm gonna leverage you being here okay this is this is clearly selfish

because I'm talking about the benefit that I am experiencing for me by

simply asking somebody not how it was but how did you experience it but that's

not necessarily a connected question what exactly that's an easy hack for me

to help them discover themselves then I get to go on that journey so I love that

I don't even like the word hack I just don't know a better word but it's but

great but if you ask your daughter hey how did you what did you experience today

that you think I'd appreciate the most what do you experience the addition

that you think would surprise me that that I would learn from what did you

experience today that you think would probably scare me you know scare me

tremendously but you faced it right then all of a sudden it's it's not

necessarily about her edition it's about your relationship it's about how

she sees you hey man I'm not doing that you just gave me that's worth

send me an invoice that's what everyone says that they do the end that's

why he said it's better than psychotherapy you know like you talked about yeah

yeah I mean what a simple shift it if these things remind me of I remember

when my former wife one time you know said I'm reading this thing on attachment

and it says that when the kid what comes in with the but you know banged up

knee instead of just Russian for the band-aids and cleaning it up just give him a

hug that it will help connection like seriously all right well so what

tries easy easy fix I don't feel anything different about the kid but I'm just

acting different and seeing the results slowly smoke just a little wow a

little shift in this yeah so here I am thinking or feeling the benefit of

asking the person you know how they experience it but now if I connect

myself to it if it's a relationship I'm looking to connect with which

why would I be in a relationship I didn't want to it's just a shift just

include me and I also also what happens is that now you're also more

interested in the answer oh my gosh intrinsically right because it's a

reflection of you and reflection of your connection so all of a sudden you're

more invested in the answer because it reflects you and now both of

your now both your now your conversation is that much more elevated

because it's a reflection of your judgments of each other of your of

your connection your relationship and therefore also it deepens

it because you're feeling the relationship more like you're asking your

daughter how is your addition it's about her experience great wonderful

but how what was your addition like that you think would scare me now it's

about her reflection of what she thinks cares you I'm a hundred

percent interested in her answer yeah okay I and it also and it also

brings you know she's making sense of her addition she's and she's

also making her sense of your fear she's also you were making sense

of your fear you're making sense and in that sense making together

brings you closer gives you a sense of feeling more connected yeah you're

you're including let's see how would we say it I'm going from not just

helping her with her herself discovery but now it's a mutual yeah discovery

we get to do yeah and I think I mean look I'm not saying you do this for

all the questions I just think that's a helpful tool you know to

like bring yourselves closer to to pull in the heartstrings of your

relationship well I appreciate you saying saying that because I'm finding

myself having to watch out a little bit that I'm not capped in intensity on

every communication that I also let her just sit there and I just tell me about

the you know the day and whatever and I'm not trying to pull everything

back I mean the fact that your daughter when you told the story she open

up and was talking that is a reflection of clearly a really wonderful

relationship you have because we all know how difficult it is to get kids

to open up especially teenagers you know tell you not give you one word

answers so I I want to testify honestly not to myself but to these

these methods because I'm seeing I have a 16 year old daughter and a well

no she's 17 she's 17 she's 17 in my son my other son next to her just

turned 16 and I I could not have a more I've never I've got a lot of

kids so I've experienced this you know the connectedness I would say the

trust and even they're just affection wanting to be with me and you know on

the couch they're all over me and it doesn't really it doesn't really

relate to who they are to everyone it's what I'm seeing the connection with

me and I'm watching this unfold and thinking it's because of what

it's because of what you're doing it's it's asking these questions and

the questions by proxy construct this opportunity yeah now it there

is still I think I do is on looking at you know people hearing this

tell me about what can not sure how to phrase the question kind

of what can derail this because I would I could see people hearing this

and go man it sounds great but I don't it takes a lot of courage how's

that well that okay so the fourth one about walkers like the question is

offer a question as a gift not as an attack which is part of creating

the space so it's much easier to shake open palm then it is a finger

pointing at you so if you come at them with a question that you know it's

attacking because you want a certain agenda you want a certain response you

want to certain you want to get to a certain space you're not really

inviting them to shake your hand you're not really inviting them into

space explore and I think that's where sometimes even in the book

right sometimes people don't I mean I can tell you people my own family don't

have the conversations it's probably why I ended up making the end was

because of my own lack of sense of intimacy and connection with people in my

family and they don't want to have the conversation and fair enough I

think you have to invite people into a space and if they don't want to step

in you know you let go and I think I think the best way to do that is

that because if you're inviting them to play a part of that is what I say

let go is that part of that is if they're willing to step into it you have to be

willing to accept the answers they give well can I ask there on that in

inviting someone in that there are times and I imagine you've seen this

acutely and many times where there is sometimes you realize or they

realize that there's either one not enough interest or there's two too

much threat right okay yeah that mean they feel I mean there's someone

that like for instance having these conversations are so uncomfortable

that they feel is emotionally abusive right that's the term they use

this and I have that in my family so then you're like then you're like

okay that's I have to step away but let's acknowledge that I want to have

these kind of conversations you you you experience them as emotionally

they're clearly I'm going to step away but just so you know that means I am

going to be very muted and I basically you're not going to see all of

me and our relationship will be quite reserved surface level definitely

not resilient because we can't go deep and definitely not fulfilling and

not really joyful because I'm just giving you five percent of me and

we're talking about simple basic things the weather and some whatever we want

that doesn't actually speak about our relationship and how we're experiencing

life as human beings and this experience called life.

Tell me I'm thinking about myself here again that if this had if I had

been sitting in one of your chairs across from my former spouse I don't

know two years ago three years ago five years ago I don't know I'm concerned

that aside from some other issues maybe but there's a degree of my own

incompetence well let's say emotional unintelligence as we got in when we first

started counseling there were so many times when the counselor would ask

XYZ and I go I I just don't know yeah if there's practice okay

practice is practice right so how often like we all go not we all if you

want to be in good shape and you want to do the Twitter fans or you want to do the big

hike you're going to go exercise if you want to keep your body trim whatever

it is long life you'll go to the gym if you want to keep your car maintained

you're going to get checked once a year right how often are we checking the

maintenance and practicing our own relationship yeah yeah right how do we

even do that well here's how we do it we create the space where you don't have

an agenda you have an intention you create a space where it's clear what

we're permissible and not permissible to do meaning you don't cook in the

bedroom and you don't sleep in the kitchen you know what you're doing in the

kitchen you know you're doing in the bedroom so how do you create a space

where like hey this is the space where we have these kind of conversations because

we created is permissible when I was living in New York whenever I needed to

like get away from the noise and everything on Mont Street just south of

Houston there was a beautiful big church and I would go in it and I'd sit

there because it was so quiet and everybody knows why is it quiet because

that's what's expected you know not during a church service open it all

times you go in it's quiet and it's expected you anybody walking in notes

what so what what are the spaces in the home of a

relationship that we know what are permissible and not how do we create those

spaces how do we get the spaces that we're like we're going to practice here or

what I call emotional articulation on emotional intelligence where I know

how you're feeling around feeling is the ability to articulate it right because

like when you're sitting in the therapy and you're in the couples and they're

like well how do you feel like it's not like you didn't have feelings you just

do not articulate yeah and and how are you ever going to know how to

articulate if you don't practice it and we're going to practice it we're going to

practice training exercise or writing the bike or fixing your car you know

you're taking the maintenance shop you go to the gym right where do we go

what where the space that we create to practice our relationship that's what

we need to do that's well that's the opportunity that I'm offering

to my book and to our work right and it could be as easy as a card game

matter of fact I'm going to send you if you want I want to send you the healing

deck because those questions just those question beg answers that bring

healing thank you I will happily receive yes please I have healing I have

healing more healing in front of me and on that note actually do that because

my I was going to wrap us up and just say will you agree to a part two oh

man I've done I want to I want to hit another tangent with you and yeah

and I also want to let you go to bed because it's what three o'clock

there now three 15

so past thank you thank you Kevin thank you so to joy such a gift you have I

mean I get to employ this today I get to employ some of these immediately

and I'm exciting myself and grateful so thank you for taking the time in the

middle of your night across the world absolutely for just the work that

you're doing I am a fan and now follower so my man thank you to pass

oh thank you thanks for joining us in the discussion that again is to pass

a thesis and the book that I was referencing 12 questions for love a guide

to intimate conversations and deeper relationships and you can also find

offerings to get those questions that you can use in your own life if you go

to the skin deep dot com and YouTube go to YouTube type in the skin

deep and you'll probably find yourself in meshed there for a long time as

you watch people truly connect so till next time here's the you and me

making better meaning in our lives and experiencing the miracle of living

yeah

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